WEBVTT - Amex v. Chase: Who Will Win the Battle for America’s Top Shoppers?

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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<v Speaker 2>Fall is in full swing in New York. The temperature

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<v Speaker 2>is dropping, the leaves are changing. But cast your mind

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<v Speaker 2>back with me for a minute to the dog days

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<v Speaker 2>of summer and one of its biggest sporting events at

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<v Speaker 2>the US Open. The adrenaline of New York just gets

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<v Speaker 2>going for some of the players. This year, Carlos Alcaraz

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<v Speaker 2>defeated his rival Yannick Sinner to claim the title of

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<v Speaker 2>men's singles champion. Arena Sablenka won her second straight title

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<v Speaker 2>on the women's side. Bloomberg's Amanda Male was there, but

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<v Speaker 2>not just for tennis.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a tennis competition, but it's also in some instances

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<v Speaker 3>in Olympics of luxury branding.

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<v Speaker 2>Amanda has been following a different kind of match, the

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<v Speaker 2>one between luxury credit cards. For years, American Express and

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<v Speaker 2>Chase have been vying to be the preferred premium credit

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<v Speaker 2>card of America's richest consumers, and at the US Open,

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<v Speaker 2>they were pulling out all the stops.

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<v Speaker 3>What both of the banks had done was sort of

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<v Speaker 3>set up a series of spaces, lounges, terraces, places that

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<v Speaker 3>you could grab refreshments, get a free hairtie and some

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<v Speaker 3>free sunscreen, and you were able to access different versions

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<v Speaker 3>of those spaces or different types of them, depending on

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<v Speaker 3>your status as a cardholder or like what kind of

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<v Speaker 3>card you held within the company's selection.

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<v Speaker 2>These card companies aren't just duking it out on the

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<v Speaker 2>sidelines of tennis matches. From exclusive fashion Week events to

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<v Speaker 2>bespoke airport lounges and partnerships with brands like Lululemon, Chase, MX,

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<v Speaker 2>and a handful of competitors are doing whatever it takes

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<v Speaker 2>to convince a specific group of high earners to do

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<v Speaker 2>their swiping with them.

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<v Speaker 3>If you look at the highest earning ten percent of households,

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<v Speaker 3>which is roughly households above two hundred and fifty thousand

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<v Speaker 3>dollars a year, they do half of all of the

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<v Speaker 3>consumer spending in the United States. It's a third of

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<v Speaker 3>American GDP. It is an enormous amount of day to

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<v Speaker 3>day spending.

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<v Speaker 2>These wealthy Americans have helped make premium credit cards the

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<v Speaker 2>fastest growing sector of the card industry, and they're paying

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<v Speaker 2>between four hundred and nearly nine hundred dollars a year

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<v Speaker 2>in annual fees to the credit card companies that offer them.

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<v Speaker 2>So what's the endgame here and who's winning. I'm Sarah Holder,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is the big take from Bloomberg News today

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<v Speaker 2>on the show Premium credit Cards Hit the Court, how

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<v Speaker 2>the leading credit card companies are pushing for an advantage

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<v Speaker 2>point with America's top spenders game set match. It tracks

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<v Speaker 2>that the people spending the most money in the American

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<v Speaker 2>economy are the people with the most money.

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<v Speaker 3>It's always been the case that the people do a

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<v Speaker 3>disproportionate amount of consumer spending because the more discretionary income

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<v Speaker 3>you have above and beyond your basic needs, the more

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<v Speaker 3>opportunities you have to do discretionary spending.

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<v Speaker 2>But Bloomberg BusinessWeek reporter Amanda Mall says, over the past

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<v Speaker 2>few decades, the gap between the consumer spending of the

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<v Speaker 2>wealthiest ten percent of Americans and the rest of the

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<v Speaker 2>country has been widening.

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<v Speaker 3>A big reason that consumer spending has gotten more disproportionate

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<v Speaker 3>is that as wages have stagnated, and more recently, as

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<v Speaker 3>like the job market has sort of frozen, so it's

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<v Speaker 3>really hard to leave or find a new job. What

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<v Speaker 3>has gone up in value is assets. If you own stocks,

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<v Speaker 3>if you own real estate, if you own anything that

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<v Speaker 3>appreciates you are probably feeling a lot more flush than

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<v Speaker 3>someone who makes like a similar amount of money to you,

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<v Speaker 3>perhaps but does not have those investments. So the people

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<v Speaker 3>who own assets, they are sort of running away with

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<v Speaker 3>the economy at this point.

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<v Speaker 2>And as those top earners become an increasingly powerful spending block,

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<v Speaker 2>credit card companies have been eager to woo them.

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<v Speaker 3>You want to be in business with this particular customer,

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<v Speaker 3>because the main way that credit cards make money, that

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<v Speaker 3>they generate revenue is through interchange fees.

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<v Speaker 2>Every time a customer swipes, the credit card company pockets

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<v Speaker 2>a percentage of the total transaction. The higher the transaction,

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<v Speaker 2>the more companies make.

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<v Speaker 3>So putting a lot of effort and capital and time

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<v Speaker 3>and energy into figuring out what those people want, where

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<v Speaker 3>they are, and how they can be motivated is really

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<v Speaker 3>really huge for brands.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the ways credit card companies have targeted those

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<v Speaker 2>big swipers is by offering a product they pitch as

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<v Speaker 2>a premium credit card, which offers extra perks in exchange

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<v Speaker 2>for an annual fee.

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<v Speaker 3>You saw really the first flurry of activity in premium

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<v Speaker 3>rewards credit cards in the nineteen eighties. That is, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>the Yuppi era, the greatest Good era of the final

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<v Speaker 3>guys in Armani suits. This is a time when like

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<v Speaker 3>this sort of consumer culture of the US was beginning

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<v Speaker 3>to shift to cater itself more to like very high earners.

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<v Speaker 3>And in nineteen eighty four, AMX came out with its

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<v Speaker 3>first Platinum card. It was at the time and invite

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<v Speaker 3>only credit card, so it was for a very small

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<v Speaker 3>percentage of very high earners that already had relationships with MX.

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<v Speaker 3>But over time, as credit cards became an even more

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<v Speaker 3>dominant form of payment within the US, as they became

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<v Speaker 3>more widely accepted and safer to use, American Express and

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<v Speaker 3>its competitors all sort of expanded those programs. The Platinum

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<v Speaker 3>card eventually became available for open application. It's still a

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<v Speaker 3>little hard to get. You have to be high income

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<v Speaker 3>and have very good credit. Those programs began to be

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<v Speaker 3>more widely pitched. As this disparity in discretionary spending grew.

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<v Speaker 2>So the number of elite spenders grew and the way

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<v Speaker 2>that credit card companies were marketing their premium offerings expanded

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<v Speaker 2>as well. Yes, for a long time, American Express dominated

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<v Speaker 2>the premium market.

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<v Speaker 3>American Express has been set up to service the needs

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<v Speaker 3>of high earners since like the eighteen nineties when they

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<v Speaker 3>came out with their first travelers checks. Other banks had

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<v Speaker 3>other premium credit cards, especially when banks started to partner

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<v Speaker 3>with airlines to help administer frequent flyer rewards programs, but

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<v Speaker 3>it was always sort of an article of faith that

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<v Speaker 3>this was like sort of American Express's market. And then

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<v Speaker 3>in the mid twenty tens, American Express went through some

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<v Speaker 3>changes with its business. It lost its partnership with Costco,

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<v Speaker 3>which accounted for fully like one in ten of American

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<v Speaker 3>Express cards in circulation in the United States at the time.

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<v Speaker 2>Costco executives felt amex's transaction fees were too high, so

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<v Speaker 2>when their credit card agreement was up for negotiation in

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<v Speaker 2>twenty fifteen, the two companies parted ways.

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<v Speaker 3>Visa gave them a better deal on interchange fees, so

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<v Speaker 3>they switched to Visa, and that, you know, created some

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<v Speaker 3>turmoil within AMX, and they decided that they were going

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<v Speaker 3>to double down and go all in on really pursuing

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<v Speaker 3>these affluent to wealthy customers that have always been their

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<v Speaker 3>sort of bread and butter. But before they could get

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<v Speaker 3>some new upgrades out to their Platinum card. In fallow

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<v Speaker 3>twenty sixteen, Chase came to market with the Chase Sapphire Reserve.

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<v Speaker 3>At the time it had a four hundred and fifty

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<v Speaker 3>dollars fee that has since been increased several times. It

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<v Speaker 3>is now seven ninety five. And Chase really saw Amex

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<v Speaker 3>as vulnerable at that time. They looked at this company

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<v Speaker 3>that was, you know, servicing a really desirable segment of

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<v Speaker 3>the public, and went, maybe we can do that better

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<v Speaker 3>if we have the right combination of amenities in fees

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<v Speaker 3>and perks and things that we can offer. And Chase

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<v Speaker 3>is a part of JP Morgan Chase. It is a

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<v Speaker 3>huge company that has like the financial resources to do

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<v Speaker 3>all kinds of things that like virtually no other financial

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<v Speaker 3>institution in the US as the resources to do.

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<v Speaker 2>The rollout costs two hundred to three hundred million dollars.

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<v Speaker 2>Chase was ready to play.

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<v Speaker 3>They said, well, why can't we beat AMEX at its

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<v Speaker 3>own game? And then AMX of course fired back.

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<v Speaker 2>In twenty seventeen, AMX tacked on a two hundred dollars

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<v Speaker 2>a year Uber credit and invitation to a pop up

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<v Speaker 2>restaurant in the Hampton's and five times points for flights

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<v Speaker 2>and hotel states.

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<v Speaker 3>And these cards get a refresh every three to five

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<v Speaker 3>years usually, so we've been in sort of a cycle

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<v Speaker 3>of refreshing and competition ever since.

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<v Speaker 2>And that brings us to today when MX and Chase

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<v Speaker 2>are still kind of jockeying for the top billing in

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<v Speaker 2>the premium credit card space. Walk me through the pitch

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<v Speaker 2>that these two credit card companies are making. How are

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<v Speaker 2>they getting people to sign up for the Chase Platinum

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<v Speaker 2>Reserve and not the other guy?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, it's funny, Like I do think it gets confusing,

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<v Speaker 3>Like I mean, you said yourself, the Chase Platinum Reserve,

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<v Speaker 3>Like it's the AMEX the platform, and it's the Chase

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<v Speaker 3>Sapphire Reserve.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, got it, Chase Sapphire Reserve, Amex Platinum card.

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<v Speaker 3>Credit card branding is very confusing because like the fundamental

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<v Speaker 3>problem of the credit card space is that, like the

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<v Speaker 3>day to day process of using a credit card is

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<v Speaker 3>exactly the same no matter what card you're using. You

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<v Speaker 3>take it out of your wallet, you tap it, you

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<v Speaker 3>swipe it. So credit card issuers need you to use

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<v Speaker 3>their card versus all of the other ones in your wallet,

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<v Speaker 3>and these companies, by their very nature have a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of consumer data, so they can see what their high

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<v Speaker 3>income clients do with their money and like what they prefer,

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<v Speaker 3>the kinds of brands they shop from their leisure activities.

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<v Speaker 2>So they end up offering a lot of similar perks.

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<v Speaker 3>Airport lounges, free upgrades to nicer seats on an airplane,

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<v Speaker 3>first DIBs on restaurant reservations, retail or brand purchase credits.

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<v Speaker 3>So spend money at Lululemon and quarterly you get a

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<v Speaker 3>seventy five dollars refund.

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<v Speaker 2>All these different cards, it's all these similar perks. How

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<v Speaker 2>is someone supposed to choose what card to get?

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<v Speaker 3>It's like very difficult because like not only do American

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<v Speaker 3>Express and Chase have their own sort of like mainline

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<v Speaker 3>premium cards, but they both co brand cards, as every

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<v Speaker 3>card company does with hotel chains, with airlines, like Chase

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<v Speaker 3>has its United cards, MX says it's Delta cards. It

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<v Speaker 3>sort of depends on like like what your actual spending

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<v Speaker 3>habits are and if you can sort of evaluate them dispassionately.

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<v Speaker 2>Charlotte Zolar is one card holder who's trying to make

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<v Speaker 2>that calculus for herself.

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<v Speaker 1>Right now, I feel like I'm getting my money's worth,

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<v Speaker 1>and at the same time, I feel like I am

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<v Speaker 1>working to make that happen. I'm now tracking to make

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<v Speaker 1>sure I use all of my perks.

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<v Speaker 2>Charlotte first signed up for an MX Platinum card in

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty one. She was starting to make more money

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<v Speaker 2>and she wanted to go out to eat at nicer

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<v Speaker 2>restaurants travel better. But last year, Charlotte decided to give

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<v Speaker 2>the Chase Sapphire Reserve a try.

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<v Speaker 1>MX's lounges have gone downhill significantly. The perks of the

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<v Speaker 1>hotel program have kept me there, but the points also

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<v Speaker 1>have don't stack up as well as Chases.

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<v Speaker 2>Charlotte is now weighing whether she should keep paying for

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<v Speaker 2>both cards, which cost her more than twelve hundred a

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<v Speaker 2>year combined, or commit to just one.

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<v Speaker 1>It makes me feel a little bit silly, honestly paying

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<v Speaker 1>for both. I've gotten into a frustrating place because I

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<v Speaker 1>like how the Venn diagram of perks shifts into cocentric

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<v Speaker 1>circles when I have both cards.

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<v Speaker 2>Charlotte's dilemma speaks to a bigger issue for these credit

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<v Speaker 2>card companies, as more of them offer premium cards with

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<v Speaker 2>similar perks. It's getting harder and more expensive to differentiate themselves.

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<v Speaker 2>That's after the break. American Express and Chase have slightly

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<v Speaker 2>different motives when it comes to recruiting high income customers.

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<v Speaker 2>MX's business is based around finding and keeping premium card holders,

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<v Speaker 2>and the company says it has a ninety eight percent

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<v Speaker 2>retention rate. Chase wants those same premium card holders, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's also hoping to convert them into JP Morgan banking clients.

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<v Speaker 2>And nearly a decade after these credit card companies started competing,

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<v Speaker 2>BusinessWeek reporter Amanda Mole has been trying to figure out

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<v Speaker 2>whether their strategies have been paying off.

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<v Speaker 3>Chase confirmed to me that, like the Sapphire Reserve, is

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<v Speaker 3>profitable unto itself, profitable even if cardholders don't go into

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<v Speaker 3>any of their other financial services offerings, even if they

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<v Speaker 3>don't take out a mortgage with Chase, even if they

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<v Speaker 3>don't do wealth management with Chase, And like in general,

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<v Speaker 3>AMEX really only offers premium cards. They don't really do

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<v Speaker 3>much of a business in lower credit quality, lower income

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<v Speaker 3>client But like they're a very profitable company, there is

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<v Speaker 3>a real business case for spending all of this money

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<v Speaker 3>and all of this time and investing all of this

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<v Speaker 3>capital in attracting these consumers because they do such a

0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:15.240
<v Speaker 3>disproportionate amount of spending in the US. Like it nets out,

0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:17.040
<v Speaker 3>the ROI is good, but what.

0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:20.640
<v Speaker 2>Works in the US hasn't translated to other parts of

0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:21.080
<v Speaker 2>the world.

0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:23.720
<v Speaker 3>Part of what makes the math on this work for

0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:26.920
<v Speaker 3>card issuers is that in the United States there is

0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:29.920
<v Speaker 3>not any cap on interchange fees. You don't get a

0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:33.240
<v Speaker 3>lot of these cards in Europe because Europe regulates how

0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:37.280
<v Speaker 3>large of a percentage of each transaction that card companies

0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:40.280
<v Speaker 3>can take. America caps that for debit cards, but not

0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:44.200
<v Speaker 3>for credit cards. So the premium cards, even within the

0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:47.600
<v Speaker 3>same issuer, they command a higher interchange fee. It can

0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.720
<v Speaker 3>get up to like three percent to five percent, depending

0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:52.560
<v Speaker 3>on what card you're looking at and what type of

0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:56.800
<v Speaker 3>transaction it is in the size. So it's these transactions

0:13:56.840 --> 0:14:00.520
<v Speaker 3>that are sort of underwriting these benefits. If you cap

0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:02.880
<v Speaker 3>them as most other markets do, like the math doesn't

0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:03.600
<v Speaker 3>work out as well.

0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:07.520
<v Speaker 2>MX recently announced that its Platinum Cards annual fee would

0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:10.360
<v Speaker 2>go up two hundred dollars a year to eight hundred

0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:14.280
<v Speaker 2>and ninety five dollars, and the Chase Sapphire Reserves fee

0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:16.440
<v Speaker 2>just went up two hundred and forty five a year

0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:20.080
<v Speaker 2>to seven hundred and ninety five dollars. Part of the

0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:23.320
<v Speaker 2>reason for the fee hikes, Amanda says, is this fear

0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:26.080
<v Speaker 2>that the US could begin capping fees.

0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:30.320
<v Speaker 3>I think banks have been nervous for years that there

0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:33.880
<v Speaker 3>is going to be regulatory action on interchange fees in

0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:36.000
<v Speaker 3>the US, and there has been a lot of threat

0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:38.600
<v Speaker 3>that regulatory bodies are going to sort of like come

0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:41.560
<v Speaker 3>in and reduce the amount that these cards can charge.

0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:44.560
<v Speaker 3>The odds of that happening during like a Trump administration

0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:48.360
<v Speaker 3>are I think somewhat muted. But like banks look at

0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:50.640
<v Speaker 3>this as sort of a long term project.

0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.840
<v Speaker 2>That's really interesting. So if they have to charge less

0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:57.200
<v Speaker 2>per transaction at a grocery store or a corner store,

0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.680
<v Speaker 2>they're going to make up that money by charging these

0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:03.600
<v Speaker 2>elite spenders more each year.

0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:07.080
<v Speaker 3>That's part of it, definitely is the anticipation that you

0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:09.880
<v Speaker 3>need to train cardholders to expect a highee, because you

0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.000
<v Speaker 3>may need one in order to make the card business

0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:15.080
<v Speaker 3>solvent in the future at some point. But then there's

0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:17.960
<v Speaker 3>also I think a desire to like thin the herd

0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:19.840
<v Speaker 3>a little bit. I heard this from a few people

0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:23.080
<v Speaker 3>within the industry. Banks who are providing all these perks

0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:25.800
<v Speaker 3>wants you to pick. They don't want you to have

0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:28.880
<v Speaker 3>both cards and sort of like gain max value out

0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:30.400
<v Speaker 3>of those cards and then move on to the next

0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:33.640
<v Speaker 3>card and extract value from that. They want you to say, Okay,

0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:35.320
<v Speaker 3>if it's going to cost me a thousand dollars, I'm

0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:37.880
<v Speaker 3>just going to get the platinum or the Sapphire reserve

0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.120
<v Speaker 3>and be done with it. Because this is it's too much,

0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:42.080
<v Speaker 3>it's too annoying.

0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:47.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm wondering whether these cards actually make economic sense for

0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:51.400
<v Speaker 2>most consumers. Are they getting their money's worth out of

0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:54.040
<v Speaker 2>these perks If you're paying basically one thousand dollars a

0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:55.400
<v Speaker 2>year for a credit card.

0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:57.360
<v Speaker 3>Well, I think for most consumers they don't make sense.

0:15:57.400 --> 0:15:59.600
<v Speaker 3>And I think that the banks themselves would tell you

0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:01.560
<v Speaker 3>that this is like not a card for everybody. They

0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:04.960
<v Speaker 3>want like a particular psychograph of consumer to sign up

0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:05.560
<v Speaker 3>for these cards.

0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:09.960
<v Speaker 2>For these particular kinds of customers, paying for a premium

0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:13.840
<v Speaker 2>can be worth it, despite the cost or because of it.

0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:16.480
<v Speaker 3>These cards are absolutely status symbols. There's a reason that

0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:18.880
<v Speaker 3>they're all made of metal. Now they have a nice

0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:20.720
<v Speaker 3>like plunk when you put them down on a table

0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:24.280
<v Speaker 3>in a restaurant. It has always been true that charging

0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:26.920
<v Speaker 3>more for something, if it's the right type of something,

0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:30.560
<v Speaker 3>if you've communicated about it correctly to your customer, charging

0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:33.160
<v Speaker 3>more for something can make it itself more valuable. The

0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:38.760
<v Speaker 3>US open sponsorship, the airport lounges, partnerships with like luxury

0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.960
<v Speaker 3>hotels and getting you into first class and an airplane.

0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:45.240
<v Speaker 3>That is all designed not just to woo customers, but

0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:48.800
<v Speaker 3>to also burnish the reputation of these cards as luxury

0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:49.600
<v Speaker 3>goods themselves.

0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:55.560
<v Speaker 2>So in the premium credit card matchup, who's winning, Amanda

0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:59.520
<v Speaker 2>says figuring that out is not as straightforward as tallying

0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:04.000
<v Speaker 2>up points. Neither company discloses figures on how many premium

0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:05.360
<v Speaker 2>card holders they've enrolled.

0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:08.320
<v Speaker 3>There has been some math done out there that among

0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:12.600
<v Speaker 3>American Expresses Delta cards it seems like there is about

0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:16.159
<v Speaker 3>six to eight million holders of those cards, if you

0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:18.679
<v Speaker 3>know the co branded card is bringing in that many people.

0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.480
<v Speaker 3>Then across the lineup there is the mainline platinum, and

0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:25.800
<v Speaker 3>then it chased, there is the preferred preferred business, and

0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:29.119
<v Speaker 3>American Express also does a platinum business like it is

0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:35.040
<v Speaker 3>like millions and millions of people this summer. When Chase

0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:38.800
<v Speaker 3>launched their refresh of the Chase Sapphire Reserve card, there

0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:41.520
<v Speaker 3>was like a real sense of like, oh, like Chase

0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:45.240
<v Speaker 3>is very very serious. Chase is maybe like making a

0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:47.040
<v Speaker 3>real dent in this. And Chase told me that they

0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:50.960
<v Speaker 3>believe that they are winning this war for America's wealthy consumers.

0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:54.640
<v Speaker 3>But the Amex launch in September that came a few

0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:58.080
<v Speaker 3>months after the Chase relaunch has been received like really

0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:00.840
<v Speaker 3>really well. They have such a long history with this.

0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:04.280
<v Speaker 3>They just have a real head start in a lot

0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:06.679
<v Speaker 3>of the categories that make a real difference to this

0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:11.240
<v Speaker 3>type of shopper. So Chase is investing an enormous amount

0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:13.680
<v Speaker 3>of capital in catching up. But I think they're still

0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:14.200
<v Speaker 3>catching up.

0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:18.000
<v Speaker 2>They're both bringing their metal credit cards to the knife fight.

0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:19.480
<v Speaker 2>We'll see how it ends.

0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:21.959
<v Speaker 3>Thanks so much, Amanda, of course, thank you.

0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:30.919
<v Speaker 2>This is the Big Take from Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah Holder.

0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:34.159
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0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:37.800
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