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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephan

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Speaker 1: never told you a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And we are back for the second part, which apparently

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Speaker 2: there's gonna be a third part because I I just

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Speaker 2: can't apparently keep things together of Christianity and the marginalized

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Speaker 2: people and specifically the queer communities and religious trauma. And honestly,

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Speaker 2: I should have expected this because when it comes to

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Speaker 2: attacks on both women and the queer community, it is

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Speaker 2: non stop and it continues every day. The rhetoric continues

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Speaker 2: every day. So yes, this is part two of now

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Speaker 2: what it's going to be the three part series. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: three part the way three parts of this episode of

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Speaker 2: the series that is elongated to being like a literal

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Speaker 2: season and a half.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I just wanted to make sure.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you're correct. And I think at the by the

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Speaker 2: end of this, we need to replay the entire thing

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Speaker 2: in one setting so that it's actually connected and people

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Speaker 2: are like, what is what's happening?

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Speaker 3: We could make a playlist.

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Speaker 2: I think we need to make a playlist and maybe

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Speaker 2: do like a feature on the Saturdays to actually just

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Speaker 2: recover everything. I think that might be a plan that

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Speaker 2: we have to have. So for those of you who

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Speaker 2: could not take this type of sad conversation enough for

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Speaker 2: the first time round, we may have a replay through

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Speaker 2: because we are sadistic apparently.

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Speaker 1: No back to back to back, where to go? Right?

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Speaker 2: And speaking of as before content warning to all the

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Speaker 2: grossness and hatefulness that is tangled into this rhetoric and

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Speaker 2: behind the anti LGBTQ plus movement, and it includes assault,

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Speaker 2: sexual assault, sexual mental and physical abuse use that will

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Speaker 2: be mentioned, all the practices and unfortunately we are starting

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Speaker 2: this episode where we left off all the part one

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Speaker 2: about how the organizations like Focus on the Family uses

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Speaker 2: because it didn't just use once upon a time and it

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Speaker 2: is still using harmful practices like conversion therapy as a

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Speaker 2: part of their anti LGBTQIA plus tactics. Oh, take a

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Speaker 2: deep breath, everyone, take a deep breath. Any because it's

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Speaker 2: going to be a shorter episode. I think because the

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Speaker 2: way I wrote it. I say this at the beginning

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Speaker 2: knowing how many pages it is, but who knows what

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Speaker 2: this discussion brings. But because it is a heavy topic.

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Speaker 2: Conversion therapy in itself is so gross and so traumatic

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Speaker 2: that it is going to be just specifically on that.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, sorry, So let's talk about the history of

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Speaker 2: conversion therapy first and then we're going to dive into

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Speaker 2: what is happening today because we need to be paying attention.

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Speaker 2: So conversion therapy, when it comes to the origins of

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Speaker 2: conversion therapy, it is sad and it is gruesome. The

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Speaker 2: history of it is gross. So what exactly is it.

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Speaker 2: Here's what the HRC or the Human Rights Center says. Quote.

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Speaker 2: Reparative or conversion therapy is a dangerous practice that targets

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Speaker 2: LGBTQ plus youth and cease to change their sexual or

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Speaker 2: gender identities. So called conversion therapy, sometimes known as reparative therapy,

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Speaker 2: is a range of dangerous and discredited practices that falsely

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Speaker 2: claim to change a person's sexual orientation or gender identity

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Speaker 2: or expression.

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Speaker 1: And here's a bit more detail from a research article

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Speaker 1: for ScienceDirect dot com.

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Speaker 3: Quote.

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Speaker 1: Religion based LGBTQA plus conversion practices frame all people as

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Speaker 1: potential heterosexuals whose gender aligns with their birth sex in

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Speaker 1: a CYS gender binary model of male and female sexes.

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Speaker 1: Deviation from this heterosexual CIS gender social identity model is

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Speaker 1: cast as curable sexual brokenness, and it goes into a

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Speaker 1: deeper explanation, saying religion based lgbtqa plus conversion practices are

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Speaker 1: grounded in the pseudoscientific conviction that all people are born

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Speaker 1: with the potential to develop heterosexual attraction and identity with

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Speaker 1: a gender identity that accords with that assigned to them

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Speaker 1: at birth. Sis gender proponents of lgbtqa plus conversion practices

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Speaker 1: view lgbtqa plus people as suffering from sexual brokenness that

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Speaker 1: can be cured. This ideology of sexual brokenness usually conflates

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Speaker 1: and confuses differences between sexual orientation and gender identity, seeing

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Speaker 1: any diversity in these attributes as having a common atiology

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Speaker 1: and treatment. Full membership and participation in faith communities can

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Speaker 1: be dependent on lgbtqa plus people of faith committing to

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Speaker 1: chastity and seeking healing for their sexual brokenness. The ideology

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Speaker 1: that informs lgbtq A plus conversion practices thus posits that

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Speaker 1: lgbtq A plus subjectivity and spiritual belonging are incommensurable. This

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Speaker 1: has led to the development of cultures that promote and

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Speaker 1: engage in various practices directed at changing are suppressing lgbtq

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Speaker 1: A plus sexual orientation and gender identities.

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Speaker 2: Right, and as we're speaking from the study, they're quoting

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Speaker 2: things like sexual brokenness, like they're putting those in quotes

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Speaker 2: to let you know this is what they say. So

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Speaker 2: I wish you could see And because she's actually doing

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Speaker 2: the quotes wider fingers while she's reading this project, I

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Speaker 2: get it, you see pause. But it's quite fun. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: no one knows what she's doing except for me. I

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Speaker 2: appreciate it. I appreciate it all. But we just want

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Speaker 2: to like firmly say, there's a lot of these things

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Speaker 2: that we sound If it sounds like that sounds gross,

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Speaker 2: why would you say that is probably quotes If we

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Speaker 2: don't say that out loud, like, we're gonna try to

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Speaker 2: emphasize it because this is if you know us, you know,

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Speaker 2: this is not our language. But then again, if AI

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Speaker 2: decides it's still our words, oh oh, we're in trouble.

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Speaker 2: Please know we are not in support of any of this. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I feel like we might have to put that at

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Speaker 2: the beginning and the end of every episode because of

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Speaker 2: AI changing our words around. I'm kind of scared. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: that's a whole different episode. Of course, with this type

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Speaker 2: of unsanctioned and unethical practices as seen by the medical community.

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Speaker 2: It can be difficult to have one specific term or definition.

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Speaker 2: And when I say unethical and unsanctioned, it has obviously

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Speaker 2: been criticized and disavowed by much pretty much all of

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Speaker 2: the professional h organizations out there, So, like the AMA,

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Speaker 2: all of them have said this is not correct. We

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Speaker 2: don't believe this anymore, This does not work. So according

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Speaker 2: to a documentation from a twenty twenty UN consultation on

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Speaker 2: conversion therapy, it is difficult to define it in a

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Speaker 2: straightforward manner. The article says, it's quite difficult to get

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Speaker 2: a grip on what we call conversion therapy or reparative therapy.

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Speaker 2: There are many definitions. For example, quote it is the

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Speaker 2: pseudoscientific practice of trying to change in individual sexual orientation

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Speaker 2: from homosexual or bisexual to heterosexual using psychological or spiritual interventions,

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Speaker 2: in this case leaving out the attempts of sub treatments

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Speaker 2: to also eradicate a transgender identity. An important reason why

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Speaker 2: it's so difficult to define is that we deal with

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Speaker 2: a multitude of practices which are not only offered in

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Speaker 2: separate organizations that consider converting homosexuality or transgender identity as

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Speaker 2: their main aim, but also inside the realm of churches

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Speaker 2: and church services, where these practices will be labeled or

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Speaker 2: can be labeled as for example, in exorcism that's en

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Speaker 2: quotes quote healing ministry or simply quote prayers and are

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Speaker 2: predominantly seen as religious practices. Another important reason for the

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Speaker 2: difficulty of definition is the constant change in how faith

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Speaker 2: organizations label these practices themselves, being very aware of the

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Speaker 2: public concerns that these treatments may raise. By doing so,

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Speaker 2: they avoid being trapped in a definition that renders their

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Speaker 2: offered treatment or practices as harmful, unethical, or potentially illegal

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Speaker 2: from the perspective of law.

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Speaker 1: And Though this idea of changing or suppressing sexual orientation

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Speaker 1: and identity probably could be dated centuries ago, one of

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Speaker 1: the first recorded mentions of it was in eighteen ninety

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Speaker 1: nine by a German psychiatrist who claim to have turned

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Speaker 1: a gay man straight. According to the psychiatrists, he told

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Speaker 1: people at a hypnosis conference that all they needed was

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Speaker 1: forty five hypnosis sessions and a few trips to the brothel.

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Speaker 1: According to history, Through hypnosis, he claimed he had manipulated

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Speaker 1: the man's sexual impulses, diverting them from his interest in

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Speaker 1: men to a lasting desire for women. Hmm.

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Speaker 3: How much did he charge for these sessions anyway? And

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Speaker 3: many credit.

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Speaker 1: This as the start of the pseudoscience of conversion therapy.

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Speaker 1: In the late nineteenth century, doctors and psychiatrists looked at

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Speaker 1: homosexuality as something that needed and could be treated. It

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Speaker 1: was like even included in their manuals beliefs that causes

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Speaker 1: of homosexuality could be found in men's testicles, or that

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Speaker 1: all humans were born bisexual, that homosexuality was something that

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Speaker 1: was conditioned, like a lot of misunderstandings, right.

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Speaker 2: I will say so the whole like being born bisexual

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Speaker 2: theory was Freud. But he did not see that as

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Speaker 2: a disease. So give him credit for that. For one thing.

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Speaker 2: He did not see that as a disease, unlike everybody else.

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Speaker 2: And as we mentioned earlier, we were talking about the

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Speaker 2: way that the narrative changes and the definition changes. Please

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Speaker 2: keep that in mind because we're going to come back

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Speaker 2: to it and why that's important in this conversation and

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Speaker 2: all these types of theories that led us to the

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Speaker 2: early quote treatments. And I'm putting quotes here because we

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Speaker 2: want to emphasize this is not true and was a

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Speaker 2: theory that was damaging and traumatizing, but it was the

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Speaker 2: early ideas and theories at the time. So quotes here

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Speaker 2: when I say treatments, and again a quote from theistory

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Speaker 2: dot Com of some of the practices at the time. Quote.

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Speaker 2: Some LGBTQ people were given electroconvulsive therapy, but others were

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Speaker 2: subjected to even more extreme techniques like lebotomies. Other quote.

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Speaker 2: Treatments included shocks administered through electroys that were implanted directly

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Speaker 2: into the brain. Robert Gelbraith Heath, a psychiatrist in New

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Speaker 2: Orleans who pioneered the technique, used this form of brain stimulation,

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Speaker 2: along with higher process and heterosexual pornography to quote change

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Speaker 2: the sexual orientation of gay men. But though he contended

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Speaker 2: he was able to actually turn gay men straight, his

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Speaker 2: work has since been challenged and criticized for his methodology.

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Speaker 2: I would hope so. An offshoot of these techniques was

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Speaker 2: a version therapy, which was founded on the premise that

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Speaker 2: if LGBTQ people became disgusted by homosexuality, they would no

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Speaker 2: longer experience same sex desire. Under medical supervision, people were

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Speaker 2: given chemicals that made them vomit when they, for example,

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Speaker 2: looked at photos of their lovers. Others were given electrical shocks,

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Speaker 2: sometimes to their genitals while they looked at gay pornography

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Speaker 2: or cross dressed, which.

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Speaker 1: Just messed up, shall we say. And though this idea

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Speaker 1: was eventually dismissed and seen as cruel and traumatic by

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Speaker 1: the medical world, and with the psychiatric field removing homosexuality

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Speaker 1: from the DSM, which is a manual of sex chiatric

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Speaker 1: disorders in nineteen seventy three, religious groups were reticent in

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Speaker 1: letting the practice go, and several organizers still practice it today.

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Speaker 1: Many religious organizations have rephrased the idea, calling it the

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Speaker 1: now known term of conversion therapy or reparative therapy, and

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Speaker 1: even just Christian counseling. Today, their methods vary, perhaps less

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Speaker 1: electroshock and lobotomies, but can include talk therapy, which you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of like healthy dose of guilt and

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Speaker 1: shame all the way up to extracisive. Here's the quote

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Speaker 1: from that history dot com article. At gay conversion camps

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Speaker 1: and conferences, LGBTQ people were isolated from family and friends, hypnotized,

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Speaker 1: told to pray until their homosexuality subsided, instructed to beat

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Speaker 1: effigies of their parents, mocked coach on proper genders, and

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Speaker 1: told their sexuality was unnatural and sinful.

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Speaker 2: Right, and by the way, that idea that everybody is

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Speaker 2: again born bisexual and then conditioned. That's kind of still

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Speaker 2: a belief in some of the religious organizations, except they

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Speaker 2: wouldn't say that out loud, except for the part that

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Speaker 2: are like, you know, you can resist this, Yes, this

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Speaker 2: is sin just calling it that way. So again, a

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Speaker 2: lot of the rhetoric is very religious, and we're gonna

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Speaker 2: see that because any I read through more Christian articles

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Speaker 2: that I'm so sad.

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Speaker 3: I believe it, Samantha why.

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Speaker 2: But the saddest part is I could tell you word

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Speaker 2: for word why they said that what they did, and

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Speaker 2: I taught some of those things, and I'm very sad

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Speaker 2: about this. But all that to say is you're going

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Speaker 2: to see this turn of phrase essentially to try to

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Speaker 2: convince you that this is not bad for you, that

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Speaker 2: we're just we're trying to impede on their freedom of

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Speaker 2: speech anyway. So statistically it does not work, and in

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Speaker 2: fact it does. The opposite, oftentimes doing more harm. And

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Speaker 2: here's a quote from the Science Direct study. Studies have

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Speaker 2: shown heightened suicidality, increased drug and alcohol use, increased risk

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Speaker 2: of homelessness, poor mental health, and poor economic participation among

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Speaker 2: people who have experienced conversion practices. Studies of young people

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Speaker 2: who have experienced conversion practices have shown negative impacts on

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Speaker 2: identity formation and family relationships. Note that many survivors of

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Speaker 2: conversion therapy will need treatment for post traumatic stress disorder

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Speaker 2: and post religious trauma. In a recent Australian study, Australian

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Speaker 2: LGBTQ plus youth aged fourteen to twenty one years who

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Speaker 2: were exposed to conversion practices were around four and a

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Speaker 2: half times more likely to have experienced homophobic, physical and

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Speaker 2: verbal harassment than those who did not, and three times

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Speaker 2: more likely to have experienced sexual harassment. They were also

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Speaker 2: at least one and a half times more likely to

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Speaker 2: have a mental health diagnosis and three times more likely

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Speaker 2: to have PTSD diagnosis. They were also at an increased

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Speaker 2: risk of homelessness, particularly on the basis of being LGBTQ plus.

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Speaker 2: Note that the trauma from religion based conversion practices is

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Speaker 2: distinct from and compounds already established trauma related to heteronormativity, transphobia,

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Speaker 2: and homophobia. In addition to these harms, identified further negative

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Speaker 2: impacts anger as a response to deceptive claims and mistreatment,

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Speaker 2: grief at loss of times, opportunity and youth, increased sense

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Speaker 2: of shame, escalation of high risk sexual behavior, and impairment

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Speaker 2: of self concept due to hyatrogenic counseling practices.

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Speaker 3: YEP.

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Speaker 1: A statistical breakdown of the harms of conversion therapy from

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Speaker 1: glad dot org San Francisco State University found that, compared

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Speaker 1: with LGBTQ young people who were not rejected or were

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Speaker 1: only a little rejected by their parents and caregivers because

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Speaker 1: of their gay or transgender identity, highly rejected to LGBTQ

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Speaker 1: people were eight point four times more likely to report

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Speaker 1: having attempted suicide, five point nine times more likely to

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Speaker 1: report high levels of depression, three point four times more

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Speaker 1: likely to use illegal drugs, three point four times more

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Speaker 1: likely to be at high risk of HIV and STDs.

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Speaker 2: So now we want to make a distinction in that

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Speaker 2: not all religious organizations approve of this practice. The churches

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Speaker 2: we mentioned in part one of the specific episode would

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Speaker 2: be included in those who would be against this type

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Speaker 2: of therapy, and many of the most spoken out again

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Speaker 2: to reaffirm their position. As a topic is still being debated,

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Speaker 2: like I've found organizations that had actual statements on their size.

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Speaker 2: We do not condone this, and we think a ban

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Speaker 2: is necessary.

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Speaker 1: But there are many who oppose a complete ban on

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Speaker 1: conversion therapy, using the First Amendment as a basis on

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Speaker 1: why it should not be completely banned. Religious outlets argue

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Speaker 1: that these types of bands target Christian ministries. Here's a

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Speaker 1: quote from Premier Christianity. There is no doubt that Christian

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Speaker 1: pastoral ministry is being targeted by activists in this area.

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Speaker 1: All the evangelical organizations who have encouraged responding to the

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Speaker 1: consultation recognize this. This very real threat is why organizations

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Speaker 1: that have up to now been quiet on conversion therapy

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Speaker 1: are now suddenly speaking out about it. Pastoral ministry is

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Speaker 1: a private, consensual conversation, but activists want to criminalize pastoral

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Speaker 1: ministry for people struggling with sexual ur gender identity issues.

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Speaker 1: Prayer is also for activists.

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Speaker 2: Right, So, as we talked about earlier, this is where

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Speaker 2: it's turning it and flipping it on a script, and

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Speaker 2: I think it's important that we pay attention. I hate

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Speaker 2: that I clicked onto this to look at this, and

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Speaker 2: my algorithm is a truly messed up from now on.

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Speaker 2: I'm so sad, But this is how the rhetorics are turning.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not saying prayer is a bad thing and

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Speaker 2: that no one should be praying. That has never been

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Speaker 2: a thing. That is a never thing. Have we talked

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Speaker 2: about separation of state and church and state? Yes, because

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Speaker 2: even in the breakdown, like different denominations of a specific

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Speaker 2: religion are arguing with each other, So why the hell

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Speaker 2: are we going to allow for something when people can't

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Speaker 2: in that organization. I can't even agree with what it is.

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Speaker 2: But that's again a whole different side note for me

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Speaker 2: not to be too obvious, but can we once again

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Speaker 2: agree that this usage of First Amendment defense seems to

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Speaker 2: be really one sided as per usual, like Florida education

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Speaker 2: including colleges being stripped completely a factual information for being divisive.

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Speaker 2: But hey, I guess again, I keep going on these

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Speaker 2: sides because I'm just like, what it? This is why

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Speaker 2: we say this is all connected and this is not

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Speaker 2: just about one thing. This is not just about the

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Speaker 2: queer community once again, and this is the idea that

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Speaker 2: talk therapy is just Christian counseling. And don't get me wrong,

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying talk therapy is not a thing, But

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Speaker 2: what I'm talking about is it being manipulated. And when

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Speaker 2: it comes to unlicensed professionals try to make take on

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Speaker 2: mental health services and say that they are ordained and

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Speaker 2: it doesn't hurt anything is very untrue. And I say,

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Speaker 2: this is a person who went through Christian counseling by

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Speaker 2: people who were not counselors, and I'm like, what the

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Speaker 2: hell is happening and being discharged after three weeks of like, oh,

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Speaker 2: you should be a counselor ma'am.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Different times again. Please, for the love of Jesus, if

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Speaker 2: you want to know more about what we're talking about,

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Speaker 2: as we're talking about this whole mental health services slash

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Speaker 2: mentoring kind of can be said, please refer to our

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Speaker 2: Purity Culture and Religious Trauma episode because it's in depth,

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Speaker 2: is traumatic, but it's very honest. And here's one more

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Speaker 2: quote that I've found disturbing from that same article. Any

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Speaker 2: government intervention to ban conversion therapy will lead to a

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Speaker 2: chilling effect on conversations or discussions about sexual or gender identities.

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Speaker 2: People will fear saying what they really think. As it

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Speaker 2: stands today, Christians are often afraid to express their support

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Speaker 2: of biblical sexual morality. They avoid at talking about it,

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Speaker 2: and sadly, churches often avoid at preaching or teaching about it,

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Speaker 2: even though it is perhaps the biggest cultural change that

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Speaker 2: the Church faces in the UK in the present generation.

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Speaker 2: A new law will only exacerbate this problem and cause

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Speaker 2: people to be even more cautious about expressing Christian views

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Speaker 2: on sexual morality. The culture at large will also become

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Speaker 2: more antagonistic towards biblical sexual morality and accuse people expressing

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Speaker 2: an orthodox a position of being pro conversion therapy or

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Speaker 2: even of engaging in conversion therapy. This chilling effect is

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Speaker 2: harmful to the Gospel. Therefore, any Christian should strongly oppose

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Speaker 2: government intervention in conversion therapy in principle. So oddly they

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Speaker 2: do want a separation of church and state here, but

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Speaker 2: not when it comes to licensed therapy and professions, which,

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Speaker 2: by the way, the Supreme Court in the US shut

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Speaker 2: down at one point in time saying that professional people

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Speaker 2: can have a right to freedom of speech. That's a

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Speaker 2: whole other conversation we're going to come down to in

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Speaker 2: a minute. I don't know. Maybe it's it's different in

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Speaker 2: the UK, and I know we have people in the

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Speaker 2: UK listening, so let me know and this is true

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Speaker 2: for them. But I haven't seen many people in the

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Speaker 2: country that feel quote afraid to express their support of

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Speaker 2: biblical sexual morality here, as in fact it's the opposite.

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Speaker 2: This level of hypocrisy makes makes me want to throw things.

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Speaker 2: Anny makes me want to throw things. This is why

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Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, we're only doing small We're only doing

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Speaker 2: a small bit this time. I feel like that's probably

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Speaker 2: everything every time I say it. But the conversation about

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Speaker 2: the fact that Christians this is that whole level of

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Speaker 2: making sure Christians feel like they're being persecuted so they

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Speaker 2: have to fight harder and louder and to remember, this

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Speaker 2: is what the Bible told you, that they were going

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Speaker 2: to come after us, and we're being persecuted here, instead

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Speaker 2: of talking about the fact that no, we would never.

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Speaker 2: The law is never like someone asking questions was never

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Speaker 2: the problem. It was literally holding people down, screaming in

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Speaker 2: their faces and telling them if you have sex with

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Speaker 2: the opposite sex, then you'll be fine when rhetoric like

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Speaker 2: like even, but let's be real honest. What they want

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Speaker 2: to say is that there's a stark difference from the

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Speaker 2: old school. When I say old school like early late

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Speaker 2: nineteen hundreds and early nineteen hundred's method of a conversion

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Speaker 2: therapy to today's therapy is completely different, and that it's

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Speaker 2: not as dramatic and then nactuality it is, but in

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Speaker 2: a different level, especially to young kids.

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Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, I mean, and like I know we've said

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Speaker 1: it in several of these religious episodes, but the idea

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Speaker 1: as a kid that you will go to hell, that's

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Speaker 1: it's traumatic. Like I don't know how else to tell you.

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Speaker 1: We can have a conversation. I do believe there are

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Speaker 1: pluses for positive spirituality religion, but for a lot of us,

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Speaker 1: it's raised in this kind of like Western Christian world

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Speaker 1: that is a traumatic thing in itself. And if what

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Speaker 1: is telling you is you have to go get this

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Speaker 1: really traumatic something is wrong with you and we're going

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Speaker 1: to have to fix you or else this eternal health

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Speaker 1: fire is what's waiting for you.

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Speaker 2: Right And if you don't and if you don't come

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Speaker 2: to us to help us fix you. Then you're not

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Speaker 2: a part of our community, like both of those things,

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Speaker 2: and you're not going to be accepted by any of

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Speaker 2: your people, including your parents possibly. And by the way,

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Speaker 2: literally laws and policies are quickly following the idea of

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Speaker 2: morality and it has been changed very fast, like white

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Speaker 2: Christian nationalism has taken over. And we're watching, like begging

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Speaker 2: people to realize what's going on, and many of us do,

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Speaker 2: and there seems to be so little that we can

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Speaker 2: do in the background. And even worse, this is being

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Speaker 2: used to oppress this law, it's being used to oppress

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Speaker 2: the marginalized. They're trying so hard to convert like this

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Speaker 2: whole conversation like we're the minority here. No, no, and

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Speaker 2: actually they may be, but they've got the most power.

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Speaker 1: Right well, and that's one of them. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't have to tell you or anyone else. So that's

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Speaker 1: one of the most frustrating things about this whole conversation

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Speaker 1: to me, is like the hypocrisy of it.

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Speaker 3: It's just the like, oh, so.

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Speaker 1: You'll fix this person, which is essentially destroying a part

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Speaker 1: of them through trauma or like making them feel that

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Speaker 1: they have to cover it up or go to.

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Speaker 2: Hell, or they have to hate themselves?

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Speaker 1: Are they up to hate themselves? And you want to

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Speaker 1: tell me all about how such a loving religion and

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Speaker 1: it's so about like not judging. Yeah, yeah, yep. And

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Speaker 1: here's another example of this flip we're talking about and

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Speaker 1: fear mongering from Christianity today. As the practice itself has

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Speaker 1: all but disappeared referring to conversion therapy, public campaigns to

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Speaker 1: ban it are growing around the world. Some Christians worry

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Speaker 1: that new regulations with poor definitions will take aim at

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Speaker 1: what the UK Evangelical Alliance calls everyday aspects of church life.

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Speaker 1: A new law in Victoria, Australia, for example, will ban

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Speaker 1: religious practices, including but not limited to, a prayer based

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Speaker 1: practice aimed at changing or suppressing the sexual orientation. The

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Speaker 1: government also says conversion therapy is illegal with or without

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Speaker 1: the person's consent. It is not yet clear how the law,

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Speaker 1: which goes into effect in February twenty twenty two, will

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Speaker 1: be applied, but it could criminalize praying for people who

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Speaker 1: ask for prayer. I'm so sorry, but just the idea

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Speaker 1: of somebody out there praying for me, like go.

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Speaker 2: Hopefully never had someone tell you that I have.

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Speaker 3: But like the idea that someone's out there just.

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Speaker 2: Any my parents are praying for me to turn away

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Speaker 2: from a feminist ways. My mother, right, you think I'm

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Speaker 2: getting No, I don't, absolutely not. I don't think that

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Speaker 2: this is this is an active thing. I'm I'm sure

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Speaker 2: she has requested prayer in her women's grap Yes, who

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Speaker 2: are who I have friends of their kids they have

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Speaker 2: prayed for. I know they have because I know that's

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Speaker 2: what my mother would do.

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Speaker 1: That's what I was kind of laughing at, though, is

435
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 1: that it's like some going to like a prayer group

436
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: and being like, it wouldn't be my mom in this case,

437
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 1: but I know someone it might be who was afraid

438
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 1: of my mom's who would.

439
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 3: Be like, we gotta pray for those girls and me

440
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 3: never knowing it. I guess there's something kind of comical about.

441
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 2: Here's the thing about this prayer and karma and good vibes.

442
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 2: All those things are great and people believe that. I

443
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 2: believe in several days, I believe like there's a level

444
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 2: for me personally. But yeah, having like there's this like

445
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 2: moment of like, wait, to me, if I was a

446
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 2: prayer person, I would be praying for you. I'm just

447
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 2: more disgusted in trying to figure out why you're like

448
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 2: this as opposed to like, like true, yeah, it's literally,

449
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: uh have I'm pretty sure I can almost say pray

450
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 2: for Samantha she's lost her way and that she will

451
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 2: find it again, and that she would see God and

452
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 2: find the find the right path again, like guaranteed. Those

453
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 2: words are all up in that. And we also go

454
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: ahead and talk about the fact that it says they

455
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 2: really are harping on the idea of prayer and leaving

456
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 2: out the part about like praying because what we see

457
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 2: when we talk about praying over people, and especially when

458
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 2: it was like the church I grew up in, it

459
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 2: was like they weren't violent, but there was a lot

460
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,479
Speaker 2: of touching. There was a lot of loud noises, there

461
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 2: was a lot of screaming. Like I had friends who

462
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 2: would come to my church and would be scared during

463
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 2: our prayer service. So I mean, think about that, especially

464
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 2: when they're like trying to pray a demon out of

465
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: you essentially.

466
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean it's just kind of a running joke.

467
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: Like the whole thoughts and prayers is.

468
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 2: Like yeah, how effective has it been?

469
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 3: This is the bare minimum we can do, Like we're

470
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 3: praying for you?

471
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 2: Cool?

472
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 3: What else?

473
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 2: It does also remind me of like Saved, in which

474
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 2: Manny Moore's characters like I'm filled with Aali goes and

475
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 2: the slams, like throws the Bible in this girl's face

476
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 2: and it hit him in the face. I'm like, that's

477
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 2: the level of what I like, this is what we're

478
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 2: talking about. I'm like, yeah, let's not doing what you do.

479
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: Quit trying to twist this right, right, and and that

480
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 1: is true, like it's usually used because you can't like

481
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: explain it. Yeah, it's like, well, I'm praying for you, okay.

482
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 2: Great, what else have you done for us?

483
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: Right? And again this plays on the idea that the

484
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: government is trying to ban prayer to victimize Christians instead

485
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: of predicting LGBTQ plus youth. I think a lot of

486
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: us probably have experienced the anger at people saying like

487
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: I don't want to say and God, we trust in

488
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: our whatever government things.

489
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 3: And they're like, well, they're punishing me right, well right.

490
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 2: The fact that when people want to take a knee

491
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 2: during yes like that, or not want to say a

492
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 2: prayer like or not the Christian there were places that

493
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 2: would do the Christian pledge to like there's so many things, okay,

494
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 2: But it is this type of rhetoric or in rephrasing

495
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 2: that is allowing for practices like conversion therapy to try

496
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 2: to creep back into present day methods. And I honestly,

497
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 2: I don't know why I said the word creep, because

498
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 2: it's not creeping. They are doing it very openly and

499
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 2: we're seeing it. In fact, just recently, two councilors in

500
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 2: Florida were able to win a lawsuit stating that the

501
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 2: local conversion therapy band violated their First Amendment rights in

502
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 2: free speech. And this was April of twenty twenty three,

503
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 2: so literally a few months ago. Not a good sign.

504
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: Not a good sign. In twenty twenty there was a

505
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 2: ruling that granted a preliminary injunction to stop enforcing the

506
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 2: conversion ban in Florida, Georgia, and Alabama. Again, this is

507
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 2: based on the idea that it violates free speech. Here's

508
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 2: a quote from the Washington Post about it. In America,

509
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 2: twenty six states and the District of Columbia at least

510
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 2: partially banned using this damaging practice on minors. When Auto

511
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 2: and Hamilton's case was heard by the US Court of

512
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 2: Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit in twenty twenty, the court

513
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 2: decided that Auto and Hamilton suffered quote content based regulations

514
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 2: of speech. According to Judge Britt Grant, this case also

515
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 2: prompted the court to grant a preliminary injunction preventing the

516
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 2: enforcement of city and county wide conversion therapy bans in

517
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 2: Florida as well as Alabama and Georgia. I feel like

518
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 2: that should be a real big ringer of what's happened

519
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 2: in the last few years and what they're ramping up to.

520
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 3: Yep.

521
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: And we also want to note that just because the

522
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: state may have banned the practice, it doesn't mean organizations

523
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: have adhered to it. In a twenty twenty one investigation

524
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: by Open Democracy, a woman went undercover and found counselors

525
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: in some of the banned states. Here's what they wrote

526
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: about it. The counselors were described as offering treatment for

527
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: homosexuality issues and gender identity issues on a US wide

528
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 1: list provided by Focus on the Family, a conservative Christian

529
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: group that is pursuing similar anti LGBTQ activities. In Costa Rica,

530
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: where its Latin American office is located. Our investigation reveals,

531
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: in one instance, a counselor operating in Virginia told her

532
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,959
Speaker 1: undercover reporter that LGBTQ people were unhealthy and that our

533
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: reporter should not eat until she reached the point of

534
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: seeing herself at the cross with Christ hanging, dying, bleeding,

535
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: because that's life changing. A counselor in Colorado promised to

536
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: treat unwanted same sex attraction, an expression frequently used to

537
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: disguise conversion therapy but rejected by LGBTQ plus communities. Leading

538
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: health and legal experts said that Open Democracy's findings were

539
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: blatantly unethical and graphic examples of conversion therapy that broke

540
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 1: local laws and raised concerns about the effectiveness of existing

541
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: anti conversion therapy legislation.

542
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 2: Right and as we're talking about this, yeah, these examples

543
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 2: are not great. So take care of yourself, and the

544
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 2: report continues. In another investigation, our reporter, claiming to be

545
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 2: at age seventeen, had several online paid sessions with these

546
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 2: two practitioners who are operating in Virginia and Colorado, two

547
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 2: of the twenty states who are offering conversion therapy to

548
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 2: minors is banned Virginia and Colorado. Measures share the same

549
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 2: definition of conversion therapy any practice or treatment that seeks, attempts,

550
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 2: or purports to change in individual's sexual orientation or gender identity,

551
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 2: including efforts to change behaviors or gender expressions, or to

552
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 2: eliminate or reduce sexual, romantic attractions or feelings towards individuals

553
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 2: of the same gender. The first of the two professionals

554
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 2: told Open Democracy's reporter that he was currently based in Virginia,

555
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 2: although he was listed on the website as being in

556
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 2: another nearby state where these practices are not restricted. During

557
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 2: the first session, the therapist told our reporter that she

558
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 2: had to suppress homosexual desires, read the Bible, and stay

559
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,240
Speaker 2: away from any Christian group that affirms gay sexuality. Quote

560
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 2: They're not going to tell you that your depression, your anxiety,

561
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 2: all that is not going to go away if you

562
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 2: pursue the gay lifestyle, he said. The therapist also described

563
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 2: LGBTQ communities as unhealthy, claiming that quote the suicide rate

564
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 2: is considerably higher than the national average, he continued, the

565
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 2: sexual assault rate, the crime rate, all that is higher.

566
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 2: The transmitted diseases. Those numbers are higher in the gay community.

567
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 2: All those numbers are out there. Focus on the Family

568
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 2: has done those kinds of studies. The therapists also claimed

569
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 2: that in their lifetime, gay men have an average one

570
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: thousand partners and lesbians five hundred. Very succinct numbers, I

571
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 2: have to say so myself. Yeah, okay, And according to

572
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 2: Sex and the City, so do the heterosexual women.

573
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 3: To any like sitcom weekly sitcom?

574
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah.

575
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,839
Speaker 2: So obviously these are examples of what's happening. And though

576
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 2: the early articles from the Christian outlets imply incarceration and

577
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 2: loss of freedom for violating these bands, that's actually not true.

578
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 2: The repercussions aren't that harsh, and the lawsuits actually maybe

579
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: more damaging either way. So there's I could not really

580
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 2: find what the finds were. I think for the most part,

581
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 2: it's like malpractice suits and you get a censure from

582
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 2: your organization, and if you're a religious organization, you may

583
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 2: be fined, but you're not going to jail. This is

584
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 2: not a thing the and as we see, organizations like

585
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 2: Focus on the Family have made a huge network as

586
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 2: in fact they do have I think a network of

587
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 2: like seven hundred counselors that does just this type of

588
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 2: work where they do the telehealth type of thing to

589
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 2: get around the bands or to violate those bands. And

590
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 2: we see that this level of like guilt in condemnation

591
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 2: is heavy, and that whole line of like picture Jesus

592
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 2: at the cross and use I used that to teach

593
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 2: kids to be guilty because I had so much shame

594
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 2: for so long for just existing. And that's that level again,

595
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 2: like being a different identity and being born loving someone

596
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 2: that people are saying you're not supposed to. When I

597
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 2: say loving someone, I'm talking about age appropriate consent. Don't

598
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 2: want to hear anything from NAMBLA, but like all those

599
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 2: things like and being told, oh if you don't if

600
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 2: you live by like that, that means you don't love

601
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 2: Jesus or this thing who did all the huge things,

602
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 2: which by the way, again were done by hypocritical religious

603
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,760
Speaker 2: people as a reminder but they don't want to remember

604
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 2: that or whatever. And we didn't really kind of talk

605
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 2: about the fact that there is a networks like this

606
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 2: for other types of religious organizations, like Catholics very heavily

607
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 2: into this as well. Some Jewish organizations are heavily into

608
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 2: this as well. We've seen all around the world where

609
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 2: they have been influenced by this, and the persecution of

610
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 2: the queer community is intense and probably follow along the

611
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: nineteen fifties type of methods of conversion therapy, which you

612
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,280
Speaker 2: know some countries have finally caught on and banned entirely.

613
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 2: So yeay, But again, if it wasn't clear, these bands

614
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 2: are in place for people under the age of eighteen,

615
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 2: So right now what we're talking about is conversion therapy

616
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 2: being ban for youths, which I don't know. It should

617
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 2: be easy to follow if you're in Florida, as we're

618
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 2: not supposed to be talking about gender or sexual orientation

619
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 2: at all, but yet it's not banned there as in fact,

620
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 2: you know they turned that over so interesting again.

621
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, Also, ageists just want to put in there because

622
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: the assumption is that by a certain age you'll know

623
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 1: not true.

624
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 2: I think it's the idea is that they don't want

625
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 2: to like it should be banned altogether, but for so

626
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 2: pretty young because like parents are like physically pushing them

627
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 2: into those types of things, and then the whole camps

628
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 2: that we've seen, But it is right, Yeah, both can

629
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 2: be true. And this is something that will continue to

630
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 2: be challenged. The most extremist rhetoric continues, we can guarantee

631
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,280
Speaker 2: other lawsuits will follow. So I know in twenty twenty,

632
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 2: we had a lawsuit in both DC and I thinking

633
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 2: a little earlier in California, which were overturned because they

634
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 2: were trying to say again free speech. But both DC

635
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 2: and California said, based on the whole county and city

636
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 2: markers that they can control how businesses are run and

637
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 2: how professionalism is run, which is true. But yeah, this

638
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 2: is definitely going on a national level again, and we

639
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 2: should definitely watch it because this has been in play

640
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 2: for years. Like some of these articles we talked about

641
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 2: where they were fighting this obviously earlier than twenty twenty one.

642
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 2: Some of them were in twenty seventeen, some of them

643
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 2: were twenty fifteen, and there's tons being released now talking

644
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 2: about this is going. This is literally persecution of Christians.

645
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 2: That's what they're trying.

646
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 1: To say, right, And I do want to add in here,

647
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 1: I find it kind of humorous slash very insulting, slash terrible,

648
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: but kind of humorous that it I feel like the

649
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 1: why they try to tell is that this is like

650
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: the natural thing, this is how it should be. But

651
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: what they really mean is we want white Christians to

652
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 1: have babies in this very certain sense, because I find

653
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 1: it really funny as an asexual person where I'm like,

654
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: I don't want to have sex. That seems to be

655
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 1: kind of your message, and they're like, no, you need

656
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: to have sex and have a baby with a man.

657
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 3: But you told me that sex is bad. You've been

658
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 3: telling me this whole time. And they're like, no, wait

659
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 3: a minute.

660
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 1: Only this one kind is really good and actually Christian,

661
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,439
Speaker 1: you need to be doing that thing.

662
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 3: Yeah. It's just kind of like.

663
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 2: Hm, right, yeah, and definitely like the result of like

664
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 2: being gay, the opposite of being gay is having heterosexual sex,

665
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,359
Speaker 2: and that would definitely there were examples, and I didn't

666
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,320
Speaker 2: read this is what I was telling Annie. I was like,

667
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 2: it's gonna be this short because and it ended up

668
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 2: not being short, of course, but they're going to be

669
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,879
Speaker 2: shorter because I couldn't go through all the stories because

670
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 2: I would say stories about men and women being told

671
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 2: if you come over, we're gonna do exorcism, and I'll

672
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 2: show you why this is pleasurable. Essentially trying to have

673
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 2: sex with them to convert them, and that is you

674
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 2: would think that was from the nineteen fifties. No, that's

675
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 2: happening today. And as we know, as we see more

676
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 2: and more people in the ministry doing some very suss things,

677
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 2: this is right up the alley. Again, not saying that

678
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 2: all the people that are in the ministry or who

679
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 2: are doing this are abusers. That's not what we're saying,

680
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 2: but we're saying that this tactic is still happening today, right.

681
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 1: And I was talking with you about when I first,

682
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: like early days, when I first was like, you know, hey,

683
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 1: I think I'm a sexual. Somebody wrote in and was

684
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 1: very kind, but she was like, I kind of find

685
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 1: it hurtful that you identify this way, but you don't

686
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: use the A in the LGBT because we're often ignored,

687
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: and we've already done episodes on that. There's a lot

688
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 1: of like complications with that whole thing, and there's definitely

689
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,399
Speaker 1: problems with it. I was not offended. I got where

690
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: she was coming from. But she she brought up like,

691
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 1: have you heard of corrective rape? And someone else recently

692
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 1: brought that up with me, which is a thing which

693
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 1: is similar to what you're talking about. Where it's like,

694
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 1: essentially we're going to rape you, right and that will

695
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: fix you.

696
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 2: Right.

697
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's it's really gross and it's it's happening now.

698
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: It is not something from the past, right. Yes, Yes,

699
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: we still have more to talk about. We still have

700
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: more to talk about. Yes, there will be a part

701
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: three to this mini series already, it's like a subpart

702
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 1: or just branching.

703
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 2: Yes, it's growing, is having his own babies.

704
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 3: It is y. There we go.

705
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 1: But that's what we have to say for now. So listeners,

706
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 1: if you have any thoughts about this, you can email us.

707
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 1: Our email is Stepania mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.

708
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at mostuff Podcasts, or

709
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 1: on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I've Never told you.

710
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 1: We do have a tea public store with some merchandise.

711
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 1: We also have a book that you can pre order

712
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,240
Speaker 1: in audio form or physical form at stuff you should

713
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: read Books dot com. It is coming out within the

714
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: month this of August.

715
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 3: Twenty twenty three.

716
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 1: So thanks as always too, our super producer Christina, our

717
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: executive producer Maya, and our contributor Joey.

718
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 3: Thank you and thanks to you for listening.

719
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:58,839
Speaker 1: Stuff I Never Told You production of iHeartRadio. For more

720
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 1: podcasts in my heart Radio, check out their heart Radio

721
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Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or rebul listen to favorite shows