Speaker 1: Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies.
Speaker 3: These episodes are based on. These are our.
Speaker 1: Stories done dun, Hello and welcome to That's Messed Up
Speaker 1: n SVU podcast.
Speaker 3: I'm Kara Klank and I'm Lisa.
Speaker 2: Tragger And every week we talk about an episode of
Speaker 2: Law and Order SVU, the true crime it's based on.
Speaker 2: And we have an incredible guest that is from the episode.
Speaker 2: And you know, we bring it to you every time.
Speaker 3: She bring it to you every ball. Why are you
Speaker 3: acting gagged? Is that it?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's something like, why you gagged? You bring it
Speaker 3: to you every ball? Yeah? Have I bought drag Queen
Speaker 3: merch this week? Yes? I have? Oh my god.
Speaker 1: Lisa sent our group text chain of which most of
Speaker 1: us watch Drag Race, but one person doesn't. The Simone's
Speaker 1: Beast outfit that she wore last week. You bought the
Speaker 1: T shirt of it. It's like, looks like you're wearing it,
Speaker 1: like those bikini shirts where it looks like you're wearing
Speaker 1: with aikini, but it looks like you're wearing Simone's furry outfit,
Speaker 1: and she was very confused.
Speaker 3: Yeah, She's like, are you a furry now? I'm like,
Speaker 3: you don't even fucking get it, you dumb bitch.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 2: She is a great friend. But I don't know why
Speaker 2: she won't watch drag Race. She loves Top Chef, she
Speaker 2: likes Project Runway, she likes The Housewife Like, I don't
Speaker 2: understand why she won't make the jump into the greatest
Speaker 2: show of all time.
Speaker 1: You know what, Ill, it's my best friend too. I'm like,
Speaker 1: why don't you watch it? You're an art teacher like
Speaker 1: you would absolutely love. You're a lesbian art teacher, like
Speaker 1: the show is for you.
Speaker 2: Like I actually just got an art teacher involved in
Speaker 2: elementary school art teacher two weeks, She's already watched four
Speaker 2: seasons in two weeks.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, see this is what I need to get my
Speaker 1: best friend from home on board. But Liza, what else
Speaker 1: is going on? I got the vaccine. Guys, if you
Speaker 1: can get the vaccine, oviously.
Speaker 3: Fucking get it. Please, let's all get back to normal
Speaker 3: as soon as we can. Now.
Speaker 2: I have a theory this summer STDs are gonna skyrocket.
Speaker 2: I think people are gonna be vaccinated horny and just
Speaker 2: fucking in the streets, and I think there's gonna be
Speaker 2: like a herpies outbreak.
Speaker 3: That's just I hope not. But that's just a theory.
Speaker 1: That once you're vaccinated, please keep in mind that STIs
Speaker 1: are still happening and be safe.
Speaker 2: So my friend told me that she read an article
Speaker 2: that Putin did get vaccinated. So I went to my
Speaker 2: dad and I went, Dad, your favorite person got vaccinated?
Speaker 2: And he said, who Leonardo DiCaprio. What he loves Leo?
Speaker 3: He loves Leo Leo? Yeah, like your dad. I bet
Speaker 3: your dad loved The Revenant. He was like, that's a man,
Speaker 3: get inside of a bear.
Speaker 2: He's loved him since the beginning when he when he
Speaker 2: lost the Oscar to Tommy Lee Jones back in the
Speaker 2: day for What's Eating Gilbert Great. My dad like anytime
Speaker 2: Leo loses an award, he kind of would scream at
Speaker 2: us and go upstair like he would be over the awards,
Speaker 2: like he wouldn't care anymore, Like he's just been a
Speaker 2: Leo statist.
Speaker 3: So funny. Yeah, they just love him, and I love him.
Speaker 3: I mean I love him too. He was a fun me.
Speaker 1: He's great, but like that's really funny for that to
Speaker 1: like alter your mood.
Speaker 3: How Leonardo DiCaprio's doing.
Speaker 1: So wait, so when you told him about Putin getting
Speaker 1: the vaccine, did it sway anything?
Speaker 3: Did you see anything shift behind his eyes? No, it's
Speaker 3: really frustrating.
Speaker 2: And you said your friend that's Russian is confused as well,
Speaker 2: and it's like, yeah, I don't know what they're doing.
Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't know what's happening.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I was telling Lisa that my friend uh Ina,
Speaker 1: who listens to the podcast, texted me or no, sorry
Speaker 1: facetimed me and was like, I'm just I'm having a
Speaker 1: hard time placing what's going on with with Lisa's parents,
Speaker 1: like they still like they love Russia, Like, what's going on?
Speaker 3: Oh, speaking of Russia.
Speaker 2: So Vulture put out a list of thirty two greatest
Speaker 2: character actors that are working today. Our friend to Parner,
Speaker 2: non Sherla is on it, which is incredible.
Speaker 3: Barnapkin on Twitter follow her.
Speaker 2: I'm so jealous of her. She's a voice in BoJack
Speaker 2: Horseman and yeah, she's great. It is weird when you
Speaker 2: have goals and then those things end and you know
Speaker 2: you'll never have them again, you.
Speaker 1: Know, like, I don't ever say that they're over. Everything's
Speaker 1: being rebooted. BoJack will be back in ten years. You'll
Speaker 1: be a voice of a penguin or some shit.
Speaker 3: It's right, that's the nicest thing you've ever said.
Speaker 2: No, But also on a sadder note, like I always
Speaker 2: was like I will meet Joan Rivers and then I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 3: I felt that way about Robin Williams. I was like,
Speaker 3: I will meet him one day, and then I never did. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But outside of a Parna, the list is littered with
Speaker 2: SVU people. Dennis O'Hare, who's been in two episodes, and
Speaker 2: then Rita Calhoun was on the list, Who's Elizabeth Marvel?
Speaker 2: And then a bunch of people that I've like, Greta Lee,
Speaker 2: her first role was SVU. There was a bunch of
Speaker 2: people where their first roles were SVU.
Speaker 3: And who's the guy the Tablowski I don't know, just
Speaker 3: excited even Tobolewski.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the reason I thought of it is because
Speaker 2: one of the guys from the Russians was on it.
Speaker 2: I mean the Americans, I'm okay, same thing, yeah, But
Speaker 2: Judy Greer and then Judy M. Baker who is the
Speaker 2: mom in Freaks and Geeks. She was in an SVU
Speaker 2: episode and she's amazing in it. She like, won't let
Speaker 2: her son. She's like, well, we'll test him at trial.
Speaker 2: We'll test it at trial. Who would ever convict him?
Speaker 2: And then he goes to jail for life? Do you
Speaker 2: remember I don't know who this person is?
Speaker 3: Yes, you do.
Speaker 2: She was in Girls. She was Lena Dunham's mom and Girls.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, she's wonderful.
Speaker 3: She's so good. So yeah, it was just cool to see,
Speaker 3: like SVU and like everybody's origin story. Lance Reddick, who
Speaker 3: you were in corporate with. Yes, I mean we didn't meet.
Speaker 1: He wasn't on my shoet day, but I did see
Speaker 1: him at the I did see him at the season
Speaker 1: whatever three rap party with his wife and was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, bosh.
Speaker 3: You guys know I'm a bosch head and he's wait Li's.
Speaker 1: I also wanted to give you a quick update on
Speaker 1: the Obama chocolates. They are back in my possession. Great,
Speaker 1: and you guys can go to our Instagram. We've already
Speaker 1: posted about it and the Obama chocolates because you mentioned
Speaker 1: that we I love them. At a stoner friend's house
Speaker 1: that you were worried about. I did put a post
Speaker 1: it on it that says do not eat in sharpie
Speaker 1: capital letters, as if that would stop like an extremely
Speaker 1: high person for eating chocolate.
Speaker 3: But those are our friends who do no sweets.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, but that's because one of them has a
Speaker 1: very hard addiction to sweets.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And then I sent them Girl Scout cookies. So
Speaker 3: I'm a person and become full sadist. You know, at a.
Speaker 2: Certain point, the kids have too many toys, So yeah,
Speaker 2: I sent them cookies, and you got to support the girls.
Speaker 3: That's true. I bought six boxes. They were gone in
Speaker 3: a week. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then I will be in La by the next episode.
Speaker 3: Guys like, Yeah, I'm really excited, exciting.
Speaker 2: You'll see actual photos of Karen I together as it's happening,
Speaker 2: which I'm excited about.
Speaker 1: We're gonna be coming to you live from Rosie's second
Speaker 1: birthday party, which is like four people.
Speaker 3: I can't wait. I'm really excited to be in the sun.
Speaker 2: And before we get into this classic episode, I do
Speaker 2: want to say I've been on pins and needles.
Speaker 3: This week.
Speaker 2: I was one of the finalists to get a part
Speaker 2: in a pilot on a huge network, and so obviously
Speaker 2: I was wid Yeah.
Speaker 3: No, it's very exciting.
Speaker 2: And you know, my friend always says I take Instagram
Speaker 2: as gospel, and I read so many inspirational quotes.
Speaker 3: Nothing fazes me, you know.
Speaker 2: I'm just like, this wasn't meant for me, and something
Speaker 2: better will come, you know.
Speaker 3: I'm very good about that. This door is closing, baby bed,
Speaker 3: a window is creaking open as we speak. Yeah, so
Speaker 3: I'm pretty chill.
Speaker 2: But they do tell you how much money you're gonna
Speaker 2: make before you know.
Speaker 3: You don't get the part. It's true.
Speaker 2: They my mom called them say this. She's like, what
Speaker 2: the fuck is wrong with these people? I'm like, it
Speaker 2: is a wild world. But I was walking with my
Speaker 2: sister and I was like, I already picked out my
Speaker 2: lou Vaton bag that I'm going to get as a celebration,
Speaker 2: And she goes, how about your laptop.
Speaker 3: She's like, isn't it eight years old? And you had
Speaker 3: to delete? Uh? What's the iMovie?
Speaker 2: My printer won't connect to it because it's so old
Speaker 2: it has no memory. Didn't even cross my mind to
Speaker 2: buy a laptop. She goes, your cell phone is your
Speaker 2: nephew's hand me down. You have your nephew's old phone.
Speaker 2: She's like, you don't want to buy a phone or
Speaker 2: a laptop. You're already looking at Louis Vaton bags. I'm like,
Speaker 2: that's why you're my older sister.
Speaker 3: Thank you for you. Yeah, but now I have no
Speaker 3: extra money, so never mind, never mind, buy our merch people. Okay,
Speaker 3: and order a cameo from Lisa.
Speaker 1: Okay, guys, let's get into today's episode, Conscience.
Speaker 2: All right, this is episode six, season six, uh oh,
Speaker 2: one away from the Devil's Number. This is called consciousness.
Speaker 2: I'm called conscience. Okay, that's I knew I was gonna
Speaker 2: say it wrong. I kept spelling it wrong the whole time.
Speaker 2: It's every time I search for it to watch it.
Speaker 2: I it's a hard word. So conscious conscious conscious Okay,
Speaker 2: we all know that's all.
Speaker 3: It's not conscious, it's conscious. Okay, Okay, yeah, that's what
Speaker 3: I thought, con science, Lisa. If that helps.
Speaker 2: Yes, it was a tough one for me, but one
Speaker 2: of my classic favorite episodes.
Speaker 3: Got to be honest here. So we start. We're at
Speaker 3: a birthday party.
Speaker 2: It's like a Discovery Zone Chuck E Cheese type place,
Speaker 2: and instantly I'm jealous of these children.
Speaker 3: How much do you miss it? I mean we had
Speaker 3: a Discovery Zone. I never had a Chuck E Cheese.
Speaker 1: I mean I saw Chuck E Cheese on TV, but
Speaker 1: I Discovery Zone was where we did our parties.
Speaker 2: Yes, when you like licked all of it, like not licked.
Speaker 2: But it's like we got to play in these communal areas,
Speaker 2: touch everything, and then eat pizza without washing her hands.
Speaker 3: It's like a distant memory. I gotta tell you, I
Speaker 3: think that these might be a these might be lost
Speaker 3: to a post COVID world.
Speaker 1: I don't know that we're gonna be able to have
Speaker 1: these kind of places anymore.
Speaker 2: Yes, I have six thousand points left on my dam
Speaker 2: and Buster's card, so we better get these back because
Speaker 2: I have.
Speaker 3: I'm ready to go.
Speaker 2: Wednesday is half priced game Night, and I miss it
Speaker 2: so fucking much. So the mom is rubbing one kid's
Speaker 2: face and yelling at theo this other kid. The kid's like,
Speaker 2: it's not your part, but listen, motherhood's hard. Motherhood at
Speaker 2: a child's birthday party that's another level. And should that
Speaker 2: be on a T shirt?
Speaker 3: Maybe? So it's a lot. And then the kid is like.
Speaker 2: Ah, I want more cake and the mom's like shut up,
Speaker 2: and then Theodore is running and she's like where are you.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's like fucking chaos, and then all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, Bye bye, Henry.
Speaker 3: Henry is fucking gone. So Henry is the kid.
Speaker 2: He disappears from Discovery Zone and we're at work really
Speaker 2: fucking quick right away, and we get a special treat
Speaker 2: Kragan in the streets. So it's Stabler, Benson, Kragan. They're
Speaker 2: at work right away. Mariska's hair is bronzy blonde, That's.
Speaker 3: What I'm going for. And Stabler's in a denim jacket.
Speaker 3: Very sexual. I liked it.
Speaker 2: Casual Friday, Stabler and iced Tea is on the scene.
Speaker 2: It's all hands on deck. Henry is They're gonna fucking
Speaker 2: find him. So the kid was only out of camera
Speaker 2: range for five seconds and he's gone. So Marishka concludes
Speaker 2: this is obviously a pro because he knew where the
Speaker 2: camera was. He's not detectable, and he's snuck out quick.
Speaker 2: So we're looking for an experienced kid grabber.
Speaker 3: So on the streets we have mister Batch, we have
Speaker 3: mister Wait, Vagilante is not what you were gonna say.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we have mister vigilante justice on her hands. Malcolm Wolynski,
Speaker 2: He's cost them other investigations.
Speaker 3: He is so annoying.
Speaker 2: And Craigan's like, you need to stop listening to the
Speaker 2: police scanner and get a life, and Marishka's like get lost.
Speaker 3: So we hate Marty Okay, I mean Malcolm.
Speaker 2: So we hate Malcolm. He looks like a softball coach.
Speaker 2: And then there's a woman who says she saw a
Speaker 2: kid with the man and they went down to the trains.
Speaker 2: So then they go to talk to the MTA worker
Speaker 2: who remembers a kid flipping out and a dad with
Speaker 2: red hair. Now this is the most non realistic thing
Speaker 2: that SVU has ever portrayed. A helpful MTA worker I
Speaker 2: will live to see the day. I mean, they are
Speaker 2: the most aloof workers behind the glass. I've never been
Speaker 2: helped by one MTA worker. My card can be bad.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't know when they're like get away
Speaker 2: from me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you could truly be being chased by a murderer
Speaker 1: and they'd be like please please move upstairs, Like they
Speaker 1: just don't.
Speaker 2: And if you're an MTA worker, that's like, I do
Speaker 2: a good job. Email us because I don't think you exist.
Speaker 2: I'm not worried. They bust down the door of this
Speaker 2: man they like track from the MTA card to a
Speaker 2: credit card, and and Benson is talking to the kid
Speaker 2: that they find in this apartment. They're like, everything's gonna
Speaker 2: be okay, Henry. He goes, who's Henry? This isn't the
Speaker 2: right kid. So they look similar with the photo they
Speaker 2: do look similar, but it's a stepdad. Henry just hates
Speaker 2: his stepdad. It's a tale as old as time. I'm
Speaker 2: a stepdad, classic white guy. He's just like, I wi
Speaker 2: are badge numbers. I'm gonna sue all of you. And
Speaker 2: it's like, okay, so you know, I'm thrilled to have
Speaker 2: mistakes and tribulations. So early in this episode, we come
Speaker 2: back from the credits and the kid has now been
Speaker 2: missing for three hours. They go to the parents' house
Speaker 2: and it's fucking Kyle McLaughlin.
Speaker 3: Are you fucking kidding me? Aka Trey McDougall.
Speaker 1: I literally just like have to say that he was
Speaker 1: when I was like a teen preteen teen, he was
Speaker 1: like my number one, Like I have always thought he
Speaker 1: was the hottest man.
Speaker 3: I loved him in twin Peaks. I've just always had
Speaker 3: such a huge crush on him. I just love his
Speaker 3: like dark hair and like his whole look. I love
Speaker 3: him so.
Speaker 2: I I've only found out about him first through sex
Speaker 2: in the City, so I obviously had intense hatred for him,
Speaker 2: love but hatred. Trey McDougall, talk to your wife, you know,
Speaker 2: fuck her well. And then I saw Showgirls later in life,
Speaker 2: and that was a very sexual scene. And then I
Speaker 2: became in love with Kyle McLaughlin. His hair is probably
Speaker 2: one of the most beautiful in Hollywood. I would say
Speaker 2: the most luscious locks that we've seen on this show.
Speaker 3: Saw Pepper Beauty.
Speaker 2: Yep, he is amazing. Green sweater, light blue collared shirt underneath.
Speaker 2: And he hands over the police an updated photos so
Speaker 2: they don't confuse another kid for Henry again, and I've
Speaker 2: never seen this in a storyline. They need something for
Speaker 2: the Bloodhounds. The Bloodhounds get mentioned like eighty five times
Speaker 2: in this episode. They need the bloodhounds, so he gives them,
Speaker 2: you know, some clothes for the Bloodhounds. And now I'm
Speaker 2: just singing of that Bloodhound Gang song.
Speaker 3: Do you remember that? You and me baby? Nothing but mammals,
Speaker 3: So humiliated.
Speaker 2: They want I talk to the mother to get some
Speaker 2: more details, but he gave her a sedative, and the cops,
Speaker 2: you know, they get suspicious. And then he's like, I'm
Speaker 2: a psychiatrist. I just wanted her to sleep, Like I'm
Speaker 2: just being helpful. A uniformed cop comes in and says,
Speaker 2: there's a neighbor boy who saw something. The kid says
Speaker 2: he was cleaning his skateboard in the morning.
Speaker 3: What nerd is this? There's no way this kid skateboards.
Speaker 2: He's wearing a polo shirt, he has JTT like tween
Speaker 2: heart Throb circa nineteen ninety seven hair. But he says
Speaker 2: that he saw while Henry was playing in the yard
Speaker 2: that morning. He saw man parked in sunglasses, in a
Speaker 2: baseball cap and a black Tyota.
Speaker 3: He was a white guy. Didn't see the license plate.
Speaker 3: He wished.
Speaker 2: He told his mom in the morning. He's so so sorry.
Speaker 2: The kid's a nerd. Thanks for your information. We're off
Speaker 2: to do some work. And then we're back at the
Speaker 2: scene and it's Marishka being like, where are these bloodhounds?
Speaker 2: And the dogs are actually busy in Coney Island with
Speaker 2: another case. They'll be in an hour. So like.
Speaker 3: The dogs are booked, baby booked him blessed.
Speaker 2: They tried to see what other pedophiles or if there's
Speaker 2: any people in the system that have a black Tayota,
Speaker 2: and there is. Billy Turner is a pedophile who got
Speaker 2: out of jail two months ago, and he has an
Speaker 2: apartment on Avenue B And they get to the apartment
Speaker 2: and who's there, fucking Willnski. Wllnsky is beating the shit
Speaker 2: out of the pedophile and the pedophiles.
Speaker 3: Like, I'm cured. I'm cured. It wasn't me.
Speaker 2: And he found this out through the police scanner. Now
Speaker 2: can you just buy a police scanner?
Speaker 1: I mean it's like how we talked about how can
Speaker 1: you just buy full police uniforms, which, by the way,
Speaker 1: we hadn't We talked about this in another episode about
Speaker 1: how like you could just buy police uniforms at these
Speaker 1: like army Navy stores and how that's crazy. And a
Speaker 1: listener wrote into us and said that you actually get
Speaker 1: paid more as an actor on SVU if you have
Speaker 1: your own cop outfit, so it's encouraged to go buy
Speaker 1: fake cop outfits. So I don't know how you get
Speaker 1: a scanner, though I would assume the same kind of place, Hannah,
Speaker 1: do you It seems like you're looking this up.
Speaker 5: Spy dot com has eight available police scanners to buy.
Speaker 5: They order them by the best police Scanners and number
Speaker 5: eight there's a police scanning app on your smartphone you
Speaker 5: can now get. But they have a million police scanners
Speaker 5: for sail here.
Speaker 6: Wow.
Speaker 3: So I think it's pretty easy to get.
Speaker 1: Think it's like it's radio waves you just got to get,
Speaker 1: you know, like it's not illegal.
Speaker 5: They have handheld, they have car they're on Amazon m We're.
Speaker 3: Like kids in school.
Speaker 1: When I was in high school, like one or two
Speaker 1: guys would have a police scanner and they'd be like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know when they're coming to bust up the party
Speaker 1: because I have.
Speaker 3: A police scanner. And you're like, but I don't. I
Speaker 3: don't know if that like I don't know, maybe they
Speaker 3: were lying.
Speaker 2: So mister vigilante Justice is keeping tabs and he's there
Speaker 2: and Stabler and Willnski have a back and forth and
Speaker 2: he's like, I'll sue you for police brutality, and Elliot's like,
Speaker 2: you could have fucked up a crime scene. If there's
Speaker 2: any fingerprints of the kid, if there's any evidence like,
Speaker 2: what are you doing?
Speaker 3: Who is this guy?
Speaker 2: The ball's on this fucking lunatic go back to softball practice.
Speaker 2: Billy is adamant. He has never heard of this kid.
Speaker 2: He was not there, he was at the laundry mat.
Speaker 2: And Maloney is trying to make him look at a
Speaker 2: picture of Henry. But Billy Shrink said, don't you look
Speaker 2: at any kid. Don't look at any pictures. So he's
Speaker 2: avoiding looking at the kid, and it must be hard
Speaker 2: to avoid photos of children. But he's committed to his recovery.
Speaker 2: So the canines have found a cent. The German shepherd
Speaker 2: is hard at work. It's not a bloodhound, it's shepherd. No,
Speaker 2: it's a German shepherd who's super cute. And they enter
Speaker 2: a boarded up chain like door that leads to a
Speaker 2: long alley. I've never seen an alley in New York
Speaker 2: garbage pile and it's really sad. Henry is dead under
Speaker 2: a bunch of garbage bags at the Emmey's office. The
Speaker 2: mom is crying. She can't handle this at all. So
Speaker 2: Kyle McLaughlin needs to be fucking strong, and he's calm
Speaker 2: as how. Melinda shows him the body and he goes
Speaker 2: that's my son. And he's just such a good actor,
Speaker 2: Like you see the emotions bubbling up underneath him, but
Speaker 2: he is keeping it together and he is sad that
Speaker 2: his son is there, but he needs to be strong.
Speaker 3: It's just like it's an amazing scene. He's such a
Speaker 3: good actor.
Speaker 1: And the woman is very good to the mom. She's
Speaker 1: been in a bunch of svus. I was like, where
Speaker 1: do I know her from? And I looked her up
Speaker 1: for IMDb and I just knew her from other svus.
Speaker 1: So she's been in a few. And they're both wearing
Speaker 1: green sweaters again. Shout out to our amazing costume department.
Speaker 1: Are we ever going to meet them? They need to
Speaker 1: talk to us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I would love if it was just like
Speaker 2: one person this whole time, for twenty two years.
Speaker 3: Like a Pat Field.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Kyle McLaughlan, Doctor Morton, he's asking all the questions
Speaker 2: and we're getting all the information. He was not molested,
Speaker 2: but he was suffocated by small pebbles found in his trachea,
Speaker 2: and there was brown cat hair, but the Mortons.
Speaker 3: Don't have a cat.
Speaker 2: So doctor Morton says, you call me the second you
Speaker 2: find the bastard who murdered my son. And of course
Speaker 2: Elliott is very taken by this case because he's a father.
Speaker 2: So they are talking about how composed he is, and
Speaker 2: Elliott says he's a ticking time bomb. They found Billy's
Speaker 2: car and it's stripped and torched, so that's fucking telling.
Speaker 2: Jake the skateboard dork is now doing the lineup and
Speaker 2: he says it's either number three or two. He just
Speaker 2: doesn't know. He can't super investigate the guy. Casey Novak's there.
Speaker 2: She looks a little disappointed, and so there's a lot
Speaker 2: going on at the precinct right now. We're dealing with Jake,
Speaker 2: with Wallinski, with the Emmy's office.
Speaker 3: There's a lot happening.
Speaker 2: And now we're back in interrogation with Billy and they're screaming,
Speaker 2: like we.
Speaker 3: Identify there's cat here in your apartment. He's like, I
Speaker 3: don't have a cat.
Speaker 2: But then he says he will admit something, but he's
Speaker 2: scared because he's violated parole and he doesn't want to
Speaker 2: go back to jail. He gets raped in jail every
Speaker 2: single day, and they're like, you won't go to jail,
Speaker 2: tell us what you did. So he has an alibi,
Speaker 2: and basically he was babysitting his neighbor's kid. He said
Speaker 2: that the neighbor forced him to babysit, she had no
Speaker 2: other options and he's not allowed to be a with children.
Speaker 2: We find out he actually begged to babysit the kid,
Speaker 2: but the kid was not touched, nothing bad happened. So
Speaker 2: he did violate parole, which is fucked up, but he
Speaker 2: didn't do anything wrong. So I don't really know how
Speaker 2: to feel about this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's conflict. That that's a conflict. I feel like
Speaker 1: I don't know how to feel either.
Speaker 2: But like you know, if he kept babysitting, would he
Speaker 2: eventually not be able to control his urges?
Speaker 3: Right? I just don't know. But he is alibied.
Speaker 2: It is not him, And the timing of ending babysitting
Speaker 2: and getting to Riverdale and the cat hairs don't match.
Speaker 3: It's just it's not fucking Billy, okay.
Speaker 2: In the Nightstalker Gilbert language, it's it's a freak, but
Speaker 2: not my freak. That's from Detective Gilbert. So it just
Speaker 2: it doesn't make sense. It is a red herring. It's
Speaker 2: what s View does best. They're not going to show
Speaker 2: us Billy up top. Okay, it's just not gonna happen.
Speaker 2: So they drive Billy back to his house and we
Speaker 2: Linski is there again, and there's a bunch of people
Speaker 2: and they're all parading around, not parading, what is it protesting?
Speaker 6: They?
Speaker 2: Yeah, the pedophile off the streets.
Speaker 3: Hardly a parade.
Speaker 2: And then I didn't know this, but Benson says, you
Speaker 2: need a permit to have what is it a megaphone?
Speaker 3: A megaphone? Yeah, so yes, they.
Speaker 2: Arrest him for inciting a riot and not having a
Speaker 2: permit for this megaphone. And the crime lab we're with
Speaker 2: Hatty Hatty Mike Doyle.
Speaker 3: Oh yes, he is so hot.
Speaker 2: He is hot, And fuck you Stucky for taking away
Speaker 2: our science arm not arm candy, heart candy, what is
Speaker 2: it eye candy, eye candy, I candy.
Speaker 3: I need to socialize again, Like.
Speaker 2: Being alone in an apartment has completely destroyed me because
Speaker 2: the only people I hang out with is my parents
Speaker 2: and we're speaking Russian and I am just like I'm
Speaker 2: getting grossy. I need I need help. I need to
Speaker 2: find a cure. Oh, you gotta FaceTime me more, Kara.
Speaker 2: I think that is what we're learning here. I need
Speaker 2: more interactions.
Speaker 3: Keep your English up.
Speaker 2: The pebbles are quartz, Hello la, which is and there
Speaker 2: is prince on the pebbles, and the thing is they're
Speaker 2: perfect and they're tiny.
Speaker 3: These are child prince.
Speaker 2: This is not an adult and it's not Henry's and
Speaker 2: Benson asks do you have the pebbles? And of course
Speaker 2: he does, and the pebbles look exactly like the one
Speaker 2: from jac O'Hara's yard. That is great detective memory to
Speaker 2: match those pebbles. I want to play match game with her.
Speaker 2: I mean, she her memory like she would be crushing it.
Speaker 2: I just can't believe she clocked the pebbles in the
Speaker 2: yard and can match them. So back in investigation, we
Speaker 2: have the blonde mom and she's played by actress Joanna
Speaker 2: Day or Johanna.
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know there's an h in there.
Speaker 3: I think it's Joanna. It is. They just threw an
Speaker 3: h in there for what. Yeah, there's just a lot
Speaker 3: of Joannas that have an H in there. Yeah. Crazy.
Speaker 2: And she's been on Law and Order, Criminal Intent and
Speaker 2: Trial by Jerry. Can you fucking believe it? She's been
Speaker 2: on four Law and Order franchises. So the boys like
Speaker 2: an innocent act and he goes, sorry, I didn't you know,
Speaker 2: I didn't do the lineup. Well, I only saw the
Speaker 2: picture for a second and they go what what fucking picture?
Speaker 2: And he says that a detective showed him a picture
Speaker 2: and they go what detective, and the mom classic classic
Speaker 2: asshole line is like, don't you people talk to each
Speaker 2: other and they bring in Willnsky and Willinsky is the
Speaker 2: quote unquote detective that showed Billy's photo to this kid
Speaker 2: to make sure to get this ID. So I mean, oh, Wellnsky,
Speaker 2: how much more fucking up can you do for us?
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm the boss on Flintstone, like flints Down, Okay,
Speaker 2: Like I.
Speaker 1: Think there's one there's something to be said for, like
Speaker 1: police accountability and trying to like bring awareness to crimes
Speaker 1: that you think that the cops are not paying attention to.
Speaker 1: But this is like full interference in police investigation.
Speaker 2: Like yeah, so you know, Elliot obviously throws them into
Speaker 2: a filing cabinet. We need, we need one shove, one
Speaker 2: shove an episode and he basically tells you're going to jail.
Speaker 2: I mean, you coached a kid to give a false
Speaker 2: testimony and lie like you're a fuckhead. The boy starts
Speaker 2: getting a little bit of tears in his eyes and
Speaker 2: open mouth of face shock, and they do the soda
Speaker 2: can trick. He's been drinking soda and Benson picks it
Speaker 2: up with a pencil and goes, we're going to match
Speaker 2: these prints with the prince on the pebbles.
Speaker 3: We know you fucking did.
Speaker 2: It, and go fuck yourself, kid, and he knows he
Speaker 2: got got and you see his little brain working. He's
Speaker 2: a really talented young little man. Like you can see
Speaker 2: there's something going on.
Speaker 3: He stutters a little.
Speaker 2: He says he was scared, and the story he's selling
Speaker 2: is that he fell on a neighbor's cat, killed the cat,
Speaker 2: and Henry said he was going to tell on him,
Speaker 2: and he didn't want to go back to that camp,
Speaker 2: and the mom would send him back to this camp
Speaker 2: if he killed the cat, so he had to stop Henry.
Speaker 2: He just wanted him to stop and not talk. He
Speaker 2: didn't want to kill him. So that's the story we get.
Speaker 2: The mom is crying, oh no, it's my fault. I
Speaker 2: sent him to a tough love camp. And then Jake
Speaker 2: pulls up his sleeve and he has cigarette burns all
Speaker 2: over his body. He says at this camp he got burned, cut,
Speaker 2: they put things inside of him, and that he'd rather
Speaker 2: be dead than go back to the camp. And yeah,
Speaker 2: so that sucks. He got abused at this camp. So
Speaker 2: what are we gonna do here? Benson says, we still
Speaker 2: have to place him under arrest, and the mom says,
Speaker 2: we're getting a lawyer, and it's like, too late, baby,
Speaker 2: he just confessed. Okay, he should have gone a lawyer
Speaker 2: an hour ago. Doctor Morton, they tell him the news.
Speaker 2: He's so upset, he can't believe it. He loved Jake,
Speaker 2: they're friends. What the fuck is going on? He's almost
Speaker 2: crying again, stopping himself. He's pretty amazing. And they do
Speaker 2: tell doctor Morton that he was abused at this camp
Speaker 2: and psychology Daddy lets out like a guttural noise and says,
Speaker 2: I need to see Jake please. He feels bad because
Speaker 2: he recommended this camp to the mom, so he is
Speaker 2: now kind of feeling responsible for the abuse that Jake
Speaker 2: endured at this camp that led him to me, we
Speaker 2: have this damage and be fucked up so much that
Speaker 2: he killed his son, Henry. We're at a rayment, Part
Speaker 2: twenty two. We get Cleo Conrad as the defense attorney
Speaker 2: played by Jill Marie Lawrence seventeen.
Speaker 3: Episodes of U SV. She's great, she is very great.
Speaker 2: Baylis said it two hundred thousand dollars. And we have
Speaker 2: a regular judge as well. We have Judge Lois Preston
Speaker 2: twenty two episodes. She's the redheaded cutie.
Speaker 3: With the curly hair.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she does not take no shit. What judge does
Speaker 3: take shit? I don't know, but not that one.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the daddy wants to talk to Jake and
Speaker 2: Daddy no Kyle, Kyle McLaughlin, doctor Morton, psychiatrist, Green sweater prep.
Speaker 2: Daddy wants to talk to Jake and Jake is like,
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry.
Speaker 3: Henry was my friend. And doctor is like, I know, Jake,
Speaker 3: but why did you do it? And he says I
Speaker 3: don't know.
Speaker 2: Some things wrong with me, and the doctor finally cries
Speaker 2: a little bit.
Speaker 3: So that's cool and.
Speaker 2: This is a bummer. He asks what was Henry's words?
Speaker 2: Like what did he say before you killed him? And
Speaker 2: Jake reveals that Henry wanted his mommy and he was
Speaker 2: saying he wanted his mommy. And we've talked about this
Speaker 2: before in other episodes, it seems like a very common
Speaker 2: thing for people to scream out before they are murdered
Speaker 2: they want their mothers. So that's like a pretty sombering
Speaker 2: detail in this kind of fun case. Now, Okay, Casey
Speaker 2: reveals that they're trying him as an adult, and doctor
Speaker 2: Morton does not want this. He goes, I've already lost
Speaker 2: one child. We cannot lose another child to jail. Elliott's like, listen,
Speaker 2: that camp is none of your concern, and doctor Morton goes, yes,
Speaker 2: but he was abused and he's had a tough life,
Speaker 2: and Casey says all of that evidence will be introduced,
Speaker 2: and doctor Morton is just not here for it.
Speaker 3: So we get Bead Wong, Baby, what is your case?
Speaker 3: What do you want? What are you telling us? What
Speaker 3: will you teach us this week?
Speaker 2: Bed Wong and him in case You're talking on the
Speaker 2: streets of New York and doctor Wong is like, but
Speaker 2: he was traumatized, and Casey is like, yeah, but lots
Speaker 2: of traumatized people don't abuse people.
Speaker 3: So they take a day trip. Okay, so they're in
Speaker 3: the woods.
Speaker 2: They decided to take a trip to this camp and
Speaker 2: the camp director says they should have never let Jake
Speaker 2: come to this place for kids, because this is a
Speaker 2: place for kids with behavior problems, not serious pathology issues,
Speaker 2: and Jake is fucked up and he should have never
Speaker 2: been here. Then we get a montage of funny looking kids.
Speaker 2: So one little redhead kid who looks like he should
Speaker 2: be in Little Giants, like he has Sandlot vibes. He goes,
Speaker 2: he's sick, man, he's crazy, and he says that Jake
Speaker 2: like hit him with Uh does this remind you of camp?
Speaker 3: Like hearing about oars and lakes and the cheat.
Speaker 1: But I mean it was an all girls camp. Nobody
Speaker 1: ever really physically attacked anyone else. But did you guys
Speaker 1: ever dances with the boy camps? Yeah we did, But
Speaker 1: like even at the boy camp, there's not a lot
Speaker 1: of physical attacking. It's like a very positive environment.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I just know you really love summer camp. I do.
Speaker 3: So this is not giving me the same vibe, but
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 1: I get I get where you're coming from.
Speaker 2: So Jake tried to drown this kid after hitting him
Speaker 2: with a paddle the second day of camp, and he
Speaker 2: held his head underwater and said, if you tell anyone,
Speaker 2: I'll fucking kill you.
Speaker 3: Another kid says he's a psycho.
Speaker 2: He threatened to kill me and then put a dead
Speaker 2: gopher in his bed. And then the third kid is,
Speaker 2: I mean, I hope he's famous on TikTok.
Speaker 3: He's incredible.
Speaker 6: I loved him.
Speaker 3: I love this kid doing push up pull ups.
Speaker 2: He's doing pull ups. I don't think he's really doing
Speaker 2: There was definitely a box there. There's definitely a box.
Speaker 2: There's no way this kid can get away with this
Speaker 2: many pull ups. But he's really funny and he's just like,
Speaker 2: I gotta protect myself.
Speaker 3: I ain't no psycho.
Speaker 2: And we find out that Jake's been burning himself with
Speaker 2: cigarettes and like laughing, and he's like a William Lewis
Speaker 2: in the making or something, because he's been putting matches
Speaker 2: in between his fingers and singing his skin and laughing.
Speaker 2: So we get a lot of information and basically he's
Speaker 2: the abuser, he's the psychopath.
Speaker 3: And we don't trust a word that came out of
Speaker 3: his mouth. So Casey goes to talk.
Speaker 2: To Judith Light Bureau chief Elizabeth Donnelly and Bedie Wong
Speaker 2: Is explaining the findings from the camp, and the camp
Speaker 2: warned the mom and told the mom and she didn't listen,
Speaker 2: and they go, he's a sociopath, and Elizabeth says, no,
Speaker 2: he's only thirteen. And I guess you can't be a
Speaker 2: sociopath until you're eighteen or diagnosed. And someone actually wrote
Speaker 2: that to us as well, some of our listeners. So
Speaker 2: you can't really be diagnosed sociopath as a kid. But
Speaker 2: Bidie Wong says, yeah, but he has all the signs.
Speaker 2: He's glib, he lies, he has no remorse, no empathy, narcissistic,
Speaker 2: He's tricked everyone. He's tricked the cops, the camps, his mother.
Speaker 2: Like we're professionals, he's tricked us. Like this kid is
Speaker 2: fucking good. Get him on OSCAR and it's a personality disorder.
Speaker 2: So a lot of shrinks believe there is no cure.
Speaker 2: You can't really grow a conscience. Okay, just wanted to
Speaker 2: let everyone know I've learned, I've learned how to say it.
Speaker 2: So doctor Morton was in earlier and begged Donnaie to
Speaker 2: get it moved to family court, so she did, which
Speaker 2: is insane to me. You didn't talk to your lawyer
Speaker 2: as a psychologist to the cot. You didn't talk to
Speaker 2: anyone like just a grieving father came babbling to you,
Speaker 2: and you moved a whole murder case to family court.
Speaker 3: That seems insane. I don't know.
Speaker 2: And one morning, not even like give me an afternoon
Speaker 2: to think about it. I'm just like shocked by her
Speaker 2: decision making.
Speaker 3: Here.
Speaker 2: So we're at family court where Elizabeth moved the case,
Speaker 2: and he's being moved to his mother's custody, which is
Speaker 2: in he murdered a kid.
Speaker 3: What the fuck is going on?
Speaker 1: And it's so law in order that all of this
Speaker 1: is just happening at the same time. Like normally, like
Speaker 1: court cases take forever, they would have been able to
Speaker 1: like appeal the family court decision, but it's like, uh
Speaker 1: oh no, back walks in justice.
Speaker 3: He's being sentenced to the custody.
Speaker 2: Of his mother, you know, like so and then Casey
Speaker 2: Novak to the judge says, you know, we've made a mistake,
Speaker 2: and the judge is super funny. She goes, Wow, that's
Speaker 2: really refreshing. I've never heard that in my court room.
Speaker 2: So I loved that, you know, I don't think lawyers
Speaker 2: say they're wrong. And this actress, she died a few
Speaker 2: years ago in twenty seventeen, but her name is Novella Nelson.
Speaker 2: She's been in three episodes of Sview as two different characters.
Speaker 2: But I looked her up on IMDb. She has seventy
Speaker 2: nine credits. She seems cool as hell with like a
Speaker 2: very eclectic character.
Speaker 3: It's just also a very cool name. Novella Nelson is
Speaker 3: a cool ass name. Yeah. I was really intrigued by her.
Speaker 2: And she's been in Sex and the City in oz
Speaker 2: and just like lots of movies. And I love SVU
Speaker 2: for showing us like all these incredible actors that maybe
Speaker 2: aren't a list famous people, but it's nice to see
Speaker 2: working actors and it's kind of inspirational that you can
Speaker 2: have a career in the arts.
Speaker 3: And I love that.
Speaker 2: So and she died on my birthday, which I don't
Speaker 2: know how to feel about that. At first I was like, ooh,
Speaker 2: a fellow virgo, and then I was like, oh, I
Speaker 2: read the wrong line. Yeah, Casey wants to dismissed in
Speaker 2: family court, but the judge says she can't dismiss it
Speaker 2: in family court because then it would go into double
Speaker 2: jeopardy because it was already in the regular court. So
Speaker 2: she dismisses it. He goes free and you can't try
Speaker 2: him again, and she's like, but we have new info.
Speaker 2: And doctor Warren is pissed because he is hearing all
Speaker 2: this and he's a trained psychiatrist, so we know, like
Speaker 2: he gets it right away now, and he goes, Jake,
Speaker 2: I believed you.
Speaker 3: I fought for you, You lying little bastard. He gives
Speaker 3: a full Tyra Banks. He's like, we were rooting for you,
Speaker 3: we were all rooting for you.
Speaker 1: But yeah, this is a creepy this scene I always
Speaker 1: remember from this episode.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he is screaming Maloney and a uniformed cop court
Speaker 2: officer everyone has to hold Kyle mcglachom back as they
Speaker 2: drag him out, and he is just like screaming and
Speaker 2: Jake as a smirk, evil smirk, this piece of shit.
Speaker 2: But Kyle can't even breathe. He's like, he's a sociopath.
Speaker 2: If he gets out at eighty eighteen, he will kill
Speaker 2: again and again. And so Elliott and doctor more and
Speaker 2: are walking in the hallway of the court and Jake
Speaker 2: comes out of the court and he's such a dick.
Speaker 2: It's like, you already killed this man's kid, leave him alone.
Speaker 2: And he goes I'm sorry for what happens, sir, I
Speaker 2: really am. And it's like fucking Dennis the Menace, like
Speaker 2: bullshit vibes, and Kyle McLaughlin shoves the man, grabs a
Speaker 2: court officer's gun and shoots Jake and kills this little kid.
Speaker 3: Do I feel bad? No, not at all. Sorry, I
Speaker 3: don't care.
Speaker 2: Quote me, bitch, And Elliott is like, yeah, I knew
Speaker 2: that guy was wound too tight.
Speaker 3: And so we go back.
Speaker 2: We remember the foreshadow in the beginning, and everything makes
Speaker 2: sense in this episode, and we're like, where is this
Speaker 2: gonna go now?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Donnelly is powerwalking her heels clickity clacking into the
Speaker 2: precinct and is like, Elliott, what the fuck? And Elliot's
Speaker 2: like what the fuck? And they're fine, and it's like,
Speaker 2: you're both wrong. Okay, sorry, Yes, Elizabeth, you shouldn't have
Speaker 2: moved this to family Court.
Speaker 3: You psychopathy is a murderer.
Speaker 2: Also, Elliott, how did you let him grab a gun
Speaker 2: and murder someone in front of your eyes? You are
Speaker 2: a trained detective of many, many years.
Speaker 3: So that's happened like a bunch of times, like he
Speaker 3: has been a lot of times with them.
Speaker 1: They got some butterfingers with these suspects. Sometimes they grab guns.
Speaker 3: Oh now I want a butterfinger.
Speaker 2: They're also very close in each other's faces. I hope
Speaker 2: this was like an altoid's day on set. Yeah, really,
Speaker 2: I hope they choose some gum after lunch.
Speaker 1: Maloney always looks like he's going to kiss someone. He's
Speaker 1: just always right up to someone. I wouldn't mind it,
Speaker 1: but anyway.
Speaker 3: No one would mind it.
Speaker 2: So Casey is in the mix too, because now she's
Speaker 2: in the middle of them, because now she has to
Speaker 2: try doctor Morton Kyle McLaughlin. So Elizabeth says, you're going
Speaker 2: to charge him with murder too, and Elliot's convincing Casey
Speaker 2: to move it down to manslaughter since he was crazed
Speaker 2: and out of control. And doctor Morton has a great
Speaker 2: defense attorney Chauncey Zerco.
Speaker 3: And he looks like he owns.
Speaker 2: Either a Russian or an Italian restaurant with an illegal
Speaker 2: business in the back. That's the vibe I get from him.
Speaker 2: Gray Hair Daddy, and he has seven episodes. And what
Speaker 2: name is Chauncey. It's like such a funny name to me.
Speaker 3: I don't know. Yeah, I love the name Chauncey. Okay.
Speaker 2: So Kyle says that he remembers none of it, he
Speaker 2: just snapped, and Casey doesn't believe it, and Chauncey recommends, like, fine,
Speaker 2: have your psychologists evaluate him.
Speaker 3: I don't give a fuck, Like he's.
Speaker 2: He's been through trauma and this is so of the
Speaker 2: Times nineteen ninety nine. There's like a tape recorder in
Speaker 2: the middle of the table as bead Wong is in
Speaker 2: talking to Kyle McLaughlin and Kyle's at Riker's in a
Speaker 2: jumpsuit army green, not orange like. I wonder if that
Speaker 2: was his demand because he's such a big star. He's like,
Speaker 2: I'm not wearing orange like.
Speaker 3: He's also been in shades of green throughout the whole episode.
Speaker 3: Maybe continuity story, damn oy, Hello Benson, you notice all
Speaker 3: the details.
Speaker 2: And Kyle is an amazing actor. I keep saying this
Speaker 2: throughout this whole thing. But he's fully crying and in pain,
Speaker 2: but also playing a guy who doesn't remember anything. But
Speaker 2: does he And is was he a psychologist at that
Speaker 2: moment or was he just agreeving dad?
Speaker 3: Does he know what's happening? Does he remember? Was it
Speaker 3: a plan?
Speaker 2: Was it just because of the pain, like it really is, like,
Speaker 2: what the fuck was going on?
Speaker 3: You really don't know?
Speaker 2: And B D Wong and Casey Novak are Now there's
Speaker 2: a lot of side by side outdoor walking and talking
Speaker 2: in this episode, and he says he's like, the answers
Speaker 2: are a little too perfect. I mean they're textbook. This
Speaker 2: guy knows what he's talking about. But also that kind
Speaker 2: of tragedy, it's a tough call. So what the fuck
Speaker 2: is Casey Novak going to do? And doctor Morton is
Speaker 2: on the stand and he said he would have never
Speaker 2: killed Jake in his right mind. He said, yes, I
Speaker 2: did it. I can't really deny that it happened, but
Speaker 2: I am sorry about it. And in the middle of
Speaker 2: core bd Wong then gives Casey a textbook and she
Speaker 2: is just like chilling reading in the middle of court,
Speaker 2: this like big textbook, which I love. And the judge
Speaker 2: is like, hey, bitch, you want to get back to work,
Speaker 2: and she's like, oh yeah, sure. So Casey says, like, so,
Speaker 2: do you remember screaming that he's a sociopath and he'll
Speaker 2: kill again? And he says no, and that you know,
Speaker 2: kids can't even be diagnosed to the sociopath till eighteen,
Speaker 2: and Casey goes, but you don't agree with that, and
Speaker 2: he maintains, He goes, I work by the standards of
Speaker 2: my profession. So they bring out this journal from fifteen
Speaker 2: years ago and make doctor Morton read a highlighted passage
Speaker 2: and he is quoted in there saying, if we fail
Speaker 2: to incarcerate these killer kids, they will kill again. And
Speaker 2: so the psychoverlords won't allow this, but they have to
Speaker 2: do what's right in protect society from these cold blooded killers.
Speaker 2: And so Casey says, you wrote this and you found
Speaker 2: a way to protect society, and you fucking killed this kid,
Speaker 2: didn't you. He goes, that was fifteen years ago, and
Speaker 2: I would not have done that. I, you know, an
Speaker 2: incarceration for life is what I believe in, like I
Speaker 2: would not like killing is not what I had in mind.
Speaker 2: And when I even wrote that, and he says, in
Speaker 2: that moment when he shot Jake, he was not a
Speaker 2: psychologist but a grieving father. And I know I keep
Speaker 2: saying psychologists and psychiatrists interchangeably. It's because I already forgot
Speaker 2: which one he was, But I think psychiatrist.
Speaker 3: He's a psychiatrist because he gave them meds.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean he obviously has a psychology background,
Speaker 1: so I think we'll forgive you so much.
Speaker 3: So now we're back at the courtroom steps.
Speaker 2: There is a lot of courtroom step action in this episode,
Speaker 2: like they filmed a lot outside and Casey and Elliott
Speaker 2: are having a chat, and as always, Elliott will defend
Speaker 2: any angry guy that kills because of his emotions.
Speaker 3: He's always like, but I'm a father. Casey doesn't believe it.
Speaker 3: She's like, he's screwing with us.
Speaker 2: And then right then and there, a process server serves
Speaker 2: Elliott Stabler.
Speaker 1: At least it did that make you upset because that
Speaker 1: was kind of like your role that you could have had.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was triggered. No, it definitely reminded me of
Speaker 2: my failed audition. I was jumping their Now, this woman
Speaker 2: killed her part. She was really good, and congrats. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm not a competitive person at all.
Speaker 3: I'm not sorry to bring it up.
Speaker 1: I thought of you when now I think of you
Speaker 1: whenever I see somebody that has one line on the
Speaker 1: show delivering a document.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so he's gonna go up there in the
Speaker 2: defense and Chauncey and Elliott are taking the stand listen,
Speaker 2: they're basically just like, did he know what was going on?
Speaker 3: Was he aggrieving Dad?
Speaker 2: Like they're just trying to figure out what Elliot saw
Speaker 2: and what Elliott felt during that. And the closing arguments
Speaker 2: are here Casey's wearing a very Chase Bank manager skirt
Speaker 2: suit outfit with a flip in her hair, and the
Speaker 2: closing arguments are just like again like reiteration of what
Speaker 2: the whole fucking case is, you know, is it like
Speaker 2: did he lose control sad Dad? Or did he know
Speaker 2: exactly what was going on? And Casey wants the jury
Speaker 2: to hold him responsible. We find the defendant not guilty.
Speaker 3: How did you feel?
Speaker 1: I sort of felt like I knew that was coming.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's because eight times or because
Speaker 1: I just felt it in the air. I feel like,
Speaker 1: though on a jury, you get one dad, one mom
Speaker 1: that's like I would have done the same thing, and
Speaker 1: it's hard to convince a whole jury that that was
Speaker 1: a murder, you know, And Jake's.
Speaker 2: Mom is in the court audience, and I don't know
Speaker 2: what to say. I mean, I don't feel bad for her, No,
Speaker 2: I do. I don't know. I would hate to have
Speaker 2: a child and then they end up a sociopath. Like
Speaker 2: that's fun, It's difficult.
Speaker 3: What do you do? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, what are you gonna do if Rosie one day
Speaker 2: just lights a squirrel's tail on fire, I'm not.
Speaker 3: Putting it past her.
Speaker 1: She gets a real crazy look in her eye when
Speaker 1: she throws plastic toys at my head.
Speaker 3: So I don't know.
Speaker 2: Shauncey and Casey have a stare down that lasts like
Speaker 2: seven seconds. It's really like an intense long stare. I
Speaker 2: don't even understand what the tension is, Like, I don't
Speaker 2: get it.
Speaker 3: Maybe they were banging. Maybe no, I think I think
Speaker 3: she can bag Hotter, but yeah, maybe he is. Okay,
Speaker 3: let's get it.
Speaker 2: So doctor Morton is doing a bunch of press again
Speaker 2: on the courtroom steps, like they deserve a guest Star
Speaker 2: Emmy for this episode, and Elliott and Casey are you know?
Speaker 2: On the sidewalk and he runs to them and Elliott asks,
Speaker 2: when did you decide to kill Jake? He responds in
Speaker 2: the courtroom right when I knew what Jake was. He tells, Casey,
Speaker 2: you were correct. I looked around and saw the court officer,
Speaker 2: and I knew I could take the gun and just
Speaker 2: waited for the right moment. And Elliott says, you manipulated
Speaker 2: us just like Jake did. And Kyle says, there's one
Speaker 2: big difference. Jake would have killed again, I won't and
Speaker 2: he walks away and it ends with Elliott staring off
Speaker 2: into the distance.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Dick wal It's a really crazy episode. I
Speaker 3: always remember. I always remember Jake going on, really sorry, sir,
Speaker 3: and that actor has not acted in the past five years,
Speaker 3: And I mean I thought he was, like great, if
Speaker 3: you're a friend of the guy who plays Jake, tell
Speaker 3: him we'll always think of him fondly as a child's sociopath.
Speaker 2: No, it's a great episode, lots of twists and turns,
Speaker 2: lots of you know, debates of like what would you do?
Speaker 2: It's like a really classic, incredible episode.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we'll be right back with the harrowing case
Speaker 3: it was based on. We are back.
Speaker 1: We are ready to talk about horrific crimes against children.
Speaker 1: I have to say I was telling Lisa and our
Speaker 1: producer Hannah before ever since I had a kid, these
Speaker 1: are just really really hard cases to read about. So
Speaker 1: just giving everybody a warning up top, these are really terrible.
Speaker 1: There's a few cases that this could be based on.
Speaker 1: I'll just say one is the killing of two year
Speaker 1: old James Bulger, which happened in the UK, and he
Speaker 1: was murdered by two ten year old boys, and it
Speaker 1: is truly one of the most horrific cases I've ever
Speaker 1: read about. I've listened to podcasts about it, and I've
Speaker 1: read about it extensively, and it's it just like gives
Speaker 1: me nightmares. And then another one is the murder of
Speaker 1: John Pious on Long Island in nineteen seventy nine. He
Speaker 1: was a thirteen year old who was killed by other
Speaker 1: teenage boys who did shove rocks down his throat. So
Speaker 1: that's like the similarity with the pebbles in this episode.
Speaker 1: But I think that I've decided to focus on the
Speaker 1: case of Eric M. Smith because I think it's probably
Speaker 1: a little bit closer to what happened in this exact episode.
Speaker 3: So get ready to get sad.
Speaker 1: This crime took place on August second in nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: three in Savonah, New York, which is a tiny village
Speaker 1: with a population of nine hundred and seventy people, or
Speaker 1: at the time I guess that was the population, so
Speaker 1: super tiny.
Speaker 3: Eric m.
Speaker 1: Smith, age thirteen, was riding his bike home from summer
Speaker 1: day camp after being told to leave because of bad behavior,
Speaker 1: and he spotted four year old Derek Roby walking along
Speaker 1: alone to that same camp. Now, I was originally thinking,
Speaker 1: oh my god, who lets a four year old walk
Speaker 1: anywhere alone? But the camp was one block from his home,
Speaker 1: he only had one block to go, no streets to cross.
Speaker 1: The park where the camp was was on a dead
Speaker 1: end street, so it was essentially just letting him go
Speaker 1: to the end of the street. And his mom said
Speaker 1: it was the first time she ever let him go
Speaker 1: anywhere alone, which is I mean always kind of the case,
Speaker 1: and it's terrible. The details of the crime were not
Speaker 1: made public at the time, but Derek's family later released
Speaker 1: them to stop the killer from getting pearls. So this
Speaker 1: is what we learned later happened is that Smith lured
Speaker 1: Derek into a nearby wooded area. He strangled him, dropped
Speaker 1: a large twenty six pound rock on his head multiple times,
Speaker 1: undressed his body, poured kool aid from his lunchbox all
Speaker 1: over him, and then sodomized him with a small stick
Speaker 1: that he found. He later claimed that he thought by
Speaker 1: inserting the stick into the boy, it would reach up
Speaker 1: and stop his heart. So I don't know if there
Speaker 1: was necessarily a sexual angle to it or more just
Speaker 1: an immature boy doing what he thought was like, you know,
Speaker 1: like this was a video game or something like that.
Speaker 3: It is just.
Speaker 2: Wild that you could be a dumb child and still
Speaker 2: commit murder like this. I thinking a stick can stop
Speaker 2: a heart if he's not dying, but then also commit murder.
Speaker 3: It's like, what the fuck?
Speaker 6: Right?
Speaker 1: So the cause of death was determined to be blunt
Speaker 1: forced trump it's the head with contributing asphyxia. So around
Speaker 1: eleven am, his mom went to go pick him up
Speaker 1: at the park, only to discover that he had never arrived.
Speaker 3: After four hours, they found his body.
Speaker 1: So because there was literally a block of land to cover,
Speaker 1: this is what I find insane. Four days after his
Speaker 1: body has found, Eric the thirteen year old, goes to
Speaker 1: THEO to see if he can help with the investigation,
Speaker 1: and the investigator, John Hibbish, I don't know how to
Speaker 1: say this last name, it's hib Scch, I'll just say Hibbish,
Speaker 1: said Eric was enjoying talking to the police, like he
Speaker 1: seemed really uppy and happy, and at first he denied
Speaker 1: seeing Derek and then changed his story and said that
Speaker 1: he saw him and he could describe what he was
Speaker 1: wearing in his lunchbox and everything. And then at some
Speaker 1: point during his questioning, I guess his dad was with him,
Speaker 1: his stepdad Smith asked to take a break, and his
Speaker 1: dad brought him a glass of kool aid. And then
Speaker 1: when Hibbish started continuing to question him, he grabbed the
Speaker 1: kool aid and just threw it on the ground. And
Speaker 1: they knew that kool aid had been poured on the body,
Speaker 1: so it was like it was just like red flags
Speaker 1: for this guy, Hibbish the investigator. The next day, Eric
Speaker 1: takes them on like a little walkthrough of where he
Speaker 1: saw Derek, and they still think he's kind of enjoying himself,
Speaker 1: like being part of the investigation, like everybody paying attention
Speaker 1: to him, talking, cops talking to him, blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: There's an interesting little tidbit that Smith's neighbor, Marlene Heskell,
Speaker 1: they were friends of the Smith family, said that Eric
Speaker 1: was at their house every night from the night of
Speaker 1: the murder like until later, and he would ask weird
Speaker 1: questions like what if it turned out to be a
Speaker 1: kid and the end, she would say something like I
Speaker 1: seriously think they would need some psychiatric help, and he'd
Speaker 1: be like okay and then walk away.
Speaker 3: And then he would always be like and DNA testing,
Speaker 3: what does that show?
Speaker 1: So he was like interested in how cases work and
Speaker 1: people getting caught for murder. Marlene, this neighbor actually did
Speaker 1: her own little Sherlock homes Olivia Benson work because the
Speaker 1: murderer had taken the banana out of the victim's lunchbox
Speaker 1: and smashed it everywhere, and so they were speculating that
Speaker 1: the murderer could be a kid who didn't like bananas,
Speaker 1: because like an adult would just be like, oh a
Speaker 1: banana and throw it away. They wouldn't like squash it
Speaker 1: and like make a huge mess of destroying it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I wouldn't want to leave any DNA
Speaker 2: evidence if I committed a crime. But like I love
Speaker 2: squeezing raw chicken, Like I like, uh, look, I like
Speaker 2: whenever I out and I just want to like school.
Speaker 3: I just love that chicken.
Speaker 1: So anyway, Marlene decides to do this little experiment where
Speaker 1: she goes to the store buys ice cream, nuts, syrup,
Speaker 1: and bananas and is like, who wants a Sunday and
Speaker 1: Eric was gonna have nuts in syrup, but he didn't
Speaker 1: want banana and was like, no, I don't like bananas.
Speaker 1: And so she called her friend Nancy and said, Eric
Speaker 1: doesn't like bananas. I'm scared, okay, so like And then
Speaker 1: on August eighth, nineteen ninety three, six days after the murder,
Speaker 1: Eric Smith confessed to his mother that he murdered Derek.
Speaker 1: So obviously the case made national headlines.
Speaker 2: So he's probably not a sociopath then, because he felt
Speaker 2: remorse and guilt or why else would you confess?
Speaker 3: Right? I think he knew that was closing in on him.
Speaker 1: How can you be How can you go and offer
Speaker 1: your help to the police and play and be happy
Speaker 1: and have that role?
Speaker 3: That is what scares me.
Speaker 1: I think it's the same way that the kid did
Speaker 1: in the episode. He specific made up this guy who
Speaker 1: he saw staring at Henry, even though that never happened.
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, I think inserting yourself in the case is
Speaker 1: something is kind of creepy about that.
Speaker 3: As a kid too, Like you could just be quiet
Speaker 3: in your room and like you do something wrong. As
Speaker 3: a kid, I used to like turn the lights out.
Speaker 1: And be in my room and like wait to get
Speaker 1: in trouble, like I don't know, I feel like you
Speaker 1: don't like go and say like poke around and try
Speaker 1: to like make people remember you more. But the case
Speaker 1: made national headlines obviously due to the age of the
Speaker 1: killer and the victim. And what's crazy is Eric ms
Speaker 1: I mean thirteen years old. There's a varying range of
Speaker 1: what you can look like at thirteen.
Speaker 3: This kid looked very young. When you were describing the
Speaker 3: red headed kid from the camp in the episode, that's
Speaker 3: what this kid looked like. He looks like the kid
Speaker 3: from Problem Child.
Speaker 1: He's like young, red hair, freckles, like dorky glasses like
Speaker 1: he looks like a kid. The prosecutor said he fully
Speaker 1: believed that Eric was a serial killer in the making
Speaker 1: and would definitely kill again.
Speaker 3: That's what the prosecutor thought. So at the.
Speaker 1: Trial, the defense told the jury that as a toddler,
Speaker 1: Smith through temper tantrums, banged his head on the floor,
Speaker 1: had speech problems, was held back in school, and was
Speaker 1: relentlessly bullied, and when he asked for help with his anger,
Speaker 1: his stepfather did not really seem equipped to help him,
Speaker 1: like he told him Oh, when I was a kid
Speaker 1: and I got mad, I just went out to the
Speaker 1: barn and punched a bag until I got tired of it.
Speaker 1: So Eric would go punch trees and like come in
Speaker 1: with like bloody hands. It's not great parental guidance. I
Speaker 1: feel like the defense psychiatrist, doctor Stephen Hermann, diagnosed Smith
Speaker 1: with intermittent explosive disorder, which is basically uncontrollable rage, literally
Speaker 1: deadly rage.
Speaker 3: And anger is what the doctor said.
Speaker 1: And he said, after the episodic rage, the child may
Speaker 1: appear to be normal. So the prosecution's experts said, yeah,
Speaker 1: that is a disorder, but it's rare and it's rarely
Speaker 1: seen in a kid at Smith's age. So he was
Speaker 1: really subjected to a lot of medical testing from scientists
Speaker 1: and specialists on both sides, and they like they looked
Speaker 1: at his brain function, his hormone life and everything, and
Speaker 1: nothing really explained his violent behavior. And the defense psychiatrist,
Speaker 1: doctor Hermann was like, something happened to his brain, but
Speaker 1: we just can't measure it.
Speaker 2: So it wasn't conclude that he was like a sociopath
Speaker 2: or anything like that.
Speaker 1: They just I think, again, you can't really make that
Speaker 1: conclusion at thirteen, it's just like an episode. You can't
Speaker 1: really say that, so you can have all these other
Speaker 1: personality disorders that you know could obviously read flag you
Speaker 1: to be diagnosed as a sociopath. Later on, even his mother,
Speaker 1: like everyone was trying to figure out what did this?
Speaker 1: Like his mother Tammy, said she took an epilepsy drug
Speaker 1: when she was pregnant, called tridone, which can cause birth defects.
Speaker 3: Like I think she was like anything, I mean, I
Speaker 3: took this bad drug? Is it that?
Speaker 1: Like, you know, everyone's trying to figure out, like what
Speaker 1: would cause him to be violent? The doctor, the psychiatrist Hermann,
Speaker 1: said he wasn't suggesting that the drug would have caused
Speaker 1: Eric to be violent, but he does believe that it
Speaker 1: caused his ears to be low set and caused his
Speaker 1: developmental delays, which profoundly affected his self esteem. He says
Speaker 1: his pain and rage over overwhelmed him. And then the
Speaker 1: prosecution argued that Smith knew full well that his actions
Speaker 1: were wrong, because he admitted that he lured Derek into
Speaker 1: the woods for the killing so no one would see
Speaker 1: and I guess during the whole trial, Smith's face was
Speaker 1: eerily blank. He had no expression, no real remorse. His
Speaker 1: dad said in an interview, I don't ever recall him
Speaker 1: saying you.
Speaker 3: Was sorry he killed the boy. So they tried to
Speaker 3: go with this kind of insanity defense for him, and
Speaker 3: the jury rejected it.
Speaker 1: He was tried as an adult, he was convicted, and
Speaker 1: he was sentenced to nine years to life in prison.
Speaker 3: So it could be any anything. So is he still
Speaker 3: in prison. I'll tell you, okay. Sorry.
Speaker 1: So he was originally in a juvenile facility until two
Speaker 1: thousand and one when he turned twenty one, and then
Speaker 1: he was transferred to a state prison in twenty fourteen.
Speaker 1: At one of his parole hearings, he said he had
Speaker 1: been bullied by older children at school and also by
Speaker 1: his father and his older sister, so he felt bullied
Speaker 1: all the time. I do think redheads can somehow sometimes
Speaker 1: get a lot of bullying and it's not right. But
Speaker 1: apparently people just said no one liked him, like he
Speaker 1: had no friends.
Speaker 3: People didn't like him. He told the parole board he'd.
Speaker 1: Been so angry about being abused by his family that
Speaker 1: he took out his frustration on four year old Derek,
Speaker 1: and he did write a public apology at one point
Speaker 1: that he read out loud on television that was, like,
Speaker 1: I would.
Speaker 3: I think about Derek all the time.
Speaker 1: I think about him missing his sixteenth birthday, his college graduation,
Speaker 1: getting married.
Speaker 3: Having a kid.
Speaker 1: If I could switch places with him, I would, but
Speaker 1: I can't. I'm so sorry for everything I've done, so
Speaker 1: I mean a red statement.
Speaker 3: Who knows.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but my initial instincts was like, he just said
Speaker 2: that he missed out on those things. I don't think
Speaker 2: he has anything to do with the okay, and I
Speaker 2: think he wishes he did that exactly.
Speaker 1: He said in his parole hearings that he wouldn't be
Speaker 1: a danger to society anymore and that he thinks he
Speaker 1: would actually be an asset to society because he saw
Speaker 1: himself becoming a forensic psychologist and researching other kids who kill.
Speaker 1: That he's uniquely suited for this line of work because
Speaker 1: he is he was a child who killed, and you
Speaker 1: know whatever.
Speaker 3: So I don't know if that's realist. Catch me if
Speaker 3: you can, yeah, I don't know if that could ever happen.
Speaker 1: And he most recently, in January of twenty twenty, was
Speaker 1: denied parole for the tenth time. So he is now
Speaker 1: forty years old. He is still in jail, and he
Speaker 1: looks like Bill Burr. He's like bald, but like with
Speaker 1: some of the hair on the back. And he is
Speaker 1: up for pearl every two years, and Derek's poor family
Speaker 1: is fighting for it to be extended to five years
Speaker 1: because they feel like they're constantly in pearl hearings like it.
Speaker 1: It almost feels like every eighteen months they just have
Speaker 1: to like go back to court and like show a
Speaker 1: home video of Derek and relive this whole trauma that
Speaker 1: they had. So that's essentially the case. That's kind of sad.
Speaker 1: Here's what I want to know. Back to the SVU.
Speaker 3: Case really quickly. Why was their cat hair in Henry's throat? Oh?
Speaker 2: I think it's has to do with that Jake killed
Speaker 2: that cat, like the neighbor's cat, and that Henry was
Speaker 2: going to tell on him. So maybe he just had
Speaker 2: that cat hair on his body or like fibers of
Speaker 2: it after killing the cat. I bet that he killed
Speaker 2: the cat on purpose. There's no way he accidentally fell
Speaker 2: on the cat.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, he definitely killed the cat on purpose.
Speaker 3: It's just I didn't know.
Speaker 1: That if you were had a cat, you were constantly
Speaker 1: covered in cat hair and leaving it at the scene
Speaker 1: of crimes. But I think that it's a similar story
Speaker 1: in that, like, whereas Kyle McGlaughlin's character said, this kid
Speaker 1: is a is like a psychopath, that's also what the
Speaker 1: prosecutor thought, and instead of killing him, they obviously have
Speaker 1: kept him in jail his entire life. But he's now
Speaker 1: been in jail for twenty seven years. I mean, he's
Speaker 1: been in jail much longer than he was out of jail.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder if they'll like let him out at
Speaker 2: eighty or something or I don't know. That's well because
Speaker 2: now I'm thinking a part of me is like, should
Speaker 2: we just let this guy out? But I bet you know,
Speaker 2: sometimes jail makes you an even worse criminal. Because he's
Speaker 2: been mostly raised in prison.
Speaker 1: And he has like a perfect prison record, like he
Speaker 1: has an exemplary prison I think that there's something. There
Speaker 1: must be something about his affect and the way he
Speaker 1: appears or something in court that makes the pro board
Speaker 1: think that he will not be able to reacclimate to
Speaker 1: society and be and not be a threat.
Speaker 3: I don't know, not worth the risk, but it's just
Speaker 3: really sad. Little Derek was so short lived for this
Speaker 3: world and little Angel.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's also and you know, we've had an episode
Speaker 2: in the past about this, but like it just sucks
Speaker 2: when it's the first time.
Speaker 3: You let your kid do something alone. I know, I know.
Speaker 1: And like going to the end of the block, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like the amount of space that he had to
Speaker 1: get to was crazy. And such a small town, like
Speaker 1: such a small town for that to happen in you know,
Speaker 1: everybody knows each other.
Speaker 3: Yeah, damn, thank you for that, Kara. Now I want
Speaker 3: kool aid.
Speaker 2: And now I'm really excited for our guest.
Speaker 3: It is time for our guest.
Speaker 2: And I know this is usually Kara's job, but I'm
Speaker 2: getting involved this week.
Speaker 3: And I don't care what you guys think. I'm sure
Speaker 3: you're fine with it. I'm sure you're fine with it.
Speaker 1: No, guys, our guest today is mind blowing. Listen, this
Speaker 1: is our first time having a non actor guest on
Speaker 1: the show.
Speaker 3: But you're going to know the name. You're going to
Speaker 3: know this person.
Speaker 1: Our guest has worked on Er Designated Survivor a million shows,
Speaker 1: but most importantly, he was the executive producer and showrunner
Speaker 1: of Law and Order Special Victims Unit from two thousand
Speaker 1: to twenty eleven.
Speaker 3: That is the Golden Years. Yeah, season two through season twelve.
Speaker 3: So he came in with iced tea, he left with maloney.
Speaker 2: And if you don't know what a showrunner is, they're
Speaker 2: basically in charge of everything, like of all the writers
Speaker 2: of the wardrobe, they're pick they're really.
Speaker 3: Running the show.
Speaker 6: Hello.
Speaker 3: And then on top of all of it, he's a doctor.
Speaker 3: He is a doctor. Yes, he is. Like he's the
Speaker 3: smartest man alive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he literally has so much information. We spoke
Speaker 1: to him for one hour and we didn't want to
Speaker 1: hang up.
Speaker 3: We didn't want to Yeah, we could have done a
Speaker 3: full another two hours.
Speaker 1: But so the interview jumps around a little bit because
Speaker 1: he just has so much information and we kind of
Speaker 1: picked the stuff that we thought you guys would be
Speaker 1: the most interested in. We do have a couple more
Speaker 1: tidbits that are going to be audiograms over at our instagram,
Speaker 1: So go over to our instagram and follow us at
Speaker 1: That's Messed Up.
Speaker 3: Pod for more of those. But in the meantime, please
Speaker 3: enjoy our interview with the one and only Neil Bhar.
Speaker 3: I am really nervous.
Speaker 2: I feel like you're going to be like you guys
Speaker 2: were wrong about everything.
Speaker 3: You girls, So I'm assuming because you're a pediatrician. My
Speaker 3: mom's a pediatrician. Also, wonderful profession.
Speaker 1: Were you practicing for a while and then you just
Speaker 1: sort of became like a consultant on er or something?
Speaker 3: Or how did that progression work to get into it?
Speaker 3: From medicine to ten television?
Speaker 4: I was a TV writer on China Beach and then
Speaker 4: I went to medical school.
Speaker 6: John Wells hired me.
Speaker 4: We grew up together in Denver, Colorado, So people say,
Speaker 4: how do you get into the business.
Speaker 6: Do you write a speck?
Speaker 4: I said, now, you grow up and go to Holly
Speaker 4: Hills Elementary School with John Wells, and we lived six
Speaker 4: blocks from each other, so I ran into him literally
Speaker 4: with the grocery cart in la He was the producer
Speaker 4: of China Beach. He brought me on and then I
Speaker 4: left to go to medical school. A couple of years
Speaker 4: after that, thinking I don't know if I have a
Speaker 4: career here. My son was born, and in my fourth
Speaker 4: year of medical school, John sent me the script Michael
Speaker 4: Crichton wrote for Er and it had been written twenty
Speaker 4: five years before, and lay dormant for all that time
Speaker 4: in Spielberg.
Speaker 6: Somebody in Spielberg's office found at Spielberg owned it.
Speaker 4: And Spielberg had made you know, Saving Private Ryan e
Speaker 4: thinking Jindler's list around that time, and Crichton had done
Speaker 4: Jurassic Parks.
Speaker 6: So NBC did not like the pilot.
Speaker 4: They thought there were too many stories, but given the pedigree,
Speaker 4: they did it. And John sent me the script and
Speaker 4: I gave him notes on what had changed over the
Speaker 4: twenty five years, and he invited me to come and share.
Speaker 6: My life, just to spill.
Speaker 4: It for the writers, and I went on as a
Speaker 4: staff writer. So I'm the first Lance genteel, another doctor,
Speaker 4: and I are the first doctor writers in television.
Speaker 6: And now every medical TV series has a doctor writer.
Speaker 4: We established that in the past from Saint Elsewhere and
Speaker 4: before with Medical Center and Marcus Welby and all those shows.
Speaker 4: They had consultants who'd sprinkle the medicine on top. This
Speaker 4: was the medicine from the bottom up. So I was
Speaker 4: still in medical school when Er started, so I was
Speaker 4: like Noah Wiley's character John Carter, and whatever happened to
Speaker 4: him pretty much happened to me or my friends and
Speaker 4: then as he progressed, I progressed. So I finished medical
Speaker 4: school during different sort of time periods when we were
Speaker 4: on break or on vacation, I'd go back to Boston,
Speaker 4: and then I did the residency over like seven years
Speaker 4: at Children's Hospital, LA.
Speaker 6: So when SVU started, I was still in the midst.
Speaker 4: Of that, and I'd be hiding in the linen closet
Speaker 4: giving notes on SVU because I would work like some
Speaker 4: shifts in the early morning and the nurse would open
Speaker 4: the door and she'd say, Oh, he's doing.
Speaker 6: His other job.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 6: I was like two years into SVU.
Speaker 4: I was still doing stuff to get my license, and
Speaker 4: so I never practiced per se. But I do a
Speaker 4: lot of work in public health, like I teach at
Speaker 4: Harvard Medical School, I have an appointment and also at
Speaker 4: Yale School of Public Health.
Speaker 6: So I doing that kind of work still.
Speaker 4: And how to tell stories about health that can have
Speaker 4: an impact, to make a difference.
Speaker 3: That's amazing.
Speaker 1: So you were reading the news looking for impactful stories
Speaker 1: and then immediately writing episodes based on what you read.
Speaker 4: I used to say that the mothership law and Order
Speaker 4: would rip from the headlines. That was kind of the
Speaker 4: you know, known kind of mantra like rip from the headlines,
Speaker 4: And I would say that as for you, the headlines
Speaker 4: were ripped from us because we would do stories that
Speaker 4: were in the zeitgeist, and we talked to a lot
Speaker 4: of experts and so things like, for instance, I had
Speaker 4: Marishka do an episode where she lies and she swabs
Speaker 4: her mouth and sends it through to see if there's
Speaker 4: a match that her rapist father might be in the system,
Speaker 4: and that's how she meets her half brother Michael Weston's
Speaker 4: character Ymon Simon.
Speaker 6: And that was because I.
Speaker 4: Had read some article in a journal that you know,
Speaker 4: you could take DNA and what if you didn't do
Speaker 4: a ninety nine percent match that everybody just kind of
Speaker 4: in a pro former way says, what if you said
Speaker 4: it at fifty percent, what would that mean? Is this
Speaker 4: violating privacy rights? So we did it long before the
Speaker 4: grim sleeper was caught in Los Angeles, you know, I
Speaker 4: think they caught his son and then they did fifty
Speaker 4: DNA match and they found that this young guy they
Speaker 4: picked up for some minor charge was related either by
Speaker 4: being a brother an uncle, father. So then they mapped
Speaker 4: and looked at the people, you know who he would
Speaker 4: possibly match. And they found that his father lived near Boton,
Speaker 4: in that area where.
Speaker 6: The women all had been murdered.
Speaker 4: So I think they went to his trash and picked
Speaker 4: out something and that's legal.
Speaker 6: We did that a lot of times on SVU, and
Speaker 6: that's how they got him.
Speaker 4: And they've gotten a number of people using kind of
Speaker 4: the twenty three and me approach where it's not the
Speaker 4: person who's DNA they have, but it's a close relative.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the Golden State killer they just they just found.
Speaker 4: So we did that, as far as I know, way
Speaker 4: before anybody else did that. So I was always looking
Speaker 4: at the you know, the technology in service of the story,
Speaker 4: always so that.
Speaker 6: We could do things that kept us you.
Speaker 4: Know, I wanted to do a story about Benson wants
Speaker 4: to find out who her father was, you know, so
Speaker 4: that seemed like an interesting way to bring in the technology,
Speaker 4: but it still was about her character.
Speaker 1: And you having a medical background is probably really helpful
Speaker 1: there that you're reading these journals, because I'm sure regular
Speaker 1: TV writers are not popping open the Annals of Pediatrics.
Speaker 6: And you know, absolutely I read in Neurology a case.
Speaker 4: This was an episode you undoubtedly will remember since you
Speaker 4: know every episode there was a case of a man
Speaker 4: who had a proclivity for pornography, but you know, he
Speaker 4: had a fairly normal life and then suddenly he was
Speaker 4: drawn to child pornography and he was arrested and it
Speaker 4: turned out that he had terrible headaches and he had
Speaker 4: a seizure and he had a brain tumor. They removed
Speaker 4: the brain tumor and he lost these feelings.
Speaker 3: This is that episode ahead exactly.
Speaker 4: And then the feelings came back, and guess what, he
Speaker 4: had the tumor again. So that raises questions about are
Speaker 4: we going to get to a point where we can
Speaker 4: screen people and take away their rights? And so that's
Speaker 4: how I think SVU. You know, some of the secrets
Speaker 4: of SVU were this deep research.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a few of our listeners have like written in
Speaker 1: asking us to do certain episodes, And when I look
Speaker 1: up the dates, I'm like, the show cover that before
Speaker 1: the crime happened. Actually, like I hate to tell you.
Speaker 4: Well, you know it's really weird is that I don't
Speaker 4: know if you're aware that I oversaw a mini series
Speaker 4: called Terror and I was in the World Trade Center
Speaker 4: the Thursday before the before.
Speaker 6: Nine to eleven, and we had a five hour.
Speaker 4: Crossover series on terrorists with SVU Law and Order and
Speaker 4: Criminal Intent. So we used everybody and we at anthrax.
Speaker 4: In fact, we were called to ask us how did
Speaker 4: we know about this? And it's like, we did this research,
Speaker 4: like we knew the University of Minnesota was the place
Speaker 4: you wanted to go to learn about aerosolization.
Speaker 6: And so what was bizarre was I think if you
Speaker 6: look at.
Speaker 4: Variety on the morning of nine to eleven, I think
Speaker 4: it says terror or something and it talks about our
Speaker 4: mini series, you know, because we were so close to it.
Speaker 4: We had already cast it, and so it never went
Speaker 4: Remember Jeff Zucker called me that night.
Speaker 6: I was in New York.
Speaker 4: I saw horrible, you know, I was at Chelsea Piers
Speaker 4: and saw the towers come down, and.
Speaker 6: Jeff wondered if we could do it.
Speaker 4: Still It's like, no, there's no right, but we But
Speaker 4: it's weird. Go back and look at Variety September eleventh,
Speaker 4: It's weird.
Speaker 6: Wow, because we were going to do this. We did
Speaker 6: a lot of research.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's so it's like, you know, we're not
Speaker 4: really like it's like when I did Designated Survivor recently,
Speaker 4: we did a show about voter suppression and white supremacy
Speaker 4: was the whole season. Well, that was in we wrote
Speaker 4: it in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen. It's not because we
Speaker 4: were prescient. It's because we really talked to experts and
Speaker 4: we wanted to know, like, what are you worried about?
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is the next big problem coming down the pipeline.
Speaker 4: And that's what we did with SVU, so we would
Speaker 4: look at like like we did this episode. It was
Speaker 4: a really profound episode with Rosie Perez and Eric Dillahunt,
Speaker 4: and that was about a guy saying, I did it.
Speaker 4: I'm a pedophile and I was born that way. And
Speaker 4: that was really controversial because it's like, these are bad people,
Speaker 4: and it's like what are psychiatrists and forensic psychiatrists saying,
Speaker 4: And it's like, how do we help them to suppress
Speaker 4: these urges? But this is kind of a sexual orientation,
Speaker 4: so to speak, which is why it's like when you're
Speaker 4: quite homosexuality and pedophilia like Scalia did, that's like really
Speaker 4: ridiculus us because these are different kinds of orientations and
Speaker 4: we really tried to do that on the show and
Speaker 4: with Bed's character as well. I love you know, in
Speaker 4: the show Conscience. I love when b D says you
Speaker 4: can't teach a conscience or you can't learn.
Speaker 3: I think you can't grow a conscience, grow a conscience.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit more about conscience specifically,
Speaker 1: like that episode, like how it.
Speaker 3: Came to be?
Speaker 1: Or I mean, I know you've literally overseen like so
Speaker 1: many episodes, so I'm.
Speaker 3: Sure I don't know.
Speaker 6: Maybe one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems like you have a real memory for details.
Speaker 3: I'm not afraid to ask you.
Speaker 6: And you can ask me anytime.
Speaker 4: So yes, I was reading an article in the New
Speaker 4: York Times in two thousand and four about sociopathy and children.
Speaker 6: And could they be treated?
Speaker 4: And so there have been a number of articles since
Speaker 4: about children without a conscience?
Speaker 6: Are they treatable? What do we do? You know?
Speaker 4: These are kids who like set fires, kill pets, right,
Speaker 4: And so I thought, well, we'll create a character who's
Speaker 4: a psychiatrist who really knows about this, will have something
Speaker 4: happened to his own kid. And then because of all
Speaker 4: the research he's done, he knows this kid will kill again.
Speaker 4: He knows this kid as a psychopath, psychopaths, sociopath, same thing,
Speaker 4: kind of like the former president, so.
Speaker 6: You know they'll do anything.
Speaker 4: I liken it to a hall of mirrors, like in
Speaker 4: the movie The Lady from Shanghai, and in that scene
Speaker 4: where Orson Wells goes in and Rita Hayworth follows him,
Speaker 4: he sees hundreds and hundreds of images of himself. That's
Speaker 4: how what I think, because how do we get into
Speaker 4: it was always a question of how do we get
Speaker 4: into people's heads when they're doing these terrible things. And
Speaker 4: I try to think sort of metaphorically, and I sort
Speaker 4: of see that character, or I see Trump, or somebody
Speaker 4: who has sociopathy has just seeing hundreds of images of
Speaker 4: himself and that's how they see the world. And so
Speaker 4: if if you have a kid who has done some
Speaker 4: bad things, then how do you deal with this? And
Speaker 4: of course col McLaughlin's character does something that's really dire,
Speaker 4: but we.
Speaker 6: Were trying to make that point, like how do you
Speaker 6: deal with this? How do you think about it? So
Speaker 6: it was no.
Speaker 4: I was just very fortunate because we would just write
Speaker 4: in depth, so with conscience. It was really the springboard
Speaker 4: was something I read and I just thought, this.
Speaker 6: Is really interesting. How do we dig into this story?
Speaker 6: When if it's true.
Speaker 4: Now there's more research thing maybe these people are treatable,
Speaker 4: but not all sociopaths kill, but they do things that
Speaker 4: are bad and that are harmful. So how do we
Speaker 4: address that?
Speaker 3: Moving away from psychopaths?
Speaker 2: Who are the people that you really wanted to have
Speaker 2: on the show and then you got them?
Speaker 4: I would go to people I loved, like Lois Smith,
Speaker 4: who's like ninety and on Broadway and Inheritance, she played
Speaker 4: the mother of a woman with Down syndrome who's pregnant
Speaker 4: and not really quite sure.
Speaker 6: I love that episode.
Speaker 3: I love that episode.
Speaker 4: And then I wanted to work with Piper Laurie, who
Speaker 4: was in the movie The Hustler.
Speaker 3: And Twin Peaks and Twin Peaks.
Speaker 4: And Children of a Lesser God and Carrie she was amazing,
Speaker 4: and Carol Burnette and Anne Margaret and Ellen Burston and
Speaker 4: Jeremy Irons and Jerry Lewis and Jacquin Bassett.
Speaker 2: So do you write the episodes with these people in
Speaker 2: mind and then go after them?
Speaker 6: So sometimes I would call them first.
Speaker 4: So I would talk to Carol Burnett and I'd say,
Speaker 4: you know, I'd love you to do the show, and
Speaker 4: she goes, well, I bet you know. I said, I've
Speaker 4: been a fan. She said, like, what when you were
Speaker 4: a kid and watch my show.
Speaker 6: With your mother?
Speaker 4: Yes, she said, well what's the part? And I said,
Speaker 4: you'd kill all these men? She's like, I do, And
Speaker 4: I said, they're really bad and you get away with it.
Speaker 4: And she's like, oh, I like that.
Speaker 3: What are the episodes that really haunt you?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 2: We have some that stick with us and really haunt
Speaker 2: us forever, and I would love to know those that
Speaker 2: do that to you.
Speaker 4: One of my favorites, because I think it actually had
Speaker 4: an impact, is the one with Becky Ann Baker and
Speaker 4: it's still and Baker's wife, and she's an amazing actor.
Speaker 6: She plays the mother of a kid who's fourteen.
Speaker 4: And just doesn't really have any friends and he just
Speaker 4: wants to be liked, and so he befriends this psychopathic
Speaker 4: twelve year old who tells him go get that knife,
Speaker 4: and he does, and the twelve year old murders the woman.
Speaker 4: The twelve year old is sent to juvie because he's twelve,
Speaker 4: and the fourteen year old is tried as an adult
Speaker 4: and gets life in prison before the Supreme Court ruled
Speaker 4: you can't do that anymore, and he's an accessory. So
Speaker 4: it's just a terrible, terrible tragedy. There were people who
Speaker 4: did things like that who were in prison for life.
Speaker 6: Some girl gave her boyfriend a.
Speaker 4: Gun and later weeks later, whatever it was, he shot
Speaker 4: somebody and she's isn't for life.
Speaker 1: No, the Trump administration just executed a man who did
Speaker 1: not have a hand in the actual murder.
Speaker 3: He was just an accomplice.
Speaker 4: And so you can't do that anymore with people under eighteen,
Speaker 4: and they're still trying, I believe to grandfather people.
Speaker 6: And so that haunted me because that kid was like
Speaker 6: I just wanted to, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 4: On the stand too, it's like I just wanted to
Speaker 4: and the mother's like, oh my god, like how fair
Speaker 4: is this? So I remember like sending it to the
Speaker 4: people who are arguing in this case because it's about juveniles,
Speaker 4: and so that I love that episode. I love the episode.
Speaker 4: Love the episode that is haunting. That was your question.
Speaker 4: Is the Lou Diamond Phillips episode. Oh yeah, that's pushing
Speaker 4: Rishka and Chris's relationship to the degree will you die
Speaker 4: for each other?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 4: And so here's Benson slashed by Lou Diamond Phillips horrible character,
Speaker 4: and Stable has to make a split second decision. Does
Speaker 4: he chase after this guy why because no telling what
Speaker 4: he'll do next, or does he save Benson? And so
Speaker 4: he saves Benson and the guy kills a kid, and
Speaker 4: it's just like, but that's life. Always was looking for
Speaker 4: ways to plumb the depth of Benson and Stabler and Finn.
Speaker 4: So I gave Finn a queer son because I thought
Speaker 4: that'll be good.
Speaker 2: I love how much you love the episodes with the
Speaker 2: main characters and their emotional growth and stuff. It shows
Speaker 2: how much you really love them, and I like that.
Speaker 1: And it shows because we always talk about Finn, like
Speaker 1: when you watch some of the older episodes, Finn's attitudes
Speaker 1: are a little bit old school and like he really grows.
Speaker 1: I think giving him a queer son was like a
Speaker 1: great character developer for him.
Speaker 6: And first of all, Coco's always there. We heard so
Speaker 6: I wrote stuff for Coco too. Coco's in two episodes.
Speaker 4: Coco is They're like the most normal, normal people in
Speaker 4: the world. We are like, It's like, I just love
Speaker 4: the whole sort of iced tea cocoa sort of vision. Yeah,
Speaker 4: but iced tea here's the great thing, Iced Tea. You know,
Speaker 4: most people don't want to work Friday nights, and as
Speaker 4: you progress during the week, you start later and you
Speaker 4: end later.
Speaker 6: So Friday's you could end at like two three in
Speaker 6: the morning.
Speaker 4: Always couldn't count on Iced Tea to say, hey, yeah,
Speaker 4: I'll just come in. So we would say, of Iced
Speaker 4: tease scenes for Friday nights. But I did a scene
Speaker 4: with him. I just said, you know, we're going to
Speaker 4: give you something that's really super intense, and we're going
Speaker 4: to cast an actor who you've never seen do this.
Speaker 4: So that was Julie Haggerty playing the social worker who
Speaker 4: missed right and commits suicide.
Speaker 6: And we're like, so it's also unexpected because you think of.
Speaker 4: Julie Haggerty an airplane and all these things, like Julie
Speaker 4: Haggerty is an amazing actor and she was so funny.
Speaker 4: But I thought, you know, I bet you that you'll
Speaker 4: just be like gut punched if we do the opposite
Speaker 4: with her. And I said, who would be the most
Speaker 4: interesting character to have this happen to? And I said,
Speaker 4: let's do it to Finn, who's so tough and have
Speaker 4: this terrifying scene.
Speaker 6: Was like, wow, this is like.
Speaker 4: This is deep ye, or like when Maloney said to
Speaker 4: me when he acted opposite, he's about you pair, it's
Speaker 4: you don't even hear it. When he tells her that
Speaker 4: her child is dead, he said, Neil, I thought this
Speaker 4: was real. I thought I was going down.
Speaker 3: With her, he said.
Speaker 6: I thought the world was ending. He said, I've never
Speaker 6: been in a.
Speaker 4: Scene like this where I really thought she was psychotic
Speaker 4: and it was like there's no acting here, he said.
Speaker 6: It was like, get me out of this room. I'm
Speaker 6: like freaking out.
Speaker 4: So, you know, I think that the actors are so
Speaker 4: intensely good that we had so many Oscar winners, Emmy winners,
Speaker 4: you know. Robin Williams, I love that episode. I wrote
Speaker 4: that it's the two hundredth episode, and it was based
Speaker 4: on a story I read about it about this cookie
Speaker 4: guy in Kentucky who was like calling.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think he called a McDonald's or something.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and it's like, hey, you know, go lock up
Speaker 6: that cute girl. It's like a strip searcher.
Speaker 4: So then I was like, well, that's weird, but I
Speaker 4: think let's go deeper and let's have him have a
Speaker 4: real reason that he's so angry at everybody.
Speaker 1: Right, And that's I think that's like, what's so we
Speaker 1: are both comedians, and so when we see comedians playing
Speaker 1: these roles, it's it's I think that extra It's like
Speaker 1: you said, it's an extra gut punch to have, like
Speaker 1: Danny Tanner or Will Truman or like guys or actors
Speaker 1: that you're just like Martin story. Yeah, Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: Martin Short, like the first dramatic role.
Speaker 3: We're dying to get him.
Speaker 4: Neil such a sweet man, and it's like, well that
Speaker 4: was again, it's like, oh my gosh, I love you know, Jiminy, you.
Speaker 3: Know, click yeah, and.
Speaker 6: I love him so much that we got to do something.
Speaker 4: And Don de Noon wrote that episode about the Fox
Speaker 4: psychic and it's kind of like a little bit of
Speaker 4: family plot and a little bit of Nightmare Alley. So
Speaker 4: and sometimes I would like even tell the directors, like
Speaker 4: when Ted was directing Marishka for nine to one one
Speaker 4: where she won the Emmy.
Speaker 6: And the Golden Globe.
Speaker 4: Mrscer calls me to the sense she says, Neil, It's
Speaker 4: like Ted's like, I don't know what he's doing. He's
Speaker 4: shooting in my mouth and a close up and my
Speaker 4: eye and a close up, and I said, go for it,
Speaker 4: you'll win it.
Speaker 6: She did. Also I dressed her up in a very
Speaker 6: fancy cocktail.
Speaker 2: I want to have favorite things we like. If Marishka's
Speaker 2: in address, we know shit's about.
Speaker 3: To go down.
Speaker 6: Do you know why that I did it?
Speaker 3: I did read about it. Is it be a nod
Speaker 3: to like Er and George Clooney?
Speaker 6: Or am I a lot to Clooney?
Speaker 4: Where I wrote the first season where he's in a
Speaker 4: big fight over Juliana and it's Christmas episode and he's
Speaker 4: in a tuxedo and people were saying, oh.
Speaker 6: My god, he's so handsome in that tuxedo.
Speaker 4: And it's like, so I drew the lucky straw in
Speaker 4: your two, And I'm like, can I put Georgie in
Speaker 4: a textedo and have him like be a hero? A
Speaker 4: reluctant hero? So I said, okay, I'm going to send
Speaker 4: him with Andrea Parker to the opera. But she never
Speaker 4: gets there with him, and the kid is in the
Speaker 4: tunnel and he's trapped and the water's rising, and then
Speaker 4: Clooney has to go take him on a plane and
Speaker 4: chopper and make a decision.
Speaker 6: And that's really precient.
Speaker 4: I didn't know, but we're broadcasting from the plane the
Speaker 4: news Guy, which now has happened because of the changes
Speaker 4: in technology, and Tony Edwards and Juliana are like at
Speaker 4: the desk and they look up at the TV and
Speaker 4: they see Clooney there.
Speaker 6: So that was where Clooney saves the kid and he
Speaker 6: raises him up. It's this iconic kind of yep.
Speaker 3: I remember it, So I thought, well.
Speaker 4: Clooney got nominated for an Emmy, so did I for
Speaker 4: writing it.
Speaker 6: We didn't win, but.
Speaker 4: I said to Ted what can we do for Marishka
Speaker 4: that is so different? And Ted said, well, I said,
Speaker 4: have you've done anything that's like that? You just that's
Speaker 4: sticks with me and goes, well, you should see this
Speaker 4: television movie I did with Ingrid Bergmann called The Human Voice,
Speaker 4: where it's only Ingrid Bergmann kind of losing her mind
Speaker 4: on the phone. So then I said, oh, what if
Speaker 4: we put Marishka in a cocktail dress that's super sexy,
Speaker 4: like we did with Cloning, and we put her on
Speaker 4: the phone, but this is with a little girl who's trapped,
Speaker 4: and for three acts, Marishka is stuck in a room
Speaker 4: and we have a clock ticking and she's going to
Speaker 4: lose the phone charge. I said to Ted, watch Hitchcock's Marnie.
Speaker 4: There's a scene with Tippy Hedron and Sean Connery. Diane
Speaker 4: Baker is like one of my closest friends.
Speaker 6: She's in it.
Speaker 4: She did spu of course, and I said, see these
Speaker 4: jump cuts of Sean Connery's eyes and mouth and lips
Speaker 4: and Tippy Hedron's and I said, it'd be inspired by that.
Speaker 4: And then go to the man who Knew too Much
Speaker 4: in the scene with Doris Day in the concert hall
Speaker 4: when Hitchcock is panning faster and faster and faster across
Speaker 4: the music until the day New Mall, when the symbols
Speaker 4: are going to crash and the man's going to get shot.
Speaker 4: I said, use that element for the clock ticking with
Speaker 4: the wonderful actor from Gray's who's been the doctor for
Speaker 4: years and she's won the Emmy. Chandra, she'll be the
Speaker 4: FBI agent. She said she would do it. So if
Speaker 4: you see those scenes and you know about those moments
Speaker 4: in Hitchcock, you can see where Ted was inspired. So
Speaker 4: I said, you don't see on TV someone's just just
Speaker 4: their mouth, right, I said, I want the screen to
Speaker 4: be filled with justin Mrishka's mouth, singing child's nursery rhyme
Speaker 4: in Spanish.
Speaker 6: I want to just see her eye almost tearing up. Yeah,
Speaker 6: so your golden here.
Speaker 3: Man, like not for nothing.
Speaker 1: It's like this gorgeous woman who's always in a mock
Speaker 1: turtleneck or like a blazer.
Speaker 3: Let's get her in a hot dress once.
Speaker 6: In a while, like like what in the hell are
Speaker 6: you putting her in that transfer?
Speaker 4: The whole point is because she's going on on a
Speaker 4: very hot day and he goes, what an eight hundred
Speaker 4: dollars hugo bob? He said, it's TV, And so I said,
Speaker 4: we have to have her look gorgeous.
Speaker 6: I said, to you pick out what you want to
Speaker 6: wear and we're going to give it to you.
Speaker 3: Do you have a favorite Marishka haircut? You can identify
Speaker 3: it by season?
Speaker 6: Exactly.
Speaker 4: One time she called me and she said, I have
Speaker 4: to tell you something, and I was like, what, what's wrong?
Speaker 4: She goes, I got my haircut a little. I was like, oh,
Speaker 4: that's what a season?
Speaker 6: Is that three?
Speaker 3: Or oh they're really really short? Exactly all right.
Speaker 1: That brings us to our post mortem. That interview was
Speaker 1: thrilling and we're definitely.
Speaker 3: Going to have him back. He has so much information.
Speaker 3: I want him to be a regular. I want him
Speaker 3: ya or he's going to be one of our okps
Speaker 3: to borrow from the Jay Train podcas as original key player. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I was like, no one knows what OKP means. Yeah,
Speaker 3: he told me I'm an OKAP and I've been on
Speaker 3: it twice. I'm like, I don't know if I am.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 2: I was livid when you told me because I felt
Speaker 2: like I worked very hard to become that and I
Speaker 2: would but whatever.
Speaker 3: So what did we learn from today's episode?
Speaker 1: I mean, kids, kids can't be diagnosed as psychopaths, but
Speaker 1: kids can have some fucked up personality disorders like that
Speaker 1: little hell Little Jake was nobody to fuck with, especially
Speaker 1: if you haven't done all your pull ups at Bratt
Speaker 1: Camp or whatever you're at.
Speaker 2: I would say, don't be a vigilante too. I know that,
Speaker 2: but like, don't be a vigilante.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think it's okay to be, like to protest, to
Speaker 1: be part of like police accountability groups, but like, don't
Speaker 1: get a scanner and show show up at some guy's
Speaker 1: house and beat up who you think is about aphile
Speaker 1: like stop.
Speaker 2: Like, if you're a parent, stop being blinded by the
Speaker 2: love of your child and always be suspicious that they
Speaker 2: are one one crime away from Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I also learned that Comma Glacklin looks great in Shades
Speaker 1: of Green.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was thinking of the other vigilante. But I guess
Speaker 2: he's a vigilante too. Yeah, vigilantes everywhere in this epience. Yeah, well,
Speaker 2: he kind of took justice into his own hands.
Speaker 3: I like that he got away with it.
Speaker 2: It is fucked up, but I'm just like, okay, Yeah,
Speaker 2: your kid got killed.
Speaker 3: I guess you got to kill this kid. I'm okay
Speaker 3: with it. Oh, and keep an eye on your kids
Speaker 3: at a Chuck E Cheese. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Like I said, I don't think that Chuck E Cheese
Speaker 1: is really gonna let me know if you think Chuck
Speaker 1: E Cheese is gonna survive past the pandemic.
Speaker 3: But I don't know about ball pits and all that. Now.
Speaker 2: Also, if you're a judge, can you take a day
Speaker 2: before you move a criminal case down to family court?
Speaker 2: This is take a judgees listening, Take a day and
Speaker 2: watch out, because Olivia Benson will remember the Rocks that
Speaker 2: are in your yard.
Speaker 3: So don't use pebbles from your own yard. You will
Speaker 3: get caught if you're gonna use.
Speaker 2: Someone actually commented on our instrum or sent us a
Speaker 2: message like can you stop giving people better advice on
Speaker 2: how to hide bodies?
Speaker 3: Like I don't need more killer, we want them to
Speaker 3: get caught.
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, but sometime, but it's like, yeah, don't
Speaker 2: use things from your own home that are visible to
Speaker 2: murder like they're gonna be like.
Speaker 3: A thirteen year old murderer. We can't really expect him
Speaker 3: to hide it. And don't drink soda.
Speaker 2: If they give you a can of soda, don't drink it.
Speaker 3: It's a trick. They don't care if you're thirsty.
Speaker 1: They're gonna use a pencil to pick that baby up.
Speaker 1: Get your prints.
Speaker 5: I think cops have to keep their guns less accessible
Speaker 5: to people when they're Oh yeah, that's true too.
Speaker 3: That's true too.
Speaker 1: People in SVU are constantly pulling cop guns right out
Speaker 1: of the whole ster, like there's no snaps, no no guards.
Speaker 2: Speaking of I just saw something on the internet and
Speaker 2: it was a guy that keeps hot sauce and a
Speaker 2: whole ster on his belt, and I like him keep
Speaker 2: that button loose.
Speaker 1: All right, A perfect segue into what would Sister Peg Do? Okay,
Speaker 1: for today's what would Sister Peg Do, which is our
Speaker 1: weekly segment where we just give you guys a little
Speaker 1: bit more background information or some resource or article or
Speaker 1: organization that you can read or donate to, just to
Speaker 1: flesh out a little bit of the topic of what
Speaker 1: we address today. On the episode today, we talked about
Speaker 1: child psychopathy and I read a really really interesting article
Speaker 1: in the Atlantic a few years back that I would
Speaker 1: like to direct your attention to, called When Your Child
Speaker 1: Is a Psychopath. This story is by Barbara Bradley Haggarty
Speaker 1: and it'll be linked in our show notes, and it's
Speaker 1: just a very interesting, very interesting article. So I wanted
Speaker 1: to give you guys a little bit of extra info
Speaker 1: on that.
Speaker 2: And also if you are in a giving mood, you know,
Speaker 2: for Lent or something. We have show notes that have
Speaker 2: all the other charities and organizations we've highlighted for like
Speaker 2: sixteen episodes, so you know, if you've got a tax refund,
Speaker 2: check on into our resources.
Speaker 1: Look at this.
Speaker 3: Jew know one about Lent. I don't know when Lent
Speaker 3: is damn girl. Well, it's the fish Sandwich season. You
Speaker 3: know my eye on that. Does McDonald's bring back the
Speaker 3: file of fish during lund Well, they.
Speaker 2: Always have it, but on Fridays you can get like
Speaker 2: two for four or something like that.
Speaker 3: Got it, Got it big. I'm very into advertising big
Speaker 3: ups to Christianity from McDonald's. Okay, let's see.
Speaker 1: Next week's episode is going to be Institutional Fail from
Speaker 1: season seventeen. That's episode four, And if you don't have
Speaker 1: a chance to write that down, please know that we
Speaker 1: always post it on our Instagram. Every Thursday, you get
Speaker 1: your homework posts that tells you what next week's episode
Speaker 1: will be, and just.
Speaker 3: That by I. I don't know whether you're getting your
Speaker 3: episodes on Peacock.
Speaker 1: Or Hulu or wherever they are available, but Hulu I
Speaker 1: think might have this listed as episode three. You just
Speaker 1: make sure you're watching Institutional Fail, which we believe is
Speaker 1: truly episode four, but however they label it.
Speaker 2: Wherever there's a thumbnail of Whoopie Goldberg, you know you're
Speaker 2: in the right place.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll see you guys next week.
Speaker 3: Bye bye bye. That's messed up as an exactly right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover. Shoot us an email
Speaker 1: at That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
Speaker 2: and on Twitter at Messed Up Pod, and follow us
Speaker 2: personally at Karaklank and at glitter Cheese.
Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to SBU super fan and our
Speaker 2: incredible producer, Hannah Kyle Kraton, and to.
Speaker 1: Our sound engineer and personal hero Analis Nilsson, and to
Speaker 1: Henry Koperski for our theme song, to Carly Jeen Andrews
Speaker 1: for our artwork. Thanks to our executive producers Georgia Hardstar,
Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.
Speaker 2: Listen, subscribe, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher,
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're an advertiser
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Speaker 2: Done