WEBVTT - Paper Trail 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:05.000 I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. 0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:07.960 I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:09.559 writing about true crime. 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.800 And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:16.400 worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:19.799 Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:21.720 compelling true crimes. 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:24.239 And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:26.040 new insights to old mysteries. 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:31.639 Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.360 cases through a twenty first century lens. 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.760 Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:39.800 This is Buried Bones. 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:03.480 Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you. 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:05.720 I'm doing great. How about you? 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:08.440 I'm doing good. What's been going on with you? 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:10.560 Well, I've been watching a lot of true crime? 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:11.640 Oh good guy. 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:15.080 I probably need another project, you know. I mean, the 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:17.319 book has been out, Listener's all val has been out, 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:20.039 and the book tour stuff is over, and I know 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:23.600 you have endless book tours. I do not, so now 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:27.040 I'm you know, I've been writing my first mystery thriller. 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:31.400 I've been doing different things, but I have an extraordinary 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:34.200 amount of time to watch true crime, and I know 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:37.240 this is not something that you really do, right, No. 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:37.640 No, I don't. 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:38.479 It's a hard note. 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:42.720 Yeah, I'm obviously very well planted in the true crime space. 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:45.560 I don't consume the content, rarely consume the content. 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:48.800 Well, I had a question. So I've mentioned this course before. 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:51.720 I teach a true crime podcast course at the University 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:54.600 of Texas. It's very popular. I have I think probably 0:01:54.600 --> 0:01:57.280 about two hundred and thirty students each semester. You know, 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:00.280 we talk about cases that are meaningful to them, that 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:03.440 are meaningful to me. There is a generational divide for 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:07.680 sure about the cases that my students, who are somewhere 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:10.720 between eighteen and twenty two, what they think are sort 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:15.040 of these groundbreaking everybody knows everything about them, binge worthy 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:19.640 type of crimes. And then my generation. So I want 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:22.960 to ask you about what you feel like from your generation, 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:27.560 you know, growing up, what was that case that really 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:31.960 sort of made you either think about, you know, criminal 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:35.400 investigation or think about something that was you had never 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:37.200 heard of before. And I'd love to make a joke 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:39.760 about maybe Charles Manson, but I'm not going to because 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:42.240 I think it's probably going to be a little more 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:44.160 modern than that. Maybe not, though I don't know. 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:46.720 Now, i'd say, you know, if you're talking about you know, 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:49.560 when I was growing up, I did not pay attention 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:53.400 to any of the crime cases out there, you know. 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:56.280 I think, of course, you know, the story of me 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:00.400 glomming on to getting into the field I got into 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:04.480 was because of a TV show, Quincy, But I'm not remembering, 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:07.680 you know, paying attention to the newspaper headlines or listening 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:12.440 to the radio. I would say the first true crime 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:19.920 case that I really dug into was David Carpenter. He 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:23.200 was the trail side killer out there on Mount tamil Pious. 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:27.840 And I remember I had already started working for the 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:31.440 Sheriff's office, but as a toxicologist, and I'm reading this 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:36.120 book about the serial killer, and it's in the Bay Area, 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:40.480 and he is going to restaurants in places where I 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:42.680 knew where they were at. I was just now reading 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:44.920 a book, you know, many years after he had actually 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:48.240 gone to these restaurants, and so I became fascinated, going, Wow, 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:51.360 this is real, you know. And that was sort of 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:54.880 what I would say really catapulted me into doing a 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:59.600 deeper dive into true crime, if you will, but I 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:03.840 was really focused on serial predators. I wasn't really paying 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:05.760 attention to other types of cases. 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:09.320 Yeah, I understand that. I think when I was younger, 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:12.240 I did pay attention to a lot of true crime stuff. 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:16.720 One was the yogurt Chop murders because I was their 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:21.000 age when these four girls were murdered and it's still 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:25.120 an unsolved case. I remember Columbine feeling shaken to my 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.679 bones that something like that would have happened, because again 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:30.680 that's my time period. And then John Benay, I had 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:32.799 never heard of anything like that happening before. 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:35.640 Yeah, you know, And of course I remember I had 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:38.480 not heard of the yogurt chop murders until I got 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:39.760 into the true crime space. 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:42.400 But I've now familiar. 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:45.119 I've talked to people who are working on that case 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:49.280 within an official capacity. But of course, John Binney Ramsey, 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:52.840 I remember that hitting the headlines and Columbine, which I 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:55.400 don't know if there were if there was a school 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:58.839 shooting prior to that, but that was the one case 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:02.880 that really, you know, brought to public awareness, you know, 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:07.440 the school shooter. And unfortunately, you know, there's been a 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:10.520 rash of copycats, you know, ever since that's just it. 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:13.839 It's like a domino effect, you know, one copying the other. 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:14.720 You know. 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:17.719 For where I was at, I would say sort of 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:21.800 the watershed case was poly Class, and that was a 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:23.760 case I was with the Sheriff's office. 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:26.960 But the the idea. 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:30.800 That an offender, you know, this Richard Allen Davis, who 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:33.520 you know basically had been in and out of prison 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:36.919 his entire life, was able to go inside a house 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:39.440 where this little girl was at an abduct her while 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:42.360 her parents were still inside that house. And then some 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:48.360 of the communication problems between law enforcement agencies. Possibly I 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:50.920 wouldn't say they could have saved her, but they could 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:55.120 have caught him sooner, if you know, other agencies were 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:57.880 aware that there was a subducted girl. But that was 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:00.400 a big case out sort of like a man in 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:03.000 Texas or you know, yogurt shot murders is something that 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:07.719 was in that geosphere, and poly Class was one of 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:10.720 the notable ones early on in my career out there 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:11.480 in the Bay Area. 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:12.119 Yeah. 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:15.279 Absolutely, And I think when I talk to my students 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:18.039 and I say, what are the cases that just haunt 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:21.120 you guys? I mean, it's no surprise they're in college. 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:25.480 They're saying Gabby Patito, and they're saying the Idaho for 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:28.520 the college students who were murdered in Idaho. And it 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:32.400 makes sense because it's it's there, it's their peers, that 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:36.719 group influencers, you know, young people who were on campus 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.720 feeling vulnerable. And so it was just interesting because they 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.520 had never heard of one of the cases. Maybe it 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.320 was called Peterson that I brought up. They were going, what, 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:48.760 so everybody has a has a different you know, lens 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:50.200 of which they look through true crime. 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:53.640 Well, and I think if the case is happening while 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:58.120 you are paying attention to that type of content, you're 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:00.880 going to be invested in it. And when when you 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:04.600 and I were growing up, we didn't have the pervasiveness 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:07.880 of information on the cases like everybody does today. You know, 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:10.440 you might hear you'd read it in the newspaper, or 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:11.920 you'd see it on the news. 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:13.680 That was it. 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:18.000 You couldn't go online to find out more information about 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:20.680 the case or to track the case. As you know, 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:25.920 different aspects developed and became newsworthy, whereas today most certainly 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:29.680 like with Idaho, you know, you can follow the trial 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:33.000 you know online, you know, so it's it's a very 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:36.080 different environment than when we grew up, for sure. 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:40.680 Yeah, absolutely, and I think so much more misinformation that 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:43.480 you know, as our show goes along over the years, 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:46.680 I'm definitely going to want to start dipping into the 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:48.760 rights and wrongs that happened in true crime, in the 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:52.920 true crime community as far as you know polyclass. I 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:55.880 just read an article it's a little bit older, that 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:58.000 was written by her sister in the New York Times 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:03.520 that just talked about the retraumatizing of her family every 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:06.320 time something happens. They've never approved of any you know, 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:09.920 program that has gone on about polyclass and just saying 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:12.360 this is it just over and over again for decades. 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:13.280 This has been going on. 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.560 Yeah, you know, and I've seen that firsthand. We had 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:19.440 another case out in the Bay Area of Zianna, fairchild 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:22.640 girl abducted and ultimately killed out of a leo, and 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:23.400 I became. 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:25.239 Friends with her mom. 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:29.680 Biologically it's her great aunt, Stephanie Cahliculu, but in essence, 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:34.080 Stephanie's the one that raised Theanna, and I've seen Stephanie 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:39.719 go through those same types of waves of being traumatized. 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:43.640 Because of the public attention, you know, something becomes newsworthy 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:46.240 and now she's thrust in front of the cameras again. 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:50.120 And early on she was doing it because first she 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:53.880 was trying to find her daughter, and then once it 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:57.520 became obvious when Xianna Skull was found that she wasn't 0:08:57.520 --> 0:08:59.720 going to get her daughter back, then it was we 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:04.000 need to get the killer. And that's when I got involved. 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:04.240 In that case. 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:08.319 But since then, there's been multiple reasons for Stephanie to 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:12.440 have been put out there, and she really, you know, 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:16.600 struggles with that. And I actually did present Zianna's case 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:20.439 in Mitzi Sanchez, which is also a corresponding case out 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:24.880 there at Crime Con And before I did that, I 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:28.319 talked to Stephanie. I got her permission to make sure 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:30.800 that was something that she was okay with. 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:34.000 So when you and I talk about these cases that 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:37.280 really catch people's attention and then sort of live in infamy, 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:39.960 there are definitely cases that you and I talk about 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:42.600 that I think have been forgotten in history. But at 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:46.800 that time period, we're just so infamous. They can't all 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:49.360 be Lizzie Borden's and Jack the Rippers, and so you know, 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:51.760 that's our goal is to bring these stories back to 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:52.880 see what we can learn. 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:55.280 Well, I think, you know, when you think about it, it's, 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:59.920 you know, it's very much like celebrities. You think about 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.719 some of these individuals that you know, Hollywood, you know, 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:06.040 and they were so famous, let's say back in the 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:09.760 nineteen twenties. M there's a few exceptions, but many of 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:13.720 them have just kind of faded because now new generations 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:19.079 the celebrities have occurred, and the new generations of consumers 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:21.800 are paying attention to that. And so I think the 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:26.520 same thing happens, you know, within the crime stories. You know, 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:30.120 of course, a huge case O. J. Simpson, you know, 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:33.839 for our generation, you know, that was momentous in terms 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:36.480 of so many for so many reasons. But I imagine 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:39.760 a lot of the kids that you are teaching, they 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.640 may have heard of the case, but it probably doesn't 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:43.880 resonate the same way. 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:47.480 I think that my students when we've talked about OJ Simpson, 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:51.440 they understand the facts of the case, they understand the 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:55.280 controversy around it. They had heard of Marcia Clark. I 0:10:55.320 --> 0:11:00.280 don't think they understand the social context around why it 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:04.640 was so momentous, you know, around I racial inequalities and 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:08.960 everything was so polarizing. I don't remember a case not 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:13.360 even Manson that was as polarizing, particularly along you know, 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:16.880 racial lines, as OJ Simpson. So when I talk about that, 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:19.240 they just kind of look at me like what I 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:22.160 just thought? It was this you know, ex football Heisman 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:25.800 Trophy winner who killed his ex wife and her you 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:28.720 know friend, And it's so much deeper than that, and 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:30.320 I think sometimes you just have to live through it 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:31.600 to understand the impact. 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:32.920 Absolutely. 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:35.440 You know, you have a celebrity that many people looked 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:38.800 up to as a hero. You know, he had a 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.679 very engaging personality. You know, I know I was stunned, 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:45.280 you know when that case happened, when that crime happened, 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:48.600 And so there's I think with that type of offender, 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:52.280 you get to where, you know, you have a personal 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:56.600 attachment to that celebrity. And to be frank, you know, 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:59.280 O J. Simpson killed Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman, I 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:00.880 don't want to dance around that. 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:03.320 Well, now, let's talk about a case that I found 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:08.880 really interesting because while it was not polarizing along racial lines, 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:12.960 it is polarizing around gender. And we are going really 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:16.160 far back eighteen fifties and it's I think been a 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:21.120 while since we've dipped our tone into something this far back, 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:24.800 but I think you'll find this case really interesting. It 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:27.800 seems simple sort of from the beginning, but then it 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:30.920 gets more complicated as we move along. So let's go 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:36.120 ahead and set the scene. So this story takes place 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:41.200 in the mid eighteen fifties in Miami County, Ohio, which 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:46.400 is between the towns of Piqua and Colesville. I don't 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:49.720 know how large these places are now, but then they 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:53.040 were small. Piqua is about thirty miles north of Dayton 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:55.959 and as a population of about three thy three hundred 0:12:55.960 --> 0:13:00.559 at the time. Colesville is a rural community. It's about 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:02.959 ten miles south of Piquas. So we've got two different 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:05.400 places that we're talking about. 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:05.680 Here. 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:09.800 We are in April, April third, eighteen fifty five. It's 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:13.520 a Tuesday, and the main person at the middle of 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:17.240 this story is a guy named Arthur Reagan. He is very, very, 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:22.160 very sick. He is suffering from severe stomach illness. And 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:25.520 his physician, who is a guy named doctor Brownell, says 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:29.480 that Arthur has all the symptoms of gastritis or stomach 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:33.920 inflammation with vomiting. If we're talking about that now and 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:37.120 it's something that you've ingested, leave off the poison because 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:39.520 I know that'll be your go to. Is there anything 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:43.760 is it gastritis or what he's experiencing? Is that Could 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:47.000 that be food poisoning? Could that be taking the wrong 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.280 medicine and having a bad interaction. What would that be 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:50.280 in today's terms? 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:53.280 I think all of the above. You know. 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:55.200 The first thing that came to my mind would would 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:57.480 be like a food poisoning. You know, we've all had that. 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:02.480 You know that oftentimes is some sort of nasty bacteria 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:06.760 you know, you know, got out of control on the food. 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:09.480 But of course you could have all sorts of different 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:15.000 substances that aren't necessarily intended to be poisons, but they 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:17.640 have they have irritating properties. 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:25.000 So I was wondering about milk pasteurization. Is there a risk? 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.440 I know there's a risk for pregnant women if you 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:32.560 are having cheese or milk that's not pasteurized. Now And 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:33.440 why is that? 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:38.520 Well, the pasturization process is in essence to eliminate the 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:42.720 bacteria that are present during the milking process kind of 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:46.040 contaminates the milk, and so they bring the temperature of 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:49.800 the milk up to a certain level to kill the 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:51.200 the microorganisms. 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:53.080 You know to a point. 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:56.000 You know, of course, after a period of time, milk 0:14:56.040 --> 0:15:00.720 will still go bad, but the pasturization gives a logger 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:06.840 shelf life. So unpasteurized milk potentially has a greater likelihood 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:10.560 of having a microorganism that your body isn't going to like. 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:14.240 So this story is in eighteen fifty five, and I 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:16.560 was just thinking about this. In eighteen sixty two is 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:19.160 when Louis Pastor came up with the germ theory, which 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:21.800 is just what you're saying. You know, the boiling and milk, 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:25.720 bringing it to a high temperature actually can kill the 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:29.720 bacteria in the yeast because before there were these contaminations 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:33.320 that were coming out, like tuberculosis. So I was thinking 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:36.960 that when he was complaining to his doctor about stomach pains. 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:40.680 Right now, he's sort of on a farm in between cities, 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.120 and what he could be eating that is not nefarious 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:44.440 at this. 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:48.000 Point, no, not at all. And you know, you think 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:51.800 it's not necessarily something that he purposely ingested. You know, 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:54.920 he could have, you know, working on the farm. You know, 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:59.680 imagine the hygiene. How many times he's putting his his fingers, 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:01.840 you know, into his mouth or something like that, and 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:05.240 how dirty his hands could be. You know, contaminate it. 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.560 Let's not to be too too graphic, but contaminate it 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.960 like with animal fecal matter, you know, and of course 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:15.800 the bacteria that are present there, or just the meats 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:18.520 that they're eating. Now you get into the food side 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:23.280 and you know potential contamination with you know, microorganisms that 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:24.520 the body doesn't like. 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:27.080 Now, I'd like you to come up with a new 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:31.480 list of possible natural contaminations based on what Arthur does 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:34.400 for a living. And there might not be any there there. Well, 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:37.240 I'll tell you. Have you heard of a craftsman called 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:40.840 a cooper? No, so it seems like a present tense 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:43.720 term actually from when I looked at it, But a 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:47.480 cooper in the eighteen hundreds, with someone who makes tubs 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:50.960 and vats and wooden barrels that could be used for 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:54.120 wine making. And I first thought when I thought about 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:57.720 his symptoms, I had done a story on a man 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:02.560 who had asthma and was working, you know, with spraying 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.639 all kinds of paint on, spraying paint on cars, and 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:08.240 sometimes you wouldn't wear a mask, and it just sounded awful. 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:11.679 So I was wondering if any of those proses that 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:14.560 you would do to make those even in the eighteen hundreds, 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:16.960 they must have involved some kind of chemical, right, I 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:17.760 would think. 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:21.600 You know, I imagine that there's some sort of sealant that 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:25.120 they're using, and so that'd be my first guess. Tubs 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:28.400 in vats, you know, at least with what I am 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:33.040 picturing from this time frame, they're probably having to shape 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:37.840 you know, form wood, you know, steam it form it 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:43.679 and somehow get it bound together. And there's mechanical ways 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:46.760 to bind it together so the planks you know, stay 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:50.040 in place. But if there it's going to be water tight, 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:52.880 then I think that there's going to be some sort 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:55.960 of seal it, whether it's a tar based sealant or 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:02.360 you know they using you know, rubber, you know selant, 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:05.440 you know, you know, more of a natural type of thing. 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:09.919 But it also could be something from crude oil, you know, 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:15.520 that they've processed out, just like vacoline, you know, petrol, adam, 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:19.400 jelly you know, is something that comes ultimately from crude 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:21.840 you know, So is there something that they are they're 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:24.199 a waxy substance that they get from crude oil, and 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:28.320 then of course there could potentially be a variety of 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:33.680 whether it be mineral based toxins to even organic benzene 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:35.479 for example, could be present. 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:39.359 I'll just tell you sort of what was used commonly, 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:42.119 and this does not mean this is what Arthur was doing. 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:45.880 But these wooden hubs were sort of temporary tubs. They 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:50.720 basically looked like barrels or sometimes they were like water troughs, 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:53.480 so you would dunk yourself in there. So they were 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:57.159 heavy wood, and then they would use iron bands to 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:01.520 reinforce the wooden vertical parts of it, and then sometimes 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:04.560 they had a linen cloth to protect the bather from 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:08.439 getting a little splinter in your bum. So essentially you 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:10.520 know the iron bands and you're right. There must have 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:13.080 also been a seilant in there somewhere, so we don't 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:16.240 really know if that contributes to it. I'm just saying 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:18.159 this is something that he does that we have to 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:25.440 look at too. So Arthur first became sick on Friday. 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:29.080 So when he gets really really sick too, is the 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:32.120 following Tuesday. So I'll give you kind of the chronology, 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:35.280 so he can becomes sick on Friday, he gets better 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:39.560 when doctor Brunelle takes care of him on Sunday. We 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:42.879 have had several cases of a doctor coming to the 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:44.960 aid of someone and they turn out to be the killer. 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:47.680 This is still a true crime show, so you can 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:50.879 imagine this is not a simple illness. And I'm not 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:53.119 saying the doctor is a suspect, but you do have 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:56.520 that access. You have somebody there and he's administering medicine. 0:19:57.080 --> 0:20:01.040 Doctor Burnelle leaves and then Monday back to being sick again, 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:06.000 and it doesn't seem like he's recovering. So he got 0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:08.840 better than he got worse. Floating around and trying to 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:12.240 take care of Arthur is his wife, who is twenty 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:15.800 two years old. She is a church going woman. Her 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:19.840 name is Jane, but everybody calls her Elizabeth Reagan. She's 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:23.200 pregnant at the time. She talks to the doctor and 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:31.080 she says that she thinks that Arthur has purposely poisoned himself, okay, 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:34.639 to make himself sick and then potentially take his own life. 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:37.520 She doesn't give a great explanation for this, that he's 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:41.920 been troubled, he's lived a hard life. This is probably 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:47.240 the tenth story that I've done where fifty percent turn 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:51.040 out to be someone who has intentionally poisoned themselves. In 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:54.320 fifty percent. It's the spouse saying, yeah, he's this and that, 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:57.440 and then it turns out that they're poisoning them. 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:01.159 Is she expressing that he has any suicidal ideas, you know, 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:04.480 is there a life insurance policy, et cetera. You know, 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:08.359 sometimes people will commit suicide, but they need to make 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:10.800 it look like a homicide in order for these policies 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:14.640 to actually be dispersed. Yeah, and you know, so that's 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:16.560 you know, part of what I would be looking at 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:17.679 on this front. 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:18.680 You know, with Arthur. 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:22.119 So, Arthur does not have a life insurance policy that 0:21:22.200 --> 0:21:25.840 I can find. He is not particularly wealthy. I don't 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:28.200 have his exact age, but it looks quite a bit older. 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:29.720 You know, there are not a lot of people who 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:32.520 can sort of come around and talk about their marriage 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:36.280 in general. She is saying that he has a troubled 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:39.560 mind and that this is what she thinks is happening 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:42.520 with him, but she's being pretty vague about it. You know, 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:47.440 Like I said, I had thought, with these excruciating symptoms, 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:50.520 this is not the way most people would have chosen to, 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:53.960 you know, take in their own life. That being said, 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:56.000 you have and no go into this, Paul, but you 0:21:56.040 --> 0:21:59.240 have told me about some pretty horrific ways, including a 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:02.440 table where people have decided to take their own lives. 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:05.280 So now I'm done being incredulous about something like that 0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:06.400 and expecting anything. 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:13.000 Sure, but for somebody to poison themselves, they're not necessarily 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:16.760 wanting to do it over a long period of time. 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:20.359 They're trying to do an acute poisoning, so they die rapidly. 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:24.159 Okay, let's continue on and see what we come up 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:28.119 with with Arthur. Elizabeth. When the doctor says, what are 0:22:28.160 --> 0:22:31.280 you talking about? You think he's poisoning himself, Elizabeth said 0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:34.920 that he had eaten cream of tartar the night before, 0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:39.280 which she now suspects was laced with arsenic. I know 0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:43.080 what arsenic is. My mom kept a container in the 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:45.560 spice rack of cream of tartar. I know it's used 0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:49.040 in baking. I can't remember or ever using it, but 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:51.439 I know it's there, and I think it's still there. Frankly, 0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:54.160 it's thirty years old. I have a list of things 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:56.200 that they would have used it in. But just off 0:22:56.200 --> 0:22:57.840 the top of your head, do you have any idea 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:00.000 what that's use would be in a kitchen? 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:02.320 It's the cream of tartar. 0:23:02.359 --> 0:23:05.320 As far as I know as a baking ingredient, I 0:23:05.320 --> 0:23:08.560 think it's you know, I don't know anything more about it. 0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:11.600 I'm not a baker. It doesn't seem like it's something 0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:14.440 that you would take by itself. It would be something 0:23:14.480 --> 0:23:17.680 that'd be added, you know, to you know, something that's 0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:18.879 cooked or something that's baked. 0:23:18.920 --> 0:23:19.800 But that's all I know. 0:23:20.440 --> 0:23:21.960 One of the things I found out is that cream 0:23:22.000 --> 0:23:25.240 of tartar in the eighteen hundreds was used medicinally for heartburn. 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:27.600 And I think it would be mixed with milk, I 0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:31.600 would suspect, or you know, like a fiber powder would 0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:34.480 be today, so you know, it was mixed up. And 0:23:34.520 --> 0:23:36.840 I think she's saying that he had an upset stomach 0:23:36.920 --> 0:23:41.120 and he took it. Now she says, I actually think 0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:45.479 that this is arsenic that he took, and he was 0:23:45.520 --> 0:23:48.800 pretending to take the cream of tartar to. I don't 0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:51.160 know what it would be. Spare her feelings, I will 0:23:51.200 --> 0:23:53.840 say cream of tartar was used also in the making 0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:56.320 of wine, and we know that, you know, he would 0:23:56.320 --> 0:23:59.440 make wine barrels. So all of this is connected in 0:23:59.520 --> 0:24:01.680 an odd way. So I don't know. 0:24:02.240 --> 0:24:05.080 Is who makes up this cream a tartar, who gives 0:24:05.080 --> 0:24:07.040 it to him or does he go and get it himself? 0:24:07.359 --> 0:24:08.680 You know what is the wife saying? 0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:12.080 She says that he did it. So he got it, okay, 0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:14.520 and took it. He consumed it. I don't think he 0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:16.479 was taking it by this spoonful. I think because it 0:24:16.520 --> 0:24:19.680 was medicinal. The insinuation is is that he was using 0:24:19.720 --> 0:24:21.720 it because he had an upset stomach or some heartburn. 0:24:22.080 --> 0:24:24.399 So obviously, if there's still the source of this cream 0:24:24.400 --> 0:24:25.720 a tartar, that's evidence. 0:24:26.440 --> 0:24:29.120 Yeah. And then on top of that, Arthur has been vomiting, 0:24:29.359 --> 0:24:32.400 and so there the doctor had the foresight of making 0:24:32.440 --> 0:24:34.720 sure he knew where all of this vomit was because 0:24:34.720 --> 0:24:36.960 it was in multiple places, to make sure that if 0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:40.400 something was going awry here with Arthur, that there would 0:24:40.400 --> 0:24:44.359 be some kind of evidence. And the reason is that 0:24:44.560 --> 0:24:48.280 Arthur denied it. When he came back on Monday, Arthur 0:24:48.359 --> 0:24:50.760 had improved and then he started to go downhill and 0:24:50.800 --> 0:24:53.240 he had a conversation with the doctor and he said, 0:24:53.520 --> 0:24:56.800 I did not take it myself, despite what Elizabeth said, 0:24:57.440 --> 0:25:00.440 And he said, I think I'm being poisoned. And when 0:25:00.440 --> 0:25:03.080 the doctor pressed him on it, he would not say 0:25:03.080 --> 0:25:05.800 who did it? He just said, I'm pretty sure I'm 0:25:05.800 --> 0:25:06.560 being poisoned. 0:25:06.960 --> 0:25:09.359 I think you know two thoughts. You know, the doctor 0:25:09.400 --> 0:25:13.879 shows up and Arthur starts feeling better, and whether the 0:25:13.920 --> 0:25:18.439 doctor gave him something, you know, charcoal or whatever. But 0:25:18.520 --> 0:25:22.200 the presence of the doctor may have prevented the offender 0:25:22.280 --> 0:25:25.960 from being able to add to whatever poison is being used. 0:25:25.960 --> 0:25:29.120 Maybe it is this arsenic you know, on that particular day, 0:25:29.160 --> 0:25:32.639 and now Arthur's starting to recover, either from the medicinal 0:25:32.760 --> 0:25:36.120 intervention or just from the lack of ingesting more poison. 0:25:36.240 --> 0:25:41.080 But then starting Monday, he's back to feeling symptoms and 0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:46.280 either the medicinal intervention or off or now he's starting 0:25:46.320 --> 0:25:50.200 to ingest more poison. And then, of course, who has 0:25:50.760 --> 0:25:54.440 you know, the access to Arthur. We know the wife 0:25:54.880 --> 0:25:58.880 Elizabeth does, but is there anybody else that is accessing 0:25:59.000 --> 0:26:02.120 either Arthur directly or anything that he might be ingesting 0:26:02.280 --> 0:26:05.439 inside the house. Let's say a maid going into the 0:26:05.480 --> 0:26:07.960 pantry and spiking the cream of tartar with arsenic. 0:26:08.359 --> 0:26:11.200 Well, let's keep going and find out. Arthur gets worse 0:26:11.200 --> 0:26:13.760 and worse, and that day that the doctor's there, he 0:26:13.880 --> 0:26:17.239 dies because of what he said and of course what 0:26:17.320 --> 0:26:20.760 Elizabeth said. The doctor calls in the authorities, which in 0:26:20.800 --> 0:26:24.000 the eighteen fifties could have been just like a local constable. 0:26:24.560 --> 0:26:26.600 It could have been a deputy, it could have been 0:26:26.760 --> 0:26:29.520 you know, various people, no one, I don't think with 0:26:29.640 --> 0:26:32.159 in depth experience, however, I think you're going to be 0:26:32.160 --> 0:26:35.760 a little surprised by this. They gather the stomach contents 0:26:35.840 --> 0:26:39.560 once there's an autopsy, and they get a dirt sample 0:26:40.040 --> 0:26:43.560 from outside the Reagan home. And they get this dirt 0:26:43.600 --> 0:26:47.359 sample because when he threw up, somebody who was in 0:26:47.440 --> 0:26:51.000 the house, probably Elizabeth, collected it and threw it outside 0:26:51.080 --> 0:26:53.239 to get rid of it. And so they collect this 0:26:53.359 --> 0:26:57.880 dirt sample and they send it off for analysis in Columbus, Ohio, 0:26:58.119 --> 0:27:01.159 big city. They run five different tests, so they had 0:27:01.160 --> 0:27:04.520 the capability of looking for arsenic and it comes back 0:27:04.840 --> 0:27:08.000 arsenic positive, positive for arsenic. And I was wondering if 0:27:08.040 --> 0:27:10.240 you were going to be surprised if they had that 0:27:10.280 --> 0:27:12.800 capability back then to look for arsenic. 0:27:13.480 --> 0:27:15.719 I'm not shocked, I guess is the way to put it, 0:27:15.960 --> 0:27:18.680 you know, like I do have the you know, the 0:27:18.960 --> 0:27:22.840 Essentials of Forensic Medicine book from eighteen ninety two, and 0:27:22.920 --> 0:27:27.639 it's surprising in terms of the depth of chemistry knowledge 0:27:28.160 --> 0:27:31.639 that the toxicology experts. 0:27:31.160 --> 0:27:32.560 Back in the day actually had. 0:27:33.400 --> 0:27:37.040 And so the soil that they're looking at, they're obviously 0:27:37.040 --> 0:27:44.240 not using modern instrumental techniques, nor are they utilizing anything 0:27:44.960 --> 0:27:49.800 really advanced. There in essence reacting that soil with various 0:27:49.840 --> 0:27:53.199 compounds that they know respond a certain way in the 0:27:53.240 --> 0:27:56.440 presence of a certain toxic and so they a compound. 0:27:56.520 --> 0:27:58.640 I don't know what they would have used, but they 0:27:58.680 --> 0:28:01.600 probably reacted that soil oil with a compound and maybe 0:28:01.640 --> 0:28:05.359 microscopically saw a certain shape of crystal and they go up, 0:28:05.520 --> 0:28:08.680 that's positive for arsenic. In this day and age, it's 0:28:08.720 --> 0:28:14.560 just a presumptive test, but back then that's they probably concluded, Yes, 0:28:14.600 --> 0:28:18.000 this is arsenic. There's arsenic in this soil sample, and 0:28:18.119 --> 0:28:20.080 his vomit is mixed with that dirt. 0:28:20.520 --> 0:28:22.879 And then you have to think, with arsenic in so 0:28:23.119 --> 0:28:27.119 many products that were so easily available, I mean, mostly 0:28:27.200 --> 0:28:30.119 rough on rats and products used to kill animals. They're 0:28:30.160 --> 0:28:33.639 on a farm type situation, is this something that he 0:28:33.680 --> 0:28:37.800 would have ingested accidentally somehow, some way. But there's a 0:28:37.800 --> 0:28:41.520 newspaper in nineteen ten that says that he had ingested 0:28:41.680 --> 0:28:44.800 enough arsenic according to the people who tested it, to 0:28:44.880 --> 0:28:48.840 kill quote half a dozen men. Now that's vague, but well, 0:28:49.080 --> 0:28:51.320 it sounds like a shit ton of arsenic to me? 0:28:52.880 --> 0:28:55.480 Is that the scientific term? 0:28:55.720 --> 0:28:55.960 Yeah? 0:28:56.000 --> 0:28:58.000 You know, I think, well, I kind of have a 0:28:58.040 --> 0:29:00.680 problem because I don't think that there would be any 0:29:00.720 --> 0:29:02.840 way back in eighteen fifty for them to do what 0:29:02.880 --> 0:29:07.760 we would call a quantitative analysis. You know, in essence, 0:29:08.320 --> 0:29:12.240 there's probably a subjective opinion by the I'm going to 0:29:12.280 --> 0:29:15.560 call the person a toxicologist that is going this is 0:29:15.600 --> 0:29:19.960 a strong reaction, stronger than what they typically see. But 0:29:20.320 --> 0:29:22.800 it's in many ways it's out of context. You know, 0:29:22.840 --> 0:29:25.720 you're dealing with something that you know, is it hasn't 0:29:25.720 --> 0:29:30.520 been concentrated because of you know, the vomit aspect and 0:29:30.720 --> 0:29:33.600 in the soil, and is there something going on there? 0:29:34.040 --> 0:29:37.480 So I don't know, I really am skeptical about an 0:29:37.520 --> 0:29:41.960 opinion like that, but I think what I would conclude 0:29:42.080 --> 0:29:45.280 is is that if this person actually has some experience 0:29:45.360 --> 0:29:49.400 testing a variety of arsenic containing samples, that they saw 0:29:49.520 --> 0:29:53.800 a very strong and quick reaction and concluded, oh, there's 0:29:53.800 --> 0:29:54.800 a lot of arsenic here. 0:29:54.920 --> 0:29:56.960 That's probably about the extent that they can say. 0:29:57.360 --> 0:30:00.800 Well, of course the suspicion is on Elizabeth. I don't 0:30:00.800 --> 0:30:04.560 think anybody believes, including the doctor, that he took all 0:30:04.600 --> 0:30:06.760 this stuff himself. It would have been so painful and 0:30:06.840 --> 0:30:09.280 as he said, over such a long period of time, right, 0:30:09.320 --> 0:30:12.520 It just seemed sure, especially after Arthur said I think 0:30:12.520 --> 0:30:15.840 I'm being poisoned. I don't know why he didn't say anything. 0:30:16.120 --> 0:30:19.600 Maybe he didn't have conclusive proof that it was his 0:30:19.640 --> 0:30:22.720 wife or a neighbor. We've certainly heard about, you know, 0:30:22.840 --> 0:30:26.200 neighbor disputes, So there's a list of suspects that could 0:30:26.280 --> 0:30:30.080 pop up right now. They're really homing in on Elizabeth, though. 0:30:30.000 --> 0:30:32.719 Well, I think with Arthur making that statement about I 0:30:32.720 --> 0:30:35.959 think I'm being poisoned, you know, in many ways, that 0:30:36.120 --> 0:30:39.680 negates him doing this to himself, because if he was, 0:30:40.560 --> 0:30:44.760 he's now undoing the reason he would be poisoning himself, 0:30:45.240 --> 0:30:47.600 you know. And now he's saying it's a homicide, right 0:30:47.680 --> 0:30:50.720 or somebody's trying to hurt me, and ultimately it's a 0:30:50.760 --> 0:30:55.640 homicide through poisoning. So this does seem to indicate that 0:30:56.280 --> 0:31:01.800 somebody with Elizabeth the primary person having access, is trying 0:31:01.840 --> 0:31:07.160 to kill him utilizing the arsenic. Now, Elizabeth is prime 0:31:07.200 --> 0:31:10.920 suspect for sure, but I also go to, well, if 0:31:11.040 --> 0:31:14.120 Arthur's going in himself to the cream of tartar, is 0:31:14.160 --> 0:31:17.600 there somebody else that could be adding arsenic to that 0:31:17.960 --> 0:31:19.160 cream of tartar? 0:31:19.480 --> 0:31:21.719 Yeah? Oh, versus just Elizabeth. 0:31:22.280 --> 0:31:24.960 I don't believe they're finding arsenic anywhere in the house. 0:31:25.480 --> 0:31:28.320 I don't believe they find the cream of tartar anywhere 0:31:28.720 --> 0:31:31.880 that you know we're talking about, But that's not reported, 0:31:31.960 --> 0:31:33.800 so I don't know it could have been there, and 0:31:34.120 --> 0:31:36.760 I think that if it had been tested, there probably 0:31:36.800 --> 0:31:39.840 would have been a note about that. But the way 0:31:39.880 --> 0:31:42.600 we're going into this is because of what he said 0:31:43.120 --> 0:31:47.520 and because of Elizabeth planting it very early that she 0:31:47.680 --> 0:31:49.800 believed that he was trying to take his own life. 0:31:50.200 --> 0:31:52.680 People of course, are looking at the wife. Sure, so 0:31:53.120 --> 0:31:55.480 the police are thinking what kind of physical evidence do 0:31:55.600 --> 0:31:58.080 we have? And so far they don't. They don't have 0:31:58.200 --> 0:32:02.800 any physical evidence that they can say that would prove 0:32:03.160 --> 0:32:06.560 aside from his statement you know that I didn't do this. 0:32:07.040 --> 0:32:10.640 Who would have done this to him? If the doors 0:32:10.680 --> 0:32:12.840 are unlocked and there are other people in his life? 0:32:13.040 --> 0:32:16.640 Well, and that's where you know it's his victimology. You 0:32:16.720 --> 0:32:20.760 have the spouse and you know what is that relationship, Like, 0:32:21.080 --> 0:32:24.080 how would she benefit if Arthur is no longer around 0:32:24.800 --> 0:32:28.680 and has died. But then what else has Arthur been 0:32:28.880 --> 0:32:32.840 involved with? And is there a way for somebody on 0:32:32.880 --> 0:32:36.960 the outside to have accomplished this poisoning if Arthur is 0:32:37.000 --> 0:32:39.360 not leaving the house during this time that he's ill. 0:32:39.800 --> 0:32:43.520 Okay, well, let's get into what becomes the more scandalous 0:32:43.520 --> 0:32:45.680 parts of this story, which are to me with some 0:32:45.720 --> 0:32:49.680 of the most interesting. So a simple mistake leads to 0:32:50.240 --> 0:32:53.880 some pretty big accusations. So here's what happens around this 0:32:54.000 --> 0:32:57.880 time when the investigators are working on the case and 0:32:57.960 --> 0:33:00.240 the doctor is trying to figure out what happened. There 0:33:00.280 --> 0:33:03.960 is a man who shows up to the investigators. His 0:33:04.080 --> 0:33:08.480 name is J. L. Temple. He is the assistant postmaster 0:33:09.080 --> 0:33:13.640 of a town nearby Colesville called Troy, and he comes 0:33:13.880 --> 0:33:18.280 with this I think damning information months earlier, so January. 0:33:18.360 --> 0:33:21.920 We're in April when Arthur dies. So in January he 0:33:22.120 --> 0:33:25.120 had gotten a letter that he found really troubling. It 0:33:25.200 --> 0:33:27.600 was returned to the post office after it had been 0:33:27.600 --> 0:33:31.640 given to the wrong person. Eventually, when he gets this 0:33:31.760 --> 0:33:35.320 letter back, and there's a man named Murray who returns 0:33:35.400 --> 0:33:38.920 this letter and says, this is not me, It's meant 0:33:38.920 --> 0:33:42.880 for somebody else. Then JAYL Temple looks at this letter 0:33:42.920 --> 0:33:45.920 and realizes that he gave it to the wrong person. 0:33:46.400 --> 0:33:48.880 The letter was not meant for a man named Murray. 0:33:49.000 --> 0:33:52.360 It was meant for a man whose last name was Maori. 0:33:52.760 --> 0:33:56.080 So James Maury was supposed to get this letter. And 0:33:56.440 --> 0:34:00.680 it was dated December sixth, about a month earlier, and 0:34:00.720 --> 0:34:03.240 it was sent from a different town, the Piqua town 0:34:03.240 --> 0:34:06.000 that I was telling you about before. So it was 0:34:06.000 --> 0:34:10.279 so disturbing that the postmaster made a copy and then 0:34:10.360 --> 0:34:14.200 gave it to the rightful owner of this who was 0:34:14.360 --> 0:34:16.880 James Mawy. This is kind of a long letter, but 0:34:16.920 --> 0:34:18.440 I feel like you're going to want to hear all 0:34:18.480 --> 0:34:20.720 of it. So this guy's name is James. It's written 0:34:20.719 --> 0:34:24.080 to James, and it says, dear Jimmy, once again, I 0:34:24.080 --> 0:34:27.080 am seeded to write a few lines to you. I 0:34:27.120 --> 0:34:29.560 said I would not write anymore, but you know I 0:34:29.600 --> 0:34:32.880 can't refrain from it, and as I have been living 0:34:33.040 --> 0:34:36.440 in a perfect hell. If you will allow me the 0:34:36.520 --> 0:34:40.480 expression it is a hard one, but nevertheless true. And 0:34:40.520 --> 0:34:43.160 I have been tormented day and night since I came home. 0:34:43.440 --> 0:34:46.319 He so we don't know who he is, saw me 0:34:46.440 --> 0:34:49.960 kiss you and that was enough. Oh, I have had 0:34:50.040 --> 0:34:53.440 to suffer for it. I did not think he saw me, 0:34:53.800 --> 0:34:57.680 but he was watching me. I'm so near beside myself. 0:34:58.160 --> 0:35:00.759 I hardly know what I am doing. He says, I 0:35:00.840 --> 0:35:04.719 shall not go home anymore, and he says he will 0:35:04.760 --> 0:35:08.000 not get me any more clothes, and then I can't 0:35:08.040 --> 0:35:11.560 go as much as I have. Now, I can't stand 0:35:11.560 --> 0:35:15.399 this any longer, and I appeal for your help. There 0:35:15.480 --> 0:35:18.239 is another part of this letter, Paul, but it's unsigned. 0:35:18.400 --> 0:35:21.640 I will say this eventually does get tied to Elizabeth Reagan. 0:35:22.120 --> 0:35:24.800 Yeah, that's what I kind of figured. I mean stating 0:35:24.840 --> 0:35:30.280 the obvious. Obviously, Elizabeth seems to have a relationship with James, 0:35:30.520 --> 0:35:34.719 and that relationship was discovered by Arthur. Now she is 0:35:34.800 --> 0:35:39.239 confiding in James on how her life at home is 0:35:39.440 --> 0:35:45.719 miserable because he's basically taking over control and what she's 0:35:45.840 --> 0:35:50.759 doing as well. As it sounds like Elizabeth under the 0:35:50.800 --> 0:35:53.799 guise of going to see her parents is possibly when 0:35:53.840 --> 0:35:57.399 she's slipping out to go see James, and so Arthur 0:35:57.480 --> 0:36:00.280 is going You're not doing that anymore, You're staying home. 0:36:00.640 --> 0:36:03.959 This letter, at least with what you've read so far, 0:36:04.440 --> 0:36:08.640 makes it sound like Elizabeth is feeling trapped. Now, she's 0:36:09.239 --> 0:36:12.279 having to figure out how do I get out of 0:36:12.320 --> 0:36:15.239 this trap? And it sounds like she's possibly appealing to 0:36:15.360 --> 0:36:18.640 James to help her at this point in the letter. 0:36:19.480 --> 0:36:21.800 What a letter to be delivered to the wrong person. 0:36:22.160 --> 0:36:25.840 I know this isn't me and this is somebody else? 0:36:27.200 --> 0:36:29.719 Can you not read? It is not Marie, it's mottle Boy, 0:36:29.840 --> 0:36:32.279 it's Maori. Well do you want to hear the second 0:36:32.320 --> 0:36:34.759 half of this because then it gets really specific? 0:36:35.360 --> 0:36:37.400 Of course, I do you know? Of course you know 0:36:37.480 --> 0:36:41.000 I'm now questioning the pregnancy and who's the father? 0:36:41.360 --> 0:36:44.680 This is what else? Now it says is Elizabeth is 0:36:44.719 --> 0:36:48.120 the letter writer here, even though it's not signed. I 0:36:48.200 --> 0:36:51.080 have thought of one more plan. I'm going to make 0:36:51.280 --> 0:36:54.640 one more proposition to you, and if you will do it, 0:36:54.719 --> 0:36:57.680 I will grant you the request you have so long 0:36:57.800 --> 0:37:00.640 asked of me, as soon as you do what I 0:37:00.680 --> 0:37:04.200 want you to do or before, if you will only 0:37:04.239 --> 0:37:08.080 do what I want you now, it is this, You 0:37:08.239 --> 0:37:11.120 make a proposition to him to go with you to 0:37:11.280 --> 0:37:15.120 look at some new country to Oregon or Wisconsin or 0:37:15.120 --> 0:37:18.120 some other place, and name the period right off. And 0:37:18.160 --> 0:37:20.359 if he says he has not the means, you tell 0:37:20.440 --> 0:37:23.160 him you will furnish him with the means if he 0:37:23.239 --> 0:37:26.440 will go for company. So clearly James and Arthur know 0:37:26.520 --> 0:37:29.160 each other. Ye, And then I will persuade him to go. 0:37:29.840 --> 0:37:33.640 And then you can go on horseback or on the cars. 0:37:34.160 --> 0:37:36.960 And you can take your two horses and go part 0:37:37.000 --> 0:37:39.560 of the way on the cars, and you can take 0:37:39.640 --> 0:37:42.120 the horses and go the rest of the way, that 0:37:42.280 --> 0:37:44.920 is till you get a good ways away from here. 0:37:45.160 --> 0:37:48.279 And you can procure your poison and administer it in 0:37:48.360 --> 0:37:52.319 his oysters, and he will never know the difference. You 0:37:52.320 --> 0:37:54.359 can eat your oysters on the road, or you can 0:37:54.400 --> 0:37:57.600 give them to some farmhouse. They will never know the difference. 0:37:58.000 --> 0:38:00.799 And you can pretend to take it hard, to think 0:38:00.880 --> 0:38:02.520 you have to turn back. 0:38:02.640 --> 0:38:04.880 So to pretend to take it hard. 0:38:05.000 --> 0:38:09.680 Like if Arthur dies as a result of eating oysters. 0:38:09.440 --> 0:38:12.520 Oh that's it. And then he's so upset he has 0:38:12.560 --> 0:38:13.920 to move. He gets to go back home. 0:38:13.960 --> 0:38:18.120 He gets to go back. And now she's promising him. 0:38:18.200 --> 0:38:22.120 I guess the way that I'm interpreting the early part 0:38:22.440 --> 0:38:26.120 of the second part of the letter is it sounds 0:38:26.160 --> 0:38:30.800 like James has been asking for a more involved relationship 0:38:31.000 --> 0:38:35.360 with Elizabeth, and so she's now saying, you do this, basically, 0:38:35.520 --> 0:38:40.040 kill Arthur, and I will do what you've been asking for, 0:38:40.080 --> 0:38:42.960 which sounds like whether that's a marriage or something more 0:38:43.440 --> 0:38:46.279 involved than what they've been able to do while she's 0:38:46.320 --> 0:38:47.400 been married with Arthur. 0:38:48.080 --> 0:38:51.360 I will inform you now that James is married with children, 0:38:51.840 --> 0:38:55.239 So then it gets more complicated. Well maybe not, I 0:38:55.280 --> 0:38:58.080 mean a little look on your face and maybe not. 0:38:58.440 --> 0:38:59.680 Well what tangled? 0:38:59.719 --> 0:39:02.600 Well they weave? No, yea. 0:39:03.000 --> 0:39:05.560 I was just thinking oysters in the middle of the country. 0:39:06.160 --> 0:39:10.720 I've never had oysters. I don't think I can ingest 0:39:10.719 --> 0:39:11.880 a whole creature like that. 0:39:11.920 --> 0:39:13.279 I'm very picky when it comes to. 0:39:14.360 --> 0:39:16.120 Eating food, jesting whole creatures. 0:39:16.920 --> 0:39:20.680 Maybe one of these days, with a sufficient bourbon in me, 0:39:20.719 --> 0:39:21.320 I might try. 0:39:21.520 --> 0:39:23.799 Yeah, not with me, buddy, I don't like oysters either. 0:39:24.000 --> 0:39:28.680 Oh, but I was just thinking why specifically oysters, and 0:39:29.200 --> 0:39:31.440 I imagine oysters in the middle of the country were 0:39:31.480 --> 0:39:34.240 probably a common source of food poisoning. 0:39:34.680 --> 0:39:37.799 They were a delicacy in the eighteen hundreds in certain parts, 0:39:37.840 --> 0:39:40.759 and certainly I would think Ohio, I would think it 0:39:40.800 --> 0:39:43.799 would be very difficult, no matter what the risk is, 0:39:43.880 --> 0:39:46.840 for somebody like Arthur Reagan to say no to something 0:39:46.960 --> 0:39:49.359 like that, because it would have been pricey for them 0:39:49.400 --> 0:39:53.520 to get them, and I wonder if they're packed correctly, 0:39:53.800 --> 0:39:56.439 they would be salty, like with salt water. I don't 0:39:56.440 --> 0:39:59.239 know what arsenic tastes like, but for some reason, I 0:39:59.280 --> 0:40:02.600 have heard of oil being poisoned with arsenic before. So 0:40:03.160 --> 0:40:06.200 this doesn't seem novel, but it's definitely a choice. Cream 0:40:06.200 --> 0:40:08.840 of tartar seems like it's looking pretty good at this point. 0:40:09.280 --> 0:40:12.319 Okay, so the use of the oysters is really just 0:40:12.680 --> 0:40:14.640 you know, it's like offering up you know. 0:40:14.880 --> 0:40:17.440 Nice chocolate, right, It's yeah, Okay. 0:40:17.560 --> 0:40:23.320 So she has devised a plan and she is manipulating 0:40:23.440 --> 0:40:27.600 James in order to in essence, take care of Arthur 0:40:28.120 --> 0:40:28.600 for her. 0:40:29.200 --> 0:40:29.960 That's interesting. 0:40:30.200 --> 0:40:34.600 It'll be interesting to see how Arthur ends up being 0:40:34.640 --> 0:40:38.360 poisoned in his own house, because it doesn't sound like 0:40:38.440 --> 0:40:42.399 this trip must have happened. He didn't receive this well. 0:40:42.400 --> 0:40:45.279 He received the letter well before. Arthur actually ends up 0:40:45.360 --> 0:40:46.160 being poisoned. 0:40:46.239 --> 0:40:50.000 Right, it's January, yes, so that's what three or four 0:40:50.040 --> 0:40:50.680 months before. 0:40:51.120 --> 0:40:54.080 I wondered, did the postmaster actually tell James, hey, this 0:40:54.239 --> 0:40:56.960 was accidentally delivered to somebody else who opened it and 0:40:57.040 --> 0:41:00.640 read it. Or did he just kind of repackage the 0:41:00.640 --> 0:41:04.160 the letter and give it to James without divulging that 0:41:04.560 --> 0:41:07.320 you know. And so now James is kicking into motion 0:41:07.920 --> 0:41:11.560 what Elizabeth wants, but later in time than what Elizabeth 0:41:11.600 --> 0:41:12.960 initially thought would happen. 0:41:13.400 --> 0:41:17.560 So the postmaster copies this letter. So to me, that 0:41:17.640 --> 0:41:20.200 means he clearly didn't turn it over to the investigators. 0:41:20.200 --> 0:41:23.719 So he turned this back over to James, but kept 0:41:23.719 --> 0:41:26.560 a copy of the letter, which is very smart. There's 0:41:26.600 --> 0:41:28.799 a little bit left. Tell me if this makes sense 0:41:28.840 --> 0:41:31.319 to you. So the last thing she says to him 0:41:31.640 --> 0:41:34.840 is pretend like this is terrible and that you're so 0:41:34.920 --> 0:41:36.960 upset you have to go back home. When you have 0:41:37.000 --> 0:41:40.319 accomplished what I have told you. Mayah, she's manipulative. When 0:41:40.320 --> 0:41:43.520 you accomplish what I have told you, then you can 0:41:43.560 --> 0:41:46.799 telegraph to me that he is dead. I will tell 0:41:46.840 --> 0:41:50.799 the templars and have them make up thirty dollars and 0:41:50.920 --> 0:41:54.799 send to you to bear his expenses, So Arthur must 0:41:54.800 --> 0:41:57.239 have been a member, is what I'm assuming. If you 0:41:57.320 --> 0:42:00.360 will come up as soon as you get this, I 0:42:00.400 --> 0:42:04.200 will tell you better. Now, dear, do come. You know 0:42:04.280 --> 0:42:07.080 I love you, you are well aware of it. I 0:42:07.120 --> 0:42:10.239 will write no more till I see you come up 0:42:10.360 --> 0:42:14.240 right away. My ink is pale. You're right, it sounds 0:42:14.239 --> 0:42:17.640 like he wants more because she seems to be emphasizing 0:42:17.680 --> 0:42:20.560 to him and reassuring him how much that she loves him, 0:42:20.600 --> 0:42:23.360 and then she's asking this huge thing. She obviously trusts 0:42:23.400 --> 0:42:25.239 him enough to not go to authorities. 0:42:25.800 --> 0:42:29.759 Yeah, but also there's there's a two way street here, 0:42:30.160 --> 0:42:33.200 or maybe a three way street, because James is married himself, 0:42:34.120 --> 0:42:37.960 you know. So now even if he carries out this 0:42:38.120 --> 0:42:43.200 plot that Elizabeth is launching and gets rid of Arthur, 0:42:43.560 --> 0:42:46.840 well that frees up Elizabeth. But he has a family 0:42:46.920 --> 0:42:50.160 at home that isn't necessarily going to be very accepting 0:42:50.200 --> 0:42:53.520 of Elizabeth in his life, you know. So James is 0:42:53.560 --> 0:42:56.680 sort of in a in a pinch from that perspective. 0:42:57.000 --> 0:42:59.719 So something has you know, I guess what are the 0:42:59.800 --> 0:43:02.400 quest since I have? Did James and Arthur actually go 0:43:02.480 --> 0:43:06.560 on a trip to find this plot of land or 0:43:07.040 --> 0:43:10.880 did that just dissolve over time for one reason like 0:43:11.000 --> 0:43:15.400 Arthur's Like, now I'm not interested, and so now Elizabeth 0:43:15.400 --> 0:43:18.240 and James have to concoct a different way of getting 0:43:18.280 --> 0:43:18.879 rid of Arthur. 0:43:19.320 --> 0:43:21.919 Yeah. I think once we get into the legal part 0:43:21.960 --> 0:43:25.000 of this, maybe that'll answer some questions. I don't believe 0:43:25.040 --> 0:43:27.680 the trip ever happened, and I think that they had 0:43:27.719 --> 0:43:32.160 to kind of punt regarding James's family. I don't think 0:43:32.239 --> 0:43:35.920 James is thinking very far ahead, is the impression I'm getting. 0:43:36.680 --> 0:43:39.960 So James is thirty two, married with children. As I mentioned, 0:43:40.600 --> 0:43:43.239 he has brought. Now explain this to me. He's brought 0:43:43.280 --> 0:43:46.560 to court for a preliminary trial. Is that the same thing? 0:43:46.600 --> 0:43:49.040 Do you think as a preliminary hearing? This is not 0:43:49.080 --> 0:43:52.279 a murder trial. It sounds like it's in for questioning. 0:43:52.400 --> 0:43:55.399 But there are people testifying, including Elizabeth. 0:43:55.239 --> 0:43:56.919 It was this related to Arthur's death. 0:43:56.960 --> 0:43:59.520 Then yes, it's not a murder trial. It sounds like 0:43:59.560 --> 0:44:02.960 a pulmonary hearing. But they're calling it a trial just 0:44:03.000 --> 0:44:04.720 to see if it should go on to trial. 0:44:05.080 --> 0:44:09.720 That sounds more I think akin to like a grand jury. Okay, 0:44:09.800 --> 0:44:16.200 with preliminary hearings, that's after somebody has been arrested, charged, 0:44:16.280 --> 0:44:19.560 or reigned, right, and so there you have a defendant. 0:44:20.040 --> 0:44:22.360 So if there isn't a if you don't have a 0:44:22.400 --> 0:44:24.880 defendant and they're just hearing the facts of the case, 0:44:24.920 --> 0:44:27.719 it sounds like either a coroner's inquest or maybe a 0:44:27.760 --> 0:44:28.520 grand jury. 0:44:29.040 --> 0:44:31.440 I think this is probably you're right, akin to a 0:44:31.440 --> 0:44:35.239 grand jury. He's not under arrest, and I think they're 0:44:35.280 --> 0:44:37.399 just trying to figure out if there's any there there. 0:44:37.840 --> 0:44:43.240 And we do have Elizabeth explaining a lot. So now 0:44:43.239 --> 0:44:47.120 tell me what you think if you are a defense 0:44:47.160 --> 0:44:52.520 attorney for James and a defense attorney for Elizabeth, what 0:44:52.880 --> 0:44:56.120 is the best way to go. The only thing implicating 0:44:56.200 --> 0:44:59.120 James right now is this letter, the stinking letter. We 0:44:59.239 --> 0:45:01.359 know a fingerprint. They're not doing any of that kind 0:45:01.360 --> 0:45:04.120 of stuff. They're not putting arsenic in his hand. But 0:45:04.280 --> 0:45:08.560 then he knows that his girlfriend is going to sit 0:45:08.600 --> 0:45:12.200 on the stand and you know, testify maybe against him, 0:45:12.239 --> 0:45:15.279 maybe not. I don't know if he knows. So I'm 0:45:15.280 --> 0:45:17.680 not quite sure what the best tact is for either 0:45:17.760 --> 0:45:20.320 of these people who are now under suspicion for killing 0:45:20.440 --> 0:45:21.080 Arthur Reagan. 0:45:21.640 --> 0:45:23.720 Well, the defense is going to be these two pointing 0:45:23.719 --> 0:45:27.960 fingers at each other. But you think about James. You know, 0:45:28.040 --> 0:45:32.640 this letter, it's addressed to him, but it's not signed 0:45:32.719 --> 0:45:37.400 by Elizabeth, you know, so of course Elizabeth's attorney is 0:45:37.440 --> 0:45:40.680 going to say Bett didn't come from Elizabeth. How can 0:45:40.719 --> 0:45:43.520 you prove it came from Elizabeth? You know in eighteen fifty, 0:45:43.640 --> 0:45:47.160 like you said, no, no fingerprints, no DNA, no signature, 0:45:48.200 --> 0:45:51.480 handwriting analysis. You know, maybe somebody says, well, it looks 0:45:51.520 --> 0:45:54.960 like her handwriting. So that's that's pretty weak, you know, 0:45:55.040 --> 0:45:59.799 from just the letter itself. Nor does does it even 0:46:00.400 --> 0:46:01.240 Arthur's name? 0:46:02.120 --> 0:46:03.640 It's he, you know. 0:46:03.760 --> 0:46:06.319 So there's a lot of wiggle room that I could 0:46:06.320 --> 0:46:11.400 see a defense attorney exploiting under those types of circumstances 0:46:11.400 --> 0:46:15.080 with that letter to defend Elizabeth. You know, right now, 0:46:15.160 --> 0:46:19.439 the biggest thing is is arsenic is found. Elizabeth has 0:46:19.480 --> 0:46:22.680 access to Arthur has access to the cream of tartar. 0:46:22.960 --> 0:46:25.440 The doctor has been inside the house, you know, he 0:46:25.600 --> 0:46:28.600 mostly you know, has to be considered, and you could 0:46:28.600 --> 0:46:31.160 see a defense pointing at the doctor and saying the 0:46:31.200 --> 0:46:34.560 doctor's one that did this. It would be really tough. 0:46:34.600 --> 0:46:36.960 I think James is in the best position, you know, 0:46:37.000 --> 0:46:39.600 at least with what you've told me is he lives 0:46:39.800 --> 0:46:43.840 a distance away. Unless somebody have witnesses that could put James, 0:46:43.880 --> 0:46:46.319 you know, lurking around the house around the time Arthur 0:46:46.360 --> 0:46:48.920 starts getting sick, It's going to be tough to put 0:46:49.280 --> 0:46:54.160 the poisoning on James from the distance. But it sounds 0:46:54.239 --> 0:46:57.520 like Elizabeth in this letter is asking James to come 0:46:57.680 --> 0:47:00.400 visit her. So does that visit a her? 0:47:00.840 --> 0:47:04.719 Well, let's get into what everybody says here. Elizabeth has 0:47:04.800 --> 0:47:08.719 been romantically involved with James in the past before they 0:47:08.760 --> 0:47:12.840 both got married. Okay, so when she is talking at this, 0:47:13.040 --> 0:47:15.680 let's just call this grand jury testimony. When she is 0:47:15.760 --> 0:47:19.080 doing this, she is saying, you know, we were together 0:47:19.160 --> 0:47:23.040 before we met our spouses, then we stopped being together 0:47:23.160 --> 0:47:27.280 after that. What she says how they reconnected is interesting. 0:47:27.960 --> 0:47:32.160 She reconnected with him. So Maren was confused, as am 0:47:32.160 --> 0:47:35.400 I about this last summer a year ago, so you know, 0:47:35.520 --> 0:47:37.520 she hasn't seen She says that they have not seen 0:47:37.560 --> 0:47:41.960 each other for a while, and she was visiting her 0:47:41.960 --> 0:47:45.799 father's home in Colesville. She says she was nursing her 0:47:45.840 --> 0:47:49.480 baby at her dad's house when James, who lived in 0:47:49.520 --> 0:47:52.080 the area, showed up and declared his love for her. 0:47:52.560 --> 0:47:55.360 You know, that is kind of a pretty bold statement. 0:47:55.719 --> 0:47:59.279 She says that she said, I'm not interested James. I've 0:47:59.320 --> 0:48:03.520 got a baby. But at some point the baby passes away. 0:48:04.080 --> 0:48:07.239 She sees James again a few months later. She's in 0:48:07.280 --> 0:48:11.040 a state of grief. She's very vulnerable, and she succumbs 0:48:11.080 --> 0:48:13.880 and they start this affair. There doesn't seem to be 0:48:13.960 --> 0:48:17.120 anything nefarious about the baby dying. I'm sure it was 0:48:17.160 --> 0:48:21.040 like bacterial effecture something like that. They're not suspecting anything, 0:48:21.320 --> 0:48:23.480 but it sounds like from the beginning of this testimony 0:48:23.560 --> 0:48:28.160 she's definitely sort of setting herself up as the vulnerable 0:48:28.680 --> 0:48:31.400 young woman slash young girl. So she would have been 0:48:31.440 --> 0:48:35.040 probably twenty twenty one when this started. James is ten 0:48:35.080 --> 0:48:38.080 years older, so you know, who is sort of falling 0:48:38.480 --> 0:48:43.000 for this and this affair begins. So she sounds like 0:48:43.040 --> 0:48:45.120 she's being honest. She's saying, yes, we were having an affair, 0:48:45.120 --> 0:48:47.640 we were sleeping together, which in the eighteen fifties would 0:48:47.640 --> 0:48:50.640 have been something else to say, but she's being honest 0:48:50.680 --> 0:48:52.080 about it. So what do you think so far? 0:48:52.440 --> 0:48:57.440 Well, this is just you know, typical human relationships. You know, 0:48:58.080 --> 0:49:01.440 whether you've got the marriages or you have you know, 0:49:01.560 --> 0:49:04.479 some partner that you're with, but then you've also got 0:49:04.560 --> 0:49:06.880 you know, feelings for somebody else. I mean, this is 0:49:06.920 --> 0:49:11.640 a long term relationship between the two relatively speaking, something 0:49:12.120 --> 0:49:15.600 caused both of them to marry somebody else. But then 0:49:15.840 --> 0:49:19.560 most early it sounds like James is still pining for Elizabeth. 0:49:19.880 --> 0:49:23.839 I guess Elizabeth actually has also got emotions for him. 0:49:23.880 --> 0:49:26.960 When they restart and rekindle this affair, you know, and 0:49:26.960 --> 0:49:30.759 this is possibly the pregnancy, maybe a result of the 0:49:31.160 --> 0:49:35.399 sexual interactions you know, during this affair. But then Elizabeth, 0:49:35.760 --> 0:49:40.720 you know, Arthur finds out and now Elizabeth is capitalizing 0:49:40.800 --> 0:49:44.799 on James's emotions for her to manipulate him to get 0:49:44.920 --> 0:49:47.719 rid of Arthur. And I imagine in eighteen fifties, the 0:49:47.800 --> 0:49:53.120 idea of a divorce is probably a tough thing to accept. 0:49:53.719 --> 0:49:57.879 It would be difficult. But do you see anything any 0:49:57.880 --> 0:50:01.480 credibility in what she's saying, which she is I just 0:50:01.600 --> 0:50:07.160 lost my baby, And probably she's framing Arthur as crotchety, 0:50:07.400 --> 0:50:10.800 maybe not the best husband in the world. She's having 0:50:10.800 --> 0:50:14.040 this affair that she was manipulated into. She doesn't know 0:50:14.040 --> 0:50:16.360 how to get out of it. And so she's saying, 0:50:16.440 --> 0:50:18.839 do you see how that there's a world where that 0:50:18.920 --> 0:50:22.280 could also be happening when you have an older person 0:50:22.320 --> 0:50:26.120 like James sort of pressing against her constantly, because she says, 0:50:26.360 --> 0:50:29.880 Paul that James said, run away with me. Every single 0:50:29.960 --> 0:50:32.799 time she was in town visiting her dad, he would 0:50:32.880 --> 0:50:36.680 find her. And then he says, let's poison Arthur to 0:50:36.760 --> 0:50:39.560 make this much easier on both of us. That's what 0:50:39.600 --> 0:50:39.960 she says. 0:50:40.000 --> 0:50:44.720 He says her perspective is a possibility, but also sounds 0:50:44.760 --> 0:50:50.160 like she's minimizing, you know, in essence, she's saying, he's 0:50:50.280 --> 0:50:54.279 the manipulator. I kind of succumbed to the manipulation, and 0:50:54.320 --> 0:50:58.040 he's the one that is like, let's get rid of Arthur. Well, 0:50:58.040 --> 0:50:59.600 that's I think possible. 0:50:59.760 --> 0:51:00.719 But if we. 0:51:00.719 --> 0:51:04.640 Believe the letter came from Elizabeth, that's not what the 0:51:04.719 --> 0:51:05.520 letter says. 0:51:06.080 --> 0:51:06.840 She's the one. 0:51:07.160 --> 0:51:10.640 I mean, she's she's still saying he's really pining for 0:51:10.680 --> 0:51:15.279 her in that letter, But she's launching the plot, a 0:51:15.440 --> 0:51:20.000 very sophisticated plot, relatively speaking, you know, to get Arthur 0:51:20.040 --> 0:51:24.600 out away from the small town and to poison him 0:51:24.640 --> 0:51:28.000 with these tainted oysters. You know and then James can 0:51:28.040 --> 0:51:32.560 finally get what he's been asking for. So at that point, 0:51:32.600 --> 0:51:37.040 she really is the manipulator. I think, Elizabeth, there's probably 0:51:37.080 --> 0:51:40.239 a lot of truth in terms of how the relationship 0:51:40.320 --> 0:51:44.120 occurred in James feelings for her that she's expressing while 0:51:44.120 --> 0:51:45.000 she's testifying. 0:51:45.960 --> 0:51:47.440 But I'm not buying that. 0:51:48.200 --> 0:51:51.040 You know, James is the one that is, you know, 0:51:51.120 --> 0:51:55.080 behind Arthur's death, is the one that is coming up 0:51:55.120 --> 0:51:58.120 with that idea. I think she's the one. She's the 0:51:58.120 --> 0:52:01.640 one that's expressing she's feeling trapped because Arthur found out 0:52:01.719 --> 0:52:05.560 about her and James, and Arthur probably knew that those 0:52:05.600 --> 0:52:09.160 two had previous relationships before the marriage has occurred. 0:52:09.360 --> 0:52:12.879 Well, this is what Elizabeth said about exactly what you're 0:52:12.920 --> 0:52:16.799 talking about. She said, I thought he was crazy. I 0:52:16.880 --> 0:52:19.400 was not interested in doing that. I was not interested 0:52:19.480 --> 0:52:24.480 in leaving Arthur or killing him, especially until Arthur put 0:52:24.480 --> 0:52:26.960 his hands on me. And then that's when things changed 0:52:26.960 --> 0:52:29.399 for me. She said. James put it in my head 0:52:29.920 --> 0:52:33.160 a little bit that this was a possibility. Let's poison him. 0:52:33.400 --> 0:52:36.359 I'll leave my wife, He'll be dead. Whatever money Arthur 0:52:36.440 --> 0:52:40.120 has could be ours. She mentions in that letter she 0:52:40.520 --> 0:52:46.560 reiterates that Arthur saw her kissing James and Arthur freaked out. 0:52:46.719 --> 0:52:50.719 This happened in December. She said, he grew enraged, he 0:52:50.960 --> 0:52:53.120 put his hands on her, he shook her. He said 0:52:53.120 --> 0:52:55.560 exactly what she said. I'm not buying you any more clothes. 0:52:56.040 --> 0:52:58.040 You are never going to your father's again, and you 0:52:58.080 --> 0:53:00.960 are not going to see this guy again. And then 0:53:01.360 --> 0:53:04.960 that's when she sends this letter, just saying I can't 0:53:04.960 --> 0:53:06.239 deal with it. I'm not gonna be able to live 0:53:06.320 --> 0:53:09.600 the next forty years with this guy. And she's pregnant 0:53:09.800 --> 0:53:12.520 and I don't know yet, but of course we're suspecting 0:53:12.560 --> 0:53:14.799 that she's probably not having sex with Arthur. She's having 0:53:14.840 --> 0:53:18.880 sex with James though, so she is feeling trapped. So 0:53:19.200 --> 0:53:22.680 you know, she saw James in January and he had 0:53:22.719 --> 0:53:25.600 not gotten this letter because of this whole like mumbling 0:53:25.640 --> 0:53:29.160 mix up thing that happened. But she said he's the 0:53:29.200 --> 0:53:34.920 one who said, let's spike Arthur's coffee with Arsenic. So 0:53:35.120 --> 0:53:37.720 again he comes back with even though there's this letter 0:53:37.760 --> 0:53:41.000 that's got her plan in it, he's kind of insinuating 0:53:41.080 --> 0:53:42.800 this all sounds like it's going to take too long. 0:53:42.880 --> 0:53:44.719 Why don't you just get arsenic and put it in 0:53:44.760 --> 0:53:45.520 his coffee. 0:53:45.640 --> 0:53:49.200 Well, you know, fundamentally, a crime has occurred and the 0:53:49.200 --> 0:53:53.839 crime resulted in Arthur's death. That's a homicide by poisoning. 0:53:54.080 --> 0:53:57.879 So it really comes down to in the investigation, who 0:53:57.960 --> 0:54:02.040 is the one providing Arthur the arsenic? Who is the one, 0:54:02.080 --> 0:54:03.640 whether it be in his coffee, whether it be in 0:54:03.680 --> 0:54:06.640 the kreama tartar, Who is the one that is doing that. 0:54:06.800 --> 0:54:10.439 It doesn't matter that a discussion occurred months before, even 0:54:10.480 --> 0:54:13.640 if James is the originator of the idea, if he's 0:54:13.680 --> 0:54:17.560 not the one that is actually dosing Arthur with the 0:54:18.280 --> 0:54:22.279 actual murder weapon, the arsenic, you know, he is not 0:54:22.400 --> 0:54:26.520 culpable for the murder. It's the person that is doing it. 0:54:26.600 --> 0:54:29.400 And so that's where we get into Okay, No, obviously 0:54:29.480 --> 0:54:33.520 Elizabeth is inside the house, she most certainly could do this. 0:54:34.000 --> 0:54:36.920 Does James have an alibi? Is do we have anybody 0:54:36.960 --> 0:54:41.360 putting James into a position to either be inside the 0:54:41.400 --> 0:54:45.440 house or to spike something of food stuff that ultimately 0:54:45.480 --> 0:54:48.560 makes its way into the house. You know, And then 0:54:48.719 --> 0:54:53.040 we're talking about, Okay, what is the culpability of the 0:54:53.080 --> 0:54:56.800 person who's providing let's say the kreama tartar that spiked 0:54:57.239 --> 0:55:00.880 versus the person who is actually giving the cream of tartar. 0:55:01.719 --> 0:55:04.640 And then if it's Arthur who is self consuming, you know, 0:55:04.719 --> 0:55:10.560 he goes in, then there's intelligence from inside the house 0:55:10.600 --> 0:55:13.080 to the person outside the house of this is what 0:55:13.640 --> 0:55:18.000 the victim always eats or always drinks. So now you 0:55:18.040 --> 0:55:21.319 could see from a distance how somebody like James could 0:55:21.320 --> 0:55:25.560 be culpable for the homicide because he is now exploiting 0:55:25.719 --> 0:55:29.080 that type of intel in order because he you know, 0:55:29.239 --> 0:55:34.440 just through that information, he is in essence dosing Arthur himself, 0:55:34.760 --> 0:55:35.920 even though it's from a distance. 0:55:35.960 --> 0:55:36.920 If that makes any. 0:55:36.760 --> 0:55:41.279 Sense, Yeah, absolutely, I think that you could believe, as 0:55:41.320 --> 0:55:44.480 a man in the eighteen hundred's, you know, sitting as 0:55:44.480 --> 0:55:48.319 a judger on a jury, that a woman could be 0:55:48.400 --> 0:55:50.920 manipulated by a man who is older than her, for sure. 0:55:51.560 --> 0:55:55.120 But the detail and how well she thought out that 0:55:55.440 --> 0:55:58.719 plan of taking him on a horseback and the whole oysters, 0:55:58.760 --> 0:56:02.360 I mean, she really thought out every detail. So you know, 0:56:02.440 --> 0:56:05.880 I am then leaning him a lot more towards she 0:56:06.040 --> 0:56:09.719 was manipulating James more than anything else. But let's continue. 0:56:09.880 --> 0:56:13.040 So she says, you know, I bought arsenic. He told 0:56:13.040 --> 0:56:16.759 me to. I mixed it into Arthur's coffee. It made 0:56:16.840 --> 0:56:19.000 him sick, but it didn't kill him. So that must 0:56:19.040 --> 0:56:22.040 have been the Friday into the Sunday when the doctor 0:56:22.080 --> 0:56:26.840 shows up, right. She said she tried again after the 0:56:26.920 --> 0:56:30.239 doctor left that Sunday and she put it in his 0:56:30.640 --> 0:56:34.160 chicken soup and he said it tasted great, and then 0:56:34.360 --> 0:56:35.839 he died the next day. 0:56:36.200 --> 0:56:36.919 So she is. 0:56:36.840 --> 0:56:39.680 Fully admitting this, which is what makes this case to 0:56:39.719 --> 0:56:43.640 me even more interesting. We don't know why she testified. 0:56:43.719 --> 0:56:46.279 She was not compelled or made to do it. There 0:56:46.280 --> 0:56:50.160 were some sources that said she did it because she 0:56:50.280 --> 0:56:52.360 was going to be promised sort of immunity later on. 0:56:52.480 --> 0:56:55.799 Because really people did think she was being manipulated, that 0:56:55.880 --> 0:56:59.960 it wasn't him. She had given birth, she was breast 0:57:00.080 --> 0:57:03.920 feeding on the stand, and this would have been really shocking. 0:57:03.960 --> 0:57:05.799 I mean, it would be shocking now, I think, but 0:57:05.960 --> 0:57:08.440 it was really shocking, and she was saying, I have 0:57:08.480 --> 0:57:10.600 to be able to do this. So then you think 0:57:10.640 --> 0:57:13.279 about that. Is that a level of manipulation? What is 0:57:13.320 --> 0:57:15.800 that doing to the people who are listening to this information. 0:57:16.320 --> 0:57:20.120 Yeah, to me, that's blatant manipulation in terms of trying 0:57:20.120 --> 0:57:22.240 to become more sympathetic to the. 0:57:22.280 --> 0:57:23.960 Jurors or to whoever. 0:57:24.040 --> 0:57:26.320 If this was just maybe a you know, you just 0:57:26.320 --> 0:57:30.000 have a judge a magistrate that's hearing the testimony. But 0:57:30.120 --> 0:57:34.040 in essence, here I am, you know now a single mother, 0:57:34.520 --> 0:57:36.960 you know, and I've got to take care of my baby. 0:57:37.840 --> 0:57:41.520 I couldn't imagine a judge actually allowing that to occur 0:57:42.120 --> 0:57:45.920 during session. But eighteen fifties and small little area out 0:57:45.920 --> 0:57:49.520 there in Ohio, who knows how their trials are run. 0:57:49.600 --> 0:57:56.240 But fundamentally, she is confessing to murdering Arthur on the stand. 0:57:56.640 --> 0:58:00.440 She's the one that is putting the arsenic in different 0:58:00.600 --> 0:58:03.240 things that Arthur is ingesting. So it's not just a 0:58:03.240 --> 0:58:05.360 one time thing. She does it in his coffee, she 0:58:05.400 --> 0:58:07.600 does it in his chicken noodle soup, you know. So 0:58:08.040 --> 0:58:11.000 that from my perspective, is cut and dry. You know, 0:58:11.080 --> 0:58:16.160 she murdered Arthur. Now, all this talk about the relationship, 0:58:16.320 --> 0:58:20.360 you know, you've got from Elizabeth's perspective in one of 0:58:20.440 --> 0:58:24.160 the things I wanted to address, I don't disbelieve her 0:58:24.240 --> 0:58:27.160 in terms of Arthur got physical with her after finding 0:58:27.200 --> 0:58:31.520 out about James, right, you know, but does that that's 0:58:31.520 --> 0:58:34.400 not a get out of jail free card in terms 0:58:34.480 --> 0:58:40.480 of this type of homicide, because she's now plotting, She's 0:58:40.520 --> 0:58:43.480 sending the letter with a very detailed plot. She's now 0:58:43.680 --> 0:58:48.440 putting arsenic and multiple food stuff that ultimately kills kills Arthur. 0:58:49.040 --> 0:58:53.000 So standalone, you know she is responsible for murder. The 0:58:53.120 --> 0:58:56.120 reason she murders Arthur could come into play in terms 0:58:56.160 --> 0:59:01.600 of assessing kind of the sentencing you will you know, 0:59:01.760 --> 0:59:05.760 and where the crime charge is. I don't know what 0:59:06.120 --> 0:59:10.480 Ohio's murder statutes are. You know's this a second degree murder? 0:59:10.920 --> 0:59:13.520 Doesn't could You could even argue maybe there's a first 0:59:13.520 --> 0:59:16.920 degree aspect with all the malice, a forethought, you know, 0:59:16.960 --> 0:59:22.200 the pre planning. So from my perspective, she's absolutely responsible 0:59:22.200 --> 0:59:24.560 and it's confessing to the murder of Arthur. It just 0:59:24.640 --> 0:59:28.040 now comes into well, what is James' role in the crime. 0:59:28.880 --> 0:59:30.720 You know, it's one thing to be in a relationship 0:59:30.720 --> 0:59:35.280 and to discuss this, but does James provide the arsenic? 0:59:36.600 --> 0:59:38.960 You know, does he instruct her how to do it? 0:59:39.120 --> 0:59:42.440 You know, there's there. I think there's different levels of 0:59:42.480 --> 0:59:45.360 culpability that may or may not be there for James. 0:59:45.920 --> 0:59:48.920 Well, she admits she bought it herself, and one of 0:59:48.960 --> 0:59:51.720 them doesn't know what they're doing because she didn't give 0:59:51.760 --> 0:59:54.920 him enough to begin with. You know, so if James 0:59:54.920 --> 0:59:58.440 did kind of try to give her advice on how 0:59:58.480 --> 1:00:00.360 much to administer, heate and know what he was doing 1:00:00.400 --> 1:00:02.640 either because he didn't kill Arthur the first time. 1:00:03.000 --> 1:00:06.840 Yeah, I have a hard time, at least within the 1:00:06.960 --> 1:00:11.880 murder of Arthur, seeing how James has any significant culpability. 1:00:12.080 --> 1:00:15.760 Does he lie to the constable or to law enforcement? 1:00:16.600 --> 1:00:20.240 Does he have knowledge and fails to come forward, even 1:00:20.280 --> 1:00:24.280 though that's not necessarily a crime, But if he lied 1:00:24.880 --> 1:00:28.400 while being interviewed to a peace officer or to the court, 1:00:28.680 --> 1:00:31.960 if he testified, then yeah, maybe he could be charged 1:00:32.480 --> 1:00:35.760 with a type of crime. But the mere fact that 1:00:36.160 --> 1:00:40.520 he was aware that Elizabeth was possibly plotting against Arthur 1:00:40.560 --> 1:00:43.680 and had tried to involve him, he could have reported 1:00:43.680 --> 1:00:46.680 Elizabeth at that point. You know, she's in essence trying 1:00:46.720 --> 1:00:50.680 to hire a hitman, right, Yeah, what ended up happening 1:00:50.720 --> 1:00:51.200 to James. 1:00:51.720 --> 1:00:57.360 So here's what happens. James is never tried for Arthur's death. Okay, 1:00:57.520 --> 1:01:00.800 there's any evidence against him? Yeah, and you know, he 1:01:00.840 --> 1:01:03.840 had denied all of this to begin with, so we 1:01:03.920 --> 1:01:06.760 don't know what his role was. He has kept quiet. 1:01:06.840 --> 1:01:08.760 We don't know what happened to him after that that 1:01:08.880 --> 1:01:14.160 he has let go. After her testimony, she is arrested 1:01:14.520 --> 1:01:16.520 and they want to put her on trial for murder. 1:01:16.560 --> 1:01:18.080 I don't know if it was first degree. I can't 1:01:18.080 --> 1:01:19.760 imagine would be for maybe it would be first degree, 1:01:19.760 --> 1:01:22.520 I don't know. Let me kind of preface this by 1:01:22.600 --> 1:01:25.040 telling you what a reporter says, who was in that 1:01:25.320 --> 1:01:28.400 preliminary trial, and it was sort of the sentiment of 1:01:28.480 --> 1:01:31.320 everyone there because it was very clear to them that 1:01:31.560 --> 1:01:35.480 she was confessing when she was giving this testimony. He says. 1:01:35.640 --> 1:01:39.240 We have no desire to injure Missus Reagan to magnify 1:01:39.280 --> 1:01:43.000 her guilt or to lessen the mitigating circumstances in her case. 1:01:43.200 --> 1:01:45.640 On the other hand, we would gladly see her restored 1:01:45.680 --> 1:01:50.360 to innocence and happiness if it were possible eighteen fifty five, 1:01:50.920 --> 1:01:53.880 for the sake of her sex. We would rejoice to 1:01:53.920 --> 1:01:57.920 see the responsibility of her crime thrown upon man, if 1:01:58.000 --> 1:02:00.960 it could be done justly. It is more fitting, less 1:02:01.000 --> 1:02:05.960 shocking that man should commit such a monstrous crime. But 1:02:06.080 --> 1:02:09.520 Missus Reagan has placed it out of our power or 1:02:09.560 --> 1:02:13.080 the power of any man to injure her case. She 1:02:13.280 --> 1:02:16.800 is a self convicted murderer and nothing can save her 1:02:16.800 --> 1:02:20.200 from death. But the clemency of the governor her life 1:02:20.280 --> 1:02:23.080 may be saved, and we hope it will, but she 1:02:23.200 --> 1:02:27.360 can never be restored to society again. Now this is 1:02:27.520 --> 1:02:31.080 before she's charged with murder, but it will kind of 1:02:31.080 --> 1:02:35.040 give you an idea of the mindset of particularly the 1:02:35.120 --> 1:02:37.880 men in this case, who just don't want to do this. 1:02:38.200 --> 1:02:40.080 They do not this would have been a capital crime. 1:02:40.080 --> 1:02:42.160 Obviously she would have been executed. They don't want to 1:02:42.200 --> 1:02:44.360 do this. Nobody wants to do this. And then she's 1:02:44.400 --> 1:02:47.320 been breastfeeding on the stand for part of her testimony. 1:02:47.880 --> 1:02:51.800 She most certainly is a sympathetic defendant. You know, young, 1:02:51.960 --> 1:02:56.680 young female, feeling trapped, possibly being abused. You know how 1:02:56.920 --> 1:03:01.520 they viewed the affair eighteen fifth you know that probably 1:03:01.760 --> 1:03:06.280 was something that really was a mark against both her 1:03:06.440 --> 1:03:11.600 and James. I can see twenty two year old, that's 1:03:11.640 --> 1:03:13.080 how old she was, right, twenty. 1:03:12.800 --> 1:03:14.439 Two at the time. 1:03:14.600 --> 1:03:16.480 You know, I've got a daughter that's ten years older 1:03:16.520 --> 1:03:19.080 than that, but I know, you know what she was 1:03:19.160 --> 1:03:21.240 like when she was twenty two. And I've got a 1:03:21.320 --> 1:03:24.720 daughter that's, you know, senior in high school. You know, 1:03:24.920 --> 1:03:27.240 I mean this this is such a young age. 1:03:27.720 --> 1:03:27.920 You know. 1:03:28.400 --> 1:03:31.120 In some ways you can say this is a bad 1:03:31.400 --> 1:03:34.680 decision and you feels sorry that she. I mean, you 1:03:34.720 --> 1:03:38.520 feel sorry for Arthur. He lost his life. But she's 1:03:38.600 --> 1:03:42.080 just showing such poor judgment in terms of how to 1:03:42.200 --> 1:03:45.480 get out of what she feels trapped in. Would there 1:03:45.520 --> 1:03:49.680 have been other avenues that she could have taken where 1:03:49.680 --> 1:03:52.760 she doesn't resort to murder, you know, And that's that's 1:03:52.800 --> 1:03:58.240 the big thing. My surprise is the capital punishment side 1:03:58.480 --> 1:04:02.760 for this case. And maybe it's just speaking to the 1:04:02.800 --> 1:04:08.440 eighteen fifties, you know, it seems like that is a 1:04:09.040 --> 1:04:15.160 kind of excessive punishment, a death penalty for this particular case, 1:04:15.280 --> 1:04:16.800 even though it is a murder case. 1:04:17.480 --> 1:04:19.920 Yeah, I understand that. I mean, this would be a 1:04:19.960 --> 1:04:23.680 time period though, where if you're an habitual thief, they 1:04:23.680 --> 1:04:26.720 would have put you to death. Also, this was pretty extreme. 1:04:27.160 --> 1:04:30.200 Let me tell you what happens all of this, Paul 1:04:30.400 --> 1:04:33.200 is to say that she is never put on trial 1:04:33.240 --> 1:04:35.320 for murder. I don't know if this is the district 1:04:35.320 --> 1:04:39.640 attorney or the sentiment in general that they will not 1:04:39.880 --> 1:04:42.960 convict a woman and sentence her to death, but that 1:04:43.000 --> 1:04:46.360 would have been the only option, and nobody wanted to 1:04:46.400 --> 1:04:48.600 do it. I think there was a feeling that she 1:04:48.680 --> 1:04:52.680 was manipulated by an older man, that potentially Arthur had 1:04:52.680 --> 1:04:57.080 been abusive. She had a baby in her arms, she 1:04:57.240 --> 1:05:01.680 was young, so she is not convicted. She has let go. 1:05:02.160 --> 1:05:07.520 She eventually leaves Piquat and she goes to Indianapolis, and 1:05:07.640 --> 1:05:10.680 that newspapers say that at one point an old friend 1:05:10.920 --> 1:05:15.080 was leaving a church and Elizabeth was there working at 1:05:15.120 --> 1:05:18.800 the church in Indianapolis and went on presumably to live, 1:05:19.120 --> 1:05:22.200 you know, a hopefully quiet life, but that's what ended 1:05:22.280 --> 1:05:24.360 up happening. They both get out of it, and we 1:05:24.440 --> 1:05:27.440 have no We just know somebody has poisoned Arthur Reagan. 1:05:27.760 --> 1:05:30.240 And nobody's been held responsible ever for this case. 1:05:30.360 --> 1:05:33.960 Right, but you have you have Elizabeth confessing to doing 1:05:34.000 --> 1:05:34.680 the poisoning. 1:05:35.040 --> 1:05:37.120 Yeah, the DA does have discretion. 1:05:37.840 --> 1:05:40.480 However, you know, when you when you were talking about 1:05:40.560 --> 1:05:44.680 even with these you know, Elizabeth talking about the potential abuse, 1:05:45.200 --> 1:05:48.520 the idea that she's being manipulated by an older man, 1:05:48.680 --> 1:05:50.560 thirty two year olds, These are what I would call 1:05:50.560 --> 1:05:57.080 her mitigating circumstances, and those can be taken into account 1:05:57.200 --> 1:06:01.080 by the district attorney in terms of how is she 1:06:01.160 --> 1:06:04.640 going to be charged, and the judge can also take 1:06:04.680 --> 1:06:09.040 those mitigating circumstances in terms of the penalty. I think 1:06:09.080 --> 1:06:12.640 my primary problem is is that she had somebody commit murder, 1:06:12.680 --> 1:06:17.360 admits the committing murder, and they're not held responsible. I 1:06:17.400 --> 1:06:22.000 think that the mitigating circumstances could have been used to 1:06:22.040 --> 1:06:26.640 potentially reduce what Elizabeth was convicted of and how long 1:06:26.840 --> 1:06:30.360 her sentence would have been, but I still think she 1:06:30.480 --> 1:06:34.360 needs to be held responsible. That's kind of the position 1:06:34.720 --> 1:06:38.200 where I would come in. This wasn't a self defense 1:06:38.360 --> 1:06:42.360 scenario that sometimes you do see with women that are 1:06:42.360 --> 1:06:44.800 being abused by men, and we don't. It doesn't sound 1:06:44.880 --> 1:06:48.120 like it got to that level. She is able to 1:06:48.360 --> 1:06:52.080 take her time and poison Arthur and kill them in 1:06:52.120 --> 1:06:55.520 a very slow, painful way, even though she's young and 1:06:55.760 --> 1:06:58.920 there's those mitigating circumstances. I do feel that she should 1:06:58.920 --> 1:07:03.120 have at least been responsible, you know, to a point, for. 1:07:03.120 --> 1:07:06.680 Sure, I agree, but I will point this little bit 1:07:06.760 --> 1:07:09.320 out so you know, we've done stories before about women 1:07:09.320 --> 1:07:12.600 who feel trapped because they're pregnant by their boyfriends who 1:07:12.600 --> 1:07:15.600 they're having an affair with. So if she is pregnant 1:07:15.680 --> 1:07:18.680 in December or January is what they keep pointing to, 1:07:18.720 --> 1:07:23.320 saying January by month four, I'm assuming that Arthur would 1:07:23.360 --> 1:07:26.680 have started to see signs of this pregnancy by April 1:07:26.920 --> 1:07:30.400 and they're not having sex. I'm presuming I could be wrong. 1:07:30.480 --> 1:07:33.200 Of course there could be obviously for sex. But I 1:07:33.320 --> 1:07:35.480 just wonder if there was like this ticking clock with 1:07:35.520 --> 1:07:39.000 the pregnancy she doesn't mention that. That would not be 1:07:39.040 --> 1:07:42.160 a good thing for her to mention, obviously, But that's 1:07:42.240 --> 1:07:43.919 what I was thinking in my head this whole time, 1:07:44.040 --> 1:07:46.680 is she's pregnant, He's going to know it's not his. 1:07:47.240 --> 1:07:48.920 She's going to get bigger and bigger, and how much 1:07:48.960 --> 1:07:51.560 longer can she hold out on this? And then it 1:07:51.600 --> 1:07:54.480 would have just been fireworks in that small community in Ohio. 1:07:54.560 --> 1:07:56.040 It would have been awful for her. 1:07:56.320 --> 1:07:56.520 Yep. 1:07:56.680 --> 1:08:01.360 So yes to mitigating circumstances, no to execute. Yes to 1:08:02.040 --> 1:08:05.080 I guess James leaving and getting out of this. But 1:08:05.240 --> 1:08:07.640 you know, of course, we think James is looped in 1:08:07.680 --> 1:08:10.480 here somehow, some way, and I wonder what happened with 1:08:10.520 --> 1:08:12.960 his wife and his kids. If she just said, Okay, 1:08:13.160 --> 1:08:14.439 I'm out of this, that's it. 1:08:14.600 --> 1:08:17.400 But in the eighteen fifties, it's that grounds for divorce. 1:08:18.000 --> 1:08:19.879 It was like an act of God to get a divorce. 1:08:19.920 --> 1:08:22.040 I mean you had to go to the state legislature 1:08:22.080 --> 1:08:24.320 to get a divorce in that time period. I know 1:08:24.400 --> 1:08:26.760 it was really it was really difficult. So you have 1:08:26.800 --> 1:08:29.439 worked so extraordinarily hard that I think you do need 1:08:29.560 --> 1:08:31.960 a couple of weeks off. So we are on a 1:08:32.080 --> 1:08:35.000 hiatus week next week, are we? I mean, listen, you 1:08:35.040 --> 1:08:37.000 can come back next week. I'm not going to be here, 1:08:37.080 --> 1:08:40.280 but I can leave the fireplace on in the cottage. 1:08:41.320 --> 1:08:44.599 And I can pine for you, hoping that you will see. 1:08:44.640 --> 1:08:47.840 You could step into your cottage there you could just. 1:08:47.880 --> 1:08:49.720 Make I know, you could fulfill some kind of a 1:08:49.800 --> 1:08:51.840 dream for us to switch roles and you can tell 1:08:51.840 --> 1:08:54.800 me a story and I can pipe in with different information. 1:08:57.200 --> 1:09:00.920 There's no way, yeah, I could not hold a candle 1:09:00.960 --> 1:09:01.880 to your storytelling. 1:09:02.160 --> 1:09:04.080 So Paul, Paul, thank you. 1:09:04.360 --> 1:09:04.679 Well. 1:09:04.800 --> 1:09:07.280 I will see you in two weeks. We'll come back 1:09:07.280 --> 1:09:09.920 with the case in a completely different era, because I 1:09:09.920 --> 1:09:12.760 need a break already from the eighteen fifties. 1:09:12.360 --> 1:09:15.400 For sure, Okay, sounds good. Well, you take care of 1:09:15.479 --> 1:09:17.120 yourself and we'll see in a few weeks. 1:09:17.479 --> 1:09:19.799 Okay. 1:09:22.280 --> 1:09:24.880 This has been an exactly right production for. 1:09:24.880 --> 1:09:28.360 Our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com 1:09:28.360 --> 1:09:30.200 slash Buried Bones sources. 1:09:30.400 --> 1:09:32.760 Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi. 1:09:33.040 --> 1:09:37.280 Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson. 1:09:37.560 --> 1:09:39.840 Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday. 1:09:40.120 --> 1:09:42.400 Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 1:09:42.640 --> 1:09:44.679 Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 1:09:44.960 --> 1:09:49.080 Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer. 1:09:49.360 --> 1:09:52.720 You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 1:09:52.840 --> 1:09:54.000 Buried Bones pod. 1:09:54.439 --> 1:09:57.000 Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded 1:09:57.000 --> 1:09:59.040 Age story of murder and the race to decode the 1:09:59.040 --> 1:10:01.000 criminal mind, is available. 1:10:00.560 --> 1:10:04.839 Now, and Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving 1:10:04.880 --> 1:10:07.479 America's Cold Cases is also available now. 1:10:07.840 --> 1:10:11.560 Listen to Varied Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 1:10:11.640 --> 1:10:13.560 or wherever you get your podcasts.