1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so 3 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Let's hear it for the man 4 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: of the hour, our super producer, Max Crochet Williams, Max. 5 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 2: The Pearler Williams. There we give the knit Master Williams. 6 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's use all the words we learned for this, 7 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: Max the knit. 8 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 2: The gauge, sock Darner, the froggy Williams. That's prood Frogging's cool, 9 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 2: not to be confused with we just. 10 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 3: Said the gauge people. Okay, we'll be the gauge for 11 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:05,320 Speaker 3: this one. 12 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: That is Noel Brown. They called me, they called me 13 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: Ben Bullen. And today, folks, we're embarking what is on 14 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: what is probably going to be a two part episode. Uh, 15 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: maybe we get into it this way. I mentioned crochet, 16 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: which is related to knitting, because I don't know if 17 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: I told you guys, my girlfriend recently got super duper 18 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: into Crocheane. 19 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 2: You know, there might be some knitting enthusiasts out there. 20 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: They'll be blasphemy. 21 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 3: Crocheting and knitting I have nothing to do with one another. Also, 22 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 3: that might not be true. 23 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 2: They might completely agree with your assessment there, Ben, but 24 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 2: I do know some folks that take these crafts incredible. 25 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: Seriously, so seriously, well they should. Yeah, Brandy makes well 26 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: you know, she is an artist, so she doesn't just 27 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: crochet doilies or stuff like that. She old not that 28 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: there's anything wrong with that. She also makes crochet characters 29 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: from games and from anime, from animal crossing and things 30 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: of that nature. Now, I'm not gonna tell you folks 31 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: to go buy her stuff, but we would love to 32 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: hear your stories about knitting, because very interested in it. 33 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 3: Give it to us, give us the linkage. 34 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 2: Oh no, no, tell for another day. Oh come on, 35 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 2: all right, I'll bug you about it later. My kiddo 36 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 2: has been on a bit of a knitting slash crocheting 37 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 2: journey doing something very similar, doing little characters and made 38 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 2: some stuff that they sell on their d pop and 39 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 2: it's it's a lot of fun. And also their little 40 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 2: sis is getting into it as well. Super super super 41 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 2: cool and very functional because, as we're going to get 42 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 2: into it allows you to do. 43 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 3: Things like repair your own socks, which I fully support. 44 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: I think you know this is my eagle scout, weird 45 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: survivalist stuff coming out. But historically in the United States 46 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: there was this gender divide on household skills, right, And 47 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: one of the things that I maintain is mission critical 48 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: is if you were dude, you need to know how 49 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: to sew. You need to know just a little bit 50 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: about that art of stringing and nodding stuff, so you 51 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: can like darn your socks, as we say, or you 52 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: can fix a duvet cover. 53 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: Or stitch up a wound. They're very related skills. Sorry, 54 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: I've been watching a lot of The Pit lately. I 55 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: got over my ick factor and boil boy do I 56 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 2: love that show. But if you have an aversion to slicing, dicing, 57 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 2: and blood, not for you, although I do have those things, 58 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 2: and I again kind of pushed through it because the 59 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 2: characters are just so incredible. Today's episode comes to us 60 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 2: by way of our brand new research associate Marie Yeah, 61 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 2: who absolutely wreckshop with this two part research brief, and 62 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 2: I'm just gonna go ahead and knock it out of 63 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: the way. The title that they headlined it with is 64 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 2: when Stitch and Bitch was more like Stitch and Snitch. 65 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 2: I had not heard Stitch and Bitch until recently. It 66 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: is kind of I guess this idea of like a 67 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 2: group sitting around and sewing and knitting and stitching while 68 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: also you know, commiserating about the state of affairs. 69 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's a new way of saying the traditional 70 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: like knitting circle, which was very common, or like you know, 71 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: you have a bunch of people get together and sew 72 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: up quilts from leftover, leftover fabric. It is still, by 73 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: the way, it is still technically better to stitch up 74 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 1: a wound. Don't be a dummy like me. 75 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 3: Uh did you knit up your wound with like wool? 76 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 2: I had to duct tape once you know what duct tape. 77 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: That's probably not the best one. But I do hear 78 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 2: super glue? 79 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: Is it? Preuper glue works if you have it, Yeah, 80 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 1: I keep it in. But anyway, let's okay, we got 81 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: to get to this. This is a phenomenal story. So 82 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: if you cast your memory back, fellow ridiculous historians, to 83 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: World Wars one and two, then you see a lot 84 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 1: of American society reassessing what they saw as the traditional 85 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: roles of a household. So if you're an American woman 86 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: back in the war periods, it was considered your patriotic 87 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: duty to do things like volunteer for the Red Cross, 88 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: uh to enter the workforce, which was a tremendous opportunity 89 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: that had not been provided in the past. And then 90 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: you had to keep on top of rationing and you know, 91 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: your ration cards grow a victory garden and knitting because 92 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: you couldn't just go to Woolworst and buy stuff who 93 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: could afford it at the time. 94 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 2: Also turns out wool Worst does not just sell woolen 95 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 2: woolen goods. This is much more of a catch all 96 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 2: kind of store. I'm joking that wasn't even funny, but 97 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 2: it's true. Ben Rosie the Riveter was a huge campaign 98 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 2: aimed at getting you know, women to enter the workforce. 99 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 2: I will say, I think this is obvious everybody. It 100 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 2: is kind of one of those things where it was 101 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 2: sort of by necessity. It wasn't like this egalitarian moment 102 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 2: of like you know, wilingness, where all of a sudden 103 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 2: men were like, you know what, women should be able 104 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 2: to occupy the same jobs as us. No, all the 105 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 2: men were just off at war and those jobs needed filling. 106 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So the powers that be said, we have 107 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: to keep our factories open, correct to fight the Nazis 108 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: and so on. But that did fundamentally change us society. 109 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:58,359 Speaker 1: We also know this is a story that might be 110 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: familiar to some of us. Well, no, there's this long 111 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: tradition of making do with what you have, repairing things 112 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: rather than replacing things. So for quite a long time, 113 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: millions of women, especially in the United States and the 114 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: world overall. We're knitting, but they weren't knitting recreationally. It 115 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: was not a S and B hangout necessarily, it was 116 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: an economic necessity to keep your families clothing in good repair. 117 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: It reminds me of the Great Depression, horrible name, the 118 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: period of time when yeah, flower MANU, I can't let 119 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: it go. Flower manufacturers realized that less well to do 120 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: families were taking sacks of flower and making these amazing 121 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: dresses for their kids from them, and so they started 122 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: providing more aesthetic, pleasing patterns. We know that during war, 123 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: millions of women in the United States and abroad were 124 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: also knitting stuff for the troops. Like you would volunteer 125 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: for the Red Cross, as we said, but you would 126 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: also maybe volunteer to make warm clothing and socks and 127 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: scarves and gloves for soldiers. You would even knit bandages. 128 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 2: I want to say, similar with Gingham, right, the Gingham craze, 129 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 2: where that was originally used as more of a household fabric, 130 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: you know, for tablecloths and curtains and things like that, 131 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 2: but then it became one of those we got a 132 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 2: lot of the stuff around, let's make it into dresses, 133 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 2: and then kind of became a little bit chic in 134 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 2: its own in its own right. 135 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh, I like that. I like that citation there too. Man, 136 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: We okay, we know this. It became for a time 137 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: during during the war periods, it became pretty common to 138 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 1: see women knitting at all times constantly. Like people blame 139 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 1: Pokemon Go. When that first came out, you would see 140 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: folks maybe on a lunch break from their factory job 141 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: and they'd be knitting. Or you might see somebody knitting 142 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 1: while they're literally walking to or from a destination. But 143 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: as it turns out, and we can't thank our research 144 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: associate Maria enough for this, some of those people knitting 145 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: during the war years weren't just doing altruistic things to 146 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: make sure people had scarves or to make sure people 147 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: didn't have to buy a new set of socks. They 148 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: were knitting as a form of espionage. 149 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 2: Whoa right, true man, I did know about this, but 150 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 2: I still have to drop the woe because it's wild. 151 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 2: There's so much stuff in these episodes that absolutely took 152 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 2: me by surprise. We're going to get into the idea 153 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 2: of binary code and secret messages and all of this 154 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 2: kind of stuff, not to mention spying for the enemy. 155 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 2: So one thing that's I think important when it comes 156 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 2: to spying is having a front that on its surface 157 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 2: can be seen as unthreatening and innocuous and something that 158 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 2: would typically be overlooked. 159 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 3: And a ladies knitting group is one. 160 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: Of those things because of misogyny exactly, but also it 161 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: reminds me of the monopoly board games that were used 162 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: to help people escape pow camps. Yeah, you nailed it there. 163 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: Some spies use their knowledge of knitting and the fact 164 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: that knitting was seen as so ubiquitous and innocuous that 165 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 1: they were able to sneak hidden messages encoded in their artwork. 166 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: Sometimes this was a form of what we call steganography, 167 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: which is weaving a message physically into an ordinary object 168 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: like a hair tie or. 169 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 2: A scarf, or that perhaps stitched into the lining of 170 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 2: a cod Things like that. Yeah, Yeah, that's something we've 171 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 2: talked about. 172 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. 173 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: And sometimes also it would be a great cover because 174 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: you could be a spy carrying a message, but to 175 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: enemy forces, you're just an average person carrying a knitting 176 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: bag with yarn and needles inside. And as Maria says, 177 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: heavens no nothing else at all. 178 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 2: Honestly here, So let's talk about how wartime spies used 179 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 2: knitting to get the job done. This cover that we're 180 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 2: talking about, it couldn't have happened if not for the 181 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 2: absolute boom in popularity of at home knitting kits or 182 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 2: what have you. Women answered the call to knit your bit, 183 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 2: which was a slogan that originated as a World War 184 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 2: One era American Red Cross campaign doing things like you 185 00:11:54,360 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, repairing the linings of helmets, knitting fingerless gloves 186 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 2: for the troops, repairing things stuff like that. 187 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 3: Knit your bit. 188 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 2: So take this thing you already know how to do, 189 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 2: and use it in more time to further you know, 190 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 2: the mission of the troops. 191 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 1: By the way, I love the wartime slang, the wartime 192 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: initiatives that were all sort of propagandistic, even you know, 193 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 1: even for the good guys there was stuff like keep mum, 194 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: she's not so dumb, that said, don't talk to don't 195 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: talk loosely because you underestimate women, they might be spies 196 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 1: or careless talk costs lives. 197 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 3: Loose lips sink chips. 198 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: Loose slips sink ships. That's a banger, Keep calm and 199 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: carry on. Of course that was the British. 200 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 2: That was just the overarching attitude of the Brits right 201 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 2: right life philosophy. 202 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: Even last one dig for victory, which is when you 203 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 1: were supposed to cultivate a garden. 204 00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 2: So the victory, Yeah, the aforementioned victory gardens. So we're 205 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,439 Speaker 2: seeing a golden age of knitting in the nineteen forties 206 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 2: and a lot of that had to do with this 207 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 2: whole another slogan, make do and mend and of course 208 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 2: the previously mentioned knit your bit mentality that swept the country. 209 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 2: So on November twenty fourth of nineteen forty one, people 210 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 2: were seeing the new issue of Life magazine coming out, 211 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 2: displaying a full size photo of a woman knitting, with 212 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 2: one short headline how to knit. Included you would find 213 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 2: the basic instructions for knitting, and it came with a pattern, 214 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 2: not for some sort of doily or some sort of 215 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 2: you know dress for a military vest. 216 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: Hmm, yeah, right, it's not it's not what you would 217 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: expect from previous iterations or patterns, but it also is 218 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: completely in line with the skill set of knitting. You 219 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: also saw the big to dos or prominent people of 220 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: the day endorsing knitting. Eleanor Roosevelt, who was kind of 221 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: the Kardashian of the age, right the first Lady of 222 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: the United States at the time. Her PR team often 223 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: made sure to photograph her knitting, and she had a 224 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: knitting tea party that kicked off the World War Two 225 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: knitting effort. 226 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 2: Knit for Defense over there at the super humble Waldorf 227 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 2: Astoria in New York City. That happened in September of 228 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 2: nineteen forty one. Eleanor Roosevelt not to be confused with 229 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 2: Eleanor Rigby, who was darning her socks in the night. 230 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 3: When there's nobody there. 231 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 2: This Eleanor became known as the first knitter of the land, 232 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 2: and New York Times reported on January twenty second, nineteen 233 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 2: forty two, a helmet for a flying cadet made by 234 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 2: some devoted woman in a small town far from the 235 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 2: war is sure to arouse interest in the navy or 236 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 2: air force among the friends of the women doing the knitting, 237 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 2: and she herself feels that she is an active part 238 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 2: in the vast conflict. She is not useless, although she 239 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 2: can do nothing else to help win the war. No, 240 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 2: that's not good copying like that. It was it was 241 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 2: doing so, it was going so, well. 242 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll find the journalist so and then we see 243 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: that again, this is ubiquitous. The eleanor Rigby reference is 244 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: great because it shows us how fundamental knitting and darning became, right, 245 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: how abiquitous in this time in society. Later, it's June eighteenth, 246 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: nineteen forty five, so just you know, like three years later, 247 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: General Dwight Eisenhower calls upon the American Cross and Volunteer 248 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: knitting efforts, referring to them as the friendly hand of 249 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: this nation, reaching across the sea to sustain it's fighting men, 250 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: fighting men. Right, But that's okay, So this is a 251 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: good idea. It's a group effort. Everybody get together to 252 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: fight the baddies. This also means that knitting in wartime 253 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: becomes not a hobby, it becomes a patriotic duty, and 254 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: that makes it ubiquitous. That makes it so commonplace that 255 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: if you are a secret agent, you can blend right 256 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: in as you do your dirty deeds of trade craft. 257 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, done dirt cheap indeed, And before anyone, you know, 258 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: gets on our case about you know, looking at the 259 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 2: pass through a modern lens. Uh And so yeah, I 260 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 2: think it's a thing that you do. It's just a 261 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 2: thing that you do. I don't know that we have 262 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 2: to give a pass instantly. Just you know, some of 263 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 2: this stuff is a little problematic, but at the same time. 264 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 3: It's it was. It was progressive for the time for sure. 265 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: Sure it was regressive, progressive for the time, let's keep it. 266 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: But it was also very again condescending. You know, like, 267 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: look at these ladies working in a factory just like 268 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: a dude, and oh uh oh, I'm the high eluding 269 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: New York Times. Women, you can't do anything, but you're 270 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: not useless because you can knit. I would be so 271 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: irritated by the media of the day, you know. But 272 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: like you were saying, no, we've got to we've got 273 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:20,360 Speaker 1: to note some things that come up in our previous 274 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 1: explorations on the science and art of trade craft, which 275 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: is house spy spy in our sister show stuff they 276 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: don't want you to know. There's a great shout out 277 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: here that Maria gives us. 278 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 2: I love this one. It's such a good scene center. 279 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 2: I think people might be familiar with a Tale of 280 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 2: Two Cities, right, It was the best of times in 281 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 2: the worst of times, and a really important character in 282 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 2: that book was Defarge, a very powerful woman, but yes hidden, 283 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 2: hiding in plain sight and exercising her power in the shadows, 284 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 2: which is kind of by design. 285 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: Right, So let's set the stage. Madame Defarge Tale of 286 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 1: Two Cities. She sits outside of her wine shop in Paris, 287 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,439 Speaker 1: and she knits a scarf. But for those who know 288 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 1: what to look for, there are messages in that scarf. 289 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 1: She is secretly stitching hidden names, creating, again with steganography, 290 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: not stenography, steganography a register of aristocrats and enemies that 291 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: are going to later be executed by the guillotine during 292 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: the French Revolution. And even though this is an excellent 293 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: fictional character, the use of coded knitting is real, and 294 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 1: we know that actual genuine spies in the real world, 295 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: people like Elizabeth Betley and Phyllis Lettour, did indeed take 296 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 1: a page from Madame Defarge and conceal messages in their 297 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: knitting projects. 298 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's part of the resistance. So let's just talk. 299 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 2: A little bit about the the procedural aspects of knitting 300 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 2: and involves interconnecting sliding loops of yarn used to create 301 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 2: stitches that form a textile aka piece of fabric made 302 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 2: from interwoven pieces of yarn or thread or what have you. 303 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 2: There are two very important fundamental kinds of stitches that 304 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 2: go into this craft. 305 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, You've got the knit stitches k and it stitches, 306 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: and they resemble the letter V in that fabric. And 307 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 1: then you've got the pearl stitches puurl that are a 308 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: reverse knit stitch. Those are the things that look like 309 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: bumps in the fabric. So you got your v's in 310 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: your bumps one hundred percent. And it turns out that 311 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,719 Speaker 1: you can use those v's and bumps as ways of 312 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: incorporating hidden messages through the use of what I mentioned earlier, 313 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: something called binary code. Think about Morse code. Very simple 314 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: building blocks. 315 00:19:57,880 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 2: Of these types of code, whether it be ones and 316 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 2: z zos or dots and dashes, right. 317 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. 318 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: And this can sound more complex than maybe it actually was. 319 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: In practice. You could use, to your point in lil 320 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: stitches as kind of a data marker. So you purl 321 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 1: a stitch right, you make a bump, and that represents 322 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 1: the arrival of a certain person. But you drop a stitch, 323 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: creating a hole in your fabric, and that may represent 324 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: the person leaving. So you really it depends on what 325 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: kind of signals you want to send and what the 326 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 1: complexity or sophistication of those signals would be. So for example, 327 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 1: in this in this hypothetical scenario, the person who is 328 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: trying to recover this information already knows, you know, like 329 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: Lord Batten von ham On Sandwich is the person they're 330 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: looking for to arrive or depart. So now if you 331 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 1: are our knitting spy, you don't have to figure out 332 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: a way to use bumps and v's to spell out 333 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: the name Lord Matton Mountain ham On Sandwich. You just 334 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 1: have to say the person we're looking for has arrived, 335 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: the person we're looking for is gone. 336 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 2: It's brilliant for sure, and I mean and this type 337 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 2: of code is still very much in use today. Ones 338 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 2: and zeros used to encode things like images in digital 339 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 2: form JPEGs, our audio in digital form MP three's. If 340 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,120 Speaker 2: you stripped it down to their fundamental layers, you're going 341 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 2: to see series of binary code used to encode things 342 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 2: from the analog world into digital form. So almost all 343 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,360 Speaker 2: modern digital computer data interactions depend on binary code. So 344 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 2: binary is very much the same as knitting. These combinations 345 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 2: of ones and zeros or v's and bumps or dots 346 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 2: and dashes. In hand knitting, knit one pearl one represented 347 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 2: as K one P one is a fundamental technique for 348 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 2: the craft, and it is also inherently a binary system 349 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 2: in machine based knitting that's used you know, to mass 350 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 2: mass produce things. Patterns are in fact defined by ones 351 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 2: and zeros or yes no logic, which are very much 352 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 2: the same exact building blocks that would go into the 353 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 2: fundamentals of computing. 354 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: And research Associate Maria, please don't We're not the brightest 355 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: crayons in the box, but don't think your your joke escaped. 356 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: I noticed there you have this titled as K one 357 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: P three, which is a common knitting instruction, So our 358 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: research associated is sending us a code and a puzzle 359 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah yeah, this, I mean I love this stuff. Man. 360 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 1: This lends itself naturally to hiding messages In things like 361 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: Morse code, the system of dots and dashes, you can 362 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: use knit and pearl stitch combinations to spell out a 363 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: hidden message within something as simple as a hairtie. Your 364 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: pearl stitch can be a dot, and then three consecutive 365 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: pearl stitches could represent a dash. So if you needed 366 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: to actually spell out the name of Lord montbatten ham 367 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:34,199 Speaker 1: On von ham On Sandwich, then you could do it 368 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: by employing Morse code via fabric. There were also things 369 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: we could call cousins of this tactic knoed yarn or 370 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: specific yarn color changes knitted into a fabric. So then 371 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: instead of having to have a bunch of pearls and 372 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 1: v's or bumps and v's, you could just change a 373 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: specific part of the fabric color or the thread or 374 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: the yard. That could also very efficiently provide the signals 375 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: you needed. 376 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit about knotted threads in 377 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 2: this instance, spies with hide messages by tying little knots 378 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 2: into strands of yarn, with each knot placement representing a 379 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 2: unique code. So the knotted thread could be an espionage 380 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 2: tool in its own right, but it could also be 381 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 2: cast onto knitting needles right and turned into a knitting 382 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 2: project carried out by a secret agent in a knitting bag. 383 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 3: So for the knotted. 384 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 2: Message to be read, the receiver would also have to 385 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 2: first know how to unravel the scar which is almost 386 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 2: like what do they call that, like a sifer, not 387 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 2: a cipher, But there's like the key that you need in. 388 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: Order to trek a one time pad. 389 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 3: So I don't know something like that. 390 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 2: I guess I'm just thinking about the you know, when 391 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,719 Speaker 2: we're talking about things like the famous Enigma computer system 392 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 2: that was I believe Alan Turning had something to do 393 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 2: with there. You know, there is like a sort of 394 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 2: there's a name, God damn it, what is the name 395 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 2: where you in order to like have it's like a specific. 396 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: It's a one time pad, right, the way number stations 397 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: work today, you have to have the cryptographic key. 398 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 2: Cryptographic key, I think is the term that I was 399 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 2: poorly digging for, but it's something along those lines. You 400 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 2: kind of have to in order to even interpret the 401 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 2: thing kind of have to have a key. And that 402 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 2: is sort of what this is. The ability to unravel 403 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 2: that scarf and to know what you're looking for and. 404 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 4: To jump in real quick Noel as your reference. Turing, 405 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 4: the one of the greatest wartime achievements ever done is 406 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 4: he cracked the Enigma exactly considered impossible to do, which 407 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 4: and I think it was one of these things too, 408 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 4: where they cracked it and then they were able to 409 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 4: keep it under wraps that they cracked it right. 410 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:58,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, by hiding, by feeding, like what's the word phony 411 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 2: intel to the end. 412 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,959 Speaker 1: One hundred percent, which is why people think carrots are 413 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,439 Speaker 1: still good for your eyesight. It's not untrue, but it 414 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: was a way to cover up the early use of radar. 415 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 4: Was that actually part of the Enigma code? Or is 416 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 4: those just parallel the same time. 417 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:15,640 Speaker 3: It was parallel. 418 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 1: I'm just talking about the the great game of deception there. 419 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: But we do have to shout out whenever we talk 420 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: about the legendary Alan Turing. Two things you need to 421 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: know about him is that this guy was so brilliant. 422 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: We don't know whether anybody else could have figured out Enigma. 423 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: He had those moments of revelation, you know, they're almost prophetic. 424 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: And then secondly, most importantly, I would say he did 425 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 1: later get betrayed by his own country due to his 426 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: sexual orientation. 427 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,479 Speaker 2: Oh for sure, we've done an episode on this very topic. 428 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 2: We had to we know, certainly certainly did. 429 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,360 Speaker 4: We did an episode about We did a two part 430 00:26:55,520 --> 00:27:00,640 Speaker 4: series about scientists who are persecuted for being despite being 431 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,679 Speaker 4: completely correct and turning. Got an episode there you go. 432 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 1: Oh that's right. Yeah, yeah, and then we also. 433 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 4: Get pardoned posthumously by Queen Elizabeth. 434 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 3: Oh great. 435 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 4: Unfortunately Queen Elizabeth the second was also the Queen when. 436 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: When it all went down. Yeah, and okay, so we've 437 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: got we're to get to here. This is weirdly enough, 438 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 1: We're going to revisit this idea of nodded threads in 439 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: our second part of this series, and it's going to 440 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: take us away from World War two to the ancient past. 441 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 1: But for now, consider that a teaser. There was this 442 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: beautiful appeal to a lot of people in society of 443 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: espionage through knitting, because you're kind of doing something very 444 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: secret in very open places that you've got the ability 445 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,360 Speaker 1: to stick it to the man. Some knitters are knitting 446 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: in public. Some are going to specific almost like a 447 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: dead drop, you know, like walk by the park, see 448 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,199 Speaker 1: the lady knitting a scarf. If the scarf has a 449 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: yellow stripe, get out if the scarf has a blue stripe, 450 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: then proceed to the next location and you can meet 451 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: you know. Blah blah blah blah blah. 452 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 2: For sure, and a story that is often passed around, 453 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 2: you know, and as we know a lot of these stories, 454 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 2: there's some apocrypha involved. This one is told mainly the 455 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 2: same way, and it goes like this. During World War Two, 456 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 2: the Belgian resistance harnessed the power of knitting. Here is 457 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 2: the variance though some versions say one woman, some say 458 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 2: elderly woman, some say women. 459 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: Okay, So so it differs in that it may be 460 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: a solo or group activity, and if it's solo, the 461 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: descriptions of the woman in question differ a little. 462 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 3: Bit for sure. 463 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 2: So knitters would do a little train watching, a little 464 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 2: train spotting, standing by watching the trains pass and encoding 465 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 2: the movement of German troops and artillery into the fabric. 466 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 2: So dropping a stitch to your previous point been indicated 467 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 2: one type of train, perling a stitch indicated a different 468 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 2: type of train and their fabric, which was embedded with 469 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 2: this logistical information about the enemy would then be passed 470 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 2: along to intelligence officers who were given the tools they 471 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 2: needed to decode these messages. 472 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: Gentlemen, I am but a humble purveyor of scarves. I 473 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: travel often so that I'm laughing because I get picture 474 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: that being what are those crazy word to the wise 475 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: things that military folks told themselves in the day. They 476 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: were like, look, we need to round up anybody who's 477 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: selling scarves. 478 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 3: We need to do it now. Well, that's the problem, 479 00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 3: right or not? 480 00:29:58,440 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: Not? 481 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 2: The problem with the potential problem. This stuff only works 482 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 2: for as long as the enemy is not wise to 483 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 2: not necessarily the code, but just the medium. And once 484 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,959 Speaker 2: that gets, you know, out of the handbag, then all 485 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 2: bets are off. 486 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: I'm just imagining you, guys. I'm imagining this globe trotting 487 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: scarf salesperson who is going in and out of different 488 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: countries during wartime and never gets caught. There could be 489 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: one today that we don't know about. However, we know 490 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: that there are specific cases of legendary knitting spies. They 491 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: didn't necessarily just convey hidden messages in fabric. They could 492 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: also use their knitting tools to hide physical notes or documents. 493 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: And you know what, now that I think about it 494 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: as a last resort, just like hatpins, your knitting needles 495 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: could be used as weapons. 496 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and we're going to get into some specific 497 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 2: case of individuals who were experts at deploying this type 498 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 2: of tradecraft in the second part of this two part. 499 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: Series, so please tune in, folks, We're going to dive into, 500 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: as Noel said, some specific cases of legendary knitting spies 501 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 1: joined us later this week. In the meantime, big thanks 502 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: to our super producer, mister Max Williams. Big thanks to 503 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: our research associate Maria who else who else. 504 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 2: Who is well, Christian Rossiotis and native Jeff Code here 505 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 2: in spirit of course Alex Williams to composed this Bang and. 506 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: Bob, also doctor Rachel Big Spinach, Lance of course, a j. 507 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: Bahamas Jacobs, and a civil but chilly acknowledgement of Jonathan 508 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: Stricklands aka the Quist. 509 00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 2: Find how do you Do? Indeed a Kurt nod adopting 510 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 2: of the of the Camps. We'll see you next time, folks. 511 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 512 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.