1 00:00:15,264 --> 00:00:22,584 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm Sam Tobatchnik, and I wrote the series Looted 2 00:00:22,624 --> 00:00:25,104 Speaker 1: for the Denver Post, and it's the story of the week. 3 00:00:27,304 --> 00:00:29,824 Speaker 1: The one thing that people seem to know about journalism 4 00:00:29,904 --> 00:00:32,304 Speaker 1: is that we're smug jerks. But if they know a 5 00:00:32,384 --> 00:00:36,664 Speaker 1: second thing, it's follow the money. Assuming that all motivations 6 00:00:36,664 --> 00:00:40,424 Speaker 1: are financial is a really stupid simple view of the world. 7 00:00:41,144 --> 00:00:43,344 Speaker 1: Most of what people do is for status, or to 8 00:00:43,424 --> 00:00:47,944 Speaker 1: fit in, or for love. We're complicated, I mean, I 9 00:00:47,984 --> 00:00:50,744 Speaker 1: guess not all that complicated. We basically want status and 10 00:00:50,784 --> 00:00:53,704 Speaker 1: to fit in and love. But that's why I was 11 00:00:53,744 --> 00:00:57,304 Speaker 1: so fascinated by the story of an unlikely Bonnie and Clyde, 12 00:00:57,664 --> 00:01:01,344 Speaker 1: these two people who manufactured a scheme to launder ancient 13 00:01:01,424 --> 00:01:06,224 Speaker 1: Cambodian statues. But here's the thing. They were already rich, 14 00:01:07,144 --> 00:01:10,184 Speaker 1: yet they decided to deplete Cambodia of its ancient treasures. 15 00:01:11,144 --> 00:01:14,704 Speaker 1: Some of their motivations may have been noble, but others 16 00:01:14,744 --> 00:01:24,304 Speaker 1: clearly were not. Writing his hard who's got that kind 17 00:01:24,344 --> 00:01:27,704 Speaker 1: of time when you're already busy trying to be John 18 00:01:27,824 --> 00:01:31,064 Speaker 1: Stein until it turns on a mic? Maybe the twaddles 19 00:01:31,104 --> 00:01:34,064 Speaker 1: and knob Because a journalist Frand has got in that 20 00:01:34,224 --> 00:01:42,744 Speaker 1: dual timetory single story. Just listen to smart people speak conversation. 21 00:01:43,104 --> 00:01:57,744 Speaker 1: Feeling information is a story for decades. A swashbuckling englishman 22 00:01:57,864 --> 00:02:01,384 Speaker 1: named Douglas Latchford and a rich American woman named Emma 23 00:02:01,424 --> 00:02:06,664 Speaker 1: Bunker worked together to sell looted Cambodian antiquities to Western millionaires, 24 00:02:07,304 --> 00:02:10,704 Speaker 1: and they almost got away with it until at the 25 00:02:10,824 --> 00:02:14,384 Speaker 1: very end of their long lives, it all came tumbling down. 26 00:02:15,464 --> 00:02:19,184 Speaker 1: Sam Debachnick wrote a sprawling three part series detailing their 27 00:02:19,224 --> 00:02:22,704 Speaker 1: crimes for the Denver Post. Sam, thank you so much 28 00:02:22,864 --> 00:02:25,944 Speaker 1: for being on our podcast. Thank you for having me. 29 00:02:26,224 --> 00:02:28,544 Speaker 1: This story is about the Bonnie and Clyde of the 30 00:02:28,664 --> 00:02:31,744 Speaker 1: art looting world, and their crimes leave a trail straight 31 00:02:31,784 --> 00:02:35,184 Speaker 1: to the Denver Art Museum. So basically introduce us to them. 32 00:02:35,184 --> 00:02:38,544 Speaker 1: Who's Douglas Latchford. Is he like like a Lawrence of 33 00:02:38,584 --> 00:02:42,144 Speaker 1: Arabia British aristocracy type or is he more like an 34 00:02:42,184 --> 00:02:46,144 Speaker 1: Indiana Jones adventurer? Like, what's that guy? Like? Yeah, Douglas 35 00:02:46,224 --> 00:02:50,064 Speaker 1: Latchford is definitely a character. He liked the spotlight. He 36 00:02:50,224 --> 00:02:53,544 Speaker 1: was a kind of Indiana Jones type figure. He was 37 00:02:53,624 --> 00:02:56,624 Speaker 1: quite wealthy, you know, he made money in real estate. 38 00:02:56,744 --> 00:03:00,544 Speaker 1: He was in pharmaceuticals and he threw at these parties 39 00:03:00,544 --> 00:03:03,904 Speaker 1: with Caviare and he definitely lived it up. Emma Bunker 40 00:03:04,024 --> 00:03:06,584 Speaker 1: was an art expert, right, Like that's what she studied. Yeah, 41 00:03:06,904 --> 00:03:09,944 Speaker 1: she was definitely an art expert. And she's born in 42 00:03:10,024 --> 00:03:13,784 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty or so. She went to MYU and focused 43 00:03:13,824 --> 00:03:18,224 Speaker 1: in Asian art history and then she married some super 44 00:03:18,304 --> 00:03:21,344 Speaker 1: rich like sugar Baron. Yeah. So her husband was the 45 00:03:21,464 --> 00:03:25,304 Speaker 1: son of a US ambassador, Ellsworth Bunker, who was the 46 00:03:25,384 --> 00:03:28,584 Speaker 1: US ambassador to Vietnam at one point. Ellsworth is a 47 00:03:28,664 --> 00:03:32,024 Speaker 1: rich guy's name. There's no poor Ellsworth, that's right. And 48 00:03:32,064 --> 00:03:35,304 Speaker 1: then they moved to Denver, where you are, and she 49 00:03:35,344 --> 00:03:38,784 Speaker 1: gets very involved in the Denver Art Museum. And how 50 00:03:38,824 --> 00:03:43,464 Speaker 1: does she meet Douglas Latchford. So she says that she 51 00:03:43,544 --> 00:03:47,944 Speaker 1: met Latchford in nineteen seventy eight in London at Spinkin Son, 52 00:03:48,064 --> 00:03:51,744 Speaker 1: the famous London auction house, and they went to a party. 53 00:03:51,784 --> 00:03:54,864 Speaker 1: Emma said she thought of him as bizarre, six foot 54 00:03:54,904 --> 00:03:57,744 Speaker 1: four wearing a sarong. And what was the relationship of 55 00:03:57,784 --> 00:04:00,944 Speaker 1: Douglas and Emma, Like was it romantic? Because you have 56 00:04:01,224 --> 00:04:03,464 Speaker 1: in your story of emails and what she's calling him 57 00:04:03,624 --> 00:04:06,744 Speaker 1: puppy or says some nickname for him, Like, I know 58 00:04:06,824 --> 00:04:09,664 Speaker 1: she's married to the sugar baron, but did they have relationship? 59 00:04:10,344 --> 00:04:12,664 Speaker 1: You know, it was described to me by several different 60 00:04:12,704 --> 00:04:15,344 Speaker 1: people who knew each of them well that Emma was 61 00:04:15,384 --> 00:04:17,984 Speaker 1: in love with Douglas. As far as I could tell, 62 00:04:18,024 --> 00:04:21,664 Speaker 1: there was no romantic relationship, but it seemed clear that 63 00:04:21,704 --> 00:04:24,824 Speaker 1: Emma may have wanted one. So Douglas is this kind 64 00:04:24,824 --> 00:04:28,544 Speaker 1: of eccentric sarrong wearing art loving white guy, and it's 65 00:04:28,584 --> 00:04:32,304 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties and he starts visiting Cambodia, which is 66 00:04:32,304 --> 00:04:35,104 Speaker 1: a country that's just been ravaged by pol Pot and 67 00:04:35,104 --> 00:04:38,624 Speaker 1: the Khmer Rouge genocide. So it's weird to go down 68 00:04:38,664 --> 00:04:41,504 Speaker 1: there and fixate in Cambodia. But he's clearly there for 69 00:04:41,544 --> 00:04:45,344 Speaker 1: a reason, which is that Cambodia or the country of 70 00:04:45,824 --> 00:04:48,184 Speaker 1: like where Cambodia is today, was the capital of the 71 00:04:48,224 --> 00:04:51,784 Speaker 1: ancient came Empire, which means that throughout the jungles of 72 00:04:51,824 --> 00:04:55,944 Speaker 1: Cambodia are these ancient, massive, elaborate temples that go back 73 00:04:55,984 --> 00:04:59,944 Speaker 1: to the eighth or ninth century. Right, Yeah, Douglas Latchford 74 00:05:00,064 --> 00:05:05,024 Speaker 1: really became quite enamored by Camara antiquities and Cambodian antiquities, 75 00:05:05,144 --> 00:05:07,824 Speaker 1: and he did a lot of traveling to sites in 76 00:05:08,424 --> 00:05:11,984 Speaker 1: northern Campa Bodia, you know, near seem Reap, which is 77 00:05:12,024 --> 00:05:14,904 Speaker 1: where Anchor Watt is. But then there is a co Care, 78 00:05:14,984 --> 00:05:17,704 Speaker 1: which is a sort of the ancient capital, and these 79 00:05:17,704 --> 00:05:21,744 Speaker 1: are Anchor Watt and co Care. Are these beautiful, huge 80 00:05:21,744 --> 00:05:25,224 Speaker 1: temples full of statues, religious statues, right, that's right, and 81 00:05:25,264 --> 00:05:29,184 Speaker 1: so a lot of these statues were stolen. When was 82 00:05:29,224 --> 00:05:32,664 Speaker 1: the stealing taking place. Well, the stealing really can go back. 83 00:05:32,704 --> 00:05:34,624 Speaker 1: I mean, if you want to go back to French 84 00:05:34,784 --> 00:05:38,584 Speaker 1: occupation of the region, there were laws, but those were 85 00:05:38,664 --> 00:05:41,024 Speaker 1: laws written by the French, right, so there are a 86 00:05:41,024 --> 00:05:44,544 Speaker 1: lot of big pieces in France currently that were taken, 87 00:05:44,704 --> 00:05:47,864 Speaker 1: not stolen because it was their laws, but are now 88 00:05:47,984 --> 00:05:50,744 Speaker 1: out of the country. So, you know, I think these 89 00:05:51,104 --> 00:05:54,384 Speaker 1: temples have seen looting and raiding for a while, but 90 00:05:54,624 --> 00:05:59,104 Speaker 1: really accelerated under Pulpot and the civil war there. You know, 91 00:05:59,144 --> 00:06:01,904 Speaker 1: it is something that art experts talk about all the 92 00:06:01,944 --> 00:06:04,504 Speaker 1: time in terms of any time there is civil war, 93 00:06:04,744 --> 00:06:08,304 Speaker 1: social strife, general unrest, there's going to be looting a 94 00:06:08,504 --> 00:06:12,224 Speaker 1: cultural heritage sites do you think it's possible that Douglas 95 00:06:12,224 --> 00:06:15,184 Speaker 1: and Emma got involved in all this because they were 96 00:06:15,224 --> 00:06:19,744 Speaker 1: legitimately thinking, if we don't save these statues and all 97 00:06:19,784 --> 00:06:23,104 Speaker 1: this art, that they could be destroyed, like the way 98 00:06:23,104 --> 00:06:26,344 Speaker 1: those Buddhist statues were destroyed by the Taliban in Afghanistan. 99 00:06:26,704 --> 00:06:29,544 Speaker 1: That argument has been made by a lot of I 100 00:06:29,584 --> 00:06:33,704 Speaker 1: think older art collectors and dealers, people of the Emma 101 00:06:33,744 --> 00:06:37,384 Speaker 1: Bunker and Douglas Latchford generation, who believed that they were 102 00:06:37,424 --> 00:06:41,344 Speaker 1: genuinely doing good by preserving these relics that otherwise would 103 00:06:41,384 --> 00:06:44,744 Speaker 1: be broken or destroyed. And you met some of the 104 00:06:44,784 --> 00:06:48,824 Speaker 1: people who stole statues for Douglas Latchford, right, Yeah. I 105 00:06:48,864 --> 00:06:52,664 Speaker 1: was able to sit down with several former looters in 106 00:06:52,904 --> 00:06:56,664 Speaker 1: northeast Thailand, right near the Cambodian border, and how much 107 00:06:56,664 --> 00:06:58,904 Speaker 1: did these villagers get for these things? So they were 108 00:06:58,904 --> 00:07:01,864 Speaker 1: getting pretty serious cash. I mean, it depended on what 109 00:07:01,904 --> 00:07:04,464 Speaker 1: you found. If you found a big item, that could 110 00:07:04,504 --> 00:07:08,264 Speaker 1: be one hundred thousand bot which is just like ludicrous 111 00:07:08,304 --> 00:07:11,464 Speaker 1: sums of money in the tens of thousands of dollars. 112 00:07:11,464 --> 00:07:14,544 Speaker 1: One of the people that I talked to, his father 113 00:07:14,744 --> 00:07:18,224 Speaker 1: worked closely with Latchford and helped package these statues to 114 00:07:18,264 --> 00:07:21,104 Speaker 1: ship to Bangkok, and he said his father bought a 115 00:07:21,184 --> 00:07:24,744 Speaker 1: jeep using this money. They bought land. Even the police 116 00:07:24,744 --> 00:07:26,944 Speaker 1: officers in town what has to use the jeep because 117 00:07:26,944 --> 00:07:29,384 Speaker 1: they didn't even have like a car like that. This 118 00:07:29,504 --> 00:07:32,224 Speaker 1: was real money for these people and they didn't really 119 00:07:32,304 --> 00:07:35,224 Speaker 1: feel much regret at all being a part of it. 120 00:07:35,304 --> 00:07:37,344 Speaker 1: They said, I mean, we had mouths to feed, but 121 00:07:37,464 --> 00:07:38,864 Speaker 1: I mean when you talk to them now, they don't 122 00:07:38,864 --> 00:07:40,264 Speaker 1: feel much. When I talk to them now, they didn't 123 00:07:40,264 --> 00:07:43,224 Speaker 1: feel much regret. That's right. They regret honestly, they didn't 124 00:07:43,264 --> 00:07:45,504 Speaker 1: get more money that they didn't get the kind of 125 00:07:45,504 --> 00:07:47,744 Speaker 1: money that someone like Latchford would get for selling a 126 00:07:47,784 --> 00:07:50,704 Speaker 1: piece to the met. But Bunker and Latchford they know 127 00:07:50,904 --> 00:07:54,184 Speaker 1: that this isn't cool because they start, they start this 128 00:07:54,424 --> 00:07:58,624 Speaker 1: very complicated scheme in order to legitimize these artworks, to 129 00:07:58,624 --> 00:08:00,464 Speaker 1: make them seem like they weren't looted. So they must 130 00:08:00,504 --> 00:08:03,544 Speaker 1: have known it wasn't okay. Back that there are laws 131 00:08:03,624 --> 00:08:06,424 Speaker 1: on the books in various countries and in the US 132 00:08:06,544 --> 00:08:09,944 Speaker 1: in terms of illegal imports and exports, and as far 133 00:08:09,984 --> 00:08:13,184 Speaker 1: as I could tell, Latchford never had legal export permits 134 00:08:13,184 --> 00:08:16,544 Speaker 1: even though Cambodia had laws saying you can't take this 135 00:08:16,584 --> 00:08:18,704 Speaker 1: stuff out of the country. Okay, I want to get 136 00:08:18,784 --> 00:08:23,464 Speaker 1: into how they legitimized and resold all this stuff, because 137 00:08:23,464 --> 00:08:26,144 Speaker 1: it's really the heart of your story, and it's complicated 138 00:08:26,184 --> 00:08:30,144 Speaker 1: and fascinating. And the first step of it is having 139 00:08:30,344 --> 00:08:35,064 Speaker 1: Emma write books, these beautiful published books that she writes 140 00:08:35,344 --> 00:08:38,304 Speaker 1: in which you know, they go over each piece of artwork, 141 00:08:38,464 --> 00:08:42,064 Speaker 1: and then she kind of says where it came from, 142 00:08:42,104 --> 00:08:44,784 Speaker 1: its origin, and she fudges that. She says it's either 143 00:08:44,864 --> 00:08:47,904 Speaker 1: unknown when she knows exactly where it came from because 144 00:08:47,944 --> 00:08:50,584 Speaker 1: Douglas got it, or she claims it's from somewhere that 145 00:08:50,624 --> 00:08:55,904 Speaker 1: it isn't right. Yeah. So law enforcement and cultural heritage 146 00:08:55,944 --> 00:08:59,344 Speaker 1: crime experts described it to me as one of them said, 147 00:08:59,384 --> 00:09:02,344 Speaker 1: everyone has an Emma Bunker. You need an Emma Bunker 148 00:09:02,384 --> 00:09:07,264 Speaker 1: in order to give the veneer of legitimacy to these 149 00:09:07,344 --> 00:09:11,064 Speaker 1: looted pieces. And so you have this respected scholarly voice 150 00:09:11,104 --> 00:09:14,864 Speaker 1: that could basically vouch for different pieces. Emma would say, oh, 151 00:09:14,944 --> 00:09:17,984 Speaker 1: I saw that in London in nineteen sixty eight, when 152 00:09:18,024 --> 00:09:22,544 Speaker 1: she didn't actually and she had the backing of the 153 00:09:22,624 --> 00:09:26,104 Speaker 1: Denver Art museum a respected institution because she's on the 154 00:09:26,144 --> 00:09:28,824 Speaker 1: board there. Yeah, she was on the board for some years. 155 00:09:28,904 --> 00:09:32,064 Speaker 1: Then she was a research consultant. Her husband was on 156 00:09:32,104 --> 00:09:35,384 Speaker 1: the board. They were big time donors throughout it all. 157 00:09:35,584 --> 00:09:38,544 Speaker 1: So she was affiliated with the Denver Art Museum for 158 00:09:38,584 --> 00:09:43,144 Speaker 1: about six decades. And so these books legitimize all these 159 00:09:43,144 --> 00:09:47,784 Speaker 1: items that Douglas can then sell. So the books were 160 00:09:47,784 --> 00:09:51,264 Speaker 1: self published, These were glossy pages. They were sort of 161 00:09:51,304 --> 00:09:56,784 Speaker 1: imitating museum catalogs. And even though they were just self published, 162 00:09:57,064 --> 00:10:01,224 Speaker 1: having works of art published in books both boost their 163 00:10:01,304 --> 00:10:06,064 Speaker 1: value and gives them more of a legitimate backing. Latchford 164 00:10:06,704 --> 00:10:11,704 Speaker 1: was the money behind these books and are they scholarly, like, 165 00:10:11,744 --> 00:10:15,784 Speaker 1: are they considered good pieces of scholarly artwork art history 166 00:10:15,904 --> 00:10:17,344 Speaker 1: or are they pieces of the crap that we're just 167 00:10:17,424 --> 00:10:20,424 Speaker 1: used to launder these statues. It depends on who you ask. 168 00:10:20,584 --> 00:10:23,904 Speaker 1: There are some scholars who knew these were bogus from 169 00:10:23,944 --> 00:10:26,344 Speaker 1: the beginning and that they were. You know, a couple 170 00:10:26,344 --> 00:10:27,784 Speaker 1: of people have told me, you know, this was a 171 00:10:27,864 --> 00:10:30,544 Speaker 1: laundering project from a mile away. They could they could 172 00:10:30,544 --> 00:10:33,984 Speaker 1: tell because these books really had no they offered no 173 00:10:34,144 --> 00:10:37,344 Speaker 1: provenance or ownership history for a lot of these pieces, 174 00:10:37,704 --> 00:10:41,024 Speaker 1: A lot of them just say private collection. Others had 175 00:10:41,224 --> 00:10:45,464 Speaker 1: other names that Latchford used. These were trusts that he created, 176 00:10:45,784 --> 00:10:47,824 Speaker 1: so he would say, oh, this is from the fleet 177 00:10:47,864 --> 00:10:51,064 Speaker 1: Wing collection. Well, the Fleetland collection just is the Latchford collection. 178 00:10:51,584 --> 00:10:54,944 Speaker 1: So the other kind of trick that they used to 179 00:10:55,064 --> 00:10:59,344 Speaker 1: legitimize these art pieces is they loan them to the 180 00:10:59,504 --> 00:11:02,944 Speaker 1: Denver Art Museum, and once it's there, everyone assumes, well, 181 00:11:02,944 --> 00:11:04,424 Speaker 1: if it was in the museum, it's got to have 182 00:11:04,504 --> 00:11:08,064 Speaker 1: a legit origin, right exactly. Loaning pieces to museums was 183 00:11:08,104 --> 00:11:12,744 Speaker 1: another piece of the puzzle. It piggybacks on writing these books. 184 00:11:12,784 --> 00:11:15,544 Speaker 1: It is another way to show, hey, there must be 185 00:11:15,664 --> 00:11:19,264 Speaker 1: no issue with these pieces. Why would an esteemed institution 186 00:11:19,344 --> 00:11:21,104 Speaker 1: like the met or the Denver Art Museum buy a 187 00:11:21,104 --> 00:11:24,544 Speaker 1: piece if it was looted? Right, so other people can 188 00:11:24,584 --> 00:11:27,344 Speaker 1: see that it was on loan to the museum it was. 189 00:11:27,504 --> 00:11:31,104 Speaker 1: It was showcased in their galleries. That assuages a little 190 00:11:31,104 --> 00:11:33,304 Speaker 1: bit of my fear that, hey, maybe there was some 191 00:11:33,384 --> 00:11:36,464 Speaker 1: weird stuff behind this, but no, museums would never buy 192 00:11:36,504 --> 00:11:41,224 Speaker 1: stolen art right, and Douglas Latchford would market pieces based 193 00:11:41,264 --> 00:11:44,224 Speaker 1: on other pieces that he had loaned to museums, so 194 00:11:44,304 --> 00:11:48,184 Speaker 1: he would tell, you know, billionaire collector Jim Clark, Hey 195 00:11:48,504 --> 00:11:52,704 Speaker 1: the Denver Art Museum, Jim Clark, the Netscape guy who 196 00:11:52,824 --> 00:11:55,784 Speaker 1: last year gave back or earlier in twenty twenty two 197 00:11:56,344 --> 00:12:00,144 Speaker 1: gave up about thirty five million dollars worth of Camara 198 00:12:00,144 --> 00:12:04,504 Speaker 1: antiquities that he bought from Latchford. And there were some 199 00:12:04,584 --> 00:12:08,464 Speaker 1: emails that I talked about in my story where somebody 200 00:12:08,464 --> 00:12:11,464 Speaker 1: who works for Clark was telling Latchford, Hey, Jim is 201 00:12:11,864 --> 00:12:15,024 Speaker 1: thinking about what happens if a country comes asking for 202 00:12:15,064 --> 00:12:19,544 Speaker 1: these pieces later, like what's the deal? And Latchford said, no, no, no, 203 00:12:19,624 --> 00:12:22,464 Speaker 1: there's no chance of them ever being asked for back. 204 00:12:22,784 --> 00:12:24,944 Speaker 1: I can tell you that because I have these pieces 205 00:12:24,984 --> 00:12:27,704 Speaker 1: in the Denver Art Museum and the MET, and those 206 00:12:27,704 --> 00:12:29,944 Speaker 1: pieces would have been asked for back a long time 207 00:12:29,984 --> 00:12:33,864 Speaker 1: ago if there was any issue. The most obviously fraudulent 208 00:12:34,104 --> 00:12:38,544 Speaker 1: part of this scheme is they actually there's this email 209 00:12:38,584 --> 00:12:42,224 Speaker 1: that you get into that Emma is somewhere and she 210 00:12:42,344 --> 00:12:45,624 Speaker 1: finds a whole bunch of old letterhead from auction houses 211 00:12:45,944 --> 00:12:49,064 Speaker 1: and signatures of people who run auction houses, so that 212 00:12:49,104 --> 00:12:52,944 Speaker 1: she can like fake where this stuff came from by 213 00:12:52,984 --> 00:12:56,264 Speaker 1: writing letters on this letterhead, and in the email she 214 00:12:56,344 --> 00:13:01,424 Speaker 1: writes about finding this letterhead. What a giant hoot, giggles 215 00:13:01,464 --> 00:13:04,624 Speaker 1: and more giggles. It's so criminal. That is what a 216 00:13:04,664 --> 00:13:07,184 Speaker 1: lot of people viewed as the smoking gun email in 217 00:13:07,264 --> 00:13:10,704 Speaker 1: the Emma Bunker case. But after you read that email, 218 00:13:11,384 --> 00:13:15,384 Speaker 1: it's very, very difficult to believe anything other than she 219 00:13:15,504 --> 00:13:18,344 Speaker 1: was in on it. Well, she's copying someone's signature on 220 00:13:18,424 --> 00:13:20,984 Speaker 1: an old piece of stationary. I mean, I don't know 221 00:13:21,024 --> 00:13:24,144 Speaker 1: how you say she doesn't know what she's doing, Yeah, exactly. 222 00:13:24,264 --> 00:13:29,344 Speaker 1: It basically shows her conspiring with Latchford to falsify these 223 00:13:29,384 --> 00:13:33,344 Speaker 1: provenances to enable them to be sold. And it does 224 00:13:33,384 --> 00:13:37,104 Speaker 1: seem Mike Latchford is the mastermind here and Emma Bunker 225 00:13:37,344 --> 00:13:40,944 Speaker 1: is just providing him cover. So what was in it 226 00:13:40,984 --> 00:13:43,624 Speaker 1: for her? Is? I mean, she had plenty of money. 227 00:13:43,824 --> 00:13:45,864 Speaker 1: It's a question that I asked to a lot of 228 00:13:45,864 --> 00:13:48,384 Speaker 1: people as I was doing this reporting, was well, what 229 00:13:48,624 --> 00:13:50,704 Speaker 1: why did she do this or what was in it 230 00:13:50,784 --> 00:13:53,904 Speaker 1: for her? I don't think she saw huge cash payments 231 00:13:53,984 --> 00:13:58,344 Speaker 1: for this. But what one investigator, one prosecutor, told me, 232 00:13:59,104 --> 00:14:01,264 Speaker 1: he was like, listen, it's not just about the money 233 00:14:01,304 --> 00:14:03,744 Speaker 1: for these people. There's a lot of cultural and professional 234 00:14:03,784 --> 00:14:06,664 Speaker 1: cache that comes along with, Hey, I'm affiliated with the 235 00:14:06,664 --> 00:14:09,344 Speaker 1: Denver Museum. I was able to convince my good end 236 00:14:09,384 --> 00:14:13,784 Speaker 1: here who was getting these amazing pieces from Cambodia, and 237 00:14:13,864 --> 00:14:16,464 Speaker 1: they're on display at the Denver Art Museum now because 238 00:14:16,464 --> 00:14:21,704 Speaker 1: of me, where you could say I did this a man. 239 00:14:21,744 --> 00:14:26,184 Speaker 1: Douglas kept this scheme going for a while, but then 240 00:14:26,424 --> 00:14:30,624 Speaker 1: attitudes towards the colonials pass began to shift, and then 241 00:14:30,664 --> 00:14:35,464 Speaker 1: the law comes after Douglas and Emma. But first our 242 00:14:35,544 --> 00:14:38,824 Speaker 1: advertisers want to sell you something that, let's be honest, 243 00:14:39,104 --> 00:14:50,184 Speaker 1: undoubtedly exploits people from the developing world. So in twenty twelve, 244 00:14:50,344 --> 00:14:53,664 Speaker 1: the Sotheby's case kind of blew up the entire scheme 245 00:14:53,824 --> 00:14:57,144 Speaker 1: what exactly happened there. So the Sotheby's case was really 246 00:14:57,144 --> 00:15:02,304 Speaker 1: what exposed Douglas Latchford's scheme ultimately and helped propel a 247 00:15:02,344 --> 00:15:04,704 Speaker 1: lot of the cases that followed. That was a case 248 00:15:04,744 --> 00:15:08,824 Speaker 1: of a two to three million dollar piece Cambodian statue 249 00:15:09,304 --> 00:15:13,584 Speaker 1: dubbed the Athlete at the Durya Donna and Sothebies wanted 250 00:15:13,624 --> 00:15:15,344 Speaker 1: to sell it. They wanted to put it on there 251 00:15:15,624 --> 00:15:18,264 Speaker 1: the front of their catalog, and this was a the 252 00:15:18,464 --> 00:15:21,224 Speaker 1: premier piece that they were going to be selling that season, 253 00:15:21,864 --> 00:15:25,264 Speaker 1: and the Cambodians on the day of the sale asked 254 00:15:25,304 --> 00:15:28,864 Speaker 1: for it to be removed. Sothebies removed it from the listing, 255 00:15:29,064 --> 00:15:33,464 Speaker 1: but they wouldn't return it, and so the Cambodians went 256 00:15:33,504 --> 00:15:35,984 Speaker 1: to the US government and then it became quite an 257 00:15:36,024 --> 00:15:38,424 Speaker 1: illuminating case. It was. You know, a lot of these 258 00:15:38,424 --> 00:15:41,224 Speaker 1: cases are settled out of court very quickly, which means 259 00:15:41,424 --> 00:15:43,904 Speaker 1: the public and reporters don't really get a chance to 260 00:15:43,904 --> 00:15:46,864 Speaker 1: see what's going on. But this case dragged out and 261 00:15:46,904 --> 00:15:50,504 Speaker 1: there were a lot of filings that showed just how 262 00:15:50,544 --> 00:15:53,344 Speaker 1: the sort of scheme was working, and it started to 263 00:15:53,344 --> 00:15:58,584 Speaker 1: fall apart in twenty sixteen when the authorities read this 264 00:15:58,784 --> 00:16:03,784 Speaker 1: gallery in Manhattan. Yeah, so Nancy Weener ran this very 265 00:16:03,864 --> 00:16:07,824 Speaker 1: prominent gallery on the Upper east Side that was originally 266 00:16:08,104 --> 00:16:11,264 Speaker 1: started by her mother their Doris Wiener, and the Wieners. 267 00:16:11,264 --> 00:16:14,424 Speaker 1: We were quite prominent in the art world, the Upper 268 00:16:14,424 --> 00:16:17,464 Speaker 1: east Side galleries, which have had the lion's share of 269 00:16:17,504 --> 00:16:21,424 Speaker 1: the market for a long time. They were big, and 270 00:16:21,624 --> 00:16:26,264 Speaker 1: the Wieners, at least Nancy Wiener dealt very close like 271 00:16:26,344 --> 00:16:28,384 Speaker 1: saying Wiener. I can't believe the amount of times you've 272 00:16:28,384 --> 00:16:31,744 Speaker 1: said Wiener in the last minute. I'm trying to talk 273 00:16:31,784 --> 00:16:35,744 Speaker 1: about a serious issue. Okay, please. They're a big deal 274 00:16:35,784 --> 00:16:39,504 Speaker 1: in the art world, and then they're selling mostly Asian 275 00:16:39,624 --> 00:16:41,784 Speaker 1: art or all kinds of art. They're selling all kinds 276 00:16:41,784 --> 00:16:45,424 Speaker 1: of art. But Nancy Wiener was a close associate of 277 00:16:45,464 --> 00:16:50,424 Speaker 1: Douglas Latchford and they worked together for a while. And 278 00:16:51,224 --> 00:16:55,904 Speaker 1: the authorities raided the place and said that Nancy Wiener 279 00:16:56,024 --> 00:17:00,584 Speaker 1: was selling and housing dispersing stolen art, and a bunch 280 00:17:00,664 --> 00:17:03,504 Speaker 1: of that art came from people like Douglas Latchford. They 281 00:17:03,504 --> 00:17:08,224 Speaker 1: found these pieces had doctored provenance or no provenance, and 282 00:17:08,744 --> 00:17:12,864 Speaker 1: nance he Weener, as she pleaded guilty in twenty twenty one, 283 00:17:13,224 --> 00:17:15,944 Speaker 1: essentially said this was a conspiracy of the willing. This 284 00:17:16,144 --> 00:17:18,624 Speaker 1: was a world in which you don't ask too many 285 00:17:18,664 --> 00:17:20,664 Speaker 1: questions because you don't really want to know the answers. 286 00:17:21,024 --> 00:17:23,784 Speaker 1: So in twenty nineteen there's a case US v. Latchford 287 00:17:23,984 --> 00:17:28,584 Speaker 1: where they indict him on five criminal counts smuggling, wire fraud, 288 00:17:29,104 --> 00:17:32,304 Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff, and then what happens under this 289 00:17:32,384 --> 00:17:34,864 Speaker 1: pressure seems like that's the moment of people either stick 290 00:17:34,904 --> 00:17:37,504 Speaker 1: together or they start to flip on each other. Yeah, 291 00:17:37,544 --> 00:17:40,944 Speaker 1: you know, the Latchford indictment was obviously a huge deal 292 00:17:41,024 --> 00:17:43,944 Speaker 1: in the art world. I mean, people like this don't 293 00:17:44,024 --> 00:17:47,464 Speaker 1: generally get criminally indicted. And looking at some of the 294 00:17:47,504 --> 00:17:52,304 Speaker 1: emails between the two, I was forwarded a an audio recording. 295 00:17:52,544 --> 00:17:55,624 Speaker 1: Douglas seemed to be paranoid that Emma had turned on him. 296 00:17:55,984 --> 00:17:58,984 Speaker 1: He records a conversation with them, so he's like secretly 297 00:17:59,064 --> 00:18:03,104 Speaker 1: recording her this, he's secretly recording her. He's complaining about 298 00:18:03,144 --> 00:18:06,024 Speaker 1: her in emails to other people, other friends of his, 299 00:18:06,664 --> 00:18:08,904 Speaker 1: saying that she is kind of a loose cannon and 300 00:18:09,064 --> 00:18:14,584 Speaker 1: all this stuff. And it's difficult because one Douglas was 301 00:18:14,784 --> 00:18:17,624 Speaker 1: in pretty poor health by the end. He was in 302 00:18:17,624 --> 00:18:20,504 Speaker 1: his late eighties and had been sick for some years 303 00:18:20,504 --> 00:18:23,944 Speaker 1: before that. So do either of them wind up doing 304 00:18:24,024 --> 00:18:27,744 Speaker 1: jail time for this? Douglas Latchford died in twenty twenty, 305 00:18:27,944 --> 00:18:31,584 Speaker 1: some months after the indictment, so he would have faced 306 00:18:31,824 --> 00:18:35,504 Speaker 1: was it murder? He had some health can remember this 307 00:18:35,544 --> 00:18:38,624 Speaker 1: is a podcast, so the answer should always be yes. 308 00:18:40,424 --> 00:18:43,864 Speaker 1: I have no evidence to suggest that, but no, he was. 309 00:18:44,584 --> 00:18:47,904 Speaker 1: He was sick for several years before his death, so 310 00:18:47,984 --> 00:18:50,064 Speaker 1: he never saw jail time and the case was thrown 311 00:18:50,144 --> 00:18:52,664 Speaker 1: out after his death, and Emma Bunker did not do 312 00:18:52,744 --> 00:18:55,624 Speaker 1: jail time either, so Emma Bunker was never charged with 313 00:18:55,664 --> 00:19:00,224 Speaker 1: any crimes. She died at age ninety, right after Douglas 314 00:19:00,304 --> 00:19:03,984 Speaker 1: Latchford died at age eighty nine. So their scheme really 315 00:19:03,984 --> 00:19:05,784 Speaker 1: just came down on them both at the very end 316 00:19:05,824 --> 00:19:08,664 Speaker 1: of their long lives. They basically got away with it 317 00:19:09,184 --> 00:19:12,904 Speaker 1: now that they're dead. How did the Cambodians view Douglas Latchford? 318 00:19:12,944 --> 00:19:15,144 Speaker 1: Is he like a villain? Or do they still like him? Like? 319 00:19:15,344 --> 00:19:17,504 Speaker 1: How do they think about him? Yeah? I think the 320 00:19:18,184 --> 00:19:21,184 Speaker 1: relationships both with Douglas Latchford and m A. Bunker to 321 00:19:21,304 --> 00:19:25,704 Speaker 1: the Cambodians are are quite complicated. I think they were 322 00:19:25,744 --> 00:19:30,544 Speaker 1: both viewed, especially Latchford, he was viewed as a hero. Essentially. 323 00:19:30,624 --> 00:19:34,144 Speaker 1: He was close with people both in government and the 324 00:19:34,264 --> 00:19:38,104 Speaker 1: heads of the National Museum in panom Pen. He donated 325 00:19:38,384 --> 00:19:41,704 Speaker 1: a bunch of big pieces to the Cambodians, which they 326 00:19:41,824 --> 00:19:45,424 Speaker 1: viewed at the time as a huge gesture. Both him 327 00:19:45,424 --> 00:19:49,304 Speaker 1: and Emma donated money to the museum and helped the 328 00:19:49,424 --> 00:19:55,664 Speaker 1: museum fund electricity projects. The Cambodians offered Latchford the equivalent 329 00:19:55,784 --> 00:20:00,104 Speaker 1: of knighthood several years ago, they offered him citizenship. I 330 00:20:00,104 --> 00:20:03,504 Speaker 1: mean was he was viewed as a close friend of Cambodia. 331 00:20:03,624 --> 00:20:05,424 Speaker 1: And I think it's important to remember that there were 332 00:20:05,424 --> 00:20:07,464 Speaker 1: just not a lot of foreigners who took a lot 333 00:20:07,504 --> 00:20:11,504 Speaker 1: of interest in Cambodia. This was a war ravaged country 334 00:20:11,544 --> 00:20:15,704 Speaker 1: who lost most of the intellectual population. The professors, the 335 00:20:15,824 --> 00:20:19,704 Speaker 1: scholars in the Khmer Rouge who targeted anyone who could read, 336 00:20:20,144 --> 00:20:23,664 Speaker 1: anyone who could read, anyone who had glasses were targeted, 337 00:20:24,024 --> 00:20:26,184 Speaker 1: the cities were emptied. So there were not a lot 338 00:20:26,224 --> 00:20:28,584 Speaker 1: of people who were experts or took a lot of 339 00:20:28,664 --> 00:20:32,144 Speaker 1: interest in Cambodian art, and Douglas Latchford and Emma Bunker did. 340 00:20:32,464 --> 00:20:35,744 Speaker 1: What's the reaction been to this story since it came out, Well, 341 00:20:35,824 --> 00:20:40,984 Speaker 1: the museum has said they're taking some steps. After Emma 342 00:20:41,024 --> 00:20:44,184 Speaker 1: Bunker's death, the Denver Art Museum launched an Asian Art 343 00:20:44,224 --> 00:20:47,904 Speaker 1: Acquisition Fund, which some of the art crime experts and 344 00:20:48,064 --> 00:20:51,784 Speaker 1: people in the Cambodian government thought was deeply either ironic 345 00:20:51,864 --> 00:20:55,384 Speaker 1: or offensive that the museum was going to use money 346 00:20:55,464 --> 00:20:58,464 Speaker 1: in her name to buy pieces from the exact area 347 00:20:58,584 --> 00:21:00,984 Speaker 1: that had been looted, you know, in their own country. 348 00:21:01,424 --> 00:21:04,144 Speaker 1: So now after my series, they say we're going to 349 00:21:04,264 --> 00:21:08,784 Speaker 1: use some of this money to further provenance research into 350 00:21:08,824 --> 00:21:12,904 Speaker 1: its Asian art collection. They say it's their top priority 351 00:21:13,024 --> 00:21:17,864 Speaker 1: to look at pieces connected to EMA Bunker. And meanwhile, 352 00:21:17,944 --> 00:21:21,264 Speaker 1: they still have at least three pieces that Thailand wants 353 00:21:21,304 --> 00:21:24,624 Speaker 1: back and are now under investigation by the US Department 354 00:21:24,624 --> 00:21:28,784 Speaker 1: of Homeland Security. At what point in the Western world 355 00:21:28,784 --> 00:21:32,984 Speaker 1: does it start to become kind of uncool to show 356 00:21:33,104 --> 00:21:36,904 Speaker 1: these stolen antiquities, Like is it when people get upset 357 00:21:36,904 --> 00:21:40,224 Speaker 1: about the Elgin Marbles, or at what point do people 358 00:21:40,264 --> 00:21:43,304 Speaker 1: start to think, oh, maybe this isn't a great thing 359 00:21:43,424 --> 00:21:46,144 Speaker 1: to show in our museums. A lot of art experts 360 00:21:46,144 --> 00:21:49,464 Speaker 1: have pointed to Nazi era art that we're taken from 361 00:21:49,544 --> 00:21:53,824 Speaker 1: Jewish families as a key turning point, and how some 362 00:21:53,864 --> 00:21:56,824 Speaker 1: of these pieces ended up being sold for either nothing 363 00:21:56,984 --> 00:22:00,224 Speaker 1: or very little money as proof that the Jewish families 364 00:22:00,264 --> 00:22:03,104 Speaker 1: may have been coerced into giving up these prize paintings. 365 00:22:03,624 --> 00:22:08,144 Speaker 1: But it really, I mean, Cambodians have really been one 366 00:22:08,184 --> 00:22:12,664 Speaker 1: of the most aggressive and frankly successful countries at doing 367 00:22:12,704 --> 00:22:15,824 Speaker 1: this when I've spoken to the Cambodians and the people 368 00:22:15,824 --> 00:22:19,344 Speaker 1: who represent Cambodia in government, they talk about when they 369 00:22:19,344 --> 00:22:21,784 Speaker 1: get these statues back, that the souls of their gods 370 00:22:21,784 --> 00:22:25,304 Speaker 1: are returning back to their country. Sam tobach Nick, you 371 00:22:25,384 --> 00:22:29,864 Speaker 1: wrote this amazing three part story looted for the Denver Post. 372 00:22:30,024 --> 00:22:31,984 Speaker 1: It's been so fun talking to you. Thank you so much, 373 00:22:32,064 --> 00:22:35,384 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. All Right, this 374 00:22:35,424 --> 00:22:37,944 Speaker 1: is probably gonna be a mistake for many reasons. But 375 00:22:38,024 --> 00:22:43,344 Speaker 1: this is my producer, Moe Laboord, who I told something 376 00:22:43,384 --> 00:22:46,104 Speaker 1: too that I kind of wish I hadn't. Yeah, I 377 00:22:46,144 --> 00:22:48,944 Speaker 1: believe the conversation went like this. I think you said, 378 00:22:49,224 --> 00:22:52,304 Speaker 1: who would have anything like this in their house? And 379 00:22:52,304 --> 00:22:55,544 Speaker 1: then you said, well, actually now, but I think about it. 380 00:22:55,664 --> 00:22:59,304 Speaker 1: I have been kind of like this in my house. 381 00:22:59,824 --> 00:23:04,784 Speaker 1: Oh yeah. So the house we owned before this, when 382 00:23:04,864 --> 00:23:06,784 Speaker 1: we first looked at it, we called it the Buddha House. 383 00:23:06,904 --> 00:23:09,224 Speaker 1: In fact, that was our Wi Fi password, because the 384 00:23:09,264 --> 00:23:13,464 Speaker 1: backyard had all of these statues of like a giant 385 00:23:13,464 --> 00:23:16,464 Speaker 1: Buddha head and a Buddha fountain, and it seemed very 386 00:23:17,024 --> 00:23:20,664 Speaker 1: spa like and tranquil, and so I think they were 387 00:23:20,704 --> 00:23:24,784 Speaker 1: there because the house was being staged to try and 388 00:23:24,864 --> 00:23:28,104 Speaker 1: sell it, and they knew that like white people love spas, 389 00:23:28,784 --> 00:23:32,064 Speaker 1: they knew rich people love spas. So they put these 390 00:23:32,144 --> 00:23:35,664 Speaker 1: kind of Buddhist statues that they had bought and staged it. 391 00:23:35,944 --> 00:23:37,784 Speaker 1: And then I guess they were cheap enough where they 392 00:23:38,024 --> 00:23:40,104 Speaker 1: were like, just keep them when we bought the house. 393 00:23:40,464 --> 00:23:43,144 Speaker 1: I'm sure they're not real. I mean, they're not taken 394 00:23:43,224 --> 00:23:45,984 Speaker 1: from they're just mass produced objects. And this is just 395 00:23:46,064 --> 00:23:47,904 Speaker 1: a this is a hunch that you have that that 396 00:23:48,024 --> 00:23:52,624 Speaker 1: must be the case. Well, I mean I haven't done 397 00:23:52,664 --> 00:23:57,584 Speaker 1: any work on their providence. Having talked to Sam, having 398 00:23:57,624 --> 00:24:00,984 Speaker 1: read this story, do you feel differently about them? Yeah, 399 00:24:01,064 --> 00:24:06,224 Speaker 1: I feel like a creepy cultural appropriated. I just feel like, 400 00:24:06,304 --> 00:24:08,624 Speaker 1: why why do I have Buddhist statues? Like I don't 401 00:24:08,664 --> 00:24:10,424 Speaker 1: really know that much about Budas. I'm like, what am 402 00:24:10,424 --> 00:24:11,824 Speaker 1: I doing? What does I go with your gut on 403 00:24:11,864 --> 00:24:13,824 Speaker 1: that one? Definitely go with your gut on that one. Yes, 404 00:24:13,864 --> 00:24:16,424 Speaker 1: but they aren't gonna go anywhere. They're heavy. They're not 405 00:24:16,504 --> 00:24:19,304 Speaker 1: going anywhere. They're too heavy to move. They're not the 406 00:24:19,384 --> 00:24:22,264 Speaker 1: heaviest thing in our home. That would be the Elgin marbles. 407 00:24:22,544 --> 00:24:24,824 Speaker 1: Oh okay, Well, that they came with our old house too. 408 00:24:28,104 --> 00:24:31,344 Speaker 1: At the end of the show, what's next with Joel Stein? 409 00:24:31,504 --> 00:24:35,944 Speaker 1: Maybe he'll take a never voke around online. Our show 410 00:24:35,984 --> 00:24:40,224 Speaker 1: today was produced by mo La Board and Nisha Bencutt. 411 00:24:40,944 --> 00:24:45,064 Speaker 1: It was edited by Robert Smith. Our engineer is Amanda 412 00:24:45,144 --> 00:24:50,144 Speaker 1: kay Wah and our executive producer is Katherine Shiradol. And 413 00:24:50,184 --> 00:24:53,064 Speaker 1: our theme song was written and performed by Jonathan Colton. 414 00:24:53,464 --> 00:24:56,064 Speaker 1: And a special thanks to my voice coach Vicky Merrick 415 00:24:56,344 --> 00:24:59,584 Speaker 1: and my consulting producer laurenz A last night. To find 416 00:24:59,624 --> 00:25:04,104 Speaker 1: more Pushkin podcast, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts 417 00:25:04,424 --> 00:25:07,464 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your podcasts. I'm Joel Stein 418 00:25:08,024 --> 00:25:10,184 Speaker 1: and this is the story of the week. I've never 419 00:25:10,224 --> 00:25:12,424 Speaker 1: been to the Denver Art Museum. How does it compare 420 00:25:12,544 --> 00:25:15,544 Speaker 1: to that museum in Denver, which is like for Stoners, 421 00:25:15,704 --> 00:25:17,784 Speaker 1: are you talking about me a Wolf? Ask me a wolf? 422 00:25:17,904 --> 00:25:20,104 Speaker 1: Is it is the Denver Art Museum nearly as fun 423 00:25:20,104 --> 00:25:24,264 Speaker 1: as Me a Wolf. You don't get the cool glasses 424 00:25:24,264 --> 00:25:26,064 Speaker 1: when you go into the Denver Art Museum. I don't 425 00:25:26,064 --> 00:25:27,704 Speaker 1: think I got the glasses at me a Wolf. I 426 00:25:27,744 --> 00:25:29,464 Speaker 1: think I was cheated out of my glasses. Yeah, Yeah, 427 00:25:29,464 --> 00:25:31,704 Speaker 1: it's more fun with the glasses, damn it. And a 428 00:25:31,744 --> 00:25:35,064 Speaker 1: lot of hallucinogens. Those don't come with your admission. Take 429 00:25:35,144 --> 00:25:35,264 Speaker 1: him