1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: We've just captured an al Qaeda guy in the field 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: and I'm there to talk to him. And then he 3 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: basically said, I am a warrior of God in you 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: are nothing, and eventually we're going to win, and we 5 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: are going to win because we are more committed than 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: you are. I am willing to kill myself and live 7 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: here in Afghanistan and fight you for the next twenty years, 8 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: and you're not that dedicated. And I thought, holy shit, 9 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 1: he's right. I'm John Ceipher and I'm Jerry o'she. 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 2: I served in the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, 11 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 2: living undercover all around the world. 12 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: And in my thirty three years with the CIA, I 13 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. 14 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 2: Although we don't usually look at it this way, we 15 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 2: created conspiracies. 16 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: In our operations. We got people to believe things that 17 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: weren't true. 18 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 2: Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the 19 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 2: news almost every day. 20 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: We'll break them down for you to determine what whether 21 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: they could be real or whether we're being manipulated. 22 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 2: Welcome to Mission Implausible. 23 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 3: So, Jerry, you have told me how you got recruited, 24 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 3: and it always blows my mind because it is not normal. 25 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was a hippie. 26 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 4: I was. 27 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: I was. It's a long story, but I smuggled at 28 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: one point cars into Iran when the Shah was still 29 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: there and ended up smoking dope in Afghanistan, never thinking that, geez, 30 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: thirty five years from now, when I'm balding and and 31 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: got three kids and married, they're going to take that 32 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: experience and they're going to send me back here to 33 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: chase some six foot five Saudi guy. 34 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 3: So you were a criminal, sort of small un. 35 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: I didn't break American laws, that's right. 36 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 3: So why would CIA want someone who's smuggling cars into Iran? 37 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 2: Even the Iranians caught him and threw them in jail 38 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 2: just to they did. 39 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: They threw me in jail for a little bit. But 40 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: I'm surprised. That's actually a really good question. Oh for 41 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: what John and I do did in operations, we're looking 42 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: for people who don't fit the mold. We're looking for, 43 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: you know, a diversity of experience, and we're looking for 44 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: people with initiative and innovation who can like figure stuff 45 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: out that no one else can. And you know, I lived, 46 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: I lived abroad and I basically lived as a German 47 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: and I spent years in India and Middle East Africa, 48 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: And when I came back, the agency asked me if 49 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: I wanted to come on, and yeah, they sent me 50 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: back to all those places where I was a hippie 51 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: with long hair. 52 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 2: I think you're looking for people who are really interested 53 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 2: in foreign cultures. There used to be the story like 54 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:36,959 Speaker 2: for you know, back in the USS stage, you're looking 55 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 2: for a PhD who can win a bar fight. Yeah, 56 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 2: you want people who are comfortable operating on the street, 57 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 2: making choices on their own, but also aware of what's happening, reading, 58 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 2: keeping up with things, interested in foreign culture, interested in 59 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 2: political and national security issues of the day. So it's 60 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 2: it is a weird profession, but it's great fun. 61 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 1: The first place I got punched in the face in 62 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: a bar fight was in Istanbul, And what I learned 63 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:01,399 Speaker 1: is you ever want to be in a bar fight 64 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: because even if you win, you're still not winning, right, 65 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 1: you still got splitlip or a broken nose. 66 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 2: You got to win the bar fight, gotcha. 67 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 3: You got to win the bar fight. 68 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 2: And often the best way to win a bar fight 69 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: is a cheap shot, just a little Yeah. 70 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: That's right. 71 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 3: Now do operatives like you guys officers. Are you just 72 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 3: also looking out for potential Americans wandering around or is 73 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 3: there like a special team that is trying to find 74 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 3: car smugglers and recruit them. 75 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 2: I think in the early days of CIA, it was 76 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 2: very much word of mouth and who you went to 77 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 2: school with and that type of thing. If you met 78 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 2: someone overseas who seemed interesting, you could suggest them to 79 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 2: the CIA and they might get in touch with them. Nowadays, 80 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 2: it's much more like other jobs. As people come to it, 81 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 2: there's a website, there's a larger recruitment center that follows 82 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: up with people who express an interest. There's advertisements because 83 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 2: there's lots of different parts of the CIA too, not 84 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 2: just the operative part, and so I think it's more 85 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 2: certainly professionalized now. 86 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: They do look still for the same things, though. You're 87 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: looking for people who can navigate and are comfortable with ambiguity, 88 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: and they're also looking for people who understand that, you know, 89 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: you can think two separate things at the same time. 90 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: It's like you have to obey American law, but you 91 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: understand that it's moral on occasion to break other people's laws. 92 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 3: So you've kind of told me, is there an age 93 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 3: limit or can I just send in my application. 94 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: But if you think CIA guys are weird, you should 95 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 1: talk to Congressman. I mean, those guys are an interesting 96 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: group of cats. 97 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 3: Right, let's get to your pal, Denver Wriggleman. 98 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 2: So today we have Denver Riggleman. So for people who 99 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 2: don't know Denver, he was a former Air Force intelligence 100 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 2: officer and Republican congressman from Virginia. More recently, he worked 101 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 2: on the House Select Committee looking at the January sixth attack. 102 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 2: And one of the things that he's done from his 103 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 2: background working in the Air Force and looking at sort 104 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 2: of data analysis and things, he's tried to use data 105 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 2: to dig into some of these problems. So some people 106 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 2: may remember he's one of the only members of Congress 107 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 2: that has spoken up on the floor against QAnon. So 108 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: there's a lot of stuff we could talk about. 109 00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: Denver. 110 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 2: We'really glad to have you. Thanks, thanks having me. 111 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 4: Really it's an honor. Yeah, it's just funny you're talking 112 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 4: about QAnon and being the one to speak on the floor. 113 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 4: I remember that day because it was supposed to be 114 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 4: a lot of people with me, like I was. I 115 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 4: had co sponsors on the bill right. I was the 116 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 4: Republican lead that I remember. I got on the floor 117 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 4: and I look behind me, but on the side where 118 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 4: the Dems were, you know, there was all kinds of 119 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 4: support structure there for them, a bunch of their colleagues. 120 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 4: I'm on the right side of the aisle and I'm 121 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 4: sitting at the lectern and I'm looking around and you 122 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 4: could have heard crickets vain. It was. It was a 123 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 4: lonely day. And I remember coming off the floor and 124 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 4: even the Deputy whip at the time, he goes, hey, 125 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 4: denver Man, I think this is a First Amendment issue. 126 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 4: I said, well, no, shit, it's a first Amendment issue. 127 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 4: But I could use my first Amendment as a cudgel 128 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 4: against things that I think are ridiculous. And I'm a congressman, 129 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 4: for God's sakes. And he said, you know, I just 130 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 4: think you're completely overreacting, and I think this is nuts. 131 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 4: But I had seen the data, guys, so I stuck 132 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 4: to my guns. I think my own staff thought I'd 133 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 4: lost my mind. But you know, when I gave my 134 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 4: farewell speech on December tenth, I believe of twenty twenty, 135 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 4: I really like it in because at that point, it 136 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 4: was overwhelming amount of data that we were seeing on 137 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 4: the social channels indicating there could be violenced by January sixth, 138 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 4: and of course I hated to be validated. 139 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: You've been around for a long time. I just want 140 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: to know, when do you think Colin Crazy became crazy? 141 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: Do most of your colleagues in the house really buy 142 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 1: into q and on or they just don't want to 143 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: say it to piss off the people that claim to 144 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: whatever QAnon is. 145 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,359 Speaker 4: I think the first thing is, at the beginning, I 146 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 4: believe that a lot of my colleagues were QAnon adjacent 147 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 4: and didn't know it. Right, there was already this sort 148 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 4: of baseline belief in the deep state and the globalist takeover, right, 149 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 4: and a lot of people still had the Hillary Clinton 150 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 4: emails thing in mind. There was still this sort of underlying, 151 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 4: i would say, belief system that was sort of baked 152 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 4: in from the Tea Party movement that the Democrats had 153 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 4: some kind of nefarious sexual activities going on that was 154 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 4: somehow funding their activities to take over the United States 155 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 4: using globalist principles, right, And so I think there is 156 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 4: that's always sort of been underlying the sort of the 157 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 4: evangelical portion of this. I think the second thing is 158 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 4: is that as it started to continue, I think they 159 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 4: saw that the base was very, very powerful. I think 160 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 4: they became afraid that they could lose their positions, but 161 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 4: still didn't take it seriously because they just didn't understand data. 162 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 4: A lot of the guys in Congress, this is their 163 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 4: biggest job. I mean, John and Jerry, this is what 164 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 4: they've aspired to. I had one person tell me like, 165 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 4: I have reached the pinnacle, and he's in his thirties 166 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 4: and for me going to Congress, I went to much 167 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 4: fuller parties in Oman in the early two thousand, so 168 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 4: I'm like, what the I hate this place right, this 169 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 4: is the worst job ever had. And it was I 170 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 4: tell people I got fired from the worst job I 171 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 4: ever had, you know. I think the third thing is there. 172 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 4: I would say sixty to seventy percent of the Republican 173 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 4: Conference are like, Eh, it's probably nuts, But listen, cowardice 174 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 4: and winning elections go hand in hand. And I would 175 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 4: humbly submit that in a lot of ways now, I 176 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 4: think integrity and winning elections are mutually exclusive. So what 177 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 4: you have to do is you've got to play to 178 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 4: the base at that time based on the hyperbole you're 179 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 4: seeing fun raising and the leader of the party at 180 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 4: that time. If you're not in that political current, you 181 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 4: get taken out. And you know, even me, you know, 182 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 4: I fought with my incredible good looks in charisma I really. 183 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: Thought undeniable, undeniable. 184 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 4: I don't think I really had them because you know, 185 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 4: after I officiated the same sex wedding in summer of 186 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 4: twenty nineteen, QAnon came at me before anybody else. So 187 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 4: that's before anybody I was the first target of QAnon 188 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 4: adjacent you know, whack jobs. And I think that's what 189 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 4: you got with the GOP right now, is you got 190 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 4: the mob ruling roam. When it comes to some of 191 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 4: these crazy belief systems. 192 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 2: I sort of get the cynical part that they want 193 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 2: to win and we'll say anything to their base. I 194 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 2: think it's disgusting, and you're right. I would like to 195 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 2: take pride in my integrity. I would never say something 196 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 2: that I knew to be false. But what you suggest 197 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 2: also is that there's some true believers. 198 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 4: I think a lot of it is religion based, and 199 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 4: I think that's the thing that I've been trying to 200 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 4: be very careful with even with the books that I wrote. 201 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 4: You know my background. When I wrote the Breach, I 202 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 4: did go into my background as being raised very religious. 203 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 4: I sort of was also summarily sort of odd size 204 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 4: from the Freedom Caucus. Think about what you're talking to, right, 205 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 4: A formal Republican, never been in politics before. I was 206 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 4: told by my consultantsay, you're going to join the Freedom 207 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 4: Caucus and you'll win. I mean that my first political decision, right, John, 208 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 4: you said, rather have your integrity. I didn't want to 209 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 4: join the Freedom Caucus, but I made my first political 210 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 4: decision that really painted what happened to me never being 211 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 4: in politics. I remember my consultants said, you got to 212 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 4: be a little bit crazy to be crazier, and I'm like, well, 213 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 4: I'm a team player. Maybe I can get through this 214 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 4: and become independent later. Now you can't. 215 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 2: Let's take a break. We'll be right back. 216 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: And Rebecca. 217 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 4: But I think when you're talking about my first meeting 218 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 4: in the Freedom Caucus, I remember one of the members 219 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 4: of the Freedom Caucus wanted to actually apply legislation and 220 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 4: write it to stop a master algorithm that was executed 221 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 4: across all the platforms that only suppressed conservative voices. Now, guys, 222 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 4: I was Air Force Intelligence in NSA for sixteen years, 223 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 4: off and on, back and forth. Here I am forty 224 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 4: eight years old, forty nine years old, and I'm looking 225 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 4: at some buffoon talking about the master algorithm to suppress 226 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 4: all conservative voices across all platforms needs to be made illegal. 227 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 4: There is that old saying, right, you lose twenty IQ 228 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 4: points as soon as you're elected, and I think some 229 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 4: people maybe the tast sizes and it doubles every turn 230 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 4: they're in. 231 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: So I spent a lot of time in the Middle 232 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: East and long ago listening to Arab friends and colleagues 233 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: from Arab states. The conspiracy theories that they come out 234 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: with I thought were completely outlandish, And at the time, 235 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,719 Speaker 1: I thought, that's what's holding the society back. Rather than 236 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: looking at their own issues. They're blaming everything on Israel 237 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: and demonic forces and the West. And I thought, well, 238 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: we don't do that until the q Andon thing came along. 239 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering, sort of what is happening with our 240 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: society that we're unable to have educated, complex conversations about 241 00:10:55,720 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: problematic issues as opposed to with conspiracy theory. There's always 242 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: like you know, five guys in a room with a 243 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 1: plan or a master algorithm. There's always like this extremely 244 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: simplistic explanation to really complex issues. 245 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 4: I think if you think you have a direct line 246 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 4: to the supernatural, I think they're inclined to believe things 247 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 4: that are overly simplistic. What we didn't have in the past. 248 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 4: We had propaganda, We had all these things there, like well, Denver, 249 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 4: propaganda and disinformation has been around since the dawn of time. 250 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 4: Well yeah, but what hasn't been around is social media 251 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 4: and alternative media. And I think if you can self 252 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,079 Speaker 4: select your echo chambers, I think it's just a powerful 253 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 4: racalizing agent. And I always say that digital profits make 254 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 4: digital profits, and I think that hyperbole and outrage and 255 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 4: that simplistic view of good against evil where democrats or 256 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 4: people like me, you know, an independent now are somehow 257 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 4: part of this deep state cabal, or you're a globalist, 258 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 4: or you're trying to change the sexual orientation of children. 259 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 4: I was called the tool of the Antichrist. I was 260 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 4: called the general the Sodomite armies. I thought that was 261 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 4: pretty original, so, you know, and then I was accused 262 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 4: of laundering money for George Soros in my distilleries. 263 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,719 Speaker 1: If you had removed QAnon and you had put in 264 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: isis right or al Qaeda, they have the same beliefs. 265 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: This you know this the Jewish Cabal, George Soros, small 266 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: group of people. The CIA really runs things, sexualizing our children, 267 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: stealing our women, taking our faith. All those things, our 268 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: example are exactly to include. We don't want to pay taxes, 269 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: we want guns. We don't want the rule of law. 270 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: We want God's word rather than having a secular rule 271 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:35,559 Speaker 1: of law. 272 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 4: If you saw the language that we saw leading up 273 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 4: to January sixth, and it was say isis group or 274 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 4: some kind of Muslim extremist group, we'd have been on 275 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 4: that like stink on a monkey because it was so violent, 276 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 4: and it's just amazing to me that we weren't. 277 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 2: How did you get into this sort of world of 278 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 2: data and data analysis? Did it come from the Air Force? 279 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 4: I got married really young at nineteen, played a little 280 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 4: college football, did some powerlifting when a couple of state 281 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 4: powers championships, but lived in the basement. I got married 282 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 4: so young because I sort of got kicked out of 283 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 4: the Mormon missionary training center. I wasn't the best Mormon 284 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 4: So what happened really is that at twenty two my 285 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:12,839 Speaker 4: wife got pregnant. She goes, either you go to work 286 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 4: or I go to work. So three days later I 287 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 4: joined the Air Force. Then I had a captain named 288 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 4: Captain Shwang, the Shwinger, So he got a hold of 289 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 4: me and said, why aren't you an officer? Why don't 290 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 4: you go to school full time? And then when I 291 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 4: got into UVA by some kind of magic, when I 292 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 4: won a scholarship, you know, I go to UVA and 293 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,959 Speaker 4: then I ended up getting distinguished graduate and had the 294 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 4: number one GPA out of my class. But I was 295 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 4: too old to fly, and I became an intelligence officer, 296 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 4: and immediately they sent me to Mountain Home Air Force 297 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 4: Base and as the Air Expeditionary Wing, and we had 298 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 4: a fifteens of F sixteens and B one's. I didn't 299 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 4: know at the time they had a secret program with 300 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 4: another three letter agency combining national data sources with tactical 301 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 4: data sources. 302 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: How is it that you were able or not able 303 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 1: to communicate with people who were conspiracy theory minded? I mean, 304 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: how do you work with someone who thinks in a 305 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: completely different realm than you are, or someone who operates 306 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: on faith without evidence. 307 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 4: It's a difficult answer for me because it's so personal. 308 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 4: When I came out against Trump and q Andon so 309 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 4: violently in the middle of twenty twenty, you know, I 310 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 4: was disowned by the closest person you can't have to you, 311 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 4: not my wife, but my mom right, not really just 312 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 4: but so she wished I never won my election. It 313 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 4: was pretty brutal a lot of my family, and you know, 314 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 4: I head the conversation like this is the facts of 315 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 4: the matter. What I found out pretty quickly with her 316 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 4: and with other friends. I lost six friends of over 317 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 4: thirty years. Jary, Wow, When I said QAnon was basically 318 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 4: anti semitic, it went sideways so quickly for me and 319 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 4: my friendships. You wouldn't believe I mean, yeah, you would. 320 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 4: You would believe it was you're a piece of shit. 321 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 4: How dare you say this is anti Semitic? How dare 322 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 4: you say we're violent? And guys? I was right on 323 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 4: all of it, not even there's no question. I thought 324 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 4: the fact that was friends for thirty years, They're going 325 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 4: to listen to a guy who's who has my background 326 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 4: right now? I had people say denvers, it's futile I'm like, no, 327 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 4: it's not. I'm Denver fucking rhythlemen, man, I got this. 328 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 4: But the thing is is that it was so humbling 329 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 4: because I was just on ninety nine percent of the time. 330 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 4: I was completely I just fell on my face, Jerry. 331 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 4: So I just think, no matter what you do for them, 332 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 4: the means justify the ends. And that's because if God 333 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 4: has ordained a leader like Trump, how dare you go 334 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 4: against them in any way? And an imperfect vessel actually 335 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 4: can satisfy a perfect mission, and that perfect mission is 336 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 4: from God. That's really the feedback I would get. 337 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: So I was in Germany in the mid seventies and 338 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: there were a lot of x Nazis around. I used 339 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: to work as a waiter on a construction. I worked 340 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: with a lot of guys, and you know what, not 341 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: most of them, but a lot of them, at least 342 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: talking to me as an American, they still believed right. 343 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: I mean, they knew it. They shouldn't, but this was 344 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: put in their heads when they were kids, when they 345 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: were younger. So the conspiracy theory there that the Jews 346 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: had destroyed Germany, that there was an evil Bolshevik Zionist 347 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: plot to keep them down. Nothing was their fault. It 348 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: was a huge conspiracy theory that Nazi ideology was still 349 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: something thirty years after the war, that they were still 350 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: dealing with and there was still deep held beliefs that 351 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: you could not argue with. And talking to the younger people, 352 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: they would say, yeah, it's my parents. The only way 353 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: of dealing with it is generationally having it go away 354 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: and to try to present the facts over and over 355 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: and over again as best you can. 356 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 2: What's interesting to me is, at least in the political 357 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 2: realm where were you were in Congress, is this group 358 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 2: of people who seem to be speaking this way or 359 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 2: believe this way are the ones who just a few 360 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 2: years ago and still to a certain extent, throw out 361 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 2: the Constitution constantly. Is this is the Constitution? Is the 362 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 2: constitutional thing? Those two things don't mix. You can't believe 363 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 2: in the Constitution and believe that one side is ordained 364 00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 2: by God and only the Christian side wins. 365 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 4: I know a lot of people say, well, everybody blames 366 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 4: the prior generation, or you always think it's worse than 367 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 4: the past. I think the cumulative IQ of Congress right 368 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 4: now is the lowest in the history of Congress. I 369 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 4: think some of this isn't play acting, and I think 370 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 4: that is what to concern people, is that they're so 371 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 4: unserious they're. 372 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 2: Dangerous to tie again back to your experience with data. 373 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 2: You worked on the January sixth committee. Tell me a 374 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 2: little bit about from the January sixth Committee, what you 375 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 2: think you learned skill wise, and then what you're up 376 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 2: to today. 377 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 4: I think what surprised me John, what I learned. Number one, 378 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 4: Even if the stated objective is to show the American 379 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 4: people everything, it's not, I ran into massive political head 380 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 4: or winds with optics with what we found in data, 381 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 4: one of them being the Jenny Thomas text which our 382 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 4: team found, which I was one of the I was 383 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 4: the first to read, probably outside of Jenny and Mark Meadows. 384 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 4: But what I really saw, you know, by parsing and 385 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 4: by aggregating over thirty million lines of data most have 386 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 4: from call detailed records too, from sms's MMS whatever voy 387 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 4: landline sell really what we saw there was a much 388 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 4: more coordinated command and control action that anybody could imagine. 389 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 4: You know. We would break it down into groups, right, 390 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 4: So we had Trump associates, we had rally planners, we 391 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 4: had Trump family, we had DJ charge defendants. We had 392 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 4: specifically identified Proud Boys, Oathkeepers, and other white nationalist groups. 393 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 4: We had the alternative electors and state legislators, right, those 394 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 4: are sort of the groups that were connected. We saw 395 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 4: the connected group. I really thought from the call records 396 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 4: we'd have we see more of the political people that 397 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 4: had the massive amounts of sort of frequency. Right. 398 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: And now a. 399 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 4: Lot of the people we tried to get ahold of 400 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 4: they fought us on their phone records, so we would 401 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 4: run them as reference numbers against the kull f deed 402 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 4: dealt records. We had. The only person that we could 403 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 4: see that was connected to every single group was Roger Stone. 404 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 4: So when you're looking at you across all of this, right, 405 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 4: when you're looking at call records and data, I could 406 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 4: just say that unequivocally that is just fact. 407 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 2: Could you make a determination based on just the network 408 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 2: analysis of who were the believers and who were the 409 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 2: ones that were the cynically figured out how to do? 410 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 2: I mean, is Roger Stone such a brilliant to just 411 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 2: say he could pull this? 412 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 4: Sid Roger Stone doesn't believe anything. The thing about Roger 413 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 4: I just think he's a soulless Cretan who's really given 414 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 4: his life to ridiculousness. But you know, when you look 415 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 4: at the twenty three hundred and nineteen text messages, I 416 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 4: guess what struck me most is how QAnon conspiracy theories 417 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 4: had saturated every level the GOP. And if you look 418 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 4: at Jenny Thomas in text messages saying that she can talk, 419 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 4: she was talking directly to Jared Kushner, And the fact 420 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,360 Speaker 4: she was coordinating with Louis Gohmert's office through Connie Hare, 421 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 4: the chief of staff, and the fact that she's married 422 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 4: to a Supreme Court justice and had direct lines to 423 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 4: Trump and had direct lines to the CNP, ThEC Council 424 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 4: for National Policy. You would have to almost take out 425 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 4: the frontal low of your brain not to think that 426 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 4: all three branches of government at some point was involved 427 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 4: in those coup like movements. I just think the money 428 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 4: is so big, my god, that infrastructure is so healthy. 429 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 4: You know, when you look at the two hundred and 430 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 4: fifty five million dollars that Trump made between November and 431 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 4: January on stop steel messaging, when you look at the 432 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 4: rnc's money, when you look at the fundraising. Now, when 433 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 4: you look at Marjorie Taylor Green's quarters of over three 434 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 4: million dollars in a quarter with forty thousand small dollar donors. 435 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 4: It should scare the shit out of people. And I 436 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 4: feel like I'm taking crazy pills. I'm like, Okay, well, 437 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 4: you know, I'm looking to follow the money. I'm looking 438 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 4: at everything. I saw the JA six data, and I'm 439 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 4: seeing the same people that did the JA six stuff 440 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 4: coordinating other things that I'm working on now. The people 441 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 4: that are usually projecting and accusing people these awful things 442 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 4: sometimes are the people actually doing it. That is really 443 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 4: important for the American public to know. And if they're 444 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 4: accusing people like you, guys who have served our country 445 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 4: with valor and honor, of saying that somehow this was 446 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 4: made up or something like that, these people don't even 447 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 4: know what they're talking about, and if they did, it 448 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 4: doesn't matter to them because it. 449 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: Is war, right, war and profit. I mean, let's be 450 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: clear that Steve Bannon said it was war, but he 451 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: was also shaking down his own supporters to build wall 452 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: that he never built, and he stole their money. 453 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 4: I called Donald Trump gotis grifter of the United States, right, 454 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 4: You got a bunch of little stylins running around that 455 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 4: want to grift like their daddy. 456 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: Let's take a breather and back in. 457 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 2: A moment, and we're back. And what's interesting about the 458 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 2: sort of information revolution and the fact that there's big 459 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 2: data out there, there's going to be bad actors that 460 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 2: figure this stuff out too. I mean, I think one 461 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 2: of the early signs was the cambrid Jenallytica thing. Right, 462 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 2: Bannon was on the board of Cambridgenallytica. They were using massive, 463 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 2: massive amount of Facebook information to find new voters on 464 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 2: the right, to find people who they could use information 465 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 2: to make them so angry these people never voted in 466 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 2: the past that they would come out and vote and 467 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 2: to suppress no black groups and other groups on the 468 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 2: left using data. 469 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: Denver does data really matter? I mean, if somebody's listening 470 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: to this podcast, they're probably already there, right, So someone 471 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 1: who latches only newsmax is never going to go down 472 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: that road. Most people, if it's based on faith, how 473 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: much does it matter? 474 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 4: I think that's the thing about folks who really do 475 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 4: want to just do the right thing and look at 476 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 4: facts and data, you're in a big disadvantage. I guess 477 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 4: I haven't figured it out, I don't know how to 478 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 4: break through. 479 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 2: We are happy you're doing it, and I think it's 480 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 2: important that we all keep doing this because there is 481 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 2: some things that you know, It's like dealing with the 482 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 2: Russians or the Soviets and things. We and the West 483 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 2: often forget our strength. We have the allies, we have 484 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 2: the money, we have the power, and we often give 485 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 2: into the Russians when they bully and threaten. We should 486 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 2: understand our strength and use it. You've got to be 487 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 2: aggressive and offensive because at the end of the day, 488 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 2: if they beat you, they don't care about the truth. 489 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 2: They've won. They're in charge. 490 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,719 Speaker 1: But it does make to what you're saying about facts 491 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: and details and trying to talk to somebody who thinks 492 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: fundamentally different than you based on faith in the worst 493 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: sense of the word. So it's early two thousand and two. 494 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: We've just captured an al Qaeda guy in the field 495 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: and I'm there to talk to him. Right, I'm not 496 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: going to use zero and terrogate, because i just want 497 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: to talk to the guy. He speaks, he speaks some English, 498 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: and basically what he said is you started this, and 499 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: I'm like, no, September eleventh, you know you started it, 500 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: and he's like, no, you did, because you are trying 501 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: to take over my society. You were trying to steal 502 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 1: our children. You're sexualizing our children. You're showing TV shows 503 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: with women walking around showing their arms and sitting in 504 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: bars and drinking alcohol. You are destroying our families. And 505 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 1: then he basically said, I am a warrior of God 506 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: and you are nothing. And eventually we're going to win, 507 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: and we're going to win because we are more committed 508 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: than you are. I am willing to kill myself and 509 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 1: live here in Afghanistan and fight you for the next 510 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: twenty years, and you're not that dedicated. And I thought, 511 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: holy shit, He's right. 512 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 2: If you're a true believer, you are willing to play 513 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 2: the long game. So we see this with the Russians 514 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 2: in the history, we played an intelligence We would try 515 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 2: to these operations do things, but we had a short 516 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 2: time window. Rush would put stuff into play that they 517 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 2: knew they weren't going to get anything out of for 518 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 2: ten fifteen twenty years. The Chinese the same way, and 519 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 2: these people that Jerry talked about in Afghanistan, the true 520 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 2: al Qaida believers and stuff, and perhaps even in the 521 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 2: political space. Now, you know, we've seen Republicans played the 522 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 2: long game on the judiciary on the Supreme Court that 523 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 2: you know, over time definitely got them control of the 524 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,640 Speaker 2: Supreme Court. If you're a true believer, your time horizon 525 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 2: might be different too. 526 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: Within al Qaeda, one of the tenets of al Qaeda, 527 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: when you take by odd is you understand that lying 528 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: in pursuit of a greater truth is a virtue. 529 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 2: You talked about being a Mormon and a lapse Mormon. 530 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 2: A lot of Mormons in the Agency, a lot of 531 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 2: our friends are elapse Mormons. Is the issue of religion. 532 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,719 Speaker 2: If we are growing people in our system that have 533 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 2: such a deep view in faith that people who don't 534 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 2: have their view or the enemy, this is a real problem. 535 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 2: But of course none of us want to tackle like, 536 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 2: is there a problem with religion? I don't even know 537 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 2: how you would. 538 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 4: You know, it's funny. We had no problem attacking extremist Islam, 539 00:24:59,680 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 4: did we. 540 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 2: No, that's a good point, exactly right. 541 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 4: Spiritual warfare is what you always talk about. I put 542 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 4: on the armor of God. I'm a warrior for God. 543 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 4: If you read a book that's against Christ or against God, 544 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 4: you're an apostate right, those books were written of the 545 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 4: devil's hand. That is how I was raised. So we 546 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 4: do have a religious problem if a majority of evangelicals 547 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 4: believe in the storm or the Great Awakening or the 548 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 4: Great replacement, or the hashtag say of our children or 549 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 4: hashtag stop to steal, or that Italian satellite stole the election, 550 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 4: or that hammer and scorecard from USA where use to 551 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 4: manipulate votes, or that there were broken algorithms that was 552 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 4: led by some Venezuhalen group, or that Ukrainians and Romanians 553 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 4: were digital mules coming over and stealing people's license by 554 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 4: the way, sent by a congressman, and the text messages 555 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 4: to Mark Meadows, a foreign disinformation video sent in the 556 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 4: text messages to Mark Meadows. This video shocked me that 557 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 4: fifty million votes had been turned somehow fifty million are 558 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 4: you talking about? 559 00:25:58,119 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: Right? 560 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 4: There was fun one hundred and you know fifty six 561 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 4: million taxs. What So when I read the text messages 562 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,199 Speaker 4: and read all of the God will change the election 563 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 4: type of texts and what I've seen in my own life, 564 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 4: my own friends and family, we have to come to 565 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 4: grips that there is a portion of Christianity that believes 566 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 4: Jesus is a really good, violent guy and that he 567 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 4: needs to go to war and do some fighting. And 568 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 4: all of it's based on some unprovable myth of a 569 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:34,439 Speaker 4: satanic push by the globalists right to destroy our Christian 570 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 4: way of life. It goes all the way back to 571 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 4: the Constitution was a document creative by God, and there 572 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 4: is no separation of church and state. And if you 573 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 4: have Marjorie Taylor Green out there saying I am a 574 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 4: Christian nationalist. So I think right now, if we're afraid 575 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 4: to touch on the fact that most of QAnon was evangelical, 576 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 4: I think we're really sort of fooling ourselves that that 577 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 4: problem doesn't exist in the United States right now. 578 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 2: Well, Denver, it was really great to have you. Thank 579 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 2: you for that discussion. It was really it was really important. 580 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 2: Now we're going to bring in our friend and colleague 581 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 2: and producer Adam Davidson to sort of discuss this issue 582 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:10,400 Speaker 2: a little bit more. 583 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 3: Hey, guys, can I ask, like, if this was all 584 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 3: happening in a developing country with a weak state that 585 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 3: you were covering for the CIA, that you were responsible 586 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 3: for learning about, how would you describe, like write a 587 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,239 Speaker 3: cable or something. How would you describe what's going on 588 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:29,399 Speaker 3: in the US right now? 589 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 2: Well, I think the first thing we would do if 590 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 2: this is a similar situation in another countries, I think 591 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 2: Denver would be exactly the kind of person we would 592 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,360 Speaker 2: be going after to be a source for us. So, 593 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 2: for example, this January sixth committee looking at what happened 594 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 2: on January sixth, you know, lots of politicians, lots of experts, 595 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 2: lots of people coming in to talk about what they saw, 596 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 2: but they brought in Denver Riggleman as an expert to 597 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,919 Speaker 2: look at the data, right, to look at everyone's phone, 598 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 2: so look at all the computers, look at the connections, 599 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 2: and look at the analysis of the group and who's 600 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,640 Speaker 2: connected to who and type of thing. His actually would 601 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 2: be the perfect person for us to have as a 602 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,719 Speaker 2: spy in there to understand what's happening. So rather than 603 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 2: sort of the pontificating of the politicians who are running 604 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 2: the show, you'd want to know what's happening behind the 605 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 2: scenes and where the data leads. 606 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 3: It feels like a fairly crude bunch of like this 607 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 3: is not like wow, that's a sophisticated group of people 608 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 3: that Denver uncovered. 609 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 2: Well, the issue with this conspiracy is it's pretty clear 610 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 2: what's going on. It's an effort to deflect from other issues, right, 611 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 2: and so one political party wants to damage another political 612 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 2: party by using information and throwing ugly stuff out there 613 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 2: and claiming that the other political party supports this. It 614 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 2: deflects from there, either from their own problems or it 615 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 2: is looking to smear the other side. Look over here, 616 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 2: look at this ugly thing. Keep looking at this, keep 617 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 2: looking at this, while the real issue of what's happening 618 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 2: is over here on the other side. 619 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, but Bananda, your question about who the lowest character is, 620 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: I just want to jump in and say, Rudy Giuliani 621 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: for me, takes the case if you're going to run 622 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: with a follow on conspiracy. Theory to this, which may 623 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: actually be real, is Russian efforts and there are several 624 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: Russian intelligence officers who were working closely with Rudy Giuliani 625 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: to uncover this, which is something that is ignored completely. 626 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,959 Speaker 1: And the Russian connection to Rudy Giuliani, I think is 627 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: something as an intelligence officer, both John and I would 628 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: like to have people look into a little more closely. 629 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 2: Boy, can you imagine being a Foreign Intience officer and 630 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 2: having Rudy Giuliani, and. 631 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: To control Rudy Giuliani, I would feel sorry for those 632 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: Russian guys. 633 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 3: I'll tell you that he's not a great advertisement for 634 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 3: spying for the Russians. Well, guys, I found this incredibly interesting. 635 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 3: I also found it super depressing. So can we have 636 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 3: like a silly fun one next time? 637 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 2: Thank you all, and we'll see you next time on 638 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 2: Mission and Plausible. 639 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 5: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Seipher, 640 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,719 Speaker 5: and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission 641 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 5: Implausible is a production of Honorable, Mention and Abominable Pictures 642 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 5: for iHeartMedia