1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff to blow your mind. From housetop work 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: got Carlo. One day, the men and dogs were sitting 3 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: on the crest of a cliff which fell away straight 4 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: down to naked bed rock three feet below. John Thornton 5 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: was sitting near the edge, Buck at his shoulder. A 6 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: thoughtless swim seized Thornton, and he drew the attention of 7 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: Hands and Pete to the experiment he had in mind. 8 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 1: Jump Buck, He commanded, sweeping his arm out over the chasm. 9 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: The next instant he was grappling with Buck on the 10 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: extreme edge, while Hands and Pete were dragging them back 11 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: into safety. It's uncanny, Pete said, after it was over 12 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: and they had caught their speech. Thornton shook his head. No, 13 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: it is splendid, and it is terrible too. Do you 14 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: know it sometimes makes me afraid? Hey, welcome to stuff 15 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: to blow your mind. My name is Robert Lamp and 16 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: my name is Christian Sager. Hate rob Have you ever 17 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: been standing at the edge of like a cliff or 18 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: a building, or maybe you're waiting for a train, like 19 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: a subway train. You just think I should jump, Well, 20 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: it never quite manifests itself as I should jump I 21 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: find that for me, it manifests itself as what if 22 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: I did jump? Like and I it's this intense contemplation 23 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 1: of the choice I have in the matter, and the 24 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: fact that I could if I wanted to fling myself 25 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: off of this cliff, you know, fall into the Grand Canyon, 26 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: go in front of a train, or a variant of 27 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: this thing I that I encountered atop of the Empire 28 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: State Building. Have you ever been up to the top 29 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: of the Empire State Building? You know that they have 30 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: these It's it's like being in a cage match. There's 31 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: no you would have There's basically no way you could 32 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: throw yourself off the Empire State Building, at least not 33 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: on a whim. It would take it would take some 34 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: some some planning, and some effort. But what I did 35 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: find myself struggling with was what if I threw my 36 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: wallet over the side to the street below. That would 37 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: be horrible, And so I ended ended up wrestling with 38 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: that possibility, which is kind of like throwing a piece 39 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: of your life over the side. Yeah, isn't there that adage? 40 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:15,799 Speaker 1: And I think how stuff works is even done an 41 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: article on this about like what happens when you throw 42 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: a penny over the side of the Empire State Building, 43 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: and I think there's the urban legend is that it 44 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: can kill a person. Yeah, I don't know what the 45 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: science is that I seem to recall. It doesn't quite 46 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: pan out. It's it's been a while since I've looked 47 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: at that one, but I still I'm not gonna go 48 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: throwing pennies over I feel like my wallet would maybe 49 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: just balk somebody in the head probably with my wallet 50 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: would probably not go through somebody. Yeah. Well. The other 51 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: one of these is uh captured in Woody Ellen's Any 52 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: Hall movie when Christopher Walkin is talking about how he 53 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 1: wants to swerve into traffic and at night and he's 54 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: looking at the other headlights coming the other way. They're 55 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: all related. Uh, And this is you out there are 56 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: probably going like this is real morbid guys, where are 57 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: you going with this? Uh? This is an actual phenomenon, 58 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 1: so so common that it has multiple names, and there 59 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: has been a major study done on it. Um, so 60 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: we're going to cover that today. It is the sudden 61 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: feeling that we want to put ourselves in a harm's way. 62 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: Examples of this often include the urge to jump off 63 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: a top building or to veer into oncoming traffic. The 64 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: French term for it is pel dou vede, which means 65 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: call of the Void, which I really like. And that's 66 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: how I how I came to this was there's this 67 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: pretty brutal hardcore band that I like called Call of 68 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: the Void, and I was typing it into Google the 69 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: other day and an article on this phenomenon popped up, 70 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: and I was like, I've never heard of this before. 71 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: And then I said to you, let's let's talk about this. Yeah, 72 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I knew about it. I've had the experience, 73 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: but I feel like most people have had the experience. 74 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: I would I would definitely like the here from anyone 75 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: who has not had some variant of this. Now, you 76 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: mentioned that it's called often referred to as Call of 77 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: the Void, and some of our listeners might have recommended. 78 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: The reading at the top of the episode is being 79 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: from Jack London's nineteen three novel The Call of the Wild. 80 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: I like how this particular bit from that novel, certainly 81 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: that this is the main part of the novel that 82 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: always sticks out in my mind because it gets into 83 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: similar territory as the Call of the Void. The idea 84 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: that with a split decision, you could bring being into 85 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 1: un being. In this case, it's the dog and really 86 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: the but the dog also um represents much about the 87 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: central character in the Call in the Wild as well. 88 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: What's strange about it is it's like the ultimate form 89 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: of control when you feel like you don't have control, 90 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: right It's like this ultimate expression where you're like, oh, 91 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 1: like you think I don't have control over anything. The 92 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: one thing I can totally control is I could just 93 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: kill myself right now if I wanted to, which is 94 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: horrible to think about, but we're gonna get into it. 95 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: There's like a lot of theories as to where this 96 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: thing comes from. I don't know about you, but like 97 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: when I've experienced it, I feel it in the pit 98 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: of my stomach, like it's like a full body sensation. 99 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: It's not just like a little like thought like I 100 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: wonder if I if I jumped, you know, there's this weird, yeah, 101 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: this visceral kind of vibe from it. It's it's not 102 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 1: so much like you're having to hold yourself down, but 103 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: sometimes you do kind of I have been in places 104 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: where I feel like I kind of want to squat 105 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 1: down and maybe touch the ground a little bit, even 106 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: though I'm not near the edge now. One thing I 107 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: will say is that I have not felt this recently 108 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: because I find that when I am in places with 109 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: ledges or anything of that nature, I tend to be 110 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: there with my wife and son, and so I'm more 111 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: concerned about them falling out off, especially my son being 112 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 1: like just four going on five. He falls off the 113 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: stuff all the time, oh like he and he ends 114 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,919 Speaker 1: up generating all of my anxiety about people falling or jumping, 115 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: And then I don't I guess I have less room 116 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: for myself. Sure, well, that makes sense based on the 117 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: cognitive dissonance theory that we're going to talk about today, 118 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: that that your parental authority would like override, override the 119 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 1: biological like brain stuff that's going on theoretically here that 120 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 1: causes it. There's a whole theory as to what causes 121 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: this seems close, But let's go through all this stuff 122 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: and kind of figure it out. Before we do that, 123 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: I wanted to add a John paulse Sartra observed this 124 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: decades ago, and he said that this emotion is unsettling 125 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: because it creates an unnerving, shaky sensation of not being 126 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: able to trust one's own instincts, which is which is 127 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: really interesting. Like I hadn't even thought about it as 128 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: that that like you feel like, so I just expressed 129 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: it as a thing where it's like you feel like 130 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: you're in total control. But then his aversion of it 131 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: is you're totally out of control. Well, it's kind of 132 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 1: the you know it's It's another reason I like the 133 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: call the wild quote here because he talks about this 134 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: thing being splendid and terrible at the same time, and 135 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: to to stand it's it's like standing at the edge 136 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: of the Grand Canyon, Like the Grand Canyon is an 137 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: awesome experience to see that much emptiness, but it's also 138 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: you feel vulnerable and if you're gonna go and you 139 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: want to go in style, that seems like that would 140 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: be kind of like a beautiful way to do it. Well, 141 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: a lot of people have Yeah, I mean, I'm not suicidal. 142 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: Don't think that audience, And we're going to talk about 143 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: suicidal thoughts and relation to this as well, because it's 144 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: a pretty serious topic. But I could there there's something, 145 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: there is a beauty to it, and um, this is 146 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: where Mr Sigmund Freud comes in and we'll we'll we'll 147 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: talk about that as well, But first let's look at 148 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: the more recent study. This is really the hinge of 149 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: this episode. So inven a team of scientists from Florida 150 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: State University decided to investigate it. And this was in 151 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: the Journal of Effective Disorders. And the authors of the 152 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: paper were led by a woman named Jennifer Hayes. She's 153 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: was a graduate student and she's currently faculty at Notre Dame. 154 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: UH and this was at f s us Joiner Lab. 155 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: And you might be going, why would anybody want to 156 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: study this? Like, where would this come from? Well, the 157 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: idea here is that it could shine light on the 158 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: whole idea of a death drive, that some suicides are 159 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: impulsive and have nothing to do with depression. UH. And 160 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: that was interesting. I hadn't really thought of that before myself, 161 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: but I could reading up more on Freud's death drive theory, 162 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: I guess I could see where that came from. Yeah, 163 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: I do have to say for my own part, I'm 164 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: I'm I'll entertain the possibility that that exists, but I'm 165 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: rather I'm rather doubtful that suicide is can occur or 166 00:08:55,480 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 1: does occur in any significant to any significant degree, completely 167 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: isolated from depression or willful intent. Yeah, like the idea 168 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: that someone's just like, oh I could jump off the 169 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: into the canyon and die, let's do it, bam, done, 170 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: the end the deal. Like, I can see the impulse 171 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: being a factor if there is already some underlying depression, 172 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: or if one already had some sort of a plan 173 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: in mind, and this is just like this is the 174 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: day that I act on it. Yeah, So you know, 175 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: I think that it's worth saying, like, uh, from my 176 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: subjective experience, like I said, I myself am not suicidal, 177 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: and I haven't. I've had what we will refer to 178 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: later as suicidal thinking, but I've never had suicidal planning. 179 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: And there's a major difference, right and and and this 180 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: is sort of the call of the void, the high 181 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: the high place phenomenon. Those are those are versions of 182 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: suicidal thinking. That's about as far as it's gone for me, right, Yeah, Well, 183 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: suicidal thinking. I feel like it's often tied into with 184 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: the romance suicide because we have so many stories and 185 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: you know these generally are very lopsided in their presentation 186 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: of suicide. Uh, the display it is this this noble 187 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: poetic thing that doomed dreamers and doomed lovers Romeo and Julia, Yeah, yeah, yeah, 188 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 1: But I we've all been teenagers, so we've all had 189 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: moments where we're like, oh, my life is so tragic, 190 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: and you might envision this scenario. But there's to your point, 191 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: there's a difference between envisioning it, daydreaming about it, and 192 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: UH and thinking about what everyone will say when you're gone, 193 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: versus actually putting some sort of plan in place. But 194 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: for our listeners, I do want to establish up front, 195 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: you know, I have experience with people who were suicidal 196 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 1: or have committed suicide, so I am sympathetic to that, 197 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: and I don't want this episode to feel like it's callous. 198 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:54,119 Speaker 1: This is connected to that, but it's a The suicidal 199 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,079 Speaker 1: thinking that goes along with call of the void syndrome 200 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: seems to be a are cry from the actual act 201 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: of it UM and but we're gonna get into that 202 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: at the end of the episode. So back to this research. 203 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: They found that more than thirty percent of the people 204 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: they talked to said they had experienced this UH phenomenon 205 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: at least once, and the researchers refer to it in 206 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 1: their study as high place phenomenon, they weren't taking into 207 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: account like throwing yourself in front of a train or 208 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: driving an oncoming traffic uh. They were also curious whether 209 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: it was related to a person's history of suicidal thinking, 210 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: and from their findings they found that it is common 211 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: even among people who have no depression or suicidal thinking history. 212 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: So this was their methodology. They asked four and thirty 213 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 1: one college students whether and how often they had experienced 214 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 1: the urge to jump off of tall things. Then they 215 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: examined their depressive symptoms in their history of suicidal thoughts. 216 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 1: They also took a look at how sensitive these people 217 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: were to anxiety, as well as how fearful they were 218 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: of anxiety symptoms such as an elevated heartbeat and shortness 219 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: of breath. Among those who had never had suicidal thoughts, 220 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: still seventeen percent of them had experienced the urge to jump. 221 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 1: Among those who had experienced with sidal thoughts, fifties six 222 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: percent experienced it. So that's significant if it lines up. 223 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: Now we'll talk there's a little bit of methodology stuff 224 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: with this, this that I've calling the question. The researchers 225 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: were also interested specifically in the sensitivity to reactive safety 226 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: signals and if that corresponded to a higher likelihood of 227 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:46,319 Speaker 1: experiencing the urge to jump. So to mark this reactivity, 228 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: they looked at levels of anxiety sensitivity, such as a 229 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: faster heartbeat. Uh. This was because previous research suggested that 230 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: high anxiety sensitivity is actually tied to a tendency for 231 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: us as human beings to misinterpret random, innocuous bodily sensations 232 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: as being dangerous. Yeah, we we tend to. We tend 233 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: to make that air and cognition, you know, because there 234 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: is a survival advantage in jumping to conclusions rather than 235 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: not making any conclusions. One gets you eaten by a tiger. 236 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,119 Speaker 1: One just means you go about your daily life constantly 237 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: looking for the tiger that might eave Yeah, I mean 238 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: I've actually experienced this, I'd say in like the last 239 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: two weeks, where like I'll get up and I'll read 240 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 1: about current events in the news, and my heart will 241 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: start beating rapidly and I'll go, oh, this is is 242 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: there something wrong? Do I need to go see my doctor? 243 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: And I realized it's anxiety. It's it's not normal, but 244 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: I'm having a normal anxious reaction to the things that 245 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: I'm reading about, right, But then my thought is like, oh, 246 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: what if I have a heart attack? You know, So 247 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: this is kind of along those lines where the idea 248 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: is that we misinterpret these random bodily sensations is being dangerous. Okay. 249 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: So their studies finding was that yes, more sensitivity to 250 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: anxiety was related to the frequency of the urge to jump, 251 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: especially in people who had never experienced suicidal thoughts. They 252 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: also interpreted this as people without a history of suicidal 253 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: thoughts as being more sensitive to bodily cues that they 254 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: could misinterpret. So that's interesting. So if you've never experienced 255 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: suicidal thoughts, they're saying, you're more likely to interpret say 256 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: like your heart beating faster as as something of danger. 257 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: It's interesting. Yeah, I mean it's kind of like if 258 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: you if you've ever had an anxiety attack, if you 259 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: if you have, if you have one and they're rare 260 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: than the first time you have one, it can be 261 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: extremely alarmente. If you think, oh, oh goodness, I'm about 262 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: to die now. So the study ultimately translates as follows. 263 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: People with high anxiety sensitivity were more likely to have 264 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: higher chances of suicidal thoughts. Okay, that makes sense. So 265 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: if you're sensitive to the bodily reactions and you're worried 266 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: about being anxious, then you're more likely to have suicidal thoughts. 267 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: But subsequently, you were also more likely to report experiencing 268 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: this call of the void phenomenon. So that's interesting. Why 269 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: do we experience this though Like? Where is this coming from? Well, 270 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and we come back. We'll 271 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: dive into that very question. All right, we're back. So 272 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: one theory about this call of the void phenomenon or 273 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: the idea of high place phenomenon, is that there's something 274 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: going on with a temporary uncoupling of our different perceptual 275 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: systems in our brains. It's kind of like cognitive dissonance. Yeah. Yeah. 276 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: The idea, and this come up comes up all the 277 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: time on the podcast, the idea that you have two 278 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: different ideas, two different inclinations in your mind, and they 279 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: conflict with each other. So the classic, the easy one 280 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: to go through here, of course, is oh, I I 281 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: think homosexuality is wrong, but I have homosexual thoughts in 282 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: my head. These two do not go with one another, 283 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: um and this generates it's kind of a friction in 284 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: the mind exactly. So their theory was that when you're 285 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: standing on the edge of a skyscraper, your brain has 286 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: fast fear circuitry, that's what they called it. Obviously it's 287 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: not circuitry that and this may alert you of danger, 288 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: just the danger of hey, you could fall, But then 289 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: our perceptual system in our brain is slower than our 290 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: fear system, and that kicks in afterwards and it makes 291 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: you realize there's actually no danger. So to make sense 292 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: of the safety signal, our brain mixes this up as 293 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: cognitive dissonance and we assume we want to jump, which 294 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: is why people get confused by this. So this is interesting. 295 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: So individuals who are experiencing this are not necessarily suicidal. Instead, 296 00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: it seems to reflect their sensitivity to internal cues affirming 297 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: their actual will to live. So that lines up with 298 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: what we're saying earlier that they're sensitive to like oh, 299 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: I'm feeling anxious or oh I'm feeling depressed or whatever. 300 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: So it makes sense that they would be more sensitive 301 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: to their uh, both their fear system and their perception system. Yeah, 302 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 1: I do like how the main idea here is that 303 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: you're safe, but you're still taking in the censury data 304 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: that says you're not safe. And I think that we 305 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: we actually get a little bit of this when we 306 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 1: watch a particularly terrifying video like we've all, especially within 307 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: the age of go pro. I'm sure everyone has seen 308 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: like base jumping, crazy skiing videos, stuff with great heights, 309 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: or people climbing up antennas. And you watch it and 310 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 1: you couldn't be more safe watching it in your you know, 311 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,160 Speaker 1: living room, in your office, on your phone or your 312 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: personal computer. But you feel a visceral, you know, and 313 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: if it's probably empathic, but also you're taking in certain 314 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: sense data about a dangerous environment and you can't help 315 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 1: it feel part of that. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting, and 316 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: I think I'm leaning towards agreeing with this theory. But 317 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: let's remember that this study, there's only one study on 318 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: this as far as I can tell, and it isn't conclusive. Um, 319 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: their explanation is simply theoretical and it doesn't have neurological evidence. Uh. 320 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 1: The methodology also has some weaknesses, so let's acknowledge those. 321 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 1: First of all, they only used university students, and let's 322 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 1: be honest, university students are not representative of humanity, right right, Yeah, 323 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: it tends to be a profile of a very specific 324 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: socio economic, racial division of society. Yeah. And the volunteers 325 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,199 Speaker 1: themselves were confessing, well, they may have misremembered their experience 326 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: or even falsely reported it. So that doesn't mean the 327 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: studies flawed. It just means we need more research. Um. 328 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: So a proposal for this is to actually conduct an 329 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: experiment where scientists would have to take subjects and position 330 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 1: them at different high It's to test at what elevation 331 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: they begin having the thought to jump. Um. And there's 332 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,719 Speaker 1: another explanation that goes along I think with what you 333 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 1: were saying about the watching those videos, which is that 334 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: it could simply be connected to our thrill of not 335 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: buckling under fear, which is a kind of cognitive dissonance. Um. 336 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: This is the same reason why we go to haunted houses, right, 337 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: both real and uh, you know, fun haunted houses. But 338 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: like think about like when you're a little kid, uh 339 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: and somebody says, let's go that house over there is haunted, 340 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: I dare you to go into it, Right, It's kind 341 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: of the same vibe. Uh. And then subsequently you go 342 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: to something like I don't know. Our version is another 343 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: world here in Atlanta. You go to that, you know 344 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: somebody's gonna jump out with a fake chainsaw and try 345 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 1: to scare you. But the thrill of overcoming that fear 346 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: is part of why you go and pay money to 347 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 1: do it. Yeah, I mean it feels you with endorphins. 348 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: You're you're very much living in the moment. People who 349 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 1: aren't into meditation or yoga still might go to a 350 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: haunted house or watch a scary movie, and that's that's 351 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: kind of meditative in a sense. It puts you in 352 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: the now. It's It's probably another reason why jump scares 353 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: are so successful in horror films, right, there's an addiction 354 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: to it. Yeah, And it's simple and it works, and 355 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: it ties into our basic evolutionary state to be on 356 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: the lookout for the tiger that jumps out of the grass. Now, 357 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 1: there's a no take on all of this, and it 358 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: ties in I think nicely to what you said about 359 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 1: the varying heights. At what height does it kick in? 360 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 1: For my own part, I feel like there is definitely 361 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 1: a difference between any call of the void that occurs 362 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: at at lower heights as opposed to like truly awesome 363 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 1: heights like Grand Canyon, cliff Edge type he total obliteration. Yeah, 364 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: total obliteration, I think is the thing because it's such, 365 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: it's such a it would be such a drastic choice. Okay, 366 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: it would be such a choice between life and and 367 00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: and I don't know. I almost to say death like 368 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: puts too much of an atmospheric twist on it, but 369 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,360 Speaker 1: more like between being an un being and I think 370 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: this is I keep thinking this is the two roads 371 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 1: diverge in a Yellow Woods approach. Um. So in the 372 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: Choose your Own Adventure book that is life, we encounter 373 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 1: plenty of forking paths, right, but many of these are 374 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: hardly choices at all. I mean, on some level, we 375 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: all choose whether they're going to go to work this 376 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: morning or find a liquor store and drink our purchase 377 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: in the woods behind the Yeah, I think, yeah, I 378 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: mean for most of us, a lot of people struggle 379 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: with that every morning. Well, some people realistically do. No 380 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: I'm not, I'm not being sarchotetica, but but for many 381 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: of us, it's not really a choice. Like the things 382 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 1: we do are the things we do. We have this 383 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: pattern and there's really this is where we get into 384 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: that idea that we're not really making choices and more 385 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: if at all, however, there are choices that are more 386 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: real than others, where two paths of equal weight and 387 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: possibility are presented and uh, and what is weightier than 388 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: the old to be or not to be? The choice 389 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: between being and unding that stands before us when we 390 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: stand at the edge of a great expanse. So it's 391 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 1: not so much that we're tempted, but that our path 392 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: choosing brain can't help but engage in one of its 393 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: many cognitive superpowers, cognitive superpower that we all possess and 394 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 1: uh and used to thrive. And this is a chronosthesia, 395 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: which is also known as mental time travel. So this 396 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: entails our ability to be aware of our past and 397 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: future and to envision multiple possible futures before us. So 398 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: it's the key to our survival. But it's also the 399 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: reason you might listen to NPR in the morning and 400 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: mentally time travel to the dawn of the Third World War. 401 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: So it's that anxiety, Yeah, the anxiety. Anxiety comes out 402 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: and you feel it in your body. So in that 403 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 1: moment in the car listening to NPR, we're forced to 404 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: wonder what what we're capable of, what we're willing to 405 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: lose to gain, And on some level, it's kind of 406 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: like the you know, the scene in the Old Testament 407 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: with Abraham raising that dagger up in the sky and 408 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: then above his son Isaac, and it's just a will 409 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 1: the hand of the angel come in time to spare him? Right? Yeah? Yeah, 410 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 1: looking to something beyond, which gets into that Freudian aspect. Yeah, 411 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 1: So that's another possible explanation for it. I tend to 412 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 1: feel like we've got some of this, definitely a part 413 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: of it. But I also think the cognitive dissonance argument 414 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: is also very valid, and it does like we've talked 415 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: before on the show about how situations of cognitive dissonance 416 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 1: often lend themselves well to supernatural experience. Let's not just 417 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: say actual supernatural occurrence, but the experience of something supernatural 418 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 1: to us, especially in our demon possession exorcism Matters, aism 419 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: episode that is hugely tied to cognitive dissonance. Yeah, and 420 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: when you get down to it, like the the idea 421 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 1: of of encountering the choice between being and unbing this 422 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: this kind of panicky pondering over to what extent you 423 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: have free will, old to what extent you have control 424 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: over your fate. I mean that is that's pretty supernatural 425 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: sounding to me. Yeah. Yeah, Well this is a good 426 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 1: opportunity for us to get into a guy who, let's 427 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 1: be honest, in some situations, was quasi supernatural. Uh. And 428 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 1: his name was Sigmund Freud. Uh. So Freud after a 429 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: lot of his better known principles UH connected this to well, 430 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 1: the phenomenon to an idea that sometimes is referred to 431 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: as a death wish, although that just calls to mind 432 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 1: Charles Bronson for me. But it is referred to as 433 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 1: the death drive, articulated in his nineteen essay Beyond the 434 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: Pleasure Principle, and this describes a drive in all of 435 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:52,479 Speaker 1: us towards self destruction and a return to the inorganic. Now, 436 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,360 Speaker 1: I used a paper by Joanne Faulkner on the subject 437 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: to sort of see unpas package this. Now. She argues 438 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: that the death drive is when Freud departs from scientific 439 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: methodology entirely, and it articulates what he thought of as 440 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: higher functions in the psyche that weren't necessarily empirical. Okay, 441 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 1: So this is why I say, like we're getting into 442 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 1: supernatural territory here. Freud thought this was beyond science. Um, 443 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: it's highly speculative and it's not grounded in scientific perspective. 444 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 1: But Freud's idea was that the death drive circumvented our 445 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: pleasure in an effort to undo a person as an 446 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: organic whole, and so as such it gave us both 447 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: pleasure and discomfort. I can sort of see where he's 448 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: coming from here based on what we were previously talking 449 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: about with like, I don't know, scares right, Like it's 450 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: both pleasurable and uncomfortable. But his idea, of course, being Freud, 451 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: there has to be this model framework to that everything 452 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,439 Speaker 1: fits within, and it was that the death drive was 453 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 1: the opposite of what he called the life drive or 454 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: the libido. And while the libido attaches itself to others 455 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: and creates ties of affection, the death drive destroys relationships 456 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: and strives for disintegration. So if the libido manifests insects, 457 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: the death drive manifests in aggression, and if this is 458 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: directed inward, it could result in suicide. But here's the thing. 459 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: Does the death drive lead to what we today understand 460 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: as depression? Right? Like Freud didn't really have a grasp 461 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 1: on that the way we do now. It's possible if 462 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: it's directed inward, I guess. But in fact, some Eastern 463 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: philosophy indicates that self centered acts maybe a form of 464 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 1: this kind of self destruction, That selfishness itself isolates us 465 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: from others, leads us to not having support. So maybe 466 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 1: there's a little bit of a connection between depression and 467 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: death drive. I've I don't know. I'm not on board 468 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: with this. I see how it could sort of make 469 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 1: sense at the time, and it's connected to thoughts that 470 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: we're having. But huh, what is interesting you mentioned the 471 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 1: Eastern philosophies. It is interesting to think of self destruction 472 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,199 Speaker 1: perhaps is it's not merely well, let's say, to to 473 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: take self destruction and think of it in terms of 474 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: of of the of of the wheel of sam Sara 475 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: and the different states and the idea that you know, 476 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 1: you're reincarnated into two upper and lower forms. Yeah, one 477 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: of the realms is that of the hungry ghosts, where 478 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: one is just you know, constantly grasping for something and 479 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 1: and and unable to to fill yourself with it. And 480 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: and there's another realm, which is more of the hell room. 481 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: And this is where I feel like things really line 482 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: up with this idea of death drive just this, you know, rageful, uh, 483 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: you know, assault on the things that anger you. I 484 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: can give you like a personal version of this that 485 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: I experience. And this might be a little bit t 486 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 1: m I, but um I often I'm compelled by the 487 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: urge to just go be somewhere in complete isolation. Like 488 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,719 Speaker 1: I think when I when I have this urge, it's like, oh, 489 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: I like a like a rundown motel in the middle 490 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: of nowhere, off of a highway somewhere, right, and I'll 491 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 1: just sitting there for a week. Like there's something about 492 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: that that's just very compelling to me. And I don't 493 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 1: want to destroy myself. I don't want to commit suicide, 494 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: but there's something about it that that draws me there. Right. 495 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: And I think based on what you're talking about here, 496 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: so there's a similar idea here, right, Like if you 497 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: believe in reincarnation and you think yourself, well, if I die, 498 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be reincarnated, possibly as a lower life form. Right, 499 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: there's something kind of zen about that, Right, There's something 500 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: kind of relaxing about the idea of like I'll come 501 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: back as a toad. Let's just live life as a toad, 502 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: and I won't have as many concerns to bear. It's true, yeah, now, 503 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: but I like this idea that you brought up here too, 504 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: because it also brings to mind like what each of 505 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: us are. So we're certainly we're we're an organism that's 506 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: that's alive. We're also an organism that's is generally moving 507 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: in various uh, social spheres. And you have all of 508 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: these kind of like invisible spider webs of social obligation 509 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: all around us. And so to just to walk away 510 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: from all of that for say a week and go 511 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: to this cabin in the woods, you are not necessarily 512 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,479 Speaker 1: destroying yourself, but you might be doing damage to these 513 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: various social spider webs that are that have bound you 514 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: up totally. And I can see where it would be 515 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: at once liberating to walk away from all of those, 516 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: uh and then but then at the same time many 517 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: would argue, well, that is self destructive. You were doing 518 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: damage to these social structures that had helped maintain you. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, 519 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: and that's compelling to write. The pop culture example of 520 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: this that drew me in the most and my wife 521 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: immediately recognized it when we saw this, and she's like, 522 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: you love this, don't you was And spoilers for this 523 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: TV show if you don't want to, you might learn 524 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: something you don't want to know about Breaking Bad here. 525 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: But in Breaking Bad, there's a point where the main 526 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: character it goes in hiding to New Hampshire for a 527 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: year and he just lives in a small cottage with 528 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: nothing but like, you know, canned food and newspapers for 529 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: a year and he just sits there and thinks on 530 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: what he's done and sleeps and eats and he just 531 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: is and he's entrapped by snow when we find him. 532 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: And I saw it and I was just like, oh god, 533 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: that that seems like the best vacation ever to me, 534 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: but at the cost of all of his social relationships, 535 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: which is sort of the point in the show. Uh. 536 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: You know, this reminds me a lot of a Warren 537 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: Zevon song. That's when I when I have this feeling, 538 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: I'll play this song and listen to his up splendid isolation. 539 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: It's great because the lyrics are basically rolling through these 540 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: three different through or four different scenarios that he is 541 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: craving like I want to live on the Upper east 542 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: Side and never go down in the street, you know, 543 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: put tinfoil up on the window. I want to live 544 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: in the desert like Georgia O'Keefe. You know these kind 545 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: of scenarios where um, we're we're Laren is talking about 546 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: just walking away from everything and just uh encapsulating himself 547 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: in uh in in in total isolation and and ultimately 548 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: kind of self destructive self centeredness, because he ends up 549 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: like making comparisons to UH to Neverland Ranch interesting, you know, 550 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: locking yourself up in your own private disney sort of thing. 551 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: While I never put tinfoil on my window, but in 552 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: my twenties I have to admit, Uh, I took cardboard 553 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: and nailed it up over all the windows in my 554 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 1: bedroom just because like I wanted complete and utter darkness 555 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: in there. Did you have a black light poster? No? No, 556 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: I didn't missed opportunity mushroom wizards. Well, back to this 557 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: freud thing, I think it reeks of the subjective. It's 558 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: a little bit of magical thinking, which is fun, but 559 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: most people in this realm, in this discipline, think of 560 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: it as being eccentric. Regardless it does apply to depression. 561 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: If you understand that there's an innate voice that wishes 562 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: for death and destruction, well that's that's helpful, right at 563 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: least in therapy you can help separate that and distance 564 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: yourself from those thoughts, and that takes away their power 565 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: and allows you to challenge them and minimize them and 566 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 1: disregard them. So there's something to that. People who have 567 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: just like outright dismiss Freud. I'm sort of in the middle, like, 568 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: I don't buy it a hundred percent of the time, 569 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: but I do think that there's some value and that 570 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: he helped the profession sort of edge along slow. Yeah. 571 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: I mean I always come back to my my lens analogy, 572 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: where what I would I want to walk around with 573 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 1: with the Freud lens in place all the time, with 574 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: my Freud goggles on all the time. No, I would not, 575 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: But I do find it is helpful in varying scenarios 576 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 1: to pull the the Freud lens down over my own 577 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: vision of my own worldview and think, oh, well, how 578 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: might this apply to the current scenario, What does what 579 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 1: how does Freud illuminate what's going on here? Well, why 580 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: don't we take a quick break and when we come back, 581 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: we're going to delve into some actual statistics about suicidal 582 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: thinking that may help us unravel this call of the 583 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: void phenomenon a little more. All Right, we're back. So 584 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: when mental health professionals refer to these call of the 585 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: void moments, they usually call it suicidal ideation. But that 586 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: term seems broad for our p is here today, So 587 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: let's let's try to separate out what the difference might be. Okay, 588 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: In twleven, the CDC conducted a really big study examining 589 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: statistics about suicide, suicidal thinking, uh and um, suicidal preparation, 590 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: and they found that three point seven percent of adults 591 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: in the United States had had suicidal thoughts in just 592 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,359 Speaker 1: the last year. Now, let's put that into perspective. That's 593 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 1: eight point three million people. That's a lot of people. 594 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: Other studies have placed this even higher, saying that it's 595 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,360 Speaker 1: actually around eight to ten percent of the population. Now 596 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: let's look at the previous study on the high place phenomenon. 597 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,320 Speaker 1: That's not even close to the thirty to fifty percent 598 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: of people who reported that they had experienced that phenomenon. Right, 599 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: So it seems like what we think of as suicidal 600 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,760 Speaker 1: ideation and and high place phenomenon or call of the void, 601 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: those are different. It's is like suggests that there's there's 602 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,399 Speaker 1: some kind of different thought process going on there. Yeah. 603 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: And of course with all this, it depends on exactly 604 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: how you're phrasing the question and how the individual on 605 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: the other end views suicidal thoughts, uh, et cetera. I mean, 606 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: because the big thing is like, what does that individual's 607 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: culture say about suicide? Now, even there there's this is 608 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: the kind of thing that we would have to bust 609 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: out in a longer episode, but even within the United 610 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: States that you're going to have varying subsets of people 611 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,399 Speaker 1: that are going to have different ideas about suicide. Yeah, 612 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: and that actually plays in these statistics as well. Uh. 613 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 1: In the c d C report, they actually summarize the 614 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,359 Speaker 1: data on ninety two thousand, two hundred and sixty four respondents. 615 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:50,359 Speaker 1: But this establishes a difference between having suicidal thoughts and 616 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: actually making plans for a suicide or attempting it. Plans 617 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: and attempts are very different from just thinking about it. Okay, 618 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: the estimate it's very based on a couple of things, 619 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,240 Speaker 1: sociodemographic factors as well, as the region of the country 620 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: that you live in. So what you're just saying here 621 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: we go. Suicidal thoughts were higher among young adults between 622 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,919 Speaker 1: the ages of eighteen to twenty nine than they were 623 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: for people over thirty. It was also significantly higher for 624 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: women in general. Non Hispanic Whites were the group with 625 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: the highest prevalence of suicidal thoughts, while non Hispanic Asians 626 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 1: were the group with the lowest suicidal thoughts. And regional factors, 627 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: this is really complicated, but they think it could be 628 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: related to indicators such as divorce rates or resources to 629 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 1: access like healthcare. Uh, and so the cause and effect 630 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: relationship here is unknown, but there's a there's a couple 631 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: of things like, for instance, adults with less than a 632 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: high school education and those who were unemployed at the 633 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,320 Speaker 1: time were more likely to have these thoughts. Finally, those 634 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,240 Speaker 1: in the mid West and the West were more likely 635 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 1: to have suicidal thoughts than those in the Northeast in 636 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,359 Speaker 1: the South. Now, I don't know how to unpack that, 637 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: but what you presented sounds sounds close, which is that like, 638 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: various cultures have different beliefs about suicide, right and and 639 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,240 Speaker 1: or like they said that there's like real world factors 640 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: like how much access they have to healthcare or or 641 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: or do they have a job, things like that. So 642 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: there's limitations to this accounting though that we should note 643 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:34,279 Speaker 1: as well. For instance, previous studies indicate that adults, when 644 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 1: they're talking about suicidal thoughts, they under report, especially when 645 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: they're talking about when they were adolescents. So if they're 646 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: adults now and they're saying, well, when I was an adolescent, 647 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 1: this is you know, this is how often I experience 648 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: that they're they they're known to under report. That makes 649 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,800 Speaker 1: sense to me. Yeah, I mean, I mean, you're a 650 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: different person when you're adult when you're an adolescent, so 651 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:59,760 Speaker 1: you're really kind of teasing apart the thoughts and motivations 652 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,919 Speaker 1: of of a different you entire. So I can see 653 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:04,799 Speaker 1: where there might be a tendency to say, oh, well 654 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 1: that that that twenty year old me, that eighteen year 655 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 1: old me. You didn't know what you're talking about, not 656 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,760 Speaker 1: even serious about that. And this study also didn't account 657 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: for a couple of populations. Uh. First of all, institutionalized populations, 658 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,759 Speaker 1: which would probably have, I mean, we would assume would 659 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 1: have a higher rate of thinking about suicide, and it 660 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,359 Speaker 1: totally cut out any kind of Native American populations. So 661 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: and that wasn't like on purpose, it was just because 662 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 1: they didn't have access to enough evidence. Yeah, I think 663 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 1: there is a large factor here that comes down to 664 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: is suicide an open pathway to this individual? Is it 665 00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 1: at all socially acceptable? To what degree is it socially acceptable? 666 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 1: And that is going to be governed by your culture, 667 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 1: your history. Indeed, what what books and movies, what beats 668 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 1: of bits of fiction you know, you you value? These 669 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 1: are all going to help to skew this idea of 670 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 1: of whether or not suicide is a practical option for 671 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 1: an individual. Yeah, but very different from the idea of 672 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 1: standing on a ledge and looking and just kind of 673 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: getting that urge to just right. So that's why I 674 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,399 Speaker 1: put these statistics in here to sort of just give 675 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 1: you like, these are very different things, and we can 676 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 1: see the statistical differences just between these two studies. It's 677 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,760 Speaker 1: also worth remembering all of this stuff for both studies 678 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 1: is self reported, and that is not a reliable. Now 679 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: to to sort of pull out of the gloomier aspects 680 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 1: of this this topic, um, I will ask everyone to 681 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 1: to think about the call of the void you know, uh, 682 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: the situation in which the gravity of disastrous choices. You know, 683 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 1: it's not merely anxiety inducing or or threatening to one 684 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,840 Speaker 1: sense of self control, but it is exhilarating. It's it's 685 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 1: it's sort of endorphin pumping high that want to chievee 686 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: from skydiving or even less dangerous smaller acts. And and 687 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,280 Speaker 1: plus what is the true call of the void but 688 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 1: but a contemplation, however, unformed of oblivion, a complete emptying 689 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 1: of self, not merely hearing the call of the void, 690 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: but but kind of touching the void, having almost a 691 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,359 Speaker 1: spiritual moment. To go back to that quote from Call 692 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: the Wild again, you know something that is at once 693 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: splendid and terrible. Yeah, And so, as we've been doing 694 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 1: in some of our episodes recently, we want to make 695 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 1: sure if you heard this and this like touched upon 696 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 1: something for you, and and you were hearing these statistics 697 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: or whatever and you thought, well, this this resonates within me, 698 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: and I'm a little concerned. There's actually a nonprofit that 699 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,759 Speaker 1: we would like to throw a line out too, so 700 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: that you, in case you're feeling that way, have some support. 701 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 1: And it's the National Suicide Prevention lifeline. Uh, it's a 702 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: support line. It's seven, it's free, it's totally confidential. It's 703 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,320 Speaker 1: for people who are in distress. Uh. And it helps 704 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 1: prevent I sees and provides resources for you and your 705 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,280 Speaker 1: loved ones. So maybe it's not you, Maybe it's somebody 706 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 1: you know. Uh So the number for that is one 707 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: eight hundred two seven three eight to five five. Again, 708 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 1: it's one eight hundred two seven three eight two five five. 709 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 1: All right, And hey, if you want to hear more 710 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Plow your Mind, if you want 711 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,319 Speaker 1: to check out videos, blog post, you name it links 712 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,279 Speaker 1: out to our social media accounts, head on over to 713 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's right, and 714 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,879 Speaker 1: I want to hear from you, the audience. Have you 715 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: experienced the call of a void? Have you thought about 716 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: jumping off a tall building or the Grand Canyon or 717 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,840 Speaker 1: maybe even onto a train track before, but of course 718 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:45,880 Speaker 1: you didn't want to. You just got mixed up with 719 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 1: these feelings inside. That's that's basically how we all feel nowadays. 720 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: I'm just so mixed up with these feelings inside. Uh, 721 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 1: let us know. You can let us know on Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler, 722 00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,560 Speaker 1: or Instagram, or you can write us at blow the 723 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,320 Speaker 1: mind at how stuff Works dot com, and it close 724 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 1: out here today. I'm just gonna read another quote. This 725 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,000 Speaker 1: one comes from a book by Robert Graves. Number of 726 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,320 Speaker 1: you may be familiar with him from his more popular 727 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 1: work such as I Claudius, But he also wrote a 728 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,959 Speaker 1: book called Goodbye to All That, and he talks about 729 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 1: the Great Woar. He talks about mountain climbing, And this 730 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:19,800 Speaker 1: is just a quick quote where he talks about climbing. 731 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,439 Speaker 1: My worst climb was on a little wit, the most 732 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,960 Speaker 1: formidable of the precipices, when at a point that needed 733 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:31,880 Speaker 1: most concentration, a raven circled round the party in great sweeps. 734 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 1: I found this curiously unsettling, because one climbs only up 735 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 1: and down or sideways, and the ravens seem to be 736 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 1: suggesting diverse other possible dimensions of movement, tempting us to 737 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:57,800 Speaker 1: let go our hold and join him. Well more on 738 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:09,040 Speaker 1: this and pathans of other topic How Stuff Works up home. 739 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:19,800 Speaker 1: I think many about f