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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 4: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 4: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing great. How about you?

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Speaker 3: I'm doing good. What's been going on with you?

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Speaker 2: Well, I've been watching a lot of true crime?

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Speaker 4: Oh good guy.

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Speaker 2: I probably need another project, you know. I mean, the

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Speaker 2: book has been out, Listener's all val has been out,

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Speaker 2: and the book tour stuff is over, and I know

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Speaker 2: you have endless book tours. I do not, so now

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Speaker 2: I'm you know, I've been writing my first mystery thriller.

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Speaker 2: I've been doing different things, but I have an extraordinary

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Speaker 2: amount of time to watch true crime, and I know

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Speaker 2: this is not something that you really do, right, No.

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Speaker 4: No, I don't.

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Speaker 2: It's a hard note.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm obviously very well planted in the true crime space.

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Speaker 3: I don't consume the content, rarely consume the content.

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Speaker 2: Well, I had a question. So I've mentioned this course before.

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Speaker 2: I teach a true crime podcast course at the University

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Speaker 2: of Texas. It's very popular. I have I think probably

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Speaker 2: about two hundred and thirty students each semester. You know,

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Speaker 2: we talk about cases that are meaningful to them, that

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Speaker 2: are meaningful to me. There is a generational divide for

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Speaker 2: sure about the cases that my students, who are somewhere

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Speaker 2: between eighteen and twenty two, what they think are sort

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Speaker 2: of these groundbreaking everybody knows everything about them, binge worthy

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Speaker 2: type of crimes. And then my generation. So I want

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Speaker 2: to ask you about what you feel like from your generation,

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Speaker 2: you know, growing up, what was that case that really

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Speaker 2: sort of made you either think about, you know, criminal

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Speaker 2: investigation or think about something that was you had never

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Speaker 2: heard of before. And I'd love to make a joke

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Speaker 2: about maybe Charles Manson, but I'm not going to because

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Speaker 2: I think it's probably going to be a little more

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Speaker 2: modern than that. Maybe not, though I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Now, i'd say, you know, if you're talking about you know,

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Speaker 3: when I was growing up, I did not pay attention

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Speaker 3: to any of the crime cases out there, you know.

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Speaker 3: I think, of course, you know, the story of me

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Speaker 3: glomming on to getting into the field I got into

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Speaker 3: was because of a TV show, Quincy, But I'm not remembering,

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Speaker 3: you know, paying attention to the newspaper headlines or listening

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Speaker 3: to the radio. I would say the first true crime

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Speaker 3: case that I really dug into was David Carpenter. He

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Speaker 3: was the trail side killer out there on Mount tamil Pious.

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Speaker 3: And I remember I had already started working for the

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Speaker 3: Sheriff's office, but as a toxicologist, and I'm reading this

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Speaker 3: book about the serial killer, and it's in the Bay Area,

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Speaker 3: and he is going to restaurants in places where I

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Speaker 3: knew where they were at. I was just now reading

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Speaker 3: a book, you know, many years after he had actually

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Speaker 3: gone to these restaurants, and so I became fascinated, going, Wow,

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Speaker 3: this is real, you know. And that was sort of

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Speaker 3: what I would say really catapulted me into doing a

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Speaker 3: deeper dive into true crime, if you will, but I

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Speaker 3: was really focused on serial predators. I wasn't really paying

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Speaker 3: attention to other types of cases.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand that. I think when I was younger,

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Speaker 2: I did pay attention to a lot of true crime stuff.

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Speaker 2: One was the yogurt Chop murders because I was their

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Speaker 2: age when these four girls were murdered and it's still

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Speaker 2: an unsolved case. I remember Columbine feeling shaken to my

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Speaker 2: bones that something like that would have happened, because again

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Speaker 2: that's my time period. And then John Benay, I had

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Speaker 2: never heard of anything like that happening before.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, And of course I remember I had

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Speaker 3: not heard of the yogurt chop murders until I got

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Speaker 3: into the true crime space.

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Speaker 4: But I've now familiar.

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Speaker 3: I've talked to people who are working on that case

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Speaker 3: within an official capacity. But of course, John Binney Ramsey,

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Speaker 3: I remember that hitting the headlines and Columbine, which I

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Speaker 3: don't know if there were if there was a school

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Speaker 3: shooting prior to that, but that was the one case

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Speaker 3: that really, you know, brought to public awareness, you know,

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Speaker 3: the school shooter. And unfortunately, you know, there's been a

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Speaker 3: rash of copycats, you know, ever since that's just it.

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Speaker 3: It's like a domino effect, you know, one copying the other.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: For where I was at, I would say sort of

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Speaker 3: the watershed case was poly Class, and that was a

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Speaker 3: case I was with the Sheriff's office.

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Speaker 4: But the the idea.

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Speaker 3: That an offender, you know, this Richard Allen Davis, who

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Speaker 3: you know basically had been in and out of prison

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Speaker 3: his entire life, was able to go inside a house

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Speaker 3: where this little girl was at an abduct her while

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Speaker 3: her parents were still inside that house. And then some

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Speaker 3: of the communication problems between law enforcement agencies. Possibly I

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Speaker 3: wouldn't say they could have saved her, but they could

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Speaker 3: have caught him sooner, if you know, other agencies were

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Speaker 3: aware that there was a subducted girl. But that was

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Speaker 3: a big case out sort of like a man in

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Speaker 3: Texas or you know, yogurt shot murders is something that

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Speaker 3: was in that geosphere, and poly Class was one of

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Speaker 3: the notable ones early on in my career out there

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Speaker 3: in the Bay Area.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think when I talk to my students

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Speaker 2: and I say, what are the cases that just haunt

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Speaker 2: you guys? I mean, it's no surprise they're in college.

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Speaker 2: They're saying Gabby Patito, and they're saying the Idaho for

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Speaker 2: the college students who were murdered in Idaho. And it

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Speaker 2: makes sense because it's it's there, it's their peers, that

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Speaker 2: group influencers, you know, young people who were on campus

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Speaker 2: feeling vulnerable. And so it was just interesting because they

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Speaker 2: had never heard of one of the cases. Maybe it

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Speaker 2: was called Peterson that I brought up. They were going, what,

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Speaker 2: so everybody has a has a different you know, lens

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Speaker 2: of which they look through true crime.

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Speaker 3: Well, and I think if the case is happening while

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Speaker 3: you are paying attention to that type of content, you're

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Speaker 3: going to be invested in it. And when when you

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Speaker 3: and I were growing up, we didn't have the pervasiveness

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Speaker 3: of information on the cases like everybody does today. You know,

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Speaker 3: you might hear you'd read it in the newspaper, or

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Speaker 3: you'd see it on the news.

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Speaker 4: That was it.

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Speaker 3: You couldn't go online to find out more information about

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Speaker 3: the case or to track the case. As you know,

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Speaker 3: different aspects developed and became newsworthy, whereas today most certainly

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Speaker 3: like with Idaho, you know, you can follow the trial

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Speaker 3: you know online, you know, so it's it's a very

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Speaker 3: different environment than when we grew up, for sure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and I think so much more misinformation that

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Speaker 2: you know, as our show goes along over the years,

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Speaker 2: I'm definitely going to want to start dipping into the

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Speaker 2: rights and wrongs that happened in true crime, in the

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Speaker 2: true crime community as far as you know polyclass. I

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Speaker 2: just read an article it's a little bit older, that

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Speaker 2: was written by her sister in the New York Times

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Speaker 2: that just talked about the retraumatizing of her family every

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Speaker 2: time something happens. They've never approved of any you know,

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Speaker 2: program that has gone on about polyclass and just saying

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Speaker 2: this is it just over and over again for decades.

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Speaker 2: This has been going on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and I've seen that firsthand. We had

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Speaker 3: another case out in the Bay Area of Zianna, fairchild

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Speaker 3: girl abducted and ultimately killed out of a leo, and

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Speaker 3: I became.

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Speaker 4: Friends with her mom.

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Speaker 3: Biologically it's her great aunt, Stephanie Cahliculu, but in essence,

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Speaker 3: Stephanie's the one that raised Theanna, and I've seen Stephanie

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Speaker 3: go through those same types of waves of being traumatized.

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Speaker 3: Because of the public attention, you know, something becomes newsworthy

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Speaker 3: and now she's thrust in front of the cameras again.

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Speaker 3: And early on she was doing it because first she

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Speaker 3: was trying to find her daughter, and then once it

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Speaker 3: became obvious when Xianna Skull was found that she wasn't

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Speaker 3: going to get her daughter back, then it was we

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Speaker 3: need to get the killer. And that's when I got involved.

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Speaker 4: In that case.

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Speaker 3: But since then, there's been multiple reasons for Stephanie to

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Speaker 3: have been put out there, and she really, you know,

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Speaker 3: struggles with that. And I actually did present Zianna's case

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Speaker 3: in Mitzi Sanchez, which is also a corresponding case out

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Speaker 3: there at Crime Con And before I did that, I

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Speaker 3: talked to Stephanie. I got her permission to make sure

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Speaker 3: that was something that she was okay with.

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Speaker 2: So when you and I talk about these cases that

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Speaker 2: really catch people's attention and then sort of live in infamy,

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Speaker 2: there are definitely cases that you and I talk about

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Speaker 2: that I think have been forgotten in history. But at

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Speaker 2: that time period, we're just so infamous. They can't all

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Speaker 2: be Lizzie Borden's and Jack the Rippers, and so you know,

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Speaker 2: that's our goal is to bring these stories back to

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Speaker 2: see what we can learn.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think, you know, when you think about it, it's,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's very much like celebrities. You think about

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Speaker 3: some of these individuals that you know, Hollywood, you know,

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Speaker 3: and they were so famous, let's say back in the

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Speaker 3: nineteen twenties. M there's a few exceptions, but many of

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Speaker 3: them have just kind of faded because now new generations

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Speaker 3: the celebrities have occurred, and the new generations of consumers

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Speaker 3: are paying attention to that. And so I think the

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Speaker 3: same thing happens, you know, within the crime stories. You know,

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Speaker 3: of course, a huge case O. J. Simpson, you know,

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Speaker 3: for our generation, you know, that was momentous in terms

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Speaker 3: of so many for so many reasons. But I imagine

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Speaker 3: a lot of the kids that you are teaching, they

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Speaker 3: may have heard of the case, but it probably doesn't

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Speaker 3: resonate the same way.

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Speaker 2: I think that my students when we've talked about OJ Simpson,

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Speaker 2: they understand the facts of the case, they understand the

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Speaker 2: controversy around it. They had heard of Marcia Clark. I

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Speaker 2: don't think they understand the social context around why it

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Speaker 2: was so momentous, you know, around I racial inequalities and

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Speaker 2: everything was so polarizing. I don't remember a case not

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Speaker 2: even Manson that was as polarizing, particularly along you know,

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Speaker 2: racial lines, as OJ Simpson. So when I talk about that,

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Speaker 2: they just kind of look at me like what I

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Speaker 2: just thought? It was this you know, ex football Heisman

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Speaker 2: Trophy winner who killed his ex wife and her you

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Speaker 2: know friend, And it's so much deeper than that, and

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Speaker 2: I think sometimes you just have to live through it

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Speaker 2: to understand the impact.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: You know, you have a celebrity that many people looked

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Speaker 3: up to as a hero. You know, he had a

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Speaker 3: very engaging personality. You know, I know I was stunned,

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Speaker 3: you know when that case happened, when that crime happened,

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Speaker 3: And so there's I think with that type of offender,

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Speaker 3: you get to where, you know, you have a personal

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Speaker 3: attachment to that celebrity. And to be frank, you know,

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Speaker 3: O J. Simpson killed Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman, I

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Speaker 3: don't want to dance around that.

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Speaker 2: Well, now, let's talk about a case that I found

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Speaker 2: really interesting because while it was not polarizing along racial lines,

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Speaker 2: it is polarizing around gender. And we are going really

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Speaker 2: far back eighteen fifties and it's I think been a

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Speaker 2: while since we've dipped our tone into something this far back,

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Speaker 2: but I think you'll find this case really interesting. It

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Speaker 2: seems simple sort of from the beginning, but then it

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Speaker 2: gets more complicated as we move along. So let's go

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Speaker 2: ahead and set the scene. So this story takes place

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Speaker 2: in the mid eighteen fifties in Miami County, Ohio, which

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Speaker 2: is between the towns of Piqua and Colesville. I don't

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Speaker 2: know how large these places are now, but then they

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Speaker 2: were small. Piqua is about thirty miles north of Dayton

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Speaker 2: and as a population of about three thy three hundred

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Speaker 2: at the time. Colesville is a rural community. It's about

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Speaker 2: ten miles south of Piquas. So we've got two different

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Speaker 2: places that we're talking about.

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Speaker 3: Here.

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Speaker 2: We are in April, April third, eighteen fifty five. It's

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Speaker 2: a Tuesday, and the main person at the middle of

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Speaker 2: this story is a guy named Arthur Reagan. He is very, very,

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Speaker 2: very sick. He is suffering from severe stomach illness. And

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Speaker 2: his physician, who is a guy named doctor Brownell, says

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Speaker 2: that Arthur has all the symptoms of gastritis or stomach

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Speaker 2: inflammation with vomiting. If we're talking about that now and

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Speaker 2: it's something that you've ingested, leave off the poison because

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Speaker 2: I know that'll be your go to. Is there anything

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Speaker 2: is it gastritis or what he's experiencing? Is that Could

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Speaker 2: that be food poisoning? Could that be taking the wrong

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Speaker 2: medicine and having a bad interaction. What would that be

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Speaker 2: in today's terms?

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Speaker 4: I think all of the above. You know.

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Speaker 3: The first thing that came to my mind would would

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Speaker 3: be like a food poisoning. You know, we've all had that.

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Speaker 3: You know that oftentimes is some sort of nasty bacteria

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Speaker 3: you know, you know, got out of control on the food.

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Speaker 3: But of course you could have all sorts of different

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Speaker 3: substances that aren't necessarily intended to be poisons, but they

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Speaker 3: have they have irritating properties.

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Speaker 2: So I was wondering about milk pasteurization. Is there a risk?

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Speaker 2: I know there's a risk for pregnant women if you

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Speaker 2: are having cheese or milk that's not pasteurized. Now And

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Speaker 2: why is that?

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Speaker 3: Well, the pasturization process is in essence to eliminate the

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Speaker 3: bacteria that are present during the milking process kind of

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Speaker 3: contaminates the milk, and so they bring the temperature of

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Speaker 3: the milk up to a certain level to kill the

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Speaker 3: the microorganisms.

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Speaker 4: You know to a point.

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Speaker 3: You know, of course, after a period of time, milk

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Speaker 3: will still go bad, but the pasturization gives a logger

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Speaker 3: shelf life. So unpasteurized milk potentially has a greater likelihood

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Speaker 3: of having a microorganism that your body isn't going to like.

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Speaker 2: So this story is in eighteen fifty five, and I

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Speaker 2: was just thinking about this. In eighteen sixty two is

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Speaker 2: when Louis Pastor came up with the germ theory, which

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Speaker 2: is just what you're saying. You know, the boiling and milk,

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Speaker 2: bringing it to a high temperature actually can kill the

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Speaker 2: bacteria in the yeast because before there were these contaminations

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Speaker 2: that were coming out, like tuberculosis. So I was thinking

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Speaker 2: that when he was complaining to his doctor about stomach pains.

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Speaker 2: Right now, he's sort of on a farm in between cities,

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Speaker 2: and what he could be eating that is not nefarious

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Speaker 2: at this.

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Speaker 3: Point, no, not at all. And you know, you think

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Speaker 3: it's not necessarily something that he purposely ingested. You know,

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Speaker 3: he could have, you know, working on the farm. You know,

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Speaker 3: imagine the hygiene. How many times he's putting his his fingers,

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Speaker 3: you know, into his mouth or something like that, and

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Speaker 3: how dirty his hands could be. You know, contaminate it.

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Speaker 3: Let's not to be too too graphic, but contaminate it

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Speaker 3: like with animal fecal matter, you know, and of course

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Speaker 3: the bacteria that are present there, or just the meats

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Speaker 3: that they're eating. Now you get into the food side

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Speaker 3: and you know potential contamination with you know, microorganisms that

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Speaker 3: the body doesn't like.

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Speaker 2: Now, I'd like you to come up with a new

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Speaker 2: list of possible natural contaminations based on what Arthur does

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Speaker 2: for a living. And there might not be any there there. Well,

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you. Have you heard of a craftsman called

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Speaker 2: a cooper? No, so it seems like a present tense

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Speaker 2: term actually from when I looked at it, But a

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Speaker 2: cooper in the eighteen hundreds, with someone who makes tubs

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Speaker 2: and vats and wooden barrels that could be used for

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Speaker 2: wine making. And I first thought when I thought about

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Speaker 2: his symptoms, I had done a story on a man

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Speaker 2: who had asthma and was working, you know, with spraying

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Speaker 2: all kinds of paint on, spraying paint on cars, and

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Speaker 2: sometimes you wouldn't wear a mask, and it just sounded awful.

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Speaker 2: So I was wondering if any of those proses that

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Speaker 2: you would do to make those even in the eighteen hundreds,

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Speaker 2: they must have involved some kind of chemical, right, I

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Speaker 2: would think.

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Speaker 3: You know, I imagine that there's some sort of sealant that

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Speaker 3: they're using, and so that'd be my first guess. Tubs

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Speaker 3: in vats, you know, at least with what I am

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Speaker 3: picturing from this time frame, they're probably having to shape

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Speaker 3: you know, form wood, you know, steam it form it

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Speaker 3: and somehow get it bound together. And there's mechanical ways

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Speaker 3: to bind it together so the planks you know, stay

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Speaker 3: in place. But if there it's going to be water tight,

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Speaker 3: then I think that there's going to be some sort

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Speaker 3: of seal it, whether it's a tar based sealant or

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Speaker 3: you know they using you know, rubber, you know selant,

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Speaker 3: you know, you know, more of a natural type of thing.

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Speaker 3: But it also could be something from crude oil, you know,

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Speaker 3: that they've processed out, just like vacoline, you know, petrol, adam,

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Speaker 3: jelly you know, is something that comes ultimately from crude

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Speaker 3: you know, So is there something that they are they're

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Speaker 3: a waxy substance that they get from crude oil, and

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Speaker 3: then of course there could potentially be a variety of

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Speaker 3: whether it be mineral based toxins to even organic benzene

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Speaker 3: for example, could be present.

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Speaker 2: I'll just tell you sort of what was used commonly,

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Speaker 2: and this does not mean this is what Arthur was doing.

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Speaker 2: But these wooden hubs were sort of temporary tubs. They

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Speaker 2: basically looked like barrels or sometimes they were like water troughs,

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Speaker 2: so you would dunk yourself in there. So they were

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Speaker 2: heavy wood, and then they would use iron bands to

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Speaker 2: reinforce the wooden vertical parts of it, and then sometimes

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Speaker 2: they had a linen cloth to protect the bather from

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Speaker 2: getting a little splinter in your bum. So essentially you

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Speaker 2: know the iron bands and you're right. There must have

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Speaker 2: also been a seilant in there somewhere, so we don't

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Speaker 2: really know if that contributes to it. I'm just saying

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Speaker 2: this is something that he does that we have to

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Speaker 2: look at too. So Arthur first became sick on Friday.

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Speaker 2: So when he gets really really sick too, is the

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Speaker 2: following Tuesday. So I'll give you kind of the chronology,

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Speaker 2: so he can becomes sick on Friday, he gets better

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Speaker 2: when doctor Brunelle takes care of him on Sunday. We

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Speaker 2: have had several cases of a doctor coming to the

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Speaker 2: aid of someone and they turn out to be the killer.

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Speaker 2: This is still a true crime show, so you can

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Speaker 2: imagine this is not a simple illness. And I'm not

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Speaker 2: saying the doctor is a suspect, but you do have

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Speaker 2: that access. You have somebody there and he's administering medicine.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Burnelle leaves and then Monday back to being sick again,

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Speaker 2: and it doesn't seem like he's recovering. So he got

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Speaker 2: better than he got worse. Floating around and trying to

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Speaker 2: take care of Arthur is his wife, who is twenty

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Speaker 2: two years old. She is a church going woman. Her

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Speaker 2: name is Jane, but everybody calls her Elizabeth Reagan. She's

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Speaker 2: pregnant at the time. She talks to the doctor and

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Speaker 2: she says that she thinks that Arthur has purposely poisoned himself, okay,

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Speaker 2: to make himself sick and then potentially take his own life.

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Speaker 2: She doesn't give a great explanation for this, that he's

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Speaker 2: been troubled, he's lived a hard life. This is probably

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Speaker 2: the tenth story that I've done where fifty percent turn

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Speaker 2: out to be someone who has intentionally poisoned themselves. In

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Speaker 2: fifty percent. It's the spouse saying, yeah, he's this and that,

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Speaker 2: and then it turns out that they're poisoning them.

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Speaker 3: Is she expressing that he has any suicidal ideas, you know,

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Speaker 3: is there a life insurance policy, et cetera. You know,

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Speaker 3: sometimes people will commit suicide, but they need to make

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Speaker 3: it look like a homicide in order for these policies

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Speaker 3: to actually be dispersed. Yeah, and you know, so that's

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Speaker 3: you know, part of what I would be looking at

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Speaker 3: on this front.

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Speaker 4: You know, with Arthur.

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Speaker 2: So, Arthur does not have a life insurance policy that

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Speaker 2: I can find. He is not particularly wealthy. I don't

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Speaker 2: have his exact age, but it looks quite a bit older.

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Speaker 2: You know, there are not a lot of people who

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Speaker 2: can sort of come around and talk about their marriage

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Speaker 2: in general. She is saying that he has a troubled

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Speaker 2: mind and that this is what she thinks is happening

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Speaker 2: with him, but she's being pretty vague about it. You know,

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Speaker 2: Like I said, I had thought, with these excruciating symptoms,

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Speaker 2: this is not the way most people would have chosen to,

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Speaker 2: you know, take in their own life. That being said,

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Speaker 2: you have and no go into this, Paul, but you

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Speaker 2: have told me about some pretty horrific ways, including a

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Speaker 2: table where people have decided to take their own lives.

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Speaker 2: So now I'm done being incredulous about something like that

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Speaker 2: and expecting anything.

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Speaker 3: Sure, but for somebody to poison themselves, they're not necessarily

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Speaker 3: wanting to do it over a long period of time.

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Speaker 3: They're trying to do an acute poisoning, so they die rapidly.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's continue on and see what we come up

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Speaker 2: with with Arthur. Elizabeth. When the doctor says, what are

401
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Speaker 2: you talking about? You think he's poisoning himself, Elizabeth said

402
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Speaker 2: that he had eaten cream of tartar the night before,

403
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Speaker 2: which she now suspects was laced with arsenic. I know

404
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Speaker 2: what arsenic is. My mom kept a container in the

405
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Speaker 2: spice rack of cream of tartar. I know it's used

406
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Speaker 2: in baking. I can't remember or ever using it, but

407
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Speaker 2: I know it's there, and I think it's still there. Frankly,

408
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Speaker 2: it's thirty years old. I have a list of things

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Speaker 2: that they would have used it in. But just off

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Speaker 2: the top of your head, do you have any idea

411
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Speaker 2: what that's use would be in a kitchen?

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Speaker 4: It's the cream of tartar.

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Speaker 3: As far as I know as a baking ingredient, I

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Speaker 3: think it's you know, I don't know anything more about it.

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Speaker 3: I'm not a baker. It doesn't seem like it's something

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Speaker 3: that you would take by itself. It would be something

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Speaker 3: that'd be added, you know, to you know, something that's

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Speaker 3: cooked or something that's baked.

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Speaker 4: But that's all I know.

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Speaker 2: One of the things I found out is that cream

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Speaker 2: of tartar in the eighteen hundreds was used medicinally for heartburn.

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Speaker 2: And I think it would be mixed with milk, I

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Speaker 2: would suspect, or you know, like a fiber powder would

424
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Speaker 2: be today, so you know, it was mixed up. And

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Speaker 2: I think she's saying that he had an upset stomach

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Speaker 2: and he took it. Now she says, I actually think

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Speaker 2: that this is arsenic that he took, and he was

428
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Speaker 2: pretending to take the cream of tartar to. I don't

429
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Speaker 2: know what it would be. Spare her feelings, I will

430
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Speaker 2: say cream of tartar was used also in the making

431
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Speaker 2: of wine, and we know that, you know, he would

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Speaker 2: make wine barrels. So all of this is connected in

433
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Speaker 2: an odd way. So I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Is who makes up this cream a tartar, who gives

435
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 3: it to him or does he go and get it himself?

436
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 4: You know what is the wife saying?

437
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 2: She says that he did it. So he got it, okay,

438
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 2: and took it. He consumed it. I don't think he

439
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,479
Speaker 2: was taking it by this spoonful. I think because it

440
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 2: was medicinal. The insinuation is is that he was using

441
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 2: it because he had an upset stomach or some heartburn.

442
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,399
Speaker 3: So obviously, if there's still the source of this cream

443
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 3: a tartar, that's evidence.

444
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then on top of that, Arthur has been vomiting,

445
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,400
Speaker 2: and so there the doctor had the foresight of making

446
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 2: sure he knew where all of this vomit was because

447
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 2: it was in multiple places, to make sure that if

448
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,400
Speaker 2: something was going awry here with Arthur, that there would

449
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 2: be some kind of evidence. And the reason is that

450
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 2: Arthur denied it. When he came back on Monday, Arthur

451
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 2: had improved and then he started to go downhill and

452
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 2: he had a conversation with the doctor and he said,

453
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 2: I did not take it myself, despite what Elizabeth said,

454
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 2: And he said, I think I'm being poisoned. And when

455
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 2: the doctor pressed him on it, he would not say

456
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 2: who did it? He just said, I'm pretty sure I'm

457
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 2: being poisoned.

458
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 3: I think you know two thoughts. You know, the doctor

459
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 3: shows up and Arthur starts feeling better, and whether the

460
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:18,439
Speaker 3: doctor gave him something, you know, charcoal or whatever. But

461
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 3: the presence of the doctor may have prevented the offender

462
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 3: from being able to add to whatever poison is being used.

463
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,120
Speaker 3: Maybe it is this arsenic you know, on that particular day,

464
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 3: and now Arthur's starting to recover, either from the medicinal

465
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 3: intervention or just from the lack of ingesting more poison.

466
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 3: But then starting Monday, he's back to feeling symptoms and

467
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 3: either the medicinal intervention or off or now he's starting

468
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 3: to ingest more poison. And then, of course, who has

469
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 3: you know, the access to Arthur. We know the wife

470
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 3: Elizabeth does, but is there anybody else that is accessing

471
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,120
Speaker 3: either Arthur directly or anything that he might be ingesting

472
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,439
Speaker 3: inside the house. Let's say a maid going into the

473
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 3: pantry and spiking the cream of tartar with arsenic.

474
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 2: Well, let's keep going and find out. Arthur gets worse

475
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 2: and worse, and that day that the doctor's there, he

476
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,239
Speaker 2: dies because of what he said and of course what

477
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 2: Elizabeth said. The doctor calls in the authorities, which in

478
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 2: the eighteen fifties could have been just like a local constable.

479
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 2: It could have been a deputy, it could have been

480
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 2: you know, various people, no one, I don't think with

481
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 2: in depth experience, however, I think you're going to be

482
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 2: a little surprised by this. They gather the stomach contents

483
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 2: once there's an autopsy, and they get a dirt sample

484
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 2: from outside the Reagan home. And they get this dirt

485
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 2: sample because when he threw up, somebody who was in

486
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 2: the house, probably Elizabeth, collected it and threw it outside

487
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,239
Speaker 2: to get rid of it. And so they collect this

488
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 2: dirt sample and they send it off for analysis in Columbus, Ohio,

489
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 2: big city. They run five different tests, so they had

490
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 2: the capability of looking for arsenic and it comes back

491
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 2: arsenic positive, positive for arsenic. And I was wondering if

492
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 2: you were going to be surprised if they had that

493
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 2: capability back then to look for arsenic.

494
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,719
Speaker 3: I'm not shocked, I guess is the way to put it,

495
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 3: you know, like I do have the you know, the

496
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 3: Essentials of Forensic Medicine book from eighteen ninety two, and

497
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 3: it's surprising in terms of the depth of chemistry knowledge

498
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 3: that the toxicology experts.

499
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 4: Back in the day actually had.

500
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 3: And so the soil that they're looking at, they're obviously

501
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 3: not using modern instrumental techniques, nor are they utilizing anything

502
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 3: really advanced. There in essence reacting that soil with various

503
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 3: compounds that they know respond a certain way in the

504
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 3: presence of a certain toxic and so they a compound.

505
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 3: I don't know what they would have used, but they

506
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 3: probably reacted that soil oil with a compound and maybe

507
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 3: microscopically saw a certain shape of crystal and they go up,

508
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 3: that's positive for arsenic. In this day and age, it's

509
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 3: just a presumptive test, but back then that's they probably concluded, Yes,

510
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 3: this is arsenic. There's arsenic in this soil sample, and

511
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 3: his vomit is mixed with that dirt.

512
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 2: And then you have to think, with arsenic in so

513
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 2: many products that were so easily available, I mean, mostly

514
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 2: rough on rats and products used to kill animals. They're

515
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 2: on a farm type situation, is this something that he

516
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 2: would have ingested accidentally somehow, some way. But there's a

517
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: newspaper in nineteen ten that says that he had ingested

518
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 2: enough arsenic according to the people who tested it, to

519
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 2: kill quote half a dozen men. Now that's vague, but well,

520
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 2: it sounds like a shit ton of arsenic to me?

521
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 2: Is that the scientific term?

522
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 4: Yeah?

523
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 3: You know, I think, well, I kind of have a

524
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 3: problem because I don't think that there would be any

525
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 3: way back in eighteen fifty for them to do what

526
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 3: we would call a quantitative analysis. You know, in essence,

527
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 3: there's probably a subjective opinion by the I'm going to

528
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 3: call the person a toxicologist that is going this is

529
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 3: a strong reaction, stronger than what they typically see. But

530
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 3: it's in many ways it's out of context. You know,

531
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 3: you're dealing with something that you know, is it hasn't

532
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 3: been concentrated because of you know, the vomit aspect and

533
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 3: in the soil, and is there something going on there?

534
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 3: So I don't know, I really am skeptical about an

535
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 3: opinion like that, but I think what I would conclude

536
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 3: is is that if this person actually has some experience

537
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 3: testing a variety of arsenic containing samples, that they saw

538
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 3: a very strong and quick reaction and concluded, oh, there's

539
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 3: a lot of arsenic here.

540
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 4: That's probably about the extent that they can say.

541
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 2: Well, of course the suspicion is on Elizabeth. I don't

542
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 2: think anybody believes, including the doctor, that he took all

543
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 2: this stuff himself. It would have been so painful and

544
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 2: as he said, over such a long period of time, right,

545
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 2: It just seemed sure, especially after Arthur said I think

546
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 2: I'm being poisoned. I don't know why he didn't say anything.

547
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 2: Maybe he didn't have conclusive proof that it was his

548
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 2: wife or a neighbor. We've certainly heard about, you know,

549
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 2: neighbor disputes, So there's a list of suspects that could

550
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 2: pop up right now. They're really homing in on Elizabeth, though.

551
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,719
Speaker 3: Well, I think with Arthur making that statement about I

552
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,959
Speaker 3: think I'm being poisoned, you know, in many ways, that

553
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 3: negates him doing this to himself, because if he was,

554
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 3: he's now undoing the reason he would be poisoning himself,

555
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 3: you know. And now he's saying it's a homicide, right

556
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 3: or somebody's trying to hurt me, and ultimately it's a

557
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 3: homicide through poisoning. So this does seem to indicate that

558
00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 3: somebody with Elizabeth the primary person having access, is trying

559
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 3: to kill him utilizing the arsenic. Now, Elizabeth is prime

560
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 3: suspect for sure, but I also go to, well, if

561
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 3: Arthur's going in himself to the cream of tartar, is

562
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 3: there somebody else that could be adding arsenic to that

563
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 3: cream of tartar?

564
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,719
Speaker 4: Yeah? Oh, versus just Elizabeth.

565
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 2: I don't believe they're finding arsenic anywhere in the house.

566
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 2: I don't believe they find the cream of tartar anywhere

567
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 2: that you know we're talking about, But that's not reported,

568
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 2: so I don't know it could have been there, and

569
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 2: I think that if it had been tested, there probably

570
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 2: would have been a note about that. But the way

571
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 2: we're going into this is because of what he said

572
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 2: and because of Elizabeth planting it very early that she

573
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 2: believed that he was trying to take his own life.

574
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 2: People of course, are looking at the wife. Sure, so

575
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 2: the police are thinking what kind of physical evidence do

576
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 2: we have? And so far they don't. They don't have

577
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 2: any physical evidence that they can say that would prove

578
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 2: aside from his statement you know that I didn't do this.

579
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: Who would have done this to him? If the doors

580
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 2: are unlocked and there are other people in his life?

581
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 3: Well, and that's where you know it's his victimology. You

582
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 3: have the spouse and you know what is that relationship, Like,

583
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 3: how would she benefit if Arthur is no longer around

584
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 3: and has died. But then what else has Arthur been

585
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 3: involved with? And is there a way for somebody on

586
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 3: the outside to have accomplished this poisoning if Arthur is

587
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 3: not leaving the house during this time that he's ill.

588
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 2: Okay, well, let's get into what becomes the more scandalous

589
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 2: parts of this story, which are to me with some

590
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 2: of the most interesting. So a simple mistake leads to

591
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 2: some pretty big accusations. So here's what happens around this

592
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 2: time when the investigators are working on the case and

593
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 2: the doctor is trying to figure out what happened. There

594
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 2: is a man who shows up to the investigators. His

595
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 2: name is J. L. Temple. He is the assistant postmaster

596
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 2: of a town nearby Colesville called Troy, and he comes

597
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 2: with this I think damning information months earlier, so January.

598
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 2: We're in April when Arthur dies. So in January he

599
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 2: had gotten a letter that he found really troubling. It

600
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 2: was returned to the post office after it had been

601
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 2: given to the wrong person. Eventually, when he gets this

602
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 2: letter back, and there's a man named Murray who returns

603
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 2: this letter and says, this is not me, It's meant

604
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 2: for somebody else. Then JAYL Temple looks at this letter

605
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 2: and realizes that he gave it to the wrong person.

606
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 2: The letter was not meant for a man named Murray.

607
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 2: It was meant for a man whose last name was Maori.

608
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 2: So James Maury was supposed to get this letter. And

609
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 2: it was dated December sixth, about a month earlier, and

610
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 2: it was sent from a different town, the Piqua town

611
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 2: that I was telling you about before. So it was

612
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 2: so disturbing that the postmaster made a copy and then

613
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 2: gave it to the rightful owner of this who was

614
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 2: James Mawy. This is kind of a long letter, but

615
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 2: I feel like you're going to want to hear all

616
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,720
Speaker 2: of it. So this guy's name is James. It's written

617
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 2: to James, and it says, dear Jimmy, once again, I

618
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 2: am seeded to write a few lines to you. I

619
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 2: said I would not write anymore, but you know I

620
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 2: can't refrain from it, and as I have been living

621
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 2: in a perfect hell. If you will allow me the

622
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 2: expression it is a hard one, but nevertheless true. And

623
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 2: I have been tormented day and night since I came home.

624
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 2: He so we don't know who he is, saw me

625
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 2: kiss you and that was enough. Oh, I have had

626
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 2: to suffer for it. I did not think he saw me,

627
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 2: but he was watching me. I'm so near beside myself.

628
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 2: I hardly know what I am doing. He says, I

629
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 2: shall not go home anymore, and he says he will

630
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 2: not get me any more clothes, and then I can't

631
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 2: go as much as I have. Now, I can't stand

632
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,399
Speaker 2: this any longer, and I appeal for your help. There

633
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 2: is another part of this letter, Paul, but it's unsigned.

634
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 2: I will say this eventually does get tied to Elizabeth Reagan.

635
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I kind of figured. I mean stating

636
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:30,280
Speaker 3: the obvious. Obviously, Elizabeth seems to have a relationship with James,

637
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 3: and that relationship was discovered by Arthur. Now she is

638
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 3: confiding in James on how her life at home is

639
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 3: miserable because he's basically taking over control and what she's

640
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 3: doing as well. As it sounds like Elizabeth under the

641
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 3: guise of going to see her parents is possibly when

642
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,399
Speaker 3: she's slipping out to go see James, and so Arthur

643
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,280
Speaker 3: is going You're not doing that anymore, You're staying home.

644
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,959
Speaker 3: This letter, at least with what you've read so far,

645
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 3: makes it sound like Elizabeth is feeling trapped. Now, she's

646
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 3: having to figure out how do I get out of

647
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 3: this trap? And it sounds like she's possibly appealing to

648
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 3: James to help her at this point in the letter.

649
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,800
Speaker 3: What a letter to be delivered to the wrong person.

650
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 2: I know this isn't me and this is somebody else?

651
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 2: Can you not read? It is not Marie, it's mottle Boy,

652
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 2: it's Maori. Well do you want to hear the second

653
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 2: half of this because then it gets really specific?

654
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 3: Of course, I do you know? Of course you know

655
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 3: I'm now questioning the pregnancy and who's the father?

656
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 2: This is what else? Now it says is Elizabeth is

657
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 2: the letter writer here, even though it's not signed. I

658
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 2: have thought of one more plan. I'm going to make

659
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 2: one more proposition to you, and if you will do it,

660
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 2: I will grant you the request you have so long

661
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 2: asked of me, as soon as you do what I

662
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 2: want you to do or before, if you will only

663
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 2: do what I want you now, it is this, You

664
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 2: make a proposition to him to go with you to

665
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 2: look at some new country to Oregon or Wisconsin or

666
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 2: some other place, and name the period right off. And

667
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,359
Speaker 2: if he says he has not the means, you tell

668
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 2: him you will furnish him with the means if he

669
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 2: will go for company. So clearly James and Arthur know

670
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 2: each other. Ye, And then I will persuade him to go.

671
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 2: And then you can go on horseback or on the cars.

672
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 2: And you can take your two horses and go part

673
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 2: of the way on the cars, and you can take

674
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 2: the horses and go the rest of the way, that

675
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 2: is till you get a good ways away from here.

676
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 2: And you can procure your poison and administer it in

677
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 2: his oysters, and he will never know the difference. You

678
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 2: can eat your oysters on the road, or you can

679
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 2: give them to some farmhouse. They will never know the difference.

680
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 2: And you can pretend to take it hard, to think

681
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 2: you have to turn back.

682
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 4: So to pretend to take it hard.

683
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 3: Like if Arthur dies as a result of eating oysters.

684
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 2: Oh that's it. And then he's so upset he has

685
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 2: to move. He gets to go back home.

686
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 3: He gets to go back. And now she's promising him.

687
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 3: I guess the way that I'm interpreting the early part

688
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 3: of the second part of the letter is it sounds

689
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 3: like James has been asking for a more involved relationship

690
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 3: with Elizabeth, and so she's now saying, you do this, basically,

691
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 3: kill Arthur, and I will do what you've been asking for,

692
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 3: which sounds like whether that's a marriage or something more

693
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 3: involved than what they've been able to do while she's

694
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 3: been married with Arthur.

695
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 2: I will inform you now that James is married with children,

696
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 2: So then it gets more complicated. Well maybe not, I

697
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 2: mean a little look on your face and maybe not.

698
00:38:58,440 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 3: Well what tangled?

699
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 4: Well they weave? No, yea.

700
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 3: I was just thinking oysters in the middle of the country.

701
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:10,720
Speaker 3: I've never had oysters. I don't think I can ingest

702
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 3: a whole creature like that.

703
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 4: I'm very picky when it comes to.

704
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 2: Eating food, jesting whole creatures.

705
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 3: Maybe one of these days, with a sufficient bourbon in me,

706
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 3: I might try.

707
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, not with me, buddy, I don't like oysters either.

708
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 3: Oh, but I was just thinking why specifically oysters, and

709
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 3: I imagine oysters in the middle of the country were

710
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,240
Speaker 3: probably a common source of food poisoning.

711
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 2: They were a delicacy in the eighteen hundreds in certain parts,

712
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 2: and certainly I would think Ohio, I would think it

713
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,799
Speaker 2: would be very difficult, no matter what the risk is,

714
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 2: for somebody like Arthur Reagan to say no to something

715
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,359
Speaker 2: like that, because it would have been pricey for them

716
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 2: to get them, and I wonder if they're packed correctly,

717
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,439
Speaker 2: they would be salty, like with salt water. I don't

718
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 2: know what arsenic tastes like, but for some reason, I

719
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 2: have heard of oil being poisoned with arsenic before. So

720
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 2: this doesn't seem novel, but it's definitely a choice. Cream

721
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 2: of tartar seems like it's looking pretty good at this point.

722
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 3: Okay, so the use of the oysters is really just

723
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 3: you know, it's like offering up you know.

724
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 4: Nice chocolate, right, It's yeah, Okay.

725
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 3: So she has devised a plan and she is manipulating

726
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 3: James in order to in essence, take care of Arthur

727
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 3: for her.

728
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 4: That's interesting.

729
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 3: It'll be interesting to see how Arthur ends up being

730
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 3: poisoned in his own house, because it doesn't sound like

731
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:42,399
Speaker 3: this trip must have happened. He didn't receive this well.

732
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 3: He received the letter well before. Arthur actually ends up

733
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 3: being poisoned.

734
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 2: Right, it's January, yes, so that's what three or four

735
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 2: months before.

736
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 3: I wondered, did the postmaster actually tell James, hey, this

737
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 3: was accidentally delivered to somebody else who opened it and

738
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 3: read it. Or did he just kind of repackage the

739
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 3: the letter and give it to James without divulging that

740
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,320
Speaker 3: you know. And so now James is kicking into motion

741
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 3: what Elizabeth wants, but later in time than what Elizabeth

742
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 3: initially thought would happen.

743
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 2: So the postmaster copies this letter. So to me, that

744
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 2: means he clearly didn't turn it over to the investigators.

745
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 2: So he turned this back over to James, but kept

746
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 2: a copy of the letter, which is very smart. There's

747
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 2: a little bit left. Tell me if this makes sense

748
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 2: to you. So the last thing she says to him

749
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 2: is pretend like this is terrible and that you're so

750
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 2: upset you have to go back home. When you have

751
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 2: accomplished what I have told you. Mayah, she's manipulative. When

752
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 2: you accomplish what I have told you, then you can

753
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 2: telegraph to me that he is dead. I will tell

754
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 2: the templars and have them make up thirty dollars and

755
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 2: send to you to bear his expenses, So Arthur must

756
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 2: have been a member, is what I'm assuming. If you

757
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 2: will come up as soon as you get this, I

758
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 2: will tell you better. Now, dear, do come. You know

759
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 2: I love you, you are well aware of it. I

760
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 2: will write no more till I see you come up

761
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:14,240
Speaker 2: right away. My ink is pale. You're right, it sounds

762
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 2: like he wants more because she seems to be emphasizing

763
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 2: to him and reassuring him how much that she loves him,

764
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 2: and then she's asking this huge thing. She obviously trusts

765
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 2: him enough to not go to authorities.

766
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, but also there's there's a two way street here,

767
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 3: or maybe a three way street, because James is married himself,

768
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 3: you know. So now even if he carries out this

769
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 3: plot that Elizabeth is launching and gets rid of Arthur,

770
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 3: well that frees up Elizabeth. But he has a family

771
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 3: at home that isn't necessarily going to be very accepting

772
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 3: of Elizabeth in his life, you know. So James is

773
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 3: sort of in a in a pinch from that perspective.

774
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 3: So something has you know, I guess what are the

775
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 3: quest since I have? Did James and Arthur actually go

776
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 3: on a trip to find this plot of land or

777
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 3: did that just dissolve over time for one reason like

778
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 3: Arthur's Like, now I'm not interested, and so now Elizabeth

779
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 3: and James have to concoct a different way of getting

780
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:18,879
Speaker 3: rid of Arthur.

781
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,919
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think once we get into the legal part

782
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 2: of this, maybe that'll answer some questions. I don't believe

783
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 2: the trip ever happened, and I think that they had

784
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 2: to kind of punt regarding James's family. I don't think

785
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 2: James is thinking very far ahead, is the impression I'm getting.

786
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 2: So James is thirty two, married with children. As I mentioned,

787
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 2: he has brought. Now explain this to me. He's brought

788
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 2: to court for a preliminary trial. Is that the same thing?

789
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 2: Do you think as a preliminary hearing? This is not

790
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 2: a murder trial. It sounds like it's in for questioning.

791
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,399
Speaker 2: But there are people testifying, including Elizabeth.

792
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:56,919
Speaker 4: It was this related to Arthur's death.

793
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 2: Then yes, it's not a murder trial. It sounds like

794
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 2: a pulmonary hearing. But they're calling it a trial just

795
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:04,720
Speaker 2: to see if it should go on to trial.

796
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:09,720
Speaker 3: That sounds more I think akin to like a grand jury. Okay,

797
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 3: with preliminary hearings, that's after somebody has been arrested, charged,

798
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 3: or reigned, right, and so there you have a defendant.

799
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 3: So if there isn't a if you don't have a

800
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 3: defendant and they're just hearing the facts of the case,

801
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 3: it sounds like either a coroner's inquest or maybe a

802
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 3: grand jury.

803
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 2: I think this is probably you're right, akin to a

804
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 2: grand jury. He's not under arrest, and I think they're

805
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:37,399
Speaker 2: just trying to figure out if there's any there there.

806
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:43,240
Speaker 2: And we do have Elizabeth explaining a lot. So now

807
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 2: tell me what you think if you are a defense

808
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 2: attorney for James and a defense attorney for Elizabeth, what

809
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 2: is the best way to go. The only thing implicating

810
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 2: James right now is this letter, the stinking letter. We

811
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:01,359
Speaker 2: know a fingerprint. They're not doing any of that kind

812
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: of stuff. They're not putting arsenic in his hand. But

813
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 2: then he knows that his girlfriend is going to sit

814
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 2: on the stand and you know, testify maybe against him,

815
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 2: maybe not. I don't know if he knows. So I'm

816
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 2: not quite sure what the best tact is for either

817
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 2: of these people who are now under suspicion for killing

818
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 2: Arthur Reagan.

819
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:23,720
Speaker 3: Well, the defense is going to be these two pointing

820
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 3: fingers at each other. But you think about James. You know,

821
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 3: this letter, it's addressed to him, but it's not signed

822
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 3: by Elizabeth, you know, so of course Elizabeth's attorney is

823
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 3: going to say Bett didn't come from Elizabeth. How can

824
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 3: you prove it came from Elizabeth? You know in eighteen fifty,

825
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 3: like you said, no, no fingerprints, no DNA, no signature,

826
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 3: handwriting analysis. You know, maybe somebody says, well, it looks

827
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 3: like her handwriting. So that's that's pretty weak, you know,

828
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 3: from just the letter itself. Nor does does it even

829
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:01,240
Speaker 3: Arthur's name?

830
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 4: It's he, you know.

831
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of wiggle room that I could

832
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 3: see a defense attorney exploiting under those types of circumstances

833
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 3: with that letter to defend Elizabeth. You know, right now,

834
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:19,439
Speaker 3: the biggest thing is is arsenic is found. Elizabeth has

835
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 3: access to Arthur has access to the cream of tartar.

836
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 3: The doctor has been inside the house, you know, he

837
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 3: mostly you know, has to be considered, and you could

838
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 3: see a defense pointing at the doctor and saying the

839
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 3: doctor's one that did this. It would be really tough.

840
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 3: I think James is in the best position, you know,

841
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 3: at least with what you've told me is he lives

842
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 3: a distance away. Unless somebody have witnesses that could put James,

843
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 3: you know, lurking around the house around the time Arthur

844
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 3: starts getting sick, It's going to be tough to put

845
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 3: the poisoning on James from the distance. But it sounds

846
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 3: like Elizabeth in this letter is asking James to come

847
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 3: visit her. So does that visit a her?

848
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 2: Well, let's get into what everybody says here. Elizabeth has

849
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 2: been romantically involved with James in the past before they

850
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 2: both got married. Okay, so when she is talking at this,

851
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 2: let's just call this grand jury testimony. When she is

852
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 2: doing this, she is saying, you know, we were together

853
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 2: before we met our spouses, then we stopped being together

854
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:27,280
Speaker 2: after that. What she says how they reconnected is interesting.

855
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 2: She reconnected with him. So Maren was confused, as am

856
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 2: I about this last summer a year ago, so you know,

857
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 2: she hasn't seen She says that they have not seen

858
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 2: each other for a while, and she was visiting her

859
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 2: father's home in Colesville. She says she was nursing her

860
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 2: baby at her dad's house when James, who lived in

861
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 2: the area, showed up and declared his love for her.

862
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 2: You know, that is kind of a pretty bold statement.

863
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 2: She says that she said, I'm not interested James. I've

864
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 2: got a baby. But at some point the baby passes away.

865
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 2: She sees James again a few months later. She's in

866
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 2: a state of grief. She's very vulnerable, and she succumbs

867
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 2: and they start this affair. There doesn't seem to be

868
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 2: anything nefarious about the baby dying. I'm sure it was

869
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 2: like bacterial effecture something like that. They're not suspecting anything,

870
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 2: but it sounds like from the beginning of this testimony

871
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 2: she's definitely sort of setting herself up as the vulnerable

872
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 2: young woman slash young girl. So she would have been

873
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 2: probably twenty twenty one when this started. James is ten

874
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 2: years older, so you know, who is sort of falling

875
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 2: for this and this affair begins. So she sounds like

876
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 2: she's being honest. She's saying, yes, we were having an affair,

877
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 2: we were sleeping together, which in the eighteen fifties would

878
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 2: have been something else to say, but she's being honest

879
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 2: about it. So what do you think so far?

880
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 3: Well, this is just you know, typical human relationships. You know,

881
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 3: whether you've got the marriages or you have you know,

882
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,479
Speaker 3: some partner that you're with, but then you've also got

883
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 3: you know, feelings for somebody else. I mean, this is

884
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 3: a long term relationship between the two relatively speaking, something

885
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 3: caused both of them to marry somebody else. But then

886
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 3: most early it sounds like James is still pining for Elizabeth.

887
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:23,839
Speaker 3: I guess Elizabeth actually has also got emotions for him.

888
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 3: When they restart and rekindle this affair, you know, and

889
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 3: this is possibly the pregnancy, maybe a result of the

890
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:35,399
Speaker 3: sexual interactions you know, during this affair. But then Elizabeth,

891
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:40,720
Speaker 3: you know, Arthur finds out and now Elizabeth is capitalizing

892
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 3: on James's emotions for her to manipulate him to get

893
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 3: rid of Arthur. And I imagine in eighteen fifties, the

894
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 3: idea of a divorce is probably a tough thing to accept.

895
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:57,879
Speaker 2: It would be difficult. But do you see anything any

896
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 2: credibility in what she's saying, which she is I just

897
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 2: lost my baby, And probably she's framing Arthur as crotchety,

898
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,800
Speaker 2: maybe not the best husband in the world. She's having

899
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 2: this affair that she was manipulated into. She doesn't know

900
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 2: how to get out of it. And so she's saying,

901
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:18,839
Speaker 2: do you see how that there's a world where that

902
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:22,280
Speaker 2: could also be happening when you have an older person

903
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 2: like James sort of pressing against her constantly, because she says,

904
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 2: Paul that James said, run away with me. Every single

905
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,799
Speaker 2: time she was in town visiting her dad, he would

906
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 2: find her. And then he says, let's poison Arthur to

907
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 2: make this much easier on both of us. That's what

908
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 2: she says.

909
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:44,720
Speaker 3: He says her perspective is a possibility, but also sounds

910
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 3: like she's minimizing, you know, in essence, she's saying, he's

911
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 3: the manipulator. I kind of succumbed to the manipulation, and

912
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 3: he's the one that is like, let's get rid of Arthur. Well,

913
00:50:58,040 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 3: that's I think possible.

914
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 4: But if we.

915
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 3: Believe the letter came from Elizabeth, that's not what the

916
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 3: letter says.

917
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 4: She's the one.

918
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 3: I mean, she's she's still saying he's really pining for

919
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 3: her in that letter, But she's launching the plot, a

920
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 3: very sophisticated plot, relatively speaking, you know, to get Arthur

921
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 3: out away from the small town and to poison him

922
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 3: with these tainted oysters. You know and then James can

923
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 3: finally get what he's been asking for. So at that point,

924
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 3: she really is the manipulator. I think, Elizabeth, there's probably

925
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 3: a lot of truth in terms of how the relationship

926
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 3: occurred in James feelings for her that she's expressing while

927
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 3: she's testifying.

928
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 4: But I'm not buying that.

929
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 3: You know, James is the one that is, you know,

930
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 3: behind Arthur's death, is the one that is coming up

931
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 3: with that idea. I think she's the one. She's the

932
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 3: one that's expressing she's feeling trapped because Arthur found out

933
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 3: about her and James, and Arthur probably knew that those

934
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 3: two had previous relationships before the marriage has occurred.

935
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:12,879
Speaker 2: Well, this is what Elizabeth said about exactly what you're

936
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:16,799
Speaker 2: talking about. She said, I thought he was crazy. I

937
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 2: was not interested in doing that. I was not interested

938
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 2: in leaving Arthur or killing him, especially until Arthur put

939
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 2: his hands on me. And then that's when things changed

940
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:29,399
Speaker 2: for me. She said. James put it in my head

941
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 2: a little bit that this was a possibility. Let's poison him.

942
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:36,359
Speaker 2: I'll leave my wife, He'll be dead. Whatever money Arthur

943
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 2: has could be ours. She mentions in that letter she

944
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 2: reiterates that Arthur saw her kissing James and Arthur freaked out.

945
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 2: This happened in December. She said, he grew enraged, he

946
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 2: put his hands on her, he shook her. He said

947
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 2: exactly what she said. I'm not buying you any more clothes.

948
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 2: You are never going to your father's again, and you

949
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 2: are not going to see this guy again. And then

950
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 2: that's when she sends this letter, just saying I can't

951
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 2: deal with it. I'm not gonna be able to live

952
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 2: the next forty years with this guy. And she's pregnant

953
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 2: and I don't know yet, but of course we're suspecting

954
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:14,799
Speaker 2: that she's probably not having sex with Arthur. She's having

955
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 2: sex with James though, so she is feeling trapped. So

956
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 2: you know, she saw James in January and he had

957
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 2: not gotten this letter because of this whole like mumbling

958
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 2: mix up thing that happened. But she said he's the

959
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 2: one who said, let's spike Arthur's coffee with Arsenic. So

960
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:37,720
Speaker 2: again he comes back with even though there's this letter

961
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 2: that's got her plan in it, he's kind of insinuating

962
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:42,800
Speaker 2: this all sounds like it's going to take too long.

963
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 2: Why don't you just get arsenic and put it in

964
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 2: his coffee.

965
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 3: Well, you know, fundamentally, a crime has occurred and the

966
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 3: crime resulted in Arthur's death. That's a homicide by poisoning.

967
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:57,879
Speaker 3: So it really comes down to in the investigation, who

968
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 3: is the one providing Arthur the arsenic? Who is the one,

969
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 3: whether it be in his coffee, whether it be in

970
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 3: the kreama tartar, Who is the one that is doing that.

971
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:10,439
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter that a discussion occurred months before, even

972
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 3: if James is the originator of the idea, if he's

973
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 3: not the one that is actually dosing Arthur with the

974
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 3: actual murder weapon, the arsenic, you know, he is not

975
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 3: culpable for the murder. It's the person that is doing it.

976
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 3: And so that's where we get into Okay, No, obviously

977
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 3: Elizabeth is inside the house, she most certainly could do this.

978
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 3: Does James have an alibi? Is do we have anybody

979
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:41,360
Speaker 3: putting James into a position to either be inside the

980
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 3: house or to spike something of food stuff that ultimately

981
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 3: makes its way into the house. You know, And then

982
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 3: we're talking about, Okay, what is the culpability of the

983
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:56,800
Speaker 3: person who's providing let's say the kreama tartar that spiked

984
00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:00,880
Speaker 3: versus the person who is actually giving the cream of tartar.

985
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 3: And then if it's Arthur who is self consuming, you know,

986
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 3: he goes in, then there's intelligence from inside the house

987
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 3: to the person outside the house of this is what

988
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 3: the victim always eats or always drinks. So now you

989
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,319
Speaker 3: could see from a distance how somebody like James could

990
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 3: be culpable for the homicide because he is now exploiting

991
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 3: that type of intel in order because he you know,

992
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 3: just through that information, he is in essence dosing Arthur himself,

993
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:35,920
Speaker 3: even though it's from a distance.

994
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 4: If that makes any.

995
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 2: Sense, Yeah, absolutely, I think that you could believe, as

996
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 2: a man in the eighteen hundred's, you know, sitting as

997
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:48,319
Speaker 2: a judger on a jury, that a woman could be

998
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 2: manipulated by a man who is older than her, for sure.

999
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 2: But the detail and how well she thought out that

1000
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:58,719
Speaker 2: plan of taking him on a horseback and the whole oysters,

1001
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:02,360
Speaker 2: I mean, she really thought out every detail. So you know,

1002
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 2: I am then leaning him a lot more towards she

1003
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 2: was manipulating James more than anything else. But let's continue.

1004
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 2: So she says, you know, I bought arsenic. He told

1005
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:16,759
Speaker 2: me to. I mixed it into Arthur's coffee. It made

1006
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 2: him sick, but it didn't kill him. So that must

1007
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 2: have been the Friday into the Sunday when the doctor

1008
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:26,840
Speaker 2: shows up, right. She said she tried again after the

1009
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:30,239
Speaker 2: doctor left that Sunday and she put it in his

1010
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 2: chicken soup and he said it tasted great, and then

1011
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:35,839
Speaker 2: he died the next day.

1012
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:36,919
Speaker 3: So she is.

1013
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 2: Fully admitting this, which is what makes this case to

1014
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 2: me even more interesting. We don't know why she testified.

1015
00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:46,279
Speaker 2: She was not compelled or made to do it. There

1016
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 2: were some sources that said she did it because she

1017
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:52,360
Speaker 2: was going to be promised sort of immunity later on.

1018
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:55,799
Speaker 2: Because really people did think she was being manipulated, that

1019
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 2: it wasn't him. She had given birth, she was breast

1020
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:03,920
Speaker 2: feeding on the stand, and this would have been really shocking.

1021
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:05,799
Speaker 2: I mean, it would be shocking now, I think, but

1022
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 2: it was really shocking, and she was saying, I have

1023
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 2: to be able to do this. So then you think

1024
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:13,279
Speaker 2: about that. Is that a level of manipulation? What is

1025
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:15,800
Speaker 2: that doing to the people who are listening to this information.

1026
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, to me, that's blatant manipulation in terms of trying

1027
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 3: to become more sympathetic to the.

1028
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:23,960
Speaker 4: Jurors or to whoever.

1029
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 3: If this was just maybe a you know, you just

1030
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 3: have a judge a magistrate that's hearing the testimony. But

1031
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 3: in essence, here I am, you know now a single mother,

1032
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 3: you know, and I've got to take care of my baby.

1033
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 3: I couldn't imagine a judge actually allowing that to occur

1034
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:45,920
Speaker 3: during session. But eighteen fifties and small little area out

1035
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 3: there in Ohio, who knows how their trials are run.

1036
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 3: But fundamentally, she is confessing to murdering Arthur on the stand.

1037
00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 3: She's the one that is putting the arsenic in different

1038
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 3: things that Arthur is ingesting. So it's not just a

1039
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 3: one time thing. She does it in his coffee, she

1040
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 3: does it in his chicken noodle soup, you know. So

1041
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 3: that from my perspective, is cut and dry. You know,

1042
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 3: she murdered Arthur. Now, all this talk about the relationship,

1043
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 3: you know, you've got from Elizabeth's perspective in one of

1044
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 3: the things I wanted to address, I don't disbelieve her

1045
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 3: in terms of Arthur got physical with her after finding

1046
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 3: out about James, right, you know, but does that that's

1047
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 3: not a get out of jail free card in terms

1048
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 3: of this type of homicide, because she's now plotting, She's

1049
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 3: sending the letter with a very detailed plot. She's now

1050
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:48,440
Speaker 3: putting arsenic and multiple food stuff that ultimately kills kills Arthur.

1051
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 3: So standalone, you know she is responsible for murder. The

1052
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 3: reason she murders Arthur could come into play in terms

1053
00:58:56,160 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 3: of assessing kind of the sentencing you will you know,

1054
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:05,760
Speaker 3: and where the crime charge is. I don't know what

1055
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:10,480
Speaker 3: Ohio's murder statutes are. You know's this a second degree murder?

1056
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 3: Doesn't could You could even argue maybe there's a first

1057
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 3: degree aspect with all the malice, a forethought, you know,

1058
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 3: the pre planning. So from my perspective, she's absolutely responsible

1059
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 3: and it's confessing to the murder of Arthur. It just

1060
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 3: now comes into well, what is James' role in the crime.

1061
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 3: You know, it's one thing to be in a relationship

1062
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 3: and to discuss this, but does James provide the arsenic?

1063
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:38,960
Speaker 3: You know, does he instruct her how to do it?

1064
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:42,440
Speaker 3: You know, there's there. I think there's different levels of

1065
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 3: culpability that may or may not be there for James.

1066
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 2: Well, she admits she bought it herself, and one of

1067
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,720
Speaker 2: them doesn't know what they're doing because she didn't give

1068
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:54,920
Speaker 2: him enough to begin with. You know, so if James

1069
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:58,440
Speaker 2: did kind of try to give her advice on how

1070
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 2: much to administer, heate and know what he was doing

1071
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 2: either because he didn't kill Arthur the first time.

1072
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have a hard time, at least within the

1073
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 3: murder of Arthur, seeing how James has any significant culpability.

1074
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 3: Does he lie to the constable or to law enforcement?

1075
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 3: Does he have knowledge and fails to come forward, even

1076
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 3: though that's not necessarily a crime, But if he lied

1077
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:28,400
Speaker 3: while being interviewed to a peace officer or to the court,

1078
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:31,960
Speaker 3: if he testified, then yeah, maybe he could be charged

1079
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 3: with a type of crime. But the mere fact that

1080
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 3: he was aware that Elizabeth was possibly plotting against Arthur

1081
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 3: and had tried to involve him, he could have reported

1082
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 3: Elizabeth at that point. You know, she's in essence trying

1083
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:50,680
Speaker 3: to hire a hitman, right, Yeah, what ended up happening

1084
01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:51,200
Speaker 3: to James.

1085
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 2: So here's what happens. James is never tried for Arthur's death. Okay,

1086
01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:00,800
Speaker 2: there's any evidence against him? Yeah, and you know, he

1087
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 2: had denied all of this to begin with, so we

1088
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:06,760
Speaker 2: don't know what his role was. He has kept quiet.

1089
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 2: We don't know what happened to him after that that

1090
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 2: he has let go. After her testimony, she is arrested

1091
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 2: and they want to put her on trial for murder.

1092
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was first degree. I can't

1093
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:19,760
Speaker 2: imagine would be for maybe it would be first degree,

1094
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 2: I don't know. Let me kind of preface this by

1095
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:25,040
Speaker 2: telling you what a reporter says, who was in that

1096
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 2: preliminary trial, and it was sort of the sentiment of

1097
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:31,320
Speaker 2: everyone there because it was very clear to them that

1098
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 2: she was confessing when she was giving this testimony. He says.

1099
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:39,240
Speaker 2: We have no desire to injure Missus Reagan to magnify

1100
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 2: her guilt or to lessen the mitigating circumstances in her case.

1101
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 2: On the other hand, we would gladly see her restored

1102
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 2: to innocence and happiness if it were possible eighteen fifty five,

1103
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 2: for the sake of her sex. We would rejoice to

1104
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,920
Speaker 2: see the responsibility of her crime thrown upon man, if

1105
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 2: it could be done justly. It is more fitting, less

1106
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 2: shocking that man should commit such a monstrous crime. But

1107
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:09,520
Speaker 2: Missus Reagan has placed it out of our power or

1108
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 2: the power of any man to injure her case. She

1109
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 2: is a self convicted murderer and nothing can save her

1110
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 2: from death. But the clemency of the governor her life

1111
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 2: may be saved, and we hope it will, but she

1112
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:27,360
Speaker 2: can never be restored to society again. Now this is

1113
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:31,080
Speaker 2: before she's charged with murder, but it will kind of

1114
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 2: give you an idea of the mindset of particularly the

1115
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 2: men in this case, who just don't want to do this.

1116
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:40,080
Speaker 2: They do not this would have been a capital crime.

1117
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:42,160
Speaker 2: Obviously she would have been executed. They don't want to

1118
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:44,360
Speaker 2: do this. Nobody wants to do this. And then she's

1119
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:47,320
Speaker 2: been breastfeeding on the stand for part of her testimony.

1120
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:51,800
Speaker 3: She most certainly is a sympathetic defendant. You know, young,

1121
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:56,680
Speaker 3: young female, feeling trapped, possibly being abused. You know how

1122
01:02:56,920 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 3: they viewed the affair eighteen fifth you know that probably

1123
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:06,280
Speaker 3: was something that really was a mark against both her

1124
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 3: and James. I can see twenty two year old, that's

1125
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 3: how old she was, right, twenty.

1126
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:14,439
Speaker 2: Two at the time.

1127
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 3: You know, I've got a daughter that's ten years older

1128
01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:19,080
Speaker 3: than that, but I know, you know what she was

1129
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 3: like when she was twenty two. And I've got a

1130
01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:24,720
Speaker 3: daughter that's, you know, senior in high school. You know,

1131
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:27,240
Speaker 3: I mean this this is such a young age.

1132
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:27,920
Speaker 4: You know.

1133
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:31,120
Speaker 3: In some ways you can say this is a bad

1134
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 3: decision and you feels sorry that she. I mean, you

1135
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 3: feel sorry for Arthur. He lost his life. But she's

1136
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 3: just showing such poor judgment in terms of how to

1137
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:45,480
Speaker 3: get out of what she feels trapped in. Would there

1138
01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 3: have been other avenues that she could have taken where

1139
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 3: she doesn't resort to murder, you know, And that's that's

1140
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:58,240
Speaker 3: the big thing. My surprise is the capital punishment side

1141
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:02,760
Speaker 3: for this case. And maybe it's just speaking to the

1142
01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:08,440
Speaker 3: eighteen fifties, you know, it seems like that is a

1143
01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:15,160
Speaker 3: kind of excessive punishment, a death penalty for this particular case,

1144
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:16,800
Speaker 3: even though it is a murder case.

1145
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:19,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand that. I mean, this would be a

1146
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:23,680
Speaker 2: time period though, where if you're an habitual thief, they

1147
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:26,720
Speaker 2: would have put you to death. Also, this was pretty extreme.

1148
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:30,200
Speaker 2: Let me tell you what happens all of this, Paul

1149
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:33,200
Speaker 2: is to say that she is never put on trial

1150
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:35,320
Speaker 2: for murder. I don't know if this is the district

1151
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 2: attorney or the sentiment in general that they will not

1152
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:42,960
Speaker 2: convict a woman and sentence her to death, but that

1153
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:46,360
Speaker 2: would have been the only option, and nobody wanted to

1154
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 2: do it. I think there was a feeling that she

1155
01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:52,680
Speaker 2: was manipulated by an older man, that potentially Arthur had

1156
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 2: been abusive. She had a baby in her arms, she

1157
01:04:57,240 --> 01:05:01,680
Speaker 2: was young, so she is not convicted. She has let go.

1158
01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:07,520
Speaker 2: She eventually leaves Piquat and she goes to Indianapolis, and

1159
01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:10,680
Speaker 2: that newspapers say that at one point an old friend

1160
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:15,080
Speaker 2: was leaving a church and Elizabeth was there working at

1161
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:18,800
Speaker 2: the church in Indianapolis and went on presumably to live,

1162
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:22,200
Speaker 2: you know, a hopefully quiet life, but that's what ended

1163
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 2: up happening. They both get out of it, and we

1164
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:27,440
Speaker 2: have no We just know somebody has poisoned Arthur Reagan.

1165
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 2: And nobody's been held responsible ever for this case.

1166
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:33,960
Speaker 3: Right, but you have you have Elizabeth confessing to doing

1167
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:34,680
Speaker 3: the poisoning.

1168
01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:37,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, the DA does have discretion.

1169
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:40,480
Speaker 3: However, you know, when you when you were talking about

1170
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:44,680
Speaker 3: even with these you know, Elizabeth talking about the potential abuse,

1171
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:48,520
Speaker 3: the idea that she's being manipulated by an older man,

1172
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 3: thirty two year olds, These are what I would call

1173
01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:57,080
Speaker 3: her mitigating circumstances, and those can be taken into account

1174
01:05:57,200 --> 01:06:01,080
Speaker 3: by the district attorney in terms of how is she

1175
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:04,640
Speaker 3: going to be charged, and the judge can also take

1176
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:09,040
Speaker 3: those mitigating circumstances in terms of the penalty. I think

1177
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 3: my primary problem is is that she had somebody commit murder,

1178
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:17,360
Speaker 3: admits the committing murder, and they're not held responsible. I

1179
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:22,000
Speaker 3: think that the mitigating circumstances could have been used to

1180
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:26,640
Speaker 3: potentially reduce what Elizabeth was convicted of and how long

1181
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 3: her sentence would have been, but I still think she

1182
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:34,360
Speaker 3: needs to be held responsible. That's kind of the position

1183
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:38,200
Speaker 3: where I would come in. This wasn't a self defense

1184
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:42,360
Speaker 3: scenario that sometimes you do see with women that are

1185
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:44,800
Speaker 3: being abused by men, and we don't. It doesn't sound

1186
01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:48,120
Speaker 3: like it got to that level. She is able to

1187
01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:52,080
Speaker 3: take her time and poison Arthur and kill them in

1188
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:55,520
Speaker 3: a very slow, painful way, even though she's young and

1189
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:58,920
Speaker 3: there's those mitigating circumstances. I do feel that she should

1190
01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:03,120
Speaker 3: have at least been responsible, you know, to a point, for.

1191
01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:06,680
Speaker 2: Sure, I agree, but I will point this little bit

1192
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:09,320
Speaker 2: out so you know, we've done stories before about women

1193
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:12,600
Speaker 2: who feel trapped because they're pregnant by their boyfriends who

1194
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:15,600
Speaker 2: they're having an affair with. So if she is pregnant

1195
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:18,680
Speaker 2: in December or January is what they keep pointing to,

1196
01:07:18,720 --> 01:07:23,320
Speaker 2: saying January by month four, I'm assuming that Arthur would

1197
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:26,680
Speaker 2: have started to see signs of this pregnancy by April

1198
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:30,400
Speaker 2: and they're not having sex. I'm presuming I could be wrong.

1199
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:33,200
Speaker 2: Of course there could be obviously for sex. But I

1200
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:35,480
Speaker 2: just wonder if there was like this ticking clock with

1201
01:07:35,520 --> 01:07:39,000
Speaker 2: the pregnancy she doesn't mention that. That would not be

1202
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:42,160
Speaker 2: a good thing for her to mention, obviously, But that's

1203
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:43,919
Speaker 2: what I was thinking in my head this whole time,

1204
01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:46,680
Speaker 2: is she's pregnant, He's going to know it's not his.

1205
01:07:47,240 --> 01:07:48,920
Speaker 2: She's going to get bigger and bigger, and how much

1206
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:51,560
Speaker 2: longer can she hold out on this? And then it

1207
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:54,480
Speaker 2: would have just been fireworks in that small community in Ohio.

1208
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:56,040
Speaker 2: It would have been awful for her.

1209
01:07:56,320 --> 01:07:56,520
Speaker 4: Yep.

1210
01:07:56,680 --> 01:08:01,360
Speaker 2: So yes to mitigating circumstances, no to execute. Yes to

1211
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:05,080
Speaker 2: I guess James leaving and getting out of this. But

1212
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:07,640
Speaker 2: you know, of course, we think James is looped in

1213
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:10,480
Speaker 2: here somehow, some way, and I wonder what happened with

1214
01:08:10,520 --> 01:08:12,960
Speaker 2: his wife and his kids. If she just said, Okay,

1215
01:08:13,160 --> 01:08:14,439
Speaker 2: I'm out of this, that's it.

1216
01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:17,400
Speaker 4: But in the eighteen fifties, it's that grounds for divorce.

1217
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:19,879
Speaker 2: It was like an act of God to get a divorce.

1218
01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:22,040
Speaker 2: I mean you had to go to the state legislature

1219
01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:24,320
Speaker 2: to get a divorce in that time period. I know

1220
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:26,760
Speaker 2: it was really it was really difficult. So you have

1221
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,439
Speaker 2: worked so extraordinarily hard that I think you do need

1222
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:31,960
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks off. So we are on a

1223
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:35,000
Speaker 2: hiatus week next week, are we? I mean, listen, you

1224
01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:37,000
Speaker 2: can come back next week. I'm not going to be here,

1225
01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:40,280
Speaker 2: but I can leave the fireplace on in the cottage.

1226
01:08:41,320 --> 01:08:44,599
Speaker 3: And I can pine for you, hoping that you will see.

1227
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:47,840
Speaker 3: You could step into your cottage there you could just.

1228
01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:49,720
Speaker 2: Make I know, you could fulfill some kind of a

1229
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:51,840
Speaker 2: dream for us to switch roles and you can tell

1230
01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:54,800
Speaker 2: me a story and I can pipe in with different information.

1231
01:08:57,200 --> 01:09:00,920
Speaker 3: There's no way, yeah, I could not hold a candle

1232
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:01,880
Speaker 3: to your storytelling.

1233
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:04,080
Speaker 2: So Paul, Paul, thank you.

1234
01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:04,679
Speaker 1: Well.

1235
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:07,280
Speaker 2: I will see you in two weeks. We'll come back

1236
01:09:07,280 --> 01:09:09,920
Speaker 2: with the case in a completely different era, because I

1237
01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:12,760
Speaker 2: need a break already from the eighteen fifties.

1238
01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:15,400
Speaker 3: For sure, Okay, sounds good. Well, you take care of

1239
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:17,120
Speaker 3: yourself and we'll see in a few weeks.

1240
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:19,799
Speaker 2: Okay.

1241
01:09:22,280 --> 01:09:24,880
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

1242
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:28,360
Speaker 3: Our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com

1243
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:30,200
Speaker 3: slash Buried Bones sources.

1244
01:09:30,400 --> 01:09:32,760
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

1245
01:09:33,040 --> 01:09:37,280
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1246
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:39,840
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1247
01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:42,400
Speaker 4: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1248
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:44,679
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1249
01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:49,080
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1250
01:09:49,360 --> 01:09:52,720
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1251
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:54,000
Speaker 2: Buried Bones pod.

1252
01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:57,000
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1253
01:09:57,000 --> 01:09:59,040
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1254
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:01,000
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available.

1255
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:04,839
Speaker 2: Now, and Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving

1256
01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:07,479
Speaker 2: America's Cold Cases is also available now.

1257
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:11,560
Speaker 3: Listen to Varied Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1258
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:13,560
Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts.