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Speaker 1: It's time to get inside the Giants Huttle on giants

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Speaker 1: dot Com. Here we go on the Giants mob Let

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Speaker 1: the Giants Podcast Network. Welcome to the newest edition of

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Speaker 1: The Giants Subtle Podcast. John Schmolke with you today's guest,

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Speaker 1: Mike Renner, lead draft analysts for Pro Football Focus for

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Speaker 1: First Out of Our Mind, everybody that you could find

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Speaker 1: the JIHNT Subtle Podcast and all of our podcast offerings

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Speaker 1: on the Giants Podcast Network, presented by Investors Bank, on

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Speaker 1: the Giants Mobile app at giants dot com, Slash podcast,

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Speaker 1: and your favorite podcast platforms. And we're joined by a

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Speaker 1: friend of the program. Every year he joins us at

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Speaker 1: the combine. No'll combine this year, so he'll join us

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Speaker 1: now instead, and we'll get him again before we get

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Speaker 1: to the draft. Mike, you're in Chili, Cincinnati. I'm in Fringid,

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Speaker 1: New Jersey. How's the pandemic life treating you, my friend? Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's not great this time of year, but we're gonna

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Speaker 1: We're gonna make you. We got the draft to look

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Speaker 1: forward to at least here, no question about it. First

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Speaker 1: of all, tell the folks about your podcast with Austin.

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Speaker 1: Tell the folks about where they find the PFF Draft Guide.

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Speaker 1: Your big boards up there, give us all the details. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you guys are dropping die hard draft fans, we

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Speaker 1: have a year round podcast called two for one Drafts

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Speaker 1: host with Austin Gale that we do draft in rookies

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Speaker 1: focus basically player development focused and how guys are doing.

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Speaker 1: And you can find me on Twitter at PFF underscore

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Speaker 1: like put out a draft guide here at PFF where

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Speaker 1: gives you stats, grades, scatter imports on. Got two d

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Speaker 1: prospects in it now. By the time it's the final

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Speaker 1: Draft guy with drops at the end of March, we'll

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Speaker 1: have three prospects team pages for all the team needs

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Speaker 1: and you know, possible picks for each team, that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing. So you're not gonna find the data and

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Speaker 1: stuff that's in that Draft Guy pretty much anywhere else. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's really a great read, guys. Make sure you

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Speaker 1: go check it out, and of course you get that

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Speaker 1: with your PFF subscriptions. If you go there and you

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Speaker 1: check it out, you can certainly get that. All right, Mike,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna focus here on what the giants are probably

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Speaker 1: gonna think here in round number one. I've had it

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Speaker 1: categorized to me by other people that maybe it's not

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Speaker 1: no man's land, but you're kind of in that area

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Speaker 1: the draft where you might get be passed that top

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Speaker 1: tier of prospects and into right into the start of

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Speaker 1: that second group. Where do you guys at PFF have

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Speaker 1: kind of that first drop off of talent from that

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Speaker 1: first group of guys in this year's draft. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think there's nine guys I feel really good about in

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Speaker 1: this year's draft, and that's the top three qbs on

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Speaker 1: our board. Lawrence Wilson, Fields Pinassuel Jamaar, Chase Michael Parsons,

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Speaker 1: Jalen Waddle, DeVante Smith, calp Hits. That's kind of the

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Speaker 1: nine that it's like, you get one of those guys,

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Speaker 1: you got yourself a darn good football player like that

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Speaker 1: guy can come in right away and I feel comfortable

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Speaker 1: that they will come in right away and be an

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Speaker 1: impact player. After that, that's when it's kind of you've

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Speaker 1: got guys who are either opt out with a lot

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Speaker 1: of talent that you didn't see much of, or you

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Speaker 1: have some defensive players who are tools e but not

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Speaker 1: necessarily finished products, to where after those nine, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of again it's gonna be. The boards are gonna differ

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Speaker 1: a lot after those guys, but I think it's kind

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Speaker 1: of universally agreed upon those nine guys. You'd be hard

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Speaker 1: pressed to find them outside of you know, twelve to

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Speaker 1: three team on any other any other draft board arounds

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Speaker 1: you know, the league probably and the Giants will hope

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Speaker 1: one of those nine dropped to them. Obviously, let's start

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Speaker 1: with wide receiver or offensive weapon because we're gonna include

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Speaker 1: Kyle Pitts in this conversation, Mike, When you look at

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Speaker 1: that group, how do you guys at PFF ranked them Pits, Wattle, Smith,

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Speaker 1: Chase one through four, So you can't go wrong. That's

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Speaker 1: how I want to say, I rank I don't. I

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Speaker 1: don't like to rank them because they're also darn good

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Speaker 1: in what they bring to the table. Now there are

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Speaker 1: three or I guess if you throw cow Pits in there,

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Speaker 1: for very different types of receivers, and so that's kind

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Speaker 1: of gonna be the biggest thing is what kind of

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Speaker 1: receiver do you want? Do you want a physical, true,

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Speaker 1: sort of X outside wide receiver who is going to

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Speaker 1: win down the football field within the intermediar range, that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing. They just plug in and leave there

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Speaker 1: and let go in your offense, that's Mr Chase. Do

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Speaker 1: you want a diverse route runner and probably the best

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Speaker 1: route runner uh in this draft class? Ask who can

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Speaker 1: get open from a number of different alignments, but may

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Speaker 1: not be you know, the most dynamic after the catch,

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Speaker 1: may not be your guy who's gonna line up on

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Speaker 1: the outside win one on one every time. I think

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Speaker 1: that's Davante Smith in this draft class. If you want

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Speaker 1: the speed element, that downfield explosive elements you're passing game

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Speaker 1: that everyone wants, the Tyreek Hill effect, that's Jalen Waddle.

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Speaker 1: He has that used in my opinion, much better prospect

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Speaker 1: than wide receiver one off the board last year and

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Speaker 1: Henry Ruggs. Or do you want kind of the new

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Speaker 1: age tight end, the Travis Kelsey, the guy that can

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Speaker 1: line up anywhere and win from anywhere. Maybe not going

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Speaker 1: to be the biggest big play threat, but as a

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Speaker 1: guy who gives your offensive a ton of flexibility. And yes,

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Speaker 1: he's listed as a tight end in this draft, and

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Speaker 1: he is a tight end. He can play in line,

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Speaker 1: but I think his versatility is the flexibility is going

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Speaker 1: to be his calling card at the next level. He

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Speaker 1: just he can beat any guy that lines up across

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Speaker 1: from him is basically the selling point for Pitts. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think the thing about Pits that impressed me

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Speaker 1: the most Mike watching him on tape was if you

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Speaker 1: line him up on the perimeter against the corn back,

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Speaker 1: he'll big boy him. You saw a back shoulder catches,

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Speaker 1: all sorts of things like that. In the slot, He's

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Speaker 1: running past safeties and linebackers over the middle, so he

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Speaker 1: can win in different ways. And he doesn't move like

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Speaker 1: a six six player. You usually watch a six six player,

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Speaker 1: They don't come in out of the breaks that well.

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Speaker 1: He runs and breaks and it's at the top of

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Speaker 1: his route. Looks like a guy that's six two, which

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Speaker 1: is very rare for a player that size. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: the biggest thing with him that I'm the first guy

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Speaker 1: to say, don't draft a tight end in the first round.

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Speaker 1: You're not going to recoup your value because the biggest

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Speaker 1: thing is usually tight ends they can't beat one on

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Speaker 1: one cover, so they can't go outside and beat at cornerback.

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Speaker 1: They can't. If you get a good cover safety on them,

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, they're eliminated. And then that guy

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Speaker 1: is not part of your passing offense, You've kind of

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Speaker 1: screwed at that point. That's why there's only a prob

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Speaker 1: only three actual difference makers at the tight end position

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Speaker 1: in the entire NFL, because there's three guys that can

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Speaker 1: actually beat cornerbacks one on one and Travis Kelsey, George Kittle,

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Speaker 1: and Darren Waller. Kyle Pitts is one of those guys.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't stake my refuge tation on him being one

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Speaker 1: of those guys because we've seen it already. He was

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Speaker 1: third in the entire country this year in terms of

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Speaker 1: yards car out run against me on coverage, behind DeVante

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Speaker 1: Smith and a guy from North Texas in Jail and Darden.

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Speaker 1: So he was third in the country in terms of

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Speaker 1: production when he when guys were matched up with him

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Speaker 1: one on one, and that's lined up outside, lined up

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Speaker 1: in the slot, lined up in line, wherever he is,

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Speaker 1: he can produce, he can beat the guy across from

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Speaker 1: That's the biggest sort of selling point. And that's why

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Speaker 1: if you were just considering him a wide receiver, never

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Speaker 1: gonna play him in line, I would still put him

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Speaker 1: in this range in the draft class. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: and with the blocking. You know, he's never gonna be

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Speaker 1: a point of attack guy, but he tries like there's

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Speaker 1: effort there. Like he like he if you need him

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Speaker 1: the wall off the weak side of a run play,

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Speaker 1: he can do things like that. He's twenty years old too.

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Speaker 1: That guy is young. You will not be twenty one

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Speaker 1: until next October. So that just doesn't You don't see

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Speaker 1: tight end prospects that young usually. And so you talked

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Speaker 1: about twe year old. Think George Kittle was two pounds

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Speaker 1: when he was twenty years old. He was not in

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Speaker 1: line run black tight end either. Guys can grow, you know,

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Speaker 1: guys at that age still get bigger and still get stronger.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's something he can add to his repertoire.

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Speaker 1: And if you're from a giant's point of view, where

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Speaker 1: you already having Evan Ingram and you're saying, oh, I

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Speaker 1: don't want another Evan Ingram, Evan Ingram was almost twenty

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Speaker 1: three years old when he was drafted. He was two

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Speaker 1: d and thirty four pound six too. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: a different type of athlete altogether, at at a different

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Speaker 1: age than Evan Ingram. There's true development to be had

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Speaker 1: any how, Pitts games still And to your point, I

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Speaker 1: made the point on one of our shows last week

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Speaker 1: that Ingram six to right it comes in and out

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Speaker 1: of his brakes better than Ingram does. Maybe Ingram is

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Speaker 1: faster straight ahead, but in terms of side the side

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Speaker 1: pits is already better. Yeah, he's He's a better route

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Speaker 1: runner coming out of Florida than Ingram was coming out

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Speaker 1: of Old Miss, for sure. Like, I don't even think

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Speaker 1: it's close. Ingram struggled to win, not from anywhere really

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Speaker 1: other than the slot at Old Miss. Alright, so let's

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Speaker 1: let's go to the wide receivers. Now, I think we

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Speaker 1: both have Jamaar Chase on top here. If you were

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Speaker 1: to pick out something you're worried about with Jamaar Chase,

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Speaker 1: what would you pick Because sometimes I have trouble Mike

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Speaker 1: with the wide receivers that maybe aren't quite so shifty

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Speaker 1: and their separation isn't quite as obvious, and they rely

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Speaker 1: more on physicality and things like that. I think chases

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Speaker 1: in that category. So if there's one thing that, if

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Speaker 1: there's you would red flag chase or maybe just a

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Speaker 1: yellow flag chase, what would it be? I think you

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Speaker 1: kind of touched on it with the shiftiness aspect. He

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Speaker 1: is not a guy who is going to make you

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Speaker 1: missed completely at the last scrimmage. That is not his game.

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Speaker 1: He's not Davante Adams in that regard. He's not Davante

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Speaker 1: Smith in that regard. He is not uh that caliber

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Speaker 1: of as just say, shiftingness. He doesn't have necessarily that

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Speaker 1: part of his game. But what he does do is

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Speaker 1: if you don't get them completely cleanly, he's gonna get

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Speaker 1: more physical with you than you are with him. And

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Speaker 1: that's kind of how he wins. And so he's the

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Speaker 1: guy that doesn't that even with you know, even when

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Speaker 1: he's not open, he's open. It's kind of he's one

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Speaker 1: of those types of wider exisions. So if you don't

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Speaker 1: go to a quarterback who's necess fairly comfortable throwing two

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Speaker 1: guys who are quote unquote guarded down the football field,

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Speaker 1: he might not get a lot of targets, he might

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Speaker 1: not seem as open. But I think when he played

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Speaker 1: with Joe Burrow, a big strength of that offense was

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Speaker 1: the fact that Joe Burrows willing to give him chances,

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Speaker 1: and ja mar Chase finished all those chances when he

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Speaker 1: was giving them. So I think that's the biggest things

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Speaker 1: that guys get their hands on him. Yes, but I

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Speaker 1: think he kind of overcomes that with the fact that

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Speaker 1: he is about as strong a wide receiver as I've

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Speaker 1: seen a true sophomore in college football history. Guy was

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Speaker 1: just a rock beating up bigger corners than him in

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Speaker 1: college football. And I only imagine after a year of

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Speaker 1: just training what that guy is gonna look like. By

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Speaker 1: the way, Oh, I know he's a freak Davante Smith

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Speaker 1: one six one, But watching him, I don't see that

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Speaker 1: show up, do you. It does. It's so rare to

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Speaker 1: see it show up. And that's the thing is because

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Speaker 1: he is that level of shifty. He is already so

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Speaker 1: developed and polished as a route runner that and so physical,

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Speaker 1: and he's willing to play strong when you guys are

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Speaker 1: skinny and you know, shying away from contact, that's one thing,

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Speaker 1: but he's willing to initiate, willing to go through defenders

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Speaker 1: to get to the football. That's not an issue for

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Speaker 1: him whatsoever. So yeah, it'll show up more at the

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Speaker 1: NFL level. It's just will guys are bigger, guys get

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Speaker 1: their hands on you more. They're better and more consistent

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Speaker 1: with their technique, but it's nowhere near such that I'd

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Speaker 1: worry about. Like there is a track record of guys

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Speaker 1: in a similar body type, Marvin Harrison, Isaac Bruce who

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Speaker 1: have had success at the NFL level, even though it

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Speaker 1: has been a while, because I the only reason it's

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Speaker 1: been a while is because college lifting techniques. They've gotten

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Speaker 1: a lot better in developing these guys physically is I

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Speaker 1: think the only reason you don't see guys like that

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Speaker 1: come out anymore. But I don't think it's that big

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Speaker 1: of a deal and gonna really kind of torpedoes career

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Speaker 1: at the NFL level, You know, Mike, I think you

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Speaker 1: can make a good argument Smith Waddle, depending on your

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Speaker 1: fit and need, which guy is better for your team?

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Speaker 1: When you get the Giants who have Darius Layton, who's

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Speaker 1: a good speed guy, can do a little stuff down

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Speaker 1: the field, Sterling Shepherd who went healthy, can get separation,

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Speaker 1: really good slot player for what they're looking for. Who

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Speaker 1: do you think is the better fit for their roster,

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Speaker 1: Wattle or Smith? I think Smith. I don't even think

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Speaker 1: it's really that close, because you need a guy who

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Speaker 1: can win consistently. Austin line of scrimmers that Daniel Jones

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Speaker 1: can trust to win quickly, and I think Waddle can

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Speaker 1: do that. I'm not gonna sell him short in that regard,

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Speaker 1: but his main selling point is what he could do

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Speaker 1: down the football field. I just think that in that

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Speaker 1: offense you have guys Slayton can Slaton can do some

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Speaker 1: of the things that Waddle can do from a deep

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Speaker 1: speed perspective, from a threatening down the football field perspective.

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Speaker 1: They don't have a guy that can do what DeVante

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Speaker 1: Smith can do in terms of getting open on slam roup,

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Speaker 1: getting open not a hit shop. That is his bread

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Speaker 1: and butter. He can do that all day, every day.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that's what that offense needs, is

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Speaker 1: that guy to rely on in situations like that. And

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Speaker 1: that's not again not saying Waddles necessarily never going to

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Speaker 1: be that. I just feel very good about that being Smith. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I have I have to agree with you on that.

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Speaker 1: The other calculation before we move on from to a

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Speaker 1: different position like that the Giants, and I guess a

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Speaker 1: lot of teams are gonna have to make, is how

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Speaker 1: big is to drop off from that first tree old

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Speaker 1: wide receivers so that next group that the Giants could

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Speaker 1: pick with their you know, topt pick in the second

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Speaker 1: round where maybe you get another premier player at eleven,

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Speaker 1: but then you wait for that wide receiver and round two.

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Speaker 1: We know the quality of receivers that have gotten the

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Speaker 1: second round the last few years. They've turned out to

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Speaker 1: be really good players. How big is that drop off

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Speaker 1: to you? And what other guys do you think fits

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Speaker 1: that need that the Giants have that could be available

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Speaker 1: for them in that second round. I think this is

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Speaker 1: a big drop off in terms of certainty. Like those

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Speaker 1: three guys at the top, if they are not consistently

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Speaker 1: one thousand yard wide receivers, they will blow my mind.

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Speaker 1: They they are that talented, and they're all physical freaks

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Speaker 1: in their own sort of way. They bring it all

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Speaker 1: to the table sort of things. So I think it's

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Speaker 1: the certainty of those guys is why you would draft

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Speaker 1: them at the top of this draft. After those three

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Speaker 1: those not a guy I feel certain has feel, has

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Speaker 1: ticks all the boxes sort of thing, has so few

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Speaker 1: weaknesses that you can't really see them failing. But there

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Speaker 1: are guys that are incredibly talented that could fill that

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Speaker 1: need in the second round that can be can do

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Speaker 1: a imitation at least a close one of what you

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Speaker 1: could get at pick number eleven. The guy I would

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Speaker 1: be hoping and praying if you don't go wide receiver

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Speaker 1: in the first round that falls to SEC round is

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Speaker 1: Rashod Bateman from Minnesota. Again I was talking about they

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Speaker 1: need a guy who can get off the line of

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Speaker 1: scrimmage when a slant that you can rely on to

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Speaker 1: win in those situations. That's for Shod Bateman. His releases

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Speaker 1: off the line of scrimmage. The Minnesota wide receiver about

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Speaker 1: as good as it gets in the draft class for

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Speaker 1: a guy who's six ft two hundred fifteen pounds and

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Speaker 1: actual has some actual size to him, very reminiscent of

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Speaker 1: a Davante Adams in terms of his shifting nous. So

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Speaker 1: not going to be a straight line speed guy, but

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Speaker 1: they have speed at other positions on their roster, and

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Speaker 1: the Giants they don't necessarily just need speed, They need

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Speaker 1: again a guy and get open. I think guess for

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Speaker 1: Shot Bateman because of that lack cauld being unlikely to

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Speaker 1: go in the first round, So if he does follow

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Speaker 1: the way in the second, that could be a home run.

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Speaker 1: Where do you think he's gonna run when he eventually

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Speaker 1: does that forty. Wherever he does that forty, people are

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Speaker 1: gonna see a lot of not slow forties old conditions.

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Speaker 1: Guys are gonna be, you know, sliding down hills on

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Speaker 1: sleds and whatnot. But I think four so because of

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Speaker 1: the favorable conditions, I think he sneaks under for six.

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Speaker 1: But I think realistically he's more like a low four

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Speaker 1: six guy and four high four or five to low

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Speaker 1: four six is where he is. But like Deander Hopkins

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Speaker 1: was four or five seven, Michael Thomas was for six one,

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Speaker 1: I want to say, Keenan Allen's four seven, it's not

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Speaker 1: it's not death knell. And when you have size to

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Speaker 1: make it up and suddenness and shifting nous, it's it's

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Speaker 1: not that big of a deal. In the NFL, What

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Speaker 1: do you guys think of terrorist Marshall the big receiver

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Speaker 1: right of LSU. If the Giants do want to try

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Speaker 1: to find another one of those kind of bigger true

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Speaker 1: X guys, you can put outside and let him win. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think he's still underdeveloped in terms of kind of things.

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Speaker 1: I was just talking about his releases in terms of

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Speaker 1: his route breaks, but physically what he brings to the

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Speaker 1: table is is very impressive. I mean size, length, speed,

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Speaker 1: he speed is not a question mark with him. He's

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Speaker 1: probably six three pounds are gonna run the four fourth.

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Speaker 1: I was surprised that, you know, he opts out in

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Speaker 1: the middle of the season. I thought he had a

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Speaker 1: little bit more to prove, and I thought he probably

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Speaker 1: needs to get a little bit bigger before he's really

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Speaker 1: a contributor at the NFL level. Six two pounds is

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Speaker 1: still a skinny dude at the receiver position, especially when

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Speaker 1: he said his releases weren't a strong point in college.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's why you're not really seeing him

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Speaker 1: mocked in a lot of first rounds, even though maybe

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Speaker 1: the physical talent is that of a first round type

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Speaker 1: of wide receiver. So even forgive that though when the

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Speaker 1: guys still only twenty years old, he is not a

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Speaker 1: He's not Davante Smith at twenty two years old. He's

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Speaker 1: not in jail models twenty two years old as well.

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Speaker 1: He's not that at that age and it's still productive

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Speaker 1: and at l s u oftense. So I do think

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Speaker 1: that because of the d wide receiver class, he falls

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Speaker 1: and so he may fall to them in the second round.

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Speaker 1: That would not surprise me whatsoever. Hey, Giant fans get

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Speaker 1: a newer Giants checking acount from Investors Bank with the

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Speaker 1: Giants brand, the debit card security features the discounts of

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00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:12,560
Speaker 1: the gihnts online shop. You can earn up the chonge

355
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,560
Speaker 1: of fifty bucks when you open an account Investors Bank

356
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,040
Speaker 1: dot com slash giantsman bred I say the New York

357
00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,480
Speaker 1: Giants in Quest Diagnostics wander fans to come back stronger

358
00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:21,160
Speaker 1: than ever. Now you can order you're on lab test

359
00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,880
Speaker 1: to Quest direct to get health answers you need most

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Speaker 1: All right, Mike, let's stock offensive line for us before

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Speaker 1: we go to defense. Besides Penny Sewell, is there anyone

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Speaker 1: else that, if he's sitting there for the Giants at eleven,

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Speaker 1: that you think might be worth that pick. I could

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Speaker 1: see going Rashauns later the Northwestern tackle slash guard and

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Speaker 1: maybe starting that guard earlier in his career, and then

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Speaker 1: if your tackles don't develop, kicking him out to tackle.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's such a deep class that I

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Speaker 1: don't want to say that's a reach at number eleven,

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Speaker 1: but that you're gonna find talent in the second round.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna find talent the third round because I think

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Speaker 1: I got There's eight backles in the top four d

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Speaker 1: the F draft board, I think all ten or within

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Speaker 1: the top fifty five, all the top ten tackles on

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Speaker 1: the PFF draft board. That's a lot of talent that

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Speaker 1: doesn't happen every single year, and so usually you see

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Speaker 1: office stacks get pushed up draft boards. I think this

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Speaker 1: year they may get pushed down a touch in terms

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Speaker 1: of there's just a lot of names to go around.

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Speaker 1: People feel comfortable if you're picking at fourteen, Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: can get a guy in the first round, is good.

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Speaker 1: But maybe you can get a guy in the second

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Speaker 1: round that's good too. I think that's going to be

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Speaker 1: the case in this draft class. So it is a

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Speaker 1: really deep death class and interior offensive lion class. So

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Speaker 1: if I were the Giants, I'd probably I in that

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Speaker 1: second third round of this year. All right, Now, let's

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Speaker 1: head over the defensive side of the ball. I watched

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Speaker 1: gregor Rousseau this morning because I wanted to talk to

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Speaker 1: you about him and I wanted to really get a

390
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Speaker 1: feel for for what he is. And I get through

391
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,520
Speaker 1: his first eighteen plays and I'm like, why is he

392
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,000
Speaker 1: lined up in those tackles on all his pressures. He's

393
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Speaker 1: running these wide loops and he's beating these guards that

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Speaker 1: just aren't athletic enough to block him. At the end

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Speaker 1: of the year, you saw more stuff off the edge.

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Speaker 1: But Mike, when I watched him, I gotta be honest,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure I saw that kind of burst off

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Speaker 1: the line of scrimmage that that you want consistently kind

399
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,720
Speaker 1: of stood up first, then he would go. You like

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Speaker 1: his size, his length is power. He does those things well.

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Speaker 1: But how do you guys view Rousso despite the fact

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Speaker 1: that fifteen sacks. I see him as a bit of

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Speaker 1: a raw prospect that still us to develop a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Is he or any of these other edge rushers in

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Speaker 1: this group you think real options for the giants value

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Speaker 1: wise at eleven, No Russo would scare me a todd

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Speaker 1: near at eleven because of what you mentioned, Mary. The

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Speaker 1: sacks were great, sax looks great, but the PFF grade

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Speaker 1: in terms of how is he consistently getting pressure was not.

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Speaker 1: It was those quick wins like you mentioned against guards

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Speaker 1: that really just could not deal with the fact that

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Speaker 1: he has these, you know, incredibly long arms and it

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Speaker 1: is fairly quick uh laterally that they just couldn't handle that.

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Speaker 1: But when he had to win against tackles, it was

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Speaker 1: not nearly as good produce nearly as much off the edge.

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Speaker 1: Kind of similar to like jadeveon Clowney that Jim Clowney

417
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Speaker 1: never was great one one again tackles, his best reps

418
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Speaker 1: always coming inst grard against centers and third downs. I

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Speaker 1: think that could be Rousseau's for best utilization at the

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Speaker 1: NFL level. But the fact that you're already pigeonholing a

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Speaker 1: guy into that when you want him to just be

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Speaker 1: able to win one on one against tackles, those are

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Speaker 1: the guys that you should be coming highly. So that's

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Speaker 1: what that's why I would scare me at eleven us

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Speaker 1: a physical freak. But there is a lot of physical

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Speaker 1: freaks at the edge position in this draft class to

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Speaker 1: where I don't think I'm gonna want to reach for

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Speaker 1: one at pick eleve them second round. Do you think

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Speaker 1: there could be an edge player that that might be

430
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,240
Speaker 1: more worth the value or they all gonna be the

431
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,359
Speaker 1: quity pays and those guys they're they're all gonna be

432
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,200
Speaker 1: gone by the time the Giants get up. I don't

433
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,400
Speaker 1: think they're gonna be gone because there's a ton of them.

434
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,200
Speaker 1: I think on our board right now we have Quitti

435
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,560
Speaker 1: Pay at eleven, Jason Oa of Penn State at twenty,

436
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,280
Speaker 1: Greg Russa at twenty three. The Miami guy is these

437
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,960
Speaker 1: Gelari from Georgia twenty five, Jalen Phillips from Miami A

438
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,879
Speaker 1: twenty eight, Carlos Bash and white Forest at thirty eight.

439
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:55,959
Speaker 1: Like all those guys would be great secondround. You can

440
00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:57,879
Speaker 1: telling me six guys are gonna come off the board.

441
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,719
Speaker 1: They might, I don't think it's gonna happened because none

442
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:02,639
Speaker 1: of those guys have really put it all together to

443
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,000
Speaker 1: be productive college players, even though they have all the

444
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:08,399
Speaker 1: tools you can even throw Jose Aside from Texas in there,

445
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,359
Speaker 1: Ronnie Perkins from Oklahoma As have all the athletic tools

446
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,640
Speaker 1: worthy of being drafted in the first round, but none

447
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,320
Speaker 1: of them were productive enough to really warrant it. So

448
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,119
Speaker 1: I think, yes, usually i'd say draft and edge rusher

449
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:21,960
Speaker 1: in the first round if you really want an edge rusher.

450
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 1: Talent doesn't last long. I think in this class, with

451
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,679
Speaker 1: how it is, you might see them kind of slipped

452
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:31,040
Speaker 1: down to the twenty to forty to fifty range Michael Parsons,

453
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,600
Speaker 1: How do you guys view him just in terms of

454
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,359
Speaker 1: where he fits is see an off ball linebacker? Is

455
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,800
Speaker 1: he a situational pass rushauran on third downs too? Where

456
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,680
Speaker 1: do you see him fitting in in a scheme, whether

457
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,119
Speaker 1: it's four three or three four Nickel packages whatever at

458
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,440
Speaker 1: the NFL level, Yeah, I think he's a plug in

459
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:54,159
Speaker 1: play Mike Linebecker. Guy is comfortable playing between the tackles already,

460
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,000
Speaker 1: which that was not a aah Simmons, And you don't

461
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,439
Speaker 1: have to carve out necessarily a role for him. An

462
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 1: ideal role would be a team that Blew says a

463
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 1: lot is probably best attribute is the way he comes

464
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,840
Speaker 1: downhill and attacks as a pass rusher. He could feasibly

465
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,440
Speaker 1: make the switch to edge rusher if he wanted to.

466
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,479
Speaker 1: He has that physical skill set. He is that dominant

467
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:14,200
Speaker 1: when he does get asked to rush the pastor and

468
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,920
Speaker 1: I think he even has said, like in interviews that

469
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,760
Speaker 1: he still considers himself a pass rusher at heart, and

470
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,159
Speaker 1: so he has that ferociousness to his game. When you

471
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,640
Speaker 1: see him take on blocks that part of his game,

472
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 1: which is rare to say from college linebacker, Everyone's like, oh,

473
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 1: can you take on blocks he translate to the NFL. No,

474
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,480
Speaker 1: Michael Parsons can already take on blocks that we don't

475
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,439
Speaker 1: have to worry about. But the coverage, is he going

476
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,040
Speaker 1: to be our hybrid coverage player that you're gonna move

477
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 1: to the slot, can run deep as the safety? I

478
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,720
Speaker 1: don't think so, But that's a rare role for a

479
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,040
Speaker 1: lot of defense is still around the NFL. It's kind

480
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 1: of not necessarily as in vogue as it is in college.

481
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 1: How about the cornerback position, Mike, I always find that

482
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,120
Speaker 1: to be a fairly volatile position in the draft. Even

483
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:58,560
Speaker 1: last year, Jeffrey Okuda, great prospect, tremendous player, struggled in

484
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 1: his rookie year. It happens with corner backs. When you

485
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 1: look at this class at the top, is it Caleb

486
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 1: Farley and then everybody else? I think Curtains kind of

487
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 1: close to him. Curtains not the athlete though that usually

488
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:13,639
Speaker 1: goes high in the draft. I think he's gonna run

489
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 1: four or five high four fives, And there's not a

490
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 1: lot of cornerbacks in recent history at the corner in

491
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:22,840
Speaker 1: the first round that ran in the above like a

492
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,240
Speaker 1: four or five five that just doesn't really happen because

493
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 1: speed is so valuable at that position. You just have

494
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,640
Speaker 1: to At some point you're gonna get you're gonna lose

495
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,680
Speaker 1: a step and you're gonna have to make up that step.

496
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 1: Caleb Farley can make up that step. Patrick Surtain I

497
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 1: worry about So I do think from that perspective the

498
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,960
Speaker 1: physical tools, no one really holds a candle to what

499
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 1: Caleb Farley breaks the table. He is a rare athlete.

500
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 1: He is kind of an ideal specimen at cornerback. Certain

501
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,119
Speaker 1: is just very technically sound, like he's been watching NFL

502
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: football since he was a baby, you know, since he

503
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 1: came out the womb. That guy has learned a thing

504
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,199
Speaker 1: or two from his father and is so good at

505
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 1: the line of scrimmage and makes up for it. So

506
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 1: I think you're still getting a good player. Maybe you're

507
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 1: just not chasing the same sort of quote unquote upside

508
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 1: that Farling might have. Is that a scheme fit thing too,

509
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 1: Where if you're gonna play a lot of men and

510
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 1: press and stuff, you know guys that you want to

511
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,919
Speaker 1: chase all around the field, you want Farley, but Curtains

512
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 1: maybe more of that. Keep the guy in front of

513
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 1: you break on the ball cover three type of guy. Yeah,

514
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 1: I think certain would be exceptional, and to cover three

515
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 1: scheme somewhere where it can take advantage of just his

516
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 1: instincts and field for the game and not necessarily be

517
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 1: putting him on island because I think that's where he

518
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 1: could struggle. Whereas Farley, I wouldn't even pigeon hole him

519
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 1: into that. I think he's good enough and honestly played

520
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 1: mostly off zone coverage at Virginia Tech. But I think

521
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 1: he's just has the body type to do really in

522
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,200
Speaker 1: sort of physical skills to do whatever you want. Where

523
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 1: do you guys like the depth of this draft class

524
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 1: the most? Positionally, like, I think the position that has

525
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 1: the most depth that you just don't see his offensive tackle.

526
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: Rarely have we ever put this many tackles in the

527
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 1: first two rounds. It's just it's a position at one.

528
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: Usually guys don't come into the NFL giants fans know

529
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 1: all too well coming to the NFL and play great

530
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,360
Speaker 1: right away. It's just a steep learning curve. No matter

531
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: how good you are in college and how physically down

532
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 1: then you are in too, It's not a position. A

533
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: lot of you get a lot of talent and an

534
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,119
Speaker 1: given draft class because there's only so few guys that

535
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,120
Speaker 1: are six ft five with thirty three plus inch arms,

536
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: that have feet that can move in mirror a pound

537
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 1: edge rush like that. Those guys are just rare. And

538
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 1: so the fact that this class has, like I said,

539
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,399
Speaker 1: probably about ten guys we consider first or second rounders,

540
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: it's pretty special for a position that I think every

541
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 1: team in the NFL needs right now. You know, there's

542
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 1: not a lot of teams that are set at offensive tackle,

543
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 1: and so that's the one position i'd say is probably

544
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 1: the most special class year. On your final question, Mike,

545
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 1: and this is more of a process question for you guys.

546
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 1: I like to look at these time events as thresholds

547
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 1: where you want guys to just meet certain thresholds sitions.

548
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 1: All right, I'm fine with this guy, hen he met

549
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: my threshold. But to the point you made before, you know,

550
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 1: they can have guys running thirty nine yard dashes, They

551
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 1: can have guys running downhill on basically on concrete to

552
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 1: get better times. How are you guys at PFF going

553
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: to absorb the time data the you know, even height, weight, length,

554
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 1: you know all that stuff that you guys put into

555
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: your cauldron to to come out with your final evaluation

556
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 1: this year, given we're not going to have the NFL

557
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 1: combine with the unit from Environment. I know we're gonna

558
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: have Excos and all that stuff doing their stuff, But

559
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 1: how are you going to absorb this stuff and really

560
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: take it seriously this year given the unique circumstances. Yeah,

561
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 1: I mean, the nice thing is we do have historical

562
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: combine data as well as historical pro day data to

563
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 1: give a adjustment. You know, the pro day report times

564
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: are always better, but you can look at historical times

565
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: and say they are ex percentage better historically to where

566
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 1: you get a time from the guy from his personal

567
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 1: workout whatever, you had that adjustment and then that's what

568
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: you roll us. So I do thing. There's still ways

569
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 1: to dig down to the nitty gritty. It's a guy

570
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: has a gives puts out a film for dr Dash.

571
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: You can do that off the you know, off the

572
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 1: sort of the time stamps on the film. You can

573
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 1: actually do it. You don't have to trust that he

574
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: said his stopwatched that you're on the floor two whatever.

575
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: So I think that's what we're going to have to

576
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 1: do this year. And I think there is ways to

577
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: get real. Actually testing data is still done, uh without

578
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: it being you know, adjusted or being bad data. My

579
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: good stuff, my friend. We're gonna miss seeing you in

580
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: Indy this year, God willing, hopefully next year. Uh, stay

581
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 1: safe and warm out there in Cincinnati. We really appreciate

582
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 1: the time today for sure. Thanks John. That's my grannar Lee,

583
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 1: draft analysts for Pro Football Focus. We thank him for

584
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: joining us on today's episode of the John Suttle Podcast.

585
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: I'm John Schmulk. Don't forget. You can find this podcast

586
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: and all of our podcasts on the Giants Podcast. Now

587
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: we're presented by Investors Bank for my grint around. John

588
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: Schmulk will see you next time on the John Tuttle.

589
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 1: Stay safe out there, everyone,