1 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mob Never Told You from House toupports 2 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline 3 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: and I'm Kristen, and I'm going to start off this 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 1: podcast by admitting something about myself, which is that when 5 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: I was younger and I found myself no longer believing 6 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: in the Christian faith that I had grown up with. UM, 7 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: I started pursuing, as do many young people and people 8 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: who feel that big religion or no religion, they still 9 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: want to feel a connection to something bigger than themselves. 10 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: I got into tarot cards. Oh tell me more, Caroline. Yeah, 11 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 1: so I got one of those like cheesy, slit glossy, 12 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: terribly illustrated packs from who knows where, probably hot topic 13 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: or something. Um, I don't know, it's hot topics still around. 14 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: I think they are right, probably, UM, I wonder if 15 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: they're still as weird it as they were when I 16 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: was in high school. Tweens need to be TACKI somehow 17 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: mall goths. Yeah. Uh so I got into it and 18 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: I found that it was a really great, sort of 19 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 1: satisfying way to feel like I was connecting with some 20 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: spiritual force that I was part of, some magical mystical, 21 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: uh fantasy land that gave me some bit of control 22 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: and insight into the world around me. And I just 23 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: sort of summed up why people do tarot? Well, did you? 24 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: I'm curious? So did you? How often did you do it? Um? 25 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 1: Maybe like once or maybe once a week, maybe like 26 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: on the weekend or something. And would it be used 27 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: to help you figure out what to do with your 28 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: life or sort of reflect on things? I think both 29 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: A lot of it had to do with, like, um, 30 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: liking boys and wanting to do tarot about love. Um, 31 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: But I did the whole nine yards, Kristen. I would 32 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: like turn out the lights and light candles and like 33 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,119 Speaker 1: get in the zone and like breathe deeply and get 34 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: real quiet internally and focus on my question, which was 35 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,799 Speaker 1: probably like two so and so like me? Is so 36 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: and so gonna like me, which is like the bulk 37 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: of a lot of charot questions in the modern era. 38 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: And I'd lay out the cards in the Celtic cross formation. 39 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: There's a bunch of different formations that you can do 40 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: in tarot, and and read the cards and figure out 41 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: what was negative and what was positive and if they 42 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: were inverted or right side up. What that meant. And yeah, 43 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: I literally can't remember any insight that it ever actually 44 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: gave me or I thought that it gave me, But 45 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: it was kind of a really fun way to pass 46 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: the time. I was also big into runs at the time, 47 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: which was the same deal. You put them in a 48 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: sack and like you it's like scrabble tie and you 49 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: put your hands in there and you draw out some 50 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: runs and you figure out what your future supposed to be, 51 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: or you figure out the answer to a question. I'm 52 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: surprised I never got into runs. That sounds right up 53 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 1: my alley. Well. I even had I remember distinctly wearing 54 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 1: my rune necklace to music midtown here in Atlanta in 55 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: nineteen seven, seventh grade for me um with the nineties. Yeah, 56 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: I think it was ninety seven. Uh, And I definitely 57 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: like thought it was so eff and cool because it 58 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: was like a choker necklace. It was on. It was 59 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: on like one of those black cords, So nineties. You know, 60 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: I probably very hip today, little rune necklace, And uh, 61 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: I can't remember what it meant. It was something like 62 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: very you know, very like middle school self centered, like independent, 63 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: or like something, I'm a cool person. Run I don't 64 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: even care about the curfew. After college, my roommates than 65 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: I went through a Tarot phase, but it was more 66 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: a thing, parlor game when we would all hang out. 67 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: People would come over, have some beers and like, let's 68 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: do taro. Oh my god, was it me? Yeah, yeah, 69 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: we're drunk. Yeah, yes, that is what it meant for 70 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: people hundreds and hundreds of years ago too. You and 71 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: your friends were far more connected to the true roots 72 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 1: of tarot than seventh grade Caroline was. I assure you, yeah, 73 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: Because here's the thing about the history of tarot. It's 74 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: a little bit of a letdown because it really just 75 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: started out as a game and we've been making up 76 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: the rules for tarot ever since. Yeah oh yeah, oh, 77 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: and so it's so um. I don't know what word 78 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,239 Speaker 1: to use here, but I just I put my hands 79 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 1: to my face and real worried when I read like 80 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: first person accounts of tarot card readers, and like, how 81 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: seriously so many people take it. It's like a huge 82 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: part of some people's lives, and I don't want to 83 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: dismiss that part of your life, fair listeners, but there's 84 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: there's literally no mystical meaning behind tarot. Um like. Like 85 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: Kristen said it, it's meaning has changed over the centuries. 86 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 1: It really did originate in the Islamic and Arabic world 87 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: as just as just cards. The fabulous people in the 88 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: Middle East invented playing cards, and they were beautiful. They 89 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: were hand painted. They were something that the wealthy had 90 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 1: to pass the time, and so they were painted with 91 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: all sorts of things that would be familiar to these 92 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: people in their everyday lives. So there'd be architectural elements 93 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: painted on their Later there would be people or or 94 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: items represented on the cards. But they were all meant 95 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 1: to just play games. And so uh. These cards, of course, 96 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 1: through trade through military invasions, made their way to Europe. 97 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: They've been used everything from games, like they said, to 98 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: literary prompt for writers to the way we think of 99 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: them now as tools for divination. Although I do like 100 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: and not to get ahead of ourselves, but I do 101 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: like how long we have been using tarot, even pre 102 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 1: divination phase, to help us predict whether someone will like 103 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: us back or not. Yes, there was one Spanish deck 104 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: that was meant to figure out the object of your 105 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: affection in each suit. So like the cups or the wands, 106 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: or whatever. Each suit of the debt corresponded to a 107 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: different type of woman, either maidens, wives, widows, or nuns. 108 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: Always get the nuns, always a nun, never a made. 109 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: But taro as we think of it today, really got 110 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: its start in Italy, I believe, around the fifteenth century. 111 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 1: But again it was nothing but a game at that time. 112 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 1: And from Italy it was exported to France and Germany, 113 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: and and taro had no history as a game in 114 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: English speaking areas. It was introduced instead by occultists. So 115 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: that's interesting, right, that little tidbit about how people in Italy, France, 116 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 1: and Germany we're thinking of it as a game. Even 117 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: if it was, even if it did have a divination bent, 118 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: it was still sort of a playful thing versus in England, 119 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: where they didn't get it until some kind of shady occultists, 120 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: as we'll get into in greater detail much later in 121 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: the podcast, they introduced it as an actual mystical, magical thing. 122 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: So to give a brief rundown of Tero decks today, 123 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: they've got seventy eight cards. Fifty six are the minor 124 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: arcana or the suit cards, So like the you know, 125 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: seven of Wand's uh and twenty two make up the 126 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: major arcana or trump cards. You've got four suits, swords, batons, cups, 127 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: and coins, each of which has an ace through a 128 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: tin in addition to the jack through king. The major 129 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: cards also have a fool, which is traditionally labeled as zero. 130 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: And today, of course people read all sorts of meanings 131 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: into tarot cards. So for me, a growing up in 132 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: a very conservative home, tarot cards were seen as a 133 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: tool of the devil, as they can. But then of 134 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: course there are people who use tarot to predict the 135 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: future they see. Some see it as a gateway to 136 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: mystical beings or otherworldly knowledge, and then others use it 137 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: more as a meditative device just to reflect and get 138 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: more insight on yourself and also relationships. And tarot was 139 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: something that came up in your conversation Caroline a few 140 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: months back in with author Jessic Crispin, who wrote The 141 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: Dead Ladies Project. Yeah, showed the Dead Ladies Project. She 142 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: also founded the website book Splot, and she's got a 143 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: pretty cool tarot side business. She herself got into it 144 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: a sort of a backup job while she was between 145 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: gigs and now reads tarot for people, not as a 146 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: way to like predict the future, but it's almost sort 147 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: of a literary inspirational device to help you sort of 148 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: figure out your narrative or figure out what your own 149 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: strengths are. Um. But let's let's dive in now and 150 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: take a closer look at Terra's origins and evolution. And 151 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: a lot of this is coming from a great article 152 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: over at Collectors Weekly which has some beautiful images of 153 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: all of those cards from the Islamic world. So we 154 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: mentioned the fifteenth century, and it was between the fourteenth 155 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: and fifteenth centuries that people started using cards for games 156 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 1: and playful divination, emphasis on playful and it was something 157 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: called mam look game cards that were brought to Western 158 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 1: Europe from the Middle East and in the Islamic world, 159 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 1: as Caroline mentioned, card playing was really something for the 160 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: high born, and these cards were just maniature pieces of art. 161 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: They were often hand painted and they would be scrawled 162 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: with calligraphy, whereas in Europe they lost a little bit 163 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: of their claud us because you have printing technology, which 164 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: did mean though that it became something that wasn't only 165 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: exclusive to the wealthiest. More people could get their hands 166 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: literally on these cards and paper products, but they probably 167 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: weren't hand painted. But if you look at the Arabic calligraphy, 168 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: they would often contain aphorisms or sort of many fortunes, 169 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: such as as for the present that rejoices thy heart 170 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: will soon open up a little fingers crossed, or how 171 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: about this just takes a little darker turn with a 172 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: sword of happiness, I shall redeem a beloved who will 173 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: afterwards take my life. Whoa buy or beware? Boy? Oh, 174 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like a good relationship. That sort of 175 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: happiness will get you every time. Yeah. So by the 176 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: fifteen hundreds in Europe you've got these beautiful cards being 177 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: used for literary exercises, so not too different from what 178 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: Jessica Crispin is using it for herself. Uh, and games 179 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: that are similar to modern day bridge and you get 180 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: some more playful to a nation. So Italian aristocrats were 181 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: playing this game tarokey appropriety. Basically you'd be dealt random 182 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: cards and have to write poetic verses about other players 183 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 1: based on the content and the imagery of those cards. 184 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: And I love The Collector's Weekly compares it to an 185 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: early version of mash like I'm going to live in 186 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: a mansion with the hunvy and have Bobby as my husband. 187 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 1: I wanted Bobby. But this really evolved into a literary phenomenon. 188 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: I mean, people were writing lots of stories and poetry 189 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: based on the cards that they were drawing. It also 190 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: reminds me of what's it called exquisite corpse where you 191 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: start a story and then you fold a piece of 192 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: paper until only the last sentence is revealed, and you 193 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: pass it around the person and picks up the story 194 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: and then and then it flows from there. But it's 195 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: not a card game, although it should be. Um, but 196 00:11:55,160 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: back to Tarot pre Tarot decks start to w would 197 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: develop as you have wealthy Italian families commissioning their own 198 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: hand painted cards of triumph. How boss is that to 199 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: be like, I'm so rich, I mean to have some 200 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: cards of triumph made just for myself. And they had 201 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: the same suits as those Arabic mam look cards of cups, swords, coins, 202 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: and photo sticks which would eventually become your wands or batons. Yeah, 203 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: and of course they had the courts of kings and 204 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: male underlings. We didn't have queens yet, so just that. Yeah, 205 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,079 Speaker 1: go figure um and in the seventeenth century we see 206 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 1: the Tarot de Marsilles originating. This is one of the 207 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 1: most common types of Tero decks ever produced. It was 208 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: usually printed with woodblocks and colored in by hand with 209 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: basic stencils. And it's worth noting that this is not 210 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: one specific deck, but rather a style that's seen in 211 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: France that would be copied a whole lot. Of course, 212 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 1: you know, once it's out of the hands or it's 213 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: trickled down, I guess I should say, from the rich 214 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: Italians all the way to France and Germany, that's when 215 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: you start seeing decks like the Tarot de Marcilles. But 216 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: there was some controversy, right, there was a bit of controversy, 217 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: so there was a papist card and papists. If that 218 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: does sound to you like papal, you're right, a lady 219 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: pope though, heck no so. But of course, since we 220 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: could not have a lady pope, she morphed into depending 221 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: on your dick, either to you know, the high priestess 222 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 1: or the Spanish captain. But in the case of the 223 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: high priestess, the high priest counterpart would be the pope. Yeah, 224 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: like I'm back, well, I mean so throughout these cards history, 225 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,439 Speaker 1: your imagery just depended on your worldview. I mean, there 226 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: were tarts, so from the very beginning, Tarot imagery was 227 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: morphing to accommodate common beliefs at the time. But I 228 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: love it. In the Taro de Marcilles, there are some 229 00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: pretty cool lady imagery. Strength is a woman subduing a lion. 230 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: The Empress was a pretty badass shield. You've got the 231 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,719 Speaker 1: star who's the neked lady pouring water, and I'm sure 232 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,679 Speaker 1: that they're tarraficionadas out there going like, oh, that's not 233 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: what it is or it's not what it means, but 234 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: I still love it. And then the woman on the 235 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: world card in this particular Terra deck, honestly, to me, 236 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: looks like she's standing inside of vagina. The description says 237 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: otherwise the most as if she's birthing herself. Yeah, yeah, 238 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: to me, that's That's what I'm going with, and no 239 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: one can tell me otherwise. So then in the eighteenth 240 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: century we have the rise of mystical Taro, but for 241 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: surprising reasons. Yeah, so, uh, you know, this goes back 242 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: to a lot of the ideas we talked about Kristen 243 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: Fair Listeners in our episode on witchcraft, because in that 244 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: episode we talked a lot about how it was men 245 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: elite mail them ers of society who were members of 246 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: secret Masonic societies and groups who got together and sort 247 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: of in order to give their own organizations in themselves 248 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: authenticity and credibility, they tried to link they're made up 249 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: organizational mythology with existing mythology about Egyptians and Greeks and Romans, 250 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: and that gave rise to a lot of our modern 251 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: day ideas about witchcraft. And the same is true for Taro. 252 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: So you've got to get a little context. In the 253 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: eighteenth century, power structures across Europe were shifting from feudalism 254 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: to capitalism, and you've got these mysterious, well on purpose mysterious. 255 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: They made themselves mysterious, and male hierarchy driven freemasonry, these 256 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: groups and their interests in the occult is on the rise, 257 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: and as Mike's Asteric and a Sociology of Terror points out, 258 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: those secret society hierarchies reproduced and reaffirmed the patriarchy, unequal 259 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: power relations, and male hedgemony. In other words, they were 260 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: filling this power vacuum as positions of power shifted from 261 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: being inherited, so rich people to get more rich people 262 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: who are all in the powerful positions. Not that that 263 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: doesn't exist, but you know what I mean to being 264 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: earned powerful positions being earned through that Protestant work ethic 265 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: and knowing the right people. And these secret societies were 266 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: all about knowing the right people. Well, and it's ironic 267 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: that you just mentioned the Protestant work ethic, because part 268 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: of the pathway to knowing the right people and getting 269 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: in with these societies and getting a leg up there 270 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: for you know, in your station in life, had to 271 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: do with getting a grasp of this occult terra that 272 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: they kind of made up. They developed as part of 273 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: their mythology, this connection between tarot cards and Egypt, because 274 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: intellectuals commonly believed ancient Egyptian writing and religion held insights 275 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: into human existence, and so they took their tarot cards 276 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,959 Speaker 1: and linked that to ancient Egypt as a way of 277 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: gaining credibility and authority. Rather than being like, here's this 278 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: game we play and we kind of made up what 279 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: it means. Who wants to join us? It's so fun. Yeah, 280 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: it was just another way of being like, hey, we 281 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: are the holders of the mystical, magical truth. You've got 282 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 1: to go through us to get to the truth. And 283 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 1: also what was so appealing about these cards for these 284 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: rich white guys was that they were links to a 285 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: way of life that was enjoyed by those rich, wealthy, 286 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 1: high born Italian families of the fifteenth century. Mean, the 287 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: imagery itself is related to royalty and the elite. You've 288 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: got those kings and queens and popes. And then the 289 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: great thing about Tarot and great may or may not 290 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: be in quotes, is that the imagery is so easy 291 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: to manipulate. The meaning behind the imagery is so easy 292 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: to manipulate, and so easy to tell other people that 293 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 1: it means something um And you know, like we talked 294 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: about in our Psychics episode, Kristin, it's just human nature 295 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: to want to believe in this stuff, and I get it. 296 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 1: But it's worth discussing how a lot of this magical 297 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: belief system came out of a bunch of guys who 298 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: were just trying to use these cards and imbue them 299 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: with their own meaning in order to cement their fancy status. 300 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: Well and to the point that they even created Tarot 301 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: decks with Egyptian imagery to only reinforce this made up 302 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: connection between the two. Um and you have, though, two 303 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: big names who are responsible for really cementing this mystical 304 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: development of Tarot, but of whom are French. You first 305 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: have Antoine Courts de Jeblin, who was a French writer, 306 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: pastor and freemason. Real jack of all trades are here. 307 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: And then you have even more famous teacher and publisher 308 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: Jean Baptiste Aliette, who went by a pseudonym which was 309 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 1: just his last name Aliotte backwards. Yeah, so it's it's 310 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: a Tela, Talia, Natella, Nazela. Yeah, he went by Natla Venta, Ntela. 311 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: Natella and Jebelin were the first to align the tarot 312 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: with these mystical and divinatory properties. So in one in 313 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: his nine volume History of the World, which was quite impressive, 314 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: he didn't have Wikipedia or anything, uh Djevelin said that 315 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,880 Speaker 1: Tarot was based on a holy book written by Egyptian 316 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: priests and bought brought to Europe by gypsies from Africa. 317 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: So I'm like, I'm so impressed that in your History 318 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: of the World you managed to make so much of 319 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: it up. Um. Aliette meanwhile wrote his own book on 320 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: the tarot and claimed that he learned divination with playing 321 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 1: cards first, but added his special Italian card, the telecard, which, 322 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: as in modern tarot, was meant to basically stand in 323 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 1: for the person having his or her fortune read. Eventually, 324 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: he switches over to using a quote unquote true tarot 325 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: deck and publishes his own, which is one of the 326 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: very first design specifically for divination, not just for game playing, 327 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: claiming again people that it had secret wisdom passed down 328 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 1: from ancient Egypt. I mean people stop making stuff up well, 329 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: or just stop being so gullible. Yeah, oh yeah, that's 330 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: that that too. Um. But so, of course, because this 331 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: is something of the elite, it makes sense that it 332 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 1: would eventually trickle down and be considered real cool, real cool. 333 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: It's like, I don't know, what's hoverboards are real cool. 334 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 1: Maybe they're trickling down. What's trickling down now? I don't know, 335 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 1: Beverly hoverboard definitely have definitely. It's so taro trickles down 336 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: to the rank and file, and so by we get 337 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,919 Speaker 1: our first celebrity card reader what what and she is 338 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: a lady, hence the pronoun she is a lady. It's 339 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: Mademoiselle le Normand or Marie Anne Adelaide Len Norman, who 340 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: shows up in Paris claiming that she learned card reading 341 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,199 Speaker 1: again from gypsies. And here's the context. Because I know 342 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 1: people are not a fan of the term gypsy. It's 343 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: not a great term to use. There was this idea 344 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 1: at the time that Gypsies were people who were roaming 345 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: around Europe from Egypt, hence the name. And so there 346 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 1: again is our Egyptian connection. Uh to give herself legitimacy, 347 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 1: she even read cards for Empress Josephine using Elliott's deck 348 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: that he designed. Yeah, there's that famous painting. I think 349 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 1: it might be called the Fortune Teller, which is essentially 350 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 1: depicting Uh le Normand reading in front of Josephine and 351 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,360 Speaker 1: you have Napoleon um to the side, and was also 352 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: a depiction of her actually reading Napoleon's cards, but as 353 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: Tarot expert Mary Greer notes, as highly unlikely that she 354 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: actually did that for Napoleon, but she definitely read for Josephine. 355 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: And as Greer also notes, it is thanks to this 356 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: woman that the world really found out about Tara, that 357 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: it became this big thing. And after she died, oracle 358 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: decks were published with her name on them, sort of 359 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: like a celebrity endorsement. I mean, she was dead, but 360 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: trading on her name. It's like celebrity perfumes today. But 361 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: dead lady tarot cards. Yeah, totally the same thing. I'm 362 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: sure they smelled like something. I tell you what. Though, 363 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: when she was alive, descriptions of her were none too kind. 364 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: No no. In eighteen fifteen, a visitor described her as 365 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: a monstrous toad, bloated and venomous. She had one walleye, 366 00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 1: but the other was a piercer, which I really enjoyed you, 367 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: or a fur cap upon her head from beneath which 368 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:07,479 Speaker 1: she glared out upon her horrified visitors. Yeah, I love it. 369 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: I love it. So you know, we've got the origins 370 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 1: of tarot, mystic tarot, and tarot card reading among these 371 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: elite men, right, And as it trickles down, we start 372 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: to see fortune tellers and card readers being depicted like 373 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: we talked about in our last episode, as as women 374 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 1: and as in this case toad like monstrous women. But 375 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 1: I have to give you a little historical side note tidbit. 376 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: In there's this book on fortune telling, right, and it's 377 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 1: expanded to include chapters on card tossing and also coffee 378 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 1: ground reading and its title and this does tie into 379 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: the whole gender thing. Was every lady's own fortune teller 380 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: or an infallible guide to the hidden decrees of fate 381 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: being a new and regular system for fortune telling future 382 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: events to which has added a new method of fortune 383 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: telling by the dregs of coffee. So, ladies, you need 384 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: to pick yourself up a book, yeah, I mean, And 385 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: that was something that Mary Greer noted in her very 386 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: comprehensive history of taro. Once you get to the nineteenth century, 387 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: it really was a lady's pastime. It was something associated 388 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: with old women, soldiers, wives and ladies playing these parlor games. 389 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 1: And there's all sorts of artwork depicting this of women 390 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: huddled together reading their own cards. There is an excerpt 391 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: from Casa Nova's Diaries of talking about this horribly underaged 392 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,199 Speaker 1: girl and she was like thirteen, where he was like, 393 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I was into it, but she was always 394 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: obsessed with reading her tarot cards, you know, to find 395 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: out if I was realavanting or not. Well. I thought 396 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 1: the description was actually hysterical because he's like she's so jealous. 397 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 1: All she does is put the cards down and point 398 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 1: out to me all the ways in which I was 399 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: like in bed with someone at this place at this time, 400 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: and I just I just pictured like this jealous girlfriend. 401 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: It does ruined the hilarity of the story that she 402 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: was so young. But but but by this time, I mean, 403 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: it's pretty well established that tarot is a female pastime 404 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, that that men would kind 405 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: of snicker because it was a ladies pastime. Yeah, that 406 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 1: it was scorned by men. And she does point out 407 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 1: at her really really fantastic and fascinating blog that you 408 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: get this underground at the time of mostly older women 409 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: who made a good, if precarious, she says, living out 410 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: of various forms of divination. So we start to see 411 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: women who perhaps don't have any other way to make 412 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: money outside of the house, and here they are able 413 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 1: and basically sort of an intimate, not too public setting 414 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: making money off of the sort of emotional and psychological 415 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: desires of other people, which completely relates to our previous 416 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: episode on women in psychics. But we need to move 417 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: forward in our little time line to the turn of 418 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: the century. But first, you guessed it, we gotta take 419 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 1: a quick break. So as we moved into the nineteenth 420 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 1: and twenty centuries, those secret and occult societies that we 421 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 1: talked about earlier are still pretty much dominated by dudes. 422 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,400 Speaker 1: But you do have groups emerging like the Hermetic Order 423 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: of the Golden Dawn and the Theosophical Society, which were 424 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: co ed And I think it's interesting that the Theosophical Society, 425 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: for instance, even had women among its founders and leaders. 426 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: But people in these groups were super fixated on uncovering 427 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: the quote unquote true terror and the cards true meanings, 428 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: which is like, guys, um, like a hundred years ago, 429 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 1: you invented this. Uh. I don't know if you realize 430 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: that it was just a card game in the Arabic 431 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 1: world and in Italy, and then you guys were the 432 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: ones who made it magical That they didn't have podcast 433 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: back then, Caroline, how would they know what they know? 434 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:10,120 Speaker 1: But they were so intent on on buying into this 435 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 1: whole thing of like tarot has a true meaning, uh, 436 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 1: and we're and we're going to find it and we're 437 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: the holders of this truth. So so we're going to 438 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: be a part of delivering the true Tarot to the people. 439 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: But what I mean that just opens up a whole 440 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 1: occultist playground for you to kind of get to, you know, 441 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: do what you want and make up whatever connections you 442 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: want to, just like a man or a woman. These 443 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: were co ed, they were some of them. There was 444 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: one very fascinating woman who's been well, not anymore so much, 445 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: but at the time was left out of tarot history. Yeah, 446 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: this is the thing. If you own a deck of 447 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 1: Tarot cards, there is a very good chance that you 448 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: have seen the artwork of Pamela Pixie Coleman Smith. Because 449 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: the most famous deck in tarot history is the Writer 450 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: Waight deck, which was printed in nineteen nine and named 451 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: for publisher William Writer in popular mystic A E. Wait. 452 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 1: And you might be like, wait, why isn't it the 453 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: Wait Huh, Why isn't it the Writer Wait Coleman Smith deck. Huh? Well, 454 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: because she was a lady person and an artist and 455 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: Wait was a jerk and and pretty much purposely left 456 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 1: her name out. But so the Writer Weight deck is 457 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 1: so famous. It's the first mass market tarot deck, which 458 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: also helped boost terrorist popularity. And again its intention was divination, 459 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: not playing those Italian mind games. Uh. And it even 460 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: came with a book explaining the meaning behind Coleman Smith's imagery. 461 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: And imagine what a huge job this is because Coleman 462 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: Smith has to illustrate seventy eight cards and about six months, 463 00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: and her illustrations are notable because her pip cards told stories, 464 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: and the PIP cards are those lesser cards, not the 465 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: ones that are you know, the fancy, like this is 466 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: the Son, this is the Hermit, et cetera. So all 467 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: the cards together tell a story, which again is a 468 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: great way if you're trying to get people to connect 469 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: with imagery or connect with the philosophy, this is a 470 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: great way to do it because your pictures till a 471 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: thousand words, and so to place all of these amazing 472 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: illustrations on each card and then to do a Tarot formation, 473 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: it's so easy to tell a story and be able 474 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: to interpret this image is kind of however you or 475 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: the card reader wants well. Since I was raised in 476 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: a household where tarot cards were tools of the devil. 477 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: After college, when my roommates got some Tarot cards, was 478 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: the first time I'd ever seen tarot cards up close 479 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: and held them, and I was enamored with the illustrations, 480 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: and I love thinking about how, oh I was so 481 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: blown a way by this unsung lady artists work, because 482 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: I mean they really are gorgeous. Yeah, and she has 483 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: a fascinating story. So she's born in eighteen seventy eight 484 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: in London to American parents, and they lived all over, 485 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 1: including in Jamaica. And she's such a cutie if you 486 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: see pictures of her. But people at the time very 487 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: like euphemistically and quietly questioned her true parenting. Basically, they 488 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: were like, you know, she's awfully dark and queer looking. 489 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: Perhaps her actual parents are Jamaican and her parents themselves 490 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: were very artistic and under their influence, she ends up 491 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: joining a touring theater group as an actor, costume maker, 492 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: and set designer. She's super artistic. She ends up studying 493 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: art at the Pratt Institute in Brooklyn. She became an 494 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: illustrator for Yates, bram Stoker and others, and a lot 495 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: of her personal art, interestingly enough, was a reflection of 496 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: her synesthesia. So she would listen to these symphonies and 497 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: then eat. So it results in this swooping, sweeping imagery 498 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: that's so beautiful and also another tidbit of how like 499 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: really cool this lady is. As a member of the 500 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: group Suffrage Atallier, she puts her art to use for 501 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: Suffrage posters and cartoons, and her talent didn't stop there. 502 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 1: She was also a writer, publishing several plays and books, 503 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: including a collection of Jamaican folklore, which she would just 504 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: go out and recite at events, which kind of blows 505 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: my mind because hello, stage fright. Um, but I love 506 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: this excerpt from Brooklyn Life magazine from seven which some 507 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: hipster should really revive a sap. They described her as 508 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: a gentlewoman presenting an odd type of thoroughly unconventional femininity, 509 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: and therein lies her greatest charm, which I think is 510 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: an old school way of saying she's not like other girls. Yeah, 511 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: she's like the cool girl, but we're kind of suspicious ever, 512 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: because she wears all this billowy garments. She even started 513 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: her a magazine called The Green Chief, which certainly did 514 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: have other contributors, but it was mainly a way for 515 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: her to publish her writing. Oh magazine like a little 516 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: right girl, Yes she is, uh so. Her introduction to 517 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: tarot and creating the Cards comes in nineteen o one, 518 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: when she joined the Hermetic Order of the Golden Down, 519 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: which is where she met A. E. Waite, as well 520 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: as Yates and Alistair Crowley, that scoundrel who you'll remember 521 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: from our Witchcraft episode helped this guy, Gerald Gardner write 522 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: a quote unquote manual for Witchcraft rituals. And Crowley was 523 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: also the future creator of the equally famous soilth Taro. Yeah, 524 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: the filth Tarot cards are intense. So Coleman Smith's cards 525 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: are printed with pretty not not that great fanfair and 526 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: nobody's really into it because at this point in England 527 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 1: people are still like, what what is this French thing? 528 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: I'm not into this, But it's so great when you 529 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: read stuff about Coleman Smith, because she was very clear 530 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: about having her own idea is about how you should 531 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 1: prepare to read the cards. The whole thing that seventh 532 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: grade Caroline went through like quiet the mind, think about 533 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: your question, picture your question, and then flip the cards over. 534 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: And in terms of her illustrations, the deck itself is 535 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: clearly inspired by this fifteenth century Italian deck called the 536 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: Solo Busca, but they, in turn her illustrations in turn 537 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: inspired their own future imitators. And I love this fact, 538 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: so she used her own cat for one of the illustrations, 539 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: so I think was named Snuffles. Snuffles, of course it 540 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: was so Snuffles inspired future artists and card readers she 541 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: interpreted as a million different symbols and meetings, which ultimately 542 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: it's just Snuffles. Yeah, it's just her cat. She also 543 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: used her buddy slash potentially lover our companion, Eatie Craig, 544 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: as a model for some of the women on the cards. 545 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: And so isn't that fascinating to know that here's this 546 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: person who was like under the gun to create all 547 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: these beautiful illustrations and six months for very little pay, 548 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: using her own characters from her own life to create 549 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 1: these mystical tarot figures, and people today are still interpreting 550 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: them and reinterpreting them as these magical mystical beings. I 551 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: just love it. But even though her work was so 552 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: significant and she put so much thought into it, and 553 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: people have in turn put so much thought into her cards, 554 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,359 Speaker 1: she was completely left out. She received no mention by 555 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: name in the book that accompanied the Deck and Wait 556 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,280 Speaker 1: referred to her only as a quote young woman artist 557 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 1: who had illustrated the cards based on his instructions. She 558 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: received very little payment and no royalties, and in one 559 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 1: letter to her agent she even said, I just did 560 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: a huge project for very little pay, just basically saying like, 561 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: I know, you know, I'm just just hustling here. And 562 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 1: in case you were wondering about the true nature of 563 00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 1: Waite's character, he and indeed was a journy. He wrote, 564 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,919 Speaker 1: the practice of painting among women has been clumsily cultivated. 565 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 1: It remains a bad imitation of nature, whereas it might 566 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: be a great art. And I'm like, dude, if you 567 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: are so like anti woman and anti woman artist, why 568 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 1: did you even hire this woman? Oh? Could it be 569 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 1: because she's actually really talented and you just don't want 570 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 1: to give her any credit and may be easier to 571 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: discredit her. But for Coleman Smith's part, she converted to 572 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: Catholicism and ran a priest's retreat in Cornwall, but then 573 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: died panelists in one even though if she had gotten 574 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: royalties on that deck, she would have been sitting pretty yeah, 575 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: total millionaire. Yeah, the deck ends up falling out of 576 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,240 Speaker 1: use until about the seventies, when you've got American playing 577 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 1: card manufacturer US Games. I believe it is who reprinted them, 578 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,919 Speaker 1: and it was the US Games guy who was saying 579 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,800 Speaker 1: that Coleman Smith could have been a millionaire today. Well, 580 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 1: she's not the only tarot illustrator of note. In the 581 00:35:55,920 --> 00:36:00,400 Speaker 1: late nineteen thirties, Marguerite Frieda Harris, a k A. Lady 582 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: FRIEDA Harris met Alisair Crowley at sixty years old and 583 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: painted the images for his foth tarot dick over and 584 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 1: over again across five years. I mean, think about that. 585 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: Coleman Smith did hers in six months. Yeah, yeah, And 586 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 1: so FRIEDA. Harris is a pretty interesting character. She herself 587 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: was very wealthy, as indicated by the title lady, like 588 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 1: she was doing all right. She didn't need a bunch 589 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: of money. She also didn't need a bunch of notoriety. 590 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: I just wasn't a nickname. She was like, call me lady. Well, 591 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: I mean, you've got people like uh Mademoiselle lenormand you know, 592 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,840 Speaker 1: like people who not that Mademoiselle is not just a 593 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: normal French uh courtesy title. But you've got people who 594 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: are really playing up there, like mystical associations. And but 595 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: she really was a lady. But yeah, she and Alistair 596 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: Crowley had this fascinating correspondence, and they were total buds 597 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 1: and BFFs uh. In one letter she told him to 598 00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: basically shut up. She's tired of being his bank. And listen, Crowley, 599 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: your notes for these illustrations are terrible. You're so stupid. 600 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: But if you go through their letters and read them, 601 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: they're very close. They're both in this mystical secret society 602 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:17,320 Speaker 1: and they talk so much about issues of these secret 603 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: societies and knowledge and truth and religion and all of 604 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,879 Speaker 1: this great stuff, and they were very, very close. But yeah, 605 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 1: like Kristen said, it's crazy to think that she was 606 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,760 Speaker 1: doing these paintings over five whole years, where Coleman Smith 607 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: had to smush it into six months. And listeners, you 608 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: have to google image the Fouth Deck if you haven't 609 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 1: seen it already, because the art is wild. Harris used 610 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 1: projected synthetic geometry to create these almost like Salvador Dolly 611 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 1: esque paintings or illustrations, I should say. And then he 612 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 1: really do look like something out of a sci fi book. Yeah, 613 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 1: they really do look like Because I was looking at 614 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: the cards and I was like, why do they look 615 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: familiar to me? Because they look exactly like contemporary sci 616 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,359 Speaker 1: fi illustrations, like that early sci fi stuff you see 617 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 1: on book covers. I think though, if I had, if 618 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: I ever tried to use the Fowth deck, I would 619 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: just get really confused and tired because the illustrations are 620 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:24,320 Speaker 1: so abstract. Yeah yes, yeah. And whereas um Coleman Smith's 621 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:29,759 Speaker 1: illustrations were sort of grounded in that fifteenth century Italian deck, 622 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,399 Speaker 1: uh FREDA. Harris's illustrations were just I mean, they were 623 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,840 Speaker 1: definitely a joint project between her and Crowley, like he 624 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: gave her plenty of feedback. It almost reads like a 625 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 1: graphic designer client email thread going back and forth. But 626 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,799 Speaker 1: her illustrations were off the chart, I mean, they were 627 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: something totally different. So obviously, taro today still plays a 628 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 1: huge role in divination, in connections with the occult, but 629 00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 1: also just in people's day to day lives seeking meaning 630 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 1: or maybe seeking some some insight into the world around them. 631 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,959 Speaker 1: But sociologist Mike's Hysteric, who we mentioned earlier, has nothing 632 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: nice to say. He's not into that at all. He's 633 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,799 Speaker 1: really concerned about how easily people today have taken up 634 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:20,479 Speaker 1: tarot ideology that has roots in those Masonic societies, which 635 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: he said are so problematic because those groups are based 636 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,440 Speaker 1: in classist, racist, and sexist traditions. He says that those 637 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 1: groups not only barred people's participation, women, people of color, 638 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 1: people of lower classes, but they also borrow heavily and 639 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 1: appropriate from histories and traditions that aren't there. So are 640 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:45,799 Speaker 1: Tarot cards an example of cultural appropriation according to the sociologist, Yeah, wow, well, 641 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: and he also admits that not only Tarot, but religion 642 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 1: in general persists to fulfill that basic human need of 643 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 1: explained the world around you and kind of relieving our anxieties. 644 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,399 Speaker 1: So I mean there is a method to our madness. Yeah, 645 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,920 Speaker 1: and it's why things like the Goddess movement that we 646 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,879 Speaker 1: talked about in our Witchcraft episode can be so powerful. 647 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: They fill a vacuum that need for spiritual fulfillment and 648 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 1: they reframed the normal patriarchal structure to one focusing on women. 649 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 1: I mean, similarly, you have Tarot decks from the eighties, 650 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,720 Speaker 1: I believe, like theist Tara which was created by Ruth West, 651 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 1: and that's exclusively feminine focused and non traditional with exclusively 652 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: women on the card, some of which are renamed. And 653 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: then you've got the more recent she is sitting in 654 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 1: The Night Tarot Book, which is a more recent feminist 655 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 1: lesbian tarot book. So you've got stuff that's grounded in 656 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 1: patriarchal Masonic traditions but being reclaimed. I don't know if 657 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 1: I can say reclaimed, but being claimed by women in 658 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 1: the twenty first century who are pointing it in a 659 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,239 Speaker 1: totally different direction. Yeah. I mean, I think it's safe 660 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,280 Speaker 1: to say that a lot of millennial feminists are totally 661 00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,800 Speaker 1: into tarot. There was even we even have a trend 662 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,359 Speaker 1: piece to back up our observations. There's a whole thing 663 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 1: in Newsweek about it, and they related to how organized 664 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:14,360 Speaker 1: religion has declined. Our participation has declined among the millennial generation, 665 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 1: especially according to a Pew study. Um and the millennials 666 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 1: that Newsweek interviewed said that astrology and tarot are their 667 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: favorite super natural tools for combating essentially existential angst. I mean, 668 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 1: that's what I was doing in the seventh grade. I 669 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:39,280 Speaker 1: guess there's some theories. Susan Miller, who's an astrologer, tells 670 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:43,400 Speaker 1: Newsweek that astrology, for instance, has a very firm structure, 671 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,880 Speaker 1: and a couple of the people that Newsweek talked to 672 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 1: young women specifically were like, yeah, you know what, it 673 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: helps me clarify feelings, my feelings about my uncertain future. 674 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 1: It helps me reduce a little bit of that recession anxiety. 675 00:41:57,960 --> 00:41:59,840 Speaker 1: Not to mention, they talked to one woman who not 676 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: only used it to alleviate her recession anxiety, but because 677 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 1: she was out of a job, she used tarot to 678 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 1: make money, similar to Jessica Crispin. So lots of stuff 679 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 1: wrapped up in that capitalistic tradition that's passed down from 680 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,839 Speaker 1: the Freemasons. Yeah, and and yet the thing that I 681 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 1: haven't seen an uptick in is elite dudes or just 682 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,440 Speaker 1: dudes in general picking up the tarot deck casually. Now, 683 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 1: I think it's another thing that's been feminized in people's minds, 684 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 1: that that's some silly magic stuff that old crones do. Well. 685 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 1: I'm very curious now to hear from listeners with knowledge 686 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:38,279 Speaker 1: of a tarot or any kind of interaction. If we 687 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 1: have any tarot readers listening, we want to hear from you. 688 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,400 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot Com is our 689 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,400 Speaker 1: email address. You can also tweet us at mom Stuff 690 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,240 Speaker 1: podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple 691 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: of messages to share with you right now. I have 692 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 1: a let her here from Isabella. She starts it off 693 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,000 Speaker 1: by saying, in the voice of the worm from Labyrinth, 694 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 1: Hello ladies, Hello Isabella, She says, I haven't even finished 695 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:13,839 Speaker 1: your podcasts on adult acne, but I had to get 696 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 1: in touch to encourage other listeners to get their hormones 697 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,760 Speaker 1: checked if they suddenly develop acne in their twenties and thirties. 698 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,160 Speaker 1: As a clear skinned teen growing up, I was immensely 699 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,240 Speaker 1: relieved that I didn't have to deal with chronic acne 700 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 1: like some of my friends. Don't get me wrong, I 701 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,399 Speaker 1: got the odd spot, but it was never anything worth 702 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,920 Speaker 1: complaining about, and so I traversed my teenage years worrying 703 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 1: about periods, boys, extra hair, and all those other lovely 704 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,760 Speaker 1: symptoms of puberty bar acne, for which I was very grateful. 705 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:43,640 Speaker 1: Fast forward a few years to the age of twenty two, 706 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 1: working in London alone and a stressful job with a 707 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,759 Speaker 1: terrible boss, and suddenly spots spots everywhere. At first I 708 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:51,920 Speaker 1: put this down to stress and some kind of karmit 709 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,720 Speaker 1: come up in but as the months passed and endless 710 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,000 Speaker 1: topical treatments failed, I went into a really, really dark place, 711 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,280 Speaker 1: something I can only see with him. Side After quitting 712 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:03,360 Speaker 1: my job in a blaze of glory, I took my 713 00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,320 Speaker 1: mom's advice and went to an indo chronologist who diagnosed 714 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,480 Speaker 1: me with polycystic ovarian syndrome, which is fairly common one 715 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:12,840 Speaker 1: in ten and results in a higher androgen level in 716 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,360 Speaker 1: the blood than normal, which, as you said in your podcast, 717 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: causes the devil dots. I was put on Yasmin straight away, 718 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 1: and six months later my skin had cleared up. I'm 719 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,319 Speaker 1: twenty seven now. Side note, I switched from Yasmin to 720 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,400 Speaker 1: another birth control brand due to questions regarding Yasmin's safety, 721 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 1: and I'm still grateful when I look in the mirror 722 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 1: and don't see spots. As you always say, hormones control 723 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,800 Speaker 1: everything in your body, and no amount of face washing 724 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 1: and topical ointments will change what is going on inside 725 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:40,759 Speaker 1: of you, even if for peace of mind, get your 726 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,680 Speaker 1: hormones checked out if you developed severe adult acne. If 727 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 1: it is pcos, it's amazingly easy to treat, and it's 728 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,680 Speaker 1: made a huge difference to my self image. You both 729 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:51,319 Speaker 1: do a great job, and my boyfriend and I look 730 00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,600 Speaker 1: forward to listening to more of your podcasts while I 731 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,879 Speaker 1: deal with some of his occasional spots. Yet, Kristen, other 732 00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:01,839 Speaker 1: couples do that as well, So it's thank you Isabella. Well, 733 00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:05,200 Speaker 1: I've got a letter here from our about our anal 734 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:09,000 Speaker 1: sex episode. She writes, I was so delighted to listen 735 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 1: to your podcast on the topic of anal sex. I've 736 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 1: had a variety of first and experiences, both positive and negative. 737 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:19,200 Speaker 1: As a teenager, I had an underwhelming first experience with 738 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,240 Speaker 1: a high school boyfriend, and shortly afterward experienced an older 739 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,480 Speaker 1: lover pressuring me to try again. It was when I 740 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,319 Speaker 1: was in my early twenties and in a long term 741 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,920 Speaker 1: relationship with someone that I was comfortable enough to be 742 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,000 Speaker 1: with two sexually explore that I became one of those 743 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 1: who not only has anal often, but absolutely loves it. Well, 744 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:38,759 Speaker 1: of course, it isn't for everyone. I found it so 745 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,000 Speaker 1: enjoyable and intimate, and I've certainly found it improving my 746 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,960 Speaker 1: ability to orgasm. I was recently talking about this with 747 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,000 Speaker 1: my best friend, and we've discussed how we each feel 748 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,160 Speaker 1: confident and like we have full agency over our sexuality 749 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,520 Speaker 1: when we performed this act. It was so great to 750 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:54,600 Speaker 1: be able to listen to a whole podcast about this 751 00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,319 Speaker 1: activity that we both love, and it would be a 752 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,160 Speaker 1: wonderful thing if everyone who wants to try could do 753 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,560 Speaker 1: so in a comfortable and enjoyable way. As you said, 754 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,400 Speaker 1: the statistics on just how many teenagers have such negative 755 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:10,239 Speaker 1: experiences is a strong testament to how vital comprehensive sex 756 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:13,480 Speaker 1: education is. This is something I have found over and 757 00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 1: over again in the UK. When I was pressured to 758 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,440 Speaker 1: comply as a teenager, I had never been told that 759 00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:21,759 Speaker 1: I had agency to say no, and I remember over 760 00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,479 Speaker 1: hearing girls at school discussing stories much like the ones 761 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,239 Speaker 1: related in the podcast. I'm about to start working with 762 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,520 Speaker 1: therapists within my old high school to improve the sex 763 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,400 Speaker 1: education and I've definitely got a huge amount of information 764 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,880 Speaker 1: from Sminthy. Thank you guys so much for all the 765 00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,920 Speaker 1: amazing work you do. Listening to you always makes me smile, 766 00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:42,560 Speaker 1: so thanks so much, our and thanks everybody who's written 767 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,239 Speaker 1: into us. Moms Stuff at how stuff works dot com 768 00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:47,360 Speaker 1: is our email address and for links to all of 769 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,719 Speaker 1: our social media as well as all of our blogs, 770 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:54,319 Speaker 1: videos and podcasts with links to our sources. So you 771 00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,840 Speaker 1: can learn more about tarot cards, head on over to 772 00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:05,359 Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never told you dot com or more on 773 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,840 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff 774 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:16,400 Speaker 1: works dot com