WEBVTT - Getting Decarbonization Megaprojects Off the Ground 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.640 This is Tom Rowlands Reese and you're listening to Switched 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:04.880 on the podcast brought to you by b and EF, 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:06.880 and today we bring you a recording from our b 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:09.639 and EF Summit Munich, which took place on the twentieth 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:12.399 of May. The panel featured on today's show is titled 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:16.520 getting Industrial Decarbonization mega Projects on their Feet evaluating early 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:19.680 success with large scale carbon capture hubs in the UK, 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:23.080 carbon storage facilities in Denmark, the Netherlands and Italy, and 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:26.640 cross border carbon transit facilities being built in Norway. Europe 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:30.240 has been making quick work of successfully executing large industrial 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:34.680 decarbonization infrastructure facilities. But just how have policymakers managed to 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:37.559 facilitate installation of these massive projects and what can other 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:40.880 companies and governments glean from their successes. On today's show, 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:43.519 the panelists share their learnings and discuss what forms of 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:46.199 policy have proved successful and what more is required to 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:50.400 facilitate further growth in the sector. The panels include Kristin Nishka, 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:53.360 Director General and Head of Climate Industry and Technology for 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:57.520 the Norwegian Ministry of Energy, Andres Hoffmann, Deputy Permanent Secretary 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:00.360 for the Danish Ministry for Climate Energy and util is 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:03.960 Deek ben Shop, chair of the Border Mission Possible Partnership, 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:07.080 and Stephanie Heisinger, head of Unit Low Carbon Solutions for 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:10.280 DT Climber at the European Commission. The panel was moderated 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:14.000 by Martin Tangler, BNF's head of Hydrogen Research. For more 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:17.880 information regarding BNF summits, including our upcoming BNF Summit New 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:20.319 Delhi on August twenty second, and t V recordings from 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:24.440 our previous events, head to about BNF dot com slash summit. Now, 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:25.920 let's say it from our panel. 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:38.240 At least three things are needed in other Industrial League 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:43.800 organization projects to go ahead, and that's government support, infrastructure 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:46.640 and demand. And the thing that we will discuss, the 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:49.680 question we will discuss today with our four brilliant panelists 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:53.240 is if you are a government, how can you best 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:58.560 foster these conditions in your country? And let's start by 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:03.440 looking at the current situation with a question to Dick. So, Dick, 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:07.720 you are at the Mission Possible Partnership MPP, and on 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:11.160 your website there's a beautiful map of more than five 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:15.800 hundred industrial decarbanization projects and the one common problem that 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:17.880 they all have is that very few of them have 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:21.200 actually reached a final investment decision or FID. I think 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:23.960 it was eight between April and November, if i'm if 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:27.200 I'm not mistaken. So beyond the three things that government 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:31.079 incentives infrastructure demand, is there anything else that these projects 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:32.600 need in order to go ahead? 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:35.480 Yes, so, thank you very much and good morning. 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:36.160 Yeah. 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:38.320 The Global Project Trecker is one of the things we 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:40.600 do in order, yes, to keep track of the progress, 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:42.560 we map it against where do we need to be 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:46.560 in twenty thirty and worldwide in the seven harder to 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:50.800 abate sectors from steel, ce mental, aluminium, aviation fuel, we 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:55.280 need about seven hundred plants in operation by twenty thirty. 0:02:56.560 --> 0:03:00.440 Perhaps we have around twenty percent now at FID under 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:05.440 construction or in operation. And if you quoted the progress 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:09.000 between April and November last year, it's not going fast enough. 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:10.920 We'll have an update in a couple of weeks time 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:15.200 next half year update to see where we are. So 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:18.160 it's not that we have not started at the beginning 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:21.360 is there, But the pace and the question of the 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:27.560 scaling is absolutely important, and it's not going fast enough. 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:33.560 I think fortunately that the and you see that in 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.280 the European Commission and in national governments as well, that 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:40.680 the attention for industrial decarbanization is growing. It's thirty percent 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:43.760 of emissions. So it's not just the energy sector, it's 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:47.040 the industrial sector as well. It's and it's in the 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:50.040 heart of what we are currently living heavy we have 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:52.119 to have. We have the clean deal, the green deal, 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:56.240 the clean deal. We have finally in Europe attention for 0:03:56.360 --> 0:04:00.000 competitiveness because green stuff only get built if it's competitive. 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:01.240 Is the Drugy Report. 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:05.920 We see progress there and I guess with security, the 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:08.840 whole question of what are we producing in Europe is 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:14.480 becoming more and more important. And inside this trilemma between clean, secure, 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.279 and competitive you find the question what's going to happen 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:22.839 to the European industry in general terms? What we have 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:25.640 learned and I think the Potsdam Institute did great work 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:29.200 on that. On the policy mix, you need three elements. 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:33.440 You need an element of pricing see carbon pricing, see 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:37.480 the ets, which Europe has other geographies only to a 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:42.080 certain extent. You need an element of support, which Europe 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:44.880 has to a certain extent, which others had more at 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:48.080 least us with now the uncertainty around it. And you 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:53.000 need regulations, and for example, one of the things that 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:57.080 really worked in Europe was the aviation mandate, the blending mandate, 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:00.240 because if you look at the tracker, the number of 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:04.640 sustainable aviation fuel plants is really growing. The investment is 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:08.080 happening because of that certainty that is there because of 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:13.000 the mandate. So get this policy mix right. And in 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:16.400 the regulatory part, I would say we have to focus 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:21.600 on the demand side because subsidies give it the deficits 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.560 defense spending, they won't go over the moon in Europe. 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:28.960 You can't do it FIA pricing alone. I think demand 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:31.960 side interventions, but will probably come to that is the 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:33.279 key to be looking at now. 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:36.680 Okay, so as the government carrots, government sticks, and demand 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:39.440 side is what you find to be the most important. 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:44.520 Let's talk about the financing the government carrots for them 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:49.200 for a moment, and let's start with you, Kristin. So, 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:55.960 Norway has almost fully financed one massive carbon capture and 0:05:56.040 --> 0:06:01.960 storage project, which is called long Ship in Norway, and 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:05.880 you've pretty much paid for almost the entire project. Now 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:09.919 that that project is almost about to come online, is 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:13.040 the private sector going to be able to take over? 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:15.360 Is that enough to get the sector going. 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:18.520 Well, thank you for that question. 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:21.040 I think it takes more than one project for this 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:23.400 market to come online. But I think it's important to 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:24.960 keep in mind that this is not sort of a 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:28.400 static picture. In a way, it's dynamic. We started working 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:31.200 on the long Ship, which consists of you to capture 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:36.359 from a cement facility, be hydlriy materials, ways to energy facility. 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:37.240 And alslow on by Hochlin. 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.000 And then it's the Northern Light Storage Solutions on the 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:41.080 west coast of Norway. 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:43.159 We started working on that. 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:46.680 In twenty fourteen twenty fifteen, where we saw that from 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:50.880 a sort of government perspective in Norway, the Climate Mitigator, 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:54.560 if we are to reach the climate targets in the 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:59.159 Paris Agreement, it's not possible without CCS. So we started 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:03.720 working on that as a public private partnership to develop. 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:04.600 The CCS technology. 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:08.680 And one of the aims for the Longship project is 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:13.440 that Norway and Europe are to reach sort of the 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:16.800 climate targets as at the lowest possible cost. So this 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:22.800 is our contribution to the entire sort of CCS development 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:23.880 as a technology. 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:27.600 And then what's next and then is this enough? 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:30.440 Well, what we've done and what's important to us with 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:34.600 the longship project is to share the knowledge. We have 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:38.480 de risked a lot of the CCS chain. Northern Lines 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:42.880 recently made a commercial Phase two decisions, so they have 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:46.960 spare capacity. They were open for business for European industry. 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:53.280 It's well, there are discussions on going for C two 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:57.040 storage on the Norwegian continental shelf. And then we are 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:59.680 also from a Norwegian perspective, now assess saying so what's 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:02.360 next for you to capture for the rest of the 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:05.320 Norwegian industry, which is a debate in our way. 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:09.000 So I think this is it's not a static picture. 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:12.960 The different countries have sort of different approaches. 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:15.360 It's important to. 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:19.560 See this as a it's a joint solution. We have 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.880 a common target here and then there's an element of competition, 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.720 but that is just it's good to have that competition. 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:30.240 So you said, there's some learnings that you've derived from 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:34.040 this for not just Norway but for the global community. 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:37.160 What are the what is the one thing that you 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:39.240 think you did really really. 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:43.240 Well in I think what made this happen is that we. 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:49.880 Had a trust between the government, the authorities and the 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:54.160 private companies and a common goal that this was a 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:59.839 project that we really wanted to see happening together. And 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:06.000 then there are risks in the chain between the capture 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:10.200 and storage that we need to sort of be aware 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:15.000 of and deal with. But I think actually from a 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:17.560 sort of from our perspective, the trust that this is 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:20.760 something that we all want to see happening was actually 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:23.840 the most important success factor in that project. 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:26.360 Okay, so you were you were one of the biggest 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:28.840 first projects out there, and you show that this is possible. 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:32.360 And the follow up question that is was the one 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:33.720 thing you would not repeat? 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:42.199 Mm hm hm. That's a difficult one. I don't know, actually. 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:43.920 I think. 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:50.680 For in the Launschip project, the States serve as a 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:54.280 cushion between the capture side and the transportant storage side. 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:57.800 That we won't be able to do that for the 0:09:57.800 --> 0:09:58.679 coming projects. 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:00.080 So I think maybe. 0:09:59.880 --> 0:10:02.800 That that is something that we did to actually make 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:08.200 this project go or happen. But it's not a role 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:11.480 that the state can take sort of indefinitely for the 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:12.599 coming projects. 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:13.960 Right, so the market will eventually need. 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:15.600 To the market will have to take over. 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:18.400 And what we've done with this project is sort of 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:21.439 to get a good overview over the different risks because 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:23.680 these are mega projects. 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:25.679 It's I don't know in. 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.400 Euros, two point five billion euros or something for the 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:34.680 entire chain. Norwegian State is contributing some roughly two billion 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:37.600 euros into this, so two thirds of course, so maybe 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:41.439 three of them. So I think the sort of the 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:46.000 risk picture is something that we've contributed with. 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:50.280 Great I wonder if Andrews will have any comments on that, 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:56.000 because Andrews Denmark is taking a very different approach from Norway. 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:57.160 Is that right? 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:01.800 Norway has financed this one big project long ship, whereas 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:05.640 what just happened in Denmark is you've shortlisted ten companies 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:09.040 on Friday for a three point eight billion euros or 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.440 so of funding and they can all get this funding, 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:14.880 but the condition is they actually have to start storing. 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:16.240 They have to store that. 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:19.520 Carbon before they get any money, whereas in Norway that 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:21.520 money came up front. So what do you think is 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:23.240 the advantage of that kind of an approach. 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:26.319 I think we had great lounges in Denmark then when 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:28.560 we started designing policy back in twenty twenty. I mean, 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:30.599 Norway has been doing this for fifteen years, so we 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:33.800 could sort of piggyback on some of their learnings and 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:37.200 also from the UK, and I think when we started 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:39.440 designing policy, I think we had sort of three main 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:41.640 things we wanted to solve. I mean, first of all, 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:43.880 we really believe that this should be market based in 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:47.520 the end, so everything we did on the way towards 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:49.360 that should enable that. 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:51.040 Market to be created. So I think that was sort 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:52.840 of the oral A vision. 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:56.160 And then secondly, what we heard was what was really 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:59.600 challenging in this sector was this whole chicken and egg 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.160 You wouldn't if you had the storage, that wouldn't be 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:05.840 developed because you know, nobody capturing and nobody would make pipelines. 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:07.960 Because so all of this, I mean, how do you 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:12.599 have a really complicated value value chain created at the 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:16.160 same time. So we wanted to fix that. And then finally, 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:18.920 we had all of these rooms about billions of euros 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:22.520 being thrown at policy sort of projects that never developed. 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:25.200 So we're quite worried that we would waste CUD out 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.640 of government money. So based on that, we sort of 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:29.440 had the decision that, Okay, if you don't want to 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:32.520 waste money, at least we should only pay if they store, 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:36.760 So if they store it, we pay. By definition, you 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:39.880 can't lose money. The second one was we really want 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:42.720 to have that you shouldn't only be storing, you should 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:45.320 also sort of manage the entire value chain. So the 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:48.040 winner of our sobsity would be responsible for the entire 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:50.080 value chain and would have to pay for all of 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.280 these have to create the contracts and all of that. 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:55.559 So by that we hope in some way to sort 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:57.880 of solve the chicken and egg problem at least by 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:00.400 if somebody have all the money they need to have 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:03.439 all the other parts of the chain aligned with their deadlines, 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:06.520 and thereby, hopefully by twenty thirty all of these things 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:08.840 would be aligned. I think that was sort of the 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:11.079 name thinking about the design. 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:14.600 And the three point eight billion euros that you'll be 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:18.560 giving to those companies. Is that enough to get the 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:20.280 sector going in Denmark? 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:23.120 I think it's enough to get quite a lot of 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:26.960 tons of sew to start. I think if you look 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:29.360 at it, we had a first subsidy scheme which was 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:32.200 won by us. Did they would be starting up capture 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:35.480 within a few months. Actually they would be storing in Norway. 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:38.520 Thank you so much for that for the first part. 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:41.079 And then I think based on that auction that was 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:42.400 zero point five million tons. 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:43.880 The next one is much much bigger. 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:48.240 So we're pretty sure that this auction would develop enough 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:51.520 U two capacity to meet our seventy percent climate target 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:52.240 in twenty thirty. 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:54.480 And that's really the main reason. 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:57.680 And although if you compare to Norway, I mean Norway 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:01.760 has a bit more policy and creating a new market, 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:05.520 I think Denmark's policy was really solving a problem with 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:07.479 too much carbon dioxide. 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:09.480 So it's all a slightly different approach. 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:14.360 Ours is clearly a climate policy. It's just a very 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:17.280 sort of a cheap way, but a cheaper way than 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:19.000 some of the other policy we could have chosen. 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:22.920 Okay, so it will get us certainly a good part 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:26.280 of the way. And the interesting thing about Denmark is 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:30.920 you are looking at onshore storage, whereas the Norwegian project 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.560 is offshore. So if you're taking it from Denmark to Norway, 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:36.400 you need to put it on a ship liquefy it 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:38.000 then taking on a pipeline. 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:39.080 That pipeline is pretty long. 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:40.840 And bears it under the sea, which is quite a 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:42.440 lot more expensive than what you're looking at. 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:44.280 Right. Yeah, I think that was the main reason for 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:45.080 going on shore. 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:48.400 So and then of course Denmark is blitsed with sort 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:52.000 of a subsurface that is actually extremely useful and it's 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.600 very I mean, we have gas storage already. We're using 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:58.720 the exact same technology, the same storage formation. So we 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:01.000 have been given that we've been storing gas for forty 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:03.960 years without any problem whatsoever. We thought it would be 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:07.320 sort of a natural thing to move to that, and 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:08.960 it turned out that there was quite a lot of 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:11.640 interest on that. And we do really hope that getting 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:13.920 back to my point about being market based, that this 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:17.240 could dramatically reduce costs. And then, I mean, we have 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:20.040 a lot of carrots in the danger policy might put 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:21.000 we all to have some sticks. 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:24.040 I mean, we do have a very strict see two 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:25.040 tax that. 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:27.480 Would sort of kick in, and you have the ETS 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:30.200 price going up, so you have the two sticks, and 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:32.680 then if you have the on store short storage, and 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:36.080 if you have some development of technology, we should be 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.080 able to phase out the need for these subsidies over time. 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:42.240 Yeah, that's great, because the ETS, from my understanding, will 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:44.920 probably not be high enough for the next five or 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:48.120 ten years for serious projects Bible, so you need to 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.600 have your own additional program like what happened in Germany. 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:53.320 Christian I saw you raise your hands before we go 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:54.000 over to Stefinie. 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:56.680 Just a very small comment because I think in Norway, 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.640 one of the reasons why we're developing CCS as a 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:02.880 technology is that we have the competence. We have stored 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:05.520 CO two on the Norwegian Continental Shelf since nineteen ninety 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:07.920 six where they started. That's like I feel, due to 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:10.720 CEO two tax in posts on the Norwegian or on 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:14.320 the petroleum sector, so we we know that this works, 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:16.880 we know that it's safe, we monitor it very closely. 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:21.240 So that's also a reason why this is something where 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:24.280 we had the competence and the knowledge to develop this. 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:29.680 And then on shore in Norway the sand that's hard rocks, 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:32.480 so it's not possible to store to onshore in Norway, 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:35.880 so the continental Shelf is the only city storage stuff. 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:38.880 It's closer to Scotland. Then it's Norway right where you're 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:40.120 staring the COEO two. 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.000 It's not closer to Scotland because then it would have 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:46.280 been on the UK continental but it's in the middle there. 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:49.680 But maybe just to add I mean, we'd also store 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:50.320 in the norseea. 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:52.200 I mean the first project that they have if ID 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:54.960 in Denmark is in the North Sea really also want 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:57.880 to uses incoment, just like Norway in the old oil 0:16:57.880 --> 0:16:58.720 and gas fields. 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:05.560 Let's talk about the EU as well, Stephanie. You told 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:08.880 me on a call last week when we were debating 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:12.680 and discussing about this panel, that the EU has realized 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:16.600 that industrial decorganization projects are not bankable and that's why 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:20.840 we have the Green Industrial Deal right now in the EU. 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:24.040 And the question is how is the EU going to 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:27.679 support the Green Industrial Deal. Is it going to be 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:31.760 more like Norway with kapex funding for projects before they 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:34.080 start storing. Is it going to be more like Denmark 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:36.439 where you must store in order to get paid. 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:38.200 Is it going to be a combination of the two. 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:40.840 My understanding is there is a hint, but it's not 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:42.480 yet clear how this is going to happen. 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:47.159 Thank you. So I like how the discussion is already 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:49.480 involving because I think we all want the same thing 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:52.479 you said, project on a bankable but in the end, 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:56.800 what we want is that those projects get to the 0:17:56.840 --> 0:18:00.760 market and that they are happening by them. So there 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:03.680 is this gap. We see it in the Innovation Fund. 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:07.280 We have the Innovation Fund that we operate at the 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.800 EU level is a fund that has for the period 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.760 twenty twenty to twenty thirteen estimated budget of forty billion 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:20.840 euros estimated because it is contingent on the EU carbon price. 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:26.159 But we already in the four years of operation of 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:29.639 the fund, we already have around two hundred projects in 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:34.120 our portfolio and committed around twelve billion euros to those projects. 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:37.240 And a large number of projects are actually familiar to 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:43.600 people here on stage because they are related to industrial 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:48.680 comb management. So now well we will when it comes 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:53.080 to funding, built on that success of the Innovation Fund. 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:57.920 We have indeed now we had a European Green Deal 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:03.600 which has now also been going forward into the Clean 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:08.800 Industrial Deal, as we see that many of the well 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:12.480 that the industries are not necessarily struggling with the technology, 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:16.040 but they are struggling with building the business case, and 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.399 that's where the Clean Industrial Deal comes in. There was 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:22.760 a discussion on that this morning already. So there are 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:28.040 some drivers. In the speech before our panel we heard 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:31.840 in particular also that affordable energy is one of the drivers, 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:34.679 and financing as well. So for the financing part, we 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:37.240 will build on the Innovation Fund and its success. 0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:38.679 We have. 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:42.800 The pledge that we will next year, in the context 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:45.240 of the revision of the EU ETS come forward with 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:49.320 a proposal for an industrial Decarbitalization bank that is supposed 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:56.680 to provide one hundred billion euros in funding for clean projects, 0:19:56.720 --> 0:20:01.879 not only clean technology but industrial decarbonization projects. The details 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:04.680 are not yet there. We will this year have already 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:08.240 a pilot for this industrial decarbonization banks. My team is 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:12.480 working on a fixed premium option for industrial process heat 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:17.199 decarbonization that we will launch in the last quarter of 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:22.200 this year as well. And while in terms of support 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:26.159 or support mechanisms, we work a lot with grants, but 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:28.880 we also know that and the Clean Industrial Deal also 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:32.520 says that very clearly that we need to maybe make 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.680 that a bit more targeted and looking at what does 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:39.320 the project actually really need to de risk And Kirsten 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:41.439 said it, I mean this is really we need to 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:46.240 de risk those projects as long as needed until the 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:52.320 market takes over. We have a lot of experience now 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:55.400 with the hydrogen auction that we have been running under 0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:58.960 the Innovation Fund. Actually today I'm not sure the news 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:01.880 is already out. We are going to announce the winners 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:05.960 of the second auction on renewable hydrogen today. 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:09.440 Just when my European hygien analyst is on holiday in Thailand. 0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:15.919 So there's a lot of experience with different ways of 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:21.600 providing public support, and in particular this well, it depends 0:21:21.920 --> 0:21:24.240 very much on what it is that you want to support. 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:27.760 For an auction like the hydrogen auction, you need a 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:31.920 very homogeneous product like hydrogen. We will do the same 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:40.280 now for as I said, industrial heat solutions, but you 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:43.160 cannot have a one size fits all. On the other hand, 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:45.200 I mean the project that we just have been talking 0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:48.320 about and I just mentioned it's full value chain support. 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:50.840 So you need to bring all these actors with their 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:54.520 different needs around the table. And Dick mentioned one important 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:58.440 aspect also regulation, So it's not only about funding, it's 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:02.800 also about setting standards. It's about coming forward. We will 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:08.560 we are working on ZE to Transport Infrastructure infrastructure package 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:12.920 as well, so to enable that support to the entire 0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:17.040 value chain, not only with money, but also through other 0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:18.240 ways and means we have. 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:21.440 And when do you expect the market will take over 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:25.400