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Speaker 1: When Lindsay Tornambi was young, she lived in a remote community.

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Speaker 1: It was far north in the woods of Minnesota, clusters

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Speaker 1: of cabins and trailers, hidden among pine trees and lakes,

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Speaker 1: with no real connection to the outside world. About one

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty people lived there together. They had all

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Speaker 1: moved there for a very specific reason to follow. One

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Speaker 1: Sunday morning, they were all getting ready for the day.

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Speaker 1: Lindsay was twelve at the time, a girl with dark

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Speaker 1: wavy hair, brown eyes like deep pools.

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Speaker 2: I think I was just at home in the trailer

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Speaker 2: where we lived.

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Speaker 1: She lived with her family in a double wide trailer home,

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Speaker 1: and that morning Lindsay did what she always did. She

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Speaker 1: was eating breakfast, helping her sister pick out an outfit.

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Speaker 2: And all of a sudden, I remember like my mom yelling,

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Speaker 2: the eagles are gathering. The eagles are going, And I.

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Speaker 1: Was like, what, the eagles are gathering.

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Speaker 2: There was this huge bell that you would ring that

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Speaker 2: you could hear from different places. You started hearing people screaming,

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Speaker 2: the eagles are gathering, the eagles are gathering. The bells

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Speaker 2: started ringing, the phone started ringing. Everyone was just like

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Speaker 2: went crazy.

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Speaker 1: Because the eagles are gathering was a code, and the

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Speaker 1: code meant Jesus is here.

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Speaker 2: Jesus Christ was something back like this was it. He

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Speaker 2: was coming. We were going to heaven.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: It's so it was like euphoria.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember my mom being like so excited, like,

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Speaker 2: oh my gosh, we got to get to the Shepherd's Camp.

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Speaker 2: We can't miss it. Get yourself in the van as

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Speaker 2: fast as you can. Everyone literally dropped what they were doing.

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Speaker 2: I mean everyone was just panicking. Like you could see

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Speaker 2: all the cars just flying, the dust clouds, the dirt

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Speaker 2: just like flying up.

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Speaker 1: They had a designated meeting spot, a central location where

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Speaker 1: they all worshiped, a place called the Shepherd's Camp. Here

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Speaker 1: they would greet Jesus and descend with him to Heaven.

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Speaker 2: People showed up to the Shepherd's Camp with shampoos still

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Speaker 2: in their hair. Somebody said that they had left the

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Speaker 2: iron on, somebody had left the oven on. People were

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Speaker 2: half dressed, missing a shoe or something. People were just

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Speaker 2: like piling in and everyone gathered in front of the

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Speaker 2: dining hall, which we called taberna. It was the end times,

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Speaker 2: This was it. Jesus Christ is coming back.

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Speaker 1: A man came out to meet them at the dining hall.

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Speaker 1: He had brown hair and a short beard. He was

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Speaker 1: thin but strong looking. Everyone watched him, waiting to hear

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Speaker 1: what he would say. His name was Victor Bernard. Lindsay's

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Speaker 1: family was part of a group called River Road Fellowship,

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Speaker 1: a religious organization named for a road in Minnesota. A

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Speaker 1: group founded and created by this man, Victor, who would

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Speaker 1: change all of his followers' lives.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to describe Victor. I don't think I knew

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Speaker 2: why I loved him. I just knew that everyone did.

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Speaker 2: You saw all of this respect and honor and love

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Speaker 2: for him, and I was like, Okay, this is who

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Speaker 2: God had sent to us, and this is our chef

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Speaker 2: and the one who takes care of us. Sometimes it

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Speaker 2: still confuses me as to why one how quickly they

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Speaker 2: just either were brainwashed or I don't even know how

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Speaker 2: to explain why they did what they did or what

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Speaker 2: they were thinking. It's a mixture of sadness, of anger,

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Speaker 2: of sometimes wishing it never happened. I mean, you can't

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Speaker 2: go back and change anything.

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Speaker 1: Here in this community. Sometimes things that seem perfect are

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Speaker 1: anything but air that smells like pine trees, that sway

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Speaker 1: in the wind loons calling over the water, a lake

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Speaker 1: so still it looks like glass. Everyone smiles. They plaster

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Speaker 1: it on their faces until it feels natural. They express

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Speaker 1: gratitude in every conversation. God loves us. Give thanks to God.

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Speaker 1: We'll have our own paradises, our own planets, even better

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Speaker 1: than we could imagine here on earth. The community tries

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Speaker 1: to hide from the dangers of the outside world, the

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Speaker 1: temptations lurking beyond the walls of their utopia. But the

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Speaker 1: smiling faces and the sparkling lake hide something dark and crushing.

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Speaker 2: For Cocoa Punch.

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Speaker 1: And iHeart podcasts, this is the Turning River Road I

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Speaker 1: America Lance and I.

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Speaker 4: Meln Lance Lesser Part one they can.

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Speaker 1: If you've listened to The Turning you probably know that.

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Speaker 1: My sister Alan and I make this show together. And

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Speaker 1: a few years ago, Allen told me about a story

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Speaker 1: I had never heard before, a story she couldn't stop

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Speaker 1: talking about. Lindsay's story.

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Speaker 4: I couldn't stop talking about it because I was surprised

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Speaker 4: it all happened so close to where we'd grown up.

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Speaker 4: While we were growing up. We live in Minneapolis, Minnesota,

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Speaker 4: and Lindsay was in Pine County just two hours north

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Speaker 4: of us. Our family had driven through the area many times,

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Speaker 4: we didn't know that a man named Victor Bernard lived

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Speaker 4: off a dirt road somewhere in Pine County, a man

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Speaker 4: who called himself an apostle and convinced dozens of families

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Speaker 4: to join him. It felt strange that for years we'd

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Speaker 4: been investigating groups with leaders who wielded absolute power, who

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Speaker 4: could enlighten and inspire, but who could also admonish and harm,

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Speaker 4: And here was an example in our own backyard. When

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Speaker 4: I found out about Lindsay, I googled her. She's a

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Speaker 4: woman in her thirties, now around my age. Her LinkedIn

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Speaker 4: profile pictures showed her in a graduation cap and gown

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Speaker 4: in front of Philadelphia City Hall. I did a double take.

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Speaker 4: I've taken pictures in that exact spot with friends. I've

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Speaker 4: walked down that street countless times because I lived in

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Speaker 4: Philadelphia in my twenties around the same time Lindsay took

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Speaker 4: that picture. Lindsay's face was smiley and friendly, looking so unpretentious,

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Speaker 4: just sweet, like someone i'd want to be friends with.

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Speaker 4: I felt weirdly drawn to her, even though our lives

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Speaker 4: from the outside looked like they moved in almost parallel lines.

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Speaker 4: They were so different. So I wrote to Lindsay and

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Speaker 4: we started talking.

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Speaker 1: Lindsay said, while Allen and I were attending middle school,

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Speaker 1: she'd been selected to join an inner sanctum of her community,

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Speaker 1: an elite group inside River Road Fellowship that required her

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Speaker 1: to give even more of herself away. How did this

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Speaker 1: attempt at utopia turn into something twisted? How was it

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Speaker 1: that even the people who saw what happened would deny

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Speaker 1: what was in front of their eyes? And though Lindsay

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Speaker 1: was small, one of the youngest of the group, she

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Speaker 1: would be the one to reveal the secret that was

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Speaker 1: hidden inside.

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Speaker 4: Before she was in River Road, before Minnesota, Lindsay lived

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Speaker 4: in Pennsylvania with her parents and three siblings, growing up

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Speaker 4: in the nineties. She was a product of the time.

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Speaker 4: She loved her beanie babies, the Backstreet boys, and musicals.

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Speaker 2: Like Annie, I loved to entertain people and saying and

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Speaker 2: do all the voices.

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Speaker 4: Her dad had a soft pretzel business, and her mom

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Speaker 4: stayed at home.

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Speaker 2: She was a talker. My mom loved to talk, could

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Speaker 2: talk to anyone with her hair and so animated.

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Speaker 4: She wore hot pink lipstick and went through what Lindsay

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Speaker 4: calls her mom's sequin phase. Lindsay was really into gymnastics.

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Speaker 2: I loved the power of it. Was almost like daring.

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Speaker 4: Her dad made a homemade balance beam so she could practice,

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Speaker 4: and her parents took her to see the US women's

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Speaker 4: gymnastics team on tour after they won gold at the

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Speaker 4: nineteen ninety six Olympics. Lindsay could picture herself on those

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Speaker 4: mats and beams, like a fantasy future playing out in

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Speaker 4: front of her, so distant but suddenly so close. But

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Speaker 4: she'd never get to pursue this dream because this was

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Speaker 4: the year nineteen ninety six. When her parents opened their

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Speaker 4: door to a stranger. In November of that year, Lindsay

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Speaker 4: was nine years old. Her parents said they were having

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Speaker 4: some dinner guests, some friends of a friend. The guests

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Speaker 4: had traveled all the way from Minnesota to Pennsylvania to

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Speaker 4: meet Lindsay's family for the first time. One of these

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Speaker 4: guests was Victor Bernard.

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Speaker 2: That's the first time that they met him.

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Speaker 4: And what did he look like at that time?

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Speaker 2: Dark hair, some sort of facial hair, more on the

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Speaker 2: like fit side.

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Speaker 1: Victor was there with a woman we'll call her jan

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Speaker 1: though that's not her real name. Jan worked with him

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Speaker 1: kind of like a second in command. Lindsay said she

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Speaker 1: had a hard looking face with long pin straight brown

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Speaker 1: hair and bangs.

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Speaker 2: They smoked. I remember that they smoked cigarettes, And I

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Speaker 2: remember Victor being like, you know, when you're little and

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Speaker 2: you can just tell an adult who carries like a

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Speaker 2: lot of authority, and you kind of just you could

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Speaker 2: tell that from him.

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Speaker 4: What about him do you think indicated to you at

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Speaker 4: the time that he was someone of authority.

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Speaker 2: I think his intensity. He was very intense, and I

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Speaker 2: think just the way he carried himself almost with purpose,

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Speaker 2: like a confidence. Yeah. He just didn't seem like a warm,

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Speaker 2: fun kind of guy. Just very intense. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 2: that's the word.

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Speaker 1: Victor was there to talk to Lindsay's parents about a

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Speaker 1: group he had started. He said he and his wife

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Speaker 1: and children and a bunch of other families all lived

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Speaker 1: together on a plot of land in Minnesota. They farmed

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Speaker 1: and worshiped God, and Victor wanted Lindsay's family to try

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Speaker 1: it out too.

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Speaker 2: I was kind of really indifferent at that time, had

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Speaker 2: no clue what was going on, so oblivious to any

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Speaker 2: like adult conversations that were happening. But me and my

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Speaker 2: sisters we love to dance, so I remember we put

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Speaker 2: on like a show for them. I don't know if

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Speaker 2: you guys did that.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we did that all the time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we made up this huge dance. The house

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Speaker 2: we were living at the time had a huge family room.

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Speaker 2: I remember like running from one end to the other

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Speaker 2: and lifting up one of my siblings in the air

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Speaker 2: and we'd do our jumps in our leaps and pretty

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Speaker 2: sure they clapped.

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Speaker 1: Jan seemed nice. She told Lindsay about the place they lived.

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Speaker 1: They took care of all kinds of animals.

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Speaker 2: She was telling us about all the kids who lived there,

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Speaker 2: and she said they had a pond and a lake

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Speaker 2: that they could go swimming in in the summer. I

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, that sounds fun.

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Speaker 1: Big decisions about Lindsay's future were being made that night.

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Speaker 1: Unbeknownst to her, Lindsay's mom pulled her aside. Afterward, Victor

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Speaker 1: had some thoughts on Lindsay's life.

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Speaker 2: Somehow he convinced my mother to take me out of gymnastics.

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Speaker 2: I remember my mom sat down with me like shortly

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Speaker 2: after they left and said, when Jesus Christ comes back,

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Speaker 2: he's not gonna say, oh, Lindsay, I'm so proud of you,

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Speaker 2: because she got so many gold medals and gymnastics. She

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Speaker 2: just talked about, you know what Jesus Christ would care

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Speaker 2: about when we get to heaven, and it definitely wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be getting gold medal at the Olympics. He's gonna judge

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Speaker 2: us by our character here on earth and what we

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Speaker 2: did for him. And I remember crying and being so

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Speaker 2: upset and like telling her that, but my dream was

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Speaker 2: to become an Olympian. And I don't remember it being

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Speaker 2: like a super long conversation. She probably didn't really think

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Speaker 2: about how it would affect me. I guess there was

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Speaker 2: really no arguing, So yeah, they pulled me out of gymnastics.

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Speaker 1: For as long as Lindsay can remember, it seemed her

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Speaker 1: parents were always searching.

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Speaker 2: They always were the type of people who needed to

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Speaker 2: follow someone.

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Speaker 1: Long before they joined River Road Fellowship, their social circle

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Speaker 1: was defined by a different group of families who had

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Speaker 1: all met through a kind of church. They were part

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Speaker 1: of a Christian organization called The Way International or The Way.

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Speaker 1: The Way was founded by an evangelical pastor who started

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Speaker 1: preaching his less orthodox ideas about the Bible on radio

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Speaker 1: programs In the nineteen forties, he recruited members around the

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Speaker 1: world and introduced new followers to his belief system through

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Speaker 1: a course called Power for Abundant Living. The vibe I

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Speaker 1: get is self improvement mixed with religion, but The Way

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Speaker 1: was all also known for its cult like tendencies. Some

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Speaker 1: former members used words like love bombing and brainwashing to

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Speaker 1: describe it. They tell stories of constant supervision and sleep deprivation,

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Speaker 1: of being singled out or embarrassed into submission if they

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Speaker 1: tried to resist the leader's directions, or even shut out

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Speaker 1: completely so no one was allowed to talk or interact

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Speaker 1: with them. Some said they got firearm training and were

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Speaker 1: warned they might need to use it. Victor Bernard was

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Speaker 1: a member of the Way too, but Lindsay's parents didn't

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Speaker 1: know him yet. In the meantime, they hosted fellowships for

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Speaker 1: the Way in their home. These informal religious services slash

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Speaker 1: prayer groups. They would talk about their unusual interpretations of

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Speaker 1: the Bible, and sometimes they spoke in tongues. It was

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Speaker 1: all interwoven until Lindsay's childhood.

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Speaker 2: And I remember my mom telling me stories that I

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Speaker 2: was speaking in tongues almost before I could talk, which

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Speaker 2: I don't. I mean, you'd think that that would just

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Speaker 2: be babbel.

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Speaker 1: Then yeah, you're like, is that just baby babel?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, And she would say we'd go to the

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Speaker 2: park all the time and she'd push me on the

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Speaker 2: swings and I'd be playing and we'd be like singing,

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Speaker 2: you know, this little light of mine, like all those

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Speaker 2: songs and speaking in tongues and yeah, So I had

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Speaker 2: grown up with this.

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Speaker 1: When she got a little older, Lindsey was expected to

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Speaker 1: participate in fellowships, which made her nervous. Speaking in tongues

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Speaker 1: scared her the most. She'd have to speak in tongues

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Speaker 1: and then provide a translation for the group.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I can remember from the time I was

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Speaker 2: probably ten years old, pre planning what I would say.

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Speaker 4: Did you think that other people did that?

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Speaker 1: Or did you just think that everyone else seemed to

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Speaker 1: actually be channeling God?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 2: I thought everyone else was channeling the Lord. I was like,

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Speaker 2: what is wrongs me? You know, like it just it

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Speaker 2: seemed so hard. I mean maybe maybe in the back

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Speaker 2: my mind, I thought, you know, maybe some of the

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Speaker 2: other kids had trouble, but for some people it seemed

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Speaker 2: to come so naturally, you know, and they were just

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Speaker 2: so especially some of the adults. It was so beautiful

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Speaker 2: what they were saying and the words they would be

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Speaker 2: so encouraging and uplifting, and I was like, this can't

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Speaker 2: be made up, you know, like they have to know

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Speaker 2: what they're doing. But little on me here is stuck

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Speaker 2: with this tongue and having to write the words ahead

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Speaker 2: of time. Yeah, it does unstressful. Yeah, it was like

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Speaker 2: my hands are starting to sweat just remembering it.

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Speaker 1: After the founder of the Way died in the mid eighties,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people started leaving the group. The collapse

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Speaker 1: left her parents searching once again, which led them to Amway,

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Speaker 1: the infamous multi level marketing company that sells health and

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Speaker 1: beauty products, among other things. It felt an awful lot

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Speaker 1: like a pyramid scheme, and they were like.

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Speaker 2: Super gung ho about that, and like almost making vision

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Speaker 2: boards of the house we wanted in the cars that

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Speaker 2: we wanted, and they had all these different levels like ruby, diamond, emerald,

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Speaker 2: and like my mom would write like go diamond with

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Speaker 2: her colored eyeliner on her mirror in the bathroom. Maybe

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Speaker 2: they just never would have been those parents that would

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Speaker 2: have protected their children as much or something, you know,

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Speaker 2: like they just they almost needed somebody to look up to.

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Speaker 4: Emily didn't last, though, and a few months after their

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Speaker 4: dinner with a Victor, Lindsay's family decided to visit River

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Speaker 4: Road Fellowship for the first time. The first trip to

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Speaker 4: Minnesota was just for a visit. The drive was long,

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Speaker 4: especially for a ten year old like Lindsay. She watched

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Speaker 4: out the window the landscape changed from nondescript highway to lush,

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Speaker 4: green pines. Lindsay imagines Laura Ingles Wilder from her beloved

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Speaker 4: Little House on the Prairie books. Traveling through this exact

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Speaker 4: landscape and a covered wagon in the eighteen hundreds, it

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Speaker 4: felt like an adventure. It took them twenty hours to

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Speaker 4: reach the town of Finlanson, Minnesota.

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Speaker 2: Have y'all ever been to Finlisten? Okay? So it's a

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Speaker 2: town I think of three hundred and fifteen people. It

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Speaker 2: is very tiny. We drove through like the town like downtown,

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Speaker 2: and my dad was like you could blink and you'd

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Speaker 2: be through it. There was a pea trees, gas station

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Speaker 2: and bait tackle shop joined together, and then a post

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Speaker 2: office and that was pretty much it I remember us

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Speaker 2: joking that you could see, you know, in movie you

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Speaker 2: see the tumble weeds blowing through the streets. I swore

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Speaker 2: I saw one, but I probably just made it up

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Speaker 2: in my head because it was like nothing I'd ever

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Speaker 2: seen before. We drove through. There was a egg ranch

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Speaker 2: and it smelled terrible, like huge buildings filled with chickens

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Speaker 2: and the smell. I was like, what is this? That

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Speaker 2: just smelled like crap, really really bad. And we just

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Speaker 2: keep driving.

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Speaker 4: The longer they drove, the more excited Lindsay got. She

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Speaker 4: was building up this utopia in her head. Finally they

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Speaker 4: turned off the main road.

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Speaker 2: It's this bump and then it's the gravel. There's the

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Speaker 2: dust everywhere, and you hear all the rocks flying and

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Speaker 2: hitting the car. And at that point we knew that

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Speaker 2: we were close because they told us like, when she

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Speaker 2: hit the gravel road, you're close. So I remember like

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Speaker 2: sitting up and looking out and it's just trees everyone,

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Speaker 2: and you know, like old fences.

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Speaker 4: Then in the distance among the trees, between two big

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Speaker 4: wooden pillars, they saw the sign the Shepherd's Camp.

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Speaker 2: And we turn in. It was beautiful, I mean, the

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Speaker 2: camp was gorgeous. It was tall trees everywhere in green

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Speaker 2: grass and a pond that led out into a lake,

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Speaker 2: and it just smelled like pine trees. I don't think

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Speaker 2: I'd ever smelled so much pine in my life, like

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Speaker 2: very crisp and clean. We could see the dining hall

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Speaker 2: and like people started pouring out. All these kids were

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Speaker 2: running out of the dining hall, and I just remember

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Speaker 2: being really excited. I don't think I was shy to

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Speaker 2: meet the kids at all. I was like, I've heard

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Speaker 2: so much about you, and the kids were so n

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Speaker 2: wanted to like hang out and show us around and

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Speaker 2: play and wanted to know all about our lives. They

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Speaker 2: lived very different than us, so many people on one property,

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Speaker 2: you know. I was like it just it seemed fun, though,

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Speaker 2: Like if you had all these kids to play with

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Speaker 2: every single day, I mean, you have never ending play dates.

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Speaker 4: It's the dream.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I remember doing like cartwheels and back handsprings

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Speaker 2: for them, and they thought that was so cool that

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Speaker 2: I could do that stuff.

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Speaker 4: Lindsay's family stayed for a week. Lindsay had never spent

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Speaker 4: so much time outside.

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Speaker 2: I remember getting like very sappy, and my hands had

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Speaker 2: never had like tree sap on them. Before you know.

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Speaker 2: I remember there were fields where the grass was so

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Speaker 2: high and you would go on your hands and knees

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Speaker 2: to make tunnels through the grass. You couldn't see the

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Speaker 2: tunnels if you were standing outside, but if you found

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Speaker 2: the entrance, the grass would be flattened where you made

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Speaker 2: your little tunnel. So yeah, we played like all through

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Speaker 2: the woods made forts. The further you went down the road,

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Speaker 2: like deeper into the camp, the more woods there were.

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Speaker 4: When they weren't playing in the woods, the kids helped

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Speaker 4: take care of the farm animals. In this utopia, everyone

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Speaker 4: had a role in their survival, working the land and

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Speaker 4: raising their own livestock. Let them be mostly self sufficient.

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Speaker 4: They let them stay close to their profit, away from

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Speaker 4: the world.

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Speaker 2: They had sheep and cows and pigs and rabbits chickens.

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Speaker 2: But it was all fun like I just joined in

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Speaker 2: like I had known them my entire life.

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Speaker 4: At meal time Victor took the stage, he told them

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Speaker 4: Christ will return. Lindsay took her cues from the adults

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Speaker 4: in the room. When he spoke, everyone listened.

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Speaker 2: So I remember meals being so long, hours long at times,

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Speaker 2: and we'd have to sit there, and I remember my

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00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:12,159
Speaker 2: mom was like infatuated with Victor and loved everything about

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Speaker 2: the camp and furiously taking notes. Anytime he spoke, he

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Speaker 2: could be like so charismatic and just suck you in,

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Speaker 2: like the way he moved his words his voice, and

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Speaker 2: then the urgency too. I mean, every time he preached

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Speaker 2: it was always you know, the Lord is coming back,

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Speaker 2: The Lord is coming back.

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Speaker 4: Lindsay's mom believed Victor when he said Jesus was going

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Speaker 4: to return, and when Jesus returned, he would find them

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Speaker 4: there in Minnesota at the Shepherd's Camp. Lindsay had an

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Speaker 4: image in her head of all of Victor's followers being

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Speaker 4: sucked into the sky.

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Speaker 2: Like the rapture kind of And that's how I always

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Speaker 2: envisioned it is, okay, we're all here, and then whoop

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Speaker 2: everyone up in the air.

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Speaker 4: Even when he wasn't preaching everyone and wanted to be

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Speaker 4: around Victor, he might look you in the eye and

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Speaker 4: compliment you in a way that made you feel amazing.

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Speaker 2: It was almost like if your favorite singer or actor,

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Speaker 2: if they acknowledged you paid you a compliment. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you would be on like a high. I know mine

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Speaker 2: would be Kevin Gossner, But I think because he had

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Speaker 2: been portrayed as this man of God and so important

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Speaker 2: and put up on that pedestal. If he spoke to me,

399
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 2: it was like a really big deal. There was that

400
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Speaker 2: feeling of you know when you hold your breath and

401
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 2: you have butterflies and you know something exciting is going

402
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Speaker 2: to happen, and you kind of feel light on your feet.

403
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Speaker 2: That's how you would feel. Sometimes. There were also times

404
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 2: and I would get so shy around him. There were

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Speaker 2: times where he could be so charming and he would

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Speaker 2: make you feel like the most important person in the

407
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Speaker 2: entire world. And there were other times where he was

408
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 2: so scary and demanding, and then if somebody maybe challenged

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Speaker 2: him or went against him, there was a lot of

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Speaker 2: public humiliation and you were so afraid of him. There

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Speaker 2: were times when Victor would get so mad at somebody

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Speaker 2: in the church and like he'd throw a chair. I

413
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Speaker 2: remember him spitting in people's faces, getting mad at kids

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Speaker 2: for not listening. I remember thinking, oh, my gosh, like

415
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Speaker 2: he is. It made you never want to do anything

416
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 2: to make him upset, like you'd just be on your

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Speaker 2: best best behavior.

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Speaker 4: After the week was over, Lindsay's family drove home to Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 4: but Victor was still in there lives. They read his books,

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00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 4: he gave them advice, and they drove out to Minnesota

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Speaker 4: for more visits to the camp. It was during one

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00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 4: of those visits in nineteen ninety eight, that Victor made

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00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 4: a big announcement and an evening meeting that only the

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Speaker 4: adults attended. On this special night, Victor took off his

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Speaker 4: wedding ring in front of everyone. He told the congregation

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Speaker 4: he was forsaking his earthly wife. He would move out

427
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Speaker 4: of the house where his wife and their four sons lived.

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Speaker 4: From now on, he would be married to the church.

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Speaker 2: I remember my mom told me either that night or

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Speaker 2: the next day. She was so excited like fill me

431
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Speaker 2: in on what had happened at the meeting.

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Speaker 4: Around this time, Victor met with Lindsay's parents and gave

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Speaker 4: them an ultimatum.

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Speaker 2: You're either moving to Minnesota and you're joining our church,

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00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 2: or you have to cut ties. By the end of

436
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 2: that meeting, my parents had decided to join Victor and

437
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 2: make the move.

438
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 4: Lindsay's mom was excited to make the change. She wanted

439
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 4: to be near Victor.

440
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 2: I honestly think if my mom wasn't in the picture,

441
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 2: my dad wouldn't have gone.

442
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 4: And her parents worried if they weren't in Minnesota, Jesus

443
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 4: might not be able to find them when he returned.

444
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 2: I think it happened pretty quickly that they sold the house.

445
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 2: We packed up our belongings, and we made the drive

446
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 2: out there to the Shepherd's Camp. I thought it would

447
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,159
Speaker 2: be just like how it was when we visited, getting

448
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 2: to do animal care, playing soccer, ice skating in the winter, snowmobiling.

449
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 2: I never thought it would develop into what it was.

450
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,239
Speaker 2: Right before we arrived in Minnesota, on our way to

451
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 2: move there, my mom was joking, maybe kind of being serious,

452
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 2: but that she should put on her wedding dress so

453
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 2: that she would be in her wedding dress when we

454
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 2: arrived at the camp, basically saying she was giving her life,

455
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 2: you know, which if you think of it as so sick,

456
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 2: like my dad was right, you know, like I just

457
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 2: I don't understand what was going with their heads, and

458
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 2: I don't know that I'll ever be able to understand

459
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 2: what they were thinking.

460
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 4: Do you think it was almost like she felt as

461
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 4: though she was marrying the camp, the community, almost kind

462
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 4: of victor. Yeah, I think so, Lindsay's mom was ready

463
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 4: to give up everything, and that's what Victor wanted. Does

464
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 4: anything stand out to you as your first big memory

465
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 4: from early on when you first started living there.

466
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 2: I do remember one time my sister got in a

467
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 2: lot of trouble. She's the youngest girl, she would have

468
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 2: been five. I don't even know what she did, but

469
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 2: somebody like picked her up and shook her so hard

470
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 2: that she peed herself. And I'm feeling so sad and

471
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 2: upset for her. I don't even think I knew what

472
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 2: to do. Our parents had punished us a lot growing up,

473
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 2: but nothing to that extent to where you would pee yourself.

474
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 4: And what was the adult attitude towards it. Did anyone

475
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 4: seem surprised that that harsh of a punishment, No was happening.

476
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 2: No, nobody seemed surprised at all.

477
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 4: What was strange in the outside world was normal here,

478
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 4: and Linda would have to get used to this new life,

479
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 4: this world with its own rules. Victor said. The members

480
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 4: of River Road had to leave behind their earthly things,

481
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 4: anything that would pull them away from Jesus. So one day,

482
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 4: the families gathered in the middle of a gated field

483
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 4: near one of the barns. They lit a massive bonfire

484
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 4: that took up a large part of the yard. People

485
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 4: started to their belongings to the field. One by one,

486
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 4: they threw them onto the fire. The physical reminders of

487
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 4: their past began to burn.

488
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 2: I do remember that feeling like what like there were

489
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 2: couches in there, somebody drove their motorcycle. They got rid

490
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 2: of it. Jewelry, pictures, videos, clothes. I remember we had

491
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 2: these like Christian like kids songs on tape, and we

492
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 2: got rid of those. I didn't really understand it. I

493
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 2: was like, why do we have to get rid of

494
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 2: all this stuff? It was piled high at that point,

495
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 2: I mean, being twelve and tiny, I thought it looked

496
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 2: as big as a house. It was hot, so hot.

497
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,719
Speaker 4: Lindsay didn't own much back then, but she knew she

498
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 4: was expected to sacrifice something. She went and got the

499
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 4: teddy bear she'd had since before she could remember.

500
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 2: I think he's the only thing that reminds me of

501
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: my earthly life, so I'll throw him in there.

502
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 4: She tossed her bear on the fire and watched it burn.

503
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 4: She felt a deep sadness inside her, but also guilt

504
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 4: and the sense that that sadness was a bad influence,

505
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 4: that she should stop that feeling because that sadness might

506
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 4: hold her back from living for Jesus' return. It was

507
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 4: one of the first times she would learn to question

508
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 4: her emotions, one of the first times she would have

509
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 4: to give something up for the religious group her parents

510
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 4: had decided to join. The fire grew bigger. She felt

511
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 4: the heat on her face.

512
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: Sparks coming out of it. It was wild, It really was.

513
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 2: I've never seen anything like that in my life. The

514
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 2: flames just dancing. It felt like they were reaching to

515
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 2: the sky. It lasted for three days. The fire continually burned.

516
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: Coming up this season on.

517
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 3: The Turning this especially Agent Jackie Doer the FBI Baltimore Division.

518
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 3: It is ten oh four am on Wednesday, March twenty seven,

519
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 3: twenty thirteen. How did your parents get into what's refer

520
00:33:58,680 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 3: to as a cult?

521
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 5: I remember feeling like I couldn't say no. I didn't

522
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,719
Speaker 5: even know if my parents would want me back because

523
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 5: they gave me to him. I just remember feeling almost

524
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 5: like I had no other options, that the only thing

525
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 5: to say was yes. That I would say, and all

526
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 5: ten of us said yes.

527
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 1: How can one person control so many people and change

528
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:24,879
Speaker 1: their will.

529
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 2: I don't care what happens when Jesus Christ comes back.

530
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 2: Whatever happens to me, it cannot possibly be worse than this.

531
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 2: That thought scared me. My heart was beating out of

532
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 2: my chest. I felt like I could hear it. He

533
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 2: was talking about how much God loved me, and how

534
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 2: special I was, and how God had chosen me. We

535
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 2: had these oil lanterns on the walls, and we were

536
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 2: all just standing in a line. When we're chosen, we

537
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 2: had decided to give our lives. This is almost like

538
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 2: the ultimate sacrifice.

539
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 4: The Turning is a production of Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts.

540
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 4: It's written and produced by Erica Lance and Me. Our

541
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 4: story editor is Emily Foreman. Mixing and sound designed by

542
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 4: James Trout. Grace Doe is our production assistant. Fact checking

543
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 4: by Andrea Lopez Cruzado. Our executive producers are John Parratti

544
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 4: and Jessica Alpert at Rococo Punch, and Katrina Norvell and

545
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 4: Nikki Etur at iHeart Podcasts. You can follow us on

546
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 4: Instagram at Rococo Punch, and you can reach out via

547
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 4: email The Turning at Rococo Punch dot com. I'm Alan

548
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 4: Lance Lesser, Thanks for listening,