1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:18,556 --> 00:00:20,996 Speaker 2: My parents didn't take us to fast food places when 3 00:00:20,996 --> 00:00:24,316 Speaker 2: I was little. They thought they were an abomination. In 4 00:00:24,356 --> 00:00:26,836 Speaker 2: any case, we didn't have a McDonald's back then in 5 00:00:26,876 --> 00:00:29,516 Speaker 2: our little town, so it wasn't like I was confronted 6 00:00:29,556 --> 00:00:32,596 Speaker 2: by the fact of French fries. They were some dimly 7 00:00:32,796 --> 00:00:36,556 Speaker 2: understood concept, something that people out there somewhere did to 8 00:00:36,596 --> 00:00:43,476 Speaker 2: a potato that somehow implicated the French. Then one day, 9 00:00:43,836 --> 00:00:47,636 Speaker 2: after track practice, thirteen years old, I went to my 10 00:00:47,676 --> 00:00:52,076 Speaker 2: first McDonald's. Have you ever seen a puppy encounter snow 11 00:00:52,156 --> 00:00:55,156 Speaker 2: for the first time. He burrows his nose into it 12 00:00:55,356 --> 00:00:57,996 Speaker 2: with this look of perplexity and sheer delight because he 13 00:00:58,076 --> 00:01:00,636 Speaker 2: can't understand where this white thing came from that is 14 00:01:00,676 --> 00:01:04,236 Speaker 2: both fluffy and cold. It was like that for me, 15 00:01:05,076 --> 00:01:08,316 Speaker 2: a slice of potato, crispy on the outside, yet somehow 16 00:01:08,356 --> 00:01:12,636 Speaker 2: pillowy soft on the inside. Right then and there, I 17 00:01:12,716 --> 00:01:17,036 Speaker 2: gave my heart to McDonald's, and then McDonald's broke it. 18 00:01:21,236 --> 00:01:24,596 Speaker 2: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 19 00:01:24,676 --> 00:01:31,156 Speaker 2: my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This week, I'm 20 00:01:31,196 --> 00:01:34,716 Speaker 2: on a mission to understand why McDonald's betrayed me so 21 00:01:34,836 --> 00:01:45,196 Speaker 2: many years ago. Our story begins in a nondescript office 22 00:01:45,236 --> 00:01:48,876 Speaker 2: park in Foster City, California, just south of San Francisco, 23 00:01:49,156 --> 00:01:52,356 Speaker 2: a place called Matson, maybe the top food research and 24 00:01:52,396 --> 00:01:55,916 Speaker 2: development house in the country, the Los Salamos of food science. 25 00:01:56,756 --> 00:01:59,476 Speaker 2: I came here to walk back the cat, as they 26 00:01:59,476 --> 00:02:02,676 Speaker 2: say in the intelligence business, to figure out what happened 27 00:02:02,716 --> 00:02:06,356 Speaker 2: on July twenty third, nineteen ninety, the day McDonald's changed 28 00:02:06,396 --> 00:02:09,476 Speaker 2: the recipe of their fries forever and turned in their 29 00:02:09,516 --> 00:02:11,036 Speaker 2: backs on everything I once held. 30 00:02:11,076 --> 00:02:20,756 Speaker 1: Dear, I'll go get. 31 00:02:20,556 --> 00:02:22,876 Speaker 3: Another likes mort and then I'm just gonna take the 32 00:02:22,916 --> 00:02:23,676 Speaker 3: temperature down to. 33 00:02:23,676 --> 00:02:27,596 Speaker 2: The I said to Mattson, make me some fries the 34 00:02:27,676 --> 00:02:31,396 Speaker 2: old way. Let's do a taste test modern fries versus 35 00:02:31,596 --> 00:02:33,196 Speaker 2: original McDonald's fries. 36 00:02:33,996 --> 00:02:34,556 Speaker 1: So we did. 37 00:02:34,996 --> 00:02:38,476 Speaker 2: We ate them, sat there in the Matson conference room 38 00:02:38,636 --> 00:02:40,116 Speaker 2: in a blissful food comma. 39 00:02:40,516 --> 00:02:45,636 Speaker 1: These are I'm going back to the Those are King fries. 40 00:02:47,276 --> 00:02:49,716 Speaker 2: Then we thought, let's call in some people too young 41 00:02:49,756 --> 00:02:52,116 Speaker 2: to who ever tasted the old kind, just to make 42 00:02:52,116 --> 00:02:54,796 Speaker 2: sure we weren't all dreaming that this wasn't some middle 43 00:02:54,836 --> 00:02:57,316 Speaker 2: aged fantasy about how everything was better in the good 44 00:02:57,316 --> 00:02:57,916 Speaker 2: old days. 45 00:02:58,716 --> 00:03:00,596 Speaker 1: Do we have a millennial grab right away? 46 00:03:02,996 --> 00:03:08,756 Speaker 2: Maybe quick before the fries get cold. We had the 47 00:03:08,756 --> 00:03:13,036 Speaker 2: batches of fries in identical baskets, identified only by number 48 00:03:13,756 --> 00:03:18,516 Speaker 2: six thirty seven, one, twenty eight, and seventy five. We 49 00:03:18,556 --> 00:03:21,996 Speaker 2: lined up the millennials. Start here, go down the line. 50 00:03:22,196 --> 00:03:23,756 Speaker 2: I want to know which one you. 51 00:03:23,756 --> 00:03:26,716 Speaker 1: Like the best millennial French for Asbians. 52 00:03:26,796 --> 00:03:30,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the millennial French fried eating contest. 53 00:03:31,836 --> 00:03:33,396 Speaker 1: We have three Just for the record, we have three 54 00:03:33,436 --> 00:03:34,436 Speaker 1: millennials here, that's. 55 00:03:34,356 --> 00:03:38,396 Speaker 2: Correct, twenty three, twenty eight, twenty five years of age. 56 00:03:38,796 --> 00:03:42,836 Speaker 2: The food scientists of the future. They sample all three options. 57 00:03:43,116 --> 00:03:44,916 Speaker 2: They all reach the same conclusion. 58 00:03:45,316 --> 00:03:48,716 Speaker 1: I like this one. You like the first seven? 59 00:03:48,876 --> 00:03:49,036 Speaker 3: Yeah? 60 00:03:49,276 --> 00:03:51,676 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, who's next? 61 00:03:52,156 --> 00:03:53,756 Speaker 3: I also choose six thirty seven. 62 00:03:54,916 --> 00:03:57,356 Speaker 4: I think I like I'm kind of torn between one, 63 00:03:57,436 --> 00:04:01,316 Speaker 4: twenty eight and sixty three seven, but I think I 64 00:04:01,436 --> 00:04:03,716 Speaker 4: like a six three seven slightly. 65 00:04:03,396 --> 00:04:08,276 Speaker 2: Better, six thirty seven, six thirty seven. 66 00:04:13,636 --> 00:04:17,556 Speaker 5: I've had the great opportunity to make a lot of 67 00:04:17,596 --> 00:04:21,196 Speaker 5: money and do something with it. 68 00:04:20,756 --> 00:04:21,476 Speaker 1: To help people. 69 00:04:22,796 --> 00:04:25,516 Speaker 2: There was a time in America a generation ago when 70 00:04:25,516 --> 00:04:28,036 Speaker 2: a man called Phil Sokoloff was a household name. 71 00:04:29,316 --> 00:04:33,116 Speaker 3: My dad was just very intense, and he was a 72 00:04:33,156 --> 00:04:35,556 Speaker 3: lovely person, but very intense. 73 00:04:36,196 --> 00:04:38,756 Speaker 2: That's Karen Javic, Phil Sokoloff's daughter. 74 00:04:38,996 --> 00:04:41,356 Speaker 3: It's hard to explain it. You have to experience it. 75 00:04:41,916 --> 00:04:45,276 Speaker 3: I mean the man that bought his business from him. Okay, 76 00:04:45,676 --> 00:04:49,556 Speaker 3: my dad would talk a lot. This guy would sit 77 00:04:49,596 --> 00:04:52,796 Speaker 3: with my dad for hours. And this was an accountant. 78 00:04:52,836 --> 00:04:54,916 Speaker 3: He knew so many people around Oman, and he came 79 00:04:54,956 --> 00:04:59,156 Speaker 3: to me, he said, your father is the most intense 80 00:04:59,276 --> 00:05:01,396 Speaker 3: person I have ever met. 81 00:05:01,836 --> 00:05:05,396 Speaker 2: Sokoloff started the business making cornerbad which is the metal 82 00:05:05,396 --> 00:05:08,676 Speaker 2: bracing that you use when you installed drywall. He noticed 83 00:05:08,716 --> 00:05:12,276 Speaker 2: that it was really expensive, decided he could make it cheaper. 84 00:05:12,516 --> 00:05:16,516 Speaker 3: And he just found this niche that you know, just 85 00:05:16,676 --> 00:05:18,396 Speaker 3: happened to make a lot of money. And he was 86 00:05:18,516 --> 00:05:20,676 Speaker 3: very driven and he knew he'd make a lot of money. 87 00:05:20,716 --> 00:05:23,436 Speaker 3: But once he made his money, and then he sort 88 00:05:23,436 --> 00:05:25,356 Speaker 3: of got tired of the business and he knew he 89 00:05:25,396 --> 00:05:27,196 Speaker 3: wanted to try and do something to help people. 90 00:05:28,036 --> 00:05:31,796 Speaker 2: Then Sokoloff had a heart attack. He was forty three years. 91 00:05:31,596 --> 00:05:34,076 Speaker 3: Old and he was in good shape. The only thing 92 00:05:34,116 --> 00:05:37,636 Speaker 3: he did wrong was he didn't eat right and he 93 00:05:37,676 --> 00:05:39,316 Speaker 3: had a high cholesterol. 94 00:05:39,516 --> 00:05:42,316 Speaker 2: When you say he didn't eat well. Were what was 95 00:05:42,356 --> 00:05:42,836 Speaker 2: he like. 96 00:05:42,796 --> 00:05:47,596 Speaker 3: Before the Yeah he was then. He always said he 97 00:05:47,716 --> 00:05:51,276 Speaker 3: ate too much chili, he ate too much meat, too 98 00:05:51,356 --> 00:05:55,316 Speaker 3: many fats, and high cholesterol. Though also is genetic, he 99 00:05:55,356 --> 00:05:56,756 Speaker 3: had heart problems in his family. 100 00:05:57,156 --> 00:06:00,436 Speaker 2: He was really shaken by this, by this heart attack. 101 00:06:00,836 --> 00:06:05,596 Speaker 3: Yeah, oh, this totally devastated him. Never ever expected this 102 00:06:05,636 --> 00:06:07,476 Speaker 3: to happen. And when you're forty three, you know, you 103 00:06:07,476 --> 00:06:11,476 Speaker 3: think you're gonna live forever. And this really changed his 104 00:06:11,636 --> 00:06:13,476 Speaker 3: life totally. 105 00:06:13,596 --> 00:06:16,276 Speaker 2: Sokolov's doctors tell him his diet and his high cholesterol 106 00:06:16,316 --> 00:06:19,076 Speaker 2: levels put him at risk for more heart attacks, so 107 00:06:19,116 --> 00:06:22,316 Speaker 2: he decides to do something about it, not just for himself, 108 00:06:22,556 --> 00:06:26,356 Speaker 2: but for everyone. He starts a crusade. He wants to 109 00:06:26,396 --> 00:06:30,476 Speaker 2: save America from saturated fat, the alleged culprit in high cholesterol. 110 00:06:31,516 --> 00:06:35,276 Speaker 2: Skoaloff pays to have cholesterol tests for thousands of Nebraskans. 111 00:06:35,756 --> 00:06:38,036 Speaker 2: He goes to Capitol Hill and does the same thing 112 00:06:38,196 --> 00:06:41,756 Speaker 2: for ten thousand people who work there, including seventy senators. 113 00:06:42,316 --> 00:06:45,276 Speaker 2: He starts campaigns to get low fat milk in school lunches. 114 00:06:45,716 --> 00:06:47,996 Speaker 2: He buys full page ads in the Wall Street Journal 115 00:06:47,996 --> 00:06:50,076 Speaker 2: and The New York Times and The Washington Post with 116 00:06:50,276 --> 00:06:54,356 Speaker 2: huge scary headlines. One year, he buys a two point 117 00:06:54,396 --> 00:06:57,636 Speaker 2: five million dollar ad. During the Super Bowl, he takes 118 00:06:57,636 --> 00:07:00,756 Speaker 2: over a billboard in Times Square to say, cut fat, 119 00:07:00,876 --> 00:07:07,156 Speaker 2: intake and live longer. This campaign that he was involved in, 120 00:07:07,516 --> 00:07:10,316 Speaker 2: he's spent an enormous amount of his own money on this. 121 00:07:10,836 --> 00:07:14,076 Speaker 3: Yeah, he really did. I'm not sure how much. Whether 122 00:07:14,156 --> 00:07:17,476 Speaker 3: it was fourteen fifteen million, I can't remember. 123 00:07:17,636 --> 00:07:17,956 Speaker 1: Wow. 124 00:07:18,196 --> 00:07:20,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, which thirty years ago is a lot of money, 125 00:07:20,396 --> 00:07:20,876 Speaker 2: A lot of. 126 00:07:20,836 --> 00:07:23,116 Speaker 3: Money it still is. I remember my aunt telling me 127 00:07:23,196 --> 00:07:24,916 Speaker 3: he's spending all of your inheritance. 128 00:07:31,756 --> 00:07:34,596 Speaker 2: Sokoloff was un Phil Donahue, the Nightly News. 129 00:07:35,356 --> 00:07:37,916 Speaker 6: For most of us, cholesterol was a private affair. But 130 00:07:38,156 --> 00:07:40,996 Speaker 6: an Omaha man has made it a public crusade, and 131 00:07:41,036 --> 00:07:44,196 Speaker 6: he is spending a personal fortune going after what he 132 00:07:44,276 --> 00:07:47,316 Speaker 6: thinks are the fountains of fat in America. 133 00:07:48,076 --> 00:07:52,196 Speaker 2: The fountains of fat. Sokoloff goes to the source. He 134 00:07:52,276 --> 00:07:54,876 Speaker 2: finds a way to personally lobby the CEOs of big 135 00:07:54,916 --> 00:08:00,316 Speaker 2: food companies Kellogg, Ralston, Purina, Pillsbury. How on earth he 136 00:08:00,356 --> 00:08:03,356 Speaker 2: got through? No one seems to know. When he called 137 00:08:03,436 --> 00:08:07,916 Speaker 2: up some of these executives at big food companies. What 138 00:08:07,956 --> 00:08:10,676 Speaker 2: was he saying to them? Is he charming them? Was 139 00:08:10,676 --> 00:08:13,036 Speaker 2: he browbeating them? Was he I'm just curious about what 140 00:08:13,116 --> 00:08:14,596 Speaker 2: kind of conversations were going on. 141 00:08:15,036 --> 00:08:20,636 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was that he was eventually browbeating them. 142 00:08:22,156 --> 00:08:24,276 Speaker 3: I hate to say that. I mean, I think he 143 00:08:24,396 --> 00:08:27,116 Speaker 3: was charming at first, but then he got down to business, like, 144 00:08:27,236 --> 00:08:29,876 Speaker 3: you know, you need to take this product out of 145 00:08:29,916 --> 00:08:33,756 Speaker 3: your cereal or I'm gonna, you know, come forth with 146 00:08:33,316 --> 00:08:36,796 Speaker 3: the big ad, you know, And he did it, and 147 00:08:36,836 --> 00:08:38,996 Speaker 3: he got them to take the product out. They were, 148 00:08:39,116 --> 00:08:41,476 Speaker 3: I'm sure very surprised. They called him, you know, David 149 00:08:41,516 --> 00:08:45,396 Speaker 3: and Goliath. He's the little David taking on these big 150 00:08:45,516 --> 00:08:48,196 Speaker 3: food companies. He loved that that they said that about him. 151 00:08:49,716 --> 00:08:54,716 Speaker 2: Then it happens, and maybe it was inevitable. Phil Sokoloff 152 00:08:54,836 --> 00:08:58,436 Speaker 2: goes after McDonald's, the biggest prize of them all. 153 00:08:58,756 --> 00:09:01,276 Speaker 5: A full page newspaper ad that ran in many parts 154 00:09:01,316 --> 00:09:03,196 Speaker 5: of the country yesterday is giving new meaning to the 155 00:09:03,236 --> 00:09:04,276 Speaker 5: term big mac attack. 156 00:09:04,996 --> 00:09:09,076 Speaker 2: They've been cooking their fries in beef tallow animal fat, 157 00:09:09,236 --> 00:09:10,956 Speaker 2: decides they have to stop. 158 00:09:11,196 --> 00:09:14,076 Speaker 5: The ad is headlined the Poisoning of America and it 159 00:09:14,116 --> 00:09:17,316 Speaker 5: accuses McDonald's of selling burgers and fries that are loaded 160 00:09:17,316 --> 00:09:20,556 Speaker 5: with fat. McDonald's denies the charges in the ad, which 161 00:09:20,596 --> 00:09:24,556 Speaker 5: it calls reckless, misleading, and intended to scare rather than informed. 162 00:09:24,996 --> 00:09:27,796 Speaker 2: Sokoloff is all over the media, the lone guy from 163 00:09:27,836 --> 00:09:31,316 Speaker 2: Omaha up against the mightiest fast food company in history. 164 00:09:31,756 --> 00:09:33,076 Speaker 2: It's riveting live TV. 165 00:09:33,516 --> 00:09:35,676 Speaker 5: Phil Sokoloff is the man who places the ad. He's 166 00:09:35,676 --> 00:09:38,036 Speaker 5: a Nebraska businessman and the president of his group, which 167 00:09:38,036 --> 00:09:39,876 Speaker 5: he calls the National Heart Savers Association. 168 00:09:40,316 --> 00:09:42,196 Speaker 2: Here he is on Good Morning America. 169 00:09:42,316 --> 00:09:44,716 Speaker 5: Also with us is Dick Starman, his senior vice president 170 00:09:44,916 --> 00:09:47,276 Speaker 5: of McDonald's. Gentlemen, good morning to both of you, Maritans. 171 00:09:47,316 --> 00:09:49,276 Speaker 5: And we're really on the same site. We just go 172 00:09:49,356 --> 00:09:49,716 Speaker 5: about it. 173 00:09:49,716 --> 00:09:50,796 Speaker 6: They're on the same site. 174 00:09:50,796 --> 00:09:53,356 Speaker 5: And exactly, I don't want people to eat your hamburgers, 175 00:09:53,356 --> 00:09:55,716 Speaker 5: they're too fat, but we want people to eat lean, browerboth. 176 00:09:55,796 --> 00:09:57,996 Speaker 5: I'm concerned about diet and healthy food. 177 00:09:58,476 --> 00:10:02,436 Speaker 2: America is watching and mighty McDonald's and the giant killer 178 00:10:02,476 --> 00:10:06,636 Speaker 2: from Omaha are going at it tooth and nail. Sokoloff shouts, 179 00:10:06,836 --> 00:10:09,156 Speaker 2: that's not true. Your fries are cooked in at on 180 00:10:09,196 --> 00:10:12,876 Speaker 2: the fat the McDonald's guy gets flustered, tries to say something. 181 00:10:13,236 --> 00:10:15,036 Speaker 2: Sokoloff doesn't let him finish. 182 00:10:15,796 --> 00:10:20,676 Speaker 6: Vegetable and they are beef Tello or a mere company. 183 00:10:20,876 --> 00:10:21,956 Speaker 6: It's what do we have it now? 184 00:10:23,156 --> 00:10:25,196 Speaker 3: Pople send all of our red just took. 185 00:10:24,996 --> 00:10:28,556 Speaker 5: Out chicken skin out of their chicken McNugget three weeks ago. 186 00:10:28,716 --> 00:10:30,236 Speaker 6: Tell them about the egg mcmuffins. 187 00:10:30,236 --> 00:10:32,596 Speaker 5: Tell them about your the beef tallow and your French rice. 188 00:10:32,636 --> 00:10:34,156 Speaker 1: Tell and on it goes. 189 00:10:35,996 --> 00:10:39,956 Speaker 2: McDonald's calls in lawyers. They send threatening letters to newspapers 190 00:10:40,196 --> 00:10:42,756 Speaker 2: warning them not to run any more of Sokoloff's ads, 191 00:10:43,156 --> 00:10:46,396 Speaker 2: But that just winds up Socoloff even more. He loves 192 00:10:46,436 --> 00:10:48,956 Speaker 2: a good fight, so he runs another round of ads, 193 00:10:49,316 --> 00:10:54,236 Speaker 2: and finally McDonald's surrenders. July twenty third, nineteen ninety, they 194 00:10:54,276 --> 00:10:59,276 Speaker 2: quietly announced no more beef Tello. Just recently, I got 195 00:10:59,316 --> 00:11:02,396 Speaker 2: in contact with Dick Starman, the McDonald's executive who went 196 00:11:02,436 --> 00:11:04,396 Speaker 2: toe to toe with Bill Soakoloff. 197 00:11:03,916 --> 00:11:04,596 Speaker 1: On Network TV. 198 00:11:05,356 --> 00:11:09,116 Speaker 2: I wanted to know what happened inside McDonald's headquarters after 199 00:11:09,236 --> 00:11:11,716 Speaker 2: Socoloff came at them. Did they have a picture of 200 00:11:11,796 --> 00:11:13,956 Speaker 2: him with a bull's eye on it? How was it 201 00:11:13,996 --> 00:11:17,996 Speaker 2: that a company making mass produced milkshakes, hamburgers, and deep 202 00:11:18,036 --> 00:11:21,396 Speaker 2: fried potatoes was somehow sensitive to the charge that they 203 00:11:21,396 --> 00:11:25,236 Speaker 2: were making unhealthy food that kind of thing. He didn't 204 00:11:25,236 --> 00:11:27,996 Speaker 2: want to talk. Maybe it's still a sore point after 205 00:11:28,076 --> 00:11:31,876 Speaker 2: all these years. All we know is McDonald's gave in. 206 00:11:32,636 --> 00:11:35,996 Speaker 2: They folded, and once they folded, everyone else did too. 207 00:11:36,916 --> 00:11:39,556 Speaker 2: Wendy's announced they were going with one hundred percent corn oil. 208 00:11:40,156 --> 00:11:42,956 Speaker 2: Burger King said they would switch to cottonseed in soybean. 209 00:11:43,676 --> 00:11:47,036 Speaker 3: I look at my dad as being a powerful man, 210 00:11:47,076 --> 00:11:49,636 Speaker 3: and it was like, whenever I was with him, was 211 00:11:49,676 --> 00:11:52,516 Speaker 3: like I knew nothing bad would happened to me. He 212 00:11:52,556 --> 00:11:55,436 Speaker 3: was just like kept me safe. You know. I think 213 00:11:55,756 --> 00:11:59,236 Speaker 3: girls tend to think that about their dads anyway, but 214 00:11:59,596 --> 00:12:01,036 Speaker 3: he was. He was powerful. 215 00:12:05,196 --> 00:12:09,076 Speaker 2: Because this has consequences for all of us, I feel 216 00:12:09,236 --> 00:12:14,116 Speaker 2: I have to go back to the beginning. It all 217 00:12:14,156 --> 00:12:17,076 Speaker 2: starts with a man named Ray Kroc. He made his 218 00:12:17,116 --> 00:12:20,796 Speaker 2: living selling the five spindle multi mixer milkshake machine out 219 00:12:20,796 --> 00:12:24,756 Speaker 2: of Chicago, and in nineteen fifty four he began hearing 220 00:12:24,796 --> 00:12:29,476 Speaker 2: about a hamburger stand in San Bernardino, California. This particular 221 00:12:29,556 --> 00:12:32,396 Speaker 2: restaurant he was told had no fewer than eight of 222 00:12:32,476 --> 00:12:35,716 Speaker 2: his machines in operation, meaning that it could make forty 223 00:12:35,796 --> 00:12:40,716 Speaker 2: milkshakes simultaneously. He couldn't believe that. He flew from Chicago 224 00:12:40,756 --> 00:12:44,756 Speaker 2: to Los Angeles and drove to San Bernardino, sixty miles away, 225 00:12:44,956 --> 00:12:48,196 Speaker 2: and sat in his car and just watched one happy customer. 226 00:12:48,236 --> 00:12:51,836 Speaker 2: After another drive up, he goes up to a blonde 227 00:12:51,836 --> 00:12:54,596 Speaker 2: and a yellow convertible and says, how often do you 228 00:12:54,636 --> 00:12:58,636 Speaker 2: come here? And she says anytime I'm in the neighborhood. 229 00:12:59,076 --> 00:13:03,556 Speaker 2: He realizes people are addicted. Next morning, he goes back 230 00:13:03,556 --> 00:13:07,276 Speaker 2: and sits inside the kitchen, watching every move everyone there makes, 231 00:13:07,516 --> 00:13:11,876 Speaker 2: the griddle man, the food prepared, everything done with military precision, 232 00:13:12,636 --> 00:13:15,836 Speaker 2: and suddenly he has this vision of restaurants just like 233 00:13:15,916 --> 00:13:20,836 Speaker 2: this all around the world. So he asks the two 234 00:13:20,836 --> 00:13:23,316 Speaker 2: brothers who owned the place if he could buy their 235 00:13:23,356 --> 00:13:27,756 Speaker 2: franchise rights. They said yes. Their names, of course, Dick 236 00:13:27,916 --> 00:13:32,476 Speaker 2: and mac McDonald. Now why is Raycroc so smitten with 237 00:13:32,556 --> 00:13:36,076 Speaker 2: McDonald's Not because of the burger. The burger is fine, 238 00:13:36,516 --> 00:13:39,796 Speaker 2: but it's not any different from burgers anywhere else. It's 239 00:13:39,836 --> 00:13:43,476 Speaker 2: because of the fries. Raycroc can't believe how good. They 240 00:13:43,516 --> 00:13:47,916 Speaker 2: are golden brown, crispy on the outside, light and fluffy 241 00:13:47,956 --> 00:13:52,076 Speaker 2: on the inside. Let me quote to you from Kroc's autobiography, 242 00:13:52,516 --> 00:13:57,236 Speaker 2: the crucial passage. To most people, a french fried potato 243 00:13:57,436 --> 00:14:01,876 Speaker 2: is a pretty uninspiring object. It's fodder, something to kill time, 244 00:14:01,956 --> 00:14:06,156 Speaker 2: chewing between bites of hamburger and swallows of milkshake. That's 245 00:14:06,356 --> 00:14:10,436 Speaker 2: your ordinary French fry. The mc donald's French fry was 246 00:14:10,476 --> 00:14:13,836 Speaker 2: in an entirely different league. They lavished attention on it. 247 00:14:14,356 --> 00:14:17,996 Speaker 2: I didn't know it then, but one day I would too. 248 00:14:18,156 --> 00:14:21,916 Speaker 2: The French fry would become almost sacrisanct to me, its 249 00:14:21,996 --> 00:14:28,236 Speaker 2: preparation a ritual to be followed religiously. The McDonald's brothers 250 00:14:28,316 --> 00:14:32,436 Speaker 2: used top quality eight ounce Idaho Russets peeled soaked in 251 00:14:32,516 --> 00:14:35,236 Speaker 2: cold water, then deep fried in something Crock would come 252 00:14:35,276 --> 00:14:38,276 Speaker 2: to call Formula forty seven, which was a special beef 253 00:14:38,316 --> 00:14:46,116 Speaker 2: tallow mix. Formula forty seven was what's called a hard fat. 254 00:14:46,556 --> 00:14:49,396 Speaker 2: Butter is a hard fat lard, which is pork fat 255 00:14:49,596 --> 00:14:53,956 Speaker 2: is a hard fat. Hard fats are saturated fats. From 256 00:14:54,036 --> 00:14:57,676 Speaker 2: time immemorial, practically every culture in the world has used 257 00:14:57,676 --> 00:15:01,436 Speaker 2: hard fats for baking and cooking For good reason. Hard 258 00:15:01,476 --> 00:15:05,076 Speaker 2: fats are stable, they don't undergo strange chemical changes when 259 00:15:05,076 --> 00:15:08,916 Speaker 2: they're heated, and they're thick and creamy, not oily and fluid, 260 00:15:09,156 --> 00:15:12,836 Speaker 2: which makes a big difference. You put butter on a 261 00:15:12,836 --> 00:15:15,716 Speaker 2: slice of bread, it stays nice and thick on the surface. 262 00:15:16,036 --> 00:15:18,476 Speaker 2: You put vegetable oil on bread and the next thing 263 00:15:18,516 --> 00:15:23,436 Speaker 2: you know, your nice, firm slices turned to mush When 264 00:15:23,516 --> 00:15:26,196 Speaker 2: Nibisco took saturated fat out of the creamy middle of 265 00:15:26,196 --> 00:15:28,396 Speaker 2: the Oreo cookie. The R and D was like the 266 00:15:28,436 --> 00:15:33,156 Speaker 2: Apollo space program. The greatest mines in food engineering had 267 00:15:33,196 --> 00:15:35,036 Speaker 2: to sit down and try and figure out how to 268 00:15:35,116 --> 00:15:38,396 Speaker 2: keep the white part from turning into a slippery, oily mass. 269 00:15:40,596 --> 00:15:43,516 Speaker 2: When Ray Kroc said that the French fry was sacrisanc 270 00:15:43,596 --> 00:15:46,276 Speaker 2: to him, what he meant was that every element of 271 00:15:46,316 --> 00:15:50,756 Speaker 2: its preparation was chosen for a reason, chosen because it 272 00:15:50,836 --> 00:15:58,476 Speaker 2: made for the optimal French fry experience. Kroc has a 273 00:15:58,516 --> 00:16:00,836 Speaker 2: line in his autobiography where he talks about how the 274 00:16:00,916 --> 00:16:03,556 Speaker 2: McDonald's brothers taught him never to cook French fries in 275 00:16:03,636 --> 00:16:06,316 Speaker 2: fat that had been previously used to cook anything else 276 00:16:06,676 --> 00:16:10,116 Speaker 2: like fried chicken, any restaurant will deny it, he writes, 277 00:16:10,316 --> 00:16:13,796 Speaker 2: but almost all of them do it. But Croc he listened, 278 00:16:14,156 --> 00:16:16,116 Speaker 2: and right from the beginning he put his foot down 279 00:16:16,396 --> 00:16:19,676 Speaker 2: there would be no cross contamination of the McDonald's cooking oil. 280 00:16:20,316 --> 00:16:23,756 Speaker 2: That's someone who truly cares about French fries. That's the 281 00:16:23,876 --> 00:16:28,556 Speaker 2: legacy he created under the golden arches. And then all 282 00:16:28,596 --> 00:16:31,556 Speaker 2: of a sudden, this random guy from Omaha puts a 283 00:16:31,596 --> 00:16:38,916 Speaker 2: gun to McDonald's head and says, change or else. McDonald's 284 00:16:38,996 --> 00:16:41,716 Speaker 2: challenge was to find a way to replace a hard 285 00:16:41,756 --> 00:16:45,756 Speaker 2: fat with a liquid fat, and liquid fats are less 286 00:16:45,756 --> 00:16:49,116 Speaker 2: than ideal in a deep frier. That's problem number one. 287 00:16:49,236 --> 00:16:52,516 Speaker 2: The first replacement oil in McDonald's experiments with is a 288 00:16:52,516 --> 00:16:55,636 Speaker 2: cottonseed in corn oil blend, but that turns out to 289 00:16:55,636 --> 00:16:58,516 Speaker 2: be really high in something called trans fat, and it's 290 00:16:58,556 --> 00:17:02,636 Speaker 2: not long before everyone realizes that trans fats are way, way, 291 00:17:02,756 --> 00:17:06,116 Speaker 2: way worse few than animal fats. It's not even close. 292 00:17:06,836 --> 00:17:10,156 Speaker 2: So in two thousand and two, McDonald's change the oils again, 293 00:17:10,436 --> 00:17:13,956 Speaker 2: cutting the trans fat in half. Six years later they 294 00:17:14,036 --> 00:17:16,396 Speaker 2: have to switch yet again, this time to get rid 295 00:17:16,396 --> 00:17:19,916 Speaker 2: of all the trans fat. Then there's a problem that 296 00:17:20,036 --> 00:17:23,716 Speaker 2: vegetable oils aren't nearly as stable as hard fats. All 297 00:17:23,796 --> 00:17:26,116 Speaker 2: kinds of nasty things happen when you heat them up. 298 00:17:26,716 --> 00:17:29,556 Speaker 2: The deep frier suddenly becomes a kind of witches cauldron 299 00:17:29,876 --> 00:17:31,636 Speaker 2: spewing dangerous elements. 300 00:17:31,956 --> 00:17:34,956 Speaker 4: There's a big cloud of electrons there and it can 301 00:17:35,036 --> 00:17:37,596 Speaker 4: react with the oxygen that might be present in the 302 00:17:37,676 --> 00:17:39,276 Speaker 4: oil or above the surface. 303 00:17:39,836 --> 00:17:43,396 Speaker 2: Gerald McNeil, he's global vice president for fats, oil and 304 00:17:43,516 --> 00:17:47,596 Speaker 2: Nutrition for Lotus Croklin, a big multinational. He's part of 305 00:17:47,596 --> 00:17:48,756 Speaker 2: big cooking oil. 306 00:17:49,156 --> 00:17:51,996 Speaker 4: And that will start degrading the oil very rapidly, and 307 00:17:52,396 --> 00:17:56,676 Speaker 4: certainly the breakdown products have a lot of aldehydes as 308 00:17:56,716 --> 00:18:04,156 Speaker 4: a byproduct, and aldehydes they attack the proteins and DNA 309 00:18:04,276 --> 00:18:05,156 Speaker 4: you know in our bodies. 310 00:18:06,356 --> 00:18:08,196 Speaker 2: You don't really want to know what the current thinking 311 00:18:08,276 --> 00:18:11,756 Speaker 2: is on aldehydes, trust me, but in case you do, 312 00:18:12,476 --> 00:18:18,036 Speaker 2: it's a l D e hydes. Google that and the 313 00:18:18,076 --> 00:18:21,116 Speaker 2: words scary. 314 00:18:21,276 --> 00:18:25,756 Speaker 4: So while the big companies that are touting probably unsaturated 315 00:18:25,836 --> 00:18:28,716 Speaker 4: or else and saying they're healthy, well, as soon as 316 00:18:28,756 --> 00:18:30,756 Speaker 4: you put them in a fryer, it's the last thing 317 00:18:30,756 --> 00:18:31,396 Speaker 4: you want to eat. 318 00:18:32,476 --> 00:18:35,596 Speaker 2: Crazy stories when around the industry, as the fast food 319 00:18:35,636 --> 00:18:38,156 Speaker 2: chain struggle to figure out how to make these vegetable 320 00:18:38,156 --> 00:18:41,316 Speaker 2: oil mixes work. Turns out that after a lot of frying, 321 00:18:41,436 --> 00:18:43,316 Speaker 2: a kind of paint would form in the fryer. 322 00:18:43,916 --> 00:18:46,276 Speaker 4: And what happens is it breaks down in the fryer 323 00:18:47,076 --> 00:18:49,876 Speaker 4: and then you know, fumes come out and it goes 324 00:18:49,876 --> 00:18:53,676 Speaker 4: all around the restaurant, let's say in McDonald's, and the 325 00:18:53,796 --> 00:18:57,436 Speaker 4: surface of the furniture is sticky because this stuff that 326 00:18:57,476 --> 00:18:59,516 Speaker 4: they call a mist, you know, comes out because of 327 00:18:59,516 --> 00:19:00,596 Speaker 4: the breakdown products. 328 00:19:00,836 --> 00:19:03,756 Speaker 2: The myst gets on everything, including the uniforms of the 329 00:19:03,756 --> 00:19:07,596 Speaker 2: fry station workers, which creates a nightmare when the overalls 330 00:19:07,636 --> 00:19:08,876 Speaker 2: have to be laundered. 331 00:19:08,716 --> 00:19:11,876 Speaker 4: And they went into the truck, you know, to go 332 00:19:11,916 --> 00:19:16,396 Speaker 4: off to be cleaned. Sometimes just by piling the coats 333 00:19:16,436 --> 00:19:21,236 Speaker 4: on top of each other, those coats would spontaneously combust 334 00:19:21,316 --> 00:19:24,836 Speaker 4: and go on fire. Because the breakdown products from the 335 00:19:24,836 --> 00:19:27,956 Speaker 4: oil were highly flammable. 336 00:19:28,156 --> 00:19:35,036 Speaker 2: They would spontaneously combust. The point is that this is 337 00:19:35,076 --> 00:19:38,596 Speaker 2: not some trivial matter. It's not if you order a 338 00:19:38,636 --> 00:19:41,636 Speaker 2: fried egg in a restaurant, you don't stipulate the medium 339 00:19:41,636 --> 00:19:43,436 Speaker 2: in which you would like the egg to be cooked. 340 00:19:43,996 --> 00:19:46,276 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter that much. A fried egg is a 341 00:19:46,316 --> 00:19:49,156 Speaker 2: fried egg. But think for a moment about what a 342 00:19:49,196 --> 00:19:52,596 Speaker 2: French fry is. You start with a potato, and a 343 00:19:52,636 --> 00:19:56,356 Speaker 2: potato is basically starch and water, maybe eighty percent water. 344 00:19:56,916 --> 00:19:59,716 Speaker 2: You plunge the potato into a vat of cooking oil, 345 00:19:59,996 --> 00:20:02,676 Speaker 2: and the heat of the oil turns the water inside 346 00:20:02,676 --> 00:20:06,356 Speaker 2: the potato into steam. That steam is the key to 347 00:20:06,396 --> 00:20:09,716 Speaker 2: the fry. First, it makes the heart hard starch of 348 00:20:09,756 --> 00:20:13,556 Speaker 2: the potato swell and soften, which is why the interior 349 00:20:13,596 --> 00:20:16,236 Speaker 2: of a fry is so fluffy and light. At the 350 00:20:16,236 --> 00:20:19,836 Speaker 2: same time, the steam rising from inside the fry keeps 351 00:20:19,836 --> 00:20:22,556 Speaker 2: the cooking oil on the surface of the fry instead 352 00:20:22,596 --> 00:20:25,316 Speaker 2: of seeping into the middle. That's why a fry is 353 00:20:25,356 --> 00:20:31,156 Speaker 2: brown and crisp on the outside. Elizabeth Rosen once whatt 354 00:20:31,196 --> 00:20:34,316 Speaker 2: a great book called The Primal Cheeseburger, where she calls 355 00:20:34,356 --> 00:20:37,836 Speaker 2: the French fry the quote near perfect enactment of the 356 00:20:37,916 --> 00:20:41,276 Speaker 2: enriching of a starch food with oil or fat. And 357 00:20:41,316 --> 00:20:45,356 Speaker 2: she's absolutely right. You can add fat to potatoes without 358 00:20:45,396 --> 00:20:48,676 Speaker 2: deep frying. That's called mashed potatoes. But at the end 359 00:20:48,716 --> 00:20:52,716 Speaker 2: of the day, mashed potatoes are just mush. They don't 360 00:20:52,716 --> 00:20:55,796 Speaker 2: have that crucial contrast between the fluffy and the crispy. 361 00:20:56,676 --> 00:20:59,396 Speaker 2: The point is that the oil in which you deep 362 00:20:59,436 --> 00:21:02,436 Speaker 2: fry the French fry is not incidental to the creation 363 00:21:02,556 --> 00:21:06,156 Speaker 2: of the French fry. A French fry is by definition 364 00:21:06,516 --> 00:21:09,476 Speaker 2: a potato derivative in which the water has has been 365 00:21:09,556 --> 00:21:13,196 Speaker 2: replaced with fat. The fat is as much a constituent 366 00:21:13,276 --> 00:21:16,316 Speaker 2: of the French fry as the potato. So when you 367 00:21:16,436 --> 00:21:19,676 Speaker 2: change the oil in a French fry from hard to liquid, 368 00:21:19,716 --> 00:21:25,436 Speaker 2: fat from saturated to unsaturated, you change the French fry. 369 00:21:25,556 --> 00:21:30,476 Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety, McDonald started serving us a different product. 370 00:21:34,076 --> 00:21:36,516 Speaker 2: That's why I had to go to the food scientists 371 00:21:36,796 --> 00:21:37,396 Speaker 2: at Matson. 372 00:21:38,316 --> 00:21:40,836 Speaker 7: So we're here in what we call the Matson Food Lab, 373 00:21:41,596 --> 00:21:45,716 Speaker 7: and we are getting ready to fry some French fries, 374 00:21:45,876 --> 00:21:47,476 Speaker 7: and so we have a standard. 375 00:21:47,516 --> 00:21:49,876 Speaker 2: When you walk into Matson, you think you're at an 376 00:21:49,876 --> 00:21:53,076 Speaker 2: accounting firm. There's a lot of beige carpeting and a 377 00:21:53,076 --> 00:21:56,516 Speaker 2: big bland conference room. Then you go down the corridor 378 00:21:56,796 --> 00:21:59,316 Speaker 2: and you see lots of people in white coats. You 379 00:21:59,396 --> 00:22:01,756 Speaker 2: turn a corner and start to smell all kinds of 380 00:22:01,796 --> 00:22:04,876 Speaker 2: strange things. All of a sudden, you're in a big 381 00:22:05,036 --> 00:22:08,396 Speaker 2: kitchen with lots of little beakers and weapons, great appliances. 382 00:22:09,196 --> 00:22:11,116 Speaker 2: On the day I was there, they were testing some 383 00:22:11,236 --> 00:22:14,636 Speaker 2: plant based milk prototypes. They had them all out on 384 00:22:14,676 --> 00:22:17,356 Speaker 2: the counter in little cups. I got to sample them. 385 00:22:17,756 --> 00:22:19,916 Speaker 2: There was one in particular with a nut flavor that 386 00:22:20,036 --> 00:22:21,036 Speaker 2: was kind of fantastic. 387 00:22:21,196 --> 00:22:24,036 Speaker 3: Carf fried and power and then beef. 388 00:22:24,076 --> 00:22:26,916 Speaker 2: Tello Matson agreed to stage a taste test for me. 389 00:22:27,636 --> 00:22:29,796 Speaker 2: They would get a batch of frozen fries from the 390 00:22:29,836 --> 00:22:32,796 Speaker 2: same suppliers that the fast food chains use and they 391 00:22:32,796 --> 00:22:35,316 Speaker 2: would cook them in vegetable oil, just how they cooked 392 00:22:35,316 --> 00:22:37,956 Speaker 2: them in a McDonald's. They would also do a pre 393 00:22:38,116 --> 00:22:41,396 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety French fry cooked in something as close as 394 00:22:41,436 --> 00:22:44,556 Speaker 2: they can fined to formula forty seven, so I would 395 00:22:44,556 --> 00:22:47,916 Speaker 2: get a chance to compare the contemporary French fry with 396 00:22:48,036 --> 00:22:51,596 Speaker 2: something no McDonald's customer has tasted in a generation. 397 00:22:52,356 --> 00:22:57,316 Speaker 7: So we have a standard food service to bay fryer. 398 00:22:57,676 --> 00:23:00,716 Speaker 2: Do you know what temperature were frying at, by the way. 399 00:23:00,756 --> 00:23:04,396 Speaker 7: Three sixty three fifty And what we've done in advance 400 00:23:04,396 --> 00:23:07,116 Speaker 7: of you coming here is we filled the bins with 401 00:23:07,516 --> 00:23:10,196 Speaker 7: oil or tallow that's. 402 00:23:09,996 --> 00:23:13,876 Speaker 2: Barb Stucky, co President of Matson. I met her years 403 00:23:13,916 --> 00:23:16,116 Speaker 2: ago when Matson was running a contest to create the 404 00:23:16,156 --> 00:23:21,516 Speaker 2: world's healthiest cookie. Stucky's short, blonde hair, high energy. If 405 00:23:21,516 --> 00:23:24,236 Speaker 2: she were a basketball player, they would say, she's. 406 00:23:24,036 --> 00:23:27,836 Speaker 1: Got a motor. Where did you get your talent? And 407 00:23:27,916 --> 00:23:29,156 Speaker 1: how did you choose your talo? 408 00:23:30,276 --> 00:23:30,916 Speaker 3: Very good question. 409 00:23:30,956 --> 00:23:34,076 Speaker 7: We're going to taste some because we chose it because 410 00:23:34,076 --> 00:23:37,156 Speaker 7: of the flavor. We wanted to kind of go back 411 00:23:37,196 --> 00:23:39,756 Speaker 7: in time with you, So we tried to find the 412 00:23:39,836 --> 00:23:44,156 Speaker 7: tallo that we thought had the beefiest flavor, which would 413 00:23:44,156 --> 00:23:47,076 Speaker 7: be probably the closest thing to what McDonald started with. 414 00:23:47,316 --> 00:23:51,236 Speaker 7: So I sent Paolo to the local Mexican market right 415 00:23:51,316 --> 00:23:54,236 Speaker 7: up the street, and we found a tallo there that 416 00:23:54,276 --> 00:23:56,796 Speaker 7: has a really nice, rich, beefy flavor. 417 00:23:57,316 --> 00:23:59,836 Speaker 2: Paolo is Paolo Beltrin, who's going to be one of 418 00:23:59,836 --> 00:24:04,196 Speaker 2: our fry chefs, along with another Matson specialist, Kathy Westfall. 419 00:24:05,036 --> 00:24:08,236 Speaker 2: The fourth person in the room is Justin Shimmick, who 420 00:24:08,316 --> 00:24:11,196 Speaker 2: runs the company along with Stucky. We've gone old school 421 00:24:11,196 --> 00:24:14,436 Speaker 2: with our talo, very old school exactly. The plan is 422 00:24:14,476 --> 00:24:18,156 Speaker 2: to use pre frozen Russet Burbank potatoes. They're a little 423 00:24:18,196 --> 00:24:21,516 Speaker 2: lower in water content than other potato varieties seventy seven 424 00:24:21,556 --> 00:24:24,796 Speaker 2: to eighty percent water, which is a defense against sogginess. 425 00:24:25,556 --> 00:24:26,236 Speaker 1: Three batches. 426 00:24:26,836 --> 00:24:29,716 Speaker 2: One batch fried twice in vegetable oils, just like the 427 00:24:29,756 --> 00:24:32,916 Speaker 2: fries you get in McDonald's today. The second batch a 428 00:24:33,036 --> 00:24:36,356 Speaker 2: mix fried once in vegetable oil, then a second time 429 00:24:36,396 --> 00:24:40,436 Speaker 2: in beef tallow, and the third batch old school, fried 430 00:24:40,476 --> 00:24:43,676 Speaker 2: both times in beef tallow. The fries I tasted at 431 00:24:43,716 --> 00:24:45,956 Speaker 2: thirteen the ones that blew my mind. 432 00:24:46,276 --> 00:24:47,836 Speaker 1: The first fry was three minutes. 433 00:24:48,076 --> 00:24:54,356 Speaker 2: The first fire was three minutes. Yeah, it's hard to 434 00:24:54,396 --> 00:24:57,396 Speaker 2: describe what the matt Knights are like. In one sense, 435 00:24:57,516 --> 00:25:00,956 Speaker 2: they're foodies, although that word suggests a kind of sybaritic, 436 00:25:01,076 --> 00:25:04,876 Speaker 2: slightly decadent approach to food, smacking their lips and tucking 437 00:25:04,876 --> 00:25:07,636 Speaker 2: into something fantastic and telling you about that time they 438 00:25:07,676 --> 00:25:10,276 Speaker 2: had barbecue in Kazakhstan. I was out of this world. 439 00:25:11,076 --> 00:25:15,476 Speaker 2: That's not how the Matt's Night's talk about food. They're dispassionate, objective, 440 00:25:16,036 --> 00:25:19,796 Speaker 2: oddly specific. When Stucky, Shimmick, and I retreated back to 441 00:25:19,876 --> 00:25:22,436 Speaker 2: the conference room to wait for the French fly samples 442 00:25:22,436 --> 00:25:25,276 Speaker 2: to be cooked, Stucky started talking about a restaurant should 443 00:25:25,356 --> 00:25:26,076 Speaker 2: just eatn at. 444 00:25:26,436 --> 00:25:28,796 Speaker 7: So I had a tomato soup last night that had 445 00:25:28,876 --> 00:25:33,556 Speaker 7: rosemary in it, and the rosemary was so high it 446 00:25:33,716 --> 00:25:41,196 Speaker 7: tasted like a Christmas tree soup. It was I couldn't 447 00:25:41,396 --> 00:25:43,236 Speaker 7: eat it, And all I could think was if we 448 00:25:43,276 --> 00:25:47,196 Speaker 7: were in the lab at the bench top, all of 449 00:25:47,236 --> 00:25:50,396 Speaker 7: my colleagues would have caught this, that the rosemary is 450 00:25:50,436 --> 00:25:50,876 Speaker 7: too high. 451 00:25:51,436 --> 00:25:53,316 Speaker 1: Wait did you were you? 452 00:25:53,196 --> 00:25:53,236 Speaker 4: You? 453 00:25:53,316 --> 00:25:56,236 Speaker 1: Who you having to get with you friends? Did any 454 00:25:56,276 --> 00:25:59,316 Speaker 1: of them have the tomato soup? Yes? 455 00:25:59,476 --> 00:26:00,116 Speaker 3: I don't think so. 456 00:26:01,276 --> 00:26:03,916 Speaker 2: The rosemary was so high that it tasted like a 457 00:26:04,036 --> 00:26:08,556 Speaker 2: Christmas tree, Like a Christmas tree. That's so great. We 458 00:26:08,556 --> 00:26:10,996 Speaker 2: weren't sitting for more than a few minutes when the 459 00:26:10,996 --> 00:26:12,596 Speaker 2: door to the conference room opened. 460 00:26:12,956 --> 00:26:15,036 Speaker 1: All right, oh wow, look at this. Here we are. 461 00:26:16,676 --> 00:26:17,876 Speaker 1: This is major excitement. 462 00:26:19,956 --> 00:26:22,716 Speaker 2: The mats and chefs had the batches in identical metal 463 00:26:22,756 --> 00:26:26,876 Speaker 2: mesh baskets. Each was identified only by number seventy five 464 00:26:27,276 --> 00:26:31,316 Speaker 2: one eight, six thirty seven. The taste test was blinded. 465 00:26:31,676 --> 00:26:33,516 Speaker 2: We had no idea which fry was which. 466 00:26:34,036 --> 00:26:41,956 Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna start with you so six thirty seven. Ooh. 467 00:26:42,076 --> 00:26:45,556 Speaker 8: As a century professional, we're not supposed to do you 468 00:26:45,636 --> 00:26:48,116 Speaker 8: have anything away or saying anything I have a hard 469 00:26:48,156 --> 00:26:48,716 Speaker 8: time doing this. 470 00:26:50,636 --> 00:26:58,956 Speaker 9: That's a I'm sorry, that's amazing, You're a bad How 471 00:26:59,076 --> 00:27:00,956 Speaker 9: is that not great? 472 00:27:02,436 --> 00:27:04,796 Speaker 2: The baskets of fries were on the conference table in 473 00:27:04,796 --> 00:27:07,916 Speaker 2: front of me. Everyone else had gathered around. These were 474 00:27:07,956 --> 00:27:10,276 Speaker 2: people who make and can assume some of the world's 475 00:27:10,276 --> 00:27:13,716 Speaker 2: most exotic prepared foods for a living. You'd think they 476 00:27:13,756 --> 00:27:16,476 Speaker 2: would be jaded, but they weren't. They were on it 477 00:27:16,916 --> 00:27:19,796 Speaker 2: and me My head was spinning. I was in heaven. 478 00:27:20,196 --> 00:27:21,996 Speaker 2: It was all I could do to keep the rigorous 479 00:27:22,036 --> 00:27:25,036 Speaker 2: objectivity necessary for a valid blind taste test? 480 00:27:25,516 --> 00:27:29,036 Speaker 1: What are you tasting with? The first one? Six thirty seven? 481 00:27:32,236 --> 00:27:37,196 Speaker 8: Texture in six thirty seven is shatteringly crisp. It's amazing, 482 00:27:37,876 --> 00:27:39,156 Speaker 8: perfect French frie texture. 483 00:27:39,596 --> 00:27:43,716 Speaker 1: It's wild yea Chewett's spungey crisp. 484 00:27:43,396 --> 00:27:46,596 Speaker 8: But there's no hole in the middle, and it's it's 485 00:27:46,716 --> 00:27:49,956 Speaker 8: nice and fluffy in the middle. They're like perfect French 486 00:27:49,996 --> 00:27:53,476 Speaker 8: fries and they have a lot of flavor. 487 00:27:54,356 --> 00:27:56,556 Speaker 1: All right, seventy five? How do you feel? It's seventy five? 488 00:27:56,636 --> 00:27:57,076 Speaker 1: Number two? 489 00:27:57,756 --> 00:28:01,516 Speaker 2: Nobody was interested. In seventy five they were oily, not crispy, 490 00:28:01,836 --> 00:28:02,956 Speaker 2: almost sodden. 491 00:28:03,036 --> 00:28:06,556 Speaker 8: Plant just mac. 492 00:28:10,116 --> 00:28:10,516 Speaker 1: All right. 493 00:28:10,636 --> 00:28:17,076 Speaker 3: Next one, the surface is really porous. There's a lot 494 00:28:17,116 --> 00:28:19,076 Speaker 3: of oil squirts out when you bite into it. 495 00:28:20,076 --> 00:28:24,676 Speaker 2: Three batches of fries prepared according to the same exacting specifications, 496 00:28:24,956 --> 00:28:28,436 Speaker 2: but two were entirely forgotten and we didn't have to 497 00:28:28,516 --> 00:28:31,196 Speaker 2: be told what kind they were. They were what the 498 00:28:31,236 --> 00:28:33,636 Speaker 2: fast food world has been passing off as a French 499 00:28:33,676 --> 00:28:37,156 Speaker 2: fry for the past quarter century. But the third batch, 500 00:28:37,796 --> 00:28:41,756 Speaker 2: six point thirty seven, to die for. That was the 501 00:28:41,796 --> 00:28:44,796 Speaker 2: old school fry, the kind of French fry that doesn't 502 00:28:44,796 --> 00:28:48,356 Speaker 2: exist anymore. We have a big win for tallow That's 503 00:28:48,396 --> 00:28:48,956 Speaker 2: what we're saying. 504 00:28:50,516 --> 00:28:51,796 Speaker 7: There's so much going on here. 505 00:28:51,836 --> 00:28:53,116 Speaker 3: Also, look at the color difference. 506 00:28:53,356 --> 00:28:58,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, those look like fries. My heart is full of 507 00:28:58,716 --> 00:29:03,636 Speaker 2: sadness again to think about how many millions and millions 508 00:29:03,636 --> 00:29:12,796 Speaker 2: and millions of people around the world have never tasted that. 509 00:29:12,796 --> 00:29:15,796 Speaker 2: That's when we brought in the millennials as a second opinion, 510 00:29:16,356 --> 00:29:19,356 Speaker 2: but also as an act of mercy, because they had 511 00:29:19,396 --> 00:29:21,516 Speaker 2: no idea that this is what a French fry could 512 00:29:21,516 --> 00:29:24,836 Speaker 2: be like, and it seemed unbearably cruel to deny them 513 00:29:24,876 --> 00:29:27,716 Speaker 2: that privilege. When a mound of six point thirty seven 514 00:29:27,836 --> 00:29:29,156 Speaker 2: was just sitting there on the table. 515 00:29:30,076 --> 00:29:31,676 Speaker 1: Can we agree with those are the best fries. We 516 00:29:31,716 --> 00:29:34,756 Speaker 1: taste it all afternoon. I don't have more. 517 00:29:39,956 --> 00:29:43,836 Speaker 2: Now do I hate Phil Sokoloff. I've thought a lot 518 00:29:43,876 --> 00:29:46,556 Speaker 2: about this in the intervening years, and I've come to 519 00:29:46,596 --> 00:29:49,996 Speaker 2: realize that I don't hate him for killing Formula forty seven. 520 00:29:50,556 --> 00:29:52,476 Speaker 2: He could have bought a yacht and a big house 521 00:29:52,516 --> 00:29:55,916 Speaker 2: in a gated community in Florida and play golf, and 522 00:29:55,996 --> 00:30:00,356 Speaker 2: you know how I feel about golf. Instead, he took 523 00:30:00,356 --> 00:30:03,596 Speaker 2: on McDonald's in an attempt to make the world a healthier, 524 00:30:03,876 --> 00:30:08,676 Speaker 2: better place. My hat is off to him. It's really 525 00:30:09,116 --> 00:30:12,836 Speaker 2: Donald's that I blame. They were custodians of a French 526 00:30:12,876 --> 00:30:17,796 Speaker 2: fry legacy. The fry was sacrosanct. Their own founder said so. 527 00:30:18,476 --> 00:30:22,076 Speaker 2: And what did they do. They rolled over, sold out 528 00:30:22,116 --> 00:30:25,116 Speaker 2: their own heritage, as if how a French fry tastes 529 00:30:25,556 --> 00:30:30,676 Speaker 2: were suddenly a secondary consideration. That's crazy. The only reason 530 00:30:30,716 --> 00:30:32,636 Speaker 2: there was an argument about fries in the first place 531 00:30:33,036 --> 00:30:35,876 Speaker 2: is that millions of people thought they were delicious. So 532 00:30:35,956 --> 00:30:39,316 Speaker 2: what do we do? We made them not delicious. Wait 533 00:30:39,316 --> 00:30:42,476 Speaker 2: a minute, I'm not done. It's worse than that. The 534 00:30:42,516 --> 00:30:46,236 Speaker 2: original fries were sold in just one size two point 535 00:30:46,236 --> 00:30:48,756 Speaker 2: four ounces. You don't need any more fries than that. 536 00:30:49,356 --> 00:30:52,836 Speaker 2: But nowadays, what's the large serving of fries at McDonald's 537 00:30:53,316 --> 00:30:56,556 Speaker 2: five point nine ounces, more than twice as big as 538 00:30:56,556 --> 00:30:59,396 Speaker 2: it used to be. So we've gone from the McDonald's 539 00:30:59,436 --> 00:31:02,556 Speaker 2: brother's original product, which gave us a modest amount of 540 00:31:02,596 --> 00:31:06,356 Speaker 2: something sublime, to a large amount of something that tastes 541 00:31:06,436 --> 00:31:07,236 Speaker 2: like cardboard. 542 00:31:07,836 --> 00:31:11,236 Speaker 3: I remember going to McDonalds and having some French fries 543 00:31:11,236 --> 00:31:13,916 Speaker 3: and going, oh, these don't taste is good because my 544 00:31:14,116 --> 00:31:17,956 Speaker 3: dad had them changed the way they were made. But 545 00:31:18,716 --> 00:31:22,116 Speaker 3: I think that's absolutely incredible that he did that. You know, 546 00:31:22,236 --> 00:31:24,996 Speaker 3: he was really he was made to do something huge, 547 00:31:25,596 --> 00:31:28,636 Speaker 3: and you know he did. He was amazing. 548 00:31:29,196 --> 00:31:34,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, what did he say? You said that, You know, 549 00:31:34,396 --> 00:31:36,716 Speaker 2: he got McDonald's to change the way they made fries 550 00:31:36,716 --> 00:31:38,716 Speaker 2: and the frieses and taste is good. What did he 551 00:31:38,796 --> 00:31:40,716 Speaker 2: say when you said that to him? Did you ever 552 00:31:40,756 --> 00:31:41,356 Speaker 2: say that to him? 553 00:31:41,436 --> 00:31:46,076 Speaker 3: Yeah? He just laughed. He agreed and he laughed. I mean, 554 00:31:46,116 --> 00:31:47,596 Speaker 3: he did have a good sense of humor. 555 00:31:52,596 --> 00:31:55,916 Speaker 2: I'm not surprised Phil Sokoloff wasn't interested in the sensual 556 00:31:55,956 --> 00:31:59,596 Speaker 2: aspects of the French fry. Of course, not he was 557 00:31:59,596 --> 00:32:02,596 Speaker 2: a zealot, a man shaken by his brush with death. 558 00:32:03,236 --> 00:32:06,476 Speaker 2: He nibbled on vegetables and maybe an occasional turkey sandwich. 559 00:32:07,036 --> 00:32:08,916 Speaker 2: He saw his job as getting all of us to 560 00:32:08,956 --> 00:32:11,716 Speaker 2: think about the nutritional consequences of what we put in 561 00:32:11,716 --> 00:32:15,236 Speaker 2: our mouths, and for that I think we are in 562 00:32:15,276 --> 00:32:19,276 Speaker 2: his debt. But McDonald should have stood up and pointed 563 00:32:19,276 --> 00:32:21,996 Speaker 2: out what is lost when we define food so narrowly, 564 00:32:22,916 --> 00:32:25,716 Speaker 2: the world's oblique place, when there's no room for pleasure. 565 00:32:27,356 --> 00:32:30,236 Speaker 2: You know what one of the Matson millennials said after 566 00:32:30,316 --> 00:32:32,676 Speaker 2: she had tasted a tallow fry for the first time. 567 00:32:33,916 --> 00:32:55,116 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you for the delicious fries. Revisionist History 568 00:32:55,156 --> 00:32:59,276 Speaker 2: is produced by Mia Lobel and Jacob Smith, with Camille Baptista, 569 00:32:59,596 --> 00:33:04,556 Speaker 2: Stephanie Daniel, and Ciomara Martinez White. Our editor is Julia Barton. 570 00:33:05,076 --> 00:33:08,676 Speaker 2: Fln Williams is our engineer. Original music by Luis Gara. 571 00:33:09,196 --> 00:33:12,396 Speaker 2: Special thanks to Andrew Stelzer, who came with me to Matson, 572 00:33:12,956 --> 00:33:16,676 Speaker 2: and as always to Andy Bauers and Jacob Weisberg at Panopley. 573 00:33:17,516 --> 00:33:18,516 Speaker 1: I'm Malcolm Gladwell. 574 00:33:22,076 --> 00:33:24,196 Speaker 2: While I still have you, I want to remind you 575 00:33:24,236 --> 00:33:27,436 Speaker 2: that Revisionist History has a website where we provide links 576 00:33:27,436 --> 00:33:30,316 Speaker 2: to books and articles and videos of relevance to the episodes. 577 00:33:30,636 --> 00:33:35,236 Speaker 2: Please check it out at revisionisthistory dot com. For this episode, though, 578 00:33:35,396 --> 00:33:37,276 Speaker 2: I want to give a special shout out to two 579 00:33:37,316 --> 00:33:40,956 Speaker 2: people whose work helped me a lot. One is Gary Taubes, 580 00:33:41,076 --> 00:33:44,276 Speaker 2: who has been writing really provocatively about what we eat 581 00:33:44,356 --> 00:33:46,396 Speaker 2: and what it does to us for a very long time. 582 00:33:47,076 --> 00:33:49,916 Speaker 2: His most recent book, which I loved, is The Case 583 00:33:49,916 --> 00:33:54,116 Speaker 2: Against Sugar. The other is Nina Teischeltz, whose fantastic book 584 00:33:54,156 --> 00:33:57,636 Speaker 2: The Big Fat Surprise, Why Butter, meat and Cheese Belong 585 00:33:57,716 --> 00:34:00,356 Speaker 2: in a Healthy Diet was of enormous help to me 586 00:34:00,396 --> 00:34:04,516 Speaker 2: in researching this episode. Thank you Nina, thank you Gary, 587 00:34:04,916 --> 00:34:07,516 Speaker 2: and to all those of you listening, I recommend those 588 00:34:07,556 --> 00:34:09,076 Speaker 2: two authors to you whole heart. 589 00:34:09,116 --> 00:34:09,516 Speaker 9: Whe did it thin