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Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic production of I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a really important behavior. If people realize

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Speaker 1: I think it's okay to fail, comes out a silking

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Speaker 1: valid and fail fast, get smarter quick. We don't want

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Speaker 1: to be a traditional player in the space. We want

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Speaker 1: to be the provocatur Hi. I'm Bob Pittman. Welcome back

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Speaker 1: to Math and Magic. Stories from the Frontiers and Marketing.

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Speaker 1: On each episode, we explored the interaction of the two

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Speaker 1: keys to successful marketing and business, the analytics, the math,

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Speaker 1: the data, and the creative and the magical ideas created

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Speaker 1: to respond to identified needs or opportunities. Today we have

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Speaker 1: someone in the middle of the transformation of the advertising

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Speaker 1: and media business to reflect the possibilities and full potential

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Speaker 1: unleashed by technology. He's a pioneer of digital advertising and

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Speaker 1: sits a top Group M at w PP, the world's

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Speaker 1: largest advertising and marketing holding company. He's Richtian Jewel, the

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Speaker 1: global CEO of Group M. Christian was born in Guam,

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Speaker 1: a military family kid who moved a lot from New

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Speaker 1: Hampshire to California. He wanted to be a pilot, but

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Speaker 1: his dad told him he was too tall. As a

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Speaker 1: young man. He had a great curiosity that opened the

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Speaker 1: world to him. He was a digital pioneer who survived

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Speaker 1: the dot com bust and emerged as a senior leader

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Speaker 1: of razor Fish, including its time as a part of

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Speaker 1: Microsoft and then Publicists. He went on to be the

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Speaker 1: global CEO for Essence before his current mission. He's been

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Speaker 1: in small and entrepreneurial and he's been at the largest

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Speaker 1: and has a unique perspectives as a result. He's known

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Speaker 1: for being a keen strategist, a transformation expert, and a

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Speaker 1: strong culture builder. He mountain bikes, plays golf skis and

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Speaker 1: is still tall. Christian Welcome, Thanks for having me. Before

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Speaker 1: we get started, I'd like to give everybody a quick

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Speaker 1: view of you in sixty seconds. Ready. Do you prefer

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Speaker 1: cats or dogs? Thoughts or early riser or night owl?

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Speaker 1: Early riser? The wire or the crown? The wire? T

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Speaker 1: shirt or tie T shirt? Hiking or fishing, Hiking to

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Speaker 1: a good fishing spot, Michigan or Alaska? Alaska? Trombone or

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Speaker 1: trumpet trumpet? Work life balance or work life integration? Favorite band?

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Speaker 1: What have I've been listening to? Billy Strings? If you

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Speaker 1: weren't working in marketing, what would you be doing teaching

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Speaker 1: childhood hero my dad favorite brand from your childhood, Alexander

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Speaker 1: Colure has made these great sweaters and I thought they

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Speaker 1: were so cool. Never had one pretty expensive back in

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Speaker 1: the day marketing campaign you're most proud of. I love

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Speaker 1: the Nike work that we did. Guilty Pleasure Pringles ideal

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Speaker 1: Sunday afternoon, walking the dog with my son. First concert

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Speaker 1: Paul Sign and Rhythm of the Saints. My mother took

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Speaker 1: me first job washing dishes at Pasta Fresco outside Sacramento, California. Okay,

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Speaker 1: the last one. If you could time trap, would you

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Speaker 1: go back to the past or go to the future future.

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Speaker 1: Let's get started way back in one we launched MTV,

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Speaker 1: one of the first cable only networks, and at that

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Speaker 1: time Nielsen just measured viewing a broadcast TV. You can

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Speaker 1: imagine the advertiser's reaction. Great idea, come back to me

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Speaker 1: when you've got some numbers. But a couple of folks

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Speaker 1: saw this as an opportunity to get a jump on competitors.

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Speaker 1: Roger and Rico was running Pepsi at the time and

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Speaker 1: was hell bent on moving his share against Coke. He

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Speaker 1: saw these young people watching MTV so in the absence

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Speaker 1: of any ratings, he buys us. Coke, on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: said we have no interest until you have measurement, and

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Speaker 1: Coke sat on the sidelines for over five years. In

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Speaker 1: that time, Roger moved the market share of Pepsi against

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Speaker 1: Coke the most it's ever been moved before or after.

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Speaker 1: And this example, Pepsi picked performance, even though it's harder

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Speaker 1: to quantify. Coke chose measurement. In the next decade, when

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Speaker 1: we took the Internet to the mass market, I was

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Speaker 1: at a o L at the time in the nineteen

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Speaker 1: nineties and is reminded over half the traffic of the

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Speaker 1: Internet in the US came through a o L in

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Speaker 1: those days, and we did have the data, metrics and performance.

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Speaker 1: Yet the major agencies at that time ignored digital l abvertizing.

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Speaker 1: Even though a o L had gone from few million

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Speaker 1: dollars in advertising to billions of dollars in that five

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Speaker 1: year period, eight percent of the ad revenue did not

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Speaker 1: come through agencies. This lack of adoption really opened the

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Speaker 1: door for all those digital only agencies that sprung up.

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Speaker 1: You are part of that and later had to be

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Speaker 1: acquired at much bigger prices. When it became obvious how

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Speaker 1: huge the digital tam was becoming. So two decades later

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Speaker 1: and two examples of dislocation at a time of change,

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Speaker 1: and here we are in You're now not the new guard.

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Speaker 1: You are the establishment. You're the global CEO of Group M,

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Speaker 1: though we're fifty billion billings thirty five thousand employees worldwide,

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Speaker 1: and you're evolving Group M to continue to be a

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Speaker 1: major leader. So here's the question. How are you evolving

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Speaker 1: the business, the structure and the culture to take advantage

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Speaker 1: of your unique data and enormous scale, and how do

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Speaker 1: you avoid the pitfalls like the ones I just mentioned

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Speaker 1: to make uncomfortable change acceptable to your organization. You know,

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Speaker 1: I talked about the early days of people taking risks

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Speaker 1: without actually understanding the full metrics or measurement or the

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Speaker 1: things that today we would take for granted. In terms

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Speaker 1: of putting a media deal together. I think there's always

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Speaker 1: an element in advertising and marketing about, you know, early

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Speaker 1: movers and those who are willing to take a chance

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Speaker 1: in the reward that can pay off with that. Early

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Speaker 1: days of the Internet, there were a lot of failures.

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Speaker 1: You know, I lived through a lot of it. I

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Speaker 1: mean I started on the Internet in company called us

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Speaker 1: Web and tragically bought my first house on my first

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Speaker 1: commission check I think in two thousand one, roughly five

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Speaker 1: days before the company filed for bankruptcy as March first,

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Speaker 1: and which was a rather trying moment for myself. When

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Speaker 1: you look at that, it's not even just about two

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Speaker 1: thousand one. If you look at even more recently, I'm

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Speaker 1: like women in Jeff Katzenberg doing Queeby and the amount

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Speaker 1: of money they're able to raise and then subsequent decline

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Speaker 1: to that business. So you're always in this place where

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Speaker 1: you're trying to make the right decisions about which media

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Speaker 1: partners to work with and which sort of creative outlets

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Speaker 1: are going to bring the most connection between brands and consumers,

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Speaker 1: and I think there's never a perfect formula for it.

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Speaker 1: Relative to home structuring group them, you talk about structure

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Speaker 1: and culture and let's stay culture first, actually, because I

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Speaker 1: think that's one of the biggest things coming out of

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Speaker 1: Microsoft and publicists and going in to run Essence, which

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Speaker 1: the time is about three people mostly in the UK,

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Speaker 1: founder led organization, really shaped my view on culture and

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Speaker 1: the power of culture as a true economic differentiator for

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Speaker 1: a business. Tell then people talk about culture. They put

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Speaker 1: mission revision on the walls and you see them around

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Speaker 1: your office and like, okay, great. But the very first

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Speaker 1: management meeting I had with the three founders of Essence,

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Speaker 1: we run it out of the little room and soho

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Speaker 1: LOFs in New York. And I was already for the job.

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Speaker 1: I started as a us CEO only, so I built

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Speaker 1: these plans and growth targets and key accounts and management

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Speaker 1: team structures and what we were going to do and

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Speaker 1: technology implementations. And I walk into this room and they're

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Speaker 1: already there, and there are four chairs facing each other

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Speaker 1: with no table in between, no screens, a little coffee bar,

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Speaker 1: and Matt Isaac's who was to see you at the Times,

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Speaker 1: has had a seat and before you can even know,

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Speaker 1: stending okay, I'm ready to show you, guys what I

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Speaker 1: think the North American plan should be. And he goes, no,

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Speaker 1: no, no no, We've got three hours just to talk about

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Speaker 1: how you're doing, what we think this thing might look

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Speaker 1: like and feel like over time. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you've ever done that, really, just sit there with no

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Speaker 1: table in a square with four people that you don't

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Speaker 1: really know that well well you're trying to impress them

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Speaker 1: about your knowledge of the business or what have you.

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Speaker 1: But it's extremely uncomfortable. There's no barriers and there was

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Speaker 1: no preconceived notion. And we sat there and sort of

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Speaker 1: hashed out an understanding of what Essence was and how

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Speaker 1: we wanted to treat each other as a management team,

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Speaker 1: and how we wanted that to show up in our people.

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Speaker 1: And I sum it up now and I've brought it

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Speaker 1: to group. I'm as well. It's assuming positive intent at

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Speaker 1: every turn, and I want everybody Group Time to feel

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Speaker 1: like this is the place where their expression is welcome,

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Speaker 1: where creative ideas are welcome, where they can disagree with management,

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Speaker 1: where they can speak up, and where they're trusted, and

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Speaker 1: where it's an environment of positive intent. When you took over,

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Speaker 1: you flew something like over two hundred thousand miles to

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Speaker 1: meet people all across group him. Were you doing those

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Speaker 1: kinds of meetings like you did with the founders of

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Speaker 1: Essence where you just sat and talked as opposed to

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Speaker 1: show me your presentation. Yeah, I have an odd entrance

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Speaker 1: point in the group them, right, we sold Essence into it.

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Speaker 1: So I was a turnout CEO. So I was sort

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Speaker 1: of a witness to the management team for three years.

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Speaker 1: When I took over the job about three years ago. Now,

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Speaker 1: one of the first things I did was just get

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Speaker 1: the management teams together, and I said, we're gonna do

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Speaker 1: things differently. We're gonna trust each other, we're gonna listen

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Speaker 1: to each other. We're going to build a strategy together,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to share that strategy with all thousand

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Speaker 1: employees so that they know what the purpose of Group

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Speaker 1: M is, what the purpose of the agencies are, how

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Speaker 1: we can count our technology division. Up until that point,

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Speaker 1: Group M was a collection of companies, and so trying

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Speaker 1: to sit down and talk about the future of this

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Speaker 1: industry and media is becoming technology driven. It looks more

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Speaker 1: like software than it looks like manual planning in media deals,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to get really good at automation and

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Speaker 1: and understanding technology. And that means investing hundreds of mens

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Speaker 1: and dollars and doing it once, not doing it in

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Speaker 1: sixty different methods with different partners in every market around

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Speaker 1: the world, and getting people aligned to that type of thinking.

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Speaker 1: It requires a singularity of culture and understanding of how

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Speaker 1: we're going to hold each other to account. In Even

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Speaker 1: during the lockdown, you hosted a video series called The Regroup.

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Speaker 1: What was that tool for in this cultural transformation? It

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Speaker 1: was the way to stay connected, in a way to

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Speaker 1: burn forward a lot of diverse voices from around the

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Speaker 1: world with us, and I was talking to people in

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Speaker 1: Pakistan and in India and in Europe, across the US,

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Speaker 1: and to remind people of who's on the other end

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Speaker 1: of the phone or the team's call. In this case,

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Speaker 1: we really want to go wide and deep into the organization.

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Speaker 1: We want to hear employee stories, We want to hear

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Speaker 1: about the client work they were excited about. Between the

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Speaker 1: reaction to that and your two hundred thousand miles of

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Speaker 1: traveling and the listening tour, what revelations came out of

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Speaker 1: it that you probably wouldn't have gotten had you not

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Speaker 1: done those. I would say the amount of strength and

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Speaker 1: some of our markets around the world, the amount of

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Speaker 1: relationships with you know, the publisher's side and the client side.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you go to market like India and

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Speaker 1: we're close to market share, it's just a massive market

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Speaker 1: with incredible strength from Group M and w PP there

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Speaker 1: and it's just really really impressive to see the kind

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Speaker 1: of clients that they work with and the programs they

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Speaker 1: are able to put in place. And then when you

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Speaker 1: go to other markets where we're still growing and learning,

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Speaker 1: you know, just incredibly diverse business. You know, I think

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Speaker 1: our on was forty two as and employees and eighty

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Speaker 1: two different countries. I mean, it's just continues to grow

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Speaker 1: in the strength even at that scale is really really impressive.

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Speaker 1: You talked about some elements of corporate culture here and

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Speaker 1: your values positive intent, trust, listen to each other, accountability,

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Speaker 1: what else is important to you and that value system

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Speaker 1: that builds up the corporate culture. Risk taking. I think

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Speaker 1: that we really have to be willing to change ourselves

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Speaker 1: and to realize that the way we've been doing things

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Speaker 1: is not the way that will be successful doing things

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Speaker 1: going forward. The migration in the digital, migration into programmatic

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Speaker 1: I mean I really rapidly accelerated our investment in programmatic channels,

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Speaker 1: pushing out a home into digital formats, looking what we're

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Speaker 1: doing connected television, new partnerships like the Netflix Microsoft partnership.

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Speaker 1: How do we embrace those in a way that we're

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Speaker 1: not scared of holding onto things in the past that

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Speaker 1: we're really successful with, but realizing you know, will find

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Speaker 1: ways to be successful in these new markets, and our

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Speaker 1: clients count on us to lead them into these new opportunities.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's a really important behavior of people

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Speaker 1: who realize that it's okay to fail, you know, and

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Speaker 1: it comes out of silicon value and fail fast, get

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Speaker 1: smarter quick, And we don't want to be a traditional

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Speaker 1: player in the space. We want to be the provocateur.

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Speaker 1: I suspect coming into your job, you found that probably

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Speaker 1: the appetite for that risk taking and the fear of

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Speaker 1: failure probably was at another level than you needed. How

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Speaker 1: did you change that? How did you get people comfortable

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Speaker 1: with that? What's really important? And the key thing that

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Speaker 1: I did was I did that tour around the world

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Speaker 1: and we formed something called our our Synergy Strategy, which

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Speaker 1: was really just defining Group M as a global organization,

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Speaker 1: the accountabilities between management agencies and ambition to build a

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Speaker 1: large global shared services and media delivery organization. And we're

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Speaker 1: making great progress on it. I mean, it's showing up

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Speaker 1: in our new business wins, it's showing up in client

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Speaker 1: satisfaction scores and the other piece. And I would just

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Speaker 1: give a credit to Mark even us, you know, he

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Speaker 1: asked me to take over group them three and a

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Speaker 1: half years ago. I mean I never saw coming, and

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Speaker 1: I literally said, you would not want me to do

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Speaker 1: what I want to do to group them. That's the CEO.

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Speaker 1: I just said, I can't imagine what I want to

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Speaker 1: do with something that's attractive to you. I write a

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Speaker 1: whole new blueprint and I sketched out for im on

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Speaker 1: a piece of paper, and he goes go to it.

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Speaker 1: You have a complete, total authority to do ever you

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Speaker 1: need to do to make those changes. I think that's

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Speaker 1: what needs to do. Also more on math and magic

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Speaker 1: right after this quick break. Welcome back to math and magic.

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Speaker 1: Let's hear more from my conversation with Christian Jewel. I

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Speaker 1: want to go back in time just a little bit

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Speaker 1: to get some more context on you. You were born

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Speaker 1: in the early seventies, grew up moving around as a

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Speaker 1: kid in the eighties and nineties. Can you paint the

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Speaker 1: picture of those times and your life? Then? My families

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Speaker 1: from Michigan, sort of Midwestern cultures and values to family.

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Speaker 1: My mom's school teacher. My dad join the military out

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Speaker 1: of Vietnam and shows the Air Force. You know, his

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Speaker 1: first station was in Guam, and you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: remember much about it, but when they were moved to

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Speaker 1: New Atwer and kind of spend some time there, and

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Speaker 1: I remember a pretty traditional family, you know, my dad

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Speaker 1: it's kind of home by five, and my mom's a

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Speaker 1: teacher and be home and we dump dinner together, an

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Speaker 1: older sister and a younger brother. And we moved to Alaska.

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Speaker 1: You know, Alaska was great. We're outside a lot. We

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Speaker 1: had a camper trailer, and we spent almost all summer

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Speaker 1: out at the river fishing and pike in picking blueberries.

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Speaker 1: And we had a family car game called Cutthroat, which

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Speaker 1: is sort of a lot like gym and we don't

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Speaker 1: play that and pretty simple and very very nice. And

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Speaker 1: then we moved down to California. Talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about that moving. How did all this moving affect you.

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Speaker 1: It's only in recent years I've actually come to think

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Speaker 1: about that, to tell the truth, I've seen my own

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Speaker 1: son and grow up, and I've seen the friendships that

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Speaker 1: he's developed and how close they are. You know, I

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Speaker 1: kind of realized the challenges and moving around so much

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Speaker 1: gring and I look back and I see some people

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Speaker 1: now that I'm close with who have friendships from kindergarten

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Speaker 1: or beyond, and I'm jealous about looks amazing to be

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Speaker 1: able to have that, And I think that's something you

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Speaker 1: don't get, you know, when you're in a family that

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Speaker 1: moves every four years, and relationships or something that probably

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Speaker 1: the most important thing in your life, and to be

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Speaker 1: able to maintain and sustain those It's something I've worked

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Speaker 1: on a harder at in the last fifteen years of

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Speaker 1: my life than I did before. What kind of kid

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Speaker 1: were you? How did you define yourself and what was

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Speaker 1: your own self image? I don't think I any kind

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Speaker 1: of a weirdness to try and define myself. I think

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Speaker 1: I was trying to get from point at a point

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Speaker 1: the most of the time to my childhood. You know,

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Speaker 1: part of the challenge moving out of different schools and

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Speaker 1: being different, you know, moving to California from Alaska, I

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Speaker 1: remember kids walking to me and you know, deep live

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Speaker 1: in a very, very different and I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: struggling with being different was the real thing. And then

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Speaker 1: you know, my parents believe along in classical music, and

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Speaker 1: I had to pick up traditional instrument and then end

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Speaker 1: up in the jazz band. And I assure you, being

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Speaker 1: in the marching band in California, wearing a buttoned coat

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Speaker 1: and top hat and leading the band out onto the

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Speaker 1: football field was no cooler then than it is today.

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Speaker 1: Probably I was sponsors and academic and you know, probably

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Speaker 1: a very awkward teenager, which is amazing. Now I see

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Speaker 1: my son in the same age group. You just joined

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Speaker 1: high school this year and he plays his guitar and

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Speaker 1: it's in this rock band program where they had to

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Speaker 1: play two hours a day with some amazing musicians and teachers,

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Speaker 1: and his first day of school, I was ten times

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Speaker 1: more scared for him than he was. And I'm realizing

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Speaker 1: he has so many more tools than I had at

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Speaker 1: the time, and you know, ultimately it's just loving high

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Speaker 1: school and it's wonderful to see him out slightly different

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Speaker 1: experience than I had. That's amazing. I heard a story

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Speaker 1: about you as an early entrepreneur. I heard that you

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Speaker 1: had one business where you picked up reptiles and sold

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Speaker 1: them to kids at school. Yeah. I've always been under

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Speaker 1: the salesperson. I like having a little bit of money

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Speaker 1: in my pocket with it outside of Sacramento, and there

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Speaker 1: was a time in the bacon field between us and school,

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Speaker 1: and obviously see lizards all over the place on the

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Speaker 1: way on the way to school, and so I started

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Speaker 1: to them, I doing little shoe box and then sell

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Speaker 1: them in school until I got in troubled for selling

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Speaker 1: lizards at school, and then I would stop that. In

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Speaker 1: oh which case, at that point, I think Costco had

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Speaker 1: just started coming out and they talked to my dad

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Speaker 1: who buying those hundred packs of fitsy pops, And I

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Speaker 1: started breaking down hundred packs and selling to the pops

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Speaker 1: at school next. So it's kind of a catch me.

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Speaker 1: If you can't situation with the administration of the school,

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Speaker 1: what lessons from that child do you still use today?

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Speaker 1: I think the importance of family. I think the importance

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Speaker 1: of sitting down together. My dad actually started a computer

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Speaker 1: technology company in the late nineties and we started his

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Speaker 1: own copy've never gone before in the Air Force. Retired

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Speaker 1: twenty seven years there. The courage took him to start

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Speaker 1: his own company. It's still something like, you know, respect deeply,

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Speaker 1: but the transition from family sitting down and dinner every

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Speaker 1: night to my dad working until midnight or wanting it

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Speaker 1: was profound and thinking about, you know, my own life

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Speaker 1: now and I'm traveling so much for work, and how

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Speaker 1: I tried to stay connected to my son and my family,

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Speaker 1: you know, as my parents get older, and how you

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Speaker 1: prioritize those types of things that you're gonna be there

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Speaker 1: for each other. And you can get really tied up

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Speaker 1: and work or making money or promotion or even just

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Speaker 1: great ideas, but ultimately coming back to the family and

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Speaker 1: relationships and making sure that you know that's not strong.

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Speaker 1: Nothing else in your life is going to be strong.

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Speaker 1: You took a gap here between high school and college.

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Speaker 1: You went on do you see San Diego? You decided

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Speaker 1: you did not want to be a doctor, you did

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Speaker 1: not want to be a lawyer. Who was there any

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Speaker 1: guiding light that that made college exciting for you? I

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Speaker 1: grew up a lot in college. When I got to college,

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Speaker 1: I really just realized I like learning a lot collect economics,

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Speaker 1: about local science, aspects of biology and science just really

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Speaker 1: became very comfortable with myself, and you know, that allowed

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Speaker 1: me to start thinking about things that you know, I

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Speaker 1: hadn't really done a spouse to people before. I knew

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Speaker 1: about dad being a military and my mom school teacher,

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Speaker 1: and had a lot of exposure to the business world

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Speaker 1: and what was happening, and certainly the booming opportunities of

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Speaker 1: the Internet, oology and what that was bringing, and to

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Speaker 1: meet professors who would talk about those types of things

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Speaker 1: and how corporations were structured, and you know, it's just

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Speaker 1: really an amazing time in my life. After school, you

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Speaker 1: went to Japan taught English. What lessons did you pick

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Speaker 1: up from that that that are still with you today? Empathy?

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Speaker 1: I mean I applied to the Japanese English Teaching Programs

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Speaker 1: JET programs, what they call it pretty competitive program that

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Speaker 1: the Japanese government puts out over for a year or

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Speaker 1: two years. I want to fully pay program where they

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Speaker 1: put you up in housing and they kind of see

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Speaker 1: these English teachers all through the country of Japan to

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Speaker 1: really just teach. In my case of well middle school kids.

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Speaker 1: I ended up up in the north place called Yonazawa,

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Speaker 1: which is about a hundred thousand people. I was one

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Speaker 1: of three English speakers in town. I lived in one

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Speaker 1: of the thatched roof places. It was incredibly difficult to

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Speaker 1: get around. An amount of kindness that I was shown,

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Speaker 1: and the amount of people that would as I was lost,

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Speaker 1: not just point me in the direction, but walk me there.

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Speaker 1: I think about it when I see tourists all the

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Speaker 1: time now, whether it's you know, anywhere I'm at in

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Speaker 1: the world, but New York or San Francisco. You know

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Speaker 1: that just that a little bit of after trying to

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Speaker 1: help somebody feel like you're looking out for and that

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Speaker 1: you know you care and that you want them to

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Speaker 1: have good experience when they're in your country doing math

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Speaker 1: and magic. I talked to a lot of people, and

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Speaker 1: there's always something in the research that goes, wow, that's unexpected.

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Speaker 1: And the unexpected in your case was you began your

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Speaker 1: career ge Capital, and knowing you and thinking about you

407
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Speaker 1: at G Capital seems so out of place. Tell us

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Speaker 1: how you wound up there and what that was in

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Speaker 1: terms of the stage of your career building. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: I came back. My dad at the time, like I said,

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Speaker 1: he started a computer networking company and they's sold in

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Speaker 1: a lot of computers and technology to corporations and offices

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Speaker 1: and things like that. He knew someone Compact. They introduced

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Speaker 1: me to the general manager in San Francisco. I was

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Speaker 1: sleeping on my college roomates floor trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: what kind of job I was gonna get when I

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Speaker 1: came back. They have Capital I T Solutions and they

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Speaker 1: were a big computer and services reseller, and so I

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Speaker 1: went in, got a job. There's customer service, and I

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Speaker 1: rode the Jade church down every morning and six an't

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Speaker 1: a suit and time and got to know the technology

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Speaker 1: side of the business. And then after about a year

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Speaker 1: they launched a big services group, and the services group

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Speaker 1: sort of the first thing was accountable or anything remotely

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Speaker 1: you know, to Internet. And that's when things were just starting.

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Speaker 1: It's one of those weird things that happened to Levi.

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Speaker 1: Strouss company went into a review to outsource all their

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Speaker 1: services and we're going to their restructuring and I got

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Speaker 1: to know the guy there, and g had just launched

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Speaker 1: the service, and you know, we're probably not particularly prepaired

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Speaker 1: to take on anything of Levi size. And I sold

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Speaker 1: this account for thirty seats across the United States and

433
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,680
Speaker 1: started working out of Levi for the next two years.

434
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,560
Speaker 1: And you know, at the time, then after I really

435
00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:57,439
Speaker 1: started following low the coding and the Internet, that a

436
00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 1: company called us Web, somebody from company went over there

437
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 1: and come over and look at these guys. I mean,

438
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,400
Speaker 1: I couldn't believe it. Bob, I walked Hadler, there's free

439
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 1: coffee there's free food you guys are giving away. Harley

440
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 1: Davidsons during the Christmas party, like, what is happening here

441
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,720
Speaker 1: that I'm not a part of? And I went over

442
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,199
Speaker 1: there is a strategy account leg and that kind of

443
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 1: kicked off the next fifteen years of my career. You

444
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:27,119
Speaker 1: survived the dot com bust, You went through various iterations

445
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,439
Speaker 1: of the company until it became Razor Fish and was

446
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:34,680
Speaker 1: eventually acquired by publicists. What surprised you most about how

447
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 1: digital laboratizing evolved? I mean you were there really at

448
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,159
Speaker 1: is practically the beginning. How did the reality contrast with

449
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,920
Speaker 1: your early view? I mean it's not all from Silicon Valley,

450
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 1: just the boom the bus stories when they continue to repeat,

451
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 1: when you see how things can get so big so

452
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 1: quick and then gets so small so quick. I'll never forget.

453
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,880
Speaker 1: One of the iterations of the name was March First

454
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 1: after Us, which was kind of the biggest internet consultancy

455
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,159
Speaker 1: at the time. Bob or Ours remember as we were

456
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:03,880
Speaker 1: going through it, I think Francisco Partners are just put

457
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:05,440
Speaker 1: in a hundred and fifty million dollars to keep the

458
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 1: company afloat. And I saw Bob in the hallway and

459
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 1: said the boy the way you know just about this house,

460
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,400
Speaker 1: like should I be concerned? It's like everybody else seems

461
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,679
Speaker 1: to be concerned. And he goes, don't worry, Christian ships,

462
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 1: this big don't go down. Well there forget that quote.

463
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 1: And two days later we filed for bankruptcy and people's

464
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: paychecks started pat saying there were people who were having babies,

465
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 1: and it turns out that Bob had stopped paying the

466
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 1: premiums on our health insurance, so they were getting bills

467
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 1: handed to them for twenty plus thousand dollars thinking the

468
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 1: insurance when the in fact didn't have insurance. Disciples that

469
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 1: we've gone through are just really tremendous, and the uncertainty

470
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 1: that you deal with in some of those moments are

471
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 1: something else could really comfortable with. I mean, I'm not

472
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 1: kidding when I said, remember we used to take our

473
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: paychecks and we'd go on those check cashing places to

474
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 1: see if we could get them cashed, to see where

475
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,200
Speaker 1: you could get paid during those soume periods. I think

476
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 1: fast forwarding today's workplace, you know, it's evolved so much.

477
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 1: I think the role of government has changed so much.

478
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 1: Sadly for the worst. I mean, people have really started

479
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 1: looking at their companies is one of the most stable

480
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 1: things in their lives and the responsibilities that come without.

481
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,360
Speaker 1: When we think about equality, opportunity, the way we treat

482
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: each other, and the way we think about values and

483
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,119
Speaker 1: the way we hold each other accountable, is accountable and

484
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 1: I contrast, that's when I started run, really was just

485
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 1: talking my paycheck would cash. And it's a whole different

486
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: world right now. I'm going to jump into it a

487
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 1: little bit. Let's start with the first and which is

488
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 1: the dot com bust, the beginning of the century, the

489
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 1: big recession of O E O nine. You live through

490
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 1: both of them, the pandemic, business downturn, and now we

491
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: are in a period of some uncertainty. How do the

492
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: learnings from those three help us navigate this and what

493
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 1: do you see as a result of that. I still

494
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: believe my primary job is to provide employment for our

495
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 1: people in a sense of safety and security, so that

496
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 1: they can make plans for their lives with mind. I

497
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: think that what we have to do is make sure

498
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 1: that we plan for the uncertainty. Who no one knows

499
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 1: what's really coming. I don't know if China's going to

500
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 1: open backed up next year. We have to make sure

501
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 1: that we're listening to our clients and well provide them

502
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 1: the flexibility that they need. And ultimately, you know, I

503
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: have to predict the future just slightly better than everybody

504
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,199
Speaker 1: else so that I can do the right things for

505
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 1: employees and our clients. Will say, every one of those downturns,

506
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 1: you don't realize when you're coming out of it. It

507
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: gets better much more slowly than it gets worse. And

508
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,719
Speaker 1: I think that one day you wake up and you realize, well,

509
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 1: actually everything's okay. You rise up out of challenging times

510
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: kind of inch by inch. I don't find it ever

511
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: happens overnight. And I think just making sure that you know,

512
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: you investment in things during these time periods that are

513
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 1: really important to you. Maybe you postpone a couple of

514
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: things that are nice to have, and you communicate. You know,

515
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 1: I've been very front of our employees about it. Would

516
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,360
Speaker 1: you be really careful right now? It's not the time

517
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: to make big bets. Let's stay close to our clients.

518
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 1: Let to make sure we understand what's happening. You know,

519
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 1: let's forecast a little more often than we used to

520
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 1: they're really trying to ensure you know what's coming. You

521
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,479
Speaker 1: are a strong advocate of diversity, how do you make

522
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: it a priority and make inclusion a part of your

523
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 1: culture and operations? And what are the hurdles to making

524
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: all of our not just your company, our senior management

525
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: ranks in American business reflect the diversity of the communities

526
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: we serve. Well, would you never do enough? That's simple.

527
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 1: Truth is you have to believe in diversity. You know,

528
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 1: it's not a target or goal. You know, the best

529
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 1: leaders they're building really diverse and inclusive teams are those

530
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 1: that understand ever seeing inclusion is good for you and

531
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 1: never see it comes from a lot of different formats.

532
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: I mean people who have come from different backgrounds, who

533
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: weren't growing on Madison Avenue, whose parents didn't work in

534
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: the industry. Those interesting people to bring into the business.

535
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: People are experiencing the way marketing and advertising works around

536
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: the world right now, and you bring them in, you

537
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: put them in leadership positions, and you start having different conversations.

538
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the media for a minute. You probably

539
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 1: are the biggest supporter of media with your add dollars,

540
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: and it's changed enormously we've seen the biggest TV network

541
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 1: today has dropped below reach for the month. I'm in

542
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 1: the audio sector here we are on a podcast the

543
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: Death of Peace and Quiet, meaning people are filling up

544
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: all those open spots now with audio, radio, playlist, podcasting

545
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 1: or exploding. But that has shifted in the mix. I

546
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 1: mean when I got into the business, TV was the

547
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: big reach medium radio was second, and newspapers and magazines

548
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: have big reach. How do you change your outlook on media?

549
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 1: You know, you were there when people thought digital meant nothing,

550
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: and now here it's number one in terms of media choices.

551
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: How do you change those allocations? How do you get

552
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: people to constantly watch and move things. One of the

553
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: things that I'm most excited about running Group down is

554
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: that you know, we are the biggest and you know,

555
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: when I looked at about that, man, I didn't want

556
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: to about this known as big, big is not always good,

557
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 1: as we know, so you know when I largest opportunity

558
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: about our size is to actually force the industry to

559
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 1: take responsibility and to actually be better than we are.

560
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: And we came out with a mission statement about making

561
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 1: advertising we're better for people around the world, and I

562
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,439
Speaker 1: think that is the opportunity for media right now. I

563
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 1: think we can make it less interus of I think

564
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: we can be more respectful and how we run personalization.

565
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:28,719
Speaker 1: I think we have to really look at ethical use

566
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: of data. We've got to look at the platforms when

567
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,400
Speaker 1: the best in and ultimately we talk about shifting dollars,

568
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's up to us to represent

569
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: the real cost of media to our clients. It's not

570
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: just a reach and frequency the equestion, right, you gotta

571
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: look at what is the management's commitment to d E

572
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: and I what is our commitment to responsible journalism? And

573
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: how do we score all these types of things in

574
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: a way that we can tell a client, Okay, this

575
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: is what you say that you care about these things,

576
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: then this is the real score. It's you know, their

577
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: prices of twelve, but they actually cost sixteen, right Or

578
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: on the flip side, hey, here's a company that deeply

579
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: cares about these types of things and they're charging a

580
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: little more for that, but you're getting something that really

581
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: represents who your company values are. Now you can kind

582
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: of walk the walk. And so in terms of shifting dynamics,

583
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: whether digital or mobile or audio, I mean obviously we're

584
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: talking on a podcast today. There's always new formats coming

585
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: and going, and it's up to us to help our

586
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 1: clients kind of guide that a complicated ecosystem, and I

587
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 1: think ultimately, you know, we've shown the willingness to move

588
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: dollars away from those that won't take responsibility for their

589
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: actions in the world and to reward independent journalism or

590
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: other partners, and they do stuff up and take that responsibility.

591
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: If you could go back in time and give your

592
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: twenty one year old self some advice, what would that

593
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 1: advice be. I listened to your pen Horror. It's podcast.

594
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: Take my advice. It is somewhat similar. I wish I're

595
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: worried less so worried about everything. I do feel like

596
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: worrying about all the small things along the way has

597
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: over the taxed me in some capacity, and the things

598
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: that way working out and maintaining positivity, continuing to learn,

599
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: continue to be curious, and putting yourself around interesting people

600
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: and opportunities. It's a good formula for things to kind of,

601
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 1: let's say, take care of themselves, but good things generally happen.

602
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: How do you deal with that in your work today?

603
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: How do you encourage people to be aware but not

604
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: to let it get into worry or do you think

605
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: worry is a positive attribute for them? I think an

606
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: aspect of worrying is good. I mean healthy paranoia. Competitors

607
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: would love to have our clients most of the time irrational.

608
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: Sometimes you're irrational, and you know, what does that look like?

609
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: And how do we defend our our business and how

610
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: we make sure our clients are growing and feel appreciated.

611
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 1: That's always a fear, you know. I think we're minding

612
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: people about what we've come through in the last three

613
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: years and the strength and the resilience in the business

614
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: and our global leadership and the relations ships we have

615
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: a clients and foundations and technology and are incredible partnerships

616
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: and media and I trust them all come together again

617
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: to figure things out when the next top time gets

618
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: to us. We in each episode by giving a shout

619
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: out to our influences. This podcast is about both sides,

620
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: about those who see the world with numbers, analytics, and data,

621
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: the math side, and about those who have the magic,

622
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: the creativity, intuition, showmanship. As you think about it, who

623
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: gets the shout out for the math side and who

624
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: gets the shout out for the magic side. Well, I

625
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: started saying, I believe the tour intrinsically intertwined. Any great

626
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: artist has a good basis and math, And if you

627
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: look at great musicians, as you know, are generally pretty

628
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: good at math. But in terms of the two, you

629
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: know Andrew Shaver, who was one of the founders of Essence,

630
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 1: It is one of the sharpest minds that I've ever met.

631
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 1: He's gone on he's fighting climate change at at a

632
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: company called Counteract now or they're looking at carbon removal

633
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: and investing in small companies there. But Andrew was one

634
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: sort of taught me when we come to the problem,

635
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: let's see if software can do it first. Let's see

636
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: if we can automate something first, Let's build something first.

637
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: And just an incredibly brilliant guy, and I have every

638
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: confidence in the world that he'll be making a positive

639
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: change on our climate in the coming years. In terms

640
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: of the creatives, I have to give a shout out

641
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: to Lorraine to at Google for many, many reasons, but

642
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: not the least of which she's been a steadfast supporter

643
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: of of me and Essence and our growth with them

644
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 1: as their primary marketing partner over the years. But also

645
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: someone who always makes time for creativity, always talks about

646
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: the bigger ideas, always pushes for getting out of the

647
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: optimization loop that can just drive you into micro conversations.

648
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 1: And it's always reminded me about you know, hey, we

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Speaker 1: want to be famous, we want to be good, we

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Speaker 1: want to push for better things in the world. And

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Speaker 1: lives it and talks it and delivers it and continue

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Speaker 1: to believe they'll push for for positive impact in the world.

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Speaker 1: And I think that Lorraine is a great voice for that,

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Speaker 1: and it does it in a very creative, elegant and

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Speaker 1: amazing way. You been a pioneer in digital advertising marketing.

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Speaker 1: Your proven c HEO can can navigate and even harness

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Speaker 1: change and our evolving a company, and I would argue

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Speaker 1: in an industry at enormous scale. Christian, thanks for sharing

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Speaker 1: your valuable lessons and insights today. Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Here are a few things I picked up in my

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Speaker 1: conversation with Christian. One take risks, as Christian says, you

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Speaker 1: don't want to be the status quote. You want to

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Speaker 1: be the change maker. Even if the path feels uncertain,

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Speaker 1: keep pushing to create something new, to trust and positive intent,

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Speaker 1: set high standards and no matter what happens, assume that

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Speaker 1: your team wants to do their best. This assumption builds

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Speaker 1: trust among colleagues and strengthens corporate culture. Three Plan for

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Speaker 1: uncertain Christians or Vibe the dot com bust and came

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Speaker 1: out the other side as a stronger leader. He's realized

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Speaker 1: that uncertainty is inevitable, so it's important to pay attention

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Speaker 1: to the world around you and lean into your strengths

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Speaker 1: during challenges. I'm Bob Pittman, Thanks for listening. That's it

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Speaker 1: for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to Math

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Speaker 1: and Magic, a production of I Heart Radio Show is

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Speaker 1: hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Susan Ward for

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Speaker 1: booking and wrangling our wonderful talent, which is no small feel.

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Speaker 1: Our editors are Derek Clements and Emily Mariott, our producer,

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Speaker 1: Morgan Leavoy, our executive producer Nicky Eator and of course

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Speaker 1: Gayle Raoul, Eric Angel Noel and everyone who helped bring

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Speaker 1: this show to your ears. Until next time,