Speaker 1: From how Stuff Works dot com. This is the stuff
Speaker 1: of life. Welcome to the Stuff of Life. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Julie Douglas. Does life ever feel made up to you?
Speaker 1: Like if you squint hard enough, it could all pixelate
Speaker 1: before your eyes? And that, beyond a few guiding principles
Speaker 1: like building up our resources, finding shelter, and protecting our
Speaker 1: limited lifespans, that everything else is up for tweaking, that
Speaker 1: we can create and demolish our lives several times over.
Speaker 1: And did these ideas begin to form in the womb
Speaker 1: the time when we were surrounded by light and dark shadows,
Speaker 1: mysterious sounds, and strange taste. After all, it was the
Speaker 1: first virtual sensory playground we ever knew, a reality external
Speaker 1: to us, filled with possibilities. We just needed a storyline,
Speaker 1: a narrative, to gather up the sensations put into ideas
Speaker 1: and then find a purpose a quest. Even in this way,
Speaker 1: you could say that life is just a game, one
Speaker 1: that we're born into. My name is Sadie and I
Speaker 1: like to play Minecraft. I'm seven years old. I just
Speaker 1: like how the the natural terrain makes it feel like
Speaker 1: real life, except there's not like the other shapes except
Speaker 1: there's squares and circles, but um, I like it because
Speaker 1: the natural terrain is just it's just outstanding. In this episode,
Speaker 1: we look at how we create games within the game
Speaker 1: of life. We talked to an app developer about using
Speaker 1: data to level up and meet new challenges. We visit
Speaker 1: a game design company and find out how the wild
Speaker 1: world of the multiplayer online battle arena works. And we
Speaker 1: check in with my house to works coworkers, two of
Speaker 1: them World of Warcraft veterans, about the allure of stepping
Speaker 1: into another universe. But first we look into the idea
Speaker 1: of running our lives like a game. Do you ever
Speaker 1: feel like in real life you sometimes are playing a game. Yeah, sometimes,
Speaker 1: except it's kind of more easier to control yourself in
Speaker 1: real life or the game in real life. Some would
Speaker 1: say we're predisposed to engage in gaming to better control life.
Speaker 1: Think of all the ways we're participating in a kind
Speaker 1: of game of data, albeit unintentionally. There's the scoring system
Speaker 1: of social media, where the more followers and the more
Speaker 1: likes to the thoughts that you distribute to your followers,
Speaker 1: the greater the reward to your ego. And then there's
Speaker 1: the more mundane stuff like building up your reward points
Speaker 1: on airline carrier for some future adventure you imagine you
Speaker 1: might have. The thing is that some of us will
Speaker 1: gain our lives no matter what. For instance, Ben Franklin
Speaker 1: might have been the first life logger, the first person
Speaker 1: to try to evaluate every aspect of his existence. And
Speaker 1: for the Ben Franklin's among us, they're living in the
Speaker 1: golden age of information. Does this movement called quantified self
Speaker 1: that is made up of people who already tracking lots
Speaker 1: of these things about their life and trying to define
Speaker 1: insights and correlations kind of like we're doing. That's Josh Sharp,
Speaker 1: the co founder of the app exists. This is a
Speaker 1: personal analytics platform that collects all of the data that
Speaker 1: you're already tracking about your life and tries to find
Speaker 1: trends and insights in that data. So we track things
Speaker 1: like your steps and your sleep, events that you have
Speaker 1: on during the day, your productivity, social media stats, even
Speaker 1: the weather, and then we can find relationships between these
Speaker 1: things and how they affect your habits and what happens
Speaker 1: during your day. The app also has a mood component
Speaker 1: that asks you to rate your day from one to five,
Speaker 1: along with a few notes that you can jot down
Speaker 1: about the specifics, and this is where some pretty interesting
Speaker 1: insights arise when the app analyzes the data and finds
Speaker 1: correlations and then allows you to be a detective. So
Speaker 1: in terms of mood, I have insights that I have
Speaker 1: a better day when I have more events on and
Speaker 1: when I get more steps, it's likely to be something
Speaker 1: like going to the theater or going through to a
Speaker 1: concert or having coffee with friends rather than something work related.
Speaker 1: So I know that when I'm out doing things and
Speaker 1: seeing people, combining that with the steps correlation, I also
Speaker 1: mentioned that's what makes me have a better day, and
Speaker 1: that's interesting to me because as an introvert that works
Speaker 1: from home, I'm not seeing people a lot of the time,
Speaker 1: and I'm often not motivated to make the effort to
Speaker 1: go out and do that. So it's quite powerful to
Speaker 1: have that reminder you should go out and do stuff more,
Speaker 1: you should see people. It will make you happier. There's
Speaker 1: even the ability to see what sort of correlations emerge
Speaker 1: from the music you listen to. If I want to
Speaker 1: be more productive, I have a correlation that I listened
Speaker 1: to more Radiohead and more Ryan Adams when I'm more productive.
Speaker 1: I don't know how Ryan Adams would feel about that.
Speaker 1: More generalized findings are that people tend to reap themselves
Speaker 1: happier on Fridays and Saturdays, but Sunday and that's more
Speaker 1: of a so so day. By the time people are
Speaker 1: rating their moods on Sunday night, they're dreading and going
Speaker 1: back to work on Monday. And we actually can see
Speaker 1: from from our data across all of our users that
Speaker 1: people have the worst day of the week on Mondays
Speaker 1: and Tuesdays. That's not to say that we're all going
Speaker 1: to have crappy Mondays and Tuesdays, only that statistically the
Speaker 1: odds are fire for it. And while all this information
Speaker 1: is intriguing, Josh Sharp found that it's the mood aspect
Speaker 1: to the app that's most popular with users. This ability
Speaker 1: to build out a story about their day. And we
Speaker 1: weren't really sure how how well this would work because
Speaker 1: it's the one thing that you have to do manually.
Speaker 1: We can't grab this style from anywhere else. You have
Speaker 1: to tell us how your day was. And it turns
Speaker 1: out that it's a really powerful habit. People really like
Speaker 1: reflecting on their day at the end of the day
Speaker 1: and picking this writing for whether the day was okay
Speaker 1: or good or great. Um, And so we found that
Speaker 1: this is kind of built up a habit for many users,
Speaker 1: but they'll enjoy reflecting on the day at the end
Speaker 1: of the day. Well, some of us use data to
Speaker 1: build reality and feel empowered. Some of us use data
Speaker 1: to unlock skills and achievements in a parallel world. I
Speaker 1: just think about like, um, if oh, let's say, um,
Speaker 1: I'm hiking through a jungle and I discover a jungle tempole,
Speaker 1: I feel really accomplished because those things are kind of rare.
Speaker 1: And yeah, so actually trying to really were Is there
Speaker 1: anything else that we haven't covered here that you would
Speaker 1: like to talk about Minecraft that you want people to know, Um, well,
Speaker 1: how to make an iron golem? The Minecraft golem is
Speaker 1: an imposing figure, an attribute it shares with another gaming archetype,
Speaker 1: the tank. Some players are going to choose a character
Speaker 1: who's more defensive and tanky, and their job is to
Speaker 1: suck up damage from the other team. That's Todd Harris,
Speaker 1: co founder and CEO of High Res Studios, a game
Speaker 1: to elopment company that specializes in games like Smite, which
Speaker 1: uses a third person multiplayer online battle arena. He's describing
Speaker 1: one of the archetypes that a player can take on
Speaker 1: when joining a team. Someone else on the team is
Speaker 1: going to be more aggressive and maybe be able to
Speaker 1: do a lot of damage, but they're going to be
Speaker 1: pretty fragile, more of a glass cannon it's called in gaming,
Speaker 1: where they need protection of their teammates, but they're going
Speaker 1: to be able to output a lot of damage. And
Speaker 1: so just like a game like basketball, where you have
Speaker 1: specializations between the center and the guard and you probably
Speaker 1: can't switch those players, people over time developed these specializations
Speaker 1: and at the very beginning of the match, they will
Speaker 1: within the match lobby call out their role. They're saying,
Speaker 1: I'm going to play support, or I'm gonna play jungle,
Speaker 1: or I'm going to take the mid lane, and the
Speaker 1: community knows that the other roles have to be filled
Speaker 1: if they want the best chance to win. For a
Speaker 1: little context here, Smite is based on ancient myths. Players
Speaker 1: can take on the visage of seventy five different mythical beings, gods,
Speaker 1: and goddesses from around the globe. You could be a
Speaker 1: tank like Athena or Hermes, or a hunter like Egyptian
Speaker 1: goddess Nief. Once they have their roles, and let's say
Speaker 1: I'm going to be more of a tank. I'm going
Speaker 1: to be kind of a more supportive character with a
Speaker 1: lot of health but not be able to do a
Speaker 1: lot of damage. Well, now within the game, there's going
Speaker 1: to be you know, ten to twenty different characters. I
Speaker 1: might choose to fulfill that role. I'm really good at
Speaker 1: the character Sylvanas. He's a tree god who was a
Speaker 1: small character inside of a giant tree, and he has
Speaker 1: four abilities that have been designed to be consistent with
Speaker 1: his lore, with his mythology, but makes sense within our
Speaker 1: universe and our game rules, And so I will have
Speaker 1: had to have mastered those four abilities and work in
Speaker 1: conjunction with my teammates who also have four distinct abilities,
Speaker 1: and then go up against another team. If you're already
Speaker 1: seeing a matrix of characters, players and skill levels beginning
Speaker 1: to form, then it's easy to understand why this kind
Speaker 1: of game requires something called a matchmaker. Behind the scenes,
Speaker 1: we have software that's called the matchmaker, and its job
Speaker 1: is to make sure that your group of five is
Speaker 1: evenly matched as evenly as possible with another group of
Speaker 1: five it knows every game that you played, how many
Speaker 1: you won, how many you lost, and even whether you
Speaker 1: want or lost, what your contribution level was. And matchmaking
Speaker 1: is very simple if it's a one versus one game,
Speaker 1: but when it comes to a team game, it's much
Speaker 1: more complicated because you have to parse out the individual
Speaker 1: skill level combined with the team and what if out
Speaker 1: of the five people on the team, two people play
Speaker 1: together all the time and they were matched with another
Speaker 1: three people that play together all the time versus three
Speaker 1: people who are randoms. So there's a lot of both
Speaker 1: math and really machine learning algorithm around what makes a
Speaker 1: good match. Most players are aware that the matchmaker is
Speaker 1: running behind the scenes, but not I'll realize the amount
Speaker 1: of world building that goes into every one of the
Speaker 1: characters that they play. Take the Egyptian goddess Nith. Fifteen
Speaker 1: different people will contribute to her character, beginning with a
Speaker 1: researcher who constructs her mythology explore the whole universe. Then
Speaker 1: once that's isolated down, a three D modeler is actually
Speaker 1: going to construct the geometry. It's basically like digital sculpting,
Speaker 1: and most of those people have sculpting backgrounds. Then in
Speaker 1: an artist is going to do the texture work and
Speaker 1: actually think of it as painting on the colors and
Speaker 1: the materials of the character. Where's their skin, where's their
Speaker 1: cloth and fabric, where's their metal? What colors are going
Speaker 1: to be presented? How is that consistent with the mythological
Speaker 1: pantheon and feels like it fits within the family. Then
Speaker 1: a rigger is going to get involved. Who's going to
Speaker 1: put virtual bones and take that static sculpture and make
Speaker 1: it so that it can be manipulated by the next phase,
Speaker 1: which is an animator who's going to be breathing life
Speaker 1: into the character and doing key frame animation for every attack.
Speaker 1: Then it goes on and on and on and just like,
Speaker 1: this is not the sort of game that's put together casually.
Speaker 1: It's not the kind of game that's played casually. It's
Speaker 1: very strategic, but very fast paced. I say, it's like
Speaker 1: speed chess played in a team format. And that's the
Speaker 1: level of thinking and teamwork required to play these games,
Speaker 1: which is why for people that are playing them within tournaments,
Speaker 1: I mean, they're spending tremendous time mastering the game. I
Speaker 1: mean there are people out there whose full time job
Speaker 1: is playing Smite and they're earning a living doing that,
Speaker 1: being watched by other people and um and earning a
Speaker 1: full time living through a combination of prizing, companies sponsoring them,
Speaker 1: people watching their own content on YouTube and Twitch and
Speaker 1: monetizing that, and it really has become a whole new
Speaker 1: career path of being a professional gamer. To give you
Speaker 1: an idea of Smite's reach, consider that hundreds of thousands
Speaker 1: of people play it on a daily basis, and according
Speaker 1: to Todd Harris, there are fourteen million registered accounts, meaning
Speaker 1: fourteen million people have played it at least east once.
Speaker 1: It's a lifestyle for a lot of folks, so they're
Speaker 1: not just playing the game, they're spectating, watching other people
Speaker 1: on YouTube, they're doing cosplay, dressing up like their favorite character,
Speaker 1: and really um. For people who get attached to a
Speaker 1: game or set of games, it is a big part
Speaker 1: of their identity and their lifestyle. What keeps people engaged, though,
Speaker 1: is the ability to inspire a state of flow in
Speaker 1: the player. N Hi Chick sent me High is one
Speaker 1: of the founding fathers of positive psychology, and he was
Speaker 1: interested in exploring flashes of intense living against the dull
Speaker 1: background of everyday life. He called this a state of flow.
Speaker 1: In his studies, he found that people who dipped into
Speaker 1: flow were happier than their non flow counterparts. But there
Speaker 1: have to be certain conditions met in order to engage
Speaker 1: and flow, like a clear set of goals, a self
Speaker 1: contained universe, immediate feedback, a manageable challenge not too hard,
Speaker 1: not too easy, and a sense of troll over the situation.
Speaker 1: And these are the kinds of conditions that games deliver
Speaker 1: in spades. And though would it be easy to say
Speaker 1: that games like Smite are successful just because they inspire flow,
Speaker 1: but they forced players to find their edge, the truth
Speaker 1: is is that players find themselves in the midst of
Speaker 1: a shared experience. On the one level, of players have
Speaker 1: a meta relationship with the game designers, who continue to
Speaker 1: be blown away at the players emergent behaviors that they
Speaker 1: played the characters in ways they could have never imagined.
Speaker 1: And then there are the players charging forth together in lockstep,
Speaker 1: speaking a coded gaming language transported to another universe, informing
Speaker 1: relationships in that universe. I told Julie the other day
Speaker 1: that I'm a recovering World of Warcraft addict, uh and
Speaker 1: I have been. I've had my all, my chips and
Speaker 1: I've been clean for I think five years. That's not
Speaker 1: how long I have to hear go to the same groups,
Speaker 1: set around and drink coffee at Share War Stories. I'm
Speaker 1: Christian Seger. I am one of the co hosts of
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind and Right for Brain Stuff
Speaker 1: and several of our other video shows here at how
Speaker 1: Stuff Works. And I am Terra c. V Wilson. I
Speaker 1: am co host of Stuffy miss in History Class, and
Speaker 1: I'm also the editorial director of how Stuff Works dot com.
Speaker 1: Christian and Tracy have been steeped in gaming since childhood.
Speaker 1: I've been playing games like role playing games since i
Speaker 1: was a little kid. Uh And it's so gaming has
Speaker 1: always meant to me like groups storytelling, That's what I've
Speaker 1: always connected it with. Like when you're playing with other people,
Speaker 1: you're you're like creating an experience together, but you're also
Speaker 1: sort of telling a story together. And that's what I
Speaker 1: love about it. I've been playing since I was a kid,
Speaker 1: and playing role playing games since I was a kid.
Speaker 1: But I was really playing like the single player old
Speaker 1: Sierra games. Oh yeah, like Kids Quest, King's Quest, all
Speaker 1: like all of those. I was really really into you
Speaker 1: as a kid, but I was a deeply socially awkward kid,
Speaker 1: and I also lived, uh and where we lived was
Speaker 1: kind of rural, and so it was kind of a
Speaker 1: whole to get to anybody's house to play with them,
Speaker 1: And so I did a lot of very solitary playing
Speaker 1: with all these video games that were kind of a
Speaker 1: way of escape. They tied to a lot of things
Speaker 1: that I really liked about reading, because I was also
Speaker 1: really really into reading books, and so it was like
Speaker 1: I was playing in the story and that was awesome.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't until I became an adult that I
Speaker 1: started playing things that were more of a multiplayer situation
Speaker 1: and it became like a group social activity to play
Speaker 1: World of Warcraft together as an adult. Gaming provided a
Speaker 1: different benefit to Christian, one he can identify now that
Speaker 1: he's had time away from World of Warcraft. I think, like,
Speaker 1: now that I look back on it, like the relaxation
Speaker 1: of feeling like I had control over something in my life. Right, Like,
Speaker 1: so the outside, like real world is so chaotic and
Speaker 1: difficult to understand sometimes times, and at the time, I
Speaker 1: was in grad school, so I was like overwhelmed all
Speaker 1: the time with this this information that was getting poured
Speaker 1: into me, and it was the only way I could
Speaker 1: relax and be like I have control over this, Like
Speaker 1: if I do this particular task this many times, then
Speaker 1: I know what the result is going to be. And
Speaker 1: I it had like a sort of cause and effect
Speaker 1: correlation that I didn't feel like I had in real life.
Speaker 1: And sometimes I would just do stuff that didn't even
Speaker 1: have any like consequence to it, like for hours, like fishing,
Speaker 1: Like I would just go fishing in World of Warcraft
Speaker 1: and just sit there and just catch fish. I had
Speaker 1: the I had the fishing title, the one you got, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I won the Stengel Thorne Vale fishing things and
Speaker 1: I had the fishing fishing poles like all of those things. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought it was the best. Like I was just like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is so relaxing in the way that I'm sure
Speaker 1: that many people, especially outdoorsmen, like go and fish for
Speaker 1: relaxation in the real world, but for me, it was
Speaker 1: like on my laptop in my living room. For Tracy,
Speaker 1: gaming transcends the road aspects of day to day life.
Speaker 1: A lot of the stories that we read as kids
Speaker 1: are about people are overcoming something, and I for a
Speaker 1: lot of folks, when you grow up into adulthood, your
Speaker 1: life is just kind of boring. Like your obstacles are
Speaker 1: things like paying your rent and buying food, and those
Speaker 1: are legitimate things to be concerned about, but you know,
Speaker 1: they don't have the kind of weight that a lot
Speaker 1: of the things that we are used to reading about
Speaker 1: as heroic. UH. And so when you get into a
Speaker 1: video game and you get to go do something, even
Speaker 1: if it doesn't seem like something big, but it's something
Speaker 1: different and it's something that seems important, that can be
Speaker 1: an awesome thing to get to feel like you're achieving
Speaker 1: when your real life is achieving things like showing up
Speaker 1: to work on time and paying all of your bills
Speaker 1: and not letting your house fall into complete disrepair through
Speaker 1: your own neglect. Like, none of that seems very interesting
Speaker 1: in comparison to uh going on a bunch of quests
Speaker 1: so that you can literally turn into a bird and
Speaker 1: fly around. So there's an idea that's been around since
Speaker 1: two tent Let's call it the gamification of everything, that
Speaker 1: we can take this question the state of flow we
Speaker 1: funding games and apply it to all aspects of life.
Speaker 1: Gets down to defining who you are, right and like,
Speaker 1: gamification gives you metrics to help you to define who
Speaker 1: you are, and we like to think that based on merit,
Speaker 1: that's how we accelerate and level up. This has led
Speaker 1: to some companies offering, say virtual badges to encourage people
Speaker 1: to turn in their reimbursement receipts on time, or scoring
Speaker 1: points to employees who contribute to internal forums where their
Speaker 1: posts are light. These are ideas that Christian witnessed a
Speaker 1: few years back at south By Southwest, a kind of
Speaker 1: tech clearinghouse of films, interactive media, concerts, workshops and ideas.
Speaker 1: You think as I was reading through this stuff that
Speaker 1: you brought in this quote by this guy, Ian Bogo
Speaker 1: story says uh. More specifically, gamification is marketing bull invented
Speaker 1: by consultants as a mean to capture the wild, coveted
Speaker 1: beast that is video games and to domesticate it for
Speaker 1: use in the gray, hopeless waste land of big business
Speaker 1: where bullsh already reigns. Anyway, that was exactly what I
Speaker 1: was seeing at south By Southwest. The efforts can be
Speaker 1: pretty ham fisted, and let's face it, mandated play is
Speaker 1: not play. Moreover, it comes down to what motivates the individual.
Speaker 1: Game designer Jane McGonagall explores the impact of the individual
Speaker 1: in her world bettering games which draw on collaboration to
Speaker 1: solve real world problems like climate change and hunger. That
Speaker 1: philosophy for her started with her being very ill and
Speaker 1: and basically she made a game for herself to help
Speaker 1: get better, where her sister would kind of contact her
Speaker 1: every day to give her request and and it was
Speaker 1: really important to her recovering from being so ill um
Speaker 1: and so then she applied that idea get to a
Speaker 1: lot of other things, but she did apply it in
Speaker 1: a way that it was a lot more about making
Speaker 1: the world better and making your life better. In the
Speaker 1: Gonicles example, it's about life imitating games, but at the
Speaker 1: core it's about connecting and reaching out across time and space.
Speaker 1: My fiance and I played multiplayer games together all the
Speaker 1: time for a lot of our relationship when it was
Speaker 1: long distance, we played Minecraft together and we built basically
Speaker 1: a Minecraft world that was our world. The release updates
Speaker 1: of Minecraft periodically and new stuff gets introduced into the world,
Speaker 1: and we got to this point where we had explored
Speaker 1: so far beyond where we had built our home in
Speaker 1: the game that when new stuff would come out, we
Speaker 1: would have to go farther and farther to figure for
Speaker 1: new stuff to spawn in the world. When it spawned,
Speaker 1: a new chunk of the map. Uh. And so my
Speaker 1: fiance was like, what if I carved out our home
Speaker 1: and like plopped it into a new map and then
Speaker 1: we would have the new stuff. And I said, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: we have to make sure our world that we created
Speaker 1: together that means something to us makes it into this
Speaker 1: new thing. Otherwise we're not doing it. Um And he'd
Speaker 1: basically do a big square and cut it out of
Speaker 1: the map that got all of the things that were
Speaker 1: important to us that we had built together and put
Speaker 1: them into a new world, which was pretty awesome. You
Speaker 1: can still see in the world that cut lines where
Speaker 1: he did that, like your walk up, and they'll be
Speaker 1: a sheer cliff old world versus a new world, Old
Speaker 1: world versus new world. What's beautiful about this is that
Speaker 1: the home they built together in Minecraft is an interactive
Speaker 1: metaphor for their relationship, the ways in which the borders
Speaker 1: change and grow. I have this question for you. It's
Speaker 1: kind of a bizarre question. You might need to ponder
Speaker 1: it for a moment. But what if real life it
Speaker 1: was like Minecraft? Would you like that? Not? Really? I
Speaker 1: love real life a lot because there weren't coffee clubs
Speaker 1: and oranges and these recording things. Real life gives us
Speaker 1: games and games give us a better life, a way
Speaker 1: to work out our fears and desires, a way to
Speaker 1: bridge a path to someone else. We can have our
Speaker 1: coffee cups are oranges, are recording things, and we can
Speaker 1: create a parallel world to place them in, including love
Speaker 1: a Minecraft poem for your birthday. Tedious excision, Like severing
Speaker 1: mold lines from a crusader, you raise our our home
Speaker 1: from its played out old world, lifted up like a
Speaker 1: cloud hoisted castle, oaken arc driven by many waters, up
Speaker 1: from a still plane. It drifts like a lily shorn
Speaker 1: off from its root, and then settles downstream. Little arm
Speaker 1: far flown tracks, still intact, framed now by scarp and topple,
Speaker 1: precipice edges abutting the ocean, sunflower planes, mushrooms suited for
Speaker 1: shortcuts and shrinking, stippled allium and ox eye ringing the trees.
Speaker 1: Our matching maps, new made and blank, unveil step by
Speaker 1: step what's ahead of our marks? A half glimpse before
Speaker 1: us an inkling a hint. This episode concludes our first season,
Speaker 1: which is an online love letter to you. Thank you
Speaker 1: for listening to us. Thank you to Christian Singer and
Speaker 1: Tracy Wilson for plumbing the depths of gaming. You can
Speaker 1: find more of Tracy's poetry at geek Tastic pentameter dot com.
Speaker 1: And thanks to t Harris of High Rest Studios for
Speaker 1: taking us into the realms of gods and goddesses. We
Speaker 1: also want to thank Josh Sharp of Exists for revealing
Speaker 1: to us the moves that we make in the game
Speaker 1: of Life. The Stuff of Life is written and co
Speaker 1: produced by me Julie Douglas. Original music and sound design
Speaker 1: is by co producer Noel Brown. Editorial oversight is provided
Speaker 1: by head of production Jerry Rowland. If you like what
Speaker 1: we do here at The Stuff of Life, visit us
Speaker 1: on Facebook and Twitter. In the meantime, email us your
Speaker 1: season two episodes suggestions at The Stuff of Life at
Speaker 1: how Staffords dot com, and we'll be seeing you again
Speaker 1: this summer. The sixt