1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 2: I'm Stephen Monicelli, a journalist in Dallas and an occasional 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 2: contributor to Cool Zone Media, and welcome to episode four 4 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 2: of Anti vax America, a special five part mini series 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 2: for It Could Happen Here exploring the measles outbreak as 6 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 2: a microcosm for where we are now, how we got here, 7 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,639 Speaker 2: and where we could be going. Today's episode we'll focus 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 2: on the twisted history of eugenics as it relates to 9 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:40,279 Speaker 2: vaccinations and how the current MAHA agenda, as pushed by 10 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 2: RFK Junior, is a sort of echo of eugenic beliefs 11 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 2: of the past. Vaccination hesitancy historically has been framed by 12 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 2: opponents to vaccines as a matter of medical freedom, about 13 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 2: the ability to decide what one wants to do with 14 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 2: their own body. It's an argument that we've discussed can 15 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 2: appeal to crunchy granola types and religious zelots alike. But 16 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 2: there's also a darker side to this rhetoric that reveals 17 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 2: an embrace of eugenic ideas among anti vax advocates who 18 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 2: prefer quote unquote herd immunity approaches to outbreaks which subordinate 19 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 2: the interests of older people, those with disabilities, and members 20 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 2: of minority communities to those who choose not to be vaccinated. 21 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 2: On this episode of Anti vax America, we will dive 22 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 2: into the overlapping histories of eugenic thinking and anti vaccination 23 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 2: beliefs to untangle this mess. As we previously discussed in 24 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 2: episode two, vaccinations took off in the eighteen hundred, shortly 25 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 2: after the creation of the first smallpox vaccine in seventeen 26 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 2: ninety six, and so did anti vaccination rhetoric and movements. 27 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 2: In parallel, there were a lot of scientific developments going on. 28 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 2: The eighteen hundreds were a heady time in Western science. 29 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 2: There was Charles Darwin's theory of natural selection, which was 30 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 2: presented in Darwin's eighteen to fifty nine book on the 31 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 2: Origin of Species. Five years later, sociologists heard Robert Spencer 32 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 2: mixed concepts from Thomas Malthus, the economist who proposed that 33 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 2: population growth would outpaces food production, with Darwin's theory to 34 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 2: coin the term survival of the fittest and apply it 35 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 2: to industrial capitalism, with the end conclusion that basically those 36 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 2: who were on top were deserving of all the privileges 37 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 2: that they have, and that those at the bottom were 38 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 2: also deserving of their position in society. In eighteen eighty three, 39 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 2: Darwin's cousin Francis Galton, coined the term eugenics in his 40 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 2: book Inquiries into Human Fertility. In its developments, the book 41 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 2: proposed to give to quote, more suitable races a better 42 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 2: chance of prevailing speedily over the less suitable. To understand 43 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 2: a bit more about Galton's thinking, I spoke with doctor 44 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 2: Michael Phillips, who we heard from in a previous episode. 45 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 3: Galton was in despair that all those improvements in delivery 46 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 3: of healthcare, medical care itself nutrician, all the humanitarian efforts 47 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 3: to improve the workplace, eliminate child labor, improve factories so 48 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 3: people don't get blown up, et cetera. What that was 49 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 3: doing was it was allowing the unfit, you know, the 50 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 3: people he saw as inferior, to survive past childhood, to 51 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 3: survive into adulthood, to have longer, healthier lives. And if 52 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 3: they live a longer lifespan and they're healthier during that span, 53 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 3: they're going to have more children. And he believed that 54 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 3: because they are less gifted with intelligence, you know, because 55 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 3: you know, he said, history is driven by genius. And 56 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 3: he actually did the first major study on intelligence where 57 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 3: he traced the family histories of what he said were 58 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 3: the gifted men. And he claimed all of this was 59 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 3: biological inheritance. You know, everything was biology. And not only that, 60 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 3: but all traits, all traits were biological. Work, ethic, honesty, 61 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 3: fidelity to your partner, alcoholism, Every single trait a human 62 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 3: might have he tied to biology. And he said that 63 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 3: the people with the worst traits it's called disgenic. People 64 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 3: who were disgenic, people who had the worst traits were 65 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 3: now producing large families. And because they were less intelligent, 66 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 3: they gave into their sexual urges more often. They didn't 67 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 3: plan families based on their economic circumstances. They were impulsive, 68 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 3: Well we have eight children, let's have sex. And you 69 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 3: know if we have a ninth child, well we have 70 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 3: a ninth child. And that meant that those families were 71 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 3: growing exponentially. But the fit who plan their families more carefully, 72 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 3: and you know, the partners are busier job creators, as 73 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 3: innovators in science and education. The women want to have 74 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 3: a life outside of the hum that they were less fertile, 75 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 3: they were having fewer children, and of course what the 76 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 3: result would be is you have the unfit out numbering 77 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 3: the fit, and that leads to catastrophe society falls apart. 78 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 2: These sorts of ideas are represented in the satirical two 79 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 2: thousand and six film Idiocracy, which plays out a future 80 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 2: in which stupid people outbreed smart people and society consequently devolves. 81 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 4: As the twenty first century began, human evolution was at 82 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 4: a turning point. Natural selection the process by which the strongest, 83 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 4: the smartest, the fastest reproduced in greater numbers than the rest, 84 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 4: A process which at once favored the noblest traits of man, 85 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 4: now began to favor different traits. Most science fiction of 86 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 4: the day predicted a future that was more civilized and 87 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 4: more intelligent, but as time went on, things seemed to 88 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 4: be heading in the opposite direction, a dumbing down. How 89 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 4: did this happen? Evolution does not necessarily reward intelligence. With 90 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 4: no natural predators toin the herd, it began to simply 91 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 4: reward those who reproduced the most and left the intelligent 92 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 4: to become an endangered species. 93 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 2: Having kids is such an important decision, We're just. 94 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 5: Waiting for the right time. 95 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 4: It's not something you want to rush into. 96 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: Obviously, no way. 97 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 5: Shit, I'm putting it again. 98 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 2: Actually, damn kids, thought you was on the pills and 99 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 2: shitll no. 100 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 3: I must have been thinking really. 101 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 2: Well, certainly meant in jest. The fundamental principle of idiocracy 102 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 2: demonstrates the staying power of Galton's eugenic ideas, which became 103 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 2: highly influential in the twentieth century. Within two decades of 104 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 2: the release of his book, coining the term eugenics, eugenic 105 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 2: thinking was widespread among white Anglo Saxon leaders of the West. 106 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 2: But before we hear more about that from doctor Michael Phillips, 107 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 2: a quick ad break. 108 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 3: The two biggest hugenicists in the early twentieth century. They 109 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 3: were best selling authors Madison Grant, who was a friend 110 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 3: of Theodore Roosevelt's, and Walthorpe Stoddard. Stoddard in particular warned 111 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 3: that this was fueling radical politics, that the unfit essentially 112 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 3: were demanding the riches created by the geniuses in the world, 113 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 3: and they were expropriating the wealth they created, and they 114 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 3: were just they were just milking the fit for every advance, 115 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 3: and that as that became more difficult, that would breed revolution. 116 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 3: And in particular thought there was a link to communist revolution. 117 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 2: As advancements in sanitation and modern medicine continued in parallel 118 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 2: with the spread of leftist thought, eugenicists were consumed with 119 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 2: nightmares of a Malthusian crisis and were increasingly worried about 120 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 2: their position in society. Something in their minds had to 121 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 2: be done to stem the growing tide of unfit masses. 122 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 3: Because natural selection in the minds of the genesis had 123 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 3: basically been suspended. The four sterilizations were the substitute for that. 124 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 3: Eugenicists were in despair about vaccines that they there was 125 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 3: an organized campaign to ban them on eugenics reasons, because 126 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 3: I think they knew politically that would be unpopular, because 127 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 3: there were enough people who realize they could see the 128 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 3: benefits as vaccinations became more common. 129 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: In other words, some early genesists were both supportive of 130 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 2: things like for sterilization, but were also a poe those 131 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 2: to vaccinations because they believe that vaccinations would allow the 132 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 2: weak and unfit to survive, prosper and multiply. But not 133 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 2: all eugenicists were inherently opposed to vaccinations. The Nazi regime, 134 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 2: which exterminated millions of Jews, and other people deemed undesirable 135 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 2: also embraced widespread vaccination against diseases like typhus, even if 136 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 2: they actually rolled back mandatory vaccination laws that had been 137 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 2: put in place prior to the rise of the Nazis. Nevertheless, 138 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 2: the relationship between eugenic thinking and anti VAXX beliefs goes deep, 139 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 2: and it reveals a helpful heuristic for thinking about eugenics. So, 140 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 2: on the one hand, there's a sort of active or 141 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 2: hard eugenics, in which medical authorities or the state forcefully 142 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 2: sterilize and exterminate people who are deemed unfit. And then 143 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 2: on the other hand, there's a sort of passive or 144 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 2: soft eugenics, in which potentially preventable deaths are written off 145 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 2: as a product of a process in which the to 146 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 2: survive and go on to improve the overall gene pool. Now, 147 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 2: before we go any further, it is important to note 148 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 2: that eugenics has been morally and scientifically discredited so thoroughly 149 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 2: that it shouldn't even be necessary to mention it. But unfortunately, 150 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 2: eugenesis thinking is in resurgence. President Donald Trump himself has 151 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 2: said there are a lot of bad genes in our 152 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 2: country right now, and that immigrants are poisoning the blood 153 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 2: of our country. 154 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 3: That's been an ongoing thing with immigration debates ever since 155 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 3: the late nineteenth century, this idea that certain groups of 156 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 3: immigrants are disease carriers, and that has particularly been aimed 157 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 3: at Mexican immigrants. That's been a ongoing thing. And during COVID, 158 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 3: Greg Abbott, he's the governor of Texas, was saying it 159 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 3: was Mexican immigrants, undocumented immigrants, who were bringing COVID to Texas. 160 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 3: At one point he made that accusation, and it's exactly 161 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 3: like what they were saying. We had in Texas during 162 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 3: this period of this panic bat immigration. Late nineteenth early 163 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 3: choice centric Galveston. A medical doctor who was inspecting people 164 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 3: coming into the Port of Galveston who were Jewish immigrants, 165 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 3: and he was rejecting them because he was saying they're 166 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 3: carrying infectious eye diseases, tuberculosis, all of that, and Jewish 167 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 3: civil rights scripts had to intervene to stop that. 168 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 2: Racism, anti semitism, and eugenics historically have gone hand in hand, 169 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 2: but it hasn't been since the early nineteen hundreds that 170 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 2: people who hold such beliefs also hold so much power 171 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 2: in the state. RFK Junior, a longtime anti vaccination activist 172 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 2: and now head of the United States Department of Health 173 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 2: and Human Services, said in twenty twenty three that COVID 174 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 2: was quote ethnically targeted to spare Ashkenazi, Jews and Chinese people. Now, 175 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 2: his make America Healthy Again agenda is absolutely dripping with 176 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 2: soft eugenic thinking. And to unravel all that, I spoke 177 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 2: with doctor David Gorski, a doctor who regularly writes in 178 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 2: a blog called Science Based Medicine. 179 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 5: My name is David Gorsky. I'm a professor of surgery 180 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 5: and oncology at Wayne State University in Detroit. 181 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 2: So, doctor Gorski, you're also a bit of a writer, 182 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 2: and you keep a pretty regular blog in RICHI o'pine 183 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 2: on a number of things, and recently you've written a 184 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 2: couple of blog posts about the measles outbreak, the anti 185 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 2: vaccination movement. RFK Juniors make America Healthy Again an agenda. 186 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 2: And you know what folks over at the Conspiratuality podcast 187 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 2: called soft eugenics, or perhaps what we could also think 188 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 2: of as a sort of social Darwinist logic or sort 189 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 2: of passive eugenics. 190 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 5: You know, a couple months ago when I first came 191 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 5: across the episode of conspiratuality, which was called MAHA's soft eugenics, 192 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 5: like kind of like a light bulb went off in 193 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 5: my brain in that it sort of helped me crystallize 194 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 5: things that I had been thinking of about the anti 195 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 5: vaccine movement, but not so much the rest of Maha, which, 196 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 5: you know, let's face it, a mishmash of you know, 197 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 5: anti vaccine beliefs, you know, appeals to nature, anti pharma, 198 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 5: a lot of quackery mixed in with some you know, 199 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 5: semi reasonable stuff like you know, yeah, sure, diet, exercise, 200 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:40,079 Speaker 5: it's good for you. I think measles really epitomizes what 201 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 5: they called the quote unquote soft eugenics, which was basically, 202 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 5: instead of you know, like actively trying to kill children 203 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 5: or people that you you know, whose genes you don't 204 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 5: want passed on, you're basically letting nature do it. And 205 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 5: you hear this a lot when they talk about for example, 206 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 5: one of the most common arguments you'll hear from anti 207 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 5: vaxers about measles is that, you know, if someone gets 208 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 5: really sick for measles or dies of measles, they must 209 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 5: have had something wrong with them, They must not have 210 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 5: been healthy like that. Measles is harmless if you are healthy. 211 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 5: And of course, you know, there's a whole lot of 212 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 5: appeal to virtue as far as health goes. In other words, 213 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 5: there's this this belief system that's kind of embedded in Maha, 214 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 5: and it's been around for ages and ages and the 215 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 5: alternative medicine crowd that you know, you have basically total 216 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 5: control over your health. In other words, if you do 217 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 5: the right things, eat the right diet, you know, take 218 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 5: the right supplements, you know, do the exercise appropriately, you know, 219 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 5: you can keep yourself healthy. And it's even as good 220 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 5: as vaccines or better to prevent vaccine preventable diseases, infectious diseases. Right. 221 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 2: So, I think that's a great way to understand the 222 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 2: differences here. You know, we're not talking about the hard 223 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 2: active eugenics of the past, which was epitomized by the 224 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 2: Nazi regime and their quote unquote final solution. 225 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 5: And also, you know, you're in the good old us 226 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 5: of Aga years ago, right. 227 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 2: You know, or even you know, in the lingering sterilization 228 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 2: regimes that continued up until you know, the later twentieth century, 229 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 2: which we're you know, sort of originally rooted in this 230 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 2: idea that we should be calling people out of the 231 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 2: reproductive pool who have these undesirable traits or are you know, 232 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 2: considered to be unfit in some way, so that that's 233 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 2: not what we're talking about. We're talking about this more 234 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 2: let nature take its course, survival of the fittest type mindset. 235 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 2: I don't know if it's a resurgence or it's just 236 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 2: continuing to gain in popularity. There's a recent conference, it's 237 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 2: been one of two conferences that have happened in Austin, 238 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 2: Texas where a lot of these quote unquote liberal eugenics 239 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 2: also met up with people who are in the pro 240 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 2: natalist movement. And then there's this overlap with people who 241 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 2: are kind of dabbling in race science or trying to 242 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 2: resuscitate old ideas that are basically you know, eugenic in 243 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 2: nature with regard to some people, you know, being smarter 244 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 2: by genetic basis. 245 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 5: I mean there's a lot of that around too, and 246 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 5: that's not soft eugenics, that's like straight up eugenic. 247 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 2: Right, And so there's a continuum, you could say, there's 248 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 2: this spectrum and you know, these things are not disconnected, 249 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 2: but they also can be understood as somewhat discrete phenomenon 250 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 2: or ideologies or belief systems. And so you did write 251 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 2: a little bit about one specific document that you know, 252 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 2: I hadn't been particularly familiar with, called the Great Barrington Declaration. 253 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 2: Can you talk about that? 254 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 5: Okay? So I can't believe it's like four and a 255 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 5: half years ago now, but way back in early October 256 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 5: of twenty twenty three, scientists were brought together by a 257 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 5: far right wing, you know, activist named Jeffrey Tucker, who 258 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 5: was associated with a right wing thing tank at the 259 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 5: time called the American Institute for Economic Research. The idea 260 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 5: behind the document was, you know, all of these measures 261 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 5: to control COVID are like, you know, destroying the economy. 262 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 5: So what we should really do, supposedly based on science 263 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 5: but not really as I'll get into, is to let 264 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 5: the virus spread among quote unquote young and healthy, you know, 265 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 5: those who are not at high risk, so not the elderly, 266 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 5: not those with pre existing conditions that make them high 267 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 5: risk for severe disease complications and death from COVID. Just 268 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 5: let it spread to reach what they call you know, 269 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 5: quote unquote natural herd immunity heard immunity for those not 270 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 5: familiar with it, is when a pathod is so prevalent 271 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 5: in the population and that so many people have developed 272 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 5: what they call natural immunity, but the more appropriate term 273 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 5: is post infection immunity. You know, immunity after having been 274 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 5: infected to the point where you know a sufficient proportion 275 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 5: of the population is immune and the virus doesn't spread 276 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 5: much like if you have a sufficient proportion of the 277 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 5: population vaccinated the virus, you know, you might get sporadic 278 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 5: cases in small outbreaks, but it just can't spread further. 279 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 5: If you don't know much about infectious diseases, including COVID, 280 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 5: it sounds like not unreasonable given that there wasn't a 281 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 5: vaccine back then. The other part of it is what 282 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 5: they call it, quote unquote focus protection. So the idea 283 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 5: was supposedly that you could protect those at high risk 284 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 5: while letting the virus circulate, which are pretty incompatible, because 285 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 5: how are you going to you know, how are you 286 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 5: going to keep these high risk people from coming into 287 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 5: contact with people who could have the virus, unless you 288 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 5: like quarantine them all or something like that, which again 289 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 5: would be impractical because you know, it's what twenty percent 290 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 5: of the population at least. The other problem with this 291 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 5: idea is for there to be natural herd immunity. I 292 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 5: hate that term, but I'll use it just because it's 293 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 5: what they use. A couple of conditions are necessary. First, 294 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 5: post infection immunity has to be lifelong or at least 295 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 5: very long lasting. The second is, in other words, that 296 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 5: the virus can't be mutating to avoid immunity, which we 297 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 5: all know now and even new then that coronaviruses are 298 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 5: very good at doing. So that it was expected that 299 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 5: you know, new variants would come up and they could 300 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,719 Speaker 5: evade even post infection immunity in terms of like influenza. 301 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 5: That's why the flu vaccine has to be updated, you know, 302 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 5: every year, because the strains mutate, and the rise of 303 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 5: the delta wave, the omicron wave, et cetera kind of 304 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 5: showed that people getting infected again and again that you know, 305 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 5: post infection immunity for COVID was not long lasting. So 306 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 5: basically the Great Barrington Declaration was, you know, giving up 307 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 5: more than anything else in order to let people make 308 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 5: money again. And it never would have worked because even 309 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 5: back then we had every reason to expect that post infection, 310 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 5: immunity after COVID infection would not be long lasting, and 311 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 5: that the virus would mutate and you know, come up 312 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 5: with new strains that could bypass pre existing immunity from 313 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 5: previous infections. However, this idea was very influential, and in fact, 314 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 5: the Great Barrington Declaration was kind of late in the 315 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 5: game because the idea of just letting the virus spread 316 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 5: to achieve natural herd immunity was being pushed as early 317 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,400 Speaker 5: as March and April in twenty twenty. And one of 318 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 5: the writers or the scientists who wrote the Great Barrington 319 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 5: Declaration is now our director of the NIH doctor J. Bodichario. 320 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 5: The other was doctor Senatragupta in England. And then there 321 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 5: was of course Martin Caldor, who I now hear is 322 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 5: involved in the autism you know, vaccine study that RFK 323 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 5: Junior is supposedly organizing. So basically, you know, these these 324 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 5: are the idea behind the Great Barrington Declaration, far from 325 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 5: being censored and canceled, et cetera, actually found purchase at 326 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 5: the highest levels of government in the US and the UK, 327 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 5: the Boris Johnson government and Donald Trump administration both you know, 328 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 5: listen to these scientists, and I mean great Barrington Declaration 329 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,239 Speaker 5: writers you know, actually got to meet with Trump at 330 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,719 Speaker 5: one point, I believe in July, and it was unfortunately 331 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 5: very influential, and it was discouraged stronger public health measures. 332 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 5: I did call this idea eugenesis at the time, although 333 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 5: maybe you can argue if it's soft eugenics or social Darwinist. 334 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 5: I mean, maybe more social Darwinists, given that, oh well, 335 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 5: it's kind of like screw the old people who will 336 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 5: die of this, you know, seem to be part of 337 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 5: the attitude behind it. You know, we throw up this 338 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 5: focused protection kind of as an afterthought, you know, where 339 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 5: the main idea is just to you know, let the 340 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 5: virus spread and most people will be okay. And this 341 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 5: is the same sort of idea that we that I 342 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 5: heard again and again years and years before with the measles, 343 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 5: you know. And in fact, if you go back to 344 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 5: twenty fifteen, which was you know, after the Disneyland measles 345 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 5: outbreak and during the holidays of twenty fourteen that you know, 346 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 5: took part in the early part of twenty fifteen, you 347 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 5: would see a lot of anti vaccine activists going on 348 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 5: and on about how if you just keep yourself healthy. 349 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 5: Measles is not a danger. That natural immunity to measles 350 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 5: is far greater than vaccine induced immunity. What they always 351 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 5: fail to mention is that a price of getting post 352 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 5: infection immunity can be besides just being sick. Could it 353 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 5: involve the risk of you know, complications, neurologic damage, or even. 354 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 2: Death right And so in a way, there's a sort 355 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 2: of moralization around health in that you know, it's something 356 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 2: that individuals have to be personally responsible for, and as 357 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 2: you said, if they succumbed to an illness like measles, 358 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 2: it is sort of an indication that maybe they were 359 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 2: unfit in some way or unhealthy, And his dovetails with 360 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 2: something you also wrote about RFK Junior's recent speech in 361 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 2: which he talked about autism and described it as a 362 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 2: tsunami and likened it to an epidemic. He claimed that 363 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 2: the increasing statistical prevalence of autos is due to environmental 364 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 2: risk factors and is something that is sort of induced 365 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 2: by human behavior, as opposed to that statistical prevalence being 366 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 2: a result of improvements and diagnostic tools that more accurately 367 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 2: measure a phenomenon, and he also portrayed autistic people as 368 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 2: a sort of burden on society, you know, or people 369 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 2: who will never be able to do things like fall 370 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 2: in love or get a job, despite the fact that 371 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,880 Speaker 2: there are countless examples of people with autism or under 372 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 2: the umbrella of what we call autism, doing exactly those things. 373 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 2: And there's this undercurrent of rhetoric that you sort of 374 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 2: describe it as an echo of something. I hadn't heard 375 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 2: this term before, but I'm familiar with the idea of it, 376 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 2: or rather the way in which it was deployed, the 377 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 2: idea of quote unquote useless eaters. And so, can you 378 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 2: just walk us through sort of what your reaction to 379 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 2: RFK Junior's speech was in you know how you made 380 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:03,120 Speaker 2: that connection. 381 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 5: Well, look at what the very first thing he said 382 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 5: about people with severe autism. Okay, what did he say? 383 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 5: He said, they'll never pay taxes, they'll never have a job, 384 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 5: and then oh, they'll never go on a date, they'll 385 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 5: never play baseball. It's what are the first two things 386 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 5: he mentions paying taxes and having a job. This is 387 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,640 Speaker 5: straight up useless eaters rhetoric, and useless eaters was basically 388 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,719 Speaker 5: a term that the Nazis used, you know, for people 389 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 5: with you know, severe you know, neurologic conditions or diseases 390 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 5: that made it such that they would require lifetime care 391 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 5: and would never contribute to society. So that was the echo. 392 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 5: I think that echo was pretty clear describing them that way. Now, 393 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:56,719 Speaker 5: the other interesting thing about the eugenics angle, there's a 394 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 5: very strong denial of what we know thus far about autism, 395 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 5: which is that it's like roughly eighty percent genetic. You know, 396 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 5: you can argue over the exact figures, but it's predominantly genetic. 397 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 5: I think there's little doubt about that. So parents who 398 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:19,440 Speaker 5: have an autistic child, they often blame themselves or they think, wait, 399 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 5: if it's genetic, that means it must be me and 400 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 5: or my partner, you know, which if you're thinking in 401 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 5: terms of the whole health is virtue thing, you know, 402 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 5: if there is something about you that is not changeable, 403 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 5: mainly your genetics, and that you know, no amount of 404 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 5: exercise or you know, living right is going to change, 405 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 5: it's easy to fall into denial of that and seek 406 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 5: to blame something else. So there's that, and you know, 407 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 5: one of the things I'm kind of afraid of is 408 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 5: that if it becomes undeniable, you know, if they keep 409 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 5: doing all this stuff and failing to find, you know, 410 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 5: any real evidence that an external exposure is causing autism, 411 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 5: and they're forced to reckon with autism being primarily but 412 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,959 Speaker 5: not exclusively, but primarily genetic. Where does that lead you 413 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 5: in terms of what do you do about autism? And 414 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 5: my mind has gone in some fairly dark directions thinking about. 415 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 2: That, right right, And there's little discussion of what autistic 416 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 2: people think or want. 417 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 5: No, it doesn't matter to them at all. Really, In fact, 418 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 5: they're almost entirely dismissive of what autistic people themselves think exactly. 419 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 2: And there's also a total disregard for the value of 420 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 2: difference and the contributions that people who are autistic have 421 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,719 Speaker 2: made to society that perhaps they might even correlate with 422 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 2: the fact that they're autistic. So there's this erasure of 423 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 2: not only what an entire group of people actually want 424 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 2: for themselves as advocates for themselves, but also their value, 425 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 2: you know, not just as a group of people, but 426 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 2: as individuals as well. 427 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 5: To add to that, let's go back to around two 428 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 5: thousand and seven, two thousand and eight when Jenny McCarthy 429 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 5: was the face of the anti vaccine movement. So like 430 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 5: one of the things she said after, you know, supposedly 431 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 5: after her son Evan got vaccinated, was that quote unquote 432 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 5: the light went out of his eyes. And then you 433 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 5: hear this a lot when parents realize their children are 434 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 5: showing the signs of, you know, the early signs of autism. 435 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 5: Is it like they there's language about how their child 436 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 5: was stolen from them, in other words, as if this 437 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 5: autistic child is not their child, rather their idealized version 438 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 5: of what their child should be is their real child 439 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 5: or their quote unquote normal child. This is some really 440 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 5: ancient stuff in that, you know, I don't know if 441 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 5: you there's the whole idea of the changeling myth, in which, 442 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 5: you know, the idea of being. You know, children with 443 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 5: mental illness, you know, have been taken over or their changelings. 444 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 5: They are no longer what they were before. It's almost 445 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 5: as if they are no longer human. I mean, the 446 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 5: dehumanization that you hear from the anti vaccine movement about 447 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 5: autism has long been horrific, and it's just that up 448 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 5: until now, most people have not heard that rhetoric, and 449 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 5: now they're hearing it from a high government official and 450 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 5: it is becoming federal health policy. 451 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is certainly a new development. Is something we've 452 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 2: discussed on previous episodes, is the deeper history of anti 453 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 2: vaccination belief or hesitancy that goes deep in American history. 454 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: You know, for almost as long as vaccines have ever existed, 455 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 2: it has rarely ever been enshrined in law and policy 456 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 2: in the way that it is now being done. And 457 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 2: so we've talked about one of these people, high level 458 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 2: government officials, RFK Junior, whose statements have drawn your attention 459 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 2: and elicited your concern. But he's not the only one. 460 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 2: So you also wrote about oprah adjacent television personality, doctor 461 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 2: menad Oz. 462 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 5: Okay, Yeah, well doctor Oz actually is sort of surprising 463 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 5: you a little bit, but then in retrospect not really. 464 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 5: So I'm surprised there wasn't more commentary about this. But 465 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 5: when he gave his brief little acceptance speech after having 466 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 5: been confirmed as the Administrator of the Centers for Medicare 467 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 5: and Medicaid Services, which is the part of HHS that 468 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 5: administers you know, Medicare, Medicaid Affordable Care Act, it's like 469 00:30:55,600 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 5: really important, huge programs. When he said, basically, it is 470 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 5: your patriotic duty to take care of yourself, you know it, 471 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 5: to be healthy, and then he goes, oh, and it 472 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 5: feels better as well. But he said, it's your patriotic 473 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 5: duty to take care of yourself and be healthy because 474 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 5: then you, you know, draw less. I'm paraphrasing because I 475 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 5: don't remember exactly what he said, but because you pull 476 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 5: less from the pool, you know, which, interestingly E goes 477 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 5: exactly almost exactly other than the patriotic duty part what 478 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 5: RFK Junior said. When Bernie Sanders asked if healthcare was 479 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 5: a human right, as you recall, RFKA Junior did his 480 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 5: best not to answer, you know, he dodged and weaved 481 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 5: around the question, and then he brought up the example 482 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 5: of a someone who smokes cigarettes for decades and then 483 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 5: develops lung cancer and is now drawing from the pool. 484 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 5: He was like, very you know, emphasized drawing from the pool, 485 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 5: as if that person does not deserve healthcare basically because 486 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 5: an addiction gave you cancer. Because you know, what he 487 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 5: neglects to mention is just how addictives you know, tobacco 488 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 5: and nicotine are, and as a former addict himself, you know, 489 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 5: I found that striking. But coming back to the whole 490 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 5: patriotic beauty thing. Know, the whole idea is, again, health 491 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 5: is virtue. You control your health, and if you don't 492 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 5: do the right things and become ill, that you're somehow 493 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 5: less worthy of healthcare. 494 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: Right. 495 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 2: And there's an interesting thread there in that some EU 496 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 2: genesis thinkers, at least American ones, were somewhat concerned about, 497 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 2: you know, the idea that vaccinations could prevent the weak 498 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 2: or the unfit from being called naturally. 499 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 5: Oh yes, definitely. Yeah, So there is. 500 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 2: Some linkage here, even if these are somewhat discrete ideas. 501 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 2: And you know, you also quoted something from a doctor 502 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 2: Oz speech back in twenty thirteen. You pulled a video 503 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 2: that had been and resurfaced in recent years, and as said, 504 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 2: people don't have a right to health if they're uninsured. 505 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 2: And so it's not like what he's saying is kind 506 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 2: of new for him. He's been saying things like this 507 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 2: for a while. And the idea that you know, there's 508 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 2: this national body that we all have a duty to 509 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 2: sort of be healthy cells of is something that there's 510 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 2: a long history of that sort of thinking and policy. 511 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, yes, the whole I mean, I can't help but 512 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 5: think of Nazis and the vult quick aside. 513 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 2: For those who don't know, the Nazi idea of the 514 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 2: Vulcan has a few elements to it. Not only does 515 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 2: it relate to racial and cultural homogeneity, but it also 516 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 2: conceives of the nation as a sort of body composed 517 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 2: of cells, one that must be cleansed of unfit or 518 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 2: unhealthy cells in order to become perfect. In other words, 519 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 2: a dutiful member of the Vulcan would prioritize their health 520 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 2: as a sort of paireotic or nationalistic duty, and would 521 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 2: participate in eugenic programs to eliminate the unfit. 522 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 5: You know, I'm not saying this is straight up Nazi 523 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 5: or anything like that. It's just that these sorts of 524 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 5: themes have echoed through you know, not just eugenicist movements, 525 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 5: but nationalist and authoritarian movements. 526 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 2: And there's this concerning development. RFK Junior has proposed basically 527 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 2: creating like a national database or registry of people with autism, 528 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 2: and if it's not just autism, maybe other disorders like ADHD. 529 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 2: And if you read reports that interview people with autism 530 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,279 Speaker 2: or similar disorders. They are very concerned by this for 531 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 2: the reasons that you just described, So the creation of 532 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:53,280 Speaker 2: this database could be framed as a way to improve 533 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 2: our ability to understand this hypothetical linkage that they are 534 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 2: so doggedly stuck on between autism in vaccines. But I 535 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 2: think those who know their history could easily imagine such 536 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 2: a tool being used for other more nefarious purposes, because 537 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 2: you know, similar policies were passed in Germany in the 538 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 2: nineteen thirties to sort of, you know, identify these people 539 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 2: and categorize them and then eventually do what they did 540 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 2: with them. So, you know, for all those sorts of reasons, 541 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 2: and you know, also the fact that we're living at 542 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 2: a time in which American citizens and legal residents are 543 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 2: being sent to a foreign prison colony as is certainly 544 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 2: you know something that I think people are picking up 545 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 2: on and maybe making connections with. 546 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 5: As you mentioned, a lot of autistic people don't want 547 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 5: to be on this database, and as a result, I've 548 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 5: read reports in the news of parents are asking that 549 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 5: their child not be given a diagnosis of autism so 550 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 5: that they don't end up in the database, which could 551 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:02,240 Speaker 5: artificially cause, you know, the revolence of autism to level 552 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,800 Speaker 5: off and start to decline, at which point RFK declares victory. 553 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,800 Speaker 2: We'll hear a bit more from doctor Gorski after a 554 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:24,400 Speaker 2: quick ad break. There's a recent proposal out of rfk's 555 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:30,399 Speaker 2: HHS that intends to provide placebo vaccines during testing for 556 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 2: all quote unquote new vaccines. 557 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:37,280 Speaker 5: So the idea is, the vaccines in the childhood schedule 558 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 5: have quote unquote never been tested against placebo control. Although 559 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,359 Speaker 5: ironically it's funny. I read an article the other day 560 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 5: where they did admit that the COVID vaccine for children 561 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 5: was indeed tested against a placebo control. I'm kind of 562 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 5: surprised they conceded that, but I guess sometimes they have 563 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 5: to concede reality. But here's the idea. So it's true 564 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 5: that some of them vaccines have not been tested against 565 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 5: the strict siline placebo control that they want, but there 566 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,800 Speaker 5: are a number of reasons for that. The primary reason 567 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 5: is ethics. So let's go back. So if you have 568 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 5: a new vaccine that is for a disease that has 569 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:23,320 Speaker 5: never had an approved vaccine before, yes, it's tested against 570 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 5: a placebo control. This has been the case for a 571 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 5: very long time. However, if you have a new vaccine 572 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 5: for a disease that already has a vaccine that's been 573 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 5: approved as safe and effective and is the standard of care, 574 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:42,280 Speaker 5: it is completely unethical to do a randomized study where 575 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 5: you know one third to half of the participants will 576 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 5: be randomized to a group that does not get the 577 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 5: standard of care treatment as in, you know, the vaccine 578 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,839 Speaker 5: or the standard of care preventative. In that case, the 579 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,359 Speaker 5: only ethical way to test the new vaccine against the 580 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 5: disease for which there's already a vaccine is to test 581 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 5: it against an existing vaccine and then make sure that 582 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 5: it is at least not inferior or preferably better. So, 583 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 5: if you trace back the lineage of all the vaccines 584 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 5: on the childhood vaccine schedule, if you go back to 585 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 5: the first vaccine against the disease that was approved, it 586 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 5: was tested against you know, placebo, when it was a 587 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,759 Speaker 5: new vaccine against a disease that didn't have a vaccine. 588 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,879 Speaker 2: I'm wondering if you agree with this, but it does 589 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 2: sound like this proposal if it were to be implemented 590 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 2: in a way that involves vaccines for existing diseases that 591 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,080 Speaker 2: have already been treated with vaccines, if there were placebos 592 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 2: introduced into this testing, and you know, like you said, 593 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 2: there's a random percentage of people that were given a placebo. 594 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 2: I mean to me, it recalls like a soft version 595 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 2: of a Tuskegee experiment. 596 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, I've been meaning to make that that any but 597 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:01,359 Speaker 5: you beat me to it. 598 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 2: As we discussed in a prior episode in this series, 599 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 2: the Tuskegee Syphilist Study was a horrifically unethical, racist and 600 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,400 Speaker 2: eugenic experiment that helped seed a long standing distrust of 601 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 2: vaccines and medical authorities, particularly among minority communities in the 602 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 2: United States, and it straddled the intersection of hard and 603 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 2: soft eugenics. While it was not a forced sterilization program, 604 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 2: the intent of the experiment was to test the eugenic 605 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 2: hypothesis that racial groups were differently susceptible to infectious diseases. 606 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 2: And that's because they basically believed that black people had 607 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 2: different nervous systems than white people and that they were 608 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 2: not the same. And they also allowed black men who 609 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 2: could have otherwise been treated for syphilis, which there were 610 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 2: treatments for that at the time, to instead suffer and 611 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 2: die after being given placebo treatments without their knowledge. Children's 612 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 2: health defense while under the leadership of RFK Junior invoked 613 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,720 Speaker 2: the Tuskegee Syphliss experiment in a recent anti vaccine film 614 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:04,399 Speaker 2: they specifically promoted to Black Americans to encourage vaccine skepticism, 615 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,320 Speaker 2: and now the former leader of that organization is proposing 616 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,319 Speaker 2: an approach to vaccines that is eerily reminiscent of the 617 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:16,879 Speaker 2: sordid Tuskegee experiment. In the post COVID world, vaccination rates 618 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 2: are on the decline, and anti vaccination beliefs are spreading 619 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,320 Speaker 2: in tandem with eugenesis thinking. The rhetoric of the leaders 620 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 2: of our top health bureaucracies recall chilling episodes in recent history, 621 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 2: ones that we would rather not repeat. But because we 622 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 2: have history as a guide, it is not impossible for 623 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 2: us to imagine what could happen if things continue to 624 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,440 Speaker 2: trend in the direction we are already headed. So on 625 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,239 Speaker 2: the next episode of Anti vaxx America, I'll explore some 626 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 2: of the worst case scenarios that could unfold if the 627 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 2: proponents of the MAHA agenda get their way. I'm Stephen Monchelli. 628 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:51,719 Speaker 2: Until next time. 629 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,800 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of pool Zone Media. 630 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,839 Speaker 1: For more podcasts cool Zone Media, visit our website foolzonmedia 631 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,720 Speaker 1: dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 632 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,359 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 633 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,720 Speaker 1: now find sources for it could Happen here, listed directly 634 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.