WEBVTT - AI Bias, DEI and Tech Law w/ Bärí A. Williams 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:08.400 Afro tech World, the Child has managing partner and precursor 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:11.480 Vengures is on the virtual stage talking with Lisa Watson, 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:15.280 co founders CEO Squad and it comes to no surprise 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:17.760 that when you're investing early in the startup life cycle, 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:21.120 many will find out what they originally started building has 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:25.160 to morph into something new. What does Child think about 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:28.159 this pivot? Does he get concerned when he invested in 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:32.320 one thing and it becomes anohing? Yeah, the pivoting question 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:34.479 is a good one. So I do care about the 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:38.160 initial idea. I I know some precedency investors who don't 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:40.159 care about the initial idea. They're just like, this is 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:43.280 an amazing person that The challenge we have is that 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:46.120 most of the companies we've acted are raising five two 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:48.080 million dollars. It's not a lot of money in the 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:52.360 grand scheme of things. So if your first original idea 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:55.680 is really off base, you might not have enough time 0:00:55.760 --> 0:01:00.440 to actually pivot to a new idea. Pivot are pretty 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:03.080 common for us to precede normally because we're backing somebody 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:06.320 pre product with the hypothesis, and sometimes you roll out 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:09.120 the hypothesis in the form of a product and it 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:11.200 turns out that the market responds to it in a 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:16.240 very different way than you had expected. So whenever that happens, 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:19.160 I always try to take founders through a set of 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:23.440 questions to figure out did we get something wrong about 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:28.600 our initial hypothesis, And sometimes it happens. Sometimes the hypothesis 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:31.920 was correct, but the market is less interesting than we 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:34.039 thought once we get interest. So, hey, there's people who 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:36.560 want to buy this product. They like it, song to 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:38.880 them is kind of a pain. Servicing them's kind of 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:42.240 a pain. There's a market here, but not one that 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:45.360 like we as a company are like super excited to tackle. 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:48.880 And then sometimes you launch it and you go the 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:52.200 product we launched was okay, and it's fine, but in 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:54.760 launching it, we discovered something that we think is way 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:57.880 more interesting. So the way I think about is it's 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:00.840 always okay, I think to of it if you're doing 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:04.600 it from a position of knowledge. What I worry about sometimes, though, 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:07.560 is people who are flailing. They launched a product, it 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:10.080 doesn't work immediately, so they launched another product that doesn't 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:12.680 work immediately. Sometimes you just have to like take a 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:14.640 breath and figure out what did you learn? And sometimes 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:17.520 the answer is the product is right, the market's just 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:19.960 not ready for it. So do we want to hunker 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:22.960 down and be patient and wait for the market to 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:25.440 catch up with what we think or do we want 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:27.640 to just say, hey, you know, we're way too early here. 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:30.240 We should probably abandon this and find something new. So 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:31.760 a lot of what I try to get people to 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:35.400 think through is what did we actually learn from this launch? 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:37.720 What have we actually learned about the customer? And are 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:40.400 we doing this from a position of information and knowledge 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:44.680 and not from a position of like fearer panting. I'm well, Lucas, 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:48.519 this is black tech, free money. I'm going to answer 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:50.680 this you to some of the biggest names somebody brightness, 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:54.160 minds and brilliant ideas. If you black and building simply 0:02:54.280 --> 0:03:02.760 using techis and Chiga back this podcast. This fee Barry 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:06.720 Williams this chief operating officer of Bandwagon, fan club data 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:09.760 and identity analytics tech company focus on the sports and 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:14.160 entertainment space. She's also a diversity inclusion and corporate social 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:18.639 responsibility consultant. Prior to Bandwagon, she held executive roles at 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:22.280 companies like al Turtles, Stuff Up, and Facebook. Bar is 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:25.120 a finger, not a coder, and I wanted to gather 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:27.000 her thoughts on why it seems to be harder for 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:29.720 black people who are non technical roles at companies that 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:33.840 bill tech to see themselves as being in tech. Alternatively, 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:35.960 if we say we work in HR are legal at 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:38.920 a healthcare and energy company, we're much quicker to say 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:42.240 we work in those sectors because there's still some the 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:46.280 mystification that it needs to happen about what building tech means. Yeah, 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:52.240 there probably is um level of disconnect. I guess I 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:55.200 would call it in terms of are you really in 0:03:55.240 --> 0:04:00.200 tech or are you tech? A Jason and I think 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:03.920 I feel like, particularly in my field, like being a lawyer, 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:07.320 I feel like you're still in tech because there are 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:09.680 certain things that you have to do and double check 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.680 in terms and make sure the product doesn't violate any laws, 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:19.200 um that your privacy is kept private, that you know 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:22.440 something doesn't happen where the company ends up getting sued 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:27.039 because of some discriminatory element of what it is that 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:29.720 you created, or even if it's looking at it from 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:34.520 the lens of how inclusive is the product, like kind 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:38.960 a blind person useless. So if the answers know, you 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:41.960 may be opening yourself up not just two lawsuits. But 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.160 people also neglect the fact that, you know, a tech 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:49.160 company can do something and get horrible pr and get dragged, 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:51.320 and that has absolutely nothing to do with whether the 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.200 product was good, bad, or and different. It could be 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:58.080 you had a really terrible marketing campaign, but if you 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.160 might have had a black marketer in that room, they 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:03.680 would have told you that that Ancestry DNA where a 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.920 slave runs away with her masters, not necessarily the best 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:10.760 way to get us sign up for Ancestry DNA care. So, 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:15.160 you know, sometimes it's about saving the company from itself, 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:19.719 even if you don't think that that is a an 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:22.440 adequate tech role. And I'd say that because I'm married 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:25.320 to a product manager, so he is very in and 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:29.599 of tech and not tech adjacent. So but I still 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.360 don't think that, you know, I don't think that those 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:34.960 roles are tech adjacent. They're just as important to keep 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:38.239 the company going is anything else. Do you think there's 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:41.440 any level of feeling not included because we may not 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:43.839 be able to code if we work at a tech 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.800 company and we can't say we work in tech. Yeah, 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:48.800 I definitely think people will look at it that way. 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:50.320 There are lots of people who look at it that 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:52.159 way in a sense that oh, well, you're not really 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:55.680 you're not really in the industry because you can't write 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:57.760 a line of code. I sure can't, but I could 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:00.599 tell you. You show me how what you've written and 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:02.520 how it works, and I can tell you whether that's 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:09.960 legal or not valuable. So I rebuke that whole idea 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:12.120 in the name of Jesus, But I understand that some 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:15.279 people don't. UM. But I do think that there's definitely 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:18.040 kind of a there's definitely a hierarchy, and people look 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:20.800 at it. The people who can code, or the people 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:23.400 who are product managers, are the people who are product designers. 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:26.360 Those are the people that are really in tech. All 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:29.960 your you know, your g n A functions, you're legal, 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:36.120 your sales, your marketing UM hr dn I. They look 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:39.119 at that as like it's not really you're not really 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:43.479 moving the product forward. You know, you've done a lot 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:45.960 of advocacy for being in the room and trying to 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:47.800 hold the door open for other people to be able 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:51.279 to get in the room. But how can you admonish 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:57.080 other folks to both strategically and successfully advocate for having 0:06:57.120 --> 0:07:00.760 more faces, you know, brown faces, black faces in the room. 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:03.479 UM when everybody don't want us in the room. So 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:06.080 how how can we do that and not feel like 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:10.800 we're in a precarious situation, you know, putting ourselves in jeopardy. Yeah, 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:13.720 and I think that they're I wouldn't even say that. 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:15.640 A lot of people don't want us. I said, most 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:18.440 of them probably don't want us in the room because 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:21.000 we're gonna point out things that they don't see because 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:23.960 a lot of these people their coding and building products 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:27.440 that it's it's solely focused on their lens and view 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:31.720 of the world, which is not the global population. Sorry 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:35.000 to say that is not what the global population looks like. 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:39.680 Y'all are actually in the minority. So they don't want 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:42.240 us in the room. But I think what's important is, 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:45.280 and I always lead from a diversity standpoint, is if 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:48.640 you tell people how much money they can make or 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:51.200 how much money they will lose, that is when they 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:54.360 will listen. That is when they will care. They don't 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.800 want to hear like I never ever start a conversation 0:07:57.880 --> 0:07:59.640 with oh, well it's the right thing to do. Well, 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:01.360 I have hell, we all know it's the right thing 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.000 to do. But if people really cared about doing the 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:07.520 right thing, it would have already been done. So but 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.320 if I tell you, if you put out this type 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:14.160 of marketing campaign with these visuals and this narrative, you're 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:16.640 gonna get dragged on Twitter. That ad is gonna have 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:19.440 to come down. You will have lost five thousand dollars. 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:22.520 And however, many men and woman hours creating this ad. 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:27.280 So there's that angle. Or it's if you make it 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:30.120 a product that is inclusive and has multiple use cases 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:34.080 and functions and also maybe has an audio function, has 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:36.400 a function that you know will allow that to have 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:39.760 a blind person use it, you're gonna gain that much 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:42.880 more traction because now more people can use your product. 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:49.599 So that's more revenue. You know, you testified before Congress 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:55.000 about AI bias, artificial intelligence bias, and the congressman asked 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:57.640 you about how that could be. You know, when you're 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:01.400 just developing this this this software, and I guess some 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:04.000 people might imagine that it's not inherently racist. It's just 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:06.880 cold and right. But you know, can you speak to 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:11.360 what's happening with the development of AI that should be 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:14.360 potentially cause a concern for black and brown people as 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:19.360 we get more into a world that relies on artificial intelligence. Yeah, 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:22.000 And when he asked me that question, I kind of 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:26.360 I just remember sitting in church with my mom and 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:28.320 she would just pinch me and say, fix your face, 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:31.040 Fix your face. Because I was like, how, what do 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.320 you mean? How is it? How could it possibly be 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:37.320 inherently biases code? Well, who makes the code? People? It's 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:41.480 unconscious biases, Like it's not like the code magically came 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:44.960 from the sky. A lot of things that go into 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:48.360 making these algorithms that will tell you your credit score 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:52.480 or your availability for a certain mortgage amount. It's based 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:55.760 on stale data. So the example that I gave was, 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:58.520 if you are basing this off of data from nineteen 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:02.600 sixty five, well, they were still red lining in black neighborhoods, 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:05.960 saying we couldn't having restrictive covenants and deeds and said 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:08.679 we couldn't buy in certain areas. So if you're using 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:11.719 that data, it's going to be inherently biased because it's 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:15.199 based on racist laws. And so if you are not 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:19.360 updating that data or using additional data to corroborate what 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:23.920 you have already coded, then you're doing it wrong. And 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:26.679 the way that the easy summation of that for me 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:31.520 is who fact checks the fact checkers because in this instance, 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:35.000 the people that are coding the algorithms that will determine 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:39.360 your credit worthiness will also determine um. They also use 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:44.120 this same kind of functionality in policing algorithms to tell 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:47.520 police where they should go on certain times of days. 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:51.679 And it's based off of previous crime data history. It's 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:55.680 based off of moon phases, it's based off temperature records, 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:59.240 it's based off of like randomness. So you're just gonna say, 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:01.800 because in nineteen eighty five it was a d eight 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:03.959 degrees in East Oakland, So now we need to send 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:08.200 twenty cars to patrol there tonight. Yeah. Like oh, and 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:11.920 it's also based on sports team records, So I guess 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:16.200 how do you gauge that? Because how many cop cars 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:17.679 do you send in Order Dame when they win a 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:21.040 big game and those kids storm the field versus the 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.240 Warriors lose and you have had a bajillion cars around 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:29.000 the coliseum, So like, how do you gauge? And a 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:31.960 lot of that is gonna be you know, unconscious bias. 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:34.040 You're gonna send the twenty cop cars so where the 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.880 majority of the black people are, but you know, those 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:39.280 white kids storm in the field. Oh, they're just celebrating. 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:42.440 Can you enlighten things on fire? Can you? Can you 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:44.800 talk to me like a little bit about what's what's 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:49.200 happening in the actual technology that allows it to be biased, 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:52.720 like seeing certain faces versus other faces, thinking some people 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:56.800 look at like versus other people looking at like. Oh, well, 0:11:56.840 --> 0:11:59.240 if you're talking about like the unconscious bias and their 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:02.760 actual test of that where you have to decide and 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:05.360 that you get like I think three seconds to scroll through, 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:08.920 um and I've taken this course. You have three seconds 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:12.600 to decide if this person is like a good person 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:17.760 or a bad person. And it's interesting because you could see, 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:22.319 you know, seek men with with their hair wrapped, or 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:24.679 you could see a black woman with a natural hair, 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:27.320 or your who's dark skin, or you could see a 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.559 lighter skin black woman with straight hair, or you see 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:35.760 a white lady, or you see a dark skin black man, 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:38.040 and you literally just have to press the button and 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:43.080 figure out, oh is this person not sure? And even 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:44.960 just like not just looking at their face, but also 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:47.600 the clothing. Some of them had on college sweatshirts, which 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:50.320 is gonna give you a whole difference view of that person, right, like, 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.880 so maybe I might be afraid of your face, but 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:56.120 if I see the fact that you're wearing a shirt 0:12:56.120 --> 0:13:00.360 and says Stanford, maybe I'm less afraid. And it's little 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:03.840 subtle cues like that too. So you you're dealing with 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:07.120 people who are taking those tests and to some extent 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:11.120 are failing them. Uh, and those are the people who 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:14.480 are actually doing the coding. And it's then understanding that 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:18.240 even little things like the hand dispensers in um in 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:21.320 public bathrooms, like you go to the airport and I 0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:24.559 have to stick my hand under that thing three times 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:26.920 before SoC will come out. And it's because it was 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:32.840 designed for people with lighter skin hands and little simple 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.040 things where it's not that you think people are doing 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:39.520 it on purpose, it's just that is what they're used to, 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:42.280 and so that is how they design the product, and 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:45.480 the same thing is transferred to code. Well, if this 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:47.680 is the data that I've been given in order to 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:51.760 base your credit score off of, and this is historical 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:54.920 data of what the credit scores and certain based on 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:58.800 your zip code, based on your age, if this is 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:02.320 the information that we've had for the last ten years, well, 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:06.320 then that's what I'm gonna use so we've already established 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:07.960 in this conversation that you know, they don't want to 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:09.560 send the room in the first place, you know, in 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:11.520 order to the people that you're advocating for, they don't 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:14.000 want to send the room. And then at the same time, 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:18.360 having us not in the room causes these biased situations 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:20.680 to proliferate. You know, if to use a big word, 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:23.920 not respecting the probably a bigger word than necessary. But 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:27.680 so the million dollar question is is how do we 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:30.400 get more of us in the room in order to 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:33.400 be able to solve these problems for our future. I 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:37.200 think the answer to that is probably twofold one. It's 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:40.800 going to take people willing to bring people into the 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:44.800 rooms that are not carbon copies of themselves. And I 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:48.000 say that because I think the status something like fifty 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:53.360 three of tech employees are referrals. And let's just say, 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:59.480 like if the company is probably six white males and 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:03.120 the other is a mix of everybody else. But also 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:06.440 in that forty percent would be predominantly Asian. Well, that 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:11.840 leaves us with at about probably five at best. And 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:13.520 I know the one thing that I did when I 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:16.080 worked at Facebook is every single person that I referred 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:19.920 was a black woman. Even when I left, I still 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:24.000 would float their resumes, give them to people who I 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:28.240 knew were allies internally, and the good news is they 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:32.160 all got hired. But it's because I knew who to 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:35.320 pick and choose in terms of like advocating for them internally. 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:37.800 So that's one thing that it's hard to It's like 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.320 nine times I'd attend if you have an internal advocate, 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:44.320 that will get you farther down the line, But because 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.560 there are a few of us there, it's hard to 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:49.240 find an internal advocate. So usually it's a friend of 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:52.280 a friend or somebody from that went to your college 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:55.160 or your law school or your business school or what 0:15:55.280 --> 0:16:00.080 have you, and doesn't always have to be a a 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:02.680 internal advocate, but somebody who knows how to navigate that 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:06.920 system and we'll we'll champion it for you. And I 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:11.960 think the other piece to that is also just making 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:16.440 sure that you know if if you get inside, you 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:19.440 have to be to me. I always look at um. 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:23.680 There was a line in my black graduation from Berkeley, 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.800 and I think it was Michael Eric Dyson who gave 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:28.720 the speech, and he always said he at the end 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:32.600 of the speech, he said, be a trojan horse. So 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:35.560 that's kind of how I look at everywhere I go 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:39.680 is And I've seen two types of black people in 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:43.440 these companies. One is the type that's a trojan horse, 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:46.520 and it's gonna hold the door open and advocate for 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:49.320 other people to get inside, or if there are people 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:51.400 already there, you advocate for them to get promoted, or 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.360 you advocate for them to get better work assignments. And 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:56.920 the second type of person I've seen is the type 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:00.160 that wants to be the special Negro snowflake and they 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.640 want to make sure the door slammed because they want 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:05.480 to be one of a few. Like that makes you 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:10.560 feel special. Now that doesn't make me feel special, but 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:12.880 but for some of those people, it's that is their 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:16.720 calling card. That so the less the less of us 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:20.040 that are there, the more special they feel. And so 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:22.119 they want to make sure that the door is shut. 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:26.040 And I have even seen d I practitioners like that, 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:29.080 which to me is like, how do you have this job? Well, 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:31.240 I mean, I know how you have a job because 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:35.840 you're gonna be a yes person for the majority. But 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:40.760 it just seems like a a cruel bait and switch. 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:44.480 But I would say it's it's gonna be that twofold. 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:47.040 You have to have people that are on the inside 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:49.560 that are gonna be trojan horses, and you also have 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.400 to make sure that you have internal advocates and work 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:56.280 your network. You know, tech is still, you know, a 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.280 very new industry, may in may in the mainstream context. 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.359 You know, if you think fifteen years ago, you just 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.480 started to get things like Facebook and etcetera. And then 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:07.879 you know, so let's say let's call it twenty years 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:10.840 that tech has been like in the dominant, you know, 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:16.160 mainstream conversation, there are so many attorneys who maybe work 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:20.080 in real estate law or maybe they work in criminal law, 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:23.400 but they want to be in to this tech thing. 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:29.200 How can they find their way into helping startups? Yeah, 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:34.760 I would say there are lots of startups that um 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:38.840 can't retain large firms. So like if you think of 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:46.439 like a MOFO or Cooley, UM, you know, they just 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:50.159 can't afford the larger companies. And so the answer to 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:54.840 that would be, maybe that person offers them discounted services 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:57.719 just to get the experience to say that they've been 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.919 advising startups or helping startups. I think that's one thing 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:03.440 that actually would be great in terms of bolstering your resume, 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:06.200 and then who knows if that startup actually gets more 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:08.000 funding than you would be the person that they would 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:11.320 end up hiring as their first attorney, whether that's a 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:15.600 general counsel role or some other um. The other thing 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:17.320 you can do is I always tell people to make 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:20.800 your experience analogous to whatever it is that you're applying for. 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:23.400 So people tend to look at resumes and they don't 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:25.959 really or they look at job descriptions rather and they 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:28.840 don't change their resume to fit the narrative of what 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:31.600 the job description is looking for. That is a huge 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:35.359 no no. So for every bullet point that is on 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:39.639 that job description, your resume needs to detail how you 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:43.800 have either done something that is just like that and 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:46.040 here are the results that I got from doing that work, 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:51.400 or it needs to be an analogous argument meaning I 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:54.160 didn't you know, I didn't necessarily do it this way, 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:56.320 but this is something that I did that is very 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:59.040 akin to what it is that you're looking for. And 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:01.960 I don't even I would start off with I haven't 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:05.400 done this. I would just say, you know, in accordance 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:07.800 with you know, X, Y and Z type of experience, 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:11.040 I've done something analogists such as blah blah blah blah blah, 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:14.479 and here are the results from that. So always make 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.720 sure that you are reading the job description and making 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:20.760 sure that your resume lines up with it. A lot 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:23.840 of people simply just send the same generic resume out 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:27.719 over and over again. And also they need to be 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:32.200 mindful that the way the job descriptions are written, it's 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:35.080 you know, sometimes you can't tell what is I bucket 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:37.600 them in three ways something what's a what's a must have? 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:40.480 What is a nice to have? And what is a moonshot? 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:43.600 Like we want you to have these, you know, five 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:46.240 imperative skills. It would be great if you have these 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:48.600 three that are nice to have. And then like also 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:53.720 if you speak Arabic and Japanese like we love it now, 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.360 you probably are going to get that, but the other 0:20:56.400 --> 0:21:01.000 things you probably can. And um also be mindful that 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:03.560 though the words and the phrasings that they're using in 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:06.040 those job descriptions, those are the keywords that they're going 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:09.040 to be searching for in their portal when they're looking 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:12.320 to advance people to screening interviews. And so again, if 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:14.240 you're just sending out a generic resume and it doesn't 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:16.919 have any of those buzzwords in it. There you're not 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:20.199 going to get past the screen. So let's take the 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:23.040 other arguments or the other case to this, and how 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:27.600 does it start up that has potential court an advisor 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:29.480 who may be a lawyer, like how to like what 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:32.200 gets Barri's attention to for you to be an advisor 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:36.280 to my thing? A good idea, Like honestly, I'm not 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:41.320 someone who focuses solely on you know, how how fast 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:43.159 can they go public or how much money can they 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:46.040 make or how much money have they already raised? And 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:49.240 for me it's it's also the journey and like how 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:52.760 passionate are these these people are this team about what 0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:56.720 it is that they're doing. And also I always try 0:21:56.760 --> 0:21:59.440 to ask people, you know, what what is the difference 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:04.800 ferentiation factor between you and your competitors? Because at that point, 0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:07.960 I've probably looked at who who's your competition? How is 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:11.919 this different? Like what what's gonna be the factor that 0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:16.040 gets you noticed and gets you investment dollars and not 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:18.560 crash and burn as opposed to these people who are 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:21.760 already doing something similar may not be exact, but if 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:25.240