Speaker 1: You're listening to The Buck Sexton Show podcast, make sure
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Speaker 2: Hey, everybody, welcome to the Buck Sexton Show. We have
Speaker 2: with us the one and only Chris Rufo for this one.
Speaker 2: He's got a new book out, America's Cultural Revolution, which
Speaker 2: we're going to talk about here today on the program.
Speaker 2: Mister Rufo, always good to see you. Thanks for being here.
Speaker 1: It's great to be with you.
Speaker 2: So talk to me, my friend. The book, what do
Speaker 2: you dive into? What do we need to know?
Speaker 1: So? America's Culture Revolution is the story of the radical
Speaker 1: lefts fifty year long march of the institutions. I look
Speaker 1: at the key thinkers, the key ideologies, the key social movements,
Speaker 1: and trace their slow institutional capture over the course of
Speaker 1: the late twentieth century and then finally exploding into public
Speaker 1: consciousness with the summer of twenty twenty, the Summer of
Speaker 1: George Floyd. And the book seeks to answer a simple question,
Speaker 1: how did our institutions suddenly seem to have been deranged
Speaker 1: by critical race theory and other ideologies so completely and
Speaker 1: so quickly? And I try to give a very comprehensive
Speaker 1: answer to that question in the pages of this book.
Speaker 2: Well, tell me this, where was the right during all
Speaker 2: of this?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: How are we so asleep that somehow we managed to
Speaker 2: allow Is it because we believed in the the always
Speaker 2: tough to find but fun to talk about for some people,
Speaker 2: neutral space? Like what happened here? How'd we find ourselves
Speaker 2: handing over the institutions to the commis all over the place?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I didn't really a two part problem, And you
Speaker 1: identify the first part exactly right. The radical left was
Speaker 1: able to hijack and exploit some of the vulnerabilities in
Speaker 1: the small l liberal system, and the right had this
Speaker 1: notion that institutions could be neutral, that all voices could proliferate.
Speaker 1: But we know now in hindsight that institutions can not
Speaker 1: be neutral, and that the radical left has no interest
Speaker 1: in pluralism or tolerance or inclusivity in the real sense
Speaker 1: of the word. They wanted to use the institutions and
Speaker 1: force their ideology on others. But the second element, and
Speaker 1: this is something I think you'll be particularly interested in,
Speaker 1: is that the right essentially fell asleep after the end
Speaker 1: of the Cold War. Many of our leading intellectuals and
Speaker 1: political figures decided that, you know, we had defeated the
Speaker 1: communists and that ideology would never rise again. It had
Speaker 1: been totally invalidated by the process of history. We had
Speaker 1: reached the end of history in a sense. But the
Speaker 1: left wing radicals did not stop at the fall of
Speaker 1: the Soviet Union. It didn't deter them, it didn't force
Speaker 1: them to abandon their ideology. They just changed it and
Speaker 1: adapted it and kept working, and unfortunately the right kind
Speaker 1: of seeded responsibility and really stopped standing guard on the
Speaker 1: institutions until it was too late, until they discovered that
Speaker 1: they had lost control of those institutions altogether.
Speaker 2: Did it really start with the universities in terms of
Speaker 2: the infiltration. Was that the first place that it really
Speaker 2: took hold or was it you know, different components of journalism,
Speaker 2: the think tanks. Where did the radical left in a
Speaker 2: post World War II America establish its first footholds?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're spot on, And it really did begin in
Speaker 1: the universities in the late nineteen sixties. And they write
Speaker 1: about this explicitly and auto the material that I cover
Speaker 1: in the book. You know, they said that the proletariat
Speaker 1: working class revolution was not going to happen. It was
Speaker 1: impossible in the West, and particularly impossible in the United States,
Speaker 1: where most working people were actually quite happy with their
Speaker 1: standard of living and the country that they were living in.
Speaker 1: So they said, the one place where we think that
Speaker 1: we have the base of power, what they called the
Speaker 1: initial revolutionary institution, was the university campus, and so they
Speaker 1: decided to start there and then slowly worked their way
Speaker 1: out into media, K through twelve schools, government bureaucracies HR program,
Speaker 1: and then you know so called racial sensitivity training, which
Speaker 1: became DEI training. And this was really a remarkably effective strategy.
Speaker 1: They started very small, with a very small group of people,
Speaker 1: but they were able to spread their influence throughout the
Speaker 1: institutions in a really sophisticated way that was largely undetected
Speaker 1: by the right for far too long.
Speaker 2: Now, when you talk about cultural revolution, obviously people think
Speaker 2: of the Maoist cultural revolution in China. Do you see
Speaker 2: some connective ideological tissue between the two in a way
Speaker 2: that manifested itself in you know, the actual processes of
Speaker 2: taking over I mean, you know, what kind of comparisons
Speaker 2: The title obviously evokes the comparison, So what kind of
Speaker 2: comparisons do you actually make in the book?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, I make my own compari prisons,
Speaker 1: of course, but really you don't even have to have
Speaker 1: to trust my judgment. The leading left wing intellectuals of
Speaker 1: the time made the comparison explicitly. They elaborated a theory
Speaker 1: of cultural revolution, and they said, we have to learn
Speaker 1: from what's happening in China, what's happening in the African
Speaker 1: colonial liberation movement, what's happening in all of these other places.
Speaker 1: We have to have a cultural revolution of the same
Speaker 1: kind in the West. And then also the key concept,
Speaker 1: really the heart of the story of the book is
Speaker 1: their so called long March through the institutions. And this
Speaker 1: is what they called it way back in the early
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, and it was a direct illusion to then.
Speaker 1: It wasn't a chairman then, but he was a general
Speaker 1: in the Chinese Communist Army, and they had this long
Speaker 1: march through China, actually a long strategic retreat, and then
Speaker 1: they were able to establish dominance once they had become
Speaker 1: secure and start the communist revolution, the rule of imunist
Speaker 1: revolution in China. And so they adapted not only the language,
Speaker 1: not only the philosophy, not only the basic Marxist Leninist
Speaker 1: revolutionary theory, but they but they really adapted a lot
Speaker 1: of the strategies and tactics, sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly. But
Speaker 1: if you look at the ferment that was happening around
Speaker 1: the world, it was also happening in our country.
Speaker 2: Speaking to Chris Rufo here, Chris, hold the book up again,
Speaker 2: so I can tell everybody, if you, for those who
Speaker 2: are watching America's cultural revolution, how the radical left conquered everything.
Speaker 2: And if you're not watching because you're not subscribed to
Speaker 2: the YouTube channel yet, go to YouTube dot com slash
Speaker 2: buck Sexton and obviously you can go get Chris's book
Speaker 2: wherever fine books are sold. I want to ask you,
Speaker 2: Chris in a second, about how the counter revolution is going,
Speaker 2: because I'm sure that's a big part of what you're
Speaker 2: writing about as well. You've got, you know, the bud
Speaker 2: Light boycott, the success of the Sound of Freedom. Recently,
Speaker 2: some of the professional sports leagues and teams feeling like
Speaker 2: they can't get away with quite the same amount of
Speaker 2: left wing stuff. So we'll get to that in a second.
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Speaker 2: two T dot org. Chris, how are we dealing with
Speaker 2: the counter revolution against the left wing lunatics who have
Speaker 2: taken over all of our institutions? Or at least most
Speaker 2: of them.
Speaker 1: Well, there's good news and bad news, and I always
Speaker 1: like to start with the bad news. The bad news
Speaker 1: is that they've had a fifty year head start, they're
Speaker 1: in a position of entrenched institutional power. But the good
Speaker 1: news is that over the last really two years, two
Speaker 1: and a half years now, the right has started to
Speaker 1: awaken to successful strategies of counter revolution. And so I
Speaker 1: think it began with the fight against CRT in late
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, It continued in the fight for control of
Speaker 1: local school boards in twenty twenty one, it moved to
Speaker 1: gender ideology in twenty twenty two, and now we find
Speaker 1: ourselves pioneering successful strategies to fight that woke capital or
Speaker 1: kind of left wing culture war from America's largest companies.
Speaker 1: And so this is a period of of learning, of study,
Speaker 1: of experimentation, of creating prototypes and new strategies. And I think,
Speaker 1: you know, I've been involved in many of these campaigns.
Speaker 1: I've learned a lot, and I'm very optimistic at heart
Speaker 1: because the story that we have to tell, the tactics
Speaker 1: that we have at our disposal, the political opportunities that
Speaker 1: are on the horizon are really only limited by our
Speaker 1: own creativity and our own willingness to fight. And as
Speaker 1: we become more creative, as we have more appetite for
Speaker 1: actually going out and fighting these fights, I think we're
Speaker 1: going to see success after success. And you know, the
Speaker 1: last chapter in the book is devoted to figuring out
Speaker 1: exactly how to do that, outlining some laying out rather
Speaker 1: some strategies for the right to achieve this counter revolution
Speaker 1: to come.
Speaker 2: Are you ever surprised? I mean, people who are in
Speaker 2: the movement on the right are familiar with a lot
Speaker 2: of your work that involves showing the public the extent
Speaker 2: and the extreme nature of some of the left wing
Speaker 2: and doctrination that's happening in institutions, whether it's local government
Speaker 2: bureaucracies or in Disney or wherever. Are you ever at
Speaker 2: this point those surprised at how insistent they are at
Speaker 2: defending the most extreme stuff. And one thing that has
Speaker 2: been I think a surprise to a lot of folks
Speaker 2: who are just paying attention to what's going on in
Speaker 2: the news is that they're not willing to take it
Speaker 2: seems a tactical retreat on say, drag Queen Story Hour
Speaker 2: for kids. Instead, they either say it's not happening, or
Speaker 2: they say it is happening and it's a good thing,
Speaker 2: and that just feels.
Speaker 1: Like you're transphobic for for even mentioning it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I mean, did do you ever
Speaker 2: get surprised when you just see how basically how wacko
Speaker 2: the left has actually gotten.
Speaker 1: Yeah, although I think I would, I would, I don't
Speaker 1: think that that is kind of a unitary or universal narrative.
Speaker 1: And actually there's a big difference right now and a
Speaker 1: kind of a lag Maybe it's just a lagging indicator.
Speaker 1: But look, I mean, we won the fight on critical
Speaker 1: race theory. We defined it, we attacked it, we changed
Speaker 1: public opinion about it. The left really stopped defending it,
Speaker 1: and we've won concrete political victories, legislative victories, school board victories.
Speaker 1: And I think that you find even the kind of
Speaker 1: Robin DiAngelo's and Ibram Kendy's and BLM leaders having lost
Speaker 1: all credibility, having really been exposed for pushing a false ideology.
Speaker 1: And I think that the left in some sense through
Speaker 1: in the towel in some ways on these issues on
Speaker 1: gender and sexuality. That hasn't happened yet, and I'm still
Speaker 1: trying to really piece together why. But what I do
Speaker 1: know is just kind of a basic you know, what's
Speaker 1: the status quo right now is that they have doubled down,
Speaker 1: tripled down, quadrupled down on these things. Drag Queen's Story hour,
Speaker 1: you know, porn, pornography in schools, all of these various
Speaker 1: expressions of you know, queer theory and ideology, and then
Speaker 1: also the kind of performance of these ideologies. I think,
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, they're they're more committed to this than
Speaker 1: on CRT, for example, they're more dogged in the defense,
Speaker 1: and then they are willing to double down to a
Speaker 1: greater degree. And I don't know if it's because this
Speaker 1: campaign to expose this started a year later than CRT,
Speaker 1: but but something is happening there that I think we'll
Speaker 1: start to understand better in the coming months and years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I appreciate that you put it, you
Speaker 2: added a context to it, because on those other issues,
Speaker 2: you're right, there have been retreats that have been made right.
Speaker 2: And that's I think that's why the gender issue sticks
Speaker 2: out so much in my mind, because even on CRT,
Speaker 2: on some of the more extreme stuff, they would say,
Speaker 2: oh well that's not I mean, you were right on
Speaker 2: the forefront of this. That's not CRT, they would say,
Speaker 2: think you know, they were playing games around the debate
Speaker 2: without engaging. But you will come across people on the
Speaker 2: gender debate who say, no, for a fifty year old
Speaker 2: man to be dressed as a woman wearing a thong
Speaker 2: and in fishnet tights, you know, jiggling his like butt
Speaker 2: in front of families with children is somehow one of
Speaker 2: the blessings of liberty. I mean, this is something that
Speaker 2: we see, you know that they stick with this, and
Speaker 2: I think that it's interesting because it's it's definitely a
Speaker 2: political live it should be a political liability for them.
Speaker 2: I want to ask you more though, about what you
Speaker 2: think is going to happen to DEI and just the
Speaker 2: CRT critical race theory, DEI diversity, equity inclusion, the racial
Speaker 2: entitlement state in the aftermath of the Supreme Court decision
Speaker 2: that we just saw on college admission specifically. So let's
Speaker 2: get into that in a second here. But first of everybody, look,
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Speaker 2: amazing specials. All right, Chris, what do you think happens
Speaker 2: to the diversity, equity and inclusion bureaucracy now that there's
Speaker 2: the very real threat, certainly for college campuses. You know,
Speaker 2: universities of legal action if they discriminated on the basis
Speaker 2: of gender and race. But some of these programs in
Speaker 2: the corporate world seem like they're perhaps in jeopardy or
Speaker 2: are they just going to continue on? How do you
Speaker 2: see that playing out?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, this has actually been my big political project
Speaker 1: for this year. I started by putting out model legislation
Speaker 1: with Manhattan Institute providing for state legislators to abolish the
Speaker 1: DEI bureaucracy and all of their public universities. I then
Speaker 1: did an investigative reporting campaign in Florida and Texas exposing
Speaker 1: some of these really ideological and abusive DEI programs and
Speaker 1: state universities. And then I worked with Governor DeSantis and
Speaker 1: legislators in Texas to help advocate for legislation that passed
Speaker 1: in both states to actually just abolish all of these
Speaker 1: programs altogether. And so I'm happy to say that in
Speaker 1: Florida and Texas those DEI programs are have been abolished legislatively.
Speaker 1: Are they still going to try to kind of hide
Speaker 1: them and sneak them and do them around the edges,
Speaker 1: change the names. Yeah, of course, and we have to
Speaker 1: be vigilant. But what we've done is set the precedent
Speaker 1: that these programs are not only unnecessary, but they're actually
Speaker 1: counterproductive to the mission of universities, schools, corporations, all of
Speaker 1: the various domains where they've taken hold. And we've seen
Speaker 1: even in the corporate setting, as the economy has tightened,
Speaker 1: as the kind of hysteria following the death of George
Speaker 1: Floyd has receded, companies are quietly shedding many of their
Speaker 1: DEI jobs, including very lefty companies in Silicon Valley and
Speaker 1: other places in California have been quietly firing reams of
Speaker 1: their DEI employees because they're finding out that these people
Speaker 1: only create problems. They don't offer any solutions. They're kind
Speaker 1: of a waste of head count.
Speaker 2: The productivity of the night. I mean, that's there's no
Speaker 2: value in this. It just is ideological and rain on
Speaker 2: company resources.
Speaker 1: That's yeah, exactly. They offer actually negative value. Right every
Speaker 1: dollar you pay for DEI, you know, you losed two dollars,
Speaker 1: so it's a it's not a good deal. And and
Speaker 1: so I think we're seeing a really big shift, and
Speaker 1: I'd like to accelerate that shift. And I'd like to
Speaker 1: see especially policymakers starting to just say, you know what,
Speaker 1: we want to have strict color blind equality. We're going
Speaker 1: to treat everyone equally as an individual, and we're going
Speaker 1: to have no left wing, highly ideological DEI departments in
Speaker 1: any of our state institutions. It's not necessary, it's not good,
Speaker 1: and it's not something that we're going to do. And
Speaker 1: you know, two years ago, three years ago, five years ago,
Speaker 1: was that feasible. I don't think so. But we've built
Speaker 1: the case over over a few years, starting with CRT,
Speaker 1: and we're going after it relentlessly. We've now abolished it
Speaker 1: in two of the largest red states, and I think
Speaker 1: that when legislatures are back in session in other states,
Speaker 1: we're going to see a remarkable domino effect to start
Speaker 1: to wipe out some of these DEI departments for good.
Speaker 2: Now, places like Disney, some of these big companies. We
Speaker 2: saw what happened to bud Light right trying to I
Speaker 2: don't even think it was trying to appeal to a
Speaker 2: subset of its customer base, which I don't know how
Speaker 2: popular bud Light is or was with the with the
Speaker 2: transgender community, but to virtue signal to the left that
Speaker 2: we're a company that cares about this issue. Whatever, Disney,
Speaker 2: I know you you were involved. I believe in showing.
Speaker 2: I've talked about this this video many times. Was it
Speaker 2: was it your work that got the video out there
Speaker 2: of the woman who said that she had a Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I had tip to you. That was amazing that the
Speaker 2: head of creative content at Disney said that she had
Speaker 2: a pan sexual and a non binary like pant sexual
Speaker 2: child and a non binary child.
Speaker 1: Do these people what are the odds?
Speaker 2: What are the odds? Do these people believe this or
Speaker 2: do they think they have to say this stuff because
Speaker 2: they're afraid of the woke Marxist in the HR department
Speaker 2: in your experience, Oh.
Speaker 1: No, no, they absolutely believe it. And that person in
Speaker 1: particular is a is a diehard, you know, true believer,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's just you know, kind of eye popping,
Speaker 1: uh and almost unimaginable. But what these identities have become,
Speaker 1: uh is luxury objects. There was a time in America's
Speaker 1: you know kind of uh you know, Wall Street eighties
Speaker 1: heyday where you you might want to drive a Lamborghini
Speaker 1: and have a you know, a product suit. I don't know,
Speaker 1: I'm not not not in that world. But you know,
Speaker 1: those are the status symbols. But now like having children
Speaker 1: with unique sexualities is the thing that you want to
Speaker 1: show the world and shows how tolerant and open and
Speaker 1: cultured and advanced and free thinking you are. And so
Speaker 1: she she's bragging through her things. I have a one
Speaker 1: pan sexual child and one transgender child, and and and
Speaker 1: and so therefore I I'm kind of the moral authority,
Speaker 1: but I think it comes from a place of of
Speaker 1: of kind of a sense of moral of fear. You know,
Speaker 1: these are this is you know, a middle aged white woman,
Speaker 1: she's got to stand out in the corporate environment. Well,
Speaker 1: what better way than to have a kind of a
Speaker 1: kind of small cornucopia of sexual identities among your offspring.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it seems bizarre when you actually see
Speaker 1: the video from the public point of view, but if
Speaker 1: you're actually inside these places and institutions, this is just
Speaker 1: like the normal conversation. This is the day to day
Speaker 1: banter and chitter chatter that happens. And so my job
Speaker 1: is to take this stuff and expose it to the
Speaker 1: public and to actually have some real feedback for these folks.
Speaker 1: And I think that with Disney, we certainly did that
Speaker 1: that was quite a big quite a big story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we've talked about it many times and credited
Speaker 2: your work on it because it's pretty amazing. I want
Speaker 2: to come back in a second. I'm gonna ask you
Speaker 2: a question, but I want you to hold don't answer
Speaker 2: quite yet, but I want to. I want to ask
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Speaker 2: But it's what is the what is for you? Just
Speaker 2: the most outrageous like the craziest DEI training material stuff
Speaker 2: you've come across from any institution, Like where was it?
Speaker 2: And what was it?
Speaker 1: All? Right?
Speaker 2: Can I can I get back to that in a second. Well,
Speaker 2: we'll deal with this one. You know, Chris has written
Speaker 2: a book which I'm sure is about to be. If
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Speaker 2: craziest DEI stuff you've come across so far. If you
Speaker 2: had to give an award for the DEI craziest, it
Speaker 2: would be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's a great idea. I should. I should
Speaker 1: create an annual award for the best one. But I
Speaker 1: think that the best one was one of actually my
Speaker 1: early stories. I'm at the Sandia National Nuclear Laboratories. These
Speaker 1: are the engineers and technicians that are responsible for actually
Speaker 1: building America's nuclear arsenal, so creating the nuclear weapons that
Speaker 1: are a cornerstone of our defense. And laboratory decided to
Speaker 1: send their white male employees to a three day white
Speaker 1: male re education camp in which they had to learn
Speaker 1: about their privilege. They had to learn about how they
Speaker 1: had internalized oppressions. They had to actually write fictitious letters
Speaker 1: to women and minorities apologizing for their whiteness. And I
Speaker 1: had all the documents, you know, from this session, and
Speaker 1: it was just like the most humiliating, degrading, just sad
Speaker 1: and pathetic thing I've ever seen. And then, okay, whatever,
Speaker 1: something's degrading and said and humilating, you know, such as life.
Speaker 1: But then you think, wait a minute, these are people
Speaker 1: that build our nuclear weapons. It's not just a make
Speaker 1: work job in the bureaucracy. It's actually pretty important to
Speaker 1: have guys that are competent and good at their jobs.
Speaker 1: So I would say that is of all the stories,
Speaker 1: probably the one that sticks out in my mind the.
Speaker 2: Most great answer. Everyone should got a copy of America's
Speaker 2: Cultural Revolution from a friend, Chris Ruffo. Chris, always appreciate
Speaker 2: your work. I'm going to get a copy of the book.
Speaker 2: I look forward to reading it and thanks so much
Speaker 2: for being with us.
Speaker 1: Thank you