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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and this is next question.

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Speaker 1: It's officially summer, woo hoo, my favorite time of year,

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Speaker 1: and for the next few weeks, we're going to do

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Speaker 1: something fun because it's beach season, because the world is

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Speaker 1: opening up and hopefully some of you are getting out

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Speaker 1: of town and maybe looking for some good reads. We're

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Speaker 1: doing a summer book series and I'm talking exclusively to authors.

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Speaker 1: As you may know, I just finished my memoir, which

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Speaker 1: is coming out October. Please re order now, people, And

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Speaker 1: I know for me, the process of writing my life,

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Speaker 1: talking about my relationships, achievements and disappointments, was emotionally exhausting,

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Speaker 1: to say the least, which is why for the book series,

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Speaker 1: I'm talking to a bunch of memoirists and other writers

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Speaker 1: who dare to put themselves on the page. And there

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Speaker 1: is truly no better person to start with than the

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Speaker 1: Boss of memoir herself. But I am not the Boss

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Speaker 1: of Memoir, Mary Carr. They've called me the Queen of Memoris.

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Speaker 1: I'll take Queen Empress, boss lady. But as long as

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Speaker 1: we understand that nobody elected me this, that this is

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Speaker 1: just what you and I have cooked up today. Back

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Speaker 1: in Mary Carr published her debut memoir, The Liars Club.

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Speaker 1: It is completely engrossing, a darkly funny telling of her

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Speaker 1: childhood in a poor, industrial East Texas town. I grew

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Speaker 1: up in what I call the ringworm belt of East Texas.

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Speaker 1: And um, my mother was married seven times twice to

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Speaker 1: my daddy, and she and my daddy drank a lot,

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Speaker 1: and because it was Texas, were well armed. So um,

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Speaker 1: the story I like to tell, which I've told before,

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Speaker 1: but it sort of explains everything in a simple moment.

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Speaker 1: We were retailing her kitchen right after The Liars Club

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Speaker 1: came out. My sister and I were there and the

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Speaker 1: child dude pride the tile off and held it up

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Speaker 1: and said, uh, miss Carr. She was a little fluffy

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Speaker 1: headed eighty year old lady. This car, this looks like

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Speaker 1: a bullet hole. And my sister said, Uh, isn't that

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Speaker 1: where you shot at daddy? And she says, no, no,

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Speaker 1: that's where I shot at Larry Over. There is where

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Speaker 1: I shot at your daddy. So um, first off, I

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Speaker 1: also say, a dysfunctional family is any family with more

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Speaker 1: than one person in it, And um, I think of

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Speaker 1: my family as complicated in some ways. We became a

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Speaker 1: family of only children because we didn't have a lot

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Speaker 1: of We were close in a strange way, but not really.

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Speaker 1: But I loved my parents. I mean, I'm not some

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Speaker 1: Dickenzie and orphan, you know, dragging myself from book to book.

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Speaker 1: The Liars Club took the publishing world by storm and

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Speaker 1: inspired a new wave of confessional memoirs. Mary followed it

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Speaker 1: up with Sherry in two thousand and Lit in two

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Speaker 1: thousand nine. Then she wrote a how to book about

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Speaker 1: the genre called The Art of Memoir, and it's now

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Speaker 1: working on her fourth memoir. Oh and she's also the

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Speaker 1: author of five celebrated volumes of poetry and a longtime

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Speaker 1: professor of English at Syracuse University. S We had so

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Speaker 1: much fun talking about her writing process, being New Yorkers,

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Speaker 1: winning the Pooh Poems, and a million other things. So

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Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy Mary and me as much as

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Speaker 1: apparently we did. You became fascinated by memoirs at a

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Speaker 1: very young age. I was, So That's what it is

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Speaker 1: with me. It's not that I'm particularly good at it.

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Speaker 1: I just love I always loved that single voice kind

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Speaker 1: of crying out in the wilderness of life, experience I

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Speaker 1: started reading them when I was a little girl. I

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Speaker 1: I only have one notebook from my childhood, and in

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Speaker 1: it when I was ten, so it's nine five, I wrote, Um,

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Speaker 1: when I grow up, I will write one half poetry

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Speaker 1: and one half memoir. And then after that, I wrote,

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Speaker 1: I'm not very successful as a little girl. When I

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Speaker 1: grow up, I will probably be a mess. Because that's what,

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Speaker 1: like all the neighbor ladies said. You know, we had

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Speaker 1: a dangerous house. I mean, people were not allowed in

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Speaker 1: our yard. You know, people would run through all the

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Speaker 1: yards coming home after school and they get to our

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Speaker 1: yard and they would go out in the street and

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Speaker 1: go around it because they weren't allowed in our yard.

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Speaker 1: Because it was because you were the scary people. We

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Speaker 1: were the scary people. Yeah, yeah, yes we were. But

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Speaker 1: what but what was it about the one voice crying

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Speaker 1: in the wilderness that that really kind of entranced you?

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Speaker 1: And and what were some of the earliest memoirs you

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Speaker 1: remember the two that I remember? Well, there I can

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Speaker 1: think of three or four. Actually I remember, uh, my

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Speaker 1: sister and I talked about this, and and um, I

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Speaker 1: remember Helen Keller. Remember Helen Keller's book? Yes, yes, of course, um,

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Speaker 1: uh and uh. And I remember an excerpt in a

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Speaker 1: Bridge version of Lincoln's Apologies, there's a big noise in

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Speaker 1: my apartment. Lit um. And then when I was in

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Speaker 1: about the tenth grade, I think or eleventh grade, my

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Speaker 1: ajolo came out with I know why the cage bird sings?

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Speaker 1: And it was such a her voice. I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: she had worked as a poet. And um, there's something

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Speaker 1: about language being someone speaking. I really when I read

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Speaker 1: My Angelo, who was a black girl, as she would

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Speaker 1: have said in the Jim Crows Out, that was white

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Speaker 1: girl in the Jim Crow South, and um, who was

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Speaker 1: scorned and beleaguered. We were both sexually assaulted as children.

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Speaker 1: I didn't think. I mean, for me, literature was kind

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Speaker 1: of the stuff of white guys, of guys who were

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Speaker 1: like tasseled loafers and used summer as a verb. And um,

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Speaker 1: my mother, who had lived in New York and was

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Speaker 1: a painter, had um it was a kind of Marxist,

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Speaker 1: weirdo painter who married my daddy, who was an oil

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Speaker 1: worker Texas oil worker. And um, you know she got

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Speaker 1: the New Yorker used from the people at the grocery

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Speaker 1: store who who subscribed to it, and so this was

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Speaker 1: real literature to me. I mean, these were beautiful, singular voices.

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Speaker 1: And Angelo doesn't doesn't sound like anyone else. Richard Wright

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Speaker 1: a lot of those mother was involved in the early

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Speaker 1: civil rights movement. I know you and hear that ambulance.

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Speaker 1: That's okay though, I mean, I think it's part of life.

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Speaker 1: And we picked up these sounds, and I was wondering,

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Speaker 1: is that New York or is that where you are?

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Speaker 1: Are you in Syracuse? No? I live in the city.

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Speaker 1: Are you live in the city. I live on the

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Speaker 1: Upper east Side, Yeah, so do I. We're probably close

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Speaker 1: to each other. We have to walk around the park, definitely.

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Speaker 1: I know. You know Diane saw yours right over here too,

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Speaker 1: I do. I two blocks from me. I know, I

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Speaker 1: don't see her very often going for We're going for

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Speaker 1: a walk tomorrow. Oh you are, Please tell her, I said, Hi.

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Speaker 1: She is so look now, I can hear the siren. YEA,

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Speaker 1: there at your house, there at your house? Now. Diane

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Speaker 1: is so nice. I I you know, she was so

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Speaker 1: in love with Mike Nichols and I yeah, but I

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Speaker 1: wonder how how she's doing now and and how she's

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Speaker 1: getting along I think she's still and great. I do.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't see her a lot, but we

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Speaker 1: live close to each other and we occasionally see each other.

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Speaker 1: And I think she's great. I think she's She's so elegant,

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Speaker 1: isn't she? Isn't she just the most elegant creature? I mean,

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Speaker 1: to have grown up in Kentucky, Yeah, and come out

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Speaker 1: there in those pretty lips. She kind of glows. I

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Speaker 1: wrote about her in my memoir about how like just

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Speaker 1: bedazzled I was by her because she was sort of

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Speaker 1: She's everything I'm not. You're America's sweetheart, Katie. Everybody wants

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Speaker 1: to be you. Are you kidding? No? No, no, okay, Mary,

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Speaker 1: we don't need to get into this, but we do.

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Speaker 1: You're America's sweetheart? No no, And what does that mean?

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Speaker 1: I mean, we could really dissect that term, but let's

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Speaker 1: not do that. Is there something in it unseemly that

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Speaker 1: I'm missing? I don't think it's unseemly. I think there's

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Speaker 1: something obviously incredibly undered and probably of course, so if

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Speaker 1: it's gendered, it's gotta be bad. Well, not necessarily, but

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Speaker 1: it's sort of like perky, right, you know, perky means

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Speaker 1: I've been called perky too, and it means you're short.

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Speaker 1: It means you're short. I think it means you're vapid.

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Speaker 1: Oh shit, you can say ship on our podcast. Oh shit,

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Speaker 1: I thought it. I thought the worst it could mean

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Speaker 1: was that I was short. Now I understand they mean

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Speaker 1: I was that tall? Are you? By the way, Mary,

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Speaker 1: I'm five five, I'm not that short. You're not that

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Speaker 1: short and not. I wouldn't call you perky. I know

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Speaker 1: I'm a I am a glum bitch. Now I would

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Speaker 1: call you scrappy thing. Scrappy also means I don't think

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Speaker 1: scrappy is perky, though. Perky is like cute and like

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Speaker 1: there's something childlike about it. Perky it's sort of it's

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Speaker 1: almost toxic optimism. Right, that's right, And that's right is

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Speaker 1: like you know, you don't give up. It's it's it's

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Speaker 1: I wanted to name my book Moxie because my dad

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Speaker 1: used to say that I had moxie. You certainly do.

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Speaker 1: I think that. I really love that word, and I

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Speaker 1: also love how symmetrical it is. But I got the

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Speaker 1: kabbash from my publishers. What's your books title? Uh, it's

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Speaker 1: kind of a sort of point, it's fine, and Adrian

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Speaker 1: has helped me write it is probably listening and saying,

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Speaker 1: don't say anything that it's called going there. I could

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Speaker 1: not say. I guess. I mean it's sort of a

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Speaker 1: double entendre because I've gone a lot of places and

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Speaker 1: I really go there when I'm being honest about myself

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Speaker 1: and people I know. But um, I think that's a

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Speaker 1: great title. Do not win, Okay, I do not win,

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Speaker 1: stand proud. That's a great title. Okay, I will. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to have to kind of work on that, Mary,

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Speaker 1: because it just doesn't speak to me in the way

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Speaker 1: that Moxi did, because that really going there is better. Also,

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Speaker 1: are you Jewish? No? Well, actually my mom was Jewish,

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Speaker 1: and so you are in a wild I am a

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Speaker 1: member of the tribe. I was raised a Presbyterian. But

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Speaker 1: I talked about finding out discovering that, uh that I'm

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Speaker 1: half Jewish, which really, according to Hebrew law means Jewish.

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Speaker 1: When I saw Manora and my uncle's bookcase, and I

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Speaker 1: was like, yeah, it's so funny. I I've made the

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Speaker 1: mistake of waiting into the posting something and I got

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Speaker 1: called an anti Semite on um social media last week. Well,

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Speaker 1: that is a very very tricky, complex topic to waite into.

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Speaker 1: It really really is. But I mean, I just you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm a New York intellectual. I mean, everybody I know

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Speaker 1: is Jewish. My daughter in law is Jewish, my granddaughter

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Speaker 1: is Jewish. You know, I'm um, but you're Catholic. I'm

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Speaker 1: can I converted from I was an agnostic, and which

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Speaker 1: is so fascinating. I know who could who would choose that?

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Speaker 1: Who wasn't born to it? That's that's really interesting to

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Speaker 1: us about. And then we'll get back to memoirs. But

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Speaker 1: how did that happen? Well, my third memoir, Lits sort

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Speaker 1: of goes into it, and for everybody listening to this

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Speaker 1: can know all about it. Um, well, I had a

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Speaker 1: hard time. It's lit. I had a hard time quitting drinking,

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Speaker 1: Kelly Sapriss, you know who. No one's going to be surprised,

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Speaker 1: given how I grew up that I had a hard

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Speaker 1: time quitting drinking batch and my surprise, it was the

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Speaker 1: one thing I was not going to be, uh alcoholic,

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Speaker 1: was a drunk. Yeah. I was a little girl like

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Speaker 1: dumping the vodka bottle down the sink saying you know,

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Speaker 1: I hate this and and you know, the terrible thing

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Speaker 1: about alcohol. I was just in that Hemingway documentary that

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Speaker 1: Kim Burns did, right, I've been watching that as well.

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Speaker 1: And the terrible thing about it for a writer is

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Speaker 1: that early on it works. It's a great drug. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's I mean, it liberates you, it I think, I think, Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, first off, I grew up the way I

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Speaker 1: grew up, and I have a very I have a

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Speaker 1: big startled reflexing. You know, I'm oh my god, I'm

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Speaker 1: what they call capital and nervous in the South, not

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Speaker 1: to the extent my mother was, um thanks to you know,

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Speaker 1: codependent English teachers and you know, various therapists, but um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's a depressant drug in it and it

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Speaker 1: sort of can sort of level you out until you

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Speaker 1: develop a dependence on it at which and you know,

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Speaker 1: it took me a long time to figure out that.

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Speaker 1: Once you cross that line, you can't go back to

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Speaker 1: when it worked, but you remember when it worked, and

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Speaker 1: you keep trying. It's like it's like having a bad

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Speaker 1: boyfriend who beats the crap out of you, but you

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Speaker 1: remember how much fun he was. I get that, like

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Speaker 1: that first year or so selective memory exactly. And so

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Speaker 1: how how has Catholicism replaced alcohol? Well, I I, um,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't get sober. I could not get so I

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Speaker 1: couldn't quit drinking. And I'm a pretty disciplined person, you know,

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Speaker 1: um uh in general, I mean I kind of had

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Speaker 1: to be. I was a single mom. I was you

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Speaker 1: know you. I didn't have come from a lot of means,

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Speaker 1: you know. I always had a lot of jobs, you know,

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Speaker 1: and I was extremely self sufficient. And I finally started praying.

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Speaker 1: Somebody just said I had to pray morning and night

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Speaker 1: on my knees. So I started praying literally the way

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Speaker 1: you know. It was almost like a dance move. I

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Speaker 1: would get on my knees and say, keep me sober,

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Speaker 1: and I would get I didn't believe in God at all,

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Speaker 1: but I stayed sober doing this, and something started to

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Speaker 1: happen to me. I started having an experience like in

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Speaker 1: my body. And all I could say is it was

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Speaker 1: just like my anxiety level went way down. But they

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Speaker 1: think now if you if you go into recover, you

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Speaker 1: go into a twelve step program. This is kind of

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Speaker 1: an interesting fact, is that when you tell your story

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Speaker 1: and you know this from what you do for a living,

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Speaker 1: and you listen to other people's stories. You um, you

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Speaker 1: secrete oxytocin, which is that kind of feel good hormone

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Speaker 1: that lowers cortisol and adrenaline and and it calms you down.

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Speaker 1: But more than that, you feel connected two people. You

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Speaker 1: feel attached to people in a kind of tribal way. Um,

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Speaker 1: and that is comforting. And so I just told myself

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Speaker 1: I was I didn't say there was a God. I

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Speaker 1: just told myself I was a lifelong atheist from a

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Speaker 1: family of atheist, that there was no that I was

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Speaker 1: hypnotizing myself. I think that was it. I thought, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm doing these prayers, and I was sort of praying

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Speaker 1: more and more like throughout the day. I began to pray.

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Speaker 1: But then when my son was about six, he came

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Speaker 1: into the bedroom one Sunday morning and said I want

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Speaker 1: to go to church. And I was like why, like why,

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Speaker 1: and he said the only sentence that could have gotten

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Speaker 1: me to get up and take him to church, which

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Speaker 1: was I want to see if God's there. And I

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Speaker 1: was just like, well, you know, I didn't like soccer either.

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Speaker 1: So we started this thing we called God a rama,

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Speaker 1: where um, anybody we knew had any kind of spiritual practice,

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Speaker 1: anything any weirdo. I went to a Jewish mid rush,

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Speaker 1: I went to Baptist Church, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, And you took

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Speaker 1: your son to all of these things. Yeah, we went

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Speaker 1: to his zendos and temples, and yeah we did every

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Speaker 1: We did it all. We did. Got a roma, and

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Speaker 1: I found myself to buy as Wolf the Great Memoirs.

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Speaker 1: To buy as Wolf. Um invited me to this little

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Speaker 1: Catholic church in Syracuse, New York, and there was an

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Speaker 1: amazing priest. They're just kind of he wasn't a saint,

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Speaker 1: but he was a very holy person, and he was

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Speaker 1: kind of the only person who could have gotten me

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Speaker 1: to convert. He was very not what you would expect.

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Speaker 1: He was just a little Irish parish priest. He wasn't

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Speaker 1: a an intellectual, he wasn't a firebrand, he wasn't a

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Speaker 1: super lefty um. But he he did things like the

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Speaker 1: local gay and lesbian community. When they asked, they got

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Speaker 1: kicked out by the Methodist if you can believe it.

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Speaker 1: And they came and knocked on the rectory door and asked,

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Speaker 1: Father Joe Um, can we rent your church basement? And

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Speaker 1: he said, Oh, it's just there, you know, you can

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Speaker 1: just use it. And next thing you know, we're having

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Speaker 1: gay and lesbian mass is and and uh. I remember

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Speaker 1: when he was dying, I asked him, what what made

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Speaker 1: you do that? Despite you know, some of the very

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Speaker 1: uh anti l G B t Q plus everything a

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Speaker 1: rhetoric of of our church and the hierarchy. Um, if

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Speaker 1: not that I think of the churches the people so um.

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Speaker 1: He said, well, they asked me, and I said, so,

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Speaker 1: I'll say what my parent, you know, if they told

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Speaker 1: you to jump off a bridge, would you jump off?

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Speaker 1: But he said, I just assume whoever knocked on my

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Speaker 1: door Jesus had sent there. And I thought so. He

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Speaker 1: was just a very simple person, very humble, and he

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Speaker 1: didn't have a lot of fancy ideas. At one point

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Speaker 1: I did before I even got baptized. I think no,

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Speaker 1: I think I had just gotten baptized. Anyway, I kept saying,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to get baptized. There's so many things

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Speaker 1: I hate about the church. They don't let women be

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Speaker 1: priest and blah blah blah, and um. We had a

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Speaker 1: fight about I said, um, you know I called him

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Speaker 1: before I was supposed to get it. I'm not getting baptized.

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Speaker 1: You know, they should open communion and they should let

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Speaker 1: women be priests. And he's like, I'm sure the Holy

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Speaker 1: Father prays about that a lot. And it's sort of

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Speaker 1: like you would run at him and you would just

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Speaker 1: land on the other side of him, you know, like

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Speaker 1: he wouldn't argue with you. Um. And I said, no,

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Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think the pope is the ultimate

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Speaker 1: religious authority. He said, oh, maybe you will someday. Like

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Speaker 1: he was just like, and now we have Pope Francis,

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Speaker 1: and I kind of do think he might be. So

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Speaker 1: when was this When was this? Marriage was in the

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Speaker 1: This was in the nineties, so I was over forty.

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Speaker 1: And what about your son? My son converted and he

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Speaker 1: was also Confeque got confirmed in high school, which he

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Speaker 1: later told me. Um, he only did for me because

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Speaker 1: I was so devout, had become so devout. And he's

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Speaker 1: married to his wife is Jewish, his wife whom I

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Speaker 1: love like a daughter. Like if he hadn't married or

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Speaker 1: I would have killed him. Um uh. But he lets

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Speaker 1: me drag him to you know, Easter and Christmas and

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Speaker 1: you know, lets me drag him to Mass and and

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Speaker 1: and after you started praying, was that was that the

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Speaker 1: end of of alcohol for you? I haven't had a

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Speaker 1: drink since. I mean, I get a lot of help.

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Speaker 1: It's a one day at a time thing, um. And

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Speaker 1: as you know, and I could not have done it

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Speaker 1: by myself. I can say that I could not have

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Speaker 1: done it by myself. And I hated everything about it.

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Speaker 1: I just hated. And when I started, you know, sitting

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Speaker 1: in church basements and saying to people, I had this

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Speaker 1: great I had a couple of great people I met

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Speaker 1: in my life. A woman I called Joan the Bone

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Speaker 1: and Lit who was just hilarious, and she was gonna

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Speaker 1: fire me if I didn't start praying. She wouldn't talk

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Speaker 1: to me before anymore if I didn't start praying, and

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Speaker 1: she was sort of keeping me sober. I saw it,

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Speaker 1: and so I started praying. It's funny, I could have

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Speaker 1: just lied to her that I was praying. But I'm

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Speaker 1: still very involved with trying to stay sober and trying

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Speaker 1: to help other women, especially young women with children. I

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Speaker 1: think it's really hard, whether you're married or not, to

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Speaker 1: have small children and be fighting addiction. You know, I

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Speaker 1: think people really uh struggle. Do you think we have

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Speaker 1: a better understanding. I'm getting a little off course because

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Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about your process and writing,

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Speaker 1: because you have so much to say about it. But

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm just curious if you think that people

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Speaker 1: have been willing to talk about addiction more openly. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, you've heard a lot about women during the

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Speaker 1: pandemic sort of self medicating with alcohol, and it's still

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Speaker 1: in many ways in the shadows, I think, But I

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Speaker 1: think it's such a huge problem. I remember on my

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Speaker 1: talk show there was like this mom's group and they'd

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Speaker 1: all get together for wine, and there was something about

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Speaker 1: that that really upset me. And I'm sure I sounded

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Speaker 1: kind of like a a bit of what's the kind

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Speaker 1: of person who's always but also yeah, exactly, but you know,

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Speaker 1: it just upset me the idea of like their kids

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Speaker 1: running around and they're all drinking wine, you know, around

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Speaker 1: the kitchen island. That's what our parents did and and

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Speaker 1: and I just feel like, um, a lot of people

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Speaker 1: are really struggling with this, but it's still full of shame.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we're other forms of addiction I think

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Speaker 1: are being acknowledged and talked about and dealt with. I

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Speaker 1: still think alcohol is still in many ways hidden. Am

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Speaker 1: I it's it's all it And I mean, I look,

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Speaker 1: here's the thing I think. I think it's something like,

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Speaker 1: you know, five percent of the population drinks like fifty

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Speaker 1: or sixty percent of the alcohol that's consumed. If you

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Speaker 1: have this ailment, as I do, I was somebody who

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Speaker 1: was an occasional drinker, a binge drinker, and it's progressive.

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Speaker 1: If you have this ailment, you're drunk or drug addict,

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Speaker 1: even smoking Mirjana whatever. Everybody says it's natural. I always say, well,

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Speaker 1: strychnine is natural. There's a lot of going to the

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Speaker 1: bathroom in your pants is technically natural. Um, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff that isn't healthy. It doesn't matter whether

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Speaker 1: it's natural or not. So UM, if you have this thing,

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Speaker 1: you literally cannot stop it can't stop. I could not.

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Speaker 1: I'm somebody who you know, I exercise, I do plot ese,

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Speaker 1: I lost my teeth, I eat a lot of vegetables.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm technically a really healthy but I couldn't stop,

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Speaker 1: could not stopped drinking. And I had always been able

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Speaker 1: to stop before. So I just think there's a line

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Speaker 1: we cross, and I think I think writing about that.

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Speaker 1: For me, I'm writing about faith to be an intellectual

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Speaker 1: and write about faith. I mean, people just remember Richard

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Speaker 1: Ford sending me a novelist, you know, sending me a

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Speaker 1: postcard saying when I got baptized, saying car not you

396
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Speaker 1: on the Pope's team say it ain't so. And I'm like,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is somebody I knew when I was

398
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Speaker 1: in graduate school. Who's like, people openly mocked me and

399
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Speaker 1: and accused me of supporting pet of Field. I mean,

400
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Speaker 1: people say terrible things to you. When you're Catholic, you

401
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 1: just have no problem saying incredibly insulting things. How do

402
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: you handle that? I just say, oh, well, you know,

403
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Speaker 1: what are you gonna do? You know the wonderful thing

404
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,360
Speaker 1: about having my hard drinking outlaw mother, who by the way,

405
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Speaker 1: got sober when she was about sixty and stayed sober

406
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Speaker 1: until she Um, so that's a legacy from her as

407
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: well as my love of books. But um look, they

408
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,879
Speaker 1: crucified Jesus. I mean he was the guy walking around

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Speaker 1: saying let's be nice to each other and like take

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Speaker 1: care of poor people and heal the sick, and everybody's like,

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Speaker 1: I've got a great idea. Let's crucify it. I mean not,

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Speaker 1: I'm not for everybody, That's the way I put it.

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Speaker 1: I'm just not everybody's cup of tea. And so some

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Speaker 1: people are gonna like that I'm Catholic, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: that's that's fine with me. Here's the thing about me

416
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Speaker 1: and Catholicism or and I believe any spiritual practice it

417
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 1: worked for me. I'm somebody who was I tried to

418
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Speaker 1: kill myself as a little girl. I was so depressed

419
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Speaker 1: out of my gourd as a child, I tried to

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Speaker 1: kill myself. I was so miserable my whole life and

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Speaker 1: became an alcoholic and a drug addict and had just

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Speaker 1: lots of adventures, you know, in my young life. Yeah,

423
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,919
Speaker 1: I ran away from home with a bunch of surfers,

424
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 1: which I write about in Cherry and you know had

425
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: you know, surfboards scooped out and filled with drugs and

426
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 1: and uh. I take great comfort in in my prayer life.

427
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: But I also take comfort in all the you know,

428
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 1: horse hockey around the church. I got a mass. I

429
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: go to confession. I I um A long time ago.

430
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: I volunteered at a suit kitchen downtown. Was one of

431
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: the great experiences of my life. I take great comfort

432
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 1: uh in the church, and um, there are million things

433
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 1: about the church I would I don't like. There are

434
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 1: million things about being an American. I don't like. The

435
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: million things about being a New Yorker I don't like.

436
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 1: But you know, I think I'm very I noticed something

437
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 1: when I went into the church. Here's what happened was

438
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: I noticed when I went into the church. I wound

439
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 1: up going to this little church in Syracuse after father

440
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: Joe retired for the Berrigan's Jerry Brigan, Jerry and Carroll

441
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 1: Berrigan used to go and he was eight ninety years old,

442
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: still chaining himself to nuclear reactors and going to prison.

443
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: And the people I met who were taking in orphans

444
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 1: from El Salvador and volunteering and taking care of people's

445
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 1: you know, aids, babies and adopting kids and doing all

446
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 1: this loving stuff, all talked about Jesus all the time.

447
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: They're like, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. And I was like, what

448
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 1: a drip. Even after I converted, I just thought, my

449
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,360
Speaker 1: friend Nick Flynn has a wonderful poem where he talks

450
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 1: about a guy opening his chest. You know, saying look

451
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: what I did for you, opening his shirt and saying

452
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: look what I did for you. It's kind of my

453
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 1: idea of hell um. But from going to church and

454
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: talking to some of these people in prayer and having

455
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: some spiritual guidance, I've I've become one of those crazy

456
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: people who's uh, I'm working. I'm writing partly. This book

457
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 1: is mostly that I'm working on now is mostly about

458
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: getting older. Part of it is about Jesus um I

459
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 1: as I like to say, Christ is a job title.

460
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: But when somebody's if you, you know you're you see

461
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: those guys standing on your porch with the pamphlets, you know,

462
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 1: and with the Jesus is all Swedish looking kind of

463
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: looking on you know, you think, oh God, not those guys.

464
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 1: You know where the guy with Jesus tattooed on his

465
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: bicep in the subway, you think, not him. But I

466
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: became one of those crazy Jesus people. When we come back.

467
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: Why is writing a memoir so damn painful? That's right

468
00:28:50,240 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: after this was writing a different kind of religion for you, Mary,

469
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: it was I mean that I always say, you know,

470
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: poetry saved my life. That poetry was like my first altar,

471
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,959
Speaker 1: and poets were my first saints. You know, even when

472
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: I was a little girl, I memorize poetry, those those

473
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: little Winnie the Pooh poems, you know, Christopher Robins, James Morrison, Morrison,

474
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: be George Duprie, that's great. Care of his mother though,

475
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: he was, Oh, I love the James James Horrison Morrison mother,

476
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: he said, said he No, like, you must never go

477
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: down down to the end of the town without consulting me,

478
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: unless you go down with me, Unless you go down

479
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: with me. I think there's also a consulting in one

480
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: of those. But no, maybe you're right, Maybe you're right.

481
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: Such a schoolmarm, forgive me. I can't stop myself. That's okay.

482
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: That of course, I'm going to google that poem when

483
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 1: we're done, but good, and I'll write you and say, Mary,

484
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: you were right or I was right, but so you were.

485
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: You love poetry. My mom loved poetry too. Um. And

486
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: and how did that then move into just writing, because

487
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: as you said when you were little, I'm going to

488
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: be a poet and I'm going to write memoir biography. Yeah,

489
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: I think because poetry was so much about feeling and

490
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: economy and form in shape, and also my drunk mother

491
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: when she was hungover. I would memorize poems and I

492
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: would memorize. I started very young memorizing Shakespeare, like really young.

493
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: And um, not the poems, not the sonnets, but the

494
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: big speeches. I like the speeches better than the sonnets.

495
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: Do you remember any of them? Oh? Sure, yeah, gosh

496
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: um yeah, of comfort, No man speak. Let's talk of

497
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: graves of worms and epitaphs, make dust oar paper in

498
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: with rainy eyes, right sorrow on the bosom of the earth.

499
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: Let's choose executor and talk of wills. And yet not so,

500
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: for what can I bequeath save my deposed body to

501
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: the ground, my life, my lands and all are bowling brokes,

502
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: And nothing can we call our own but death, and

503
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: that poor model of the barren earth to serve as

504
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: paste and cut and cover for our bones. Isn't that good? No?

505
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: I can do Julius Caesar, Hamlet, Macbeth, Richard the second, Richard,

506
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: that the Richard the second speech, that was Richard the third,

507
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: and Juliet, as you like it? Uh and uh. When

508
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: I recited the poems, I got crap. I mean I

509
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: got she liked that she liked that, I liked poetry.

510
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: That was she was in her mom was a quite

511
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: quite erudite, wasn't she. She was a very smart lady.

512
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: And the horrible thing about all right when I tell

513
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: people this all the time, she was insanely competent. I

514
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: mean she was a journalist for a while. She was

515
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: worked the police beat in the local paper, which then

516
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: even going out at night in a car they called

517
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: her a whore, you know, for much less having a

518
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: job at going out at night in a car without

519
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: a man to accompany you. Oh my lord, what could happen? Uh?

520
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,479
Speaker 1: And she did not give one rat's ass what anybody thought. Um,

521
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: yeah she could so she could lay brick, she could crochet,

522
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: she could tat lace, she could um she took the

523
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: washing machine apart and ficks. I mean she was just

524
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: smart and uh had wonderful literary taste. Yeah, it sounds

525
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: like it. Do you think society's limitations on her placed

526
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: on her completely fucked her up? Or would she have

527
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: been fucked up all by herself? I think there's a

528
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: bunch of other stuff. There's a bunch of others, But

529
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: do you think it played a role, Because I think

530
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: about my mom of course, you know, um, and I

531
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: think about all the moms out there who grew up

532
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: in a certain time where you know, the expectation of

533
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: what they could do and be was so limited. I mean,

534
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: just like now, I mean with I have you know,

535
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: so many young men of color, students of color, you know,

536
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: and they used to tell me fifteen years ago about

537
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: being stopped by the police and detained and you know, searched.

538
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: And one of my favorite students, wonderful kids, still lives

539
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: up in Harlem, used to carry in his backpack what

540
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: he called his nerd uh signal. I said, what do

541
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: you what do you mean? He said, I carry a

542
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 1: rubrics cube and a journal. Um. And he's a great,

543
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: big kid and and very athletic, and uh, you know,

544
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: not to be allowed to be angry. That's like a

545
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: lot of black men wear glasses exactly when they don't

546
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: need when they don't need them sacling, uh and not

547
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: to be And my mother was my mother was piste

548
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: off for a lot of other reasons. And uh, yeah, no,

549
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 1: I think the way. Look, I think young women are

550
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 1: just so damn cool. I mean, I think, you know,

551
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: long maybe twenty years ago, somebody was interviewed from Miss

552
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: magazine was interviewing me and saying, don't you think these women,

553
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 1: young women, you know, walking around in their booty shorts,

554
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: you know, with your um you know that they don't

555
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: understand the struggle the way I said, Look, this is

556
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: about first off, they don't don't make the sacrifices that

557
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 1: we made. I said, first off, I was looking out

558
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: for me. I didn't care about any other woman. To

559
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: be quite honest, I'd like to say I I went

560
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: to marches and stuff, but um, you know, I'm not

561
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: some I didn't sacrifice my life for the movement. I

562
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 1: needed a damn job to make a living and I

563
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: couldn't get one because I was a girl, you know.

564
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: So you know these women, you know, this is supposed

565
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: to be about freedom for us, for for all of us, right,

566
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,879
Speaker 1: Isn't that what it's supposed to be? But I think

567
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: these young women are so cool and they teach my students,

568
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: They teach me so much. Um. So, yeah, I don't know.

569
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 1: I don't know how we got off on that. Well.

570
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: I was asking you about your mom and sort of

571
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 1: if that might have contributed. But it sounds like there

572
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: are a lot of things that but certainly that uh,

573
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 1: you know, it makes you crazy. I think it. I

574
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 1: think it does. It makes you crazy. I mean I

575
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: was sexually assaulted by the guy who ran my m

576
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: F A program. I mean, like he wouldn't let me

577
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: out of his office, and um, he was at Princeton

578
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,240
Speaker 1: at the time. And when I went sort of finally

579
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: got out of there, which was it was it was

580
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 1: a great even though he never touched me, but it

581
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: was one of the most degrading experience, says The things

582
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: he said to me were so degrading, just it was horrible.

583
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: And um, when I went back and told the women

584
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: I admired these great writers, Louise Glick and you know,

585
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:19,399
Speaker 1: Heather McHugh, these wonderful poets I looked up to, they said, oh,

586
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: you know, he's just in love with you. And I'm like, no,

587
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 1: you guys, you don't understand. This was really scary what happened. Like,

588
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 1: I'm not a candy ass, you know, I'm like on

589
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,879
Speaker 1: the you know, I am a candy ass, but I'm not.

590
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 1: It's not like we haven't had to get by a

591
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: fella or two and our you know, but this was

592
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: really menacing and degrading and scary. And these young women

593
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: just you know, they have such courage and they speak

594
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 1: up and out and um, they show me how to

595
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,280
Speaker 1: do it. I okay. You said writing your first memoir

596
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: was like knocking yourself out with your fist. I think

597
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 1: also writing any memoir is knocking yourself out with your

598
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,800
Speaker 1: own fist. Yes. And you also said writing a memoir

599
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 1: is or writing memoir? Which is it writing memoir or

600
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 1: writing a memoir? Writing a memoir, okay, is like waiting

601
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: deep into memories waters and drowning a little bit. Everybody drowns.

602
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:27,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm in this book now. I've been working

603
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 1: on this book for two years, and it's about getting older.

604
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: It's about getting older. It's called Jesus, and in Jesus,

605
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:39,720
Speaker 1: it's called just you wait, Um, just to you wait,

606
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: because here's the difference in me and Nora Ephron. I

607
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 1: don't feel bad about my neck, you know, like and fairness.

608
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I just I decided when I was about forty,

609
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,720
Speaker 1: instead of worrying about how I look now and thinking

610
00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 1: of how I looked before I was gonna I always

611
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 1: think about how gonna look when I'm eighty or ninety,

612
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 1: and I'm going to look back at me now and

613
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: think you were hot girl. That's what my husband says

614
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 1: whenever I complain. He says, you're never going to be

615
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 1: any younger. But think for if you think forward, you'll

616
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 1: look because don't you look at yourself when you were

617
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: like forty or fifty and think, dang, what was I

618
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 1: worried about? I look great? I know, but I the

619
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: worst I ever thought I looked. I think I was fourteen,

620
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? There is something good about

621
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,720
Speaker 1: getting older, and I think, but I think writing memoir.

622
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: I've done three of these. This is my fourth. I've

623
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: written a book about this. I've been teaching this since

624
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: I've been teaching memoir at a university level. And you

625
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: would think I would know how to do this, wouldn't you, Katie?

626
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: I would I don't know how to do this. It's

627
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: because here's why. Because it's sort of like if somebody

628
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:57,439
Speaker 1: says to me, I want to write a memoir, it's

629
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: like saying I want to have sex, or I want

630
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,879
Speaker 1: to have I want to make over. How should I look? Well,

631
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: I don't know. How do you want to look? Like?

632
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 1: What's your You know? It's you have to find a

633
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,280
Speaker 1: voice even though I have a voice as a writer

634
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,399
Speaker 1: that sort of translates from book to book. I don't

635
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 1: have a voice for being the age for being sixty.

636
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: You know, I wrote in the voice of, you know,

637
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 1: an eight year old girl. I wrote in the voice

638
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: of a fifteen year old girl. I wrote in the

639
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,280
Speaker 1: voice of, you know, a thirty five year old drunk.

640
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 1: I don't have a voice for being fifty or sixty.

641
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 1: I don't have that voice. And uh, I think we

642
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: all remember in soundbites, in these convenient little clips, as

643
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 1: you know, from having just been through this, and you

644
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: tell yourself things and then when and I always kind

645
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: of interview myself, I'm like, really you think so and so? Like,

646
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: like I remembered when I was writing Cherry, I thought

647
00:39:58,080 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 1: I was smart. When I was in high school, I did,

648
00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 1: I thought, if you had asked me, I said I

649
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: was one of the smart kids. I was not particularly smart,

650
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 1: ketty like, I really wasn't. I mean, the bar in

651
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 1: my hometown was pretty low, you know. I knew the

652
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 1: alphabet pass a letter J, you know, like like, but

653
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 1: I was not a smart kid. I was a fan

654
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,359
Speaker 1: of smart kids. My best friend was the smartest girl

655
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 1: in school, and the guy I dated was like the

656
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 1: smartest guy in school, but me not so smart, not

657
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: that smart, no real evidence I was smart. So I think, Um,

658
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 1: we have ideas about ourselves in these sound bites that

659
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 1: are convenient, but those aren't true, those aren't really how

660
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: you live experience. In those ideas, you live in liminal

661
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 1: time in your body, and you have to kind of

662
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: reoccupy a former self, kind of zip yourself into your

663
00:40:55,520 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 1: old body and lower yourself into that other place and

664
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 1: time if you're really going to tell the truth about

665
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,919
Speaker 1: what's going on instead of just kind of reciting your

666
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 1: resume or something. You know, coming up truth and memory

667
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:26,919
Speaker 1: in memoir after this short break you write a lot

668
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: about that in the art of memoir about memory and truth.

669
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 1: Then you know how much how much liberty do you have?

670
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 1: And and memory is is a tricky thing, isn't it, Mary.

671
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't remember, I don't know what city

672
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,280
Speaker 1: I mean about it when I wake up in the morning.

673
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 1: But how do you how do you deal with that?

674
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,879
Speaker 1: Because you do you do see things through a very

675
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 1: distinctive point of view, And and and can you fill in

676
00:41:55,840 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: the blanks or how much how much truth has to

677
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:04,800
Speaker 1: be told? And how do you find the truth? Uh,

678
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 1: And in all the blurry moments, there's only one way.

679
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 1: There's only one way. If you start to make stuff up,

680
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: and as you say, fill in the blanks, a wall

681
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 1: comes down between the truth in you. It's sort of

682
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 1: like at the best example I can give of it.

683
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 1: When I was writing Liars Club, I knew that I

684
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 1: was going to change other than my immediate family, who

685
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:32,280
Speaker 1: I notified in advance, I was going to change people's names,

686
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 1: you know, like the mayor and the get Fire chief

687
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: and the you know, different people. And I let I

688
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: ask people, I said, pick your name, what name do

689
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: you want to have? I'll give you that name. So

690
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 1: when I was writing it, initially I tried to use

691
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: people's fake names, and I couldn't do it. Like I

692
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 1: would be writing John and I'd be like, but your

693
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:59,359
Speaker 1: name is not John, it's Bob, you know, like it's

694
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 1: just not the right. It's not right. What's going on?

695
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 1: And um, you cut yourself off from what's true. If

696
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 1: something's blurry and you think the reader wants to know

697
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 1: about it, tell him it's blurry, you know, say maybe

698
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 1: it went this way, maybe it went that way. I

699
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 1: don't know. I think if you show your process and

700
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: show yourself, show your good faith. You know, when I

701
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 1: tried to write fiction, I think a real fiction writer

702
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 1: tells the truth and fiction better than they would a memoir.

703
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 1: But a real memoirist somebody like me. When I try

704
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 1: to write fiction, I do such great things. The character

705
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 1: who's me is so noble and wise and kind all

706
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 1: the time. Um, And that's just not how I roll.

707
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 1: It turns out I need a lot of Jesus. I

708
00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: need a lot of help out, a prayer, meditation, a

709
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 1: lot of fie greens. And at the end of the

710
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: art of memoir, you have a five page must read

711
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: memoir reference list. Tell me how you came up with

712
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 1: that list? And and and can you tell me how

713
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 1: certain books changed your life and really impacted you're writing

714
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 1: and your career? Well, I think any book, um, Maxine

715
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 1: Han Kingston, Woman Warrior. You know, it's just such a

716
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: singular voice. And I'm so I'm so naive in a way.

717
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 1: I always believed. I always believe every memoir. So I

718
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:43,840
Speaker 1: always say, I'm like the guy who thinks the girls

719
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 1: in the strip club really like him, you know, like

720
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,879
Speaker 1: you could probably lie to me and I would when

721
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 1: I'm reading a memoir, and I would believe it. But no,

722
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 1: Like at one point, Um in that memoir, which uses

723
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 1: you know, Chinese mythology and you know, is sort of

724
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 1: ancient storytelling technique she got from her mother and um family,

725
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 1: and uh, this image of a woman warrior, of somebody

726
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:15,240
Speaker 1: who's fighting for freedom are really to keep from being murdered.

727
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 1: She's like leaping on clouds and she's like Ninja ng

728
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: through the air, and You're like, wait a minute, you know, Like,

729
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 1: but a book like that, the voice of it was

730
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 1: so singular and it and it has such a dramatic

731
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 1: story to tell, and yet I felt like I was

732
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: in the experience is somebody who grew up very differently

733
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: than how I did, or Richard Wright's I always say,

734
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: Richard Wright's Black Boy Um renamed American Hunger is is

735
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 1: like in some ways it was the first best seller

736
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 1: by an African American other than Frederick Douglas, you know,

737
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: who was just like a regular peron. He wasn't you

738
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: know a thing. He wasn't Frederick Douglas. You know, he

739
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: wasn't Booker T. Washington. You know, he was this kind

740
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: of regular guy and his occupying that child's body and

741
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: occupying that child's place in America. At that point, I

742
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 1: think it came out. I think I think all those

743
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: early memoir mid century memoirs from the last century really

744
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: influenced me. Um that one Richard Wright, that may Agelo memoir,

745
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: um uh Nabakoff Speak Memory. It's just one of the

746
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: great stop time by Frank Comraight, you know. Um, Toby

747
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: Wolf's This Boy's Life, Mary McCarthy Memories of Catholic Girlhood.

748
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 1: I mean, just great. Michael hair Uh Dispatches is I

749
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 1: think there this book about war, even though it's about

750
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 1: genocide in some ways, Um, but it's about how you

751
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 1: can go to war as a reporter and decide that

752
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: you're morally responsible not just for what you do, but

753
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 1: for what you see that other people do. So yeah,

754
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 1: I mean, the great thing about each one of those

755
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 1: books is so singular, you know, I you're talking about

756
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,840
Speaker 1: the level of truth. I don't. I'm not representing the

757
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 1: truth of history. I try to rep I try to

758
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 1: show the reader how my mind works and how my

759
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 1: memory works, and how I'm trying to piece it together

760
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,399
Speaker 1: so they know that this is a piece together thing.

761
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 1: This isn't a research piece of journalism or history. It's

762
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:50,280
Speaker 1: it's the truth of memory, which blurs all over the place.

763
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: But the minute you start to lie, it's like that

764
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:59,320
Speaker 1: there's a door that slams down. Writing cherry in some ways,

765
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:03,320
Speaker 1: I I chose that time because I've been sexually assaulted

766
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 1: when I was a little girl. I chose that title

767
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 1: in a way ironically because I thought I never was innocent.

768
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 1: I never got a chance. I grew up in this

769
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 1: alcoholic household, in this violent a place that turned out

770
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 1: to be a really violent place where I grew up.

771
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: Um not you know Rwanda during the genocide. But um,

772
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: I was a hyper sensitive kid in this place and

773
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: with these hard drinking people in the house. And then

774
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 1: when I started actually occupying that little girl self. And

775
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 1: where are your writing a boy's name on your notebook

776
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 1: like over and over like an idiot? Um? And there

777
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 1: was a boy had such a crush on Bob Perry,

778
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: all honored to his name. Um watching him, you know

779
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 1: the way of damn animalogist, watch as a spider. He's

780
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: out there dribbling a basketball. I'm just staring at him,

781
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 1: slack jaw. I was innocent, No, one could take that

782
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 1: away from me. I wasn't thinking, Oh, come off me

783
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 1: into guacamole, you know, I was thinking. And I remember

784
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 1: when I was writing the book, saying to my editor,

785
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 1: I just feel like I can't write this. She said,

786
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 1: what do you mean? I said, what I wanted was

787
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: for him to like skate up to me at the

788
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 1: skating rink with like one red rose and like asked

789
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:25,280
Speaker 1: me on the couple skate like that's what I wanted.

790
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 1: That was my big, you know, fantasy. And she said, well,

791
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,320
Speaker 1: you've got to write that so that it's as alive.

792
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 1: You're as alive in that moment, and that's as thrilling,

793
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 1: you know. At one point we played a kissing game.

794
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:44,319
Speaker 1: It was July four and in my garage with a

795
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: bunch of kids, and he kissed me and it was

796
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: so shocking. Did he kissed me on my mouth? I

797
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 1: just couldn't believe it. And I remember at one point

798
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: I put my hand, I put my hands up on

799
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 1: his shirt and he had this like you know how

800
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 1: they are polo shirts. Where we grew up, they didn't

801
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 1: even have polo shirts. He had a sea horse on

802
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 1: his shirt, and I remembered the outline of that Sea Horse,

803
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 1: and so I sent him the pages before I published

804
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:18,359
Speaker 1: the book. I said, am I remembering this writer? You know?

805
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: And he called me on the phone. He said, you

806
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 1: are such a witch. I said, what do you mean?

807
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 1: He said, how did you remember that shirt? He said,

808
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 1: as soon as you remember that shirt? I was like,

809
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: oh my god, how does she remember this? I was like,

810
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 1: you know, I was thirteen years old when you were

811
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 1: the cutest boy in school, Like how it was the

812
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 1: highlight of my life up until that moment, you know,

813
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 1: But no one stole my innocence. My innocence was there,

814
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 1: you know. They can't take it from you, you know,

815
00:50:56,239 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: even when bad things happened to you. And so I

816
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 1: think I thought it was going to be this like dark,

817
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 1: kind of raunchy, sexy later, not at the thirteen, but

818
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 1: later sexy. And it wasn't. It was a much more

819
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 1: innocent book, and yet very for me writing it. Those

820
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 1: memories were very vivid and powerful and erotic. Um but

821
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 1: not in the way but in a child's way, not

822
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 1: in some porno fashion or something. So because you transformed

823
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 1: and you occupy what's yourself at a certain age. Yeah,

824
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 1: that's right, that's right, just like you're now writing as

825
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 1: someone who's sixty six but looks writing as somebody who's fifty. Actually,

826
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:47,080
Speaker 1: I've got it fifty. Yeah, I gotta live faster. Well, Mary,

827
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:53,760
Speaker 1: thank you for doing this, Thanks for having me. Mary

828
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:58,399
Speaker 1: Carr's one of a kind memoirs include The Liars Club, Cherry,

829
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:04,240
Speaker 1: and Lit. Check them out Everybody next week on Next Question.

830
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 1: This was something I don't ever want to forget love,

831
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 1: loss and grief in the time of COVID. The fought

832
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 1: so hard and I know he did. I saw it.

833
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: Amanda cludes on her pandemic memoir Live Your Life, My

834
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: Story of Loving and Losing Nick Cordero. That's next Thursday

835
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: on Next Question. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a

836
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:35,319
Speaker 1: production of My Heart Media and Katie Kurk Media. The

837
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 1: executive producer's army Katie Curic and Courtney Litz. The supervising

838
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:45,280
Speaker 1: producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements, Adriana Fasio,

839
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 1: and Emily Pinto. The show is edited and mixed by

840
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 1: Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to

841
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 1: sign up for my morning newsletter wake Up Call, go

842
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,319
Speaker 1: to Katie Currect dot com. You can also find me

843
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: at Katie Curic, on Instagram and on my social media channels.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I

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Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to

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Speaker 1: your favorite shows.