1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,640 Speaker 1: This is Tom Rowlands Reese and you're listening to Switched 2 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: on the podcast brought to you by b and EF, 3 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: and today we bring you a recording from our b 4 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:09,639 Speaker 1: and EF Summit Munich, which took place on the twentieth 5 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,399 Speaker 1: of May. The panel featured on today's show is titled 6 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: getting Industrial Decarbonization mega Projects on their Feet evaluating early 7 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: success with large scale carbon capture hubs in the UK, 8 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 1: carbon storage facilities in Denmark, the Netherlands and Italy, and 9 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: cross border carbon transit facilities being built in Norway. Europe 10 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: has been making quick work of successfully executing large industrial 11 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: decarbonization infrastructure facilities. But just how have policymakers managed to 12 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: facilitate installation of these massive projects and what can other 13 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: companies and governments glean from their successes. On today's show, 14 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: the panelists share their learnings and discuss what forms of 15 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 1: policy have proved successful and what more is required to 16 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: facilitate further growth in the sector. The panels include Kristin Nishka, 17 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: Director General and Head of Climate Industry and Technology for 18 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: the Norwegian Ministry of Energy, Andres Hoffmann, Deputy Permanent Secretary 19 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: for the Danish Ministry for Climate Energy and util is 20 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: Deek ben Shop, chair of the Border Mission Possible Partnership, 21 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: and Stephanie Heisinger, head of Unit Low Carbon Solutions for 22 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: DT Climber at the European Commission. The panel was moderated 23 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: by Martin Tangler, BNF's head of Hydrogen Research. For more 24 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: information regarding BNF summits, including our upcoming BNF Summit New 25 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: Delhi on August twenty second, and t V recordings from 26 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: our previous events, head to about BNF dot com slash summit. Now, 27 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: let's say it from our panel. 28 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 2: At least three things are needed in other Industrial League 29 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 2: organization projects to go ahead, and that's government support, infrastructure 30 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 2: and demand. And the thing that we will discuss, the 31 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: question we will discuss today with our four brilliant panelists 32 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 2: is if you are a government, how can you best 33 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 2: foster these conditions in your country? And let's start by 34 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 2: looking at the current situation with a question to Dick. So, Dick, 35 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 2: you are at the Mission Possible Partnership MPP, and on 36 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 2: your website there's a beautiful map of more than five 37 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 2: hundred industrial decarbanization projects and the one common problem that 38 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 2: they all have is that very few of them have 39 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 2: actually reached a final investment decision or FID. I think 40 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 2: it was eight between April and November, if i'm if 41 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 2: I'm not mistaken. So beyond the three things that government 42 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 2: incentives infrastructure demand, is there anything else that these projects 43 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 2: need in order to go ahead? 44 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 3: Yes, so, thank you very much and good morning. 45 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 4: Yeah. 46 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 3: The Global Project Trecker is one of the things we 47 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 3: do in order, yes, to keep track of the progress, 48 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 3: we map it against where do we need to be 49 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 3: in twenty thirty and worldwide in the seven harder to 50 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 3: abate sectors from steel, ce mental, aluminium, aviation fuel, we 51 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 3: need about seven hundred plants in operation by twenty thirty. 52 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 3: Perhaps we have around twenty percent now at FID under 53 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 3: construction or in operation. And if you quoted the progress 54 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 3: between April and November last year, it's not going fast enough. 55 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 3: We'll have an update in a couple of weeks time 56 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 3: next half year update to see where we are. So 57 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 3: it's not that we have not started at the beginning 58 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 3: is there, But the pace and the question of the 59 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 3: scaling is absolutely important, and it's not going fast enough. 60 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 3: I think fortunately that the and you see that in 61 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 3: the European Commission and in national governments as well, that 62 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 3: the attention for industrial decarbanization is growing. It's thirty percent 63 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 3: of emissions. So it's not just the energy sector, it's 64 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 3: the industrial sector as well. It's and it's in the 65 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 3: heart of what we are currently living heavy we have 66 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,119 Speaker 3: to have. We have the clean deal, the green deal, 67 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 3: the clean deal. We have finally in Europe attention for 68 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 3: competitiveness because green stuff only get built if it's competitive. 69 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 4: Is the Drugy Report. 70 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 3: We see progress there and I guess with security, the 71 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 3: whole question of what are we producing in Europe is 72 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 3: becoming more and more important. And inside this trilemma between clean, secure, 73 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 3: and competitive you find the question what's going to happen 74 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 3: to the European industry in general terms? What we have 75 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 3: learned and I think the Potsdam Institute did great work 76 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 3: on that. On the policy mix, you need three elements. 77 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 3: You need an element of pricing see carbon pricing, see 78 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 3: the ets, which Europe has other geographies only to a 79 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 3: certain extent. You need an element of support, which Europe 80 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 3: has to a certain extent, which others had more at 81 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 3: least us with now the uncertainty around it. And you 82 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 3: need regulations, and for example, one of the things that 83 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 3: really worked in Europe was the aviation mandate, the blending mandate, 84 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 3: because if you look at the tracker, the number of 85 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 3: sustainable aviation fuel plants is really growing. The investment is 86 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 3: happening because of that certainty that is there because of 87 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 3: the mandate. So get this policy mix right. And in 88 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 3: the regulatory part, I would say we have to focus 89 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 3: on the demand side because subsidies give it the deficits 90 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 3: defense spending, they won't go over the moon in Europe. 91 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 3: You can't do it FIA pricing alone. I think demand 92 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 3: side interventions, but will probably come to that is the 93 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 3: key to be looking at now. 94 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 2: Okay, so as the government carrots, government sticks, and demand 95 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 2: side is what you find to be the most important. 96 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 2: Let's talk about the financing the government carrots for them 97 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 2: for a moment, and let's start with you, Kristin. So, 98 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 2: Norway has almost fully financed one massive carbon capture and 99 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 2: storage project, which is called long Ship in Norway, and 100 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 2: you've pretty much paid for almost the entire project. Now 101 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 2: that that project is almost about to come online, is 102 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 2: the private sector going to be able to take over? 103 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 2: Is that enough to get the sector going. 104 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 5: Well, thank you for that question. 105 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 6: I think it takes more than one project for this 106 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 6: market to come online. But I think it's important to 107 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 6: keep in mind that this is not sort of a 108 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 6: static picture. In a way, it's dynamic. We started working 109 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 6: on the long Ship, which consists of you to capture 110 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 6: from a cement facility, be hydlriy materials, ways to energy facility. 111 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 5: And alslow on by Hochlin. 112 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 6: And then it's the Northern Light Storage Solutions on the 113 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 6: west coast of Norway. 114 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 5: We started working on that. 115 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 6: In twenty fourteen twenty fifteen, where we saw that from 116 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 6: a sort of government perspective in Norway, the Climate Mitigator, 117 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 6: if we are to reach the climate targets in the 118 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 6: Paris Agreement, it's not possible without CCS. So we started 119 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 6: working on that as a public private partnership to develop. 120 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 5: The CCS technology. 121 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 6: And one of the aims for the Longship project is 122 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 6: that Norway and Europe are to reach sort of the 123 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 6: climate targets as at the lowest possible cost. So this 124 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 6: is our contribution to the entire sort of CCS development 125 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 6: as a technology. 126 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 5: And then what's next and then is this enough? 127 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 6: Well, what we've done and what's important to us with 128 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 6: the longship project is to share the knowledge. We have 129 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 6: de risked a lot of the CCS chain. Northern Lines 130 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 6: recently made a commercial Phase two decisions, so they have 131 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 6: spare capacity. They were open for business for European industry. 132 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 6: It's well, there are discussions on going for C two 133 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 6: storage on the Norwegian continental shelf. And then we are 134 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 6: also from a Norwegian perspective, now assess saying so what's 135 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 6: next for you to capture for the rest of the 136 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 6: Norwegian industry, which is a debate in our way. 137 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 5: So I think this is it's not a static picture. 138 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 6: The different countries have sort of different approaches. 139 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 5: It's important to. 140 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 6: See this as a it's a joint solution. We have 141 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 6: a common target here and then there's an element of competition, 142 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 6: but that is just it's good to have that competition. 143 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 2: So you said, there's some learnings that you've derived from 144 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 2: this for not just Norway but for the global community. 145 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 2: What are the what is the one thing that you 146 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 2: think you did really really. 147 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 5: Well in I think what made this happen is that we. 148 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 6: Had a trust between the government, the authorities and the 149 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 6: private companies and a common goal that this was a 150 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 6: project that we really wanted to see happening together. And 151 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 6: then there are risks in the chain between the capture 152 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 6: and storage that we need to sort of be aware 153 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 6: of and deal with. But I think actually from a 154 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 6: sort of from our perspective, the trust that this is 155 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 6: something that we all want to see happening was actually 156 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 6: the most important success factor in that project. 157 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 2: Okay, so you were you were one of the biggest 158 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 2: first projects out there, and you show that this is possible. 159 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 2: And the follow up question that is was the one 160 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 2: thing you would not repeat? 161 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:42,199 Speaker 5: Mm hm hm. That's a difficult one. I don't know, actually. 162 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 7: I think. 163 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 6: For in the Launschip project, the States serve as a 164 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 6: cushion between the capture side and the transportant storage side. 165 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 6: That we won't be able to do that for the 166 00:09:57,800 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 6: coming projects. 167 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:00,080 Speaker 5: So I think maybe. 168 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 6: That that is something that we did to actually make 169 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 6: this project go or happen. But it's not a role 170 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 6: that the state can take sort of indefinitely for the 171 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:12,599 Speaker 6: coming projects. 172 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 7: Right, so the market will eventually need. 173 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 5: To the market will have to take over. 174 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 6: And what we've done with this project is sort of 175 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,439 Speaker 6: to get a good overview over the different risks because 176 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 6: these are mega projects. 177 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 5: It's I don't know in. 178 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 6: Euros, two point five billion euros or something for the 179 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 6: entire chain. Norwegian State is contributing some roughly two billion 180 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 6: euros into this, so two thirds of course, so maybe 181 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 6: three of them. So I think the sort of the 182 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 6: risk picture is something that we've contributed with. 183 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 2: Great I wonder if Andrews will have any comments on that, 184 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 2: because Andrews Denmark is taking a very different approach from Norway. 185 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 7: Is that right? 186 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 2: Norway has financed this one big project long ship, whereas 187 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 2: what just happened in Denmark is you've shortlisted ten companies 188 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 2: on Friday for a three point eight billion euros or 189 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 2: so of funding and they can all get this funding, 190 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 2: but the condition is they actually have to start storing. 191 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 7: They have to store that. 192 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 2: Carbon before they get any money, whereas in Norway that 193 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 2: money came up front. So what do you think is 194 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 2: the advantage of that kind of an approach. 195 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,319 Speaker 8: I think we had great lounges in Denmark then when 196 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 8: we started designing policy back in twenty twenty. I mean, 197 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,599 Speaker 8: Norway has been doing this for fifteen years, so we 198 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 8: could sort of piggyback on some of their learnings and 199 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 8: also from the UK, and I think when we started 200 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 8: designing policy, I think we had sort of three main 201 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 8: things we wanted to solve. I mean, first of all, 202 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 8: we really believe that this should be market based in 203 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 8: the end, so everything we did on the way towards 204 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 8: that should enable that. 205 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 4: Market to be created. So I think that was sort 206 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 4: of the oral A vision. 207 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 9: And then secondly, what we heard was what was really 208 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 9: challenging in this sector was this whole chicken and egg 209 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 9: You wouldn't if you had the storage, that wouldn't be 210 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 9: developed because you know, nobody capturing and nobody would make pipelines. 211 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 9: Because so all of this, I mean, how do you 212 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:12,599 Speaker 9: have a really complicated value value chain created at the 213 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 9: same time. So we wanted to fix that. And then finally, 214 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 9: we had all of these rooms about billions of euros 215 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 9: being thrown at policy sort of projects that never developed. 216 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 9: So we're quite worried that we would waste CUD out 217 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 9: of government money. So based on that, we sort of 218 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 9: had the decision that, Okay, if you don't want to 219 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 9: waste money, at least we should only pay if they store, 220 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 9: So if they store it, we pay. By definition, you 221 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 9: can't lose money. The second one was we really want 222 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 9: to have that you shouldn't only be storing, you should 223 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 9: also sort of manage the entire value chain. So the 224 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 9: winner of our sobsity would be responsible for the entire 225 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 9: value chain and would have to pay for all of 226 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 9: these have to create the contracts and all of that. 227 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 9: So by that we hope in some way to sort 228 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 9: of solve the chicken and egg problem at least by 229 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 9: if somebody have all the money they need to have 230 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,439 Speaker 9: all the other parts of the chain aligned with their deadlines, 231 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 9: and thereby, hopefully by twenty thirty all of these things 232 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 9: would be aligned. I think that was sort of the 233 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 9: name thinking about the design. 234 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 2: And the three point eight billion euros that you'll be 235 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 2: giving to those companies. Is that enough to get the 236 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 2: sector going in Denmark? 237 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 9: I think it's enough to get quite a lot of 238 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 9: tons of sew to start. I think if you look 239 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 9: at it, we had a first subsidy scheme which was 240 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 9: won by us. Did they would be starting up capture 241 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 9: within a few months. Actually they would be storing in Norway. 242 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 9: Thank you so much for that for the first part. 243 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 9: And then I think based on that auction that was 244 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 9: zero point five million tons. 245 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 4: The next one is much much bigger. 246 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 9: So we're pretty sure that this auction would develop enough 247 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 9: U two capacity to meet our seventy percent climate target 248 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 9: in twenty thirty. 249 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 4: And that's really the main reason. 250 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 9: And although if you compare to Norway, I mean Norway 251 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 9: has a bit more policy and creating a new market, 252 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 9: I think Denmark's policy was really solving a problem with 253 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:07,479 Speaker 9: too much carbon dioxide. 254 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 4: So it's all a slightly different approach. 255 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 9: Ours is clearly a climate policy. It's just a very 256 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 9: sort of a cheap way, but a cheaper way than 257 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 9: some of the other policy we could have chosen. 258 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 2: Okay, so it will get us certainly a good part 259 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 2: of the way. And the interesting thing about Denmark is 260 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 2: you are looking at onshore storage, whereas the Norwegian project 261 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 2: is offshore. So if you're taking it from Denmark to Norway, 262 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 2: you need to put it on a ship liquefy it 263 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 2: then taking on a pipeline. 264 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 7: That pipeline is pretty long. 265 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 2: And bears it under the sea, which is quite a 266 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 2: lot more expensive than what you're looking at. 267 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 4: Right. Yeah, I think that was the main reason for 268 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 4: going on shore. 269 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 9: So and then of course Denmark is blitsed with sort 270 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 9: of a subsurface that is actually extremely useful and it's 271 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 9: very I mean, we have gas storage already. We're using 272 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 9: the exact same technology, the same storage formation. So we 273 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 9: have been given that we've been storing gas for forty 274 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 9: years without any problem whatsoever. We thought it would be 275 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 9: sort of a natural thing to move to that, and 276 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 9: it turned out that there was quite a lot of 277 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 9: interest on that. And we do really hope that getting 278 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 9: back to my point about being market based, that this 279 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 9: could dramatically reduce costs. And then, I mean, we have 280 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 9: a lot of carrots in the danger policy might put 281 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 9: we all to have some sticks. 282 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 4: I mean, we do have a very strict see two 283 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 4: tax that. 284 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 9: Would sort of kick in, and you have the ETS 285 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 9: price going up, so you have the two sticks, and 286 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 9: then if you have the on store short storage, and 287 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 9: if you have some development of technology, we should be 288 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 9: able to phase out the need for these subsidies over time. 289 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great, because the ETS, from my understanding, will 290 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 2: probably not be high enough for the next five or 291 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 2: ten years for serious projects Bible, so you need to 292 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 2: have your own additional program like what happened in Germany. 293 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 2: Christian I saw you raise your hands before we go 294 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 2: over to Stefinie. 295 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 6: Just a very small comment because I think in Norway, 296 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 6: one of the reasons why we're developing CCS as a 297 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 6: technology is that we have the competence. We have stored 298 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 6: CO two on the Norwegian Continental Shelf since nineteen ninety 299 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 6: six where they started. That's like I feel, due to 300 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 6: CEO two tax in posts on the Norwegian or on 301 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 6: the petroleum sector, so we we know that this works, 302 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 6: we know that it's safe, we monitor it very closely. 303 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 6: So that's also a reason why this is something where 304 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 6: we had the competence and the knowledge to develop this. 305 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 6: And then on shore in Norway the sand that's hard rocks, 306 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 6: so it's not possible to store to onshore in Norway, 307 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 6: so the continental Shelf is the only city storage stuff. 308 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 2: It's closer to Scotland. Then it's Norway right where you're 309 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 2: staring the COEO two. 310 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 6: It's not closer to Scotland because then it would have 311 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 6: been on the UK continental but it's in the middle there. 312 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 4: But maybe just to add I mean, we'd also store 313 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 4: in the norseea. 314 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 9: I mean the first project that they have if ID 315 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 9: in Denmark is in the North Sea really also want 316 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 9: to uses incoment, just like Norway in the old oil 317 00:16:57,880 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 9: and gas fields. 318 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 2: Let's talk about the EU as well, Stephanie. You told 319 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 2: me on a call last week when we were debating 320 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 2: and discussing about this panel, that the EU has realized 321 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 2: that industrial decorganization projects are not bankable and that's why 322 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 2: we have the Green Industrial Deal right now in the EU. 323 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 2: And the question is how is the EU going to 324 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 2: support the Green Industrial Deal. Is it going to be 325 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 2: more like Norway with kapex funding for projects before they 326 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 2: start storing. Is it going to be more like Denmark 327 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 2: where you must store in order to get paid. 328 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 7: Is it going to be a combination of the two. 329 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 2: My understanding is there is a hint, but it's not 330 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 2: yet clear how this is going to happen. 331 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 10: Thank you. So I like how the discussion is already 332 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 10: involving because I think we all want the same thing 333 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,479 Speaker 10: you said, project on a bankable but in the end, 334 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 10: what we want is that those projects get to the 335 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 10: market and that they are happening by them. So there 336 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 10: is this gap. We see it in the Innovation Fund. 337 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 10: We have the Innovation Fund that we operate at the 338 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 10: EU level is a fund that has for the period 339 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 10: twenty twenty to twenty thirteen estimated budget of forty billion 340 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 10: euros estimated because it is contingent on the EU carbon price. 341 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 10: But we already in the four years of operation of 342 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 10: the fund, we already have around two hundred projects in 343 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 10: our portfolio and committed around twelve billion euros to those projects. 344 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 10: And a large number of projects are actually familiar to 345 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 10: people here on stage because they are related to industrial 346 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 10: comb management. So now well we will when it comes 347 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 10: to funding, built on that success of the Innovation Fund. 348 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 10: We have indeed now we had a European Green Deal 349 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 10: which has now also been going forward into the Clean 350 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 10: Industrial Deal, as we see that many of the well 351 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 10: that the industries are not necessarily struggling with the technology, 352 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 10: but they are struggling with building the business case, and 353 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 10: that's where the Clean Industrial Deal comes in. There was 354 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 10: a discussion on that this morning already. So there are 355 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 10: some drivers. In the speech before our panel we heard 356 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 10: in particular also that affordable energy is one of the drivers, 357 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 10: and financing as well. So for the financing part, we 358 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 10: will build on the Innovation Fund and its success. 359 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 9: We have. 360 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 10: The pledge that we will next year, in the context 361 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 10: of the revision of the EU ETS come forward with 362 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 10: a proposal for an industrial Decarbitalization bank that is supposed 363 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 10: to provide one hundred billion euros in funding for clean projects, 364 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 10: not only clean technology but industrial decarbonization projects. The details 365 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 10: are not yet there. We will this year have already 366 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 10: a pilot for this industrial decarbonization banks. My team is 367 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 10: working on a fixed premium option for industrial process heat 368 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 10: decarbonization that we will launch in the last quarter of 369 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 10: this year as well. And while in terms of support 370 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 10: or support mechanisms, we work a lot with grants, but 371 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 10: we also know that and the Clean Industrial Deal also 372 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 10: says that very clearly that we need to maybe make 373 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 10: that a bit more targeted and looking at what does 374 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 10: the project actually really need to de risk And Kirsten 375 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 10: said it, I mean this is really we need to 376 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 10: de risk those projects as long as needed until the 377 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 10: market takes over. We have a lot of experience now 378 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 10: with the hydrogen auction that we have been running under 379 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 10: the Innovation Fund. Actually today I'm not sure the news 380 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 10: is already out. We are going to announce the winners 381 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 10: of the second auction on renewable hydrogen today. 382 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 2: Just when my European hygien analyst is on holiday in Thailand. 383 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 10: So there's a lot of experience with different ways of 384 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 10: providing public support, and in particular this well, it depends 385 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 10: very much on what it is that you want to support. 386 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 10: For an auction like the hydrogen auction, you need a 387 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 10: very homogeneous product like hydrogen. We will do the same 388 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 10: now for as I said, industrial heat solutions, but you 389 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 10: cannot have a one size fits all. On the other hand, 390 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 10: I mean the project that we just have been talking 391 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 10: about and I just mentioned it's full value chain support. 392 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 10: So you need to bring all these actors with their 393 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 10: different needs around the table. And Dick mentioned one important 394 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 10: aspect also regulation, So it's not only about funding, it's 395 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 10: also about setting standards. It's about coming forward. We will 396 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 10: we are working on ZE to Transport Infrastructure infrastructure package 397 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,920 Speaker 10: as well, so to enable that support to the entire 398 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 10: value chain, not only with money, but also through other 399 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 10: ways and means we have. 400 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 2: And when do you expect the market will take over 401 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 2: in the EU on these big industrially organization projects. 402 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 10: Yeah, that's of course the one hundred billion dollar question. No, 403 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 10: I cannot it's impossible to give you an exact timeline 404 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 10: when these projects will will be taken by the market. 405 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 10: It very much depends on the speed at which the 406 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 10: technology is mature. It very much depends on other factors 407 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 10: like the infrastructure in particular, when it comes to C two. 408 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 10: We are working on a ze to Investment ATLAS also 409 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 10: in the EU, so that we start mapping actually potential 410 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 10: storage site with the industrial clusters that will actually need 411 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 10: to store you too. And there are lots of other factors. 412 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 10: If you want me to express a wish, I would 413 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 10: say as soon as possible, because that would be the 414 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 10: ideal scenario. But it's really hard to give you an 415 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 10: exact timeline on this one. 416 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, hopefully as soon as possible. 417 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 7: Indeed. 418 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 2: And one question that I actually have before we move 419 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 2: on to talking about demand is about a different way 420 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 2: that the government can help. Our government agencies can help 421 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,399 Speaker 2: projects get off the ground and dig. That's a question 422 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 2: to you around dead guarantees or other ways that governments 423 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 2: can can help. For example, the Stegra project in Sweden, 424 00:23:54,760 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 2: there's really large green hydrogen steel making project in northern Sweden. 425 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 2: It's building seven hundred and forty megabats of electualizers. 426 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 7: One of the ways through which it. 427 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 2: Was able to come online, to the best of my 428 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 2: understanding is through debt and debt guarantees from the German 429 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 2: government and from the Swedish government. Could these debt guarantees 430 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 2: be used more broadly for other industrial sectors too. 431 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 3: Yes, I think so, because companies they are looking at 432 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 3: the policy side and assurrety around it and is the 433 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 3: right mix in place. Companies are looking at the demand 434 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 3: site and I'll say something about it, and companies are 435 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 3: looking indeed at the risk and the financing site, because 436 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 3: there's all kinds of hurdles there. For first of a kind, 437 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 3: project's insurance, risk, engineering risks, project risk accumulated in a 438 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 3: way that is almost prohibitive in some cases. So that's 439 00:24:54,280 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 3: where an element of government support on the risk side 440 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 3: or on the financing site on the being a backstop 441 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 3: can help enormously indeed on that part. But Stagger and 442 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 3: those type of projects are very interesting as well because 443 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,719 Speaker 3: you see that they tend to get the customers in 444 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 3: as well, even as a shareholder in order to be 445 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 3: a customer, you get that type of construct which all 446 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 3: I has to do with that question, can I be 447 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 3: certain about the demand and how do I organize that, 448 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 3: Because if you want to have bankable demand, that means 449 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 3: something in terms of commercial constructs, long term contracts, and 450 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 3: are you able to get that and not all markets 451 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 3: are structured in in that way, So that's really an issue. 452 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 3: Allen just showed the green premium, and it's huge at 453 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 3: the beginning of the value chain. For even more, what 454 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 3: it did not show is that it is not huge 455 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 3: at the end of the value chain when you come 456 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 3: to the consumer product. Even still in a is in 457 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 3: the order of magnitude of four hundred or five hundred 458 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 3: euros for the price of a car, green p amumonia 459 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 3: to green fertilizer to your bread, you'll hardly see behind 460 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 3: the scent in terms of the cost of the bread. 461 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 3: In percentages, ten percent of the new stuff in those 462 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 3: sectors in twenty thirty is less than one percent price 463 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 3: increase at the end consumer end. So that gives another 464 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 3: perspective on affordability. You have always to be very careful 465 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 3: and we have to go up the learning curve and 466 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 3: bring the cost down. But if you say even a 467 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 3: ten percent perspective in twenty thirty is rather higher compared 468 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 3: to where we are today, that is in terms of 469 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 3: passing it through, not absorbing it by the government, not 470 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 3: absorbing it by the companies, but getting it to the 471 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 3: end consumer is doable, and that gives a very great 472 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 3: interest in the question and how can we activate that demount? 473 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:00,679 Speaker 7: How do we do that? 474 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 3: Because if I go if I buy a new Folvo, 475 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 3: I can't say I want green steel in my car. 476 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 3: It's not on offer if I go to my supermarket, etc. 477 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 3: So something has to happen there. Mandates. We have a 478 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 3: sustainable aviation mandate, it clearly works. It triggers investment. Why 479 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 3: not the green fertilizer mandate? Why not other mandates, fuel standards, 480 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 3: carbon intensity standards. A lot of things to do there 481 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 3: which could give that certainty of demand in those sectors, 482 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 3: which would then help enormously in terms of creating the 483 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 3: conditions forever. The next to the government support and next 484 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,959 Speaker 3: to the financing and the risk side. One more element 485 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 3: that you could consider as well. Then you mentioned the 486 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 3: auctions that are taking place and h to global broader 487 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 3: use of market makers of intermediaries, because there are markets 488 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 3: where you have the need for the financing side to 489 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 3: have long term contracts, but on the demand. 490 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 7: Side, it's short term. 491 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 3: Like in aviation, airlines don't buy fuel for fifteen years. 492 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 3: It's a short term market. But if you want to 493 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 3: have e fuel project off the ground, you need a 494 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 3: contract for ten to fifteen years. Who is going to 495 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 3: do that. Nobody's going to do that. Stuck a bit 496 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 3: like a chicken and egg. But then on the commercial side, 497 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 3: so create intermediaries where you absorb the risk and the 498 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 3: intermediation between the long and the short term. You do 499 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,479 Speaker 3: some government support in there as well to de risk it, 500 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 3: and you can get a market certainly connected. Individual players 501 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 3: are not able to make that connection. So I think 502 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 3: there's a lot to do there on the demand side 503 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 3: to create a certainty of demand in my view, a 504 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 3: very affordable end consumer prices in a way that can 505 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 3: trigger a lot of investment. And now the European Commission 506 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 3: announced that as well as part of the cleaning to 507 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 3: deal with the Industrial Decentralization Accelerator Act. 508 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 7: I really hope and. 509 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 3: I think we should all contribute to that effort that 510 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 3: we can create those demond mechanisms because that I think 511 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 3: that's very interesting. 512 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, the intermediary point is really interesting. We had the 513 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 2: pleasure of having Susanna Morera from h to Global on 514 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 2: a panel in our summit in London in October last year, 515 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 2: and it was a really interesting discussion. How do you 516 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 2: marry the fact that you need a ten year off 517 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 2: take agreement for the producer, but the off taker does 518 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 2: not want ten years, They want to take max one 519 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 2: year maybe two, and they bridge that gap by buying 520 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 2: this and then selling it on which it's a fascinating model. 521 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 2: It would be great if it can work for other 522 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 2: parts of the industrial de carbonization as well. Stephanie, let's 523 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 2: move to you and the demand question is they was 524 00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 2: saying something really interesting. I think Andrews was saying the 525 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 2: same thing about quotas. So the EU has different mandates 526 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 2: or quotas for sustainable aviation fuel for green hydrogen or 527 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 2: renewable fuel of non biological origin RFMBO use with instead 528 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 2: of gray hydrogen. And the deadline for member states in 529 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 2: the EU to transpose this quota for forty two percent 530 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 2: of green hydrogen replacement for gray into their national law 531 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 2: is tomorrow, if I'm not mistaken, and also if I'm 532 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 2: not mistaken, only about five member states have actually transposed this, 533 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 2: and probably only about two of them actually fully. So 534 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 2: what's the EU gonna do about that? Is are there 535 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 2: going to be fines? Are these states going to be 536 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 2: punished for not meeting it? Or are we just going 537 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 2: to let them let them not comply with these regulations. 538 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 10: So, first of all, I think it's even if it's tomorrow, 539 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 10: it's too early to already kind of throw out the 540 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 10: baby with the buzz water. Let's let's wait what comes 541 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 10: our way tomorrow. Usually when there's the deadline, you know, 542 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 10: things are sent close to the deadline. But I also think, well, 543 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 10: those quotas have been decided by the co legislators. So 544 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 10: it's the Renewable Energy Directive and its anexes, So the 545 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 10: co legislature in the EU, that's the European Parliament and 546 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 10: the Member States. So the decision how to implement those 547 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 10: targets have been that has been left to the Member 548 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 10: States in that legislative process. But that's where I think, well, 549 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 10: if this is agreed between the Parliament and the Member States, 550 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 10: we should give them the benefit of, you know, now 551 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 10: telling us first how they are going to meet those 552 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 10: targets before we talk about what do we do if 553 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 10: they don't do what they prompt to do so, I 554 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 10: think it's the only fair from that perspective. But when 555 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 10: it comes to demand, if you allow me, in the 556 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 10: Clean Industrial Deal, we have indeed also strength emphasized quite 557 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 10: strongly the fact that first of all, we need to 558 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 10: define the clean products, so we're working, for example, on 559 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 10: the green steel label. But I think that's really important 560 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 10: that we all know what it is that we're actually 561 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 10: talking about. And then second, we will also use the 562 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 10: public procurement rules to create that demand. And that's actually 563 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 10: quite a strong driver because public procurement is huge on 564 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 10: certain markets, and that can also be since we spoke 565 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 10: about public financing a good way on how the public 566 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 10: can actually finance that demand. 567 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 3: For the especially interesting for cement, it's about half of 568 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 3: the cement is subject to public procure Governments alone can 569 00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 3: de risk green cement. 570 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 2: That's that's great, Let's do it. What are you waiting for, Stephanie. 571 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 2: You only answered my question halfway though, so I'm going 572 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 2: to probe a little bit deeper. So you said, let 573 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 2: the Member states figure it out. It's up to them 574 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 2: to meet the meet the EU quotas. Now, if the 575 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 2: majority of Member states at this moment have yet to 576 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 2: transpose them, I would say there is a relatively high 577 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 2: probability that the majority of member states will not meet 578 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 2: them by twenty thirty. What if that happens, is the 579 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 2: majority of the EU going to punish itself for not 580 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 2: meeting you quotas? 581 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 7: Yeah, I think you know that. 582 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 10: You will not get me into speculation here because I 583 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 10: really think let's wait first tomorrow and then there's five 584 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 10: years until we get to twenty thirty, so there is 585 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 10: also time to try progress and to then take measures 586 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 10: in between. On the side of the member states, I mean, 587 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 10: they they pledged or they agreed to those targets, so 588 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,360 Speaker 10: there's also this drive from the side of the member 589 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 10: states to make them happen. And I think also the 590 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 10: in the industrials. I mean, what targets provide you is predictability, 591 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 10: and and that is what industries strive for. So I 592 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 10: think we need to, you know, also work towards UH 593 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 10: giving that predictability through tracking the progress and then if 594 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 10: if needed, take additional measures. But it's not good I 595 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 10: find to put in question targets that you know, even 596 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 10: at that stage when they when the transposition deadline has 597 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 10: not yet lapsed, and so it's I think it's our strength, 598 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 10: and Dick mentioned it in the beginning. It's also about 599 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 10: the regulatory framework in the EU. Will love a climate 600 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 10: neutrality target for twenty to fifty. It's often forgotten, but 601 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 10: that is in a law, in legislation. It's a democratically 602 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 10: agreed climate neutrality target. We not only have that climate 603 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 10: neutrality target, we have a twenty thirty target that is 604 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 10: underpinned by a solid climate and energy policy framework, and 605 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 10: that I think is driving a lot of the action 606 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 10: that we're seeing today, including CCS because quite frankly, the 607 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 10: CCS directive dates from two thousand and eight, but for many, 608 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 10: many years we didn't see anything happening. So now we 609 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,240 Speaker 10: have a fifty million tom C two injection capacity target 610 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 10: in the natzio industry, and yet that stimulates the debate 611 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 10: that in not only in industry but also in the 612 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,800 Speaker 10: Member States countries like Austria, like Germany start a public 613 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 10: debate about CCS, and that's what we actually need. So 614 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 10: I think targets are important, and it is important to 615 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 10: of course truct the progress towards meeting them, but not 616 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 10: speculate on them. 617 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 2: Okay, so we'll need to wait five years so five 618 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 2: years from now, I'll invite you to the summit. 619 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:11,800 Speaker 7: Thank you so much everyone. 620 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 2: I think we've established that the carbonizing industry is really hard, 621 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 2: but it seems like with our four panelists, we're a 622 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,439 Speaker 2: lot clearer on what works and what might not work 623 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 2: as well. And thank you so much to our great panelist. 624 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 7: Thank you. 625 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 1: Today's episode of Switched On was produced by Cam Gray 626 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: with production assistants from Kamala Shelling. Bloomberg ne EF is 627 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 1: a service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. 628 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: This recording does not constitute, nor should it be construed, 629 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,839 Speaker 1: as investment and vice investment recommendations, or a recommendation as 630 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,840 Speaker 1: to an investment or other strategy. Bloomberg anniah not be 631 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: considered as information sufficient upon which to base an in decision. 632 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 1: Neither Bloomberg Finance Lp Nor any of its affiliates makes 633 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: any representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness 634 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:09,919 Speaker 1: of the information contained in this recording, and any 635 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 4: Liability as a result of this recording is expressly disclaimed.