1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 3: And my name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 2: We have a fun journey to take you on in 5 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 2: the next couple of episodes, probably going to be a 6 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 2: two parter, but who knows. We never know. We don't 7 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 2: know what the future is going to bring. But this 8 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 2: is one that on the surface of things, you might think, oh, well, 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 2: oil and water, how interesting could that get? But it 10 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 2: gets pretty interesting because you know, we're going to get 11 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 2: into divination, We're going to get into the idea of 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 2: pouring storm oil into the sea to calm turbulent waters. 13 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 2: There's a lot to talk about here, but at the 14 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 2: very base level, oil and water two things that famously 15 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 2: don't mix. You've probably observed varying levels of the interaction before. 16 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 2: Perhaps you've just seen like a film of oil on 17 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 2: the surface of a puddle, or you've observed the separation 18 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 2: of cooking oil combined with another liquid in a mixing bowl. 19 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 2: It instantly catches the eye. I'm not going to say 20 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 2: it necessarily always captures the human imagination, but there is 21 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 2: something about it that you can't help. 22 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 3: But notice, did you ever have one of those toys 23 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 3: when you were a kid? Where there is I actually 24 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 3: don't know what liquids they use in these, but presumably 25 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 3: it's water and then some kind of lipid based colored liquid, 26 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 3: maybe like red or blue, that bubbles through the water 27 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 3: and maybe spins a little pin wheel or something. 28 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I know what you're talking about. I 29 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 2: do remember these. They're really fun for a brief period 30 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 2: of time, and then they go into the junk drawer. 31 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 3: Well, maybe I'm just easily amused. I remember turning mine 32 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 3: over and over a lot. 33 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean it's memorable. I'm not saying it's 34 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 2: forgotten that it certainly ends up in the toy chest. 35 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 3: I bet that one's really fun when it breaks. That'd 36 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 3: be a great origin story for like a long dormant 37 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:10,519 Speaker 3: virus or something, the dangerous microorganism. In case, within the 38 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 3: item of power. 39 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,839 Speaker 2: What strange oil did they end up using. Yeah, well 40 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 2: it's not just children, it's not just the inner child 41 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 2: as well. Humans have found interactions of oil and water 42 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 2: intriguing since ancient times. And yeah, indeed it does trace 43 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,799 Speaker 2: back into the realm of ancient magic. And divination, you know, 44 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 2: various tales and we'll touch on some of these, of 45 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 2: like ancient kings and so forth, seeking out the word 46 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 2: and the wisdom of diviners who use various methods to 47 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 2: sort of reach into the murky future and make sense 48 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 2: of the strange shapes there. Now. Divination is, of course 49 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 2: the attempt to seek guidance concerning the future and decisions 50 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: that impact future events. As we've discussed in the show before. 51 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 2: You can certainly think of it as a as the 52 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 2: right of supernatural guidance, which it is, but especially in 53 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 2: the ancient context too, we might think of it as 54 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,799 Speaker 2: well as a means of sort of generating a randomized 55 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 2: direction that is weighted by belief or superstition. You know, 56 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 2: if presented with two choices, all things being equal, you know, 57 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 2: flip a coin, but not a trivial coin, not a 58 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 2: completely trivial coin, because this coin is weighted by supernatural belief. 59 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: But then also you keep it from being just you know, 60 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 2: completely random, because it also entails an art of interpretation. 61 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 2: It's not just a coin anyone can flip and anyone 62 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 2: can read. You need a specialist who's going to read 63 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 2: the coin read whatever it is you're reading and perhaps 64 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 2: too you know, read the client, read the patron, and 65 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 2: or the you know, the larger events going on and 66 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: so so, Yeah, there's a there's an art to divination 67 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: as well. 68 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 3: So it's often interesting when you think about a lot 69 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 3: of the stories of what the interpreter does. I mean, 70 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,839 Speaker 3: there are some cases where they get real secific about things, 71 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 3: but most of the time it seems like they are 72 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 3: adding in ambiguity that makes it harder to falsify the prediction. 73 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, sort of the you know, there's obviously an art 74 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 2: to the cold read, and you know there's a level 75 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 2: of manipulation to carrying it out as well. And also 76 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 2: there's a lot of self preservation, especially when you're dealing 77 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 2: with you know, dark and gloomy kings and ancient times. 78 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 2: If you want to be a diviner that lives a 79 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: long life, or even a reasonably long life, you do 80 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 2: have to read the room and figure out exactly what 81 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 2: kind of message you're going to relay to the ruler. 82 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 3: Look, I always said there would be a decisive victory. 83 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 3: I didn't say which side would get it. 84 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 2: So there are various methods of divination that have been 85 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 2: used over the years. We talked about about many on 86 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 2: the show before in the past, and we're going to 87 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 2: touch on several different ones here, but specifically concerning oil 88 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 2: and water divination. This is what the ancient Greeks would 89 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 2: come to call lacanamancy, the use of oil poured into 90 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 2: a basin of water to tell the future. 91 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. So the name lacanomancy comes from the Greek lacane, 92 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 3: meaning bowl. So this is lacanomancy meaning bowl divination. And 93 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 3: in the literature, yeah, it seems most often to refer 94 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 3: to omens in mixtures of oil or water, either in 95 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 3: a bowl or in a cup, and could apparently be 96 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 3: done either way, maybe by I think more often by 97 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 3: pouring oil into water, but maybe also by pouring water 98 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 3: into oil. Though there are some other definitions for this 99 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 3: word that seem to overlap with the concept of hydromancy, 100 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 3: meaning divination through water. And since the name only means bowl, 101 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 3: like the name doesn't mean oil, I guess it could 102 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 3: also involve these other things like you have a bowl 103 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 3: of water and you drop gems in it and see 104 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 3: what they do to get your omen, or you drop 105 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 3: gold or silver coins in, or you like move, you know, 106 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 3: move the water around and see which way the ripples go. 107 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 3: There are a number of ways of doing this, but 108 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 3: the oil in water one seems to have been prominent 109 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 3: in the ancient Near East. 110 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this lines up with what I was reading 111 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 2: as well. I was looking at a book from nineteen 112 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 2: eighty one titled Oracles and Divination, and in particular, there's 113 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 2: a section in it by O. R. Gurney that says, yes, 114 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 2: these these practices, they tended to involve a bowl or 115 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 2: a basin of some sort. And yes, one would either 116 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 2: pour oil into water or water into oil, and the 117 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 2: oil would cause various shapes on the surface of the water, 118 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 2: and these would be used through the diviner's ar or 119 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 2: the barrus art. I believe barrow is the term in 120 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 2: like ancient Babylon to predict the future. There is also 121 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 2: a variation called al romance, which used flour instead of oil. 122 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 2: So you know, take heart, if you're out of oil 123 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 2: and you have some flour on hand, you can also 124 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 2: go with that. 125 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 3: Method make you the loosest of dose. 126 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 2: Now. Gurney also mentions that there now are slash were 127 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 2: I'm not sure if this is like the current count. 128 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 2: This is againotext from eighty one the six known surviving 129 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 2: tablets from ancient Mesopotamia dealing with oil omens, and the 130 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 2: author includes a couple of examples here that I wanted 131 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 2: to read. So these would be different nuggets of wisdom 132 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 2: to help you the diviner interpret what's happening in the bowl. Quote. 133 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 2: If from the middle of the oil two drops come out, 134 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 2: one big, the other small, the man's wife will bear 135 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 2: a sun for a sick man. He will recover. And 136 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 2: then the next one here concerns the use of flower 137 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 2: instead of oil. If the flower in the east takes 138 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 2: the shape of a lion's face, the man is in 139 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: the grip of a ghost of one who lies in 140 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 2: the open country. The sun will consign it, the ghost 141 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 2: to the wind, and he will get well. 142 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 3: Oh wow, that's creepy. So wait, flower forms a lion's face, 143 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 3: What does that mean? The ghost of one who lies 144 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 3: in the open country? Does that mean a ghost of 145 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 3: someone who didn't receive a proper burial? Would that be? 146 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: That was what it made me think of. I'm not certain, 147 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 2: and the author doesn't go into detail on this, but yeah, 148 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 2: it made me think of other superstitions we've discussed from 149 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 2: other traditions involving the unburied or the improperly buried dead. 150 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 3: This was a subject often of great concern in the 151 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 3: literature and folklore of the ancient world. That like people 152 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 3: like not getting a proper burial was really something you 153 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 3: didn't want. 154 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, another form of divination that he mentions is lebanomancy, 155 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 2: which is divination by smoke from throwing cedar shavings on 156 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 2: an incense burner. And this would be kind of similar, 157 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,199 Speaker 2: like you throw the wood shavings on their smoke billows up, 158 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 2: and however the smoke is moving, what shapes it seems 159 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 2: to be forming that is the basis of your vision 160 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 2: of the future. Now, he writes that the use of 161 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 2: entrails and a sacrificed animal would become more popular, but oil, 162 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 2: flower and smoke based divination would remain a cheaper option, 163 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 2: but also still one that would be invoked and used 164 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 2: by various important individuals, including kings, such as when Cassite 165 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 2: King Agam the Second, he says prayed to the god 166 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: Shamish by oil before setting out on a quest to 167 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 2: reclaim stolen statues of Marduk and Sarpanitum. 168 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 3: It's interesting that you mentioned lacanamancy as a cheaper alternative 169 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 3: to reading omens in the entrails of sacrificed animals. I 170 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 3: came across that exact same claim in some other sources. 171 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 3: I don't know if they're citing from a common source 172 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 3: that says that, but yeah, that is interesting obviously. So 173 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 3: I guess the benefit of reading the entrails of a 174 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 3: sacrificed animal is you're almost like, you know, you're paying 175 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 3: for the really high price ticket your message from the gods, 176 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 3: Like you're taking a good animal getting it sacrificed. I 177 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 3: suppose at the altar of the god you're asking for 178 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 3: the answer from and then it's entrails will tell you 179 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 3: something and the budget option, yeah, is just a little 180 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 3: bit of olive oil and some water or some flour 181 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 3: or something like that. 182 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I'm just guessing here, but I mean, maybe 183 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 2: that's not always available. Maybe sometimes the old ways are 184 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 2: thought the best, or maybe sometimes you have a situation 185 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 2: where even a king is getting a second or third 186 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 2: opinion on a matter and it's like, well, okay, what 187 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 2: do the laconda mancers have to say about this? Maybe 188 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,199 Speaker 2: they'll give me the answer that I want to hear. 189 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 2: Now the author here Gurney goes on and mentions that 190 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 2: there's also a form of lacando mency that was used 191 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 2: by the Hittites that involved a basin or a tub 192 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 2: filled with water. Certainly, but instead of adding oil or flour, 193 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 2: you would add what might be a snake or possibly 194 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 2: an eel, and its movements in the enclosed space of 195 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 2: the tank would foretell the future. And it does not 196 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 2: in this case sound like the animal was sacrificed. It's 197 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 2: just about you put the animal in there, watch it 198 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 2: swim around. How does it behave its movements are going 199 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 2: to reveal what the future holds for us? Now, another 200 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,559 Speaker 2: source I was looking at concerning this topic appears in 201 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 2: the Influence of surface films on interfacial flow Dynamics from 202 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety seven by Sean Patrick McKenna, and this author 203 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 2: writes that lakana manci is, of course one of the 204 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 2: forms of divination practice during the eighteenth century BCE in 205 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:43,319 Speaker 2: the Hamarabi ruled Old Babylonian Empire, and points out, yeah, 206 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 2: there's several tablets of the time period unearthed in the 207 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 2: nineteenth and twentieth centuries that list examples of the kind 208 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 2: of mancy and guides for interpreting what's going on in 209 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 2: the water. This author also shares some examples translated from 210 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 2: these tablets. A few of these include the following. If 211 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 2: the oil sinks, then rises and spreads around the water 212 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,959 Speaker 2: for the campaign, unfavorable consequences for the sick divine punishment. 213 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 2: If the oil splits in two for the campaign. Both 214 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 2: camps should march together for the sick death. If a 215 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 2: drop emerges in the east and remain stationary for the campaign, 216 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 2: booty for the sick recovery. If two drops emerge, one large, 217 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 2: one small, a male child will be born for the 218 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 2: sick recovery. If the oil fills the bowl for the 219 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 2: sick death for the campaign, defeat for the leader. 220 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 3: This last one actually raises questions for me, because the 221 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 3: question is if the oil fills the bowl. Knowing what 222 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 3: we know about the physics of oil and water today, 223 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 3: I mean, I think what will pretty much always happen 224 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 3: is that over time, any oil in the water will 225 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 3: spread out as far as it can, and so it 226 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 3: will pretty much always spread to fill the surface of water. 227 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 3: Are in a bowl, so it takes time for it 228 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 3: to do that. So maybe you've got to put a 229 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 3: time limit on it. Otherwise it's always going to be 230 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 3: death or defeat for the leader, I would think. 231 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there has to be an immediacy to this. 232 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,719 Speaker 2: And obviously, if you especially if you don't have a 233 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 2: steady hand, all of your divinations can't be you know, 234 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 2: death for the sick and defeat for the leader of 235 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 2: an army. That's going to be bad for business, I think. 236 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 3: But it's interesting to see the pairings of the different 237 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 3: interpretations with like the two different kinds of battles, the 238 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 3: battle for health within the body in the battle you know, 239 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 3: for the in the military campaign going on for the king. 240 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 3: So some of these pairings make sense to me, Like 241 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 3: unfavorable consequences for the military campaign with divine punishment for 242 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 3: the sick death and defeat death and defeat booty and recovery. 243 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 3: That pairing makes sense. The one I was confused about 244 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 3: is if the oil splits in two, that means for 245 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 3: the sick death for the campaign, both camps should march together. 246 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm not exactly sure what to make of that either. 247 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, though, I like that because that's not just stating 248 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 3: an outcome, that's giving advice Yeah. 249 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 2: Now, obviously another issue that all this raises is you know, 250 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 2: what what kinds of oil are you using? What kinds 251 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 2: of water? You know, there could conceivably be differences in 252 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 2: the reaction that takes place. Well, one source I looked 253 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 2: at this is from D. Tabor. This is from nineteen 254 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 2: eighty Babylonian Lacanomancy, an ancient text on the spreading of 255 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 2: oil on water, and in that the author suggests that 256 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 2: the water here is likely rain water and the oil 257 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 2: is some manner of vegetable oil. I found that interesting, 258 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 2: like the rain water, especially because on one hand, okay, 259 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 2: I guess this is going to be how you're going 260 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 2: to obtain the purest water that is also free of 261 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: any oils that might you know, otherwise contaminated. And then 262 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 2: on the other hand, there is something kind of supernatural 263 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 2: to it as well, like this is the water that 264 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 2: came from the sky, from the realm of the gods, 265 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 2: and therefore I can imagine that playing a role in 266 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 2: all of this as well. Now, another interesting thing that 267 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 2: came up in one of these sources is they pointed 268 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 2: this out Joe that apparently in the Old Testament, in 269 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 2: Genesis forty four or five, there is a reference to lacanamancy. 270 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 2: There's a there's a bit that goes, is not this 271 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 2: it in which my Lord drinketh, and whereby indeed he divineth, 272 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 2: he have done evil in so doing so? 273 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 3: This is a very interesting case. I think this is 274 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 3: not necessarily a reference to lacanomancy, though that is a 275 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 3: good candidate for what it is referring to. It is 276 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 3: definitely refer to a form of divination, which means I 277 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 3: think maybe this is a good time for a digression 278 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 3: on references to divination in the Bible. And here I 279 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 3: have to apologize because I got seriously over zealous in 280 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 3: pursuing this digression, which is only lightly related to the 281 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 3: topic to begin with, So please bear with me. But 282 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 3: I think it's an interesting subject. So there are actually 283 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 3: a lot of references to divination in the Bible. The 284 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 3: Hebrew Bible, or what Christians would call the Old Testament, 285 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 3: contains references to a bunch of different methods of divination. 286 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 3: First of all, there is actually a divination method officially 287 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 3: sanctioned by the Torah and by the priest class in 288 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,239 Speaker 3: the Bible, which is known as the Urim and Thummim, 289 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 3: which seems to have been some other kind of object. 290 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 3: It's like a pair of objects worn on the ceremonial 291 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 3: breastplate of the high priest. And while the exact form 292 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 3: of these objects and the procedure for using is not certain, 293 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 3: it seems they would essentially be used for casting lots 294 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 3: of some kind by the high priest in order to 295 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 3: receive answers from God, possibly answers to yes or no 296 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 3: questions about what would happen in the future, will we 297 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 3: be successful in battle and so forth, or answers to 298 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,479 Speaker 3: questions about the guilt or innocence of an alleged sinner. 299 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 3: Sometimes they're represented as like gems that flash with a 300 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 3: divine light in order to project messages. I think there 301 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 3: were some interpretations in the later rabbinical literature like this, 302 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 3: but I think that's all sort of like later writers 303 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 3: speculating on what these original passages in the scriptures meant. 304 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 2: Now the urim and thummim here, if I'm correct on this, 305 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:45,959 Speaker 2: this is this kind of often depict that is kind 306 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 2: of a multi code. Like you said, crystal plate that 307 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 2: is worn from the neck, And I remember as a child, 308 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 2: I would experience a certain amount of excitement and maybe 309 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 2: a little bit of fusion, because at the time I 310 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 2: would have my Star Wars books on one hand, and 311 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 2: then I would have, you know, some of these illustrated 312 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 2: like Old Testament stories books on the other, and these 313 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 2: looked like kind of these made me think of the 314 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 2: chest plate of Darth Vader. 315 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 3: Oh wow, yeah, well the chess plate of Darth Vader. 316 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 3: Like it's got all the little tic TACs and stuff on it. 317 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 2: Red lights and all, and oftentimes these illustrations you see 318 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 2: some sort of like red gems in there as well. 319 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think what it does. What is clear 320 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:32,199 Speaker 3: is that these objects are linked to the breastplate of 321 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 3: the high priest in some way, like it said that 322 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 3: maybe they are put in or put on the breastplate, 323 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 3: but it's not exactly clear what they are. But what 324 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 3: is clear is that they are somehow used in an 325 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:51,120 Speaker 3: officially in bounds divination process. This is what the followers 326 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 3: of the God of Israel were supposed to use for 327 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,919 Speaker 3: divination purposes if they needed to. But the Hebrew Bible 328 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 3: also contains numerous references to other forms of divination, such 329 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 3: as necromancy. This is apparently a big concern in the 330 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 3: era of the Mosaic Law, and despite its modern interpretation 331 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 3: as a kind of evil sorcery used for like calling 332 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 3: up armies of undead skeleton soldiers and zombie swarms to go, 333 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:24,239 Speaker 3: you know, get your paladins, Originally necromancy meant communication with 334 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 3: the dead for the purpose of divination, not raising zombie soldiers. 335 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 2: Now, to be clear, even in like the modern Dungeons 336 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 2: and Dragons ecusage of necromancy, yes, there's a lot of 337 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 2: calling up the dead and using all sorts of you know, 338 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 2: weird spectral hands and so forth. There is still a 339 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 2: little bit of talking to the dead, though they keep 340 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 2: it real a little bit there, and we see a 341 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 2: bit of that in the recent Dungeons and Dragons movie. 342 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 2: There's a whole scene of speaking with the dead and 343 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 2: trying to gain wisdom from them. 344 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,919 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's played mostly for comedy, I recall. Yeah, 345 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 3: like they have a fixed number of questions they can 346 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,640 Speaker 3: ask and so forth. Yeah, so that's what necromancy means 347 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 3: in this though it's not. Yeah, it's not the zombie soldiers. 348 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 3: It's the talking to the dead for the purposes of 349 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 3: gaining hidden information or knowing the past or knowing the future. Anyway, 350 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 3: in the Mosaic law there are general prohibitions against divination 351 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 3: and wizardry and magic of all forms, but one of 352 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 3: the forms of divination that is specifically called out in 353 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 3: these verses is necromancy. Also, there is a very famous 354 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 3: story in the Bible about a consultation with a dead prophet. 355 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 3: This is in First Samuel chapter twenty eight, where Saul, 356 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 3: the King of Israel, famously he goes to a village 357 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 3: called Indoor to meet with a wise woman or a 358 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 3: witch who can speak to the dead. And this is 359 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 3: significant in the story because Saul has condemned witchcraft and 360 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 3: has previously banished all the wizards and fortune tellers from Israel. 361 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 3: But then he's facing a military conflict with another nation, 362 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 3: with the Philistines, and he wants to know what he 363 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 3: should do, and apparently he tries to get an answer 364 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 3: from the sanctioned methods of information. He tries to consult 365 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 3: the Urim and Thummim, He tries to have a dream 366 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 3: from God or get some kind of direct revelation, and 367 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 3: nothing ends up with no guidance and has no idea 368 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 3: what to do from any of the official channels, so 369 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 3: he goes rogue he violates his own edict. He puts 370 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 3: on a disguise and seeks out a necromancer to speak 371 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 3: to the dead prophet Samuel. He wants to get Samuel's 372 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 3: advice on what he should do, and this does not 373 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 3: go well, so he does go to the woman in disguise. 374 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 3: She figures out it's Saul by the way. She's like, oh, 375 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 3: wait a minute, you said we're not allowed to do this, 376 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 3: and he's like, oh no, don't worry about it. I 377 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 3: need you to talk to Samuel. So she raises Samuel 378 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 3: from the grave. I think she can see him, but 379 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 3: Saul can't, and he's trying to talk with him, and 380 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 3: Samuel just does not help. He seems to be kind 381 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 3: of irritated for being woken up from the sleep of death, 382 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,880 Speaker 3: and then he condemn for his treachery, and then Samuel 383 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 3: tells him that his army is going to be defeated 384 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 3: and he will lose his kingship, and Samuel is right. 385 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 3: The army is defeated and Saul falls on his own 386 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 3: sword and dies. And this story seems to, at least 387 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 3: in part, emphasize how you really shouldn't go off trail 388 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 3: on divination methods. 389 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, stick to the legal methods. Don't go into a 390 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 2: legal divination. 391 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 3: By the way, if you've never seen it, everyone should 392 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,919 Speaker 3: look up William Blake's painting of Saul and the Spirit 393 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 3: of Samuel and the Witch of Indoor. 394 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 2: Brilliant, brilliant. Yeah, I mean all of Blake's illustrations. Those 395 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 2: hand colored illustrations are always so great. This one's no exception. 396 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 2: By the way. The Witch of Indoor would also come 397 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 2: to play a part in the nineteen eighty five film 398 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 2: The Battle for Indoor. Weird how cinema listeners may remember 399 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 2: no real connection to the Biblical account other than the 400 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 2: other that we're dealing with a moon of indoor and 401 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 2: there is a witch on it. 402 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 3: You are also not supposed to divine the future with 403 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 3: the help of Wilfrid Brimley. But anyway, So that's a 404 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 3: story from the Bible from after the delivery of the 405 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,880 Speaker 3: Mosaic Law, which contains all of these prohibitions against divination 406 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 3: in general, presumably with the exception of the urim and 407 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 3: thumim and the prohibitions against necromancy in particular. But there 408 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 3: are also interesting references to divination from before the law, 409 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 3: when it seems to have different connotations. So one of 410 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 3: these that occurs here is the example you raised earlier. 411 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 3: This is where we're coming back to La Canamancy. This 412 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 3: is the story of Joseph in the Book of Genesis, 413 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 3: which is a long and complicated story, so I'll try 414 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 3: to do the very condensed and simplified version. Joseph is 415 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,120 Speaker 3: one of the twelve sons of the biblical patriarch Jacob, 416 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 3: and Jacob in the story shows favoritism toward him over 417 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 3: his other brothers, even buying him a splendid coat of 418 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 3: many colors. They made a musical about. 419 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 2: It, yes, classic story. 420 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 3: But his brothers, who are less favored by their father, 421 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 3: become very jealous, so one day they conspire. They beat 422 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 3: him up, they trap him in a well, and they 423 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 3: sell him into slavery, where he ends up being transported 424 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 3: to Egypt. But they take Joseph's coat to their father, 425 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 3: covered in the blood of a goat, and convince him 426 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 3: that Joseph was killed by a wild animal. 427 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 2: Again classic children's story. I remember reading it alongside My 428 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 2: Star Wars as a child. 429 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 3: But in Egypt, Joseph does pretty well. He manages to 430 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 3: rise from lowly servitude and at one point he's imprisoned, 431 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 3: he manages to rise out of that to the rank 432 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 3: of the pharaoh's most senior lieutenant. He's like the number 433 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,479 Speaker 3: two in Egypt. And the way he does this is 434 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 3: by showing a talent for divination. He is able to 435 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 3: interpret the omens of the future in dreams, and by 436 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 3: correctly analyzing Pharaoh's dreams, he brings great prosperity to Egypt 437 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 3: at a time of famine for all the surrounding nations. Actually, 438 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 3: since it matters to my interpretation of this story in 439 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 3: a minute, the specific way this works is that the 440 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 3: Pharaoh dreams of seven fat cows that are eaten. They're 441 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,959 Speaker 3: like swallowed up by seven lean cows, and seven rotten 442 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 3: stalks of grain. That consumes seven good stalks of grain, 443 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 3: and Joseph realizes that this means there are going to 444 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 3: be seven years of good crops followed by seven years 445 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,959 Speaker 3: of famine, and so to anticipate the famine, the Egyptians 446 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 3: must ration their good crops and store up extra grain 447 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 3: during the years of abundance. Joseph's prediction, or his interpretation 448 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 3: of the dream comes true, and so later suffering from 449 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 3: famine like all of the surrounding nations are. Joseph's brothers 450 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 3: come to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, whom they 451 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 3: do not recognize. They don't know it's him, and then 452 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 3: they have several interactions actually, but in the last one 453 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 3: in secret, Joseph hides his silver cup in the grain bag, 454 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 3: married by his youngest brother, Benjamin. He then arranges to 455 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 3: have his youngest brother caught quote stealing the cup again 456 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 3: he actually actually planted it on him, and then demands 457 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 3: Benjamin be given to him as a slave as punishment. 458 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 3: And instead, their older brother Judah, asks that he be 459 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 3: made a slave in Benjamin's place, and this causes Joseph 460 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 3: to break down in tears. He reveals his identity, he 461 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 3: forgives his brothers, and the family is reunited and allowed 462 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 3: to relocate to a fertile part of Egypt. But it 463 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 3: is the part of the story about the silver cup 464 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 3: that relates to divination. So when Joseph's steward finds the 465 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 3: silver cup hidden in Benjamin's sack, he says, just as 466 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,360 Speaker 3: Joseph commands him to, He says, why have you repaid 467 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 3: evil for good? Is not this the one from which 468 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 3: my lord drinks? And with which he indeed practices divination. 469 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 3: You have done evil in so doing. Now, of course, 470 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 3: it doesn't say exactly what kind of divination he does 471 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 3: in the cup, So it could be a form of hydromancy, 472 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 3: where you would, you know, put water in the cup 473 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 3: or some liquid and drop coins or gems or other 474 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,479 Speaker 3: objects into the water and see what they do. It 475 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,400 Speaker 3: could be maybe used for a form of scrying, since 476 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 3: it's silver. Scrying is reading the future in reflections and 477 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 3: a shiny surface such as a silver cup. Often a 478 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 3: crystal ball is used for scrying. But based on a 479 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 3: lot of the commentaries, I found a good candidate for 480 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 3: what is being described here is lacnomancy, where he would be, 481 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 3: you know, dropping oil into water, or doing one of 482 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 3: the other things we've been talking about. But in any case, 483 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 3: I think this passage is interesting because I think the 484 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 3: staging of the theft of the silver cup used for 485 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 3: divination is supposed to be interpreted as more profound than 486 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 3: like mere burglary of an expensive cup. This is the 487 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 3: cup in which Joseph receives owns about the future, and 488 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 3: if you remember the earlier part of the story, correctly 489 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 3: interpreting omens about the future is how Joseph rose to 490 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 3: his position of prominence in the first place. It was 491 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 3: the dream interpretations, you know, the Fadoline cows and so forth. 492 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 3: And it's also how Egypt is currently in a good 493 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,919 Speaker 3: position with this grain surplus during years of famine. So 494 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 3: in a way, I think with that gloss, it makes 495 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 3: sense to wonder if stealing Joseph's divination cup in the 496 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 3: story is kind of an espionage caper. It would be 497 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 3: like stealing the codes to the nuclear arsenal in a 498 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 3: modern spy thriller. This is a piece of supernatural technology 499 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 3: that helps give Egypt its strategic advantage over other nations. 500 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 2: Hmm. That's fascinating. So I'm a little out of practice 501 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 2: with this particular Bible story. But Joseph frames one of 502 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 2: his brothers for stealing it, but then he undoes it. Yeah, 503 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 2: he does it when another for his youngest brother. Yeah, 504 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 2: his youngest brother is then fingered for the crime, and 505 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 2: he's like, oh, I didn't want to enslave him. He 506 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 2: wanted to enslave them both. 507 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, he didn't want to enslave any 508 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 3: of them. I think I think he wanted to test them. 509 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 3: So it's one of those kind of stories. I think. 510 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 3: So he plants that, yeah, he frames his youngest brother 511 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 3: who he loves, for the crime. Then he says, I'm 512 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 3: going to make him a slave. And then because the 513 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 3: older brother is like no, no, no, take me instead. 514 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 3: Then I think that that softens his heart and he 515 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 3: forgives his brother is for what they did to him. 516 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 2: Replicated family dynamic anyway you cut it, Yes, but to 517 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 2: your point, yeah, this is not just any cup or 518 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 2: any silver cup. This isn't is this isn't an artifact 519 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 2: of the art of divination that Joseph practices. So this is, 520 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 2: this is vital, this is this has strategic importance for 521 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 2: the Egyptians. 522 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 3: Yes, and in this specific story, it is div nation 523 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 3: in particular that has made Egypt prosperous. And so anyway, 524 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 3: thinking about the idea of dropping oil and water in 525 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 3: a copper a basin to receive messages from the heavens 526 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 3: or from the gods. You know, while even mundane objects 527 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 3: were often used for divination in the ancient world, it 528 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 3: seems clear to me why the behavior of oil on 529 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 3: water could inspire a kind of oracular fascination. Like there's 530 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 3: that sense of strangeness and wonder about it that actually 531 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 3: I found to be captured quite well in a passage 532 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 3: in a letter written by Benjamin Franklin in the year 533 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 3: seventeen seventy three. We're going to get more into Benjamin Franklin, 534 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 3: I think in the next part in this series. But 535 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 3: I wanted to read this passage because it articulates the 536 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 3: kind of amazing weirdness here when you really pay attention 537 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 3: to it. So Franklin's writing to somebody named William Brownrigg 538 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 3: in November seventeen seventy three, and he says, in these experiments, 539 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 3: one circumstance struck me with particular surprise. There was the sudden, wide, 540 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 3: and forcible spreading of a drop of oil on the 541 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 3: face of the water, which I do not know that 542 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,719 Speaker 3: anybody has hitherto considered. If a drop of oil is 543 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 3: put on a polished marble table or on a looking 544 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 3: glass that lies horizontally, the drop remains in place, spreading 545 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 3: very little. But when put on water, it spreads instantly 546 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 3: many feet around, becoming so thin as to produce the 547 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 3: prismatic colors for a considerable space, and beyond them so 548 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 3: much thinner as to be invisible except in its effect 549 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 3: of smoothing the waves. Now, as I said, we'll come 550 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 3: back to Benjamin Franklin in the next part of the series. 551 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 3: But while I don't know if he was the first 552 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 3: person to notice the way that oil spreads over the water, 553 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 3: I actually somewhat doubt that he definitely was not the 554 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 3: first person to notice these other strange properties, like the 555 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 3: prismatic colors that tend to shine out from oil spreading 556 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 3: over a pool of water, And he was certainly not 557 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 3: the first person to notice the apparent ability of oil 558 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 3: to somehow soothe the chop of threatening waters. 559 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is the thing that drew us into 560 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 2: this topic initially, because I know, for my part anyway, 561 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 2: I don't think i'd come across this before, this idea 562 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 2: of oil being used to calm storm waters, because I mean, 563 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 2: it just sounds so completely magical, and it will continue 564 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 2: to sound completely magical while also having a basis in 565 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 2: fact in science to at least a limited degree. So 566 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 2: the accounts that we have dealing with this idea, these 567 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 2: come from far after the time of ancient Babylon, one 568 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 2: of the earliest, if not the earliest. It seems to 569 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 2: go back to the writings of Aristotle. Aristotle lived three 570 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 2: eighty four through three twenty to BCE, and these a 571 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 2: lot of his writings are generally just attributed to three 572 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 2: point fifty BCE. So Aristotle brings this up in problems 573 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 2: or Problemata physica, asking why is it that the sea, 574 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 2: which is heavier than fresh water, is more transparent? Is 575 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 2: it because of its fattier composition? Now, oil poured on 576 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 2: the surface of water makes it more transparent, and the 577 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 2: sea having fat in it is naturally more transparent. Uh huh, okay, 578 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 2: several things. There's also a part in I was looking 579 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 2: up oil in various of these ancient writings, and I 580 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 2: noticed in meteorology Aristotle also points out that oil contains air. 581 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 2: So there's a lot of mixed information here. 582 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 3: Purely speculating here that this could be totally wrong. But 583 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 3: I wonder if he's tempted to think that because oil 584 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 3: floats on the top of water, therefore like air rises 585 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 3: like bubbles through the water. 586 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 2: M Yeah, that sounds likely. All right. I think we're 587 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 2: gonna come back to Aristotle, but we're gonna skip ahead 588 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 2: now to another favorite source on the show, and that is, 589 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,240 Speaker 2: of course Roman historian Plenty of the Elder, who lived 590 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 2: twenty three or twenty four CE through seventy nine CE. 591 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 2: I have to say, Plenty talks a lot about oils 592 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 2: in the natural history. Like if you just start searching 593 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 2: for searching up the word oil, you're gonna find him 594 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 2: mentioning all sorts of medicinal oils. Uh. There's also a 595 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,240 Speaker 2: section titled waters which serve as a substitute for oil, 596 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 2: concerning waters that emit light and heal wounds. So a 597 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:44,320 Speaker 2: lot in there for oil fans to consume and to 598 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 2: try to make sense of. He's in generally a big 599 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 2: fan of oils, and he busts this out in book two, 600 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 2: chapter one oh six. There's a whole info dump regarding 601 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,760 Speaker 2: wisdom concerning the water, and he says everything is soothed 602 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 2: by oil, and that this is the reason why divers 603 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,720 Speaker 2: send out small quantities of it from their mouths, because 604 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 2: it's smooth any part which is rough and transmits the 605 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 2: light to them. M okay. So I think this is 606 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 2: tying in with what we were talking about earlier with 607 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,359 Speaker 2: Aristotle as well. And I've seen this particular bit translated 608 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 2: as sprinkled from the mouth as well. So I believe 609 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 2: the scenario here is that Plenty is sharing something that 610 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 2: he has heard or read regarding free divers carrying some 611 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 2: small quantity of oil in their mouths during the dive 612 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 2: and spitting it out to make the surrounding water more 613 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 2: visible during the dive while they're you know, looking for 614 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 2: something like a molluskh Now, this is the quote I 615 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 2: read is from the Mayoff translation of Plenty, and he 616 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 2: notes in the notes for this that while this would 617 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,280 Speaker 2: be proven to be correct, the effect is greatly exaggerated 618 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 2: both here and elsewhere. So keep that in mind as 619 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 2: we're going here. We're dealing with, you know, second and 620 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 2: third hand accounts of these things that may have the 621 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 2: definitely seemed to have a certain basis in fact, but 622 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 2: also are greatly exaggerated in the retelling. 623 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 3: Okay, well, I imagine we'll return to the mechanics of this, 624 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 3: if possible, in the next episode. But do you have 625 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 3: any idea how exactly this would work that would make 626 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 3: the water more visible? 627 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 2: What's my understanding that what we're dealing with here is that, yeah, 628 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 2: the idea is that oil will sort of smooth out 629 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 2: the surface of troubled water, but that it will also 630 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 2: smooth things out underneath the water, and if you are 631 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,760 Speaker 2: free diving looking for again, you know, fish or shells 632 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 2: or what have you, that some small amount of oil 633 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 2: released into that water would make it clearer and easier 634 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:45,240 Speaker 2: to see these things and or allow light to filter 635 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 2: down more effectively. Again, we'll get into the actual science 636 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 2: of this, probably in the next episode, and we have 637 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 2: to keep in mind that again we're doing probably what 638 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,799 Speaker 2: the second or third hand information here. I'm guessing here 639 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 2: this is something that Plenty had had heard regarding some 640 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 2: free diving people. And even though he would have certainly 641 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 2: been familiar with ships and all, I don't remember in 642 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 2: reading anything that indicated that he himself would have any 643 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 2: firsthand experience with diving underneath the water. Now, another author 644 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,839 Speaker 2: who gets into some of this is Plutarch, who lived 645 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 2: forty six through one nineteen se He also references Aristotle 646 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 2: in Causes of Natural Phenomena, and, according to Heinrich Hunifus 647 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:34,240 Speaker 2: in Oil Untroubled Waters a historical survey, this is likely 648 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 2: referencing a lost portion of Aristotle's Problemata reads as follows, 649 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 2: this is from Plutarch, what is the reason for the 650 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 2: clearness and calm produced when the sea is sprinkled with oil. 651 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,359 Speaker 2: Is it, as Aristotle says, that the wind slipping over 652 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 2: the smoothness so caused makes no impression and raises no swell, 653 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 2: Or does this plausibly explain the external phenomena only they 654 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 2: say that when divers take oil into their mouths and 655 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 2: blow it out in the depths, they get illumination and 656 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 2: can see through the water. Surely it is impossible to 657 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 2: adduce slipping of the wind in the cause there. Consider then, 658 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 2: whether the oil does not, by reason of its density, 659 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 2: push and force aside the sea, which is earthy and irregular. Subsequently, 660 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 2: when it flows back to its former position and draws together, 661 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:28,359 Speaker 2: intermediate passages are left in it, which offer transparency and 662 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 2: clear visibility to the organs of sight. 663 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,760 Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting. So again, I wonder if I'm understanding 664 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,799 Speaker 3: Plutarch right here, But it sounds like maybe he's saying that, 665 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,400 Speaker 3: like when oil is spit out under the water, it 666 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,799 Speaker 3: kind of clears channels in the water. I wonder if 667 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:49,319 Speaker 3: that would work by attracting particles in the water that 668 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 3: would be making the water cloudy into the oil and 669 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 3: then dragging them away with it. As the oil rises. 670 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not sure. I couldn't find much information on 671 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,839 Speaker 2: this particular detail of the of the scenario. Maybe I'll 672 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,319 Speaker 2: find something for the next episode, but yeah, it's you'd 673 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 2: have to put ourselves in the like in the position 674 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,240 Speaker 2: of an ancient free diver who's you know, I assume, 675 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 2: not using any kind of covering for their eyes. I 676 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 2: did run across some mentions of these practices where they 677 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 2: talked more like they were putting the oil in their eyes, 678 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 2: which again I don't know how that's factoring into the 679 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 2: sort of telephone game of you know, second, third, and 680 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 2: fourth hand reporting on this during ancient times, in addition 681 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 2: to translation errors. All right, but in this we've touched 682 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 2: on this other big area, something that we're going to 683 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,920 Speaker 2: have a lot more to discuss in the next episode 684 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 2: as well, and that is, Hey, if you dump some 685 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 2: quantity of oil, and the quantity seems to vary tremendously, 686 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 2: if you dump that into a stormy sea, well that's 687 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 2: just going to smooth everything out, smooth sailing thanks to 688 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 2: the oil. 689 00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 3: Okay, what do we have any stories about how this works? 690 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 2: We do. We have a pretty good story here, and 691 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 2: it comes to us from the English monk Bead, who 692 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 2: lived somewhere around six seventy two or six seventy three 693 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 2: through seven thirty. 694 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 3: Five, often known as the Venerable Bead. It's good if 695 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,359 Speaker 3: you can get venerable attached to your name. 696 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,360 Speaker 2: Yes. So the year here that he's talking about is 697 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 2: six fifty one, and King Oswig sometimes it's spelled Oswig 698 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 2: of Northumbria sends out a priest to bring his bride 699 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 2: home from Kent, and one bishop Aiden blesses the priest 700 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 2: and gives him some holy oil and tells him when 701 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:39,760 Speaker 2: you set sail, you're gonna encounter some really stormy weather. 702 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,439 Speaker 2: There's gonna be some high winds, so remember to pour 703 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 2: this oil that I'm giving you into the sea, and 704 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,319 Speaker 2: that's gonna calm everything out. Huh. And this is later 705 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,879 Speaker 2: described as a flask. So I'm assuming we're talking about 706 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,399 Speaker 2: a magic potion quantity of oil here, rather than say 707 00:40:55,440 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 2: a barrel of oil. So Bead claimed that everything happened 708 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,759 Speaker 2: as the bishop said it would. When the storms came, 709 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,759 Speaker 2: the priest poured the flask of holy oil into the sea, 710 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 2: and the storm died down. And Bid insisted that the 711 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,360 Speaker 2: miracle was no mere fable that he had heard it 712 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 2: from reliable sources close to the matter, so you know, 713 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:17,959 Speaker 2: he was like, this works. This is not a tall tale, 714 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 2: this is reality. Also worth noting by the way that 715 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 2: Osweg or Oswig was said. It was said that he 716 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,920 Speaker 2: and his queen had been gifted multiple holy relics, including 717 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,360 Speaker 2: a cross with a key to it made from the 718 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,439 Speaker 2: chains of the apostles Peter and Paul. 719 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,319 Speaker 3: Okay, Well, as much as this does just sound like 720 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 3: a standard magical item legend, I think whether or not 721 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 3: the story is plausible actually maybe more a matter of 722 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 3: degree rather than just like it could happen or it couldn't. 723 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,800 Speaker 3: I don't know about using oil to stop a storm, 724 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:53,920 Speaker 3: but in the next episode we're going to end up 725 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:59,720 Speaker 3: exploring some surprising grains of truth in this kind of legend. 726 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you might be surprised too. It just what 727 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,560 Speaker 2: kind of legs this idea had concerning the idea that, yeah, 728 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 2: you might want to have some oil on hand in 729 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 2: case the water gets choppy. 730 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 3: So maybe we got to call it there for today, 731 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 3: but we'll be back next time to talk about pouring 732 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 3: oil on the seas. 733 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, this one was more in depth than I expected, 734 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,879 Speaker 2: and you never expect it, but Ben Franklin often does 735 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 2: show up. This is not the first episode where you 736 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,719 Speaker 2: don't expect Ben Franklin, but here he comes, sauntering up 737 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,439 Speaker 2: with his weird energy and strange ideas, becoming a part 738 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,080 Speaker 2: of the story of a particular invention or natural phenomena 739 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:37,719 Speaker 2: or what have you. 740 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:39,479 Speaker 3: So tune in next time. 741 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 2: In the meantime, if you would like to listen to 742 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,759 Speaker 2: other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, well you'll 743 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 2: find them on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Those are the core 744 00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:48,879 Speaker 2: episodes and the Stuff to Blow your Own podcast feed 745 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,759 Speaker 2: the listener mail on Monday. On Wednesday a short form 746 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,560 Speaker 2: artifact or monster effect. On on Fridays, we set aside 747 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,080 Speaker 2: most serious concerns to just talk about a weird film 748 00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 2: on Weird House Cinema. 749 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:02,160 Speaker 3: Huge thanks to our excellent an audio producer, JJ Posway. 750 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 751 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,840 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 752 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:08,919 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 753 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,319 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact stuff to Blow your 754 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:20,800 Speaker 3: Mind dot com. 755 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,840 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 756 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,759 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio, app, Apple podcasts, 757 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:44,000 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.