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Speaker 2: Josh, it's time to drop something from the film Spotting
Speaker 2: archive into the main feed, And with the Sundance Film
Speaker 2: Festival Award winners having just been announced, we thought we
Speaker 2: would pick one of those award winners, actually a double
Speaker 2: award winner from our review history, and share that with
Speaker 2: our audience. Twelve years ago, Damien Cizelle's Whiplash won the
Speaker 2: Fest Grand Jury Prize and it won the Audience Award.
Speaker 2: Of course, it went on to much more acclaim later
Speaker 2: that year as well.
Speaker 1: Twelve years it actually this case where it actually seems longer.
Speaker 1: I mean, Chiselle has done a lot of stuff since Whiplash,
Speaker 1: but yeah, what a breakout for him, a breakout for
Speaker 1: me on letterbox Adam, I think this is one of
Speaker 1: the most liked reviews I've posted on Letterbox Stuff of
Speaker 1: Whiplash and you know that you know the insight, the
Speaker 1: insight I gave that got that response. See, I love it.
Speaker 2: That's that's why I asked.
Speaker 1: This was my review. Good job. See it's always.
Speaker 2: The pithy, it's all the two words when it's you.
Speaker 2: But when you actually you actually you spend time crafting
Speaker 2: real criticism and you get three likes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just scroll right on by.
Speaker 2: Good Job's funny, though, Josh, I say good job to.
Speaker 1: You, thank you, thank you, sir.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 1: We reviewed the film when it came to theaters that October.
Speaker 1: Here's that conversation.
Speaker 2: The keys to just relax, don't worry about the numbers,
Speaker 2: don't worry about what the other guys are thinking. You're
Speaker 2: here for a reason. A fun five six And I.
Speaker 1: Don't want to be great and you're not.
Speaker 2: You got Buddy rich hair a little trouble there, you're rushing.
Speaker 2: Here we go five six.
Speaker 1: And on a recent show Adam, we played a clip
Speaker 1: from Whiplash in which JK. Simmons demanding music instructor Barrts
Speaker 1: Miles Teller's aspiring jazz drummer, and I made a joke
Speaker 1: that he sounded like our Lee Ermei's drill instructor in
Speaker 1: Full Metal Jacket. I hadn't seen the film yet, but
Speaker 1: it turns out I was onto something in both Full
Speaker 1: Metal Jacket and Whiplash. The harsh demands of a superior
Speaker 1: play a part in an instance of suicide, and this
Speaker 1: is a small detail in the Whiplash, So don't worry
Speaker 1: that I've just given the entire picture away. All that
Speaker 1: is to say, though, that Whiplash, which is written and
Speaker 1: directed by Damian Chizzell, is a pretty dark film. In
Speaker 1: his quest to become one of the great jazz drummers
Speaker 1: of all time, Teller's Andrew alienates family, snuffs out abursioning romance,
Speaker 1: and spill a whole lot of blood. I didn't realize
Speaker 1: that drumming could involve this much blood. Actually. Meanwhile, JK.
Speaker 1: Simmons Fletcher, an abusively intense teacher at the elite music
Speaker 1: school Andrew attends, is on hand to push Andrew even
Speaker 1: further than that. Their goal is nothing short of perfection,
Speaker 1: and considering the potential, the value, and the cost of perfection,
Speaker 1: is largely what Whiplash is all about. One thing I've
Speaker 1: learned about you, Adam since joining the show is that
Speaker 1: you have a perfectionist streak. Would you say that's fair?
Speaker 1: That's fair, And to be fair, I can relate a
Speaker 1: bit of the pot calling the kettle black here. Still,
Speaker 1: I wonder what it was like for you to watch
Speaker 1: this striving for musical perfection. Did you find Whiplash affirming
Speaker 1: of such tendencies or cautionary about them? Perhaps it was
Speaker 1: something in between. And is the movie itself, which is
Speaker 1: a bold incorporation of the musical aesthetic in visual form,
Speaker 1: anywhere close to artistic perfection great stuff?
Speaker 2: Whether a piece of art can ever be perfect, of course,
Speaker 2: is a very loaded subject, but it is one I'd
Speaker 2: maybe like to return to if we have time, because
Speaker 2: I do think it's interesting to consider in relation to jazz,
Speaker 2: specifically in the broader sense. I know what you're really
Speaker 2: getting at is did I like this movie? Do I
Speaker 2: think it's a good movie? And yes, I did really
Speaker 2: like this movie. I think it's a very good film.
Speaker 2: And the first part of your prompt nails one of
Speaker 2: the aspects of Whiplash I appreciate the most. It absolutely
Speaker 2: is both affirming of such striving and cautionary about it,
Speaker 2: which is really the only honest position to take. I
Speaker 2: think it would have been so easy for Chizell to
Speaker 2: show the personal cost of Andrew's ambition physically, psychologically, socially,
Speaker 2: and have him renounce that by the end of the
Speaker 2: film and be in a much healthier place, maybe be
Speaker 2: the kid again who could actually play the drums just
Speaker 2: for fun. But Chizelle maybe because this is a personal
Speaker 2: film for him. What little I've read, he was a
Speaker 2: former jazz protege himself and now he's an artist of
Speaker 2: or making movies. He knows how disingenuous that would have been.
Speaker 2: He knows how crucial that drive is in any artistic endeavor. Dangerous, yes,
Speaker 2: but necessary. And by the end of this film it's
Speaker 2: a neat little trick Gizelle has pulled off. He gets
Speaker 2: to have it both ways. It's crowd pleasing and inspirational,
Speaker 2: but also really problematic and disturbing to really think about
Speaker 2: it from the main character's point of view. So there's
Speaker 2: this element of cliche to this film in terms of
Speaker 2: hitting some notes that we want a film like this
Speaker 2: to hit in terms of being uplifting. And then you
Speaker 2: sort of find yourself after you've risen out of your
Speaker 2: seat and find yourself cheering sitting back down and thinking
Speaker 2: what am I excited about? What am I really cheering for?
Speaker 2: It is dark in that way, and I respect quite
Speaker 2: a bit that little trick that Gizelle's pulled off.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that. Use the word trick because that's
Speaker 1: exactly what he does. In a way. All the questions
Speaker 1: that are at the beginning of this film really are
Speaker 1: still there, aren't they when the lights come up? And
Speaker 1: that's what I loved about it, because it explores all
Speaker 1: the possibilities of this being cautionary and how the direction
Speaker 1: this kid is going is dangerous for himself personally, certainly
Speaker 1: for his relationships, yeah, and even for his physical health.
Speaker 1: But then it opens up to consider without ever really
Speaker 1: condoning the methods that the Simmons character uses, but to
Speaker 1: make us really ask is there something that's worth all
Speaker 1: of this that the kid has gone through? And maybe
Speaker 1: perfection We don't want to get too derailed by that
Speaker 1: as a topic, right, Maybe it's just to be your
Speaker 1: best or to truly achieve something, it's going to take
Speaker 1: some sort of sacrificing, some sort of suffering, And then
Speaker 1: you ask yourself, Okay, is that worth it? Or would
Speaker 1: I be better off having other elements of my life
Speaker 1: be healthier and richer. But I never attained that maybe
Speaker 1: one moment, and we get that moment. This was a
Speaker 1: movie that very much worked for me personally as a
Speaker 1: viewer along the same trajectory as Frank the Michael Fassbender
Speaker 1: film with him in the paper mache head mask leading
Speaker 1: a band, and both pictures I was enjoying quite a
Speaker 1: bit all the way through wasn't crazy about, and both
Speaker 1: of them culminates in a performance that ties everything together,
Speaker 1: brings it all together in this climactic scene, and also
Speaker 1: leaves you still questioning. I think, so this doesn't wrap
Speaker 1: things up neatly, but I can totally see how an
Speaker 1: audience would go out of this picture thinking, oh wow,
Speaker 1: how inspiring that was. But really, the teller character Andrew,
Speaker 1: he doesn't have any clear idea of how he should
Speaker 1: live his life as a jazz artist. Where this film ends.
Speaker 1: Then maybe he did a few scenes earlier, and that's
Speaker 1: what I liked about it.
Speaker 2: To your point, specifically about the questions this movie is posing,
Speaker 2: it occurred to me that I actually think it would
Speaker 2: be a really fun personality test to give someone to
Speaker 2: have them watch a scene that happens near the end
Speaker 2: of the movie, and I'll be vague here to not
Speaker 2: spoil anything, but there's a conversation where Fletcher JK. Simmons
Speaker 2: lays out his rationale. He explains why he pushed Andrew
Speaker 2: and his whole ensemble as hard as he did. Take
Speaker 2: that explanation out of the context of the movie. You're
Speaker 2: just meeting this instructor on the street and hearing his
Speaker 2: teaching philosophy. I'm curious how many people would listen and,
Speaker 2: without hesitation, dismiss him and say, I would never want
Speaker 2: to be taught by that man. I couldn't undergo that
Speaker 2: type of process. I don't even want to spend any
Speaker 2: time with him, much less be instructed by him. How
Speaker 2: many people would listen and think, Okay, I get it.
Speaker 2: It sounds rough, but I get it. It could all
Speaker 2: be worth it. Sign me up. Now, take those people,
Speaker 2: the people that said sign me up. Have them watch
Speaker 2: the movie, hear his philosophy. Where this scene appears within
Speaker 2: the context of the movie. You've seen his behavior, you
Speaker 2: see how far he goes, you see all the damage
Speaker 2: he's caused. How many of those people would still say
Speaker 2: sign me up? And how many of them would switch
Speaker 2: their answer to no way. I certainly wasn't unequivocally enthusiastically
Speaker 2: on board, but Josh I was still on board. That's
Speaker 2: how messed up I am. That's how much I buy
Speaker 2: into this notion of artistic great And it's not perfection,
Speaker 2: as you said, because I don't think it's attainable in
Speaker 2: arts anyway. This isn't math or science. There's no formula,
Speaker 2: there's no hard answer, there's no hard right answers. But
Speaker 2: in the striving for a form of perfection, maybe you
Speaker 2: achieve something close, maybe you achieve something transcendent, and in
Speaker 2: that way, maybe it is.
Speaker 1: All worth it. And that's another trick the movie Polls
Speaker 1: is that just when you think you've got this guy
Speaker 1: figured out and demonized, here comes that speech And yeah,
Speaker 1: I was in the same boat as you. I'm thinking, well,
Speaker 1: he's he's maybe got it figured out here and it
Speaker 1: ties into you know, the one line if it's the
Speaker 1: same conversation I'm thinking of, but I'm pretty sure it
Speaker 1: is is when he says something about the worst two
Speaker 1: words in English language are good good job. And doesn't
Speaker 1: that tie into this culture now of every kid's team
Speaker 1: gets a trophy. Right, every kid comes home, whether you're
Speaker 1: in last place or first place, with a ribbon or something.
Speaker 1: And that's the idea behind it, is that we're all
Speaker 1: just here to learn. Now at different contexts. Of course,
Speaker 1: that happens with little kids. Here is well, you know,
Speaker 1: a young adult college age and maybe making that transition
Speaker 1: between Okay, you're bad, get out of my classroom, I'm
Speaker 1: bringing another guy in and at some point you do
Speaker 1: have to have that restriction for the art to breathe,
Speaker 1: and so you see where he's coming from, and the
Speaker 1: movie shifts your perspective. Another interesting question to ask along
Speaker 1: the lines of yours would be what shifts did you
Speaker 1: make during this film? Like where were you agreeing with Simmons?
Speaker 1: Where did you just want to like get him fired? Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think it's a real emotional trajectory that this.
Speaker 2: Picture takes you through, There's no doubt. And I think
Speaker 2: a shorter version of this same challenge it comes in
Speaker 2: the form of a question that happens in a dinner
Speaker 2: table conversation much earlier in the film, where Andrew, in
Speaker 2: justifying his pursuit of this ambition, says, basically, I'd rather
Speaker 2: die at thirty four, but be somebody that people are
Speaker 2: still talking about fifty sixty years from now versus someone
Speaker 2: who lives to be ninety. Yeah, and nobody cares about
Speaker 2: not memorable in any way. That's another question. I think
Speaker 2: a lot of people listening probably have asked themselves at
Speaker 2: some point, and that reaching for greatness. I said this
Speaker 2: movie was one of my most anticipated movies of the
Speaker 2: year because that's something I am always drawn to. Those
Speaker 2: kinds of stories is something that has always fascinated me.
Speaker 2: For whatever reason. It came up a lot recently in
Speaker 2: connection with my top five movie Tattoos. Remember, I was
Speaker 2: paying tribute to know Man on Wire, Felipe Patv pulling
Speaker 2: off this unbelievable feat and all that jazz, Joe Giddy,
Speaker 2: and a character pursuing this perfection and always failing. It
Speaker 2: also connects Josh with something else I'm always preoccupied with.
Speaker 2: It comes up a lot here on the show, which
Speaker 2: is purpose. One of the reasons I think this type
Speaker 2: of ambition is so attractive, even though it's so obviously
Speaker 2: potentially harmful, is that it's simplifies everything. Sure, if your
Speaker 2: entire focus is this goal, whatever that goal is, then
Speaker 2: virtually every decision you have to make has already been
Speaker 2: made for you, or is at least much easier to decide.
Speaker 2: There's another great scene in Whiplash that gets directly at this,
Speaker 2: in both dialogue and also how it shot, which I
Speaker 2: know we want to talk about a little bit. Andrew
Speaker 2: takes this girl he's interested in. He asked her out
Speaker 2: at the movie theater. She's selling popcorn nicole out for pizza,
Speaker 2: and she reveals that she really doesn't know what she
Speaker 2: wants to do with her life. There's no real reason
Speaker 2: why she decided to go to school at Fordham, it
Speaker 2: was just there. She doesn't know what her major is
Speaker 2: yet she's still searching. It's this very kind of vulnerable
Speaker 2: moment and Andrew's reaction. He's a nice enough kid, at
Speaker 2: least at this point in the film. His reaction to
Speaker 2: that isn't mean or hurtful, but his questions are just
Speaker 2: pointed enough that it's quite clear to her and to
Speaker 2: us that he just cannot fathom being so directionless, so
Speaker 2: lacking and drive, so lacking in purpose. And she certainly
Speaker 2: senses it, and the exchange ends awkwardly. But the reason
Speaker 2: we sense it, Josh, It isn't just the words, it's
Speaker 2: because of the editing here in this sequence. It's been
Speaker 2: up to this point in the conversation a pretty standard
Speaker 2: shot reverse shot conversation, and then he asks that first
Speaker 2: leading question and she recognizes the subtext, and the pace
Speaker 2: of the editing quickens. The editor here is Tom Cross.
Speaker 2: It quickens just for that back and forth, a little
Speaker 2: bit of if you've seen the movie Double Time Swing,
Speaker 2: if you will, and it just completely heightens the intensity
Speaker 2: of that scene and draws our focus into what's really
Speaker 2: going on in the back of his mind, which we
Speaker 2: can sense a little bit based on his personality, but
Speaker 2: it's really there because of the way that scene is
Speaker 2: captured and the way it plays out rhythmically.
Speaker 1: Hey, how are you?
Speaker 2: I'm good? Thanks? Good? The usual.
Speaker 1: Look, I don't really know how. I see in your
Speaker 1: law and I think that you're really pretty and would
Speaker 1: you want.
Speaker 2: To go out with me? Ever? Please go away?
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. I'm just messing with you. I'm going
Speaker 2: to make you. Oh my god, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: That's actually pretty mean.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I didn't mean so what's your Oh I'm Andrew,
Speaker 2: Andrew I'm Nicole.
Speaker 1: Nice to meet you, Nicole. I'm glad you mentioned the
Speaker 1: character of Nicole. She's played by Melissa Benowist I believe
Speaker 1: is how you pronounce it, and she only gets a
Speaker 1: handful of scenes, but she's really crucial because there isn't
Speaker 1: really that opposing force in this film for the Miles
Speaker 1: tell her character. We do see his father by Paul Reiser,
Speaker 1: but he's more of an ingratiating, supporting He's not going
Speaker 1: to be real harsh with his son sense, but she
Speaker 1: is that polar opposite. She doesn't, as you said, doesn't
Speaker 1: know what she wants to do, and positions that as
Speaker 1: a worthy to live your life, to explore and not
Speaker 1: have everything laid out in front of you and go
Speaker 1: after it with this driving force. So I like that
Speaker 1: she has that role in the film. And you're right
Speaker 1: about the editing so crucial to talk about in this
Speaker 1: picture because we get so many insert shots I noticed
Speaker 1: that are not only there to convey information, but the
Speaker 1: pacing at which they come are like accent beats and
Speaker 1: a piece of music, and we get them where you'd expect.
Speaker 1: When Andrew joins this elite group and we first see
Speaker 1: them warming up, so we get the moistening of the reads,
Speaker 1: the tuning of the drum keys, all in these quick
Speaker 1: answers procedure very much, very much, But we also get
Speaker 1: these accent beats in other scenes where you wouldn't expect them.
Speaker 1: That date scene between the two of them will get
Speaker 1: a quick one under the table of her foot inching
Speaker 1: toward his, or even the scene where he goes to
Speaker 1: the movies with his father, we just get an insert
Speaker 1: shot of popcorn. And all that does is give us
Speaker 1: this sense of fluidity and movement, so that this is
Speaker 1: a movie that's always on the move, and that kind
Speaker 1: of incorporates this idea of jazz style as well. And
Speaker 1: I do like how Chazelle and the editor Tom Cross
Speaker 1: incorporate that into the film.
Speaker 2: Or whatever, just because he's so constantly in that space.
Speaker 2: But even when he's not listening to music, it seems
Speaker 2: though the music's following, yeah.
Speaker 1: Pursuing him for sure. And even when we get establishing
Speaker 1: shots of New York City, they're quick shots cut to
Speaker 1: the beat of the song that is playing. I do
Speaker 1: want to ask you, though, how you feel about these
Speaker 1: formal choices in that climactic scene which we won't necessarily
Speaker 1: give away what happens, but it is the big scene
Speaker 1: at the end, the one that won me over on
Speaker 1: the movie overall. Yet I did feel like the esthetic
Speaker 1: approach that Chazelle was taking throughout the movie by trying
Speaker 1: to match his visuals with the music, almost went a
Speaker 1: little overboard there. I mean, we get tracking shots, swish pans,
Speaker 1: wide screen shots of the auditorium. This is a performance,
Speaker 1: we can say it's taking place, said a jazz competition,
Speaker 1: I believe, And it was almost even for jazz. It
Speaker 1: was almost too much for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it wasn't for me. I think that that might
Speaker 2: have been though that as someone who does love jazz
Speaker 2: music and who has played in jazz group since seventh grade,
Speaker 2: starting out in sort of middle school and high school
Speaker 2: bands where I didn't really know what jazz was, but
Speaker 2: then actually discovering bebop and that sort of thing and
Speaker 2: really appreciating it playing in different jazz combos, let's just
Speaker 2: say that I was really thankful, or at least the
Speaker 2: audience was really thankful that when I saw this movie
Speaker 2: late on a Sunday night, there was no one else
Speaker 2: in the row with me, because I wasn't just tapping
Speaker 2: my foot. I was, I was music leg I mean yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean I was. I was really into it. So
Speaker 2: honestly I might have been so hypnotized by the music, yeah,
Speaker 2: and the playing that even though I was aware of
Speaker 2: some of the pyrotechnics of the camera, it certainly didn't
Speaker 2: draw me out of it. If anything, it drew me in.
Speaker 2: That's how caught up in the end of this film.
Speaker 2: I was, even as I said, I caught myself also
Speaker 2: thinking about kind of the ramifications of the end of
Speaker 2: the film I love too, Josh, that I honestly didn't
Speaker 2: see it coming.
Speaker 1: You can say I didn't either.
Speaker 2: Now, well, this is exactly where this type of movie's going,
Speaker 2: But the movie takes enough little detours that to get
Speaker 2: to that scene certainly was something I didn't expect.
Speaker 1: And that final scene I think you could describe as
Speaker 1: having a three act structure itself for sure. So there's
Speaker 1: the initial dtour, but it takes a few other turns.
Speaker 2: Also, starting with Miles Teller, the star of this film,
Speaker 2: an actor that you've come to appreciate recently due to
Speaker 2: his performance in The Spectacular. Now I've been a little
Speaker 2: bit on the Teller bandwagon, going back to a few
Speaker 2: earlier performances, What did you think of him here?
Speaker 1: Well, what I liked about his performance here is that
Speaker 1: he goes in a different direction than The Spectacular Now
Speaker 1: and one that was very encouraging because that was a
Speaker 1: movie which very much in the performance and the character
Speaker 1: relied on his charm, and he played that to the hilt.
Speaker 1: I mean, he just had you, even a kid with
Speaker 1: major faults, he had you one over instantaneously. He sort
Speaker 1: of drains himself of that here and it's maybe not
Speaker 1: as ingratiating of afformance, but it's a perfect fit for
Speaker 1: the part and for the movie and for this story
Speaker 1: that's being told. And again I was encouraged that he's
Speaker 1: not concerned with playing somebody who's likable necessarily. He was
Speaker 1: more than willing to go that direction. And you see
Speaker 1: it in that scene, that date scene again, because The
Speaker 1: Spectacular Now is a teenage romance in some levels, so
Speaker 1: it's almost like it could have gone that way. And
Speaker 1: he really puts the emphasis on the drive that Andrew
Speaker 1: has and his willingness, especially in the second date scene,
Speaker 1: to just jettison what he at least thinks might hold
Speaker 1: him back.
Speaker 2: It's funny because whenever an actor plays a performer of
Speaker 2: some kind and maybe there's Oscar talk and I don't
Speaker 2: know if there's going to be for Miles Teller in
Speaker 2: this film, but the question comes up, well, are we
Speaker 2: really awarding or recognizing the performance as an actor or
Speaker 2: actress or is it just that we're all so wowed
Speaker 2: by the fact that, oh, look, Jeff Bridges can play
Speaker 2: the guitar, or look at how great they sing in
Speaker 2: this scene. You're almost more wowed by the vocal performance
Speaker 2: than maybe any of the acting. I don't know whether
Speaker 2: we should give an actor extra credit for that, but
Speaker 2: maybe we should give Miles Teller some extra credit Josh
Speaker 2: for the drumming, because lots of people can sing pretty
Speaker 2: darn well. Not very many people, relatively speaking, on this
Speaker 2: planet can play the drums or even fake playing the
Speaker 2: drums at this level. And without that ability, and of
Speaker 2: course he got some lessons, he had some background in it,
Speaker 2: but he did go through a boot camp that paid
Speaker 2: off really well. Without his ability and the commitment he shows,
Speaker 2: this whole movie falls apart. I said that when we
Speaker 2: were looking ahead to this movie, you can't fake jazz
Speaker 2: drumming at this level, and the movie doesn't. I'm sure
Speaker 2: there are a few tricks at times where it cuts
Speaker 2: to some of those close ups. Maybe he's not playing entirely,
Speaker 2: but there are plenty of scenes where it's entirely clear,
Speaker 2: there's no way around it that Miles Teller is playing
Speaker 2: the drums.
Speaker 1: And also.
Speaker 2: You believe it every second beyond that, though you're absolutely
Speaker 2: right that what he brings here is a little bit
Speaker 2: more of the wounded, vulnerable soul if he played in
Speaker 2: John Cameron Mitchell's Rabbit Hole, though he was much younger then,
Speaker 2: and he doesn't rely on you said charm, you can
Speaker 2: call it charisma he displayed in The Spectacular Now. I
Speaker 2: wrote about this on Letterbox when I shared a few
Speaker 2: comments about that movie. He has to convince us that
Speaker 2: he is one of the most popular kids in school,
Speaker 2: despite the fact that he's not one of the best
Speaker 2: looking kids probably in school. He's certainly not one of
Speaker 2: the most well dressed kids in school, and he's certainly
Speaker 2: not one of the richest. And those are kind of
Speaker 2: the three general attributes that can help propel you to
Speaker 2: winning over any group, especially in high school. He doesn't
Speaker 2: have any of that. It's just his sheer persona. And
Speaker 2: I've talked about this a lot, but a movie like Footloose,
Speaker 2: he's playing that Chris Penn Willard performance. I didn't like
Speaker 2: that Craig Brewer reymake at all. But the one thing
Speaker 2: I did enjoy watching in that film was the charisma
Speaker 2: of Miles Teller. Andrew, as you said, has none of
Speaker 2: that charisma. He is in some ways a blank slate
Speaker 2: beyond this drive.
Speaker 1: What does his dad say about him? At one point
Speaker 1: you have trouble looking people in the asp Yeah, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: And that's the opposite of these others.
Speaker 2: I think he's a character who, if he's not behind
Speaker 2: the drum set, is instantly forgettable. You wouldn't even be
Speaker 2: aware that he was in the room unless he was
Speaker 2: actually playing. Again, in sharp contrast to the other characters
Speaker 2: we've mentioned. More than that, I said that there's a
Speaker 2: point earlier in the film where he's pretty likable. Of course,
Speaker 2: as he gets more driven, he becomes more and more unlikable,
Speaker 2: downright rude, And that does get back to what I
Speaker 2: thought was a really interesting point that I singled out
Speaker 2: from Alex ross Perry last week talking about Listen Up, Philip.
Speaker 2: This movie proves that it's not a genre film per se,
Speaker 2: like an action movie, though maybe it is if the
Speaker 2: genre is kind of the inspirational, mentor protege movie in
Speaker 2: some ways. And we've talked about how this movie contradicts
Speaker 2: some of those cliches. But we forgive narcissistic characters when
Speaker 2: we want to see them succeed when they have a
Speaker 2: clear objective, something they're pursuing, and Andrew does so even
Speaker 2: when he's unlikable. We really feel for him.
Speaker 1: We do, and the main reason I think we do
Speaker 1: is because he has an antagonist, and this is Simmons' movie.
Speaker 1: I mean, the role is built for a big performance
Speaker 1: that the scenery here has been pre salted, and the
Speaker 1: real challenge for Simmons is just not to wallow the
Speaker 1: thing whole. I mean, because you could easily go bonkers
Speaker 1: with a part like this, and I don't think he does.
Speaker 1: I think he stays true to the mania and the cruelty,
Speaker 1: the harshness of this character, but he never seems to
Speaker 1: be doing it outside of the character. And maybe the
Speaker 1: best way to describe that is a lot of the
Speaker 1: stuff that he insults his students with is funny in
Speaker 1: a way. Cruelly funny, sure, but he never seems to
Speaker 1: take pleasure in the laugh. So Simmons doesn't pause and
Speaker 1: let that moment take over the scene because he's still
Speaker 1: angry that that kid screwed up. And that's what you see.
Speaker 1: So I really think you could call this one of
Speaker 1: those big oscar bating performances. It will get a lot
Speaker 1: of attention because it's so loud, but I think it's
Speaker 1: very subtle too. I mean, think about the scene early
Speaker 1: on where he takes Andrew's side in the hall and
Speaker 1: asks him just some personal questions, talks to him in
Speaker 1: a lie a tone, and you think, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: you still think he's probably jerking him around, right, because
Speaker 1: we've seen enough now this can't really be him, but
Speaker 1: you're wondering maybe, well, maybe he's.
Speaker 2: Just jerking him around. This is what I was thinking anyway,
Speaker 2: in that he's just trying to put him at ease.
Speaker 2: So even though he is doing something quote unquote nice,
Speaker 2: it's still a form of manipulation.
Speaker 1: It's a former manipulation on two levels.
Speaker 2: I think there becomes another form.
Speaker 1: He's putting him at ease, but then when he gets
Speaker 1: in there and screws up he uses some of that
Speaker 1: information to insult him and just it's diabolical really. But
Speaker 1: even though the roles interchange a bit as the movie
Speaker 1: goes on, I also don't think we ever get hints
Speaker 1: of the other side of the Fletcher character, which would
Speaker 1: be a generic way to do it, you know, show
Speaker 1: a scene of him at home with his family or
Speaker 1: something like that. We get a very quick shot of
Speaker 1: him talking to you get the sense it's a former
Speaker 1: coworker's younger daughter in a nicer voice. But really, this
Speaker 1: movie is not too concerned with giving Fletcher this other
Speaker 1: nicer side. They're committed to his awfulness, and so is Simmons.
Speaker 2: You're right, and maybe there is one bigger scene beyond
Speaker 2: that scene with the daughter where a little bit of
Speaker 2: humanity comes out in him. We do learn a little
Speaker 2: bit later some information that undercuts the humanity that's saying
Speaker 2: all that, Yeah, but the performance is absolutely genuine and
Speaker 2: there seems to be real emotion under there, And I
Speaker 2: think that's what's so fascinating is even in the moment
Speaker 2: and then even thinking about it later, you can't help
Speaker 2: but think that this emotional scene that he has in
Speaker 2: front of his band, where he seems to let his
Speaker 2: guard down. He's different than he's been at any other
Speaker 2: point in the film. You can't help but completely believe it,
Speaker 2: but then find yourself also saying, but he's probably doing
Speaker 2: it just because he's been writing them so hard. He's
Speaker 2: using something that's real, but he is going to exploit it, Yeah,
Speaker 2: for his own good, and that good is that he
Speaker 2: can only brate them so much. There has to be
Speaker 2: that one little break where he shows that to him
Speaker 2: even if he doesn't really want to let them in,
Speaker 2: he has to show them that so they believe that
Speaker 2: he really cares about them, that all he's doing is
Speaker 2: for them. He's hurting them, but it's for their own good.
Speaker 2: They need moments like that that he gives them there,
Speaker 2: and that that complexity the J. K. Simmons is playing
Speaker 2: there in that scene is really something.
Speaker 1: Why do you suppose I just hurled a chair at
Speaker 1: your head?
Speaker 2: And even I don't know, true you do the tempo?
Speaker 2: Were you rushing or were you dragging? I don't know?
Speaker 1: Start counting here, five six and four?
Speaker 2: Damn it, look at me one.
Speaker 1: Two three four one two three four one two three?
Speaker 2: Was I rushing or was I dragging?
Speaker 1: And that brings us back to this idea of perfection,
Speaker 1: because I don't ever get the sense with the Fletcher
Speaker 1: character that he's doing any of this to glorify himself
Speaker 1: as their instructor, or even to win them first place
Speaker 1: so that he becomes known as this teacher who's won
Speaker 1: so many contests. He you believe is doing it because
Speaker 1: this is the best way he understands to get them
Speaker 1: to play as perfectly as they can. And there's something relatable,
Speaker 1: especially if you have perfectionist streak within you, there's something
Speaker 1: relatable to that, and so there's a separation between his
Speaker 1: tactics and his goal.
Speaker 2: He's so scary here that I think he's actually scarier
Speaker 2: than Vern Schillinger, who is the character most of us
Speaker 2: probably first saw JK. Simmons on screen, and it was
Speaker 2: HBO's Oz and Josh he's playing there. I don't know
Speaker 2: if you ever watched Oz. He's playing a neo Nazi, brutal,
Speaker 2: murdering rapist.
Speaker 1: Okay, he's didn't see Oz, but I can picture.
Speaker 2: He's one of the scariest guys in that entire prison,
Speaker 2: one that's full of scary characters, and he's actually probably
Speaker 2: more terrifying here, because at least Shillinger has some fun.
Speaker 2: There is a little bit of a lighter side to
Speaker 2: him that, as you said, this movie doesn't really give us.
Speaker 2: There's a moment in this movie. It's like the second
Speaker 2: time we see the JK. Simmons character, he walks into
Speaker 2: another band rehearsal one that Oh He Andrew character Miles
Speaker 2: Teller is performing in and just the way he walks
Speaker 2: into the room, I burst out laughing. Actually, I mean
Speaker 2: in a very good way. He is such a force.
Speaker 2: He has such little regard for anyone else around him
Speaker 2: that when he walks into this room, it's like a
Speaker 2: hurricane comes in the room. Everybody stops. It's super loud,
Speaker 2: even the instructor. The other instructor kowtows too. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: it just becomes his class. And I love that moment.
Speaker 2: I did think about a lot. You mentioned Full Metal Jacket.
Speaker 2: That's here Black Swan. Of course this movie really mirrors
Speaker 2: closely as well, and the one key difference being in
Speaker 2: the mentor protege relationship between Toma and the Nina character
Speaker 2: in Black Swan. And what we get here is there's
Speaker 2: that sexual element psychologically that really rereaks Havoc and black Swan.
Speaker 2: We don't get that here, But beyond that, there's also
Speaker 2: some more subtlety to a character like Toma and black Swan,
Speaker 2: because he does have to sort of play a psychological
Speaker 2: game and insinuate himself to get her to do what
Speaker 2: he wants her to ultimately do, and we don't ever
Speaker 2: see that. It's not about jesting the right way to
Speaker 2: do something or get at it through your own devices.
Speaker 2: He's going to compel you to do it the way
Speaker 2: he wants.
Speaker 1: You to do it, to get on my tempo.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right. And that doesn't mean that, of course,
Speaker 2: it doesn't still hurt when he compels you that way,
Speaker 2: but you know at least that he's going to be
Speaker 2: blatant about it, that he is going to impose his
Speaker 2: will on you. And I do think it gets back. Actually,
Speaker 2: one of the things I love about this performance is
Speaker 2: it gets back to this idea of purpose. Everything he
Speaker 2: does is with a purpose. He knows exactly what he
Speaker 2: wants in every single moment he comes into that classroom,
Speaker 2: not to observe, but to find a new player. He
Speaker 2: comes in, he points him to exactly the bars he
Speaker 2: wants to go to that scene where he looks at
Speaker 2: the score and ises it for about three seconds and
Speaker 2: then says, cute. You know, he got out of it
Speaker 2: exactly what he needed to get out of it, and
Speaker 2: now he's going to have this transaction. And even what
Speaker 2: he wears black the same thing every day. Yes, it's
Speaker 2: kind of artsy, but is also simple. He's not going
Speaker 2: to waste any time picking out his outfit. There's nothing
Speaker 2: wasted in his box as well. He's a very lean,
Speaker 2: muscular figure here. There's no extra hair, there's nothing he
Speaker 2: has to think about to take care of himself except
Speaker 2: music and driving this band and achieving that level of
Speaker 2: perfection if he can.
Speaker 1: And there's a certain honesty to a character like that
Speaker 1: as well. I mean, he is diabolical in the information
Speaker 1: he uses to motivate his players sometimes, but you do know,
Speaker 1: as you're saying, what his ultimate goal is, and so
Speaker 1: you know where you stand. It's very black and white.
Speaker 1: If you can't play, to quote my tempo, you're out.
Speaker 1: If you can, you're in. And that's how the landscape
Speaker 1: is with him.
Speaker 2: I said, maybe we could get to the topic of
Speaker 2: perfection and how it relates to jazz. I think maybe
Speaker 2: we can save it for a little bit of bonus
Speaker 2: content on another show. That's Whiplash. It is out now
Speaker 2: in limited release. If you see it and agree or
Speaker 2: disagree with our takes, you can email us feedback at
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Speaker 2: conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Good Bye.