1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: Body dams. But Joseph scotten More, you want to hear 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: a horrible term. I've always hated this term when it 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: comes to medicine. I don't know, it's always made my 4 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: skin crawl. It's actually the word rhino plasty. Rhino of course, 5 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: referring to a rhinoceros and the idea that they've got 6 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: the big horn, you know, sticking out of their nose. 7 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: Plasty goes to a surgical intervention. Perhaps that is going 8 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: to alter one's appearance. Rhino plasty. We might otherwise know 9 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: it as a nose job. And there are many people 10 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: who have had those jobs because of serious cosmetic issues, 11 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: and they look so much better. And at the end 12 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 1: of the day, you know, it all depends on your 13 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: own personal perception of yourself. Maybe it needs to have 14 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: a medical intervention that requires rhinoplasty. And then there's others. 15 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: I think that we can go back in time and 16 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: look that have had rhinoplasty and probably ill advised. But 17 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 1: today's case, today's case is a case that involves an 18 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: individual who, according to her, administered a notes shop. Only 19 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: this was not a surgical intervention. This was murder in 20 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: the instrument. It was a three eighty caliber pistol. I'm 21 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Facts. Brother Dave. 22 00:01:57,840 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: I got time. I'm going to tell you something about 23 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: myself today that I have never told you. I know, right, 24 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: hold on, friends, in case you don't know it. Dave 25 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: and I are actually we we we do our our 26 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: our tapings actually looking at one another. We can see 27 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 1: one another. You know, we're having a conversation. It is scary. 28 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: It is scary. We see ourselves in all all sorts 29 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: of dishevelment. And other days will come in and say, hey, 30 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 1: would you do tech shower day? But Dave, and you 31 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: know I've I've broken my nose four times in my life, 32 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: really actually and I no, no, but and I think 33 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: the first time I fell at a skating rink and 34 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: my face was used to catch myself. First time I'd 35 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: been on skates. I think I was probably eight. Wow, terrifying. 36 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: The other one actually had a dear friend of mine. 37 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,359 Speaker 1: I was at a church, the church we attended when 38 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: I was a kid. I was coming out of what 39 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: we call the game room. This church is really old, 40 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: so every door in the church was solid oak. And 41 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: she had come running down the hallway. As I was 42 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 1: walking out of the door, grabbed a solid oak door 43 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: and slammed it on my face. I never saw it coming. Wow, 44 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: And that broke my nose. And then I broke my 45 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: nose in football, I actually had a face mask that 46 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: gave way and caved in on me. Took a shot 47 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,119 Speaker 1: into the face and then the other one I think 48 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: might have been a broken nose. I'm not going to 49 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: go into but suffice it to say I have now 50 00:03:55,440 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: rather a robust probosca as Jimmy Ranny. But yeah, Jimmy Durany, 51 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: you know, got a big ridge in my nose. You 52 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: know it. My nose generally arrives at a location a 53 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: couple of seconds ahead of the rest of me, so 54 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 1: I'll put it that way. If it were raining outside, 55 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: people could take shelter. It was just dry, so you 56 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: never know. Being large, Well, it is for other robust, 57 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 1: but that's okay. There are many people that that do 58 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: go under the knife, if you will. For Ronald Plastic. 59 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: One of the things that's always kind of put me 60 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 1: off about the process is that hammers and chisels are 61 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: used many times. Now there's surgical hammers and chisels. You know, 62 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: to knock off edges and what another. There's something kind 63 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 1: of ghastly about it. You know, we do ghastly things 64 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: in the borg obviously, but you know, I'm just thinking 65 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: about you know, the breaking. You know, in order, you 66 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: know what' the old adage. Uh, you got to break 67 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 1: some eggs to make an eye. You got to break 68 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: the nose and uh that's why that's why you see this, uh, 69 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: the bilateral raccoon eyes with people that have undergone rhino plastic. 70 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 1: Because you're fracturing, You're fracturing the skull. 71 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 2: Wow, let me, is it true that your nose once 72 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 2: you have a nose job, that your nose doesn't keep growing? 73 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 2: I know, when we get older, our nose and our 74 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 2: ears continue to grow correct as they as we. 75 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 1: Say issue, you know, the soft tissue does. And you 76 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: have a nose underlying skeletal structure. 77 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 2: Okay, but when you have a nose job, does that 78 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 2: prevent your nose from getting longer as you age? 79 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: Uh? I'm going to tell you right now, I'm going 80 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,799 Speaker 1: to say it plainly. I have no idea. I don't 81 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: I don't have an answer to that question it, but 82 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: I can tell you this. I would think that that 83 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: it would disrupt it to a certain degree. Here, here's 84 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: a kind of a little bony fact, if you will. 85 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: Did you know that in your throughout your skeleton, you 86 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: have what to refer to. Medical types refer to it, 87 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: and anatomus refer to it as foramen. Foramen are these 88 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: tiny little holes that are in bone. Okay, as a 89 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: matter of fact, the largest foramen that we have is 90 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: what's referred to as the foramen magnum, and it is 91 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,799 Speaker 1: at the base of the skull. It's the biggest bony 92 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: hole in your body, and it's where your spinal cord 93 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: emerges comes out of that hole, you know, from beneath 94 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: the brain, and you've got tiny little framen that surround it, 95 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 1: and that's where blood vessels pass through day. So if 96 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: you've got like a foramen in your you know your 97 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: facial structure, that is a blood supply to the soft 98 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 1: tissues around and to the bone. Two, if you get 99 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: it altered surgically, I really wonder how surgeons go in 100 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: and account for that because those vessels have to go 101 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: somewhere else, or does it diminish the supply of blood? 102 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: And I know that there's people out there they're surgeons 103 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: and work with surgeons, and they could probably have the 104 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: answer to that. But it is interesting, to say the 105 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: very least, and you have to account for that. And 106 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: you know, people that want to approve improve their appearance, 107 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: you know, they pursue these types of things, and that's 108 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: kind of at the heart at the center, I think 109 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: at least a comment that's associated with this case. 110 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 2: It is referred to as the nose job murder. 111 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is. And look, I'll look all in all, 112 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: all aside, I've covered this case. I've covered it in 113 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: the news. I've covered it with Nancy. I think I 114 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: covered it probably on Long Crime Network when they were 115 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: still doing the daily court coverage. And you know, I 116 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: would be one of the It's almost like being a 117 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: color commentator. It's kind of a strange thing. I'm almost 118 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: sure that we're you know, we're talking about the the 119 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: shu Shannon Shana Hubers Shana Huber's case. And you had 120 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: questions for me about this case, and I was I 121 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: was like, Okay, well I'll revisit this with you because 122 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: you've got questions. I want to try to answer them 123 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: as best I can. 124 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 2: You know, Joe, it is called the uh, the knows 125 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 2: I murdered because Shanna Hubers claims she shot her boyfriend 126 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 2: in self defense and during her interview with police, she 127 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,839 Speaker 2: said that he was very vain and that she had 128 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 2: a friend who was a dentist and he uh the 129 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 2: Bryan Posting, the victim here, that Ryan wanted to get 130 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 2: veneers for his teeth, and he also wanted to get 131 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 2: a nose job. And in this interview with police, after 132 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 2: Ryan Posting has been shot six times in the face, 133 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 2: Shana Hubers says, I gave him the nose job he 134 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 2: always wanted. That's why this case has been called the 135 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 2: nose job murder, because who would say that about somebody 136 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 2: that claimed to love Yeah? 137 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, And it's uh, it's uh. I use 138 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:42,479 Speaker 1: the term chilling a lot. It goes beyond chilling. It's uh. 139 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: This is this has kind of a level of disgusting 140 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: to it. I think, and I think that it's important 141 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: that we remember the victim, Ron Posting here and what 142 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: he did for a living. I mean, he he was 143 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: an attorney. Okay. Most people think of attorneys in the 144 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: sense where you're in trial and you're in this big 145 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: courtroom and you're presenting to the jury, and that's very typical. 146 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,319 Speaker 1: You know, you can practice law in any number any 147 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: number of ways, contract law. You'll never walk inside of 148 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: a courtroom, you know, to try a case. That's you know, 149 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: that's not what they do. But for him, I think Dave, 150 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: first off, he's he's a good looking cat. I can 151 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: say that, you know, to begin with handsome had a 152 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: lot of friends that really loved him and thought he 153 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: was a really cool dude. He had gone to I 154 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: think he went to the University of Indiana or Indiana 155 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: University undergraduate, was a triple major there with an eye 156 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: toward going to law school, and I think that he 157 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: wound up going to the University of Northern Kentucky for 158 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: his law degree. 159 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 2: I'm just trying to think a triple major, do you 160 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 2: know the brain power that requires. 161 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, you got to stay on you got to stay 162 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: on top of it and become me. Yeah, it's like 163 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: a normal degree is like I think at jack State 164 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,559 Speaker 1: it's one hundred you know, average, it's going to vary, 165 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 1: but it's like one hundred and twenty hours all right, 166 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: roughly one hundred and twenty twenty four hours. That's for 167 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: an undergraduate degree. Well, you still have to do all 168 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: of the major requisites for if you're majoring in political science, 169 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 1: which I think he was, geography, which I think he was, 170 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: and I can't remember what the other one was, but 171 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: there were like three. He might walk out of the 172 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 1: door with one hundred and sixty five undergraduate hours and 173 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: he say, well, what would be the point where he's 174 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: trying to be well rounded? I think, you know, before 175 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 1: he sets himself up to go to law school, be 176 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: able to write effectively and do all things. And he 177 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: was apparently quite a success, dave. He was. 178 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 2: He was an out of Cincinnati where he practiced, and 179 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 2: you know you mentioned a minute ago about his friends 180 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 2: really caring about him. Ryan Postin was a well thought 181 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 2: of individual at twenty nine years old, a very accomplished 182 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 2: young man, and he kind of had his uh, had 183 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 2: his pick of the women he would see. 184 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: You know. 185 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 2: He was like, I mean, obviously smart, obviously attractive, and 186 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 2: you know, a good guy. Here's the problem. He and 187 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 2: Shanna Huber's data for eighteen months, and it was content. 188 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 2: It was an on again, off again relationship. I've poured 189 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 2: over some text messages between the two of them, and 190 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 2: it's interesting if you realize that. First of all, Shana 191 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 2: was twenty one years old and she was in college 192 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 2: at the time. No slotch intellectually, but you know, you 193 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 2: have people that are street smart and yet they lack 194 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 2: in other areas of maturity or you know, street smarts 195 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 2: and things like that, and she was lacking in social 196 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 2: graces and being able to be somebody that people would 197 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 2: really like. She had a lot of edges on her again, 198 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 2: very smart and very attractive, but there were parts of 199 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 2: her that were really unappealing to people who got to 200 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,079 Speaker 2: know her. And in this case with Ryan, they dated 201 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 2: today eighteen months. They met online, as many people do 202 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 2: these days. Ryan actually saw a Facebook picture that she 203 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 2: posted of a spring break trip she had. He liked 204 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 2: the photo that led to communication online. They met, they 205 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 2: went out, and it was a hot, hot relationship at times. 206 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 2: There was a lot of intensity there. And here's the 207 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 2: part about Ryan that I think his friends were I'm 208 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:45,839 Speaker 2: glad they shared it with us. He didn't want to 209 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 2: hurt anybody's feelings. He really was that guy. He didn't 210 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 2: want You know, some people just they don't care about 211 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 2: others feelings. They don't and they just go through life 212 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 2: like that. Ryan did. He cared so much about other 213 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 2: people's feelings, in particular with Shana. He wanted to break 214 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 2: up with her, he needed to break up with her, 215 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 2: but he didn't want to hurt her feelings, so he 216 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 2: would do it in soft ways, not very direct and 217 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 2: not final, and always left this door open and she 218 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 2: would come back. She was relentless. 219 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: And yeah, the number of text messages, I think is 220 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: something that really and this is we have to go back. 221 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: This is this case originated in twenty twelve, I think 222 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: it was. And I look back in time interestingly enough, 223 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: I got to say, guess what else was in the 224 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: news at this particular time that kind of parallels this 225 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: case and something Shannon Huber is actually referenced, and that's 226 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: that's Jodi Arius trial. This was actually the trial itself 227 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: was going on during this period of time. I know, 228 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: because you know, i'd been I was at h l 229 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: N at the time, you know, covering the scene with 230 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: Vinny and the guys, and we covered it for a 231 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: long long time. And it's striking parallels, you know, in 232 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: this case and with Jody Arius. I don't know, can 233 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: you say unrequited love or you know, wanting to distance 234 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: yourself from someone. You've got this highly charged, highly charged relationship. 235 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: That's you know, you've got these these people that are 236 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: deeply intimately involved. I was I was listening to an 237 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: interview regarding this case, and a lady that was speaking, 238 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: I believe she was one of the foreign prosecutors, had 239 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: said that this victim, Ryan would come home Dave and 240 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: somehow Shana would get into his apartment and he would 241 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: walk through the door and she would be lying on 242 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: the sofa nude, smiling at him when he walked in. Now, look, 243 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: I'm a red blooded most I'm not saying that I 244 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: have an aversion to that when it comes to my wife. However, 245 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: I have to say, you've got someone that has come 246 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: into your space and feels that very comfortable in an 247 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: intimate setting, that very bold like that, and you know 248 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: that they don't necessarily want you any longer, and you're 249 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:35,119 Speaker 1: going to literally bear yourself to them. You're really in 250 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: a very very difficult area. It's an emotionally charged situation 251 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: and it can only get worse. Day. 252 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 2: During the time of their relationship, Ryan would text Shana, 253 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 2: it's over. As you think about how bold it would 254 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 2: take for somebody to be to sneak into the house, 255 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 2: break into the house, and be laying there on the 256 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 2: couch nude when the man comes home. Shana was aggressive 257 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 2: and relentless when it came to Ryan posting. She was 258 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 2: there constantly, even when he said stop, please stop. But Joe, 259 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 2: one thing I did notice, let me share. February twenty twelve, 260 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 2: he sends her a text. You can tell people you 261 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,959 Speaker 2: broke up with me. He's negotiating here. You know she 262 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 2: won't stop. She won't leave him alone. Look, tell people 263 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 2: you broke up with me. Now, I'm good with that. 264 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 2: March of twenty twelve. The next month, Ryan to Shana, 265 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 2: stop texting me. April, I no longer have the patience 266 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 2: to deal with you. So three months in a row 267 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 2: he is sending very specific things to Shana, but she 268 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 2: won't give up. Relentless. Investigators found hundreds of thousands of 269 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 2: text messages between Ryan and Shana, and again remember their 270 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 2: relationship only lasted a period of eighteen months. For every 271 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 2: one message that Ryan sent to Shana, Shana probably sent 272 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: fifty to him. 273 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: Wow, what a ratio. 274 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 2: She could not stop herself, and when it came right 275 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: down to it, Ryan had been chased out of his 276 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 2: own house and it ended up at his stepfather's house 277 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 2: in the middle of the night because she wouldn't leave 278 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 2: his place. She would not leave. He had to leave 279 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 2: his own condo because she wouldn't leave. You want to 280 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 2: get physical with her now? She claimed he was Joe. 281 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 2: She claimed he was physically abusive to her. As a 282 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 2: matter of fact, she showed bruises on her arms to 283 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 2: a next door neighbor, claiming that Ryan did that. She 284 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 2: confessedlated on this she bruised herself. Now, I'm no lawyer. 285 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 2: You're no lawyer, but we hang out with a lot 286 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:53,360 Speaker 2: of lawyers. 287 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: Yes, we do. 288 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 2: What does that seem like to you, Joe? That she 289 00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 2: was playing She was playing a long game to get 290 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 2: him back after he had said stop, leave me alone, 291 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 2: and she wouldn't that. Now she's turned the tables and 292 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 2: now she's planning something else. 293 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: Maybe yeah. And I think that many people would, in 294 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 1: a knee jerk manner probably say that she's simply crazy 295 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,719 Speaker 1: and dismiss it. But let me tell you this, just 296 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: because somebody actually behaves in a manner in which you 297 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: see as quote unquote crazy does not necessarily mean that 298 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:39,239 Speaker 1: they're insane. However, what it might mean is that they 299 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: are pure evil. Who actually makes a comment that is 300 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: ocallous when speaking of the dead. And again, I want to, 301 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 1: as you know, as an advocate for the dead, here, 302 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: I gotta say the dead, the dead can't offer up 303 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: any testimony on their own behalf. We need to keep 304 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: that in mind. But what, what kind of person in 305 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: what context was this comment about those jobs made? 306 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 2: Dave Well On the night in question, October the twelfth, 307 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 2: twenty twelve, Shanna Hubers is at Ryan Posting's house. They 308 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 2: spent October the eleventh together and had actually gone to 309 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 2: Shane's mother's house. Ryan was trying to ease her out 310 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 2: of the relationship. He told Shana, I have a date 311 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 2: tomorrow night on the twelfth, at nine thirty pm. 312 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 1: I have a date. 313 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 2: By the way, his date was with the reigning Miss 314 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 2: Ohio USA. Her name is Audrey Bolt. He has it 315 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 2: and he's telling her this now. He's trying to be 316 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 2: nice to Shana so that he can leave with class. 317 00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 2: But they go to Shane his mom's house on October 318 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 2: October twelfth or October the eleventh. She spends the night. 319 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 2: She will not leave Ryan's house. After everything he's trying 320 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 2: to do, she still won't leave. So on October the twelfth, 321 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 2: he's telling her, I have a date, I'm going out. 322 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 2: You need to leave, and she won't. On October the twelfth, 323 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 2: nine one one gets a call. Emergency Medical Services called 324 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 2: to the scene because Shanna Hubers says, I shot my 325 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 2: boyfriend in self defense. That's the case. I shot my 326 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 2: boyfriend in self defense. In this nine to one one call, 327 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,479 Speaker 2: it's hours later when she's being interviewed by police and 328 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 2: she explains the shooting and by the way, six shots 329 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 2: in all, and she says to the investigator, a female investigator, 330 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:02,879 Speaker 2: she's sitting in the room, and Shaney says, he's vain. 331 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 2: He wanted veneers and he wanted a nose job. So 332 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 2: I gave him the nose job he always wanted by 333 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 2: shooting him in the face. Joe, that was That's where 334 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 2: the nose job murder comes from. I shot him in 335 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 2: the face, and I gave him the nose job he 336 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 2: always wanted. 337 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: Wow, you know, it's not too often I think a 338 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: lot of people. Again, forgive me, Dave. You know, I'm 339 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: always referring to things that we see in Hollywood. Things 340 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 1: we see in movies as kind of a point of reference, 341 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 1: but we I feel as though I'm compelled to do 342 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 1: that because they get so much wrong, and you know, 343 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: from a forensics perspective, how we handle cases and probability 344 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: and all sorts of things. First off, headshots are very 345 00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 1: difficult to score really when you think about it, yes are. Yeah. 346 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: You know, when when you're firing, it's a smaller object. 347 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 1: You know, if you're in the military, if you've worked 348 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: in law enforcement, or if you just enjoy weapons and 349 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: you go out training and you have an instructor, the 350 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,360 Speaker 1: one thing they're always going to tell you, particularly when 351 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 1: you're thinking about firing from the perspective of an aggressor 352 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: coming at you, you always fire for center mass. Okay. 353 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: Center mass means that, you know, essentially, if you think 354 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,360 Speaker 1: about from the shoulders to the abdomen, okay, well that's 355 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 1: a much bigger target than the head, right. So it's 356 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 1: and Hollywood loves to deal in fantasy, okay, and it's 357 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 1: it's fantastical many times to think, well, they scored a 358 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: head shot from a great distance. I love these movies 359 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: that show someone firing a pistol and it's from yards 360 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 1: and yards and yards away, and they score you know, 361 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: a center mass. I mean they score a head shot 362 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: as opposed to firing at center as to knock the 363 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: person down. And those are the exceptions, not the rules. Okay, However, 364 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: if you do score a headshot, the first thing, as 365 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: far as range of fire goes, that I like to 366 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: think of is that I think about proximity because most 367 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: of the time when you fire fire a weapon, it 368 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: is now. It's different firing at static targets. You know, 369 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: if you've got a paper target that's hanging up, or 370 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 1: if you're shooting you know, I don't know, old coffee 371 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: cans off of a fence post, which my grandfather used 372 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: to do. Taught me how to shoot that way with 373 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: a BB gun. Actually, that's completely different than working in 374 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: a dynamic environment. We have an individual advancing on you. 375 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: You know, say you've got this woman who is being 376 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: abused and she feels threatened and she shoes do you 377 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 1: want to hear? Literally right now, I want to tell 378 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: you about this one of the most fantastic, I say fantastic, 379 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 1: one of the most unbelievable shots that I have ever 380 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: borne witness to as an investigator and again, Now this 381 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: is a true case of domestic abuse. There was case 382 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 1: that I worked many many years ago, immediately adjacent to 383 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: the New Orleans International Airport, and there was a trailer 384 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: park underneath an overpass, if you can imagine that. So 385 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: you're living beneath an underpass an overpass in trailers, immediately 386 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: adjacent to the airport, which is an international airport, and 387 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: it's busy. So you've got the sound of traffic over you, 388 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: and you've also got the sound of jets taking off 389 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: and landing there at lou Armstrong Airport. Dave, there was 390 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: this man and a woman that lived together in this trailer, 391 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,640 Speaker 1: and the trailer itself had a set of concrete steps 392 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 1: that you would push up to the side, you know, 393 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: prefab steps. That was a single entrance into it that 394 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 1: actually had steps, and they had a screen door on 395 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 1: the trailer and they would leave the primary interior door open. Well, 396 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: he had beaten this poor woman over and over again. 397 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: He'd get hammered, drunk, he'd raise his hand to her 398 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 1: and then he would have these you know, bold things 399 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: that he would get out in the yard, start screaming 400 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: at the trailer at her, you know, calling her names, 401 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: and just continuing to just act like a wild man 402 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: after he'd beat her. They'd had the police that had 403 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: rolled out there a couple of times. The locals that 404 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: lived there, they saw it happen. You know, they saw 405 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,719 Speaker 1: him demonstrating out there outside of the trailer. You know, 406 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: I guess, like marking his territory or something after he 407 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 1: would hit this poor woman. Well, he did it one 408 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: too many times, Dave. And this comes down to the idea, 409 00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: the most incredible shot that I've ever seen, according to witnesses. Now, 410 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,199 Speaker 1: I saw the aftermath, okay, but according to witnesses, they 411 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: heard arguing going on, or they heard him screaming. He 412 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: had walked out of the house off those concrete steps. 413 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: The screen door was closed behind him, and he said 414 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:23,959 Speaker 1: something to her to the effect, I'm going to come 415 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: back in there and beat your ass again. And he 416 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,199 Speaker 1: had said that, and he's screaming this, and he's screaming 417 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: it over and over again, and this poor and she 418 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 1: was a little bitty tiny thing. She retrieves a twenty 419 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: five caliber pistol, which is one of the smallest caliber 420 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: handguns you can have. Some people refer to it as 421 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: a pocket pistol or a belly gun. He is at 422 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: the base of the stairs, Dave, and he's yelling at her, 423 00:27:55,560 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: and somebody says they heard him say you've oh, you've 424 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 1: got the gun. You've got the gun. Go ahead, go ahead. 425 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: I'm a man, I can take it. And he made 426 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: that pronouncement one more time, I'm a man I can 427 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 1: take and it cut off and it was replaced with 428 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: a sound of pop. Dave. She shot this guy through 429 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 1: an intermediate target, which is the screen door on a 430 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 1: downward trajectory, and Dave, here comes a big finish. His 431 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: mouth was open, he was in mid sentence. That round 432 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: passed through his open mouth and actually lodged, actually lodged 433 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: in in the base of his brain at the stem 434 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: his spine at the at the stem of the spinal 435 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: cord there the brain stem rather and dropped him immediately 436 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: to his knees. Now that goes to range of fire 437 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: in proximity. How do you score it? Well, that was 438 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: a one in a million shot through a screen door, 439 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: through an into an open mouth and lodging in the 440 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: rain stem. When we look at the this Huber's case 441 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: involving you know Ron pottson these shots that were fired 442 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: and I think they've give me, correct me if I'm wrong. 443 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: How many were there? There were six six. 444 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 2: There were two shots right away and ear witnesses two 445 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 2: quick shots and then quiet for enough time to be 446 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 2: noted by the ear witnesses next door, and then a 447 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 2: succession of four more shots. So bam bam, bam, bam, 448 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 2: bam bam. 449 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,479 Speaker 1: And that and it was a three eighty pistol that 450 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: she had. And that's that is like in when we 451 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: think about these belly guns, as I've mentioned just a 452 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: second ago, pocket pistols, you've got you've got three there 453 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: used to be four, uh, and you can still find 454 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: the fourth caliber, but it's rare twenty two caliber, Okay, 455 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: twenty two caliber pistol. And this is you can hold 456 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: it in the palm of your hand and people wouldn't 457 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: know that you have it. A twenty five caliber, the 458 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: afore mentioned caliber I was referring to with this this 459 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: miraculous shot. And then three eighty. The three eighty is 460 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: zero point three eight zero caliber. It's just like a 461 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: thirty eight special, but it's not the three eighty. The 462 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: three eighty caliber is not as robust as a thirty 463 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: eight special, which cops used to carry. The diameter of 464 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: the projectile is is the same, okay, But the robustness, 465 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: the length, the weight of the projectile of a three 466 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: to eighty versus a thirty eight special is not as 467 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: as robust as a thirty eight special. But you'll see 468 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: people that want to have a concealed weapon on them 469 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: carry these things. And Dave, you have to be in 470 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: close proximity for these things to be effective. Okay, now 471 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: you can. You can score a shot from a distance, 472 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: but with those smaller calibers like that at a greater distance, 473 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: it's as much luck as it is skilled. So this 474 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: tells me about this case that you had to have 475 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: very close proximity when this weapon was being fired. And 476 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: here's another bit about this. The assessment of Ryan's injuries 477 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:31,959 Speaker 1: indicated that he had stippling on his face all about, 478 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, associated with these rounds. And 479 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, for those that don't know, 480 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: those bits of evidence that are left behind by unburnt gunpowder, 481 00:31:44,640 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: for instance, will always tell the tale ballistic fingerprints. I 482 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: think that that's a term that is thrown around frequently, 483 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: and it's kind of broad ranging, depended upon how it's 484 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: being applied because you have markings on bullets. You have 485 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 1: things that are kind of left behind by projectiles and 486 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: even by weapons themselves that we look at that are 487 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: going to paint the picture when a firearm is involved. 488 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 2: Dave, Now I've got questions about multiple things here, Joe. 489 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 2: So one, Shannyhuvers from the very beginning claimed it was 490 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 2: self defense. And we also know that before she called 491 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 2: nine to one one she called her mother. All right, 492 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 2: So yeah, now I want to get back to the shooting. 493 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 2: You said stippling on our victim. Here, Ryan had stippling. 494 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 2: We know there are six shots. We know that Shannon 495 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 2: Huvers claims that he was standing coming towards her. The 496 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 2: story is that he pulled a gun on her, that 497 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 2: he had been beating her all day like a rag doll, 498 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 2: throwing her around and that, and that he pulled a 499 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 2: gun and she, fearing for her life, grabbed a gun 500 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 2: and shot him six times in the face. And that's 501 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 2: her story, and she's sticking to it. So if he's 502 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 2: standing and she shoots him only because he's coming at 503 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 2: her and she fears for her life, I'm going to assume, 504 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 2: and I want you to correct me that there's going 505 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 2: to be indications of that based on blood on him 506 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 2: and surrounding areas. Prosecution claims he was not standing. They 507 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 2: claim he was sitting. I've got to assume here that 508 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 2: we've got a lot of differences between somebody standing being 509 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 2: shot in the head and sitting being shot in the head. 510 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 2: And you just said stipling. So there's a whole lot 511 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 2: to unpack here, Joe. 512 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there are. And let me kind of lay 513 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: this out to you when we say stipling relative to 514 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: our findings in forensic pathology, and stippling will be you 515 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: look at the skin and bits of unburned gunpowder will 516 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: actually be with great force slam into the skin and 517 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 1: it kind of buries itself there. And what it looks like, Okay, 518 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: this is what it looks like. Just imagine, if you will, 519 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 1: you had a handful of black pepper, okay, and you 520 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: just kind of take it and slap it onto a 521 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: particular surface. You're not kind of tossing it out, you know, 522 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: like shaking it out of a shaker. You've got a 523 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: handful of it, okay, and you lay it down on 524 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: a surface, and you'll see if you did that, you 525 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: would see it kind of concentrated in a particular area, 526 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 1: and as it begins to extend out from the center, 527 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 1: it becomes more widely dispersed. That's kind of what stippling 528 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: looks like. Most of the time, you'll have a defect, 529 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: which is just a fancy term that forensic pathologists use 530 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 1: for a whole all right, So when you're talking about 531 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: firearms related desks, so you got the hole that's generated 532 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 1: by the projectile, and that's called a defect, and then 533 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: extending out from it, you'll have these little bitty dots 534 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: that look like black pepper. Well, those dots are stippling. 535 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: That's unburned propellant or gunpowder that comes out of the 536 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: end of the muzzle when the weapon is discharged. So 537 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 1: you think that everything is burned up because you know, 538 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: it's like when you fire a bullet. I was actually 539 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,280 Speaker 1: just teaching this the other day in my intro forensics class. 540 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 1: When you fire a bullet, okay, a live round, it's 541 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: almost like launching a rocket. You have a primer cap 542 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: in the bottom. Okay, that's got an un it's it's 543 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: less stable than gunpowder itself, the primer. Because what you 544 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: want to do is you tap it. It's actually a 545 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: cap that's below there. It sends a spark through the 546 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 1: flash holes in the base of the projectile. Uh. The 547 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: powder is seated on top of the flash holes and 548 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,799 Speaker 1: the flat and the powder ignites and it drives out 549 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:25,399 Speaker 1: the projectile. And so just because this thing ignites and 550 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: it burns off and you hear the loud pop that 551 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: comes along with a weapon being fired, doesn't mean that 552 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: all that powder is consumed by the fire. Some of 553 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,840 Speaker 1: it's just gets blown out through the explosion and it's 554 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 1: it's not as it's not what an engineer would call efficient. 555 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 2: Uh. 556 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: You know. So people want to have a propellant or 557 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 1: the gunpowder, they want to have it to the point 558 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: chemically where you're going to get literally the most bang 559 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: for your buck. Sometimes it just doesn't totally ignite. That 560 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: powder's driven out of the end of the barrel and 561 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:10,720 Speaker 1: it's got to go somewhere. Here's the trick though, Dave powder. 562 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 1: If you think about talcum powder, for instance, and you 563 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:16,879 Speaker 1: just put it in your hand, you blew it out, 564 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: what's it going to do? Well, after a few feet, 565 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,880 Speaker 1: the blown air that comes out from between your lips 566 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,240 Speaker 1: is going to be insufficient to drive that powder any 567 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: further down range, away from the palm of your hand 568 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: that you've blown it out of, It's going to drift 569 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: down to the earth. Okay, Gravity's going to take over 570 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,799 Speaker 1: a bullet down well, just like that gunpowder is not 571 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:45,840 Speaker 1: very aerodynamic, Okay, it bleeds off that energy really quick 572 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: and after that initial blast it drifts away. So once 573 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 1: you get out outside, I think, in my opinion, particularly 574 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,840 Speaker 1: with a three eighty, once you get outside of about 575 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 1: eighteen to twenty five inches this particular caliber, there won't 576 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: be any evidence of it. More than likely you might 577 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: have a bit of it kind of float down and whatnot, 578 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 1: But that kind of concentrated blast that you get that's 579 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 1: going to lead to actually blasting into the skin. So 580 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 1: for us when we're talking about this and we're trying 581 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: to determine range of fire, we're going to look at 582 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: the distribution pattern of the stipling. So the further out 583 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,239 Speaker 1: it is that it extends from that little central hole 584 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,799 Speaker 1: that the bullet has made or projectile has made, the 585 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: greater the distance because it spreads out almost like a 586 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: if you're firing like bird shot out of a shotgun, 587 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:42,399 Speaker 1: it kind of spreads, well, same principle, it spreads, and 588 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 1: the further out it spreads, you know that the individual 589 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 1: firing the weapon was further away. So the tighter the concentration, 590 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 1: the closer it is. 591 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:57,359 Speaker 2: So you can tell by these shots whether or not 592 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 2: Ryan was standing or sitting. Yes, he was charging forward. 593 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 2: What did the blood tell you? Because I know that 594 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,840 Speaker 2: they actually discussed where the blood was on his shirt 595 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 2: and undershirt and is I guess he was wearing sweatpants 596 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 2: where the blood was from him? Because Shana Huvers was 597 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 2: not And by the way, her claiming that she had 598 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 2: been slung around that condo like a rag doll and 599 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 2: all that when police got to the scene, that's not 600 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:27,240 Speaker 2: what they described seeing. 601 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: What did I tell you? I think it was just 602 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 1: a couple episodes we ago. We had the same discussion 603 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 1: about what's our canned our canned line. Let's see if 604 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,759 Speaker 1: you remember it. We go to the scene and are 605 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:41,919 Speaker 1: there any what was it sign? What do we say? 606 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: Were there any signs of. 607 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 2: Joe I'm a nut. I can't and I'll give. 608 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,720 Speaker 1: It to you. Any signs of fourth century or struggle? 609 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 2: Thank you. 610 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,759 Speaker 1: That's that's kind of our that's ground zero for what 611 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 1: we do and if I've got a if I've got 612 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 1: a victim, if I've got a victim of saying he 613 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: has been beating my tail all day. As a matter 614 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,839 Speaker 1: of fact, she goes into great detail, he has been 615 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,719 Speaker 1: throwing me around like a rag doll, flung me into 616 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: the TV. Yeah, and guess what TV is still functioning. 617 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 2: With dust on it. It's got dust on it. His dad, 618 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 2: I mean, family members said he was kind of a slob. Okay, 619 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 2: they were. They're not being mean to say that it's 620 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 2: just day. He was kind of a slob, slob, and 621 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,240 Speaker 2: that's the fact that they pointed out on the TV. 622 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 2: She specifically said he's flung me into the TV. And 623 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 2: when they looked at the TV, there was dust on it. 624 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,239 Speaker 1: And that's something that we that we would notice very 625 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 1: quickly because and I've actually, I don't know if I've 626 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: ever had a television. I have had a door though, 627 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: where individual claimed that they'd been thrown into and there 628 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,240 Speaker 1: was a dusty it was, it was covered with dust, 629 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,440 Speaker 1: and I've seen a point of impact in dust and 630 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 1: you can almost make out an outline on the door 631 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: where you could see like the lateral, like the right 632 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,840 Speaker 1: lateral side impacts. I've seen this on cars, Dave dusty 633 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,439 Speaker 1: cars that people are hit by. I saw a guy 634 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:19,240 Speaker 1: that was almost bent like a pretzel that the impact 635 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,080 Speaker 1: was like in his hip of the bumper, but he 636 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 1: bent to the point where you could see his arm 637 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 1: catching himself on the hood of the car. I actually 638 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 1: had it happen on a Marta train one time. I 639 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,759 Speaker 1: had a guy that committed suicide by throwing himself in 640 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,919 Speaker 1: the main the main what's called Little five or it's 641 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 1: called actually five points, little five points in another location 642 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: in Atlanta, but in the five Points here, which is 643 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 1: the main hub where you get onto the Marta trains, 644 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 1: and you could see his arm, the outline of his 645 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 1: arm where it hit the dust, and you could see 646 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,720 Speaker 1: his fingers even extended when he was impacted by that train. 647 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,400 Speaker 1: So that kind of disturbance are lacked thereup is going 648 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,279 Speaker 1: to tell slot. If you're telling me that you've been 649 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 1: slammed around this apartment, I'm not just going to look 650 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 1: for disturbed dust on a television. I'm going to look for, 651 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,280 Speaker 1: you know, any kind of knickknack that has been busted 652 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,759 Speaker 1: or are broken. And there's a big difference listen. I 653 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,600 Speaker 1: don't know about you, but I am a slob. I 654 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: am a slob. I freely admitted. I'm I'm part of 655 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:29,520 Speaker 1: the slob kingdom. So for me, in this environment, we 656 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 1: can I can walk in I can walk into a 657 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,439 Speaker 1: hoarder's home, which I've walked into a lot of these 658 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,239 Speaker 1: homes where people have died, and I can tell what 659 00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 1: was naturally not naturally that that makes it sound like 660 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:47,480 Speaker 1: nature had a hand, But what items have been placed 661 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,920 Speaker 1: in a location and have been there for a protracted 662 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,400 Speaker 1: period of time, as opposed to somebody being in an 663 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: environment where a tussle has taken place, or maybe they've 664 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 1: fallen over and knocked something over. It just looks different. 665 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,000 Speaker 1: It looks different than sloppiness. And so I think that 666 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,400 Speaker 1: that's you know, you're right, you know, that's what his 667 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,920 Speaker 1: dad was saying about this, that yeah, my son's a slob. 668 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 1: That's okay, you know, he is a slob, But there's 669 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,279 Speaker 1: a big difference between being a slob and having you know, 670 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 1: a busted TV or maybe broken furniture or anything like that. 671 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 2: And that was their point is that, okay, he's a slob, fine, 672 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:29,160 Speaker 2: but there's no indication that a violent struggle happened in 673 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 2: this condo. And this is all in the first minutes 674 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:39,200 Speaker 2: of the investigation where they see the scene. You've got 675 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 2: the twenty nine year old dead, and she's claiming he 676 00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 2: was standing charging towards her when she shot him. The 677 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 2: physical evidence does not show that. The prosecution claims he 678 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,759 Speaker 2: was sitting at the table, Joe at the dining room table, 679 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 2: sitting at the table in a chair when he was shot. 680 00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:58,279 Speaker 2: How are you going to prove that. I mean, you 681 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,239 Speaker 2: talked about the stippling, so I understanding closed, But what 682 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 2: about the blood on the shirt and on the sweatpants. 683 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:06,880 Speaker 1: Let me tell you what's going to happen when you 684 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,520 Speaker 1: know I was talking about rhinoplasty earlier and kind of 685 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:13,120 Speaker 1: the the tools that they utilize. One of the things 686 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,200 Speaker 1: you find out with the head human head, it's very vascular. 687 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:22,840 Speaker 1: Probably out of all of the regions of the body. 688 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,440 Speaker 1: You've got more vessels that pass for the size relative 689 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,400 Speaker 1: size of the head, more vessels that pass through it 690 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,279 Speaker 1: than any other location in the body. Is because the 691 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:40,240 Speaker 1: brain demands so much blood. Okay, so when you're slammed 692 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: in the face with a projectile. One of the things 693 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,960 Speaker 1: that's going to happen are multiple little fractures all over 694 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:55,200 Speaker 1: the place. When an individual essentially takes their own life 695 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,880 Speaker 1: with a weapon, whether it be to the side of 696 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:05,200 Speaker 1: the head or in the mouth, you're fracturing that that uh, 697 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,360 Speaker 1: the floor of the skull essentially, and all of the 698 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:13,799 Speaker 1: associated support structures facial facial structures, and they have so 699 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 1: many vessels that pour that run through them. That's why 700 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:21,440 Speaker 1: you'll see like a tremendous amount of blood that issues 701 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 1: forth from the body almost immediately. And if you are 702 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: in a seated position. Okay, so where you and I 703 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:37,839 Speaker 1: are sitting across the table from one another. If we're 704 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:44,560 Speaker 1: in a seated position and a projectile hit you center 705 00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,640 Speaker 1: mass in the face, they write in the nose for 706 00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:51,880 Speaker 1: lack of a better uh, you know, anatomic position, blood 707 00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 1: is going to almost immediately begin to gush out of 708 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 1: your nose, in your mouth. I've seen this happen both ways. Well, 709 00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,080 Speaker 1: where does it wind up. Well, obviously it's going to 710 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:01,239 Speaker 1: get out of the front of your sh or if 711 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:05,360 Speaker 1: you're seated, it's going to wind up staining your lap. 712 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,360 Speaker 1: But here's the thing. When you get the body in 713 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,839 Speaker 1: a position where you can examine it and say you've 714 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,480 Speaker 1: extended the legs like on an examining table, and you're 715 00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:16,879 Speaker 1: looking at the clothing, did you know that you will 716 00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:20,400 Speaker 1: see a big bloodstain on the lap, then probably on 717 00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,040 Speaker 1: the upper chest, maybe running down the abdomen. But when 718 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,239 Speaker 1: the legs are extended, you'll see a big gap in 719 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:31,280 Speaker 1: the waste between where the blood starts on the tops 720 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:35,160 Speaker 1: of the thighs and where it ends at, say the abdomen. 721 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:37,680 Speaker 1: When you spread the body out, you'll see a gap, 722 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,880 Speaker 1: and that gives you an indication that perhaps a person 723 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,800 Speaker 1: was in a seated position. Now you have to couple 724 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,880 Speaker 1: that when you begin to talk about her relationship relative 725 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 1: and I'm talking about physical, dynamic crime scene relationship. We're 726 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:57,800 Speaker 1: not talking about doctor Phil here where you're you also 727 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:02,400 Speaker 1: have to factor in trajectory because it's not just his position, 728 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,839 Speaker 1: it's her position as well. So if you look at 729 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:11,680 Speaker 1: if you look at where positionality relative to the end 730 00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,360 Speaker 1: of the muzzle, was she firing from above to below? 731 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:16,680 Speaker 1: And remember when you read a lot of these autopsy 732 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,919 Speaker 1: reports involving and you and I certainly have you begin 733 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,800 Speaker 1: to describe these injuries, the physician will always talk about 734 00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,839 Speaker 1: it's left to right, front to back, and either from 735 00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:32,600 Speaker 1: below to above or from above to below. That gives 736 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:35,719 Speaker 1: us that's a three dimensional portrait that you're painting their 737 00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,440 Speaker 1: relative to trajectory, and that's important as well. So it's 738 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,120 Speaker 1: not just a range of fire, it's also the trajectory. 739 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,160 Speaker 1: But I got to tell you, I want to conclude 740 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:49,479 Speaker 1: by saying this a quote directly from my good friend 741 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,640 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, and hopefully she won't come down too hard 742 00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:58,040 Speaker 1: on me for, you know, borrowing this, but she always says, 743 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:02,560 Speaker 1: if you want to know the whole horse, check its 744 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:10,360 Speaker 1: track record. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body bags. 745 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:13,680 Speaker 2: Mhm m 746 00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:16,319 Speaker 1: Mm hmm