1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: Which is anonymous with the Laria Baldwin and Michelle Campbell 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 1: Mason and I heart radio podcast, Hey, which is welcome back. 3 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: I'm Laria and I'm Michelle. Today we have a guest 4 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: that we are beyond thrilled to be welcoming. She's the 5 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 1: reason we met each other. She's the reason we started 6 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: this show. She is a doctor, a sociologist. She's has 7 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: twenty books that she has written. Let's get started with 8 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: none other than Dr Phyllis Chessler. Hi. My name is 9 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: Dr Phillis Chessler. I'm an author of twenty books, a 10 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: second wave feminist, a troublemaker and activist. And I am 11 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: so pleased to be here with you. Can I tell 12 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,599 Speaker 1: you you are the reason we are doing this and 13 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: you are the reason that we have You know that 14 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: we became friends, that Michelle and I became friends, it's 15 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: because of you, and so we're just like the we. 16 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: This this of have you here in this space is 17 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: just like very making me give me butterflies. And I 18 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: think it's where the people tell you, like how you 19 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: change their lives, because we never know how our life 20 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: can be changed by someone else's happenstance. But just thank 21 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: you for that. It is my privilege, it's my pleasure. 22 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,479 Speaker 1: And because of you, sister, which is because of you. 23 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 1: I started read reading Woman's and Humanity to Woman, which 24 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:32,839 Speaker 1: I've never read. I'm blown away. It is good, as 25 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: you've said. So we're so feased to have you on 26 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:41,199 Speaker 1: talk to us about what is women's in humanity to women? Well, 27 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: like men, women are human beings and therefore we're as 28 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: close to the apes as to the angels. We are 29 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: not perfect. We have been maligned, which is then a 30 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: problem when we start telling the truth about how women 31 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: compete with each other, not with end but with each other, 32 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: and how they slander and shun and ostracize a woman 33 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: who was quote different, or who was prettier, or who 34 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: has more money, or who's going out with the best 35 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: guy in high school. So um, it's the internalization of sexism, 36 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,519 Speaker 1: not just by men, but by women too. Women uphold 37 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: the same standards which persecute and discriminate against other women, 38 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: and that's global. I mean when I was doing interviews 39 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: when this book first came out, the reporters would say 40 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: to me, how did you know about mothers and daughters 41 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: in Nepal or in Brazil, and I said, well, because 42 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: we're it's human nature, and it's global, it's everywhere. So 43 00:02:55,520 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: in the beginning, when I first understood it, I had 44 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: to write this book. It was a friend and an 45 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: ally who totally did something so terrible to me that 46 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: I I hit the floor. I didn't expect this to 47 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: ever happen. And then I realized, I can't personalize it, 48 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: and I have to use it. I have to be 49 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: productive with this new information. And it took me twenty 50 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: years on and off, researching it and doing many, many interviews, 51 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: and in the beginning, the feminist not everyone, but feminist 52 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: leaders of my generation, the second wave, said, don't do that. 53 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: And what their concern was is that since women have 54 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: been seen as bitches and lunatics, and which is an 55 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: untrustworthy and no respect coming all way, why should we 56 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: then add to that We should instead say that we're 57 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: compassionate and altruists, stick and maternal. But that's not true. 58 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: Some of us are to our own children, but we 59 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: are not necessarily the same way towards other adult women, 60 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: and um many examples exist. So initially the feminist support 61 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: that I yearned for I didn't really get. They were 62 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: afraid that men would use it against us, and they'd say, 63 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: we always knew that. You know, that's not new. Everyone 64 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: knows that women are terrible. So I waited and I read, 65 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: and I thought, and I interviewed, and the interviews were 66 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: amazing because women were dying to talk to me about 67 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,799 Speaker 1: how another woman did her down, did her and stole 68 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: her boyfriend, stole her husband, stole her children, stole her job, 69 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: wrecked her reputation, very happy to talk about it. And 70 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: at the end, I would say, by the way, were 71 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: you ever part of the group that um shunned another 72 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:10,119 Speaker 1: woman or slanted her or betrayed her? Total amnesia, no, 73 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: no memory. Why because women are not supposed to be aggressive. 74 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: If we are, it's not as important as mail aggression 75 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: because that's so much bigger and so much more violent physically. 76 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: So what we do psychologically and socially is seen as 77 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: not that, not that bad, and um, we don't really 78 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: want to talk about it because it's not nice. And 79 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: you know right that girls are trained to try to 80 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: appear nice, and that niceness covers up, um a fewards, 81 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: a grudge, rage, and a desire to kill socially another woman. 82 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: So now you tell me why you have turned to 83 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: this subject. What's happened to you? Well? I came to 84 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: it when I realized that a large group of of women, 85 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: not as large as you think, we're bullying me online. 86 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: And when I found out that it was other women, 87 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 1: it was like somebody punched me in the stomach, and 88 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: I thought, oh my goodness. I was kind of soul 89 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: searching and sort of figuring out, what is this that 90 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: makes us so competitive? Now I'm going to take another step, 91 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 1: and I'm going to say I have been the mean 92 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: girl we all have been. And reading the first chapter 93 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: of your book, the introduction in the first chapter where 94 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: you talk about how people told you not like you said, 95 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: people told you not to write the book, don't tell 96 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: them that where you can be mean, don't do it. 97 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: We're not supposed to say that, but I think if 98 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 1: we don't address this, we are never going to move 99 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: the dial at all towards equality. It's like talking about racism. 100 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: We wouldn't say, um, you have to work on resisting 101 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: your internalized racism, sexism? What have you every day in 102 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: small ways in large ways. If you don't acknowledge it, 103 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: if you really don't want to do something about it, 104 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: nothing will have a change, and you'll have mothers bringing 105 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: little girls to have female genital mutilation. You'll have women 106 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: supporting the on the killing of their daughters right and 107 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: of other young women, and you'll have what you described. 108 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: You'll have out of envy and despair because women feel 109 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: that they're ugly and that they're not chosen by the prince, 110 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: and that their lives are hell. Even if it's not realistic, 111 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: it's what they feel. So that the cheerleader has friends, 112 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: the movie star has male friends because other women are 113 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: jealous because they feel if she succeeded, I'm bound to fail. 114 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: It's it's as if women haven't been team players from 115 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: the childhood on and they don't understand that if one 116 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: woman makes the basket, that everybody wins. We have not 117 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: had that experience. We only know that only one woman 118 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: can be mis America, only one woman can be the queen, 119 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: only one woman can win the part. And so that's 120 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 1: and then look at the internet, as you just said, 121 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: has opened up a world of pain, so that teenage 122 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: girls are uh advice to commit suicide. You know that 123 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: they're so hey to kill yourself, and some have and 124 00:08:55,800 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: it's other girls and the mothers of other girls. So 125 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: there's a meanness and the mean girls syndrome, which when 126 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: Women's in Humanity came out, a few books came out 127 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: at the same time, but only about teenage girls, and 128 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,199 Speaker 1: I was thinking, I have just one chapter on that, 129 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: because these girls grow up and become adult women and 130 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: don't get better and don't change. So you're right, if 131 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 1: we don't admit it and come to grips with it, 132 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: nothing will have a change. There's this great quote um 133 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: I pulled from the book Women expressed disapproval by disconnecting 134 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: both verbally and energetically, and I thought that was so 135 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: profound because it's so true. It it just, you know, 136 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 1: kind of exacerbates the isolation that you feel when you 137 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: are the one on the receiving end of this behavior. 138 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: And it's so interesting because now we have social media 139 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: to take into account with this, and this is obviously 140 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: something that we combat on this show and Hilaria combats 141 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: and we're all experiencing so much with online trolling. But 142 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: it's almost like that turned on its head because of 143 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: the cloak of anonymity online. So it's I think that's 144 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: a really interesting Cowards who don't give their names feel 145 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: unleashed and empowered to do these things. Their bullies and cowards, 146 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: and it's it's a real problem because it takes a toll. 147 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 1: But you know, women don't want to be abandoned and 148 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: they want to be part of a group or a clique. 149 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: So if you have a difference with another woman, you 150 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: want to smooth it over and pretend it doesn't happen, 151 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: it doesn't exist. And how can we become independent thinkers 152 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: and heroes and warriors if we're afraid to tell the 153 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: next woman in our group what we really think and 154 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: we disagree with her. So women don't know. In fact, 155 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: in my first book So Long Ago, Women in Madness, 156 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: I wrote about the importance of women learning to not 157 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: just tolerate differences, but to celebrate them. And fifty years 158 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: later or more, that hasn't exactly happened. I mean, think 159 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: of mothers and daughters. If a daughter is really different 160 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: from her mother, if she's not and her mother is traditional, 161 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: for example, she's they're gonna the mother will feel abandoned. 162 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: The daughter will feel abandoned by the mother because they're 163 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: very different, and they're afraid. If these differences persist or grow, 164 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 1: it will mean detachment, just as you said, they will disconnect. 165 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: It's so interesting. That's that's so interesting. I feel, you know, 166 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: it's something you said before and this as well, that 167 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: there's something about um holding each other to a code 168 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: of context. So in so many ways, as you said, 169 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: we're not taught to be team players. Where I mean, 170 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: I have three plus my my stepdaughter, four girls, and 171 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,839 Speaker 1: I have four boys, and even seeing the activities as 172 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: little children that they are encouraged to do. My boys 173 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: are encouraged to do team sports and my girls are 174 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: encouraged to do individual activities. In gymnastics, well, you have 175 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: to be the one, the one there, whereas you know, 176 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: the boys are going and playing basketball, which you have 177 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: to eat. The whole team needs to win. And so 178 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: we're even we're teaching this to our kids as they're 179 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: as they're very young, and we're telling the girls very 180 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: confusing you have to be the best at this. But 181 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: if you're the best, then you're breaking away from the 182 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: group and your targets, so you're gonna be shot down. 183 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: It's a very difficult dance to do. And so talk 184 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: to us a little bit about holding each other to 185 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: the code of you know what you were saying with 186 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 1: mothers and daughters. If I break away, then I don't 187 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,599 Speaker 1: have that connection. Well, what women are held to a 188 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: much highest standard than men are, and men are forgive 189 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: them when they make mistakes. If another woman makes a mistake, 190 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: a small one, a big one, we have a grudge 191 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: against her. It's fastest forever, and we get her or 192 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: we disconnect with her. So we don't know how to 193 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: express our anger or our disappointment directly and then let 194 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: it go. Let it go. But I want to go 195 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: back to how you begin. Um. I have a son 196 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,959 Speaker 1: I don't have daughters. And he was maybe about eight 197 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: years old, and he would come home after school with 198 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: other little boys and they go in the backyard and 199 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,079 Speaker 1: they would fight. They run around and they'd hit each other. 200 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: They thought, I think it don't ever be back. Oh 201 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: they were back for the next day. Now, the little 202 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: girls from his classes who lived on the block or nearby, 203 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: they had one best friend. They didn't talk to anyone else. 204 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: It was a privileged di atic or relationship like a 205 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: mother daughter relationship. And then one day they never spoke again, 206 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: and they had new best friends. If at all they 207 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: spoke against each other. And I'm looking at this and thinking, 208 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: is this hard wired? Is it possible? And it is 209 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: civilization capable of going against it? If to the extent 210 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: of which it's hard wired. I mean, the boys were 211 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: just physical. They were aggressive, they were physical, but they 212 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: were bonded and this is what they like to do. 213 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: And the girls and needed in depth intimacy with one 214 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: best friend. And I think we all do and it 215 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: might be part of our undoing because if you manage, 216 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: and it's not easy to have a friendship with the 217 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: way men do. Nothing's personal. Um, it's a kind of 218 00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: a mid distance friendship. It doesn't have deep depth intimacy, 219 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: but it's stable. Women we want deep, deep and we 220 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: can't give it up. We really want to confess everything 221 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: and express everything and listen to everything. And then if 222 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: one of us turns against the other, she has all 223 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: the information, doesn't she. You know, all the bodies buried. 224 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: So the price that we pay for this intimacy that 225 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:30,359 Speaker 1: we crave is betrayal. And we don't know how to 226 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: me too, I'm just as guilty as the next woman. 227 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: I would prefer a deep friendship. I now see that 228 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: it's safer and more stable and wiser to have a 229 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: middle ground friendship, you know, And even the way I 230 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: say it, it's like a disappointment, right, what's interesting. I mean, 231 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: if you think about that, it's just like you're throwing 232 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: yourself on the fire to have that intimate connection in essence, 233 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: because ultimately they can use that against you. Um. I did. 234 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: Per You're discussing how little girls can have these dietic 235 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: friendships that are so so cohesive and contained and then 236 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: they're gone. Um, And I think we've all experienced that 237 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: and how devastating it can be. But in that lens, 238 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: can you explain to us the difference between direct aggression 239 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: and indirect aggression with women? So indirect aggression, which began 240 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: to be studied seriously by the end of the nineteen eighties, 241 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: means the slandering, the shunning, the grudge holding. There are 242 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: amazing studies and I'm so glad that I waited for 243 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: them to appear, and I write about them in Woman's 244 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: and Humanity Woman And so this is where all power is. Gossip, Oh, gossip. 245 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: When we gossip, we don't necessarily do it because we 246 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: love the woman we're talking about. Wanta in every way 247 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: to protect on her note, we gossip to say, hey, 248 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: you know what I got on her? Listen to this. 249 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: Guess who I saw with him where I saw her, 250 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 1: And that gossip in certain cultures leads to the death 251 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: of that or that girl in an honor killing, or 252 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 1: to her being divorced, which can be also equivalent to 253 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: death of some kind. Because this is a phenomenon that's 254 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: very global, it's not just specific to America. In the 255 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 1: feminist movement, we wanted so much to be sisters because 256 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: we've never had that. All of our intellectual mentors and 257 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,880 Speaker 1: the books we were assigned to read were written by men. 258 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: And so to think that women had ideas that was 259 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: so worthy, that were riveting, that were even better than 260 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: everything else, it was so sweet. And I write about 261 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,439 Speaker 1: is in a book called a Politically Incorrect Feminists that 262 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: that's me and um, it was so sweet that as 263 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: we began bad mouthing each other or trashing each other 264 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: ideologically personally for whatever said of reasons, we had no 265 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 1: name for it. You didn't know. We denied it. That's 266 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: how we handled it. It's not really happening. She deserved it. 267 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: It didn't happen to me and so on. So indirect 268 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: aggression is the name for it, and just because it's 269 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: indirect and not homicidal doesn't mean it's not as deep 270 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: or as consequential as male aggression. How much of this 271 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: do you think is nurture versus nature? It's really hard 272 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: to say. I mean, scientifically, there's definitely. I give some 273 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: examples in chapter two of Woman's in Humanity and Woman 274 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: of Apes, primates behaving in ways that are that are 275 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: very familiar to us as human beings. It's embarrassing, like 276 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: a primate who kills the baby of another woman primate 277 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: so that she can have her as the nanny. I 278 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: mean what you know, I mean last warfare, for survival, 279 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 1: for survival. And then there's examples of the bonnabows you know, 280 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 1: who do all kinds of woman to woman friendly stuff. 281 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: But you know, as she was speaking, Hill Area, women 282 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: are not just passionate and and and wanting intimate connectivity. 283 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: We're also very sensitive and we want to be liked, 284 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: and we don't want to displease anyone. We're pleases, not superficially, 285 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 1: we really want to please and sometimes appease danger, appease violence. 286 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: So when we begin to get I mean, I was 287 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: not gonna laugh. But try writing a book. You write 288 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: a book and then it gets reviews and you read 289 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: that you should never read the reviews of us, but 290 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 1: everybody does. You read reviews. This is a crazy book. 291 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 1: This is a fully written book. This is a man 292 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 1: hating book. This is a shrill book. That those were 293 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: the words that all the early feminists, great works, you know, received. 294 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 1: So but it's it's not just women, it's right, it's 295 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 1: including women writers. You know. Just she can't right, you know, 296 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: she stupid, She should not the publishers should leave her 297 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: alone and not publish her ever again me which often happens. 298 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: So there's this internet troll disaster, and then there's very 299 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 1: real life economic consequences, not that I'm minimizing the men 300 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 1: health consequences, I'm not. But then you lose your job 301 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: and you can't feed your kids, and you go down. 302 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 1: So this is a power that girls and women have. 303 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: In fact, I reanalyzed Carol Gilligan's research and what was 304 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: interesting important is that why did little girls suddenly become 305 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: silent and go with the flow and go with the crowd, 306 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: the herd mentality. It's because not because men or boys 307 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: were threatening them. It's because they didn't want to be 308 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: targeted by the other little girls. So they tried to 309 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: figure out what's the right thing to say. And once 310 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 1: you start doing that and get used to doing it, 311 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: or you never have an independent thought in your life, 312 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: and as you do, you hide it. So I would say, 313 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: I would say this, So what is to be done? 314 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: What could we do? That was? The first thing is 315 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: to accept very humbly, that change is a process, that 316 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: this can't be changed quickly, that consciousness alone aha may 317 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: not be enough. But the second thing is what you've 318 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: been doing, to acknowledge, not deny, not cover up, not 319 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 1: be afraid of the truth. I mean, the truth is 320 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: that thing that's supposed to set us free. Right. But 321 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: then as women we have to become strong, really strong 322 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:48,959 Speaker 1: strong egos, strong selves, strong enough to be able to 323 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: take being criticized and to deal with it and not 324 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: to personalize it. We personalize. A woman disagrees with us, 325 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: tells us off would have on the floor. A man says, oh, 326 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: screw you, that's what you think I'll get you. But 327 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: we're very sensitive, right, So even if it's in the 328 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: war of ideas, we want to all get along and 329 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,479 Speaker 1: you know, be harmonious. Yeah, then we need to do 330 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: something else. That's hard. Need to learn how to express 331 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: anger directly and at the moment, at the moment, not 332 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: go home and think about it and plan and plot 333 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: and start gossiping about it. But we need rules of 334 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 1: engagement the way sports has rules of engagements and war 335 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: two for that matter, by the way, and those rules 336 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: are completely violated in the our world today. We also 337 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,959 Speaker 1: need to do something else. We need to ask the 338 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: next woman or a woman who managed us directly what 339 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 1: we want. It's not going to be a d reader. 340 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: She may not know at that moment what we really 341 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: need or want at that moment. And then there's the 342 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 1: next thing, which is impossible almost but I have to 343 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 1: say it. And also, once you've learned to ask for 344 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 1: what you want and if you can't get it, if 345 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: this is a toxic friendship, so to speak, if this 346 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 1: is someone who is beyond change, we have to walk away. 347 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: We have to give it up. We have to have 348 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: the courage to disconnect. We the great connectors. We have 349 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: to be vigilant about not gossiping. We have to try 350 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: very hard not to gossip. Now this is almost impossible, 351 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: but it's very essential. It's at least it's a goal 352 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: that we can strive for. And we need to learn 353 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 1: to praise the next woman. I mean, just think we've 354 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: had mothers. They cook often every night, well three times 355 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 1: a day. Do we go home and say, mom, you 356 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 1: did it again. This is fantics, thank you, this is terrific. 357 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: I can't believe this. We don't. We just take it 358 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: for granted. And I think it's important to praise and 359 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: support the next moment and tell her. At the same time, 360 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 1: if we have made mistakes, like big mistakes. Who doesn't 361 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:29,199 Speaker 1: make big mistakes, we need to apologize. We need to 362 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: say I'm really sorry, I'm sorry I hurt you. Even 363 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:38,120 Speaker 1: if I thought I was right and I did I 364 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 1: did it the wrong way and my intention was not 365 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 1: to hurt you. That's hard to do. We need to 366 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 1: do that. So going back to what phillis you always 367 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: you say about gossip, how it functions as maintaining morals 368 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 1: UM and groups like group solidarity and really just perpetuating 369 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: like the patriarchal norms through shaming one another. UM. How 370 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: do you how do you feel about you know, the silos, 371 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:18,360 Speaker 1: I'd say on social media where people have very extreme views, 372 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: yet they find community within their little buckets of hatred 373 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: or misogyny or racism or what or what have you. 374 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: They find camaraderie in these groups, and then that almost 375 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: gives them a sense of of, you know, of belonging 376 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: within this hate group which would have never existed before. 377 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: It's like this, this entirely new undercurrent of perpetuating hate 378 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:45,880 Speaker 1: that just doesn't seem easily eradicated. It's very tribal, and 379 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: people are very I mean, forget about especially post pandemic, 380 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 1: which still continues. Uh. People are isolated and they're alienated. 381 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: And you're right. They think when they find a group 382 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: with whom they agree on whatever conspiracy they hold in common, 383 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 1: that now they've got a tribe. But this is this 384 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: is true of politics, it's true of governmental leaders, it's 385 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: true even of great thinks this tribalism as opposed to 386 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: the ability to be an individual. First. So yes, I've 387 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:33,199 Speaker 1: been purged from certain lists of groups because my ideas 388 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: we're seen as wrong. And it was painful, and I 389 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 1: wrote about it in a book that's out of a 390 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 1: friend called the Death of Feminism, And it was around 391 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 1: the very thing that you're now both talking about. So 392 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: I mean there is the great books by women who 393 00:27:55,200 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: are feminists have been disappeared in generation after generation. Century 394 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: up the century and Dale spender and Australian scholar wrote 395 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 1: a wonderful book called Women of Ideas and What Men 396 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 1: Have Done to Them. But now as we see, women 397 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: of ideas have been cannibalized you a good phrase, and 398 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 1: disappeared by other women who want to reinvent the wheel, 399 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: who want to take the credit for ideas that they 400 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 1: did not originate, destroy the shoulders on which they should 401 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 1: be standing, which I'm calling matricycle, in order to become 402 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: the first, and the only and the greatest. So there's 403 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: a lot of hubrists, and a lot of foolishness, and 404 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: a lot of left over mother daughter adolescent conflict. I'm 405 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: not sure how to get rid of any of that. 406 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: Do you have any ideas? We're trying. It has to 407 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: start with the conversation, which is what we're doing here. 408 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: I have, since reading this book in becoming aware of it. 409 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: So it's one thing to say, Okay, I'm experiencing this now. 410 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: I want to make sense of it, especially when I 411 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: see that other people experience it as well, and then 412 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: what can I can't change other people, but I can 413 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: change myself. So when I'm in situations, if I notice 414 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: that I'm gossiping, I call myself out and I might 415 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: I might continue doing and be like, this is what 416 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: I'm doing right now. I am going to give this 417 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: a name. I am gossiping right now. Just so, No, 418 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: if there's a woman that comes into women, we size 419 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: each other up. Men talk about size each other. Oh, 420 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: they don't hold the candle to us, right we size 421 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: people up. I mean, we all know, we've all been there. 422 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: When I am around a woman who I am feeling 423 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: that kind of like there's like this like little fire 424 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: of competition, I'm starting to turn that into admiration. And 425 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: in my head if not I have, if I don't 426 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: have the opportunity to speak to the person in my head, 427 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: I'll start complimenting the person and I'll turn that and saying, oh, wow, 428 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: she's so beautiful. I love her outfit, I love this, 429 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: I love the way that she's walking. I mean, obviously 430 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: from the outside, it's all superficial. You know, even though 431 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: people might have a glow to them and the same 432 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: thing about you know, women who I get to I 433 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: get to know their work, and they're you know, all 434 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 1: their all their life and their families and all the 435 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: different ins and outs of them, of their of their being. 436 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: I start to try to turn my negativity into a positivity. 437 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: But I have to start inside well, I think, and 438 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: that takes us to like this first step which we're 439 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: experimenting on ourselves with this show and this this concept, 440 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: not like it's pioneering by any means, but it's really 441 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: just to put into practice something that can change these patterns. 442 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: And I know we both speak about it with each 443 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: other all the time. You catch yourself gossiping and you 444 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: you you, it becomes a trigger and you and you 445 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: stop doing it. You see another woman, you have that 446 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: visceral reaction to maybe the competition. And then I've started 447 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: taking it a step further and going out of my 448 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: way to engage and compliment someone in a situation where 449 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: it could have been very uncomfortable. And I've been finding, 450 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: like you know, you get the light that you give out, 451 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: and it's just the magnetism and the warmth that comes 452 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: from just taking that chance and like making those steps. 453 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: Obviously it's small and it's baby steps, but it does 454 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: feel like a good way to integrate some sort of change, 455 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,719 Speaker 1: slowly but surely not small, because imagine if every woman 456 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: on planet Earth did it, that ripple would become a 457 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: huge wave. So I just because you've just inspired me 458 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: and please me beyond belief. Um, maybe we should gather 459 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: to do a teaching on the subject. You know, I 460 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: have not asked you like personal questions or tell me 461 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: all the bad things that have happened, the kind of 462 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: things you may not want to say online, you know, 463 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,959 Speaker 1: or you may And if women could join us and 464 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: share their stories, as long as it was structured and safe, 465 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: that might be a good next step for you to undertake. 466 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: And I would be happy to help in any way. Really, 467 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,959 Speaker 1: thank you, Phyllis. That would be amazing. I mean, yeah, So, 468 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: what is your best piece of advice for women? Treat 469 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: women respectfully, don't expect, don't think because a woman is 470 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: not perfect that she's the evil stepmother. Just treat her 471 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: with respect. We don't have to love each other, even 472 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: though we want to and want to receive it. We 473 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: don't have to love each other. We don't even have 474 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: to like each other. We just have to behave respectfully, 475 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: have boundaries, respect the boundaries be kind. I would give 476 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: that at this moment. It's interesting because we'll say, okay, well, 477 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: we're not burning and hanging and throwing stones, although these 478 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: things do happen in other places in the world, but 479 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: you know, we really haven't moved that far forward. We're 480 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: repeating the same feelings over and over again, of competition, 481 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: of not having enough. If somebody seems to have more 482 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: than they must have done something nefarious in order to 483 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: get there. Um, you know, punching up, punching down, punching 484 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: left right, it's all punching and yeah, yeah, yeah, so 485 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: we I mean, I think I think until we start 486 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: addressing what we have inside of us, that's the only 487 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: thing that we can change. We can have these conversations, 488 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: we can you know, share our ideas because this is 489 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,719 Speaker 1: the thing that people whisper about. When I've you know, 490 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: since becoming such a fan of your work, and I 491 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: obviously share that with my platform and people that I 492 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: that I meet, you know, I mean, the mom world, 493 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: the mom world is so competitive, and the mom world, 494 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: especially in the past decade, has turned into quite a business. 495 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 1: So you have capitalism on top of it, you know, 496 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,399 Speaker 1: And I've had my part of them being my mom influencers. 497 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: That's called a hate hate that term, but you know, 498 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: I mean it has just generated this thing where what 499 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: happens when the mean girls grew up and started having 500 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 1: kids and started having a business, we're really just the same. 501 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 1: I'm seeing for my my oldest daughter, who's nine, that 502 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: she is very much experiencing the mean girl dynamic, especially 503 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 1: that dynamic of three. For some reason, it's always the 504 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: three kids. I think I've talked about this on a 505 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 1: previous UM episode with us, But what what is it 506 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: that these girls are doing this at such a young age. 507 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 1: Could be hard wired? I mean, we don't know, and 508 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: we're here civilization to help us resist the more barbaric 509 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,800 Speaker 1: items of our hard wiring. So I think three is 510 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: an unstable Let's think of it as a three legged stool. 511 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: Women are most comfortable one on one in a diet 512 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 1: which recapitulates the mother daughter relationship, especially if it failed 513 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: and you want to perfect it um and you you 514 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: you improve on it with your best friend, and then 515 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: you get to the end of what you can do 516 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: and you move on to another best friend. So we 517 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,439 Speaker 1: are most comfortable in a diet could be with a man, 518 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: but definitely with another woman a third member. That's competition, 519 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 1: that's instability. Who's who was the third member going to 520 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: choose who's the closest to who? We're gonna try one thing. 521 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,080 Speaker 1: I don't know if you're you're into it, but you 522 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: do something called what are we coveting in the coven? 523 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: Which is something where you should share something that you're 524 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: really into. Oh no, no, I got something in Until 525 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 1: this day, I was privileged to co lead a team 526 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 1: of grassroots women who rescued four women from Afghanistan and 527 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: one I've chosen as my Afghan granddaughter. And she's here 528 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,879 Speaker 1: in America at a graduate school on a scholarship. And 529 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 1: I'm gathering the team to meet her later in December 530 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: in my home and bringing her here, including the woman 531 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: who got her on the plane. So I think it 532 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: will be a very moving and exciting and high points 533 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: for everyone involved. Fantastic, really good. I'm into that. That 534 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 1: is so wonderful. I can't wait. I can't wait to 535 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: hear all about it. Dr Chester, thank you so much 536 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: for being with us today. Privilege, my pleasure. I'm good, 537 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,720 Speaker 1: Thank you. All right, ladies, that's it for today. We're 538 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: so pleased to have phyllis. This was a dream come 539 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: true on so many different levels. So please go get 540 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:19,399 Speaker 1: her book. It is mind blowing and you know she's 541 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 1: saying all of the things that you're going to just 542 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 1: be nodding and saying yes, yes, yes, I totally get 543 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 1: this and it all makes sense. And we all know 544 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: we've all been that place, you know, the word of 545 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 1: the year as gas lit. We've all been the place 546 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: and would think, oh gosh, why is this happening? And 547 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 1: you know, just to see it on written in such 548 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:44,439 Speaker 1: a scientific way, it really will hopefully arm you with 549 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 1: knowledge that will give you ability to forgive stuff that 550 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: you've done and ability to forgive things that other people 551 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 1: have done and get to a place where we can collaborate. UM. 552 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 1: So don't forget to share it with your friends, Rate review, subscribe, UM, 553 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 1: find us on I G and we can't wait to 554 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 1: see you guys next week. Thank you, which is follow 555 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: us at which is a nonpod on Instagram and wherever 556 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.