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Speaker 1: It's time to get inside the Giants huddle on Giants

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Speaker 1: dot Com.

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Speaker 2: We go here, we go on the Giants Mobile.

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Speaker 1: Let him, Let's Go, part of the Giants podcast Network.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to another episode of the Giants Huttle Podcast. My

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Speaker 3: name is John Schmelk. It's all brought to you by Citizens,

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Speaker 3: the official bank of the New York Football Giants. This

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Speaker 3: is also going to appear on our Draft season podcast,

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Speaker 3: because well, it's about scouting, and who better to talk

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Speaker 3: about it than one of the guys that's teaching the

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Speaker 3: next generation of scouts. He's Dan Hattman. This is the

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Speaker 3: second time he's joined us on our program. He's a

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Speaker 3: director of scouting Development at the Scouting Academy Dan John

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Speaker 3: Smelk here in his other for New Jersey getting ready

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Speaker 3: for the start of training camp. This will be airing

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Speaker 3: the second week of training camp as the college football

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Speaker 3: season is starting and NFL teams are evaluating the people

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Speaker 3: in camp. I figured this is the best time to

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Speaker 3: kind of do a scouting one O one type episode,

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Speaker 3: and who better to talk about it than you?

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Speaker 1: How are you?

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Speaker 2: Man?

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Speaker 1: It's good to see your book, I see your face

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Speaker 1: and hear your voice.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing great. I appreciate you having me. This is

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Speaker 2: a great time of the year, always gonna have football

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Speaker 2: back and to see guys hit the field and let

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Speaker 2: the process begin all over again.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: So let's kind of set the base here, Dan, we

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Speaker 3: have about forty minutes here to kind of talk about scouting,

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Speaker 3: talk about the scouting academy, what you do, what your

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Speaker 3: background is, so people understand where you're coming from with

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Speaker 3: all this.

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Speaker 2: So the Giants were my first NFL club. I started

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Speaker 2: as a student at University of Albany. We did training

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Speaker 2: camp and I was able to work my student assistant

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Speaker 2: time there and do an opportunity with the Giants and

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Speaker 2: kind of launched it from there. I worked for the

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Speaker 2: Giants and one of the Jets and the Eagles, that

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Speaker 2: worked for two different college programs and that time as

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Speaker 2: a coach, and all of it kind of led me this.

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Speaker 2: Just understand there's a chicken and eggy problem in football, right.

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Speaker 2: Teams wanted people that knew what to do, but the

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Speaker 2: only place to learn what to do is with the team,

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Speaker 2: and that doesn't really fit the needs of folks that

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Speaker 2: are aspiring to It doesn't fit the team's needs because

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Speaker 2: they need a robust candidate base as well. So we

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Speaker 2: plugged in nine years ago to try to address that,

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Speaker 2: to take the fundamentals of the evaluation process, bring that

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Speaker 2: to the public, let them kind of self select if

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Speaker 2: they're interested, let them level up, and then bring those

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Speaker 2: folks back to the teams and say, hey, here's some

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Speaker 2: excellent folks for you guys to consider. That all kind

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Speaker 2: of stemed off the idea that regardless of which team

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Speaker 2: I had worked for, and I mentioned the three on

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Speaker 2: the NFL side, they all had a different type of

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Speaker 2: receiver that they were looking for, but at the receiver position,

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Speaker 2: we were all tasked with studying how they got off

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Speaker 2: the line of scrimmage right, how they run around, how

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Speaker 2: they catch the ball. So there are fundamentals that go

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Speaker 2: underneath the position that regardless of what style right, what

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Speaker 2: end product of receiver you like, we can still look

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Speaker 2: at those bones, those structures, those traits along the way

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Speaker 2: and get an understanding of the position. And so that's

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Speaker 2: what we try to bring to folks and help them

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Speaker 2: level up that way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's great.

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Speaker 3: So let's start with this part for us before and

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Speaker 3: then we're going to kind of jump position by position

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Speaker 3: here for what you look at and how you do

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Speaker 3: the process. We talk about grading players. I think people

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Speaker 3: think of how you crate on a test, right, So

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Speaker 3: based on the number of questions you get right, you

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Speaker 3: add up and you get higher grade, and you get

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Speaker 3: a higher grade.

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Speaker 1: So the best you do, you get a better grade.

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Speaker 3: And while the basic concept better player, better grade does

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Speaker 3: apply here, that's not generally how grading systems work in

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Speaker 3: the NFL, where kind of depending on the numerical system,

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Speaker 3: and all teams do it a little bit differently. One

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Speaker 3: grade will mean, you know, future Pro Bowl, or one

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Speaker 3: will be mean maybe future backups. So can you just

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Speaker 3: explain to me what these grades mean and how as

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Speaker 3: a scout you put them together when you're following your reports.

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Speaker 2: Sure. So there's a few structures and grading scales that

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Speaker 2: exist on the NFL, and there's derivations that again based

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Speaker 2: in the decision maker, but a lot of it stems

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Speaker 2: from framework that came from Gilbray and the Cowboys system,

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Speaker 2: or came from Vocal Kilroy and what happened in New

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Speaker 2: England and kind of that would flow through the Giants

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Speaker 2: and got built up in a lot of ways there.

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Speaker 2: And so the Giant structure and that stems in a

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Speaker 2: Blessedos system and I can talk a bit about that

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Speaker 2: or what Dallas and when up kind of taken over

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Speaker 2: in an NFS or National Football scouting and it's come

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Speaker 2: a long way, but it's kind of come back down

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Speaker 2: to two main systems today, which is kind of a

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Speaker 2: off the Ron Wolf tree or off the Belichick tree.

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Speaker 2: A lot of folks either fit one camp or the other,

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Speaker 2: and one's based more on on round, on a kind

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Speaker 2: of final value of a player, and the New England

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Speaker 2: system is based more on the role, what are they

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Speaker 2: going to do and then let the market kind of

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Speaker 2: dictate the value from there. But in both systems of

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Speaker 2: scouts can be tasked with some written description of what

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Speaker 2: does this guy mean to our roster? Right? What are

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Speaker 2: things that we can expect them to do? Should we

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Speaker 2: expect them to be on in a an immediate starter?

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Speaker 2: Do we accept and be on and develop into that?

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Speaker 2: Do we expect them to be on our roster in

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Speaker 2: a specific role? Is he part of a rotation? Is

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Speaker 2: this a backup that brings quality depth? Is this a veteran?

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Speaker 2: Is this an ascending player a declining player? So we

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Speaker 2: end up taking a large amount of information and trying

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Speaker 2: to distill it back down into one of those profiles,

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Speaker 2: and then that ultimately determines a grade a value based

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Speaker 2: on whatever system that team subscribes to.

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Speaker 3: All right, So just to just to kind of nail

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Speaker 3: in on that my understanding by what you just described,

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Speaker 3: some teams will great guys, all right, first round pick,

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Speaker 3: late first round, early second round, and that's kind of

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Speaker 3: how they do it, right, and that'll be consistent year

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Speaker 3: to year. Then the other side, and I imagine this

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Speaker 3: is probably the side that Joe Shane comes from, right,

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Speaker 3: because he was from the Parcels and Miami and that

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Speaker 3: comes from the Belichick and that's from that side.

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Speaker 1: Of the family.

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Speaker 3: You're gonna give a guy a new miracle grade and

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Speaker 3: that's gonna be all right, Well, we think he's gonna

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Speaker 3: be a future you know, let's say future average starter

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Speaker 3: in the league. Right, But then depending on the draft year,

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Speaker 3: one year, that might be the twenty fifth best player

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Speaker 3: in the draft. The next year that might be the

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Speaker 3: forty six best player in the draft.

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Speaker 1: Correct.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah, so that first camp, I mean, even when

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Speaker 2: you put around on, it's still gonna happen. Description of course,

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Speaker 2: you know this is a guy that's gonna be an

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Speaker 2: immediate impact starter that kind of stuff. The more you know,

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Speaker 2: again to use the language New England style system, because

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Speaker 2: there's so many disciples of that who've gone off and

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Speaker 2: are running programs around the league. A lot of that's

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Speaker 2: just based on this is going to be our third

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Speaker 2: corner who's also going to be on coverage on kickoff

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Speaker 2: or what have you. And it's very now focused in

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Speaker 2: like who are they better than now? Who are they

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Speaker 2: worse than now? Literally where do they slatin or existing roster?

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Speaker 2: And then we can talk a little bit about the future,

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Speaker 2: but not a ton whereas the other side it's going

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Speaker 2: to have more than two to three year run of

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Speaker 2: if they get coached and if we hit upside, what

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Speaker 2: may they be. So I think it kind of splits

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Speaker 2: in a little more of now versus later in the

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Speaker 2: thought process.

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Speaker 3: It's funny you actually took my follow up right in

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Speaker 3: my mouth here, So my question was going to be asked,

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Speaker 3: then are there different like levels within the tiers and

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Speaker 3: the grades right where you're like, well, you know, this

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Speaker 3: guy maybe only started playing football as a junior in

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Speaker 3: high school, right, so we think he has more room

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Speaker 3: to grow. Maybe better athletic testing, so more upside. Well

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Speaker 3: maybe so someone else always been playing the position this

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Speaker 3: whole life. He doesn't test very well, so he might

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Speaker 3: be a finished product. How does that get baked into

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Speaker 3: when you're putting together that evaluation number or is that

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Speaker 3: just more in the description when you read it.

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Speaker 2: That's going to get baked in through the whole process. Ultimately,

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Speaker 2: your organization has to set out some understanding of where

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Speaker 2: we think we are. Are we going to be a

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Speaker 2: utilization program? Are we going to be a development program?

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Speaker 2: And that can vary by position, right. I remember talking

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Speaker 2: to a team a couple of years ago, and their

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Speaker 2: receiver coach was very much an x's and o's. He

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Speaker 2: could install the system, he could bring the players to

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Speaker 2: the understanding of where they needed to be at a

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Speaker 2: certain time and how the players were going to get called.

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Speaker 2: But that guy was an offensive line coach by trade.

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Speaker 2: He was in that role because he was a very

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Speaker 2: trusted advisor in the game planning process to the head

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Speaker 2: coach right kind of his right hand in those situations.

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Speaker 2: But again not going to teach the player necessarily how

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Speaker 2: to do it that well, what to do right, and

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Speaker 2: that same team. Their offensive line coach had come out

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Speaker 2: of the college system. He'd been there for fifteen years,

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Speaker 2: developing lumps of clay, so to speak, right, and so

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Speaker 2: he had a long history of taking traits and turning

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Speaker 2: it into a player, teaching them how to do it,

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Speaker 2: not just what to do. So we talk about utilization

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Speaker 2: versus development. That's really what it comes down to. Are

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Speaker 2: you gonna teach them what to do or how to

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Speaker 2: do it? And obviously if a coach can do both,

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Speaker 2: that's great, But a lot of things, a lot of

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Speaker 2: the timing and what we need back from the player

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Speaker 2: is more immediate. Now we don't have these two to

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Speaker 2: three year runways and a lot of cases, so what

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Speaker 2: are we getting out of the first nine months of

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Speaker 2: the guy? Eighteen's kind of by eighteen months, we're almost

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Speaker 2: always talking about, well, do we like him or not? Right,

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Speaker 2: this could be coaches, GMS, players, whatever. Eighteen months in

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Speaker 2: were we pretty much moved on from development into what

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Speaker 2: are we getting from them? So the timelines have condensed

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Speaker 2: in a large way.

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Speaker 3: So you're looking at two seasons, right, You're gonna have

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Speaker 3: a pretty good feel for this player after two seasons.

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Speaker 1: The barring of course there's no injuries or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I wouldn't say you have a good feel,

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Speaker 2: but I think the importance of being able to answer

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Speaker 2: what do we think we're getting comes out at that

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Speaker 2: point for some players. You mentioned the idea of a

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Speaker 2: guy that's had a lot of time in a position

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Speaker 2: or a lot of time playing the game versus a

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Speaker 2: guy that hasn't remember hearing this in the process. A

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Speaker 2: couple of years ago, when it was the Justin Fields

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Speaker 2: Trey Lance year, right, in a conversation that came up

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Speaker 2: that I was a part of, was Justin Fields had

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Speaker 2: been part of all the Elite eleven camps, right, and

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Speaker 2: all the different training programs, and he had been at

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Speaker 2: Old House date he need Ben at Georgian but in

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Speaker 2: every developmental thing. And then you got a guy Trey Lance,

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Speaker 2: who's talking to throw of the fullback in the flat

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Speaker 2: because North Dakota State wants to run the ball, you know,

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Speaker 2: and he's missing he missed the COVID year only had

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Speaker 2: the one game, all this other stuff that went into it.

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Speaker 2: And so the conversation was, if both guys are producing

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Speaker 2: in a similar way right now, right, and so the

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Speaker 2: old two guys run to first base, they get there

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Speaker 2: at the same time. One has bad technique, one has

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Speaker 2: great technique. Which one do you want? Well, I want

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Speaker 2: the guy with bad technique because if I coach him up,

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Speaker 2: he's gonna beat the other guy. And so this person

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Speaker 2: was articulated like I would rather have Trey Lance because

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Speaker 2: he hasn't been developed the same way. So if they're

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Speaker 2: presenting similarly, now on the guy that I think has

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Speaker 2: higher upside than the other guy. You know, obviously we'll

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Speaker 2: see if that bears out this season. But that becomes

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Speaker 2: part of the thought process. It's not just where are

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Speaker 2: they at, but a lot of times how they've been

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Speaker 2: brought to that point so that you can try to

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Speaker 2: predict what that future may be. Big. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Reminds me of the Sam Darnold year too.

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Speaker 3: Right, a guy he was a linebacker in high school

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Speaker 3: if I remember correctly, right, and he was.

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Speaker 2: Again, I hadn't played quarterback much.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So it's the same type of deal.

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Speaker 3: All right, So let's let's jump the quarterback here, and

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Speaker 3: then we can always jump back to some general things

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Speaker 3: as we go along. As the quarterback as has changed

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Speaker 3: your dan, how have how you have taught scouting, the

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Speaker 3: position change, and I'll throw a couple things at you. You

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Speaker 3: can take it whatever direction you want. More importance of

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Speaker 3: the athleticism, right, we saw were Daniel Jones last year,

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Speaker 3: like running was such a huge part of his success,

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Speaker 3: throwing the fact that NFL offenses now look a little

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Speaker 3: bit more like college offenses, depending on what offenses you're

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Speaker 3: talking about. So, how has that changed? And what to

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Speaker 3: you now the most important traits that you're looking for

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Speaker 3: out of that quarterback spot. Some things that you can

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Speaker 3: contextualize in numbers, and maybe some things that you can't.

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Speaker 2: So I'd start by saying that we still look at

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Speaker 2: the same things we used to look at. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: that we were ignoring if a quarterback could move. The

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Speaker 2: priority of how much they could move has really shifted.

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Speaker 2: I get this question a lot on running backs in

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Speaker 2: the passing game, right, How have you would change running

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Speaker 2: backs in the modern We always looked at they could

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Speaker 2: run around to catch the ball, just like we've always

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Speaker 2: looked at a quarterback could extend plays. But what we

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Speaker 2: need from that has changed. And then you mentioned how

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Speaker 2: the systems are running college, how the systems are run

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Speaker 2: in the NFL. I think some of the floor of

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Speaker 2: processing has come down as teams have worked to take

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Speaker 2: some of that ownership on them as coaches to make

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Speaker 2: some of those things more simple, so then the quarterback

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Speaker 2: can go execute at least in those first couple of years.

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Speaker 2: It may not be the entire tenure of that player's career,

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Speaker 2: but in those first couple of transition years, coaching taking

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Speaker 2: more ownership of the decision making process. So I think

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Speaker 2: some of the floor of that has come down, while

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Speaker 2: the floor of what you need in terms of extending

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Speaker 2: plays in or out of the pocket has come up.

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Speaker 2: Coach Steve Fairchild said it this way. I think it's

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Speaker 2: a pretty quality way to sum it all up. Quarterback

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Speaker 2: play is going to break down into kind of three buckets,

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Speaker 2: all equal about a third of the play stay on

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Speaker 2: structure right. What was called in design ends up happening. Protection, holds,

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Speaker 2: receivers run. You get to do your job about a

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Speaker 2: third of the plays right, the defense is going to

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Speaker 2: do something that's going to take you off schedule, but

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Speaker 2: you can still remain on structure. One guy penetrates, I

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Speaker 2: got to make a little bit of move in the pocket. Right.

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Speaker 2: One of my receivers sets a difference in the cover.

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Speaker 2: She's got to adjust a route, and so we've got

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Speaker 2: to move it a little bit, but we can still

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Speaker 2: stay in the same script. We just got to change

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Speaker 2: the timeline of it. And then about a third of

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Speaker 2: the plays the play doesn't work, like something completely broke

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Speaker 2: down our guy, there guy something, and now we've got

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Speaker 2: to move things on the fly. And so you'd like

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Speaker 2: a quarterback who has a way of solving problems in

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Speaker 2: all three of those buckets. It's really hard to have

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Speaker 2: an entire third of the game where you're going out

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Speaker 2: and this guy can do that. And so what they

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Speaker 2: have to do can vary. Whether there's different ways guys

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Speaker 2: can solve problems, but they have to have a solution.

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Speaker 2: Like if you were going to be a statue quarterback,

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Speaker 2: you better be really good at anticipation, right, subtle movements

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Speaker 2: in the pocket. We always talk about Brady right, it

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Speaker 2: was the subtle movements in the pocket.

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Speaker 1: Is Joe Burrow is the same way? Right? Now?

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Speaker 3: Was that Joe Burrows the same way? He's not sup

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Speaker 3: bad like, but he moves in the pocket tremendous.

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Speaker 2: Does a great job about finding space in the pocket

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Speaker 2: to keep the play on script versus watching a Patrick

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Speaker 2: Mahomes who might completely depart the pocket to find a

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Speaker 2: new patch of grass to then set up and make

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Speaker 2: the playwork. They both solve the problems, right Burrow Mahomes

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Speaker 2: doing great jobs, but they solve it different ways. So

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Speaker 2: I think what becomes challenging for us the evaluators is

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Speaker 2: to not get beholden to one way to solve the

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Speaker 2: problem and to be able to look at a player

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Speaker 2: and say, what do they do to solve the problem?

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Speaker 2: They have any way of solving it? And then does

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Speaker 2: that give us that.

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Speaker 4: You're ready for a change? Pay Day comes early with citizens,

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Speaker 4: So go to that retreat, knew you moves to the country.

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Speaker 4: Now you're raising goats and launching a lifestyle brand? Are

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Speaker 4: you ready for all that life brings?

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Speaker 3: The one thing dan to me that's most important for

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Speaker 3: evaluating a quarterback, and I think as someone that did

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Speaker 3: not grow up in coaching or playing and also doesn't

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Speaker 3: you know, know what offense the college is running.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's hard to do. And that's how well does

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Speaker 1: the quarterback see things?

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Speaker 3: And how much does the game slow down for them

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Speaker 3: when they're evaluating what they're seeing Right now? Kevin Gilbride's

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Speaker 3: always said this to me that you know, you could

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Speaker 3: quarterback and be super accurate and you have the best arm,

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Speaker 3: but if you can't see what the defense is doing,

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Speaker 3: slow the game down, the throw out to the right guy.

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Speaker 1: None of the other stuff really matters. You know, that's

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Speaker 1: really important.

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Speaker 3: So as a scout and you don't know what the

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Speaker 3: design of the college offense is necessarily when I'm watching

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Speaker 3: the tape, how would you suggest to someone like me

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Speaker 3: who's more of a layman trying to do this figuring

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Speaker 3: out how well the quarterback sees the field anticipation and

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Speaker 3: slows the game down, which I think something you have

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Speaker 3: to do well going from college to the pros if

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Speaker 3: you want to succeed.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the challenges we all face, and

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Speaker 2: whether you're just entering it, whether you've been in it

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Speaker 2: for a long time, coaches are spending all of their

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Speaker 2: time in this cat and mouse chess game with each other, right,

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Speaker 2: consistently evolving and spending We always talk about coaches hours

356
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Speaker 2: in the office, Right, we know they're spending a lot

357
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Speaker 2: of hours. They are spending all of those hours on

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Speaker 2: that process. They are moving, they are shifting, they are adapting.

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Speaker 2: They are not a static thing. The evaluation community does

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Speaker 2: not spend all of our time studying coaching. We are

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Speaker 2: not developing, We are not chasing that. So we spend

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Speaker 2: a portion, Right, we should all be spending some portion

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Speaker 2: of our time trying to understand scheme, but we're not

364
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Speaker 2: going to spend all of our time doing it, so

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Speaker 2: we will we will never have the understanding that they

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Speaker 2: have from that standpoint, right, And so that becomes a

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Speaker 2: challenge in the evaluation process is whatever the offenses are

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Speaker 2: doing now, they're not going to do that in two years, Right,

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Speaker 2: They're going to have to continue to move and adapt.

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Speaker 2: So whatever we come to understand about what this coach

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Speaker 2: is doing this year, go look at their playbook in

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Speaker 2: two years. They'll have some similarities, but they won't be

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Speaker 2: a static thing. They'll they'll move, they'll shift. So on

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Speaker 2: an individual play, I would agree, we're never going to

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Speaker 2: know what exactly they were taught that particular game. Right,

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Speaker 2: we can see the same three man passing concept and

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Speaker 2: this week we're going to read it a little different

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Speaker 2: than we read it last week. Right, same three guys,

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Speaker 2: same three routes, and last week we ran you know,

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Speaker 2: we read the inside route, then when the outside route

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Speaker 2: that we came down to the flat. This week we're

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Speaker 2: going to read the flat to the inside of the outside.

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Speaker 2: Like it's all with triangle based in a lot of

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Speaker 2: those things, but which one in which order is a variant.

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Speaker 2: So what you have to do is you have to

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Speaker 2: trend it over time. Right, We're not watching one play,

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Speaker 2: We're not watching one game. We're watching a series of

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Speaker 2: games quarterbacks usually seven to nine plus exposure over multiple seasons,

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Speaker 2: and you have to see over that time, does this

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Speaker 2: player again put the ball into good positions or do

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Speaker 2: they not right? And so it's that larger exposure to

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Speaker 2: them that's going to walk us to that answer rather

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Speaker 2: than the individual play.

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Speaker 1: And you know, here's a good follow up there. But

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Speaker 1: this is the thing I struggle with. I have limited time.

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to watch you know, in a span of

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Speaker 3: four months, you know, a couple hundred college prospects. We

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Speaker 3: don't have the ability den via PFF and other things

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Speaker 3: to sort plays.

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Speaker 2: Right.

401
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Speaker 3: You don't have to just watch games and wait for

402
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Speaker 3: the receiver's twelve tords. You can just go watch all

403
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Speaker 3: those targets, right. You can pick situations for quarterbacks. I

404
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,640
Speaker 3: want to see third and six plus. Does it vary

405
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Speaker 3: by position or does it make sense that to kind

406
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Speaker 3: of sort plays they get the most out of your time.

407
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Speaker 3: Do you still suggest watching full games for all the positions?

408
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Speaker 3: How would you suggest using some of that new technology

409
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Speaker 3: and the ability to sort plays and pick and choose

410
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Speaker 3: what you watch when you're scouting these players.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you mentioned you know PFF and their relationship there

412
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Speaker 2: with Catapultant Thunder, And there's a group called telemetry as

413
00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,400
Speaker 2: a product negative an excellent tool as well, the filtering

414
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Speaker 2: the efficiencies that we have now. Like when I started

415
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Speaker 2: with the Giants, it was beta tape. Yeah, right, so

416
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Speaker 2: it was us on a machine going reel to reel

417
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Speaker 2: making cutups. If you didn't have the physical tape from

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00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,359
Speaker 2: the dub Center, you weren't watching it. It was definitely

419
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Speaker 2: a different ball game. I still recommend to folks to

420
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Speaker 2: start with a couple of games. There's something about game flow,

421
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,800
Speaker 2: right and watching the good and the bad, back to back,

422
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Speaker 2: watching series all the way through, especially the position like quarterback,

423
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Speaker 2: that becomes important. From that, we should be able to

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Speaker 2: generate questions. Right. To me, good film study is the

425
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,280
Speaker 2: ability to generate interesting questions because the film can't answer everything. Right,

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Speaker 2: If I look and I can see the quarterback did

427
00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,480
Speaker 2: not make a good decision, right, that's just a result.

428
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Speaker 2: I don't know the process that led into that. All

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Speaker 2: that should lead me to is, well, what process led

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Speaker 2: into that? Why do they make that bad decision?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: I want to continue to ask questions of whatever that

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Speaker 2: result is, which is usually going to lead me to

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Speaker 2: the player or their coaches or what have you. So

435
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Speaker 2: you're going to watch those couple of games, you should

436
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:56,760
Speaker 2: be generating those questions, and then you bring that to

437
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Speaker 2: the filtering tool and bring it down. So if I'm like, hey,

438
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,080
Speaker 2: I really like what he does between the twenties kind

439
00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:05,440
Speaker 2: of long yardage when he's got all the options available

440
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,199
Speaker 2: to him. But when it's third and nine and everybody

441
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,280
Speaker 2: in the planet knows what he's gonna do, it doesn't

442
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:10,919
Speaker 2: work that well. At least it didn't look like that

443
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,080
Speaker 2: way in that first couple of games. Now I can

444
00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,879
Speaker 2: go take a season or two worth of third and

445
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,560
Speaker 2: seven plus right and look at all of it. Instead

446
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,679
Speaker 2: of seeing fourteen plays, now I might have sixty. And

447
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,080
Speaker 2: as I increase that sample sides, I can get more

448
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,600
Speaker 2: conviction on where I fall on how he does in

449
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:28,639
Speaker 2: that individual area.

450
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,320
Speaker 3: The John Soda Podcast is brought to you by Citizens,

451
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,360
Speaker 3: the official bank of the New York Giants. From game

452
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:35,560
Speaker 3: day to every day, Citizens is made ready for Giants

453
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:37,840
Speaker 3: fans with insights, guidance and solutions.

454
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,200
Speaker 1: Learn more at citizensbank dot com. Yeah.

455
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:42,760
Speaker 3: I think that's an interesting way to go about it,

456
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,639
Speaker 3: because you're right, and especially for corner like positions like

457
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,920
Speaker 3: cornerback and safety, you can watch one hundred and twenty

458
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,800
Speaker 3: plays in two games and get like six plays the

459
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,080
Speaker 3: guy's doing something. So there are some positions that are

460
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,399
Speaker 3: more frustrating to watch than others. But I guess, you know,

461
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,359
Speaker 3: I guess you're right. Just watching the game flow is

462
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:02,919
Speaker 3: you know, score and time affects how a guy might

463
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,040
Speaker 3: play too right, and then you then kind of narrow

464
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:07,680
Speaker 3: in on what you think your strengths and winknesses and

465
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,680
Speaker 3: you try to increase that sample size based on flow.

466
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,560
Speaker 2: Huh yeah, yeah, And there's there's so much of that

467
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:13,560
Speaker 2: can that can be done.

468
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:13,919
Speaker 1: You know.

469
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,399
Speaker 2: The dB one you brought up is so fascinating because again,

470
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:19,760
Speaker 2: the point of attack right when they actually interact with

471
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:21,760
Speaker 2: a ball carrier or a ball in the air or

472
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,360
Speaker 2: what have you can be so limited. We've been able

473
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,240
Speaker 2: to filter that for a number of years now. But

474
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,040
Speaker 2: part of that position, right is to take away those options. Right,

475
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,080
Speaker 2: they could do a really good job by not being

476
00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 2: at the point of attack. If I did a job

477
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,120
Speaker 2: and keep them from wanting to put the ball there,

478
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,080
Speaker 2: my production numbers may not be great so.

479
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,640
Speaker 3: Deep safeties especially, right, But if you're there deep, they're

480
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,360
Speaker 3: just not going to throw it at you exactly.

481
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,240
Speaker 2: So one of the things you end up doing in

482
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,520
Speaker 2: these new filtering tools is taking it to particular formations

483
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 2: or things that can be challenging. Like now I can

484
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:52,560
Speaker 2: go look at all the times that they were the

485
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,000
Speaker 2: deep safety over the top of a three x one formation,

486
00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:56,600
Speaker 2: and I want to see how they deal with three

487
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 2: different options, and how they sort that out and how

488
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 2: they relate to that. Those filtering mechanisms are great for that,

489
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:03,920
Speaker 2: and I can get into those different I want to

490
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,359
Speaker 2: see him against twelve personal Let's se him against eleven personnel,

491
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 2: and I can break all that down way faster.

492
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 1: Absolutely, one hundred percent.

493
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,440
Speaker 3: All right, let's jump to a few more positions here, Dan,

494
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,280
Speaker 3: running back, I feel like running back is so much instinctual.

495
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,879
Speaker 3: The testing matters, and I think testing does you know,

496
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,919
Speaker 3: indicate you know, if you look at just the numbers,

497
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:22,720
Speaker 3: guys that run under a certain amount of a much

498
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,520
Speaker 3: higher rate of success. But how about the instinctual stuff,

499
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:29,160
Speaker 3: feel finding the whole, patience to the whole. I imagine that's

500
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:30,680
Speaker 3: just something you have to watch and you just kind

501
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:32,280
Speaker 3: of have to get a feeling about. Right, there's really

502
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 3: is there really a good way to even with all

503
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,560
Speaker 3: the new you know, player speed stuff and analytics, is

504
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,919
Speaker 3: there a way to really put some of that on

505
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,960
Speaker 3: paper or is that just a feel thing watching the guy?

506
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 2: I don't I haven't seen anything yet from kind of

507
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:48,640
Speaker 2: in the next gen stat or and in the modeling

508
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:53,200
Speaker 2: stuff that gets into how a runner deals with certain situations,

509
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 2: Like we've done it on a play call, right, we

510
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 2: can do modeling based on inside zone or perceived outside zone,

511
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 2: and they can take and you build a definition in

512
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 2: the computer about, hey, this is what outside zone should

513
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 2: look like, and if the lineman do this to a

514
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:06,880
Speaker 2: certain percentage, then we're going to call it outside zone.

515
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,159
Speaker 2: But even if you take all the plays that are

516
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 2: outside zone, what actually happens, Like how many times does

517
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 2: your playside guard, get the reach or how many times

518
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,280
Speaker 2: was there penetration that you had to deal with or

519
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 2: what have you. All of that change is a great deal,

520
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 2: and so I don't think we've quite gotten there yet.

521
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 2: There's a lot of smart minds working on it. We'll

522
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 2: see how that continues to develop. But ultimately you brought

523
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,919
Speaker 2: up a great point running back, like the athletic floor, Right,

524
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,880
Speaker 2: we reach that pretty quickly. We eliminate those who don't

525
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 2: have that very very quickly in the process, and so

526
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,119
Speaker 2: the guys that reach an NFL level are all going

527
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 2: to be very high end athletes. Right, We're going to

528
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 2: again already eliminate those that can't. The difference between those

529
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,919
Speaker 2: that then stick and produce and then that those that

530
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 2: don't is again the mental part. I think at a

531
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 2: lot of positions, quarterback, weh you talk about running back

532
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 2: now again, the athletic ability sets the floor, it's the

533
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,080
Speaker 2: mental that sets the ceiling, and that's really where a

534
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 2: player can take off and take it to a whole

535
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,919
Speaker 2: new level. So our ability to figure out what a

536
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 2: running back is, seeing how they're making reads and how

537
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 2: they're stacking that information. You brought up pace and tempo.

538
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 2: You know, do you know when to stay with your block,

539
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 2: when to come off your block? Do you know how

540
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,879
Speaker 2: your linemen want to do certain things? Do you know

541
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,639
Speaker 2: how to manipulate a linebacker to create an opening? Like

542
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:24,920
Speaker 2: you know, I might want to take the linebacker and

543
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 2: bring them over to the place side, make them commit

544
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 2: to that because I know I'm going to cut back.

545
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 2: I have an understanding. And there's then a balance between

546
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 2: what did you learn in the classroom, right, and what

547
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 2: did you learn in your film study and what did

548
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 2: you practice? And then what are your eyes taking in

549
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 2: on the field and so you know, to me, the

550
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 2: term instincts is really about anticipation, right, Can you anticipate

551
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 2: something happening before just being able to read and react

552
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 2: to it? And that stacks a lot of different things,

553
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 2: like there are more opportunities at running back than other

554
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 2: positions to be kind of a school yard instinctual player,

555
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 2: but there's still a lot of reads and processing that

556
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,400
Speaker 2: go into it. Like we did a little video breakdown

557
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 2: on our social channels the other day on sequon and

558
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 2: showing different reads and he made on a run like

559
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 2: the athletic parts stood out. I mean, that wasn't hard,

560
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 2: but a couple of things that he did in terms

561
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 2: of reading where his blockers hat or that reading backside flow,

562
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 2: knowing how to come off of that, and it really

563
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 2: makes a big difference in how a running back performs overall.

564
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 3: You know, I think dan wide receiver is a position.

565
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 3: We have been able to put a lot of numbers

566
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 3: on that, right, especially with the Zebra testing, you can

567
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 3: test change of direction in real time. You know, straight

568
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 3: ahead speed in real time. What are some of the

569
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,439
Speaker 3: most important things that you've really zeroed in on? As

570
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 3: I think, quite frankly, wide receiver scouting has become a

571
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 3: lot better and a lot more precise and a lot

572
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 3: more accurate as you've gotten some more of this data

573
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 3: on their spots. What are some of the most important

574
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 3: things to you when you're taking a look at those

575
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 3: guys and you're trying to parse them.

576
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 2: Again, I think we do a good job in eliminating

577
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 2: those that don't have certain ingredients right certain parts to

578
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 2: their game. I think what becomes hard is does the

579
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 2: player know how to string those together in a certain

580
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 2: way to generate a result? Right? You know, there's gonna

581
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 2: be players that have a height or a speed, or

582
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 2: they have a change of direction part, but that in

583
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 2: and of itself, by comparison to their peer, the NFL

584
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: defensive back probably isn't gonna do the job all by itself, right,

585
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,159
Speaker 2: There's not gonna be a ton of guys are just

586
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,679
Speaker 2: gonna purely out athlete an NFL defensive back. Right, So

587
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 2: you're gonna have to stack a mental component and a

588
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 2: technical component and a physical component. And when do you

589
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 2: do that and how do you do that? You know,

590
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 2: being able to use the stem, to use tempo or

591
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,239
Speaker 2: head fakes or angles or get into blind spots. Then

592
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 2: when to apply technique? What techniques? And I got to

593
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 2: go back to the idea of letting the player be

594
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 2: a problem solver, right, Let the player show you how

595
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,719
Speaker 2: they get that done, because you know, I came up

596
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 2: in an era with like the Nkuon Boldens and the

597
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 2: Calvin Johnson's. Well those guys solve problems in a completely

598
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 2: different way, but they both did a great job. Produced

599
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 2: a ton of yards, a ton of points, what have you.

600
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 2: You know, it came to the Giants and we had

601
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 2: you know, Lexico Urus and we had Mario Manningham. They

602
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 2: are guys that produced, but they didn't produce the same

603
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 2: way or for the same reason. So you you have

604
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,439
Speaker 2: to let the players show you that they have a

605
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 2: way of getting that done. But it's more than just

606
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 2: having a raw set of ingredients. It's about how do

607
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 2: they put those together in a meaningful way, you know.

608
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 3: I thought Jamar Chase was an interesting example of this,

609
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 3: right because you watch Jamar Chase, the production was obviously

610
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 3: off the charts, but it's not like he was gaining

611
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 3: six yards of separation on guys he would like. His

612
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 3: body control, which is something that I think is very

613
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 3: difficult to quantify, is something where and Randy Wats was

614
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 3: the same way where they're running full speed and they're

615
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 3: running fast, but they can change direction and as their

616
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 3: body as though they're only going at half speed.

617
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 1: When other guys, if.

618
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 3: They're running full speed and they try to turn to

619
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 3: locate the ball, they're gonna trip, They're gonna lose you know,

620
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 3: their miles per how we're gonna drop. But those guys

621
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 3: just managed to keep running the same speed and it's smooth.

622
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: And again, again, I.

623
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 3: Think those are things you just have to watch, right

624
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 3: because you can't really put numbers on those.

625
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 2: Not yet. Again, I've the things. I wondered if we

626
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 2: could ever put numbers on ten years ago versus what

627
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 2: we're doing today. We'll continue to see how that progresses.

628
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 2: But I think that's going to be a really hard

629
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 2: one to differentiate because seeing if the XY coordinates right,

630
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 2: it's being mapped in the computer, are remaining at the

631
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 2: same speed, the computer can't tell where the shoulders were

632
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 2: or what have you. I know we have it in

633
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 2: both pads, Like technically there's some orientation, but I don't

634
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 2: think that the how accurate that is it gives us

635
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 2: that kind of detail yet, I know I'm talking to

636
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 2: some people about that, Like offensive and defensive linemen. We're

637
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 2: not at a good enough place in terms of shoulder

638
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 2: turn to necessarily get there. We'll see if the technology

639
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 2: can get better. So yeah, right now, you're gonna have

640
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 2: to watch that play out, right, You're going to have

641
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 2: to watch that person can toort their body while at

642
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 2: full speed. You know, almost every NFL receiver can change

643
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 2: directions at a low speed right when they have not

644
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 2: gotten all the way there, and that ends up tring

645
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 2: us up. A lot of times when people come into

646
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 2: the evaluation space, we will see a receiver change directions

647
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 2: and then say, we'll see they can change directions. Well,

648
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 2: they all can when they're not at their MAC speed.

649
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 2: Otherwise we wouldn't leave them at the receiver position. There's

650
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 2: a survivor bias to it. But it's when we get

651
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 2: past that and say, okay, now when you have gotten

652
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 2: to almost or fully to your MAC speed, can you

653
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 2: still do all of these different movement patterns. And that's

654
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 2: a huge differentiator in that population, and.

655
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 3: We're doing we are seeing that now with with with

656
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 3: some of the changing direction metrics, whether or not guys

657
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 3: do maintain their speed on their routes in the changing

658
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 3: direction and some of that. With the Zebra technology and stuff,

659
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 3: they are able to quantify at least some of that.

660
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 3: And that to me, will wide receiver dan very quickly

661
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 3: before we jump to a different spot, changing direction at

662
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 3: top speed. And you know, that's really the name of

663
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 3: the game, right. If you can do that, that's going

664
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 3: to create separation. And in the modern NFL, that's really

665
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 3: the most important thing.

666
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: Right.

667
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 3: We could talk about and we'll get the size in

668
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 3: a second. You could talk about size and stuff, but

669
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 3: separation is what these teams are pretty much looking for.

670
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 2: Right. It has Again, when I came in, it was

671
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 2: size big people beat up a little people. But now

672
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 2: I think we're understanding that if you are of a

673
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 2: smaller frame, but you have these other tools, you can

674
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 2: create dynamic plays and not just necessarily based on size.

675
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 2: I think part of it receiver depends on what's the

676
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 2: style of the route break right. So if we're going

677
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 2: to take a cross or a post to go what

678
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 2: have you, you can run that at your full speed. I

679
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 2: might be changing at a forty five degree angle on

680
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 2: a slant or a post, what have you. But fundamentally

681
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 2: I could carry my entire speed through that. If I

682
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 2: take an in or and out cut a ninety degree turn,

683
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 2: but I speed cut, I do it soft and round again,

684
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 2: I can take that at my basicly my full speed.

685
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 2: If I'm going to take that ninety as a sharp

686
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: turn a complete right angle. If I'm going to do

687
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 2: one hundred and thirty five degrees back on a curl

688
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 2: or a hitch or what have you, those are different

689
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 2: biomechanical systems because the deceleration needed to stop, then change

690
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: directions and re accelerate. I can have a guy that's

691
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 2: a full speed guy. We see tons of six three

692
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: plus guys with four to three speed that run, they accelerate,

693
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 2: they run, it's all there, but it's in the deceleration.

694
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 2: It's it's the be ability to sink and do all

695
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 2: that stuff better than the defensive back. Where it gets hard,

696
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 2: there's a diminishing return on the hype from that standpoint,

697
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 2: right long legs. The physics along alone is gonna usually

698
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 2: slow down that player.

699
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 4: You love turf, you're good at it, so you start

700
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 4: a turf biz business grows, your savings grow, become the

701
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 4: most celebrated name in turfs. Are you ready for all

702
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 4: that life brings?

703
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 3: Is there a weight threshold for wide receivers anymore or

704
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 3: almost at the point where it doesn't matter anymore in.

705
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 2: Terms of the low end?

706
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, In terms of the low end, yeah.

707
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 2: I yeah, there still is. I mean I think once

708
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 2: you start getting under you know, one hundred and eighty

709
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: five pounds, a lot of questions are gonna come up.

710
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 2: I think there's a ratio between height and weight that

711
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 2: has core factored in, Like if he's five to nine

712
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 2: versus six two, you know, I always use the example

713
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 2: of Robbie Anderson and DK Metcalf have similar bone structures.

714
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 2: In terms of height and wing span and things of

715
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 2: that nature. But clearly the build is drastically different, so

716
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 2: we got to we got to pay attention a little

717
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 2: bit in those areas. Yeah, I think there's still a

718
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 2: low end. I think it's come down, you know, another

719
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 2: ten to fifteen pounds from where it used to be.

720
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think we still we still care a

721
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 2: little bit.

722
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, DeVante Smith and Jordan Addison will see if they

723
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 3: can try to switch that a little bit and even

724
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 3: even a corner right we You know, we looked at

725
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 3: the Manuel Forbes last year. Who's like one who's bucks

726
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 3: sixty five? I think is what one sixty six?

727
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: I remember?

728
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 3: I think it was a weight coming out of college

729
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 3: and that that that has to tackle every day. And

730
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 3: it just seems like every the the perimeter players are

731
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 3: shrinking a little bit.

732
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: Dan right, very much.

733
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 2: So again, as we search for speed, right side doesn't

734
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 2: always equal speed, masses and always equal speed, so smaller

735
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 2: guys can usually hit those things a little better. And

736
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: then again, I think you have to remain open to

737
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 2: an outlier. I think it's hard to completely close off

738
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 2: a certain weight and say, okay, if they're under one

739
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 2: eighty five. I am not even gonna look at them.

740
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 2: I've heard stories of head coaches and gms in draft meetings,

741
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 2: you know, and a scout says, Hey, I know we're

742
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 2: looking for guys over six foot, but man, I've got

743
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 2: this five ten and a half and I like all

744
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 2: these other things about him, and they're like, Nope, I

745
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:13,959
Speaker 2: don't want these under six foot. I'm not even I'm

746
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 2: not even considering. Wow, that player. And then I understand

747
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 2: that you don't want to build a team of exceptions. Right.

748
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 2: We've heard that line.

749
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: That's it's a Parcels line right there.

750
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 2: Barcelles line. But we have to be I think open

751
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 2: to the exception. If you have a guy in a

752
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 2: Forbes frame, right, and that that profile, again, do they

753
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 2: put together all the things needed to do that job?

754
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 2: And if so, then I think they should remain in consideration.

755
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: Giant fans love a winner. It's why they love Citizens.

756
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 3: Named the twenty twenty two best bank in the US

757
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 3: by the Banker as the official bank of the Giants

758
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 3: and sponsor of the Huddle, Citizens is made ready for

759
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 3: fans of Big Blue.

760
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: Learn more at Citizens bank dot com. All Right, Dn.

761
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 3: Offensive Lineman, one of the most important traits Now was

762
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 3: lengthy coming less important for tackles? Do you think is

763
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 3: a more athleticism? How much does testing do you think

764
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 3: really matter? For offensive linemen?

765
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: Is all about technique?

766
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 3: Is it fit with blocking scheme, with the new team

767
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 3: and the college, Like, there's so many things here, So

768
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:14,719
Speaker 3: one of the most important things you're looking for when

769
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 3: you're trying to find the right offensive lineman for the

770
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 3: right team.

771
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 2: They need everything. Offensive line, I think is a true

772
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 2: generalist position. Right, you can't have a role player. You

773
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 2: don't have a guy that's a specialist in any one particular.

774
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 2: I mean, what would you take as a complete deficiency

775
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 2: from a guy at that position?

776
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: Right?

777
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 2: You wouldn't take a dumb guy, right, You wouldn't take

778
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 2: someone that lacks technique. You wouldn't take someone that lacks

779
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 2: athletic ability or lacks physicality. They need to have a

780
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 2: high threshold at every marker. Now I'm not saying that

781
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 2: a guy is going to be elite at every one

782
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 2: of those, but I think you have to have a

783
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 2: higher floor at every single area. And I think it's

784
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,719
Speaker 2: why teams will take shots on big athletic linemen. Right

785
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 2: fifty we see a year after year that don't pan out,

786
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 2: you have to take the shot at him because otherwise

787
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,719
Speaker 2: you won't get them right. Those guys don't exist in

788
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 2: day three, but we will see day two and three

789
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 2: out linemen outperform those guys over and over and over again,

790
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 2: because that Day two lineman, that Day three lineman has

791
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 2: the high floor in all those areas. But none of

792
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 2: them look like a rock star level, right. It's just

793
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 2: they're just good. They're just they're stable at all of

794
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 2: those different parts of it, and so they do the

795
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 2: job more efficient and they do all the jobs at

796
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 2: a better level than someone who has you know, he

797
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 2: does a ton of length, or he has a ton

798
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 2: of athletic ability, or again he's you know, he's really technical,

799
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 2: but he's not that strong, right, or he doesn't change directions,

800
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 2: or he can't bend here he's stiff, or what. You

801
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 2: just have to have a lot of a lot of

802
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 2: things to play offensive line. It's a very demanding position

803
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 2: to know who you're going to block, where they're going

804
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 2: to be pre and post snap. What that does in

805
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 2: terms of changing I Well, we thought we're going to

806
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 2: do this particular set of run blocks based on this front,

807
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 2: but then they change the front post snaps, and now

808
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 2: I got to adjust. Now that I'm adjusting to change

809
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 2: my technique, I get to change the type of steps

810
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:03,959
Speaker 2: that I take and how I get there and where

811
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,959
Speaker 2: that places my hands. And I thought I was gonna

812
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 2: be the guy that takes off to the second level.

813
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 2: Now I'm not. Now I'm staying on and taking over

814
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 2: the first level. It just goes on and on in

815
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 2: terms of that position. So I think the differentiators in

816
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 2: terms of scheme come down to kind of mass and power. Right,

817
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 2: your ability to get vertical displacement. Vertical displacement meaning I'm

818
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 2: gonna take the guy in front of me, I'm gonna

819
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 2: drive him up the field right as opposed to horizontal displacement,

820
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 2: I'm going to get ladder. I'm going to get outside

821
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 2: of him in a way that he can't do. That

822
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 2: was where I think where the linemen differentiate themselves more

823
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 2: often than not. And then on the past pro side,

824
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 2: it comes out of how long can I leave them alone?

825
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 2: That's a simplest way I can take ask protection is

826
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 2: how long can I leave this guy alone? Do I

827
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: have to be running play action in our pos? Do

828
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 2: I have to slide to him. Do I have to

829
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 2: give him some help? Do I have to make sure

830
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 2: that it's quick game or we don't have a guy?

831
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 2: Or can I get towards a three second play? Can

832
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 2: I leave them alone in a certain said suations against

833
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 2: certain opponents and we can still have a play. And

834
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 2: I think those are the areas where that particular community

835
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 2: can separate itself.

836
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 3: All right, let's jump over to defense here. How have

837
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 3: you adjusted to the positionless defense?

838
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 1: Dan? You know there's really no more four to three

839
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 1: and three four.

840
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,280
Speaker 3: You know, you don't really have defensive end and outside

841
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 3: linebackers anymore.

842
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: In the three four They're kind of just edge rushers.

843
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: You know. Nickels now are star players? Are they safeties?

844
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 1: Are the corners? Are they blitzers? They do everything? How

845
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: have you kind of adjusted to the idea of the

846
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: positionless defender, which is something Wing Martindale here at the

847
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 1: Giants certainly does adhere to.

848
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 2: I'm gonna use when I use that offensive line that

849
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 2: generalists again, what would you take your defenders? Thinking at

850
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 2: I don't want to play in coverage. He can't do man,

851
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 2: he can't do his zone, he can't defend inside runs.

852
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 2: He can't defend outside runs. What am I going to

853
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 2: accept that my guy can't do? And really the places

854
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,280
Speaker 2: that we see that are going to be outside lane corner.

855
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,720
Speaker 2: We might see that a little bit with a certain

856
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 2: type of edge rusherman you can't defend the run, or

857
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 2: maybe deep safety that's a BALLHWK but can't defend the run.

858
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 2: But there's not a ton on defense where you can

859
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 2: put a guy in who's going to have a glaring deficiency. Again,

860
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,240
Speaker 2: my job in the NFL was always as a pro scout,

861
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 2: we would advance the other opponent, right, we would study them,

862
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 2: and then we're going into rooms with offensive coaches and

863
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 2: delivering Okay, here's what this particular defender can't do. Particularly

864
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 2: those those slot corners, those linebackers are that second level,

865
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: that intermediate area that's so juicy for offense is to

866
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 2: attack as soon as you walk in and be like, okay,

867
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 2: well this guy can't do this job. You'd lose them

868
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 2: because in their minds they're charting all the plays in

869
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,439
Speaker 2: their playbook that they know they can occupy and take

870
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 2: advantage of that guy with. You know, he can't cover

871
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 2: these tight ends in these areas. He can only be

872
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 2: in the hook curl. He can't defend the outside run,

873
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 2: he can't get to the edge, he can't come down

874
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: and take on a block. Well, they're going to figure

875
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 2: out ways to attack that. So defenders have to be

876
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 2: a lot of a lot of things. And again, I

877
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 2: think that's taking us out of a certain body type

878
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 2: because it's hard to say, Okay, I want a mike

879
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 2: backer that's six y three and two forty and still

880
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 2: does all those things, right, I don't know where to

881
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 2: find those guys, so we are okay, Well, if I

882
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 2: want all those things, now, I got to be open

883
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 2: to six foot and two twenty five or two thirty

884
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 2: right now, I got to be open to the fact

885
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 2: that he may not be an elite man corner, but

886
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 2: he's a capable man corner. But he does all these

887
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 2: things in zone. He can blitz off the edge. We

888
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,280
Speaker 2: can tolerate that. You just have to know your pieces

889
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 2: you're spacing on defense, and again, find those pieces. But

890
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 2: defenders are generalists, they're no longer specialists.

891
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:29,439
Speaker 3: I got two more questions, Dan, I'm going to skip

892
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 3: over the defensive line because I feel like big, strong athletic.

893
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 3: I mean, there are so many people that are alive

894
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 3: that can do that and play edge rusher, get off

895
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 3: strength link.

896
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: We know about what you need.

897
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 3: There two positions I want to touch on though that

898
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 3: I think I want to get into a couple details.

899
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: One traditional off ball.

900
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 3: Four to three or insideline back or however you want

901
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 3: to look at the position, right, I feel like so

902
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 3: much of that position I don't really care about testing,

903
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 3: to be honest with you, In some ways there are

904
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,879
Speaker 3: thresholds obviously, but it's instincts. It's being able to anticipate,

905
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,320
Speaker 3: it's playing off blockers, it's things like that that Again,

906
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 3: we love using numbers in quantifying, but I think for

907
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 3: those inside linebackers you can quantify a lot of the

908
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 3: things they have to do with because offensives are design now,

909
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 3: dan as you know, to put those linebackers in conflict, right,

910
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 3: whether it's the read option, r pos, take your pick,

911
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,399
Speaker 3: they're designed to put those linebackers in conflict. So how

912
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,800
Speaker 3: do you find good linebackers when you take out the numbers,

913
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 3: because again, I'm just not sure you can quantify a

914
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 3: lot of the stuff that's important that makes you good

915
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 3: at that position.

916
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we're gonna go to fit on this one.

917
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 2: And while we don't necessarily have the the classic four

918
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 2: three three four, every defense still has spacing. They have

919
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 2: a certain way that they're gonna deploy the front more often,

920
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 2: not a base teaching model that they're gonna go with,

921
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 2: and off that base teaching model, we're gonna have, you know,

922
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 2: certain gaps covered or uncovered, and we're gonna have certain

923
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 2: bubbles in certain places, and we know we're gonna either

924
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 2: box or spill, and where are support's gonna come from,

925
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 2: and all those kind of structural things, And it's knowing

926
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 2: what you're gonna do. Like, if we're gonna be a

927
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 2: team that's gonna heavily take our edge players, we're gonna box,

928
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 2: We're gonna funnel everything to the linebackers, right, Well, then

929
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 2: we need a sturdy linebacker who can come downhill and

930
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 2: accept all that that's gonna be funneled to them. If

931
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 2: we are going to be taking all the A and

932
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 2: B gaps and we're gonna close them with our defensive line,

933
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 2: we're gonna send everything out to the perimeter, well, then

934
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 2: I need rangy guys, right because nothing's gonna come up

935
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 2: in the A and B gaps we've clagged that we're

936
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 2: gonna send it to the perimeter. We're gonna spill everything outside.

937
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 2: I need guys that can go and flow and take

938
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 2: care of that, you know, knowing what my defenders and

939
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 2: coverage of the second third level, sorry the DBS can do,

940
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 2: then modeling that down a level. So if I know

941
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 2: I'm gonna be very man oriented, well then now I

942
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 2: can have man oriented linebackers, right, and I gotta do

943
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 2: my matchup reportingly versus I'm gonna be more zone predicated

944
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 2: on things that I need guys that can pick up

945
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 2: and pass off and you might get the number one

946
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,879
Speaker 2: receiver coming across your face and you got to carry

947
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 2: them for a little while before passing it off and

948
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 2: know how to deal with those things. So again, they're

949
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,280
Speaker 2: gonna be generalists. They're gonna have a lot of different

950
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 2: abilities on the floor, but it's so much about fit.

951
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 2: I think the linebacker ends up being kind of the

952
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 2: last piece. Like once you know what your front's gonna be, no,

953
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 2: once you know what your coverage is going to be,

954
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 2: then you start sliding those guys in to fill whatever

955
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 2: those gaps are.

956
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 3: All right, final question, and you segue it perfectly because

957
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 3: when you look at corners now, Dan, a lot of

958
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 3: times in college, you're not going to see them do

959
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 3: everything you need them do. In the NFL, right, so

960
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 3: many teams play quarters, they play off, they're not pressing,

961
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 3: they're not mirroring. Some teams are like we saw that

962
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 3: when Cincinnati when saw his gardeners, you saw him do

963
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 3: that stuff. But you don't see that with a lot

964
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 3: of guys. So when you're drafting corners, now, how much

965
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 3: are you drafting for scheme fit? And how can you

966
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 3: determine sometimes what are cornerback's going to be able to

967
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 3: do even if you haven't seen him necessarily doing college.

968
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 2: So I think a lot of this is where we

969
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 2: get to draw from that organization we're taking them from.

970
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 2: Right when you send your scouts in the road and

971
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 2: they're going to Cincinnati and they're going to talk to

972
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 2: the coaches there, we're gonna be respectful with how you

973
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 2: frame the questions. But hey, coach, you know, what were

974
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 2: you asking them to do? Was this a situation where

975
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 2: it was just you have that guy and everywhere he goes,

976
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,399
Speaker 2: you just have that guy. Or were you making him

977
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 2: read through three or four options and they had to

978
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 2: sort things out and then know who to pick up

979
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 2: and pass off again. Are you playing top down where

980
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 2: you're just driving down on things underneath you, or you're

981
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 2: gonna play under and mirror. You can see some of

982
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 2: that on film, but I think I think film's gonna

983
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 2: give you some good questions to go to that staff

984
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,839
Speaker 2: with and say, Hey, I saw this player doing that. Hey, coach,

985
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 2: correct me if I'm wrong? Was this what you wanted

986
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 2: him to do? And I think if you're respectful in that,

987
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 2: especially if you defer to hate coach, tell me if

988
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 2: I'm wrong or something language like that, they love telling

989
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 2: you if you're wrong, They'll they'll coach you up pretty

990
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 2: quickly on how we're bringing that guy along, and that

991
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 2: can fill in a ton of those gaps.

992
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 3: But you are kind of drafting, like if you're a

993
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 3: heavy zone scheme in the pros or a heavy man scheme,

994
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 3: you're probably gonna try to find the guy that you've

995
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 3: seen do that. Right, So, how whether or not a

996
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 3: quarterback's gonna succeed isn't necessarily whether or not he's good.

997
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,320
Speaker 3: It's whether or not you're asking him to do something

998
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:55,919
Speaker 3: that he's capable of doing in a lot of ways.

999
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 2: Right, I think part of that comes down to market

1000
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 2: and what's in that tier that year. So I've got

1001
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 2: three guys in that tier going in, you know, I

1002
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 2: think they're all consideration for you know, middle of round

1003
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,240
Speaker 2: two or whatever the case may be, early to middle

1004
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 2: round two. And then I'm sitting there and all three

1005
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 2: are still on the table. I got to have that comment.

1006
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 2: Usually you have it before the draft, but you have

1007
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 2: that conversation about how would I stack these three, and

1008
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 2: you can use those kind of things to what I

1009
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 2: would say, break up the cluster. A We're going to

1010
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:24,879
Speaker 2: stack those three now. According to that, this guy did

1011
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 2: it the most, this guy's the most developmental. This guy again,

1012
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 2: he's the hardest hitter, whatever the case may be. And

1013
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 2: you got to decide where my program's at that year,

1014
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 2: what's in the market, and then use that information accordingly.

1015
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 3: All right, people want to find out about the Scouting

1016
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,919
Speaker 3: Academy take your classes, Dan, tell them how to find

1017
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 3: all your stuff.

1018
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 2: Well, you can find our website at Scouting Academy dot com.

1019
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 2: You can reach me personally at director at Scouting Academy

1020
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 2: dot com with any questions that you have. We're trying

1021
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 2: to do a lot more here this coming season on

1022
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 2: our Socials YouTube, Facebook, Twitter. What have you with? Just

1023
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,399
Speaker 2: teaching concept, We're going to break down plays and show

1024
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 2: you different parts the game.

1025
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 3: Well, we can't wait to see it. Dan, this was awesome.

1026
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 3: Thanks so much for the time for joining us on

1027
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 3: the Giants Total

1028
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 1: Podcast, brought to you by Citizens, the official bank of

1029
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:08,280
Speaker 1: the Giants.