1 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: Pushkin. This show contains adult language and occasional descriptions of violence. 2 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: Please keep that in mind when choosing when and where 3 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: to listen. Previously on death of an artist. So the 4 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: best way to protect him was to respect his wish 5 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,480 Speaker 1: for rural silence, I would say, and also to take 6 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: him at his word. I couldn't establish that she wanted 7 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: to get a divorce as she feared his reaction, and 8 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: I couldn't talk about any of that. How can it 9 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: be that there can be so many curators in these 10 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: institutions and one curator can't say I'm uncomfortable with that show. 11 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: This is press play. I'm Madeline Brand. Let's talk now 12 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: about some bad news that's hit a couple of local museums. 13 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: Mocha Downtown has fired its chief curator, Helen Molesworth. To 14 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: talk about these stories, we have Caroline and Miranda with us. 15 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: She writes the Culture High and Low column for the 16 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: La Times. I think she was an important get for 17 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: Los Angeles at the curatorial level and a scholar who 18 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: was really devoted to rewriting the history of art in 19 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 1: the sense of making sure that it was more inclusive 20 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: of women in particular. She's a feminist art historian as 21 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: well as people of color. Helen was very dedicated to 22 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: the idea that part of her job was to look 23 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: at what had been overlooked. Well, that's me they're talking 24 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: about on the local radio station. Everyone I know listens to. 25 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: To be honest, I still find it embarrassing. I started 26 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: working in junior high school. I've always had a job, 27 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: and I mean like job, job anyway, as you can tell, 28 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: I got fired and if that wasn't bad enough, I 29 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: got fired very publicly, like New York Times coverage. Publicly. Okay, 30 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: So apparently Helen Molesworth clashed with the director of Mocha. 31 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: What were the disagreements about. I think some of it 32 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,679 Speaker 1: came up last month when the artist Marked Grochan, who 33 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: was scheduled to be honored at the gala, ended up 34 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: with drawing his name from the gala, saying that what 35 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: Mocha really needed to do was be honoring somebody else, 36 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: that he would have represented the third white male artist, 37 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: straight white male artist in a row that the museum 38 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: was honoring. And as part of that news, the board 39 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: member Larry Pittman ended up resigning from the board, and 40 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: Larry is a part Colombian painter. He's Latino. He is 41 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: also gay. He came out in the nineteen seventies, and 42 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: he said that he felt that the museum was not 43 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: really as devoted to issues of inclusion and diversity as 44 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: they might be paying lip service to the mission of 45 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: a museum is fundamentally twofold to educate the public about 46 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: art and to decide what art is good enough to 47 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: be saved in perpetuity. This is a nice way of 48 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 1: saying that part of what a museum does is decide 49 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 1: why some art is better than other art, why some 50 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: art is considered great, so great that it's worth the time, money, 51 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: and energy it takes to display, interpret, and save it. 52 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: Honest story made me realize how much DNA museums share 53 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: with courts of law. Both are institutions where the basic 54 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: rules were written centuries ago, and both have been historically 55 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: run by highly educated, affluent white men, experts who come 56 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: together to decide upon the merits of this, that or 57 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: the other piece of evidence. In museums, this work is 58 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: done by curators and the justices. It is done by 59 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: lawyers and judges. The rub is once a decision is made, 60 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: the exhibition opens or the verdict is read, the public 61 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 1: never sees what's been left out. The process itself of curating, 62 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: of adjudicating, of choosing this, but not that this is 63 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,679 Speaker 1: also a process of silencing. We've all done this. There's 64 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: no way to tell a story without leaving something out. 65 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: We have done it with the story we are telling you. 66 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: The question is what are the ramifications of those omissions 67 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: or suppressions. In Animandietta's case, there were at least two 68 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: pockets of silence. There was the historical omission of art 69 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: made by women in museums, and there was the suppression 70 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: of crucial pieces of evidence in the trial. Both would 71 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: have an enormous effect on how her art was understood 72 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: and how people saw her death. I'm your Host Helen 73 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: Molesworth from Pushkin Industries, Something Else and Sony Music Entertainment. 74 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 1: This is Death of an Artist, Episode five. The silencing 75 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: the People versus Andrea stretched over two weeks during the 76 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: winter of nineteen eighty eight. Ironically, Anamandietta's first retrospective exhibition 77 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 1: at the New Museum was closing just as the trial began. 78 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 1: The show had been hastily thrown together by her supporters 79 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: and visitors to that show would have seen photographs of 80 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: her body pressed into the ground, photographs of her stone 81 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: carvings from Cuba, and her delicate drawings of primordial female forms. 82 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: At the trial, however, the defense painted a picture of 83 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: Anna that veered more towards caricature than reality. And I 84 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: remember they asked me these questions, like I guess they 85 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: were trying to establish that she killed herself, like if 86 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: this was some sort of like culminating art piece, that 87 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: she killed herself, which is ridiculous. The strategy started on 88 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: the very first day when Natalia Delgado took the stand. 89 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: When Carl's lawyer Jack Hoffinger questioned Natalia, he didn't ask 90 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: about Carl and Anna's relationship. He wanted to talk about 91 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: Anna's artwork. And they kept talking about impact body impacting 92 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: on the earth. And I could see how they could 93 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,119 Speaker 1: try to make that argument, because she would like press 94 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: herself into the earth, or she would like cover her 95 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: withself with mud and stand against a tree. But thing 96 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: her work was about the human body and all sorts 97 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: of things in nature, and it was not at all 98 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 1: about impacting on the earth. Carl's lawyers insinuated that the 99 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: evidence for suicide was Anna's artwork. Hoffinger suggested that her 100 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: use of blood and earth were signs of an unconscious 101 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: death wish. Never mind. Anna's own explanation of why she 102 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: used blood again, read by artist Tanya Bugera. I started 103 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: immediately using blood, I guess because I think is a 104 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: very powerful, magical thing. I don't see it that's a 105 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: negative force. For Anna. Blood was a way to connect 106 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: art with everyday life. Blood was real and using it 107 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: was a way to make art with the stuff of 108 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: the world, the stuff of the body, not something fake 109 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: or pristine. Anna's friends in the courtroom, such as be 110 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: Ruby Rich, could see where it was all headed. It 111 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: was totally blamed the victim, but with an extra twist. 112 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: It was completely racist. It was constructing an idea of 113 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: this hot blooded latina who drank and misbehaved and quote 114 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: went out a window. It's starting to get ugly, and 115 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: it's all the uglier because it's such an old move. 116 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: If you're a defense lawyer defending a murder, you always 117 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: want to put the dead person on trial. You always 118 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: want to dirty up the victim as much as you can. 119 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: That's Ron Koubi again, the longtime defense lawyer who helped 120 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: us understand some parts of the trial. What he doesn't 121 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: say is that when you put the victim on trial, 122 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: the perpetrator gets to sit silent. And Jack Hoffinger was savvy, 123 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 1: a top notch criminal defense lawyer. His first line of 124 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: attack paint Anna as a drunk. The way that the 125 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: drinking played into the trial was disturbing. The drinking was 126 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: pinned on Anna and not pinned on Carl. How do 127 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: you explain that they were drinking all night together in 128 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: the same room, but her corpse gets the blood alcohol 129 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: test his living body evidently doesn't. Anna had a blood 130 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: alcohol level of zero point one eight, well above the 131 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: legal limit for driving. Notably, no evidence was submitted about 132 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 1: Carl's blood alcohol level. Hoffinger suggested that Anna was so 133 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: drunk she might have accidentally fallen out the window, a 134 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: theory that did not account for the significant height of 135 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: the window sill halfway up her body at least, and 136 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: her well known fear of heights, which her friend Marcia 137 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: Pelle's testified to. But seating doubt was the point. They 138 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 1: weren't trying to prove what happened, They were trying to 139 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: create reasonable doubt if she was drunk. It could have 140 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: been an accident, and if it wasn't an accident, then 141 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: maybe it was a suicide. Here's Lisa Phillips, currently director 142 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: of the New Museum, who attended the trial when she 143 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: was a curator at the Whitney. They used every single 144 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: stereotypical image they could dredge up as some indication that, 145 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: you know, hot blooded, tempestuous, that she would throw herself 146 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,359 Speaker 1: out the window. I don't believe that she committed suicide, 147 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: that's for sure. The suicide theory was, for Anna's supporters, 148 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: completely bogus. It simply did not jibe with Anna's personality. 149 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: To further the suicide theory, Hoffinger also focused on Anna's 150 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: interest in the Afro Cuban religion Santaia. Remember what her 151 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: friend el Triano said about her, that she was not 152 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 1: a Santa that she was interested as a scholar, not 153 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: a practitioner. But Santaria was useful for Carl's case. There 154 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: are no witches in Santaria, but that didn't stop Carl's 155 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: lawyers from using the oldest play in the sexist handbook, 156 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: basically wonder out loud about whether or not she's a witch. 157 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: Carl's attorney, Hoffinger basically based his analysis of why she 158 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: might have commuted suicide on Sandvidia on voodoo, and this 159 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: was very, very disturbing. Huffinger knew Anna had named some 160 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 1: of her artworks after Afro Cuban deities, including one called 161 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: yema Yah. He asked one of her friends about her 162 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: interest in the deity. On the witness stand, the friends 163 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: said yem Yah is a deity that takes flight. She 164 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: was interested in researching it. And in a statement that 165 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: brought a hush over the courtroom, the witness said, yem 166 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: Yah takes flight on September seventh, and everyone knew that 167 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: Anna went out the window on September eighth. Eltriana was 168 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 1: horrified when she heard this testimony. I think he really 169 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: hit below the belt when he decided to speak about 170 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 1: ye my Yah, sort of saying that Anna had conceived 171 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: of her death, saying that she may have done this 172 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: in the context of her artwork. The reason Ella thinks 173 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: this is below the belt is not only is it wrong, 174 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: Yemaya does not take flight. She is a deity connected 175 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: to the ocean and is often imaged as a mermaid. 176 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: It's also highly disrespectful. Yemaya the goddess of motherhood and 177 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: the Ocean, is the highest ranking female deity in Santaria. 178 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: Implying that Anna's interest in Yemaya led to a death 179 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: wish is analogous to wondering if a woman who believes 180 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,959 Speaker 1: in the Virgin Mary is responsible for her son's death 181 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: at the hands of others. Kokofusco, the artist and author 182 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: of Dangerous Moves performance in Politics in Cuba, was also 183 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: horrified when she heard what was unfolding in the courtroom. 184 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: I was having conversations with all these different people about 185 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: the trial, which was very dramatic. I personally did not 186 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: go to the trial. But what I remember that was 187 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: particularly upsetting to me was the utterly racist interpretation of 188 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: her work. This idea that somehow or other, because she 189 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: had really an anthropological interest in Afro Cuban religion, that 190 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: that automatically meant that she was some kind of crazy 191 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: person involved in voodoo. Because the Americans didn't differentiate at 192 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: the time between Santheia and Vulu, even though the roots 193 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: African roots of those two religions are entirely different, but 194 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: they were utilizing stereotypes about voodoo that come from Hollywood 195 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: musicals right about people losing their minds, and that was 196 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: not the relationship that Data had to Santania, which she 197 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 1: studied academically. It was unclear what the judge thought of 198 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: all this, and that mattered a great deal, as the 199 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: verdict rested solely on his opinion. But it was clearly 200 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 1: upsetting to Anna's friends. They believed in her as an artist. 201 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,199 Speaker 1: She wasn't experimenting with voodoo or Santarilla. She was someone 202 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: on the cutting edge of performance in land art, making 203 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: gorgeous work about our relationship to the earth, to the land, 204 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: two ideas of home. She was interested in Stonehenge and 205 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: Egyptian pyramids and Native American rock carvings. Anna's supporters, even 206 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: Robert Katz, who attended every day of the trial, were 207 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: surprised that Karl was allowing Anna to be portrayed as 208 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: someone who was suicidal or crazy. Of course, for the lawyer, 209 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: it was a necessity. Here's what Hoffinger said to Robert Kats. 210 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: He did not encourage any any kind of denigration of 211 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: Anna in any way, shape or form. We did not 212 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: want that, and we did our best not to go 213 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: too far. Even though they'd tried not to go too far. 214 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: Anna's supporters clearly thought they'd sullied Anna's reputation. They'd implied 215 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: she was a drunk. They'd painted a picture of someone 216 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: who was unreasonable, hot headed and out of control, someone 217 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: who was troubled and caused trouble. And part of the 218 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: reason they were able to describe her this way is 219 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: precisely because there are no metaphorical mothers in art history, 220 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: no backdrop of women geniuses to connect her work to. Meanwhile, 221 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: Carl sat silent. Here's El Troiano again. The trial was insulting. 222 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: Watching Carl sitting there reading during the trial was insulting. 223 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: The day of closing arguments coincided with the opening day 224 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: of Carl's exhibition at the Crystal Palace in Madrid, a 225 00:15:55,760 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: soaring nineteenth century pavilion where white cast iron column defintely 226 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: hold up a roof and walls made out of glass. 227 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: The images of the exhibition online look gorgeous. We see 228 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: Andre's somber metal plates on the floor with all of 229 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: this light and air above them. It made me wonder 230 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: about how much of what I love about Carl's work 231 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: is that he broke the do not touch rule? Was 232 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: he able to break that rule because he thought the 233 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: rules didn't apply to him. I thought about how much 234 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: the art world values rule breakers, and I wondered, on 235 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: that last day of the trial if any of the 236 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: visitors in Madrid were thinking about Carl, who was waiting 237 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: in the courtroom to see what, if any, rules would 238 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: apply to him. On February eleventh, nineteen eighty eight, Judge 239 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: Lessinger had a verdict. The players assembled. There was Anna's 240 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: family and friends, a small press contingent, and Carl still 241 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 1: in his workers overalls alone except for his lawyers. When 242 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,199 Speaker 1: the judge took his bench, the courtroom was silent. The 243 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 1: judge said, quote, I have concluded that the evidence has 244 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:25,959 Speaker 1: not satisfied me beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant 245 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: is guilty. Carl Andre had been acquitted. As the courtroom emptied, 246 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: reporters gathered around Anna's family and listened as Anna's mother said, 247 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: I know he killed my daughter. Meanwhile, Carl and his 248 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: lawyer were also surrounded by reporters. Carl's only comment, justice 249 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: has been served. Carl's lawyer, Jack Hoffinger, later talked to 250 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: Robert Katz about the outcome. This was a very important 251 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 1: case because what it proved was that the system works 252 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: because that system, that trial pertects us against unfair accusations, 253 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: every one of us, You, me, everyone else. Carl shared 254 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 1: the news of his acquittal with his friends Saul and 255 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: Carol LeWitt. He said that justice has been done, I 256 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 1: said I regulations all. While a civil case requires a 257 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: preponderance of evidence, criminal trials demand an even higher form 258 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 1: of proof. Guilt must be established beyond a reasonable doubt. 259 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: This means no other plausible explanation can be gleaned from 260 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: the evidence that makes it to trial. Here's Ron Koubie, 261 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: the defense lawyer. Again, the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. 262 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: The promise most people don't make decisions in their life 263 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: based on proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Basically, regular people 264 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 1: on a jury are used to making decisions based on 265 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: what they think makes the most sense, using the information 266 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: they have, whereas a judge is accustomed to using a 267 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: higher standard of not just reasonable, but beyond a reasonable doubt. 268 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 1: And so when you have somebody who the jury is 269 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 1: not gonna like, who already looks squirrely because of what 270 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,919 Speaker 1: he perveys for a living, and who probably did it, 271 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: that person is probably going to be convicted again. Judges 272 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: tend to apply that beyond a reasonable doubt standard more 273 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: carefully in a case like this, they recognize this evidence 274 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: is circumstantial. Judges tend to be more meticulous about what 275 00:19:55,359 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: a reasonable doubt is. I for sure understand his point. 276 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: There's an ethical elegance to reasonable doubt and its presumptions 277 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: of innocence until proven guilty. My problem is I have 278 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: what I consider to be reasonable doubt about Carl Andre's 279 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: not guilty verdict. And one of the many reasons I'm 280 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: skeptical is because there is no official record that any 281 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:29,360 Speaker 1: of this happened. When Carl was acquitted, his trial records 282 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: were permanently sealed. Not even the Freedom of Information Act 283 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,360 Speaker 1: can open them. And we tried pretty hard to get 284 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: these records, but it turns out the only person who 285 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 1: can open them is Carl. This means all of the 286 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 1: evidence from the nine one one call to the polaroids 287 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: of the scratches is now gone from public view. All 288 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: of the case documents in the hands of the police, 289 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: the DA's office, and in the courts are unattainable to 290 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: lay people in any fashion whatsoever. Even their existence will 291 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 1: not be confirmed. This is how New York State protects 292 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: those found not guilty. I have a lot of trouble 293 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 1: accepting this. None of Carl's friends at the trial to 294 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 1: hear what might have happened. Carl never takes the stand 295 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: and never had to answer a single question publicly. Carl 296 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: would go more than two decades without saying anything publicly 297 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: about Anna. Silence was the play, and it worked. Carl 298 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: Andre is an extremely private person, as you may have guessed. 299 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 1: I mean, he doesn't want his photograph taken. You can 300 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 1: publicize his works, but you can't talk about his private 301 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: life with him. He won't talk to you about it. 302 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: I mean, that's a publication, if you know what I mean. 303 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: He might talk if your friends, but doesn't want the 304 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,199 Speaker 1: world to be And one of the horrors of this 305 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,120 Speaker 1: case is that to some extent, his life and her 306 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: life would publicize, which is not something he wanted to do. 307 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: That's Carl's lawyer, Jack Hoffer again. And it's certainly true 308 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: that Carl steered clear of the press for a very 309 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: long time. But when The New Yorker and the New 310 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: York Times came calling in advance of his big retrospective exhibition, 311 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 1: his opposition to discussing his private affairs did not hold. 312 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: He answered questions, he allowed his photo to be taken. 313 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 1: He even appeared in a short video made by the newspaper. 314 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: But I must say, as I have grown older, my 315 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: physical capacities have been very much reduced. So I used 316 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: to be able to sling those timbers around like nothing 317 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: at all, and I don't want to try nowadays. In 318 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: the years immediately following the verdict, Honest supporters spoke openly 319 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,719 Speaker 1: about the investigation, the trial, and the acquittal. Friends and 320 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: family spoke to Robert Katz for his book Naked by 321 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 1: the Window, and his interviews, combined with the fact that 322 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: he had both seen the documents that were now sealed 323 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: and had attended every day of the trial, meant Katz 324 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: was the only person who knew the whole story, such 325 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: as it could be told. When the book came out 326 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety, there was a small flurry of press, 327 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: but even though his book was exhaustively researched, he and 328 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: a colleague together conducted more than two hundred interviews. I've 329 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: heard more than one art world insider referred to it 330 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: as quote but horrible book because it was written in 331 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: the language of journalism. Many people thought it was sensational 332 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 1: and unnuanced. He was an outsider who just didn't get it, 333 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 1: and being skeptical about the way the book was written 334 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 1: meant folks didn't have to grapple with its conclusions. And 335 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: then life went on. Carl spent time in Europe. He 336 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 1: continued to live in the same apartment, he remarried, he 337 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,479 Speaker 1: showed at the same galleries. He still made art, and 338 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 1: his work continued to sell well. Number two seventeen is next. 339 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 1: This is the Carlandre nineteen prime rectile that's worked from 340 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven, and it's opened this now at one 341 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: ten one twenty one hundred and thirty thousand dollars. So 342 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: while Carl's story might have made some folks uneasy as 343 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 1: a story, as a problem, it moved to the background. 344 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,479 Speaker 1: There was less and less talk about what happened, and 345 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: eventually most of honest supporters stopped talking about Carl and 346 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: the trial too. It's like he's been scrubbed from the record. 347 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: They'd rather talk about her art in her life, they'd 348 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,239 Speaker 1: rather secure her legacy, and they'd prefer to do so 349 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: in a context that doesn't include Carl, who can blame them, 350 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: even if oddly it contributes to the silence. It wasn't 351 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 1: until there was another extremely horrible and very public accusation 352 00:24:54,560 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: of espousal murder, but the conversation would be reignited. We 353 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: the jury and the aboved entitle action find the defendant 354 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 1: Ornhal Jane Simpson not guilty of the crime of murder. 355 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 1: Across the nation and around the world, virtually everyone watched 356 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: as judgment day came swiftly for OJ Simpson. Remember the 357 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 1: Gorilla Girls, the anonymous group of feminist artists dedicated to 358 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: calling out the sexism of the art world. The O. J. 359 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: Simpson acquittal inspired them to make another poster, so we thought, well, 360 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: let's bring this up again, because it really was a 361 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: related situation. It was clear that something went on between 362 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 1: Carl Andrea Anamantia and she ended up dead and O J. 363 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: Two and both of them got off the hook. That's 364 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: one of the Gorilla Girls. They made a poster in 365 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five that placed a snapshot of Carl in 366 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: profile next to a head shot of one of the 367 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 1: most famous and celebrated athletes in the world. O. J. 368 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: Simpson reasoned across the top was the question what do 369 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 1: these men have in common? What do these men have 370 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: in common? Every fifteen seconds, another woman as assaulted by 371 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: her husband or boyfriend. Some of these assaults end in murder. 372 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: Usually there are no eyewitnesses to these crimes. Unlike their 373 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 1: other posters, there was no humor, no sly commentary, nothing 374 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: to ameliorate the pain. There was something very stark about 375 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: seeing Carl's face right next to OJ's, but comparison was undeniable, 376 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: and it seemed to puncture any exceptionalism the art world 377 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 1: was banking on for itself. These would have gone up 378 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: around Soho and in the East Village, where there were 379 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: a lot of artists living and a lot of fledgling galleries. 380 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,159 Speaker 1: The Guerrilla Girls were directly linking Anna's death to the 381 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: increasing awareness of domestic violence, an issue that had just 382 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: begun to be part of a public conversation. The Oj 383 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 1: simpsonral was on TV all the time, and the story 384 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 1: of domestic violence and domestic violence homicides went from the 385 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: back page to the front page. This is Este Solare, 386 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 1: one of the women behind the nineteen ninety four Violence 387 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 1: Against Women Act, the first bill to fully address domestic violence. 388 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 1: She worked the halls of Congress hard in the nineteen 389 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 1: eighties and had to endure one congressman calling it the 390 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: quote take fun out of Marriage Act. And people started 391 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: really talking about the fact that so many other women 392 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: were victims of domestic violence, and people were given license 393 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: to come out and talk about it more as well, 394 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: because it was such a public narrative. Before, oj Esta 395 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: practically had to beg newspapers and news outlets to write 396 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: about domestic violence. Now her phone was ringing off the hook. 397 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: It was absolutely clear he was guilty. The court said 398 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 1: he was innocent, and I've spent a lot of time 399 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: with Nicole's family and they don't think he's innocent at all. 400 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: Whatever the court said, the trial nevertheless put domestic violence 401 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 1: and spousal homicide front and center. The trial and the 402 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: story was transformative in terms of how the US warhold 403 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 1: really saw the issue of domestic violence again. It really 404 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 1: took on, Oh my god, this is really a serious problem. 405 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,199 Speaker 1: It was a turning point. The issue went from the 406 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: privacy to the public sphere pretty dramatically. The Gorilla Girls 407 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: suggested that on a story wasn't merely a unique instance 408 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: depending on how you saw it of a drunken accident, suicide, 409 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: or an argument gone wrong. Honest story was part of 410 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: a much larger social problem. More than ninety percent of 411 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: women who are murdered are killed by when they know 412 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: the perpetrators are often their husbands, boyfriends, or exes. But 413 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: the awareness of domestic violence as an issue was just 414 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: starting to be named as a problem when Anna died. 415 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,479 Speaker 1: Early on and the eighties and the late seventies, women 416 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: were being beaten and battered and most people didn't know 417 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: about it. It was private, it was silent, it was hidden, 418 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: and more than that, more than that, they were often 419 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: blamed for what happened to them. So it was a 420 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: combination of feeling invisible and also responsible. Before Nicole Brown 421 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: Simpson's death made domestic violence visible, it was typically considered 422 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: a private matter, and because it was private, it was 423 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,479 Speaker 1: not to be spoken about publicly. This silence almost always 424 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: benefited the aggressor rather than the victim, and while Oj 425 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: wasn't convicted because of this visibility, he suffered consequences, Carl 426 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: did not. He lost his endorsements, his television and movie 427 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: appearances evaporated. He was effectively shunned. The art world took 428 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: no such extra judicial measures. If you look at Carl's resume, 429 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: easily available on his personal website, you'll find that he 430 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: has exhibited often multiple times, every single year since nineteen 431 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: eighty five. His shows were reviewed in the New York Times, 432 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: and then in twenty eleven he landed a coveted profile 433 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: in The New Yorker. It felt like an attempt to 434 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: revise his reputation before he got the biggest feather in 435 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: any artist's cap a major museum retrospective. And it was 436 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: in the New Yorker profile where he finally broke his 437 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: silence and offered the following version of what happened that night. 438 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: Here's what he said, read by a voice actor. I 439 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: was asleep. I was in bed, and when I heard 440 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: cries of no, no, no, it had been quite balmy, 441 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: like eighty degrees, and the temperature went down to about 442 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: sixty All of a sudden, what Anna did was to 443 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: get up and start closing the windows because cold air 444 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: was blowing in. Anna had to climb up. She was 445 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: barely five feet. To close those windows, you had to 446 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: do it from the middle so they wouldn't jam, and 447 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: in trying to close those windows, she just lost her balance. 448 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: This is Carl's a fourth version of what happened, and 449 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: it's entirely different from the previous versions. Is it really 450 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 1: any wonder that so many people still don't believe him? 451 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: An artist named Elise Rasmussen even researched the story and 452 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: check the weather for September eighth, nineteen eighty five, No 453 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: big temperature drop occurred. Was the power structure of the 454 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: art world really deaf to the protests of so many women? 455 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: Did white men hold so much power that they can 456 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: continually change their story and still expect everyone to take 457 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: their word for it. Did Carl's calling it an accident 458 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: after twenty years somehow make the art world think that 459 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: it was outside of or above the problem of domestic violence? 460 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 1: Did we think we were that different from everyone else? Yeah, 461 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: so you have an inda, I do okay. Doctor Kelly 462 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: Morgan is a scholar turned curator who also had a 463 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,479 Speaker 1: dramatic departure from her job. I wanted to talk to 464 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: her because she and I had pretty much opposite instincts 465 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: about how to handle things. When it all went down 466 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: for me in twenty eighteen, My first instinct was silence, 467 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: and that was pretty much the only thing me and 468 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: the museum agreed upon. Hence the NDA, which for those 469 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: listeners without one, is a non disclosure agreement. Another method 470 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: of procuring silence. What do you think breaking your silence 471 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: would mean having the power that you have in the 472 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: field and the reverence that you have in the field. 473 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 1: Part of my silence in the wake of being fired 474 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 1: was I didn't know how to actually tell the story. 475 00:33:53,760 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: And part of it is fear that people would come 476 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: at me in a variety of ways, financial or reputational. 477 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: My first worry was money, how would I pay my bills? 478 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,760 Speaker 1: As for the reputational stuff, I knew what could happen 479 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: to strong willed women in the press. Kelly also felt 480 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: the fear, but silence was not her play. I asked 481 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: her to tell me what happened that led up to 482 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 1: her dramatic exit from the Newfield's Museum in Indiana. It 483 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 1: was a lot of things, but the tipping point came 484 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: at an acquisitions meeting, the meeting during which the curators 485 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: present works of art that they think are good enough 486 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:45,399 Speaker 1: to display and save. In these meetings, curators typically make 487 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: a deeply researched presentation on the artist's work to a 488 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 1: committee of collectors and philanthropists whose job it is is 489 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,919 Speaker 1: to provide the funds for the purchase. So we get 490 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: to this meeting. The vase has Colin Kaepernick on one side, 491 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 1: John Brown on the other side. Is called the Expulsion 492 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: of Colin Kaepernick, and we're discussing it, and we has 493 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 1: a very like a high level donor, and he just 494 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: goes on this rant about, you know, Colin Kaepernick was 495 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,799 Speaker 1: wrong and African Americans don't use their money correctly, and 496 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 1: just like all of the races, neoliberal capitalist bullshit. So 497 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 1: I get up and walk out of the room. And 498 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: then the subsequent response, you know, from leadership, because he 499 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 1: was such a high level donor, was that I had 500 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: just acted unprofessionally. In two decades of museum work, I 501 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: have never seen a curator walk out of a meeting 502 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: with trustees. I can't lie. I kind of wish I 503 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: had been there to watch Kelly's rebellion. Ultimately, she decided 504 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: that walking out wasn't enough, so she wrote an essay 505 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:56,240 Speaker 1: about racism in art museums. The essay pretty much discusses 506 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,080 Speaker 1: the nature of white supremacy culture as I've experienced and 507 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:05,720 Speaker 1: sit in art museums and then before she could get fired, 508 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: she sent her boss, as well as all of her 509 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: colleagues and the local press, a scathing resignation letter that 510 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: called out the racism she'd been experiencing on the daily. 511 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: I went to the press because I was just kind 512 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: of sick and tired, you know, of how bad things 513 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: were going. And it was something that happens to all 514 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: museum professionals to some degree, whether it's class discrimination, gender discrimination, 515 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: racial sexual discrimination. There's a history, there's a tradition, and 516 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: I kept thinking that eventually I would get some like 517 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,800 Speaker 1: Ceason desist letter. She never did get a season desist, 518 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: but what did come was a barrage of casual slander 519 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 1: and some very real death threats. And there's a very 520 00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 1: prominent arts leader who has no problem, you know, telling anybody, 521 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 1: like at a party or a dinner or like you know, 522 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: on a zoom call or whatever, that he feels like 523 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: I desire to be shout at a vase, and that 524 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: his several people call, let's say, are you aware you 525 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 1: know that this person is like saying this stuff for us? 526 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 1: And yeah, I know. I envy Kelly's courage and ability 527 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,840 Speaker 1: to speak freely about her experience, though it pains me 528 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: deeply that she has such stories to tell. We all 529 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: know that speaking up has real consequences. It's why so 530 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,840 Speaker 1: many victims of domestic violence stay quiet. It's why the 531 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 1: Gorilla Girls are anonymous. But there's a difference between those 532 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 1: who are silenced and those who choose to stay silent. 533 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: And by now it's clear that the silence that calls 534 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,280 Speaker 1: me the most is carl Andres. He didn't take the stand, 535 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,760 Speaker 1: He didn't provide an explanation to honest family or her friends. 536 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 1: He had no words for the community. He was such 537 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: a prominent member of a community torn apart by what happened. 538 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,320 Speaker 1: The records of the trial were permanently sealed, and according 539 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: to Robert Catz, the strategy was to maintain this silence 540 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,360 Speaker 1: moving forward toward the end of Naked by the Window. 541 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,880 Speaker 1: He wrote quote. Sometime after the trial, a meeting was 542 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 1: held to the Paula. Cooper Gallery, where it was decided 543 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: that no one among the participants would ever again speak 544 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,840 Speaker 1: of the case. So, in a last ditch effort to 545 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: see if we could crack the wall of silence, my 546 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 1: producer suggested we go to Carl Andre's apartment to see 547 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 1: if he'd talked to us face to face. It's a 548 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: huge building and it's about fifteen floors higher than any 549 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 1: other building. Yes, it's around much taller than it's neighbors. 550 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,840 Speaker 1: It's really disturbing how high it is. All right, revolving 551 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: door here, We got hi? How are you? That's next 552 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 1: time on Death of an Artist. Death of an Artist 553 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 1: is a co production between Pushkin Industries, Something Else and 554 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 1: Sony Music Entertainment. Written and hosted by me Helen Muldsworth. 555 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: Executive producers are Lizzie Jacobs, Tom kinig Leetel Mulad, Jacob 556 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 1: Weisberg and Lucas Werner. Produced by Maria Luisa Tucker, editing 557 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: by Lizzie Jacobs. Our managing producer is Jacob Smith. Associate 558 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: producers are Pooge Rue and Eloise Linton. Additional production helped 559 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 1: by Tally Abacassas. Voice acting by Nick Barrain. Anna Mendieta's 560 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,359 Speaker 1: quotes were read by Tanya Brigera, engineered by Sam Bare, 561 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:54,120 Speaker 1: fact checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. Our theme song is 562 00:39:54,160 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 1: by Pooge Rue. If you love this show, consider subscribing 563 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,359 Speaker 1: to Pushkin Plus to listen early add free and get 564 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,719 Speaker 1: exclusive bonus content. Look for the Pushkin Plus channel on 565 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot fm. Find more great 566 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 1: podcasts from Sonymusic Entertainment at sonymusic dot com. Backslash Podcasts