WEBVTT - Summer book series: Mary Karr 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.239 Hi, everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and this is next question. 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:09.640 It's officially summer, woo hoo, my favorite time of year, 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:11.800 and for the next few weeks, we're going to do 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:15.280 something fun because it's beach season, because the world is 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.279 opening up and hopefully some of you are getting out 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:21.160 of town and maybe looking for some good reads. We're 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:25.400 doing a summer book series and I'm talking exclusively to authors. 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:28.840 As you may know, I just finished my memoir, which 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:33.919 is coming out October. Please re order now, people, And 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:37.280 I know for me, the process of writing my life, 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:44.280 talking about my relationships, achievements and disappointments, was emotionally exhausting, 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:47.159 to say the least, which is why for the book series, 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:50.680 I'm talking to a bunch of memoirists and other writers 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:53.640 who dare to put themselves on the page. And there 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:57.040 is truly no better person to start with than the 0:00:57.080 --> 0:01:00.640 Boss of memoir herself. But I am not the Boss 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:04.840 of Memoir, Mary Carr. They've called me the Queen of Memoris. 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:09.119 I'll take Queen Empress, boss lady. But as long as 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:12.160 we understand that nobody elected me this, that this is 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:15.559 just what you and I have cooked up today. Back 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:20.360 in Mary Carr published her debut memoir, The Liars Club. 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:25.520 It is completely engrossing, a darkly funny telling of her 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:30.399 childhood in a poor, industrial East Texas town. I grew 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:33.320 up in what I call the ringworm belt of East Texas. 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:37.679 And um, my mother was married seven times twice to 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:40.320 my daddy, and she and my daddy drank a lot, 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:45.440 and because it was Texas, were well armed. So um, 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:47.760 the story I like to tell, which I've told before, 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:51.680 but it sort of explains everything in a simple moment. 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:55.240 We were retailing her kitchen right after The Liars Club 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:57.680 came out. My sister and I were there and the 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:01.280 child dude pride the tile off and held it up 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:04.360 and said, uh, miss Carr. She was a little fluffy 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:07.120 headed eighty year old lady. This car, this looks like 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:09.840 a bullet hole. And my sister said, Uh, isn't that 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:11.760 where you shot at daddy? And she says, no, no, 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:14.280 that's where I shot at Larry Over. There is where 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:17.360 I shot at your daddy. So um, first off, I 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:20.320 also say, a dysfunctional family is any family with more 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:24.440 than one person in it, And um, I think of 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:29.000 my family as complicated in some ways. We became a 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:33.440 family of only children because we didn't have a lot 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:38.000 of We were close in a strange way, but not really. 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:41.600 But I loved my parents. I mean, I'm not some 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:45.680 Dickenzie and orphan, you know, dragging myself from book to book. 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:50.240 The Liars Club took the publishing world by storm and 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:54.360 inspired a new wave of confessional memoirs. Mary followed it 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:57.560 up with Sherry in two thousand and Lit in two 0:02:57.560 --> 0:03:00.680 thousand nine. Then she wrote a how to book about 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:03.839 the genre called The Art of Memoir, and it's now 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:07.320 working on her fourth memoir. Oh and she's also the 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:10.960 author of five celebrated volumes of poetry and a longtime 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:16.120 professor of English at Syracuse University. S We had so 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:19.600 much fun talking about her writing process, being New Yorkers, 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:23.120 winning the Pooh Poems, and a million other things. So 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:26.200 I hope you enjoy Mary and me as much as 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:33.120 apparently we did. You became fascinated by memoirs at a 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:37.920 very young age. I was, So That's what it is 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:41.360 with me. It's not that I'm particularly good at it. 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:47.960 I just love I always loved that single voice kind 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:52.600 of crying out in the wilderness of life, experience I 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:54.800 started reading them when I was a little girl. I 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.600 I only have one notebook from my childhood, and in 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:04.760 it when I was ten, so it's nine five, I wrote, Um, 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:07.560 when I grow up, I will write one half poetry 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:11.040 and one half memoir. And then after that, I wrote, 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:16.400 I'm not very successful as a little girl. When I 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:19.520 grow up, I will probably be a mess. Because that's what, 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.240 like all the neighbor ladies said. You know, we had 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:25.839 a dangerous house. I mean, people were not allowed in 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:28.159 our yard. You know, people would run through all the 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:30.120 yards coming home after school and they get to our 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:32.000 yard and they would go out in the street and 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:35.000 go around it because they weren't allowed in our yard. 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:37.040 Because it was because you were the scary people. We 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:41.640 were the scary people. Yeah, yeah, yes we were. But 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:44.800 what but what was it about the one voice crying 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:48.840 in the wilderness that that really kind of entranced you? 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:52.640 And and what were some of the earliest memoirs you 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:56.640 remember the two that I remember? Well, there I can 0:04:56.680 --> 0:05:00.440 think of three or four. Actually I remember, uh, my 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:04.680 sister and I talked about this, and and um, I 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:10.280 remember Helen Keller. Remember Helen Keller's book? Yes, yes, of course, um, 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:15.520 uh and uh. And I remember an excerpt in a 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:20.520 Bridge version of Lincoln's Apologies, there's a big noise in 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:27.479 my apartment. Lit um. And then when I was in 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:31.200 about the tenth grade, I think or eleventh grade, my 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:34.320 ajolo came out with I know why the cage bird sings? 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:39.719 And it was such a her voice. I think, you know, 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:45.479 she had worked as a poet. And um, there's something 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:54.960 about language being someone speaking. I really when I read 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:58.400 My Angelo, who was a black girl, as she would 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:00.799 have said in the Jim Crows Out, that was white 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:05.640 girl in the Jim Crow South, and um, who was 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:09.120 scorned and beleaguered. We were both sexually assaulted as children. 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:12.720 I didn't think. I mean, for me, literature was kind 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:16.600 of the stuff of white guys, of guys who were 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:21.680 like tasseled loafers and used summer as a verb. And um, 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:23.960 my mother, who had lived in New York and was 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:27.400 a painter, had um it was a kind of Marxist, 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:30.159 weirdo painter who married my daddy, who was an oil 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:36.520 worker Texas oil worker. And um, you know she got 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:39.360 the New Yorker used from the people at the grocery 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:44.440 store who who subscribed to it, and so this was 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:48.599 real literature to me. I mean, these were beautiful, singular voices. 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:53.360 And Angelo doesn't doesn't sound like anyone else. Richard Wright 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:57.360 a lot of those mother was involved in the early 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:01.120 civil rights movement. I know you and hear that ambulance. 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:04.480 That's okay though, I mean, I think it's part of life. 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:07.919 And we picked up these sounds, and I was wondering, 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:11.240 is that New York or is that where you are? 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:13.880 Are you in Syracuse? No? I live in the city. 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:15.880 Are you live in the city. I live on the 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:18.720 Upper east Side, Yeah, so do I. We're probably close 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:22.120 to each other. We have to walk around the park, definitely. 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:25.200 I know. You know Diane saw yours right over here too, 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:28.880 I do. I two blocks from me. I know, I 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:31.640 don't see her very often going for We're going for 0:07:31.680 --> 0:07:36.920 a walk tomorrow. Oh you are, Please tell her, I said, Hi. 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:41.080 She is so look now, I can hear the siren. YEA, 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:45.520 there at your house, there at your house? Now. Diane 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:50.000 is so nice. I I you know, she was so 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:54.400 in love with Mike Nichols and I yeah, but I 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:58.360 wonder how how she's doing now and and how she's 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:01.160 getting along I think she's still and great. I do. 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:03.120 I mean, I don't see her a lot, but we 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:05.640 live close to each other and we occasionally see each other. 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:10.600 And I think she's great. I think she's She's so elegant, 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:15.680 isn't she? Isn't she just the most elegant creature? I mean, 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:20.280 to have grown up in Kentucky, Yeah, and come out 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:25.920 there in those pretty lips. She kind of glows. I 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:30.480 wrote about her in my memoir about how like just 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:33.839 bedazzled I was by her because she was sort of 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:39.120 She's everything I'm not. You're America's sweetheart, Katie. Everybody wants 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:42.280 to be you. Are you kidding? No? No, no, okay, Mary, 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:44.240 we don't need to get into this, but we do. 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:47.920 You're America's sweetheart? No no, And what does that mean? 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:50.920 I mean, we could really dissect that term, but let's 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:53.800 not do that. Is there something in it unseemly that 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:57.520 I'm missing? I don't think it's unseemly. I think there's 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:02.480 something obviously incredibly undered and probably of course, so if 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:06.680 it's gendered, it's gotta be bad. Well, not necessarily, but 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:09.800 it's sort of like perky, right, you know, perky means 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:12.200 I've been called perky too, and it means you're short. 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:15.120 It means you're short. I think it means you're vapid. 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:21.240 Oh shit, you can say ship on our podcast. Oh shit, 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:24.319 I thought it. I thought the worst it could mean 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:26.400 was that I was short. Now I understand they mean 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:28.560 I was that tall? Are you? By the way, Mary, 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:31.000 I'm five five, I'm not that short. You're not that 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:35.400 short and not. I wouldn't call you perky. I know 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:39.400 I'm a I am a glum bitch. Now I would 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:44.480 call you scrappy thing. Scrappy also means I don't think 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:48.920 scrappy is perky, though. Perky is like cute and like 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:53.520 there's something childlike about it. Perky it's sort of it's 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:59.480 almost toxic optimism. Right, that's right, And that's right is 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:03.160 like you know, you don't give up. It's it's it's 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.560 I wanted to name my book Moxie because my dad 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.120 used to say that I had moxie. You certainly do. 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:12.040 I think that. I really love that word, and I 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:16.920 also love how symmetrical it is. But I got the 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:21.520 kabbash from my publishers. What's your books title? Uh, it's 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:24.800 kind of a sort of point, it's fine, and Adrian 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:27.839 has helped me write it is probably listening and saying, 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:31.720 don't say anything that it's called going there. I could 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:34.560 not say. I guess. I mean it's sort of a 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:37.240 double entendre because I've gone a lot of places and 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.440 I really go there when I'm being honest about myself 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:44.080 and people I know. But um, I think that's a 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:47.720 great title. Do not win, Okay, I do not win, 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.120 stand proud. That's a great title. Okay, I will. I'm 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:53.400 going to have to kind of work on that, Mary, 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:55.720 because it just doesn't speak to me in the way 0:10:55.760 --> 0:11:00.920 that Moxi did, because that really going there is better. Also, 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:05.080 are you Jewish? No? Well, actually my mom was Jewish, 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.600 and so you are in a wild I am a 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:11.400 member of the tribe. I was raised a Presbyterian. But 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:15.480 I talked about finding out discovering that, uh that I'm 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:19.439 half Jewish, which really, according to Hebrew law means Jewish. 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:22.080 When I saw Manora and my uncle's bookcase, and I 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:26.880 was like, yeah, it's so funny. I I've made the 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:31.240 mistake of waiting into the posting something and I got 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:35.680 called an anti Semite on um social media last week. Well, 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:40.320 that is a very very tricky, complex topic to waite into. 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:44.880 It really really is. But I mean, I just you know, 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:47.160 I'm a New York intellectual. I mean, everybody I know 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.240 is Jewish. My daughter in law is Jewish, my granddaughter 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:54.600 is Jewish. You know, I'm um, but you're Catholic. I'm 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:57.720 can I converted from I was an agnostic, and which 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:01.640 is so fascinating. I know who could who would choose that? 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:05.560 Who wasn't born to it? That's that's really interesting to 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:08.960 us about. And then we'll get back to memoirs. But 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:12.280 how did that happen? Well, my third memoir, Lits sort 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:15.640 of goes into it, and for everybody listening to this 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:19.720 can know all about it. Um, well, I had a 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:22.600 hard time. It's lit. I had a hard time quitting drinking, 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:27.600 Kelly Sapriss, you know who. No one's going to be surprised, 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:29.440 given how I grew up that I had a hard 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:32.640 time quitting drinking batch and my surprise, it was the 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:36.280 one thing I was not going to be, uh alcoholic, 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:39.360 was a drunk. Yeah. I was a little girl like 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:43.240 dumping the vodka bottle down the sink saying you know, 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:47.520 I hate this and and you know, the terrible thing 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:51.120 about alcohol. I was just in that Hemingway documentary that 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:54.120 Kim Burns did, right, I've been watching that as well. 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:58.160 And the terrible thing about it for a writer is 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:03.280 that early on it works. It's a great drug. You know, 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:11.080 it's I mean, it liberates you, it I think, I think, Um, 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:13.040 you know, first off, I grew up the way I 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.080 grew up, and I have a very I have a 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:20.920 big startled reflexing. You know, I'm oh my god, I'm 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:24.680 what they call capital and nervous in the South, not 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:29.400 to the extent my mother was, um thanks to you know, 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:36.360 codependent English teachers and you know, various therapists, but um, yeah, 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:38.960 I mean, it's a depressant drug in it and it 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:42.120 sort of can sort of level you out until you 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:45.760 develop a dependence on it at which and you know, 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:47.560 it took me a long time to figure out that. 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.200 Once you cross that line, you can't go back to 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:53.320 when it worked, but you remember when it worked, and 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:55.360 you keep trying. It's like it's like having a bad 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:57.880 boyfriend who beats the crap out of you, but you 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:00.560 remember how much fun he was. I get that, like 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:06.080 that first year or so selective memory exactly. And so 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:13.520 how how has Catholicism replaced alcohol? Well, I I, um, 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:17.160 I couldn't get sober. I could not get so I 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:22.120 couldn't quit drinking. And I'm a pretty disciplined person, you know, 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:26.600 um uh in general, I mean I kind of had 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:28.560 to be. I was a single mom. I was you 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:31.520 know you. I didn't have come from a lot of means, 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.160 you know. I always had a lot of jobs, you know, 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:39.680 and I was extremely self sufficient. And I finally started praying. 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.120 Somebody just said I had to pray morning and night 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:45.960 on my knees. So I started praying literally the way 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:48.920 you know. It was almost like a dance move. I 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:50.640 would get on my knees and say, keep me sober, 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:52.840 and I would get I didn't believe in God at all, 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:58.720 but I stayed sober doing this, and something started to 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:04.240 happen to me. I started having an experience like in 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:07.200 my body. And all I could say is it was 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:10.840 just like my anxiety level went way down. But they 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.360 think now if you if you go into recover, you 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:15.520 go into a twelve step program. This is kind of 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:19.880 an interesting fact, is that when you tell your story 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:22.240 and you know this from what you do for a living, 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:28.520 and you listen to other people's stories. You um, you 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:32.000 secrete oxytocin, which is that kind of feel good hormone 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:36.040 that lowers cortisol and adrenaline and and it calms you down. 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:41.760 But more than that, you feel connected two people. You 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:47.360 feel attached to people in a kind of tribal way. Um, 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:53.000 and that is comforting. And so I just told myself 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:55.360 I was I didn't say there was a God. I 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:58.040 just told myself I was a lifelong atheist from a 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:01.520 family of atheist, that there was no that I was 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:04.000 hypnotizing myself. I think that was it. I thought, well, 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:07.120 I'm doing these prayers, and I was sort of praying 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:10.120 more and more like throughout the day. I began to pray. 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:14.440 But then when my son was about six, he came 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:17.280 into the bedroom one Sunday morning and said I want 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:22.360 to go to church. And I was like why, like why, 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:24.960 and he said the only sentence that could have gotten 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:26.680 me to get up and take him to church, which 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:31.920 was I want to see if God's there. And I 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:35.320 was just like, well, you know, I didn't like soccer either. 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:39.880 So we started this thing we called God a rama, 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:43.960 where um, anybody we knew had any kind of spiritual practice, 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:47.720 anything any weirdo. I went to a Jewish mid rush, 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:53.040 I went to Baptist Church, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, And you took 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:55.440 your son to all of these things. Yeah, we went 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:59.160 to his zendos and temples, and yeah we did every 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:02.200 We did it all. We did. Got a roma, and 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:05.200 I found myself to buy as Wolf the Great Memoirs. 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:08.960 To buy as Wolf. Um invited me to this little 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:13.240 Catholic church in Syracuse, New York, and there was an 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:17.240 amazing priest. They're just kind of he wasn't a saint, 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:21.119 but he was a very holy person, and he was 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:23.480 kind of the only person who could have gotten me 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:27.760 to convert. He was very not what you would expect. 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:30.480 He was just a little Irish parish priest. He wasn't 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:35.040 a an intellectual, he wasn't a firebrand, he wasn't a 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:41.119 super lefty um. But he he did things like the 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.880 local gay and lesbian community. When they asked, they got 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.119 kicked out by the Methodist if you can believe it. 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:50.320 And they came and knocked on the rectory door and asked, 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:54.320 Father Joe Um, can we rent your church basement? And 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:56.560 he said, Oh, it's just there, you know, you can 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:58.800 just use it. And next thing you know, we're having 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:03.159 gay and lesbian mass is and and uh. I remember 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:06.240 when he was dying, I asked him, what what made 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:09.320 you do that? Despite you know, some of the very 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:15.000 uh anti l G B t Q plus everything a 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:19.200 rhetoric of of our church and the hierarchy. Um, if 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:22.440 not that I think of the churches the people so um. 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:25.320 He said, well, they asked me, and I said, so, 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:27.280 I'll say what my parent, you know, if they told 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:29.320 you to jump off a bridge, would you jump off? 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:32.600 But he said, I just assume whoever knocked on my 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:36.760 door Jesus had sent there. And I thought so. He 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:42.480 was just a very simple person, very humble, and he 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.760 didn't have a lot of fancy ideas. At one point 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:48.840 I did before I even got baptized. I think no, 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:52.440 I think I had just gotten baptized. Anyway, I kept saying, 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:54.200 I'm not going to get baptized. There's so many things 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:56.199 I hate about the church. They don't let women be 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:59.439 priest and blah blah blah, and um. We had a 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:03.479 fight about I said, um, you know I called him 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:06.040 before I was supposed to get it. I'm not getting baptized. 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:08.679 You know, they should open communion and they should let 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:11.399 women be priests. And he's like, I'm sure the Holy 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:14.359 Father prays about that a lot. And it's sort of 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:15.919 like you would run at him and you would just 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:18.520 land on the other side of him, you know, like 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:23.760 he wouldn't argue with you. Um. And I said, no, 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:25.879 I don't. I don't think the pope is the ultimate 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:30.240 religious authority. He said, oh, maybe you will someday. Like 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:33.240 he was just like, and now we have Pope Francis, 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:37.120 and I kind of do think he might be. So 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:40.000 when was this When was this? Marriage was in the 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:43.320 This was in the nineties, so I was over forty. 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:47.639 And what about your son? My son converted and he 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:50.520 was also Confeque got confirmed in high school, which he 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:54.040 later told me. Um, he only did for me because 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:57.640 I was so devout, had become so devout. And he's 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:00.919 married to his wife is Jewish, his wife whom I 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:03.640 love like a daughter. Like if he hadn't married or 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:09.760 I would have killed him. Um uh. But he lets 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:13.120 me drag him to you know, Easter and Christmas and 0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:16.600 you know, lets me drag him to Mass and and 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:20.520 and after you started praying, was that was that the 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:24.760 end of of alcohol for you? I haven't had a 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:26.800 drink since. I mean, I get a lot of help. 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:31.520 It's a one day at a time thing, um. And 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:34.080 as you know, and I could not have done it 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:35.800 by myself. I can say that I could not have 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:38.879 done it by myself. And I hated everything about it. 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:44.200 I just hated. And when I started, you know, sitting 0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:47.720 in church basements and saying to people, I had this 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:51.080 great I had a couple of great people I met 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:53.000 in my life. A woman I called Joan the Bone 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:58.720 and Lit who was just hilarious, and she was gonna 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:01.000 fire me if I didn't start praying. She wouldn't talk 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:03.040 to me before anymore if I didn't start praying, and 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:05.919 she was sort of keeping me sober. I saw it, 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:09.000 and so I started praying. It's funny, I could have 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:11.880 just lied to her that I was praying. But I'm 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:15.200 still very involved with trying to stay sober and trying 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:18.480 to help other women, especially young women with children. I 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:22.320 think it's really hard, whether you're married or not, to 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:26.199 have small children and be fighting addiction. You know, I 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:31.639 think people really uh struggle. Do you think we have 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:34.280 a better understanding. I'm getting a little off course because 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:37.920 I want to talk to you about your process and writing, 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:41.080 because you have so much to say about it. But 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:45.000 you know, I'm just curious if you think that people 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:49.560 have been willing to talk about addiction more openly. Um, 0:21:49.600 --> 0:21:53.320 you know, you've heard a lot about women during the 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:58.200 pandemic sort of self medicating with alcohol, and it's still 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:01.760 in many ways in the shadows, I think, But I 0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:04.560 think it's such a huge problem. I remember on my 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:07.800 talk show there was like this mom's group and they'd 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:11.359 all get together for wine, and there was something about 0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:13.960 that that really upset me. And I'm sure I sounded 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:17.960 kind of like a a bit of what's the kind 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:25.399 of person who's always but also yeah, exactly, but you know, 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:29.480 it just upset me the idea of like their kids 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:32.960 running around and they're all drinking wine, you know, around 0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:37.720 the kitchen island. That's what our parents did and and 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:41.240 and I just feel like, um, a lot of people 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:45.240 are really struggling with this, but it's still full of shame. 0:22:45.400 --> 0:22:49.200 And you know, we're other forms of addiction I think 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:54.040 are being acknowledged and talked about and dealt with. I 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:58.000 still think alcohol is still in many ways hidden. Am 0:22:58.040 --> 0:23:01.720 I it's it's all it And I mean, I look, 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:04.360 here's the thing I think. I think it's something like, 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:08.240 you know, five percent of the population drinks like fifty 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:11.080 or sixty percent of the alcohol that's consumed. If you 0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:14.840 have this ailment, as I do, I was somebody who 0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:19.440 was an occasional drinker, a binge drinker, and it's progressive. 0:23:19.760 --> 0:23:23.879 If you have this ailment, you're drunk or drug addict, 0:23:23.880 --> 0:23:27.440 even smoking Mirjana whatever. Everybody says it's natural. I always say, well, 0:23:27.520 --> 0:23:31.159 strychnine is natural. There's a lot of going to the 0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:36.520 bathroom in your pants is technically natural. Um, there's a 0:23:36.560 --> 0:23:38.720 lot of stuff that isn't healthy. It doesn't matter whether 0:23:38.720 --> 0:23:42.200 it's natural or not. So UM, if you have this thing, 0:23:43.280 --> 0:23:47.040 you literally cannot stop it can't stop. I could not. 0:23:47.160 --> 0:23:52.320 I'm somebody who you know, I exercise, I do plot ese, 0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:55.280 I lost my teeth, I eat a lot of vegetables. 0:23:55.800 --> 0:23:58.880 You know, I'm technically a really healthy but I couldn't stop, 0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:03.480 could not stopped drinking. And I had always been able 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:06.440 to stop before. So I just think there's a line 0:24:06.480 --> 0:24:10.560 we cross, and I think I think writing about that. 0:24:11.200 --> 0:24:13.640 For me, I'm writing about faith to be an intellectual 0:24:14.280 --> 0:24:18.919 and write about faith. I mean, people just remember Richard 0:24:18.960 --> 0:24:21.879 Ford sending me a novelist, you know, sending me a 0:24:21.920 --> 0:24:26.399 postcard saying when I got baptized, saying car not you 0:24:26.480 --> 0:24:29.919 on the Pope's team say it ain't so. And I'm like, 0:24:30.000 --> 0:24:31.760 you know, this is somebody I knew when I was 0:24:31.800 --> 0:24:36.240 in graduate school. Who's like, people openly mocked me and 0:24:36.240 --> 0:24:38.399 and accused me of supporting pet of Field. I mean, 0:24:38.480 --> 0:24:41.399 people say terrible things to you. When you're Catholic, you 0:24:41.480 --> 0:24:45.639