Speaker 1: Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello friends,
Speaker 1: Today we are joined by someone that I admire so much,
Speaker 1: that I have cherished for such a long time, and
Speaker 1: who I think is hands down one of the coolest
Speaker 1: human beings that I know. Today's guest on Work in
Speaker 1: Progress is none other than Lena Waithe. You know her
Speaker 1: as an Emmy winning writer, producer, actor, and the founder
Speaker 1: of Hellman Grad. She is known for Master of None,
Speaker 1: The Shy Queen, and Slim. Lena's film credits, TV credits,
Speaker 1: They just go on and on and on, from winning
Speaker 1: awards at Sundance to again being Emmy nominated for documentaries,
Speaker 1: Lina did not come to play. She is an incredible
Speaker 1: creator in every single sense of the word, which is
Speaker 1: probably why she was named one of Time magazines one
Speaker 1: hundred most influential people all the way back in twenty eighteen.
Speaker 1: She was included on Fast Companies Queer fifty lists in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two. Lena just keeps
Speaker 1: on winning. Born in Chicago, Illinois, Lena always knew that
Speaker 1: she wanted to be a television writer and was lucky
Speaker 1: enough to be supported by her family and along the
Speaker 1: way discovered that she happens to be a fantastic actor too.
Speaker 1: I cannot wait to talk to her about her journey,
Speaker 1: her creativity in every single vertical that it touches, and
Speaker 1: the ways that she thinks about storytelling and her latest project,
Speaker 1: her brand new podcast, Legacy Talk with Lena Waithe, which
Speaker 1: is a love letter to black women in entertainment. She
Speaker 1: sits down with incredible icons and trailblazers to discuss their
Speaker 1: creative process, their journey, and how they became the women
Speaker 1: and leaders and artists that they are today. Legacy Talk
Speaker 1: really is more than just a series of interviews. It's
Speaker 1: a documentation of the stories and experiences of women who
Speaker 1: have shifted narratives, broken barriers, and inspired a generation. I
Speaker 1: am not surprised that Lena is tackling this latest vertical
Speaker 1: with the same curiosity and excellence that she brings to
Speaker 1: every single project. Let's dive in with Lena Waithe. Lena,
Speaker 1: I'm so happy that you're here today.
Speaker 2: I'm so happy I'm doing this is like my first
Speaker 2: thing of the day.
Speaker 1: It is I love that, and you know, I just
Speaker 1: love the that of you. I was trying to tell
Speaker 1: my producers today. When we jumped on, they were like,
Speaker 1: how do you guys know each other?
Speaker 2: And I was like, I, Michelle Obama is where we met?
Speaker 1: Is that where we met for the first time.
Speaker 2: I think that's where we met. Oh god, social before that,
Speaker 2: But in terms of meeting, I think was there. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I just remember when like we started getting in the dms,
Speaker 1: like chatting about things, and I was like, wait a second.
Speaker 1: I really admire this woman as a storyteller, and I
Speaker 1: also think I love who she is as a person,
Speaker 1: Like are we gonna be friends? And here we are
Speaker 1: and I love it.
Speaker 2: And also we have a great mutual for an Alex Edelman,
Speaker 2: like the homie.
Speaker 1: The brother, the best, just the yummiest little bro in
Speaker 1: the world.
Speaker 2: Ever.
Speaker 1: Yes, I was just like, Okay, So something I find
Speaker 1: really fascinating about you because we know a lot of
Speaker 1: people that are multi hyphenits, but you are like you
Speaker 1: are like a multi hyphen in like an algebra problem
Speaker 1: like that you just keep stacking pieces of the equation.
Speaker 1: And when I put my you know, interviewer hat on
Speaker 1: and started to dig into things about your life, I
Speaker 1: didn't know. I had no idea that you always knew
Speaker 1: you wanted to be a writer, like since you were
Speaker 1: at all? And I ask a lot of the folks
Speaker 1: who come on the show because people know you as
Speaker 1: you know, public figure or all the things you are.
Speaker 1: I always like to see if you could meet your
Speaker 1: nine year old self, if you would see who you
Speaker 1: are today in that child. And I'm like, well, obviously
Speaker 1: you did, because you always knew you wanted to be
Speaker 1: a writer. So like, can you tell me where your
Speaker 1: interests and your love of storytelling started? Do you have
Speaker 1: a moment where you knew or was it always there?
Speaker 2: I mean, I think I grew up watching a lot
Speaker 2: of TV as a kid. Being in the nineties, it
Speaker 2: was sort of like a Heyday for TV. I think
Speaker 2: from young people you know what to be tgif you know,
Speaker 2: Full House, Family Matters, step by Step, Charles in Charge,
Speaker 2: Small Wonder Out, Empty Nest, you know. And then but
Speaker 2: also like there were so many great shows with all
Speaker 2: black casts, like Obviously A Different World, which was one
Speaker 2: of the biggest influences on me and the Cosby show.
Speaker 2: I mentioned Family Matters, Fresh Prince of bel Air was
Speaker 2: really Dopehood, which was actually a show that Robert townsended,
Speaker 2: which is sort of like his Cosby show, and so
Speaker 2: there were just Wayne's brothers. I remember it was a
Speaker 2: really cool show. I at least loved watching The Living
Speaker 2: Color coming up. So there was just a shmortgage board
Speaker 2: of like TV shows and entertainment with really amazing talent.
Speaker 2: And I was really inspired and influenced by the kind
Speaker 2: of storytelling that was happening. I remember Demolition Man, like
Speaker 2: you know, we always say before Black Panther, it was
Speaker 2: a little demolish Man, which Robert Townsend did with the
Speaker 2: blonde hair and like the superheroes in their own neighborhood
Speaker 2: trying to save their neighborhood from evil doers. And we
Speaker 2: have had all this stuff, and I think I just
Speaker 2: kind of saw that and thought that that was normal
Speaker 2: and there was nothing odd about that. And so but
Speaker 2: I also grew up watching Oprah win for every Day,
Speaker 2: and like you know, and after you know, it's like
Speaker 2: being in Chicago knowing that's where she filmed the show
Speaker 2: was yet really a source of pride for us, and
Speaker 2: I just think it was a really fruitful time and
Speaker 2: and for me to be a kid growing up at
Speaker 2: my grandmother's house with a single mom, you know, older sister,
Speaker 2: I you know, we were last ki kids, so we
Speaker 2: would come home and watch television and cook for ourselves
Speaker 2: and wait for our parents to get home from work.
Speaker 2: And that was actually the time where I think we
Speaker 2: were becoming ourselves. Also watching music videos a ton like
Speaker 2: being people watching the box, you know what, you could
Speaker 2: call and request the music video. You know, that was
Speaker 2: sort of our TikTok and Instagram and Facebook. We really were.
Speaker 2: It was very analog. I remember I could walk to
Speaker 2: the Blockbuster, you know, and I ended up working there
Speaker 2: and renting movies. And that's how I remember renting Hoop
Speaker 2: Dreams and you know, seeing parents is burning like on
Speaker 2: vhs and discovering these things and these treasure trows of
Speaker 2: footage and documentation of stories and people and these character
Speaker 2: even watching documentaries thinking about who dreams like is like
Speaker 2: a real person, But he felt like like a character,
Speaker 2: like somebody I knew, being from Chicago, trying to play basketball,
Speaker 2: trying to make his family proud. These are just things
Speaker 2: that I kind of saw and could relate to, it,
Speaker 2: could understand, And I think that was really what the
Speaker 2: Seeds were playing it in terms of wanting to tell
Speaker 2: stories that felt vulnerable and felt honest.
Speaker 1: Hmm. I love that. Yeah, you know you're making me
Speaker 1: realize too that we Yeah, I mean we grew up
Speaker 1: in this moment where not to say everything was like
Speaker 1: perfect or fixed, but where art was growing in such
Speaker 1: a way, these messages of these stories were growing in
Speaker 1: all of these beautiful ways. More and more people were
Speaker 1: getting to be represented. We're getting to be on TV.
Speaker 1: Like I I studied journalism in college because of Oprah.
Speaker 2: Wow, you know, like I didn't know that.
Speaker 1: I you will love this. When I was a kid,
Speaker 1: it would take just long enough for me to get
Speaker 1: home from school, and like when the years that I
Speaker 1: was like eight nine, my mom was picking me up
Speaker 1: at that time, and I sat her down and I
Speaker 1: was like, Mom, nothing happens in the last period anyway,
Speaker 1: And if you pick me up after school ends, I
Speaker 1: get home at three fifteen, and I missed the first
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes of Oprah, and I learned way more from
Speaker 1: Oprah than I learned at the end of the day
Speaker 1: at school. So I think you should pick me up
Speaker 1: at two forty five. And my mom was like, first
Speaker 1: of all, are you going to be a lawyer? Who
Speaker 1: do you think you are? And I'm not negotiating with
Speaker 1: my young child to leave school early so you can
Speaker 1: come home to watch Oprah.
Speaker 2: And I was like, she's my class though, and look
Speaker 2: at your guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's like, I don't know, I think about that,
Speaker 1: and I think we were really we were so lucky
Speaker 1: to have her as women that are passionate about the
Speaker 1: world around us, as storytellers, and we were really lucky
Speaker 1: to have all these shows and all these creators that
Speaker 1: you're referencing. We I worry for today's kids, like anything
Speaker 1: that isn't you know, traditional, I'll do the air quotes
Speaker 1: meaning like tip represented by power is suddenly like weaponized
Speaker 1: as political and I'm like, maybe it was actually just
Speaker 1: dope when everybody got to be on TV, like when
Speaker 1: we just told all kinds of different stories about all
Speaker 1: kinds of different people. And the nineties really were this
Speaker 1: like blossoming moment for a lot of that.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean when you look back at like, you know,
Speaker 2: CNN does like a study about the decades and the
Speaker 2: nineties one is super obviously fascinating because that was my nostalgia.
Speaker 2: But it's true, it was. It was very a fruitful time,
Speaker 2: you know, and we're taking risks and music was really dope,
Speaker 2: you know, and TV and and and I think but
Speaker 2: also I think the Oprah Winfrey Show was something that wow, boy,
Speaker 2: did we take that for granted? I think at the time,
Speaker 2: just in terms of seeing a black woman on television
Speaker 2: being curious and being empathetic and being open to learning something.
Speaker 2: You know, she remember the that was like the light
Speaker 2: bulb moment. That's what it became, you know, famous, you
Speaker 2: know on the show, just the idea of a light
Speaker 2: bulb going off above. Yes, oh, I've never thought of
Speaker 2: it that way before. That's such an interesting and powerful
Speaker 2: thing to say. I'm telling shem Oprah, who we would
Speaker 2: think knows all she was as expressing the people. Even
Speaker 2: though you think, you know, I'm the leader of the pack,
Speaker 2: I'm still learning things with you. You know, I'm still
Speaker 2: growing with you.
Speaker 1: Yes, and to make learning something beautiful and something to
Speaker 1: aspire to.
Speaker 2: Book club like yeah, like her gathering people to talk
Speaker 2: about a book and with the author. I remember like
Speaker 2: she had Tony Morrison sent at the table with all
Speaker 2: these women and like them talking about her book and
Speaker 2: her literature and asking her questions. On television. You know,
Speaker 2: that was a real, a real thing and and wow,
Speaker 2: I just you know, I miss it sometimes.
Speaker 1: I do too. I wish we could go back. I
Speaker 1: ate up life class. When she was like, let me
Speaker 1: do this show. That's like the highlight reel of all
Speaker 1: my shows.
Speaker 2: I was like, give it, yeah, or masterclass or master
Speaker 2: class on own. You don't remember that Maya Angelou episode,
Speaker 2: the Dian Carrol episode, the Woopie Goldberg episode. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: I think, but I think Oprah did a master class
Speaker 2: to her, So I think she did so maybe probably
Speaker 2: just a way for us to kind of learn how
Speaker 2: these giants became who they were, but also showing you
Speaker 2: that giants started out not unlike you, you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: listen to their inner voice and walked in their purpose.
Speaker 2: I think that's the big thing Oprah was always really
Speaker 2: good about, was really sort of telling us, like, the
Speaker 2: person that you think is the smartest in the world,
Speaker 2: the most accomplishing the world, the wisest, began you know
Speaker 2: in the way that you did. You know, Yeah, the
Speaker 2: house and unsure and if they had were dealing with
Speaker 2: self doubt and not knowing and someone eventually finding their voice,
Speaker 2: and so it make sure you sit at home and go, oh, well,
Speaker 2: they can do it. You know why not?
Speaker 1: I yeah, do you feel like that's what you were
Speaker 1: gleaning in those hours that that kind of incredible time
Speaker 1: you got between me and you got home from school
Speaker 1: and you know the adults got home. Were you beginning
Speaker 1: to see, oh, any kind of insecurity or very human
Speaker 1: fear I might have? You know, we all asked that question, like, well,
Speaker 1: who am I to do this? Do you think the
Speaker 1: lesson was? These people all did it, so I'm going
Speaker 1: to try to do it? Like how did you take
Speaker 1: the leap?
Speaker 2: I mean, well, I think I wasn't thinking about it
Speaker 2: in that way at that time. I think that's what
Speaker 2: really great entertainment content, you know, media does where I
Speaker 2: think those particularly speak about the master classes that she
Speaker 2: would do in a particularly May Angelo. That one really
Speaker 2: sticks out of my head. But I think I just
Speaker 2: was taking it in. I think I was taking it
Speaker 2: in and I was very aware of who my Angelo
Speaker 2: was and continues to be in our world, even though
Speaker 2: she may not be earthside anymore. I think it was
Speaker 2: just important to hear her speak in the talk, and
Speaker 2: and I didn't even understand the weight of it then,
Speaker 2: because I think in those moments, that's not what you're doing.
Speaker 2: And I think that's why, you know, I think it's
Speaker 2: not just about images, it's about what are people saying,
Speaker 2: what's sort of being conveyed, and because it'll hit people later. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so it's important just to you know, just to take
Speaker 2: it in.
Speaker 1: Just Yeah, you were, you were having nice afternoons like vibeing,
Speaker 1: watching music videos, and now you look back and you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: I was, I was taking a master clas ta. Yeah.
Speaker 2: We saw Rosie Rosie O'donald Show two every day at
Speaker 2: three o'clock. For us, Oprah was on at nine am
Speaker 2: and then in the evening and afternoon Rosie was at
Speaker 2: the afternoon like three o'clock. Yet talk shows were a thing,
Speaker 2: like it was a it was a big deal. They
Speaker 2: still are now, but I don't know, like we used
Speaker 2: to watch like the talk shows all the time. Oh
Speaker 2: I loved them.
Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors who make the
Speaker 1: show possible. What were your early days like when you
Speaker 1: when you first moved out to LA Like, what what
Speaker 1: was the experience like trying to begin to break into
Speaker 1: the industry.
Speaker 2: Well, we had some thing called the semester in LA
Speaker 2: that Columbia College. I don't know if I think they
Speaker 2: still do it. I hope they, But yeah, where I
Speaker 2: got to spend a semester, you know, about twelve weeks,
Speaker 2: you know, in LA and maybe many people were doing it.
Speaker 2: I was sort of inspired. But the advice I got
Speaker 2: was make it your last semester, because if you go
Speaker 2: and then come back to Chica, I got like, you
Speaker 2: kind of lose some of the contacts that you made.
Speaker 2: So I took that advice and just got all my
Speaker 2: credits lined up and do what I had to do
Speaker 2: and spend my final semester in Los Angeles, which was
Speaker 2: the best advice ever because I stayed out here and
Speaker 2: then went back to that and then came back. But
Speaker 2: I didn't I didn't miss a step. And the truth
Speaker 2: is I didn't know anybody out here, you know, I
Speaker 2: didn't have any contacts, you know. I just wanted to
Speaker 2: meet people and get wanted to get to know folks
Speaker 2: and wanted to learn and grow. And that was really
Speaker 2: I think one of my strong points was that I
Speaker 2: really wanted to just meet folks to see what they
Speaker 2: were getting into and what they were doing, and if
Speaker 2: it aligned with what I was doing, maybe we should
Speaker 2: kind of link up and hang out. That's just kind
Speaker 2: of how I've always operated, and which is a different
Speaker 2: type of operator, you know, and not about what can
Speaker 2: I get from you, but rather oh, you're doing the
Speaker 2: same thing. You know, we can maybe share information and
Speaker 2: see if we can help each other. And I still
Speaker 2: rate that way. I think that's sort of how I
Speaker 2: like to move. And yeah, and the thing is is
Speaker 2: like I think LA is like any other place, you
Speaker 2: kind of find your tribe slowly but surely. And then
Speaker 2: it was important for me to also hunker down and
Speaker 2: really hone my crafts. And I think that's how the
Speaker 2: people can get lost in Los Angeles about going to things,
Speaker 2: going to events. A lot of panels were happening when
Speaker 2: I was first out here, which were amazing. They're not
Speaker 2: as prevalent now, but it was good just to go
Speaker 2: network and meet people and stuff. So that's what I
Speaker 2: was really doing. It was like networking and then eventually
Speaker 2: trying to find my voice and get finding jobs I'll
Speaker 2: find in my voice and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: And I do think the it's changed a bit now
Speaker 2: because people the world is smaller. You can kind of
Speaker 2: go online and kind of build an audience and build
Speaker 2: the following but I think what's sort of happening is
Speaker 2: there's not that time to home one's voice, and I
Speaker 2: think that's really where people are able to shine. Like
Speaker 2: Quinta has a voice, you know, Yes, you know Brian,
Speaker 2: the guy who does an English Teacher, he has a voice, yes,
Speaker 2: and it's very distinctive. And I think that, to me
Speaker 2: is what I hope people are understanding. When you're watching
Speaker 2: English Teacher, when you're watching Avid Elementary. They both happen
Speaker 2: to be shows that take place in schools and dealing
Speaker 2: with teachers, but they couldn't be more different. And really
Speaker 2: it's a great example to show folks, is like, that's
Speaker 2: what it means to be a writer. You both can
Speaker 2: do it in a similar setting, but they both can
Speaker 2: feel really different. And that's because both of those show
Speaker 2: creators who happen to be in the shows as well
Speaker 2: a multi hyphens, they have really found their voice. So
Speaker 2: that's why you know when you're watching Abit, you know
Speaker 2: when you're watching English Teacher, not just because you o
Speaker 2: they're different shows, but because the voices are so unique.
Speaker 2: And I think that's why you both of them for
Speaker 2: different reasons. And then if you put on twenties or
Speaker 2: the shy those that's specific to my voice. And so
Speaker 2: I always try to tell writers. I'm like, don't follow
Speaker 2: the marketplace, no such thing, and don't try to be
Speaker 2: don't try to hit. It's really about what is your voice?
Speaker 2: What do you have to say? Say? What is specific
Speaker 2: about you? What's a movie that only you can write?
Speaker 2: That's why I think this has kind of gone away.
Speaker 2: But there was a time where people are so afraid
Speaker 2: somebody was going to steal their idea. Yeah, wives tell
Speaker 2: about the matrix. You know, it's like I don't want
Speaker 2: my I'm like, it's impossible, Like you can take you
Speaker 2: know what I'm saying. It's like the idea, but they
Speaker 2: can't execute it the way you wult it. So you know.
Speaker 2: And also I always tell people like, if you're afraid
Speaker 2: somebody's gonna take a idea, you got to start seeing
Speaker 2: coming up with a whole bunch of more ideas. You know,
Speaker 2: it's only got one. Then I don't know. I love that.
Speaker 2: What do you think.
Speaker 1: From this vantage point, because like, there's a lot of life,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of work. When you talk about finding
Speaker 1: your voice. If a young artist is listening to this
Speaker 1: and it's like but how do I do that? Like
Speaker 1: from here? How how do you think you would say
Speaker 1: to somebody, this would be my my small slice of
Speaker 1: a roadmap for you. How do you encourage people because
Speaker 1: you're such a great mentor as the writer and producer
Speaker 1: that you are. I wonder do you have advice you
Speaker 1: like to give people on that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I try to tell people to watch a bunch
Speaker 2: of TV. Watch you know, classic movies. Yeah, that's really important.
Speaker 2: I think I always getting nervous when someone tells me
Speaker 2: they want to write for TV, but don't watch it.
Speaker 2: You'd be surprised people like the show. Have you seen this? No?
Speaker 2: I haven't seen that. You haven't seen it. And it's
Speaker 2: always sort of like, it's important to know what's working. Yeah,
Speaker 2: important to know what's good. I like that, and know
Speaker 2: what you don't like if you watch the shows. I
Speaker 2: don't like this show? Why not? Why does it? Boy you?
Speaker 2: Why doesn't I hold your attention? You know? And then
Speaker 2: like I really love this show. Why do you love
Speaker 2: the show? Like the characters? What do you like about
Speaker 2: the characters?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Are coming back to it every week. And so the
Speaker 2: thing is is like, if you want to create a
Speaker 2: show that people love good to know what shows are
Speaker 2: out there that people are loving and why and reading
Speaker 2: scripts and you know, talking to writers you know that
Speaker 2: maybe have written something that you like. There's a sort
Speaker 2: of idea that I can do it all by myself
Speaker 2: or I don't need somebody else to give me feedback,
Speaker 2: or I don't mean like I still give people want
Speaker 2: my stuff to read and give me feedback and people
Speaker 2: I respect people that I appreciate their opinion, and I
Speaker 2: get notes and I incorporate that and the work gets better.
Speaker 2: And so I think that's something that people don't often see.
Speaker 2: It is sort of think, oh, I just sit down
Speaker 2: and write something and give it to something. It's like
Speaker 2: now it goes through a bunch of stages of you know,
Speaker 2: getting feedback, doing a table read, doing another past, getting
Speaker 2: feedback again, and then reading it again and trying it
Speaker 2: again and giving it to someone. And so I think
Speaker 2: there's this desire this quick, you know, microwave, nuke and
Speaker 2: let's go, and it's just no, I mean, I just
Speaker 2: I have a you know, I sit down with Debbie
Speaker 2: Allen for the finale of Legacy, talk with Mena Waite,
Speaker 2: and I'm not like giving away anything too much. But
Speaker 2: I asked her, I said, how long did it take
Speaker 2: you to get Almostade made? How long? She was like
Speaker 2: eighteen years, No, eighteen years.
Speaker 1: I thought, I was like, you telling this story means
Speaker 1: she's going to say like ten years, eighteen years.
Speaker 2: Eighteen years and we and I told her, I said,
Speaker 2: my school went on a field trip to go see
Speaker 2: Almistid Wow and obviously directed by the Gracia the spiel Work,
Speaker 2: who obviously I worked, put me in my first feature,
Speaker 2: Ready to Play one.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But that is something people should understand, is that, like
Speaker 2: some things that are really good, and sometimes it takes
Speaker 2: a while, and sometimes something comes and it's like it's
Speaker 2: pretty quick, like it happens you're like, oh man, okay,
Speaker 2: we get this. But I just really want people to
Speaker 2: understand that anything worth getting made and getting done and
Speaker 2: worth having, often times it's gonna take a be it's
Speaker 2: gonna take a while, it's gonna take patience, it's gonna
Speaker 2: take you know, it ain't gonna be the first ride.
Speaker 2: It's gonna be the thousand. You know, you're still needling
Speaker 2: and you're still trying to make it right. And that's
Speaker 2: what it is to be a creative. That's what it
Speaker 2: is to be a writer. Just because it's never done.
Speaker 2: You know, you can always make it better, you can
Speaker 2: always make it stronger. And also now mind you as me,
Speaker 2: every note you get is right for you, you know.
Speaker 2: But I think that's what knowing your voice is that
Speaker 2: knowing you're not saying no because you don't want to
Speaker 2: do the work or because you're afraid to go in
Speaker 2: and see. But maybe if you say no because you
Speaker 2: know what, like, that's not the story I'm telling. I
Speaker 2: get the note, but that's not the story I'm telling.
Speaker 2: If I do that something else, you know, it's like,
Speaker 2: but that note enhances the story I'm telling and makes
Speaker 2: the story I'm telling even stronger and clearer. So I
Speaker 2: appreciate that. And that's that's the big thing too. It
Speaker 2: just takes you know, it just takes time to learn
Speaker 2: you know, what notes make sense of what notes don't.
Speaker 2: But the truth is, because you got to leave your
Speaker 2: ego at the door, you know. In a while people,
Speaker 2: Me and Gina talked about this on episode Legacy Talk.
Speaker 2: She's like, a lot of people give me their material
Speaker 2: because they want me to tell them it's great. And
Speaker 2: she was like, when I have to get from my material.
Speaker 2: She's like, you wanted me just to tell you the truth? Yes,
Speaker 2: And she was like, and I did, and you came
Speaker 2: back with the new draft and she was like, it's
Speaker 2: so rare for people to do that. And I was surprised.
Speaker 2: I say it is. She's like, oh yeah, you'll get
Speaker 2: somebody down from them again, and so oh yeah, this
Speaker 2: happened to me too, Like you know, so that's why
Speaker 2: I kind of start to figure out ways. I'm like,
Speaker 2: how can I because everybody you know has a has
Speaker 2: a thing, and the truth is they just really need real,
Speaker 2: honest feedback. And a lot of people don't want honest feedback.
Speaker 2: They want to be told this was great and I
Speaker 2: wish you well and I hope this becomes a big
Speaker 2: hit versus you know, this kind of slowed down from
Speaker 2: me in the second act, or these two characters wort
Speaker 2: of sound the same, or I got lost here at
Speaker 2: the end. Folks don't want to hear that because it's
Speaker 2: sort of like, oh, snap, okay, I got to go
Speaker 2: back to the drawing board, or I got to like
Speaker 2: reoutline this, or I need to you know, go back
Speaker 2: in because that's where the writing begins, is the rewriting.
Speaker 1: Right. Well, what I what I'm hearing a lot of
Speaker 1: is that you have to have you know, on the
Speaker 1: one hand, you're talking about knowing your voice and your vision,
Speaker 1: so you have to be able to, as you said,
Speaker 1: say that's not the story I'm telling. That is additive
Speaker 1: to the story I'm telling. And it like it's the
Speaker 1: both and it's like the improv right, It's like, on
Speaker 1: the one side, you really got to know what it
Speaker 1: is you want to talk about, and on the other side,
Speaker 1: you really have to be willing to self interrogate. You
Speaker 1: have to be willing to not let your ego lead.
Speaker 1: And I think, especially in the world of the constant
Speaker 1: refresh right, like the thumb drag on Instagram, everybody wants new, more, now, now, now,
Speaker 1: and the patience that this shit takes is not for
Speaker 1: the fate of heart, not at all.
Speaker 2: And well, I think that's what I really want people
Speaker 2: to understand is that it's a long journey, it's a marathon,
Speaker 2: and there is no finish line. Yeah, there's no there there.
Speaker 2: And then the biggest suff ice trying to get people
Speaker 2: all the time, particularly writers who want to necessarily write,
Speaker 2: you know, whether you for television, or for film or playwrights.
Speaker 2: Table read, Table read, table read, Get actors, get people,
Speaker 2: get writers, get friends, get neighbors, get anybody that's willing
Speaker 2: to come to read your work out loud, because I
Speaker 2: think a lot of times when you're alone and you're
Speaker 2: writing these lines, they feel like Shakespeare. But then when
Speaker 2: someone comes in and tries to say it, they can't
Speaker 2: get through it because it's really no, that's not kind
Speaker 2: to the actor. You know, it's it's fun the writer,
Speaker 2: but the actor has a hard time saying. And I
Speaker 2: always say, sometimes writers write lines that don't feel comfortable
Speaker 2: in actors'.
Speaker 1: Mouths yes and so.
Speaker 2: And that's why for me, when I'm sitting down, I
Speaker 2: say the line after I try to say it, I
Speaker 2: try to like act like I'm both characters and act
Speaker 2: it out and go, oh shit, I'm stumbling over this,
Speaker 2: or I'm having a hard time or this isn't And
Speaker 2: that's why I think what I've been really grateful for
Speaker 2: is that I really try to write dialogue that sounds conversational,
Speaker 2: that sounds quy, and that can feel like music. And
Speaker 2: so that's what kind of we're pretty tough on our
Speaker 2: cast on the shire because I want my voice to
Speaker 2: shine through, and so you can't ad lib, you know,
Speaker 2: and they don't get to throw stuff in even a
Speaker 2: man a huh or this, and that it throws off
Speaker 2: the rhythm. And so we always tell the actors, I'm like,
Speaker 2: it's you know, for for me and looking, we're gonna
Speaker 2: we are season seven next year, and so it's like
Speaker 2: people get used to a certain rhythm or a certain
Speaker 2: way that these characters or a certain where I'm trying
Speaker 2: to find a character, So I need to make sure
Speaker 2: every line, every word that comes out like we're establishing them.
Speaker 2: We're trying to figure out who this character is. And
Speaker 2: so we really do need actors to really say the
Speaker 2: lines and to rock with us. And that means it's
Speaker 2: even more responsibility on us as the writers in that
Speaker 2: table reads, you know, like, hey, is that line too
Speaker 2: hard for you to say? Okay, cool, we'll adjust it,
Speaker 2: we'll figure it out. We'll try to try to hide
Speaker 2: exposition here. So yeah, it's it's it's it's it's a
Speaker 2: lot of back and forth. It's trial and error. It's
Speaker 2: it's listening, it's paying attention. But again, it's about finding
Speaker 2: my unique voice. And it goes from me watching everybody
Speaker 2: from Aaron Sorkin's work to Matthew Winer's work, you know,
Speaker 2: Judit mad Men, watching watching Gray's Anatomy, you know Seanmes.
Speaker 2: You know, it's a big influence as well. So it's
Speaker 2: really about every writer has their own obviously watching Spike
Speaker 2: Lee movies all the time, but it's a very specific
Speaker 2: rhythm to his work. And and yeah, and that's that's
Speaker 2: why I always tell people, I'm like, watch the Greats,
Speaker 2: watch the Ghosts, listen to what they've done, and then
Speaker 2: figure out what your pattern is, what your what your
Speaker 2: tone is, what you're what your pacing is, rather than
Speaker 2: you know, mimicking, which we all kind of start out doing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and now a word from our sponsors. Well, and
Speaker 1: I love the way you talk to about the rhythm
Speaker 1: of something because I know what it's like as an
Speaker 1: actor to say, look, the shape of these words don't
Speaker 1: fit in my mouth. It Can we tweak this? Can
Speaker 1: we can I use this word instead of this one?
Speaker 1: And I think if there's a willingness to find it,
Speaker 1: essentially what you're talking about, it's like linguistic choreography exactly.
Speaker 1: You know, you're making this musical the dance number has
Speaker 1: to work, and dialogue can be that beautiful if you
Speaker 1: really have leaned into the work.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: I love the way you frame all of that.
Speaker 2: I mean it's like we look at Mike Nichols stuff,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, It's like it's all very
Speaker 2: you know, specific, and every word is intentional and so
Speaker 2: that's why it's like there's no throwaway lines or words
Speaker 2: or glances, and you know, everything has meaning and so
Speaker 2: there can always be a conversation after saying, oh, this
Speaker 2: isn't work. And also, but I get real, like if
Speaker 2: we say a word twice, it's like, always say this
Speaker 2: word twice in the sentence, like that was five different work,
Speaker 2: or let's take that a second time you say that
Speaker 2: out is really I mean, you can get very you know,
Speaker 2: in the weeds about it. And that's my favorite kind
Speaker 2: of stuff. We like to geek out about it and
Speaker 2: make sure a scene really feels like its own little symphony.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's beautiful. How as you you know, you moved
Speaker 1: out very wisely. You used your last semester, well, you
Speaker 1: made sure you didn't like create a little environment and
Speaker 1: then dip out, which, which, by the way, I get
Speaker 1: like I was fortunate. You know, my first show was
Speaker 1: on for nine years, but it was on in a
Speaker 1: small town in North Carolina. So when people are like, hey,
Speaker 1: do you know, I'm like, y'all, I don't really know anybody.
Speaker 1: Like I have my friends that I meet in like
Speaker 1: our ways where the artists that are the activists come together,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I'll connect you to anybody I know,
Speaker 1: but I probably don't know the person you're trying to
Speaker 1: talk to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like one of those things I love.
Speaker 1: You know, that's changed a little bit over the more
Speaker 1: recent years, but like I love that you had the
Speaker 1: wherewithal even as a student to say, oh, I'm going
Speaker 1: to make sure I do this well. I'm going to
Speaker 1: make sure the rhythm I established for my life here continues.
Speaker 1: You know, I know how hard it is for women
Speaker 1: in our industry, and you are a brilliant I mean, like,
Speaker 1: I just I think you are a genius. But like,
Speaker 1: let's be real, this is also America and you are
Speaker 1: a black, queer woman.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Do you think you've just had such a strong vision
Speaker 1: and voice that there was no way anything was going
Speaker 1: to get in your way? Or were you able to
Speaker 1: see the obstacles that so many women and so many
Speaker 1: women of color and so many queer folks in our
Speaker 1: industry face and just say like, that's not going to
Speaker 1: catch me, that's not going to slow me down.
Speaker 2: Like.
Speaker 1: Because you've done it. And I just like knowing all
Speaker 1: the things that get added onto the inhibitors list in
Speaker 1: an industry like ours. For you, I'm like, how'd you
Speaker 1: do it? Tell all the queer babies how to do it?
Speaker 2: Well, Look, it's it's it's all about perception, because it's
Speaker 2: about and if you see being black and being a
Speaker 2: woman and being queer as something that'll hold you back,
Speaker 2: it will. And so for me, they the three things
Speaker 2: the way in which I was born. It's almost like
Speaker 2: taking credit for being right handed, but it's they really
Speaker 2: propelled me forward because I'm not all these things. I
Speaker 2: don't think ase these casts me to play. He doesn't
Speaker 2: switch it up and go actually more interesting?
Speaker 1: Right? Yeah? Does he see you? Does Spielberg see you
Speaker 1: like you?
Speaker 2: F're like you're interesting? Yeah? You know, and I haven't
Speaker 2: really seen you before. And clearly I women like myself
Speaker 2: have existed, you know, theod's masks, aggressive, whatever you want
Speaker 2: to call us, we exist have always had, but I
Speaker 2: came along at a time where people were willing to say, Okay,
Speaker 2: we'll give you, you know, the space. And people that
Speaker 2: did do that were Alan Yang A Zas in terms
Speaker 2: of putting me in front of the camera. Yeah, Michael
Speaker 2: Shure as well, and then obviously Steven Spielberg and Allison
Speaker 2: and also credited Alison Jones, who is really should take
Speaker 2: most of the credit for my acting career, because she
Speaker 2: saw the pilot presentation for twenties, which I was not
Speaker 2: in but thought was interesting, and asked me to come
Speaker 2: to our office and I did, and I sat across
Speaker 2: from her. We had a wonderful conversation about just TV
Speaker 2: and the history of it, and she just asked me
Speaker 2: if I had I have any interest in being on
Speaker 2: camera and I said I haven't, and she said, okay, well,
Speaker 2: let he's bring you in for some stuff here and there,
Speaker 2: and she did. Career really began and so and that,
Speaker 2: and that was really her kind of having you know,
Speaker 2: this is a white woman who has been doing this
Speaker 2: for EON's. I mean, she cast freaks and geeks, she
Speaker 2: cast she cast fresh Prince Bell that like she's someone
Speaker 2: who can look at somebody and go, I think you
Speaker 2: should be on television, and she did that, and so
Speaker 2: I think, but that happened by me doing my writing thing,
Speaker 2: by me saying people don't really get what twenty's is.
Speaker 2: So justin Simeon, who was just over here yesterday, who
Speaker 2: created Dear White People, he was like, yo, I did
Speaker 2: a pilot. I did a we did a fake trailer
Speaker 2: for Dear White People, And he was like, let's do
Speaker 2: a pilot presentation for twenty so people can see what
Speaker 2: you're doing. Put it on YouTube. Put it on YouTube.
Speaker 2: And Alison Jones saw, you know, and she was like,
Speaker 2: who made this? And I went in and sat with
Speaker 2: her and she started bringing me in for stuff and
Speaker 2: she's when Alice when disease was like, who should I meet?
Speaker 2: Who should be in this show? Like you should meet
Speaker 2: me away, Damn, that's so cool. That's the thing. It's
Speaker 2: like me being my authentic self is why. And that's
Speaker 2: why I think that in the Emmy speech at residents
Speaker 2: to people like it's the things that make you different,
Speaker 2: those are your super Yeah. So I think we've been
Speaker 2: taught as societies the things that make us different, because
Speaker 2: sometimes when you're oppressed, oppression becomes a part of your
Speaker 2: identity and so and that's how people want it. Because
Speaker 2: as long as I'm like, well, no, I'm black, I'm gay,
Speaker 2: I'm a woman, things are going to be bad. It's
Speaker 2: gonna be rough. It's like, I'm not, you know, an idiot.
Speaker 2: I know where I live and I know the country
Speaker 2: I'm in, but yeah, I also know that it is
Speaker 2: these things about me that make me unlike anyone else,
Speaker 2: and it gives me a different perspective.
Speaker 1: I think it's amazing when you choose to carry your
Speaker 1: magic as magic instead of as something that might need protecting.
Speaker 1: Like you're you're you're talking about the energy of your identity,
Speaker 1: and like I think it's it's all over not only
Speaker 1: your career, but you as a person. Like there's a
Speaker 1: reason when we all walk in a room people are like, hey,
Speaker 1: I love watching people see you. I'm just like, yeah,
Speaker 1: she's so fucking cool, and like I love it. I
Speaker 1: love it because you're right. People will tell us all
Speaker 1: the things we're not supposed to be or the ways
Speaker 1: we're supposed to make ourselves smaller, and it's like.
Speaker 2: No, no, I mean well, and also that's that's uh,
Speaker 2: that's on purpose.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, Oh you mean people might be intimidated
Speaker 1: by your magic.
Speaker 2: You don't say, Well, it's like I think society tells
Speaker 2: you to try to fit in, Yeah, all the things
Speaker 2: that you need to feel better about yourself. Yeah, Because
Speaker 2: you know, we also live in a capitalist society. So
Speaker 2: if you think you need something to be happy, that
Speaker 2: you'll constantly be on the hamster wheel. And so I think, yeah,
Speaker 2: Like for me, I'm just like no, I'm really pleased
Speaker 2: with you know, who I'm becoming and who I am.
Speaker 2: And I see so men particularly, you know, women particularly
Speaker 2: are told this is how you should be and this
Speaker 2: is what is how I'm supposed to go and this
Speaker 2: is by this age. And if you don't did that,
Speaker 2: and so you start to believe you know what people
Speaker 2: are saying. And when you really kind of step back
Speaker 2: and go like, well, says who? If you say says
Speaker 2: a few times a day, you'll start to kind of realize, like,
Speaker 2: we know, if I need to do what society tells
Speaker 2: me I'm supposed to do, because oftentimes those that make
Speaker 2: the most change and live the most bountiful lives are
Speaker 2: those that kind of go against what society told them
Speaker 2: they are supposed to.
Speaker 1: Do I like that? Says Who. It's a nice little mantra.
Speaker 2: Two works, says Who.
Speaker 1: Was it like stepping in the Master of None? I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously you won an Emmy, like it was the whole
Speaker 1: thing was so incredible to watch.
Speaker 2: Were you.
Speaker 1: Did you feel like I'm just going to take this
Speaker 1: leap as an actor and see what happens. Were you
Speaker 1: going to folks like were you sitting there being like
Speaker 1: everybody tell me, like what do I need to know?
Speaker 1: Or did you feel ready from all the writing?
Speaker 2: I honestly didn't know what I was jumping into. I mean,
Speaker 2: as these didn't even have a name for the thing,
Speaker 2: Like it was like, oh wow, the first season, like
Speaker 2: we will sit at that. And I would always tell
Speaker 2: him like just call these he's a sorry show, and
Speaker 2: he was just like no, because that's not really it.
Speaker 2: And I'm actually really you know, I think he was
Speaker 2: smart to not do that. I think actually was right.
Speaker 2: But but I just had always been a fan of
Speaker 2: his his stand up. I love Parks and Rec still
Speaker 2: to this day obsess. I was always more of a
Speaker 2: girl me too. Yeah, it's weird. It's like there are
Speaker 2: two people. It's like either you like Parks to say, like,
Speaker 2: if you're a Parks AREC person, there's so much about
Speaker 2: your personality. It's like it means you're an eternal optimist
Speaker 2: and you're probably a little off the beaten path.
Speaker 1: You're a little nuts in a good way.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I think if you like office, your cynical
Speaker 2: but yet kind, you know. And I think if you're
Speaker 2: a Parks on a Rec person, like you're just you
Speaker 2: marched a video on drum Man and and I love
Speaker 2: that show, and I loved, you know, what Amy did
Speaker 2: for you know, disease with that, you know, and like
Speaker 2: putting him in that space and having him be what
Speaker 2: he needed to be on that show. And then you know,
Speaker 2: it's like, you know, the kids grow up and you
Speaker 2: kind of go, all right, I'm gonna do my own thing.
Speaker 2: And I see him and Alan Yang, who was writing
Speaker 2: on Parks of Wrec obviously at the time, and obviously
Speaker 2: Michael Shore. So I just love that you have people
Speaker 2: from Parks and Wreck that that trifecta and Okay, we're
Speaker 2: gonna do this, so we're gonna see what this feels like.
Speaker 2: And so for me, I was just excited that they
Speaker 2: were like kind of it was almost like they were
Speaker 2: making their own band, like they were a part of
Speaker 2: the popular band that people knew and recognized the music,
Speaker 2: and they were like all right, we're gonna go over here,
Speaker 2: and people are like, all right, what's this about to be?
Speaker 2: And it's like they made three amazing albums, which I
Speaker 2: can considered the three seasons. The first season, which was
Speaker 2: just like what is this? The second season, obviously I
Speaker 2: was really grateful I got to have my own sort
Speaker 2: of you know, my own platform really, and then season three,
Speaker 2: which a Z's and I just kind of really went
Speaker 2: balls to the wall, like he just started to he
Speaker 2: directed everything you see, and I was like number one
Speaker 2: in the call sheet, which was a lesson that I
Speaker 2: was like, Okay, I don't know if I necessarily won't
Speaker 2: do this, Yes it's a lesson, yeah, me and men.
Speaker 2: But it was just it was it's such a it
Speaker 2: was like Camelot, you know, it was a learning space.
Speaker 2: It was a free space and for us to win.
Speaker 2: And I was standing writing in the comedy series two
Speaker 2: years in a row, you know. I think that's why
Speaker 2: the time the third season came around, posted Siga us
Speaker 2: like they were like, okay, we get but they people
Speaker 2: come up to me all the time and talk to
Speaker 2: me about that third season and say, like I was
Speaker 2: changed by it or it was it meant so much
Speaker 2: to me in terms of what you guys were dealing with.
Speaker 2: So I'm really And also it's this thing that kind
Speaker 2: of just exists, like we could always come back, you know,
Speaker 2: ten years from now because these feels like it and
Speaker 2: if we have something to say. But we really grew
Speaker 2: up doing that show a lot, you know, behind the
Speaker 2: scenes and in front of the you know, on camera
Speaker 2: as well. But it's just a special show that just
Speaker 2: exists and lives in this moment in time. And I'm
Speaker 2: really honored that I got to be not just a
Speaker 2: part of it, but to really help build it, to
Speaker 2: help this show, to shape it so much. Yeah to people,
Speaker 2: because it definitely means a lot to me. And the
Speaker 2: fact that people go back and revisit it, it's like
Speaker 2: that's God's own gifts.
Speaker 1: Yeah, That's that's That's the kind of thing that I
Speaker 1: hope to be lucky enough to make in this sort
Speaker 1: of like phase two of career. Like I'm so grateful
Speaker 1: for the I've gotten to do, don't get me wrong, Like,
Speaker 1: you know, working in this industry as a dream, but
Speaker 1: like there is a little bit of a different thing
Speaker 1: when you do a long running thing on a network
Speaker 1: and watching y'all do that was was really special. It's
Speaker 1: it's it's always cool to me as an artist when
Speaker 1: I get to watch something that reminds me of why
Speaker 1: I love my job.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, me too. Yeah, I mean I think Baby
Speaker 2: Reindeer was that for a lot of people too. Kind
Speaker 2: of saw that and thought, oh wow, TV can be
Speaker 2: this again. Yes, it's still in there, still there, We're
Speaker 2: still here.
Speaker 1: And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. When you
Speaker 1: talk about being you know, you're coming into season seven
Speaker 1: on the Shy, Like, what is it like now to
Speaker 1: be that long into a project that you've created, Because
Speaker 1: it is, as you say, it's gift and it's a
Speaker 1: big world to have to run. So how do you
Speaker 1: like On the one hand, you want to keep these
Speaker 1: you know, storylines engaging for your viewers, and there's pressure
Speaker 1: to always maintain, you know, a level of excellence on
Speaker 1: your projects. And on the other hand, it's like seven
Speaker 1: years in, it's a it's a big I don't want
Speaker 1: to say a weight that makes it sound negative, but
Speaker 1: like it's big. It's just a big thing, you know,
Speaker 1: to have in the bag, Like, how how do you
Speaker 1: keep it feeling fresh for yourself as a creative so
Speaker 1: that you can continue to bring that that kind of
Speaker 1: new magic seven years in. No.
Speaker 2: I think it's a really good question. And I think
Speaker 2: what I recently started to think about it in this
Speaker 2: way is that every season is like an album m
Speaker 2: and so when you think about some of your favorite artists,
Speaker 2: you know, every album is different. It speaks to where
Speaker 2: they are in their lives and what they're thinking about,
Speaker 2: what they're listening to, and and so that's what That's
Speaker 2: the way it remains exciting for me is that when
Speaker 2: we go into the writer's room, it's like going into
Speaker 2: the studio and go, okay, we got a fresh pad
Speaker 2: the kay before? What now? What? What where are we at? Now?
Speaker 2: What do we want to talk about? Now? You know?
Speaker 2: What are some characters? We get to play musical chairs
Speaker 2: a little bit with the with the characters and kind
Speaker 2: of figure out all, right, who do we want what
Speaker 2: do we want to get into? And that to me
Speaker 2: is the most exciting is the beginning of every you know,
Speaker 2: writers room season, because it's sort of like all right,
Speaker 2: it's a new beginning, and then it's about you know,
Speaker 2: finding these new moments. And I also think of every
Speaker 2: episode as a track of an album. So it's like
Speaker 2: every track isn't necessarily supposed to be a Billboard one hundred.
Speaker 2: You know, some episodes are supposed to be sleepers. B sides. Uh,
Speaker 2: you know one of those songs you can't get out
Speaker 2: of your head. And that's really how I try to
Speaker 2: approach it. It is like music. And the thing about
Speaker 2: it is what I think has kept people coming back
Speaker 2: with the shot is that no season is like the
Speaker 2: one before it. Yeah, because we aren't the same and
Speaker 2: the actors are in a different space, and you know,
Speaker 2: we want to come back and be fresh, and that
Speaker 2: is that's the thing is, it's challenging yourself to not
Speaker 2: be the same. Here's like you got to be new,
Speaker 2: and that means we as people have to evolve, We
Speaker 2: have to grow, and our lives do evolve. In me,
Speaker 2: we had two women in our writers room be pregnant
Speaker 2: last season. They were both pregnant and so now they
Speaker 2: don't have babies now, and so it's like we go
Speaker 2: to the new season, it's just sort of like, oh,
Speaker 2: their lives are evolving and changing, and they're bringing that
Speaker 2: into the writer's room. So anyone that kind of wants like,
Speaker 2: can you make it like the first two seasons? Or
Speaker 2: I really like that season four, I realized season five
Speaker 2: it's like that is gone about where we are now.
Speaker 2: And also it speaks to society because you do have
Speaker 2: friends in your life who are always evolving, always always
Speaker 2: trying to find themselves. And then there's some friends that
Speaker 2: are like, I'm good, this is me, this is who
Speaker 2: I am. I'm not changing. You can take it or
Speaker 2: leave it, and both ways of walking through the world
Speaker 2: are valid. But it's just a matter of who would
Speaker 2: you rather go on the journey of life with someone
Speaker 2: who is constantly searching for truth, but someone that thinks
Speaker 2: they've already found it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm in a group a yeah, same.
Speaker 2: I'm always searching. Yeah, and some people aren't. And that's okay, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, but I think I can't be making a
Speaker 2: TV show and not be always self interrogating, because if
Speaker 2: I start to think I got it, I know what's up,
Speaker 2: I figured it out, the work will start to reflect
Speaker 2: that and not do well.
Speaker 1: And by the way, if you think you've already figured
Speaker 1: it out. Then you're doing your series finale and the
Speaker 1: show's over, Like, what more do you have to explore
Speaker 1: if you're not.
Speaker 2: Exploring, always exploring, always finding new things, trying to like,
Speaker 2: you know, just keep digging.
Speaker 1: Okay, So is this what led us to the podcast?
Speaker 2: No, the podcast really came about because I was like,
Speaker 2: we need another podcast in this world, like we need
Speaker 2: so I said, what is my version of that? And
Speaker 2: but Justin Riley, who's been a friend of mine forever,
Speaker 2: who actually had a podcast way way back in the
Speaker 2: day before they were popular. He he was telling me,
Speaker 2: he was like, Lena, you are such a good conversationalist,
Speaker 2: like you should like get into this game and you
Speaker 2: should talk to people. But I was like, but who
Speaker 2: am I talking to and why and what's going on?
Speaker 2: And then that's where legacy Talk was sort of born,
Speaker 2: where it was more about than I talked to black
Speaker 2: women in particular whose legacies have impacted mine. And that's
Speaker 2: what we can list where it is Gina Prince, Bythewood,
Speaker 2: Charlie Ralph mar Rockakeeel, Jada Pinkett, Jennifer Lewis, And that's
Speaker 2: what not least it's gonna be Debbie Allen and so
Speaker 2: I had these just phenomenal conversations and it's an rip
Speaker 2: and Nicki Giovanni, may she rest in peace. But there's
Speaker 2: this beautiful conversation. If you haven't seen it, I implore
Speaker 2: you to see it, especially now, a conversation between Nikki
Speaker 2: Giovanni and James Baldwin that was filed in London. I think,
Speaker 2: oh man, like in the seventies, because like Nikki Jima
Speaker 2: really young, just like just like a young poet artist
Speaker 2: at the time. And then Baldwin is Baldwin, but he
Speaker 2: at this point she's written enough things where he knows
Speaker 2: who she is and respects her. And yeah, and it's
Speaker 2: just a stunning conversation. And I stumbled upon it when
Speaker 2: I was wrapping up, you know, production on Queen and
Speaker 2: Slim and just it just blown away by these two
Speaker 2: people talking about everything about about life, about you know,
Speaker 2: the church and being black and men and women, and
Speaker 2: it is a conversation you can watch again and again
Speaker 2: and again, and it is. It was a conversation also
Speaker 2: that was orchestrated by a phenomenal queer black man named
Speaker 2: Ellis Haslip. And you haven't seen this documentary it's on HBO.
Speaker 2: Max called Soul Explanation Point, which was a series that
Speaker 2: he did in the seventies that was on public television
Speaker 2: and it was just a beautiful show that that highlighted
Speaker 2: black artists at the time and revolutionary conversations. And so
Speaker 2: he was friends with Nikki Giovanni and he asked her,
Speaker 2: who do you want to speak to? And she's like,
Speaker 2: I want to talk to j Baldwin. And he's like, oh,
Speaker 2: I can make that happen. He's living in London right now.
Speaker 1: Don't worry, just me taking notes, please do.
Speaker 2: And so he put this, so this, this amazing queer
Speaker 2: black man put this, this, this conversation together that would
Speaker 2: be filmed and recorded that I would later find, you know.
Speaker 2: I was like sitting in the hotel room in New
Speaker 2: Orleans and watched it and just was just really blessed
Speaker 2: by it. And anyone that watched this conversation will be
Speaker 2: blessed by it because of such mutual respect, so much nuanced,
Speaker 2: so much understanding their light bulb moments on both sides
Speaker 2: that are happening. They're truly listening to each other and
Speaker 2: respecting each other. And so I always love that dialogue
Speaker 2: and I wanted to have dialogue like that with people
Speaker 2: who were elders of mine. You know, I think I
Speaker 2: definitely relate to Nicky's body in that conversation. Yeah, talking
Speaker 2: to an elder, talking to somebody's respects, and she, you know,
Speaker 2: wouldn't be where she is in that moment without the
Speaker 2: work that he'd already done. And so and that's really
Speaker 2: what kind of spoke to me about it. I said,
Speaker 2: how can we record and document these conversations for people
Speaker 2: to have, for people to reference, for people to be
Speaker 2: blessed by. And so that's when we really to talk
Speaker 2: with Leena ways was sort of born.
Speaker 1: I love that. I love that and I didn't know that.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I've ever told you the whole Aha.
Speaker 1: The light bulb moment for me to do this show
Speaker 1: was sitting in a gathering of all the incredible women
Speaker 1: we know. I was in Glorious Dyinem's living room talking
Speaker 1: about how these intergenerational, diverse, brilliant groups of women we're
Speaker 1: going to continue to push for progress.
Speaker 2: And I was like.
Speaker 1: The privilege of my life to be in this room,
Speaker 1: Like if I could have told, you know, little twenty
Speaker 1: year old me in Christopher Smith's class at the Annenberg
Speaker 1: School of Journalism that I would be texting with Glorious
Speaker 1: Dynams sitting in her.
Speaker 2: Living room, like what yet, I'm a leader too, She's.
Speaker 1: It's like that thing of what we get to do
Speaker 1: as people with a platform that you can give these
Speaker 1: conversations away. It's like one of the only still free
Speaker 1: spaces of media for folks. Like I think it's so
Speaker 1: beautiful and it kind of like weirdly makes me want
Speaker 1: to cry that you were like, oh, these are the
Speaker 1: conversations I want to record so other people can access them,
Speaker 1: because not everybody's going to get to sit with Debbie
Speaker 1: Allen or Shirley Ralph, but they can listen to you
Speaker 1: do it.
Speaker 2: And that.
Speaker 1: Like the legacy of that, the gift of that to
Speaker 1: the world. I don't I don't take lightly. I think
Speaker 1: it's beautiful.
Speaker 2: I don't take it lightly that I appreciate that and
Speaker 2: the fact that it's accessible, fact put it up on YouTube,
Speaker 2: watch or listen. That's what I take it very seriously,
Speaker 2: you know, I think I don't want to just and
Speaker 2: even I think it's our conversations. We we we'll sit
Speaker 2: out for a couple hours and we'll kind of cut
Speaker 2: them down to about forty you know, minutes to get
Speaker 2: rid of all the space and and things that you
Speaker 2: kind of don't need. And I think there's people are
Speaker 2: so used to those three hour you know type of way,
Speaker 2: which is like look to teach his own But I'm
Speaker 2: just to me, I want to get to the meet
Speaker 2: and I want to be specific and I want to
Speaker 2: I want to really get some some clarity on things
Speaker 2: and ask very specific questions. So I know, folks, the
Speaker 2: only asked, which is a beautiful gift. Can they be longer?
Speaker 2: Can they be longer? And I'm just like no, like,
Speaker 2: we are going to give you a finite amount of
Speaker 2: information and we're gonna not then We're not going to
Speaker 2: talk about every project they've ever done. We're going to
Speaker 2: talk about projects that meant something to me that I think,
Speaker 2: you know, we should discuss in this conversation. Are curated conversations.
Speaker 2: They're not these long like four hours just sitting there
Speaker 2: so we're talking like tell me when your mother grew up. No,
Speaker 2: It's like with Shelley Route, we started writing at dream Girls,
Speaker 2: and I think it kind of because she was like, oh,
Speaker 2: you're not going to warm up to this, I'm like, no,
Speaker 2: like the audition process for dream Girl, so like wow,
Speaker 2: that like you know, and she's like like crazy, Like
Speaker 2: I thought I was good. I was good. I was
Speaker 2: like okay, you know, and because I want to start
Speaker 2: really where the flagship thing is for them, you know,
Speaker 2: and then go from there and you talk about where
Speaker 2: what the most famous thing is that they're known for now.
Speaker 2: I love that you had to go from dream Girls
Speaker 2: to Avid Elementary was pretty cool.
Speaker 1: Hand incredible. I finally I got to meet her at
Speaker 1: Wicked Oh, and was like, oh my god, she's unbelievable.
Speaker 1: She gave me a box of she gave Charlie Harveston
Speaker 1: and I and he addressed her but never met her.
Speaker 1: They had done everything virtually, and so with the three
Speaker 1: of us we were just and they were hugging and
Speaker 1: it was so sweet. And then I don't know where
Speaker 1: they came from, but she magically had snacks and there
Speaker 1: were no snacks anywhere, and she gave us a box
Speaker 1: of peanut Eminem's And if you think I did not
Speaker 1: have that box on my kitchen counter for like three weeks,
Speaker 1: I was like, nobody touched that. That was for miss
Speaker 1: Cheryl for nobody touch it so fun who do you
Speaker 1: who do you go to? Because you know you are
Speaker 1: a mentor, you are a curious person, you are you
Speaker 1: are a person who can you know, sit with your
Speaker 1: elders to ask all these questions to who do you
Speaker 1: go to when you need advice? Like who's the person
Speaker 1: you call for feedback?
Speaker 2: Oh? Man, that's sucks pretty you know, like Debbie Allen
Speaker 2: for sure, Jada Pinkett, h Rashida Jones about anything life career.
Speaker 2: You can ask Ratia Jones about anything under the sun
Speaker 2: and she'll have a really good answer. Yeah, Like those
Speaker 2: are definitely the you know, Gina prins By. It's so
Speaker 2: funny that the people I sat down across from, Man,
Speaker 2: it's like these these amazing women who uh always have
Speaker 2: wise things to offer. Yeah, for sure. Also last night,
Speaker 2: just like talking to it's and that's the thing too.
Speaker 2: I think sometimes people think about mentor it's so very
Speaker 2: much like you know, you think it's like the big
Speaker 2: chair and like sit at my feet. But it's also
Speaker 2: good sometimes just to kind of kicky with your mentors
Speaker 2: and laugh and and and see them as human beings
Speaker 2: as well. I think that's so nice.
Speaker 1: When you get to have the that kind of like
Speaker 1: meedness about work, but when it's not just about work,
Speaker 1: when you get to like be with your peopil, it's
Speaker 1: really refreshing. I did the most embarrassing thing at the
Speaker 1: last Grays table read, because, like I mean, Debbie Allen
Speaker 1: is like, she's Debbie Alan, she is an icon. I
Speaker 1: met her like once at an award show I don't know,
Speaker 1: five years before the pandemic. So I walked up to
Speaker 1: her and I was like, I am just so thrilled
Speaker 1: to be here. I said, Debbie, it's so nice to
Speaker 1: meet you. I'm Sophia Bush. And she looked at me
Speaker 1: like my grandmother used to and goes, no, she like
Speaker 1: it was so sweet. She just she looked at me
Speaker 1: like I was nuts. And I was like, I was like,
Speaker 1: but but you're Debbie Allen. So on the off chant
Speaker 1: there's eighty six people here, I'm going to introduce myself
Speaker 1: to you because you are Debbie Allan.
Speaker 2: She kid get out of here, an icon. That's what
Speaker 2: gets me every time, because I'm obviously upset. Yes doesn't
Speaker 2: do it, she just doesn't. Yeah it does, she doesn't. Bothered.
Speaker 1: No, no, unbelievable. You wanted to talk about the book, Oh.
Speaker 2: Ray Hansburbury, what I must tell the world How Loraene
Speaker 2: Hansbury found her voice? Words by j Leslie Pictures about
Speaker 2: love is wise, very very grateful, Uh that we have
Speaker 2: this book coming out for kids of all ages. We're
Speaker 2: going to be talking about this book a lot more
Speaker 2: and pulling up to New York this month's and talk
Speaker 2: to Sherry Shepherd about it. Yeah. It's a cool, cool,
Speaker 2: cool Christmas gift put under the tree kids alike, rain Hands.
Speaker 2: Very amazing woman out of South side of Chicago.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what inspired you to get involved in the children's book.
Speaker 2: Well, we were doing some work with Zando. We have
Speaker 2: home and Grab books and we actually didn't think we're
Speaker 2: gonna do the children's book. We like that wasn't on
Speaker 2: the Bingo card, but it just sort of came about
Speaker 2: and we and obviously I'm a big note Loraine Hansbury,
Speaker 2: just you know, obsessed, always being from Chicago, hearing about her.
Speaker 2: Obviously Raising the Sun was her similar work. Died at
Speaker 2: thirty four, and she just changed the world through her voice,
Speaker 2: through words on the page. And she was the youngest
Speaker 2: black play right not even black, the youngest play right
Speaker 2: ever to have a show on Broadway, to have a
Speaker 2: play on Broadway, and the first black person to have
Speaker 2: a play on Broadway. And then Jordian Cooper became the
Speaker 2: youngest play rights ever have a show on Broadway with
Speaker 2: eight No More. He vested her about a few years.
Speaker 2: But I also think it's very beautiful in that, even
Speaker 2: him being a queer black play right as well. It's
Speaker 2: just it's it's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful history.
Speaker 2: I wanted to play a small part in over a
Speaker 2: No Mo but Verin Hansbury is someone who was just
Speaker 2: a seed that became a tree, so many branches that
Speaker 2: the fruit that come off that tree. I think I
Speaker 2: get to be one of those pieces of fruit. That's
Speaker 2: how powerful her legacy is and will continue to be.
Speaker 2: And so it's important for me that people know who
Speaker 2: she was and who she still is. You know, even
Speaker 2: though someone is on earth'side anymore, it doesn't mean their
Speaker 2: presence is no longer felt. So I hope you could
Speaker 2: to get this book and read about her and learn
Speaker 2: about her and continue to tell the world about who
Speaker 2: she was and how she changed it.
Speaker 1: Yes, well, it's interesting, right, She's not Earth's side. You
Speaker 1: can't sit down with her on legacy talks. But in
Speaker 1: a way, her legacy is still fucking still still going
Speaker 1: to teach the babies.
Speaker 2: Still teaching. Yes, So that's that's part of my legacy
Speaker 2: is to carry hers forward. Truth.
Speaker 1: I love it. I mean I could sit in Kiki
Speaker 1: with you for the next three hours.
Speaker 2: But like you have things now, we could have one
Speaker 2: of those those pockets, just like three and a half.
Speaker 1: We should, but not on the record. Maybe we just
Speaker 1: have it in like life. But this is my favorite
Speaker 1: question to ask everybody who comes on the show. But
Speaker 1: the New year energy makes it maybe feel more sparkly
Speaker 1: as you look out at what's to come for you
Speaker 1: this year, whether it's something you know, professional or personal,
Speaker 1: or maybe it's a hybrid of both. What feels like
Speaker 1: your work in progress.
Speaker 2: Myself, you know, as a human, and me stepping into
Speaker 2: the theater space in this way. I've obviously I produced
Speaker 2: a play Ain't No More written by Jordan Cooper, but
Speaker 2: this I've you know, trying my hand at writing my
Speaker 2: first play. I want to be in it and it
Speaker 2: is it's just it's so nerve wrecking, exciting, and fear
Speaker 2: inducing in the best way, and and it's also just humbling.
Speaker 2: Yeah you And so that's just that's the that's that's
Speaker 2: the that's the energy I want to be in. I
Speaker 2: think all twenty twenty five, you know, especially as we
Speaker 2: enter into this new this new era, you know, this
Speaker 2: new presidency, it's really about what are you? What do
Speaker 2: you have control over? And what do you accept? Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: You know, let's practice radical acceptance and also be radical
Speaker 2: in the art that we're doing.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, the storytelling is going to it's going to
Speaker 1: matter more than ever again mm hmmm. Yeah, hm, absolutely.
Speaker 2: I always love somebody as James Baldwin. Are you a
Speaker 2: revolutionary writer? He said, I'm a writer in revolutionary times.
Speaker 2: M hm exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean the artist's job is to be in the
Speaker 1: world and tell the truth about it, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, reflect the time, and also tell their truth. Everybody
Speaker 2: has their own version of the truth. M I always
Speaker 2: sa everybody thinks they're right.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I really like a.
Speaker 1: Sort of descriptor that my therapist gave me. He was like,
Speaker 1: there's going to be your truth and this person's truth,
Speaker 1: and then there's going to be the truth somewhere in
Speaker 1: between the two, and sometimes it'll be closer to the
Speaker 1: your edge of the ruler, and sometimes it'll be closer
Speaker 1: to the other persons. And I think that's an important
Speaker 1: thing to remember. And when you talk about how we
Speaker 1: do what we do and and the requirement to be
Speaker 1: humbled over and over again by it, like you got
Speaker 1: to make space for a sliding scale of of reality
Speaker 1: and then go and tell yours. I think that's really
Speaker 1: it's powerful.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's just it's it's a you know, it's a responsibility.
Speaker 2: And I think that's why we can't be lazy in
Speaker 2: the work and we can't do it glory.
Speaker 1: Yeah, mmm, I love it. I just adore you. Thank
Speaker 1: you for coming on the show. I love you know
Speaker 1: the laundry list of all you do and all the
Speaker 1: goodness you put in the world. You are just a gem.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you for being so amazing and just
Speaker 2: being a true ally and a beacon of hope. You
Speaker 2: know it means a lot.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I will receive that kindness. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for sure.