1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: M well, yeah, first day I ever mad him. That's 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: what my buddy said that he was a game warden, 3 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: and I think, yeah, he said, yeah, I have guys 4 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: good right in and live with them. You know what 5 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, Yeah, that's what we do. Wow. We're on 6 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: our third and final episode of our Secret Agent Man 7 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: series with undercover Ohio wildlife agent RT Stewart. On part one, 8 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: we learned about the big picture mechanics of undercover stings 9 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: and how RT was a pioneer in the early nineteen 10 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: nineties for the Ohio Department of Natural Resources. We learned 11 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,279 Speaker 1: that humans don't do well with chronic stress and discuss 12 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: the personal toll placed on undercover agents and their families 13 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: because of it, And in a colimactic moment, I asked 14 00:00:52,760 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: RT a cutting question, Was it worth it? You're too good? No? No, 15 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: it was no. I look back at it. If I 16 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: had to do it over again and I knew what 17 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 1: I knew right now, i'd to say no. But at 18 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: the time is the only thing I new and the 19 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: only thing I wanted to do. On the second episode, 20 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:22,680 Speaker 1: RT told us about his biggest thing, Operation Redbud, where 21 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: twenty six men were convicted of over two hundred and 22 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: seventy five wildlife crimes. They were taken by total surprise. Probably, 23 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: I think we ended up resting that day people. That's 24 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: a major it was, and at that particular time, it 25 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: was the largest turkey poaching ring in the country. And 26 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: on this third episode, we're gonna hear about some close 27 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: calls where Urt was almost found out and explore the 28 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: idea of human instinct or having a sixth sense or 29 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: a premonition, but also how that compares with just pure wit. 30 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: Many believed decision making is purely based on observable data, 31 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: but it sounds like some of our subconscious decision making 32 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: mechanisms are hardwired into our d n A. We're gonna 33 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: hear about that from Dr Matthew Sharp's from the University 34 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: of California and Fresno. So we're gonna explore some of 35 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: Art's best stories of how he handled trouble and how 36 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: he used this uncanny wit and intuition to de escalate situations. 37 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: I really doubt you're gonna want to miss this one. 38 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: RT is calling a bird and uh, the other officer 39 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,679 Speaker 1: just happens to let it slip out. Good calling RT. 40 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: So within a few seconds he comes back. Yeah, that's 41 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: why they call me a real turkey RT. Just that quick. 42 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: He smoothed it over so quickly and so well that 43 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: there was no question. And he did that time after 44 00:02:54,120 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: time after time. My name is Clay Nukelem and this 45 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 1: is the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten 46 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places, and where 47 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: we'll tell the story of Americans who lived their lives 48 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: close to the land. Presented by f HF Gear, American 49 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: made purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to 50 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: be as rugged as the places we explore. The art 51 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: is working undercover at Lake Erie and the uh the 52 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: two main fish up there that people are poaching as 53 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: walleyes and yellow perch. So people are coming to Art. 54 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: They're selling him illegal walleyes, illegal perch, and at one 55 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: point again one of the bad guys accuses him of 56 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: UH being a wildlife officer, and he's got a somehow 57 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: get out of it and prove that he's not so. 58 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: At that time, and he wore a white cowboy hat 59 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: a lot, especially when he gets dressed up, which I 60 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: think is very symbolic. You know, the guy with the 61 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: white cowboy hats the good guy, but that particular day, 62 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: he had a wire under his cowboy hat. Okay, so 63 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: he's recording this conversation, and so now he's got to 64 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 1: put on the front that he's not the wildlife officer. 65 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: So he accuses the other guy of being one, and 66 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 1: he said, he said, and I'll prove it. Let's strip 67 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: Let's strip down and we'll see who's wearing a wire 68 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:44,799 Speaker 1: who's not. So he strips down to his underwear and 69 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: there's other people watching, and he demands the other guy 70 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: do the same thing. They both look at each other, 71 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 1: they both don't see a wire, and they go back 72 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 1: to being buddies a drinking beer. The only catches RT 73 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 1: had the wire in the in his cowboy hat, which 74 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: he never took off. That's a great story. So that's 75 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: the types of things that when I talked about how 76 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: he could react so quickly, very very few people couldn't 77 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 1: do that. He did an absolutely a great job. That 78 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: was author Chip Grows. He wrote the book about Artie 79 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 1: Stewart's career called Poachers Were My Prey. Aside from cruising 80 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: around in the poach Coach is four by four undercover 81 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: van equipped with state of the art surveillance equipment. During 82 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: Artis time undercover, he was a master at thinking on 83 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: his feet and appearing to keep his cool under pressure. However, 84 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: just under the surface was the constant stress of being 85 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: found out by the bad guys, causing Art to live 86 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 1: in a constant state of fight or fight. Human response 87 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: to stress and unusual situations is interesting to analyze because 88 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: it's during these times that the veneers of our personality 89 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: or any cheap socially accepted front we put on our 90 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: cleared away and we see what's really inside of us. 91 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: I often find myself disappointed when the outer layer of 92 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: this human shape puppet I live inside of is stripped off. 93 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 1: Often I over calculate my abilities to respond to stress. However, 94 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: when the systems are overridden and we flow on autopilot, 95 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 1: amazing things can happen. Sometimes. It's incredible humans have been 96 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: tropping around and getting themselves into pickles for so long. 97 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: I wonder if we have mechanisms at the DNA level 98 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: helping us. We've all heard about humans having a sixth sense, 99 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: but is that even real? I need to find out, And, 100 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: like I've said so many times before, I'm interested in 101 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 1: things that control us that we're completely unaware of. Here's 102 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: Dr Matthew Sharps of the University of California, Fresno. He's 103 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 1: analyzing arties stripping off his clothes at a party and 104 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,799 Speaker 1: demanding that the bad guy do the same. Dr Sharp's 105 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: is going to talk to us about script violations. That's 106 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: really brilliant. Yeah, because when you're suddenly surprised like that, 107 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: you go immediately into a very high level of fight 108 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: or flight, and that means a lot of the blood 109 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: resources you'd have for your prefrontal cortex and part of 110 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: the brain you actually think, the part of the brain 111 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: that is involved the cognitive flexibility. Sudden you don't have that. 112 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: So what are you gonna do a lot of people 113 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: suddenly they start stammering you, I'm not one. Maybe maybe 114 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: you're one. I'm not one, And suddenly there they've had it. 115 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: But that idea of shifting it into not only like 116 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: the rage like my friend in the anti drug world, 117 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: but into something very surprising. This this might be interested 118 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: in human beings often out in fact, pretty much on automatic. 119 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: You know, if I pick up a coffee cuple I'm 120 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: doing right now, it's not it's not something that I'm 121 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: thinking about. I just do it. But you have what 122 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: we call a script, the automatic automated sequences behaviors. Now, 123 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: if we say, okay, fair enough, here's a guy who doesn't, 124 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: somebody whoses it the other way. Okay, he has breakfast 125 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: before he gets up every day? Is he Richard poor? 126 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: Everybody knows he's Wretch's butler brings it to him. Right, Well, 127 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: here's a guy who had breakfast before you get up today, 128 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: but only today? Okay, is he's sick or well, everybody 129 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: goes sick. Now, nobody's been asking those questions before, but 130 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: we all know them because of the automatic scripts that 131 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: we deal with in our in our world. So that 132 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: what the challenge did was just brilliant. Okay, Because suddenly, 133 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: when you're challenged like that, stripping off all your clothes 134 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: and demanding that everybody else does too, that's a huge 135 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: script violation. It's a script interruption. You turn the tables, 136 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: the bad guys don't know what to do with you. 137 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: Then this sounds like a superpower being able to scramble 138 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: the bad guys social scripts, so they don't know what 139 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: to do with you. Who knew the bad guys were 140 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 1: such delicate social flowers. Social scripts are so deeply ingrained 141 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 1: in us that we don't even recognize we abide by 142 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 1: them until someone breaks one. The script change can be 143 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: so destabilizing that it re routes the focus of the moment. 144 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: You might try this in a benign situation when someone 145 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: confronts you on something. Do something surprising and put a 146 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: subtle question that demands response back from them. Don't be 147 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: a jerk or be deceitful. But sometimes people want something 148 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: from you that you can't give them, and you need 149 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: a way out. It's worth a shot. Our fight or 150 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: flight responses, though often not consciously calculated, are usually connected 151 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 1: back to our training, whether formal or informal. After interviewing 152 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: our Tea and seeing how many dangerous situations he was in, 153 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:50,199 Speaker 1: I wondered if he was ever in any physical altercations 154 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 1: like fistfights. So that's exactly what I asked him. Our 155 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 1: t in this next section is going to refer to 156 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: an article that was written by Chip Gross in The 157 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: Midnighteteam nineties about Ohio's new undercover Wildlife Department. On episode one, 158 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: Chip told how the bad guys showed RT the actual 159 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: magazine article when he was undercover got him in some trouble. 160 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: Here's our team. Did you ever get in a fistfight 161 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: or any kind of physical altercation? Just in the rough 162 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: life that you had to live? I realized your your 163 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: cover never got busted, never got busted. But did you ever? 164 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 1: I had a couple of times where they were they 165 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: a matter of fact that that letter that the article 166 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,719 Speaker 1: about undercover brought it up. Well, yeah, the first day 167 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: I ever made him. That's what my buddy said, that 168 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: he was a game warden. Really nothing. Yeah, I said, 169 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: I don't even like to be called that anymore. You know, 170 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: they never bring him back up. But you know, I 171 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: felt I had enough confidence I could say that to him, 172 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: And he said, yeah, guys, go right in and live 173 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: with them. You know what I'm thinking, Yeah, that's what 174 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 1: we do. But did I ever in any uh? Now? 175 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: Would I have if I had to? Absolutely? I wasn't 176 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: afraid to fight. I was fairly good shape, fairly good size, 177 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: so I didn't get picked on too much. But I've 178 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 1: been confronted a few times, but I was always talking 179 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: my way out of it. Yeah, And I'll give you 180 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: one example was he was drunk drinking and I was 181 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 1: there and he apparently didn't like me or whatever. He said, Uh, 182 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: I believe I can take you. I said, you're pretty good, 183 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: so hard, but I believe I can take you. I said, 184 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: you ain't. Yeah, I'm gonna try you for the night's over. 185 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: You know, I'm think of, oh boy, here we go. 186 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: And I just said, I'll tell you what, buddy, I 187 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: guarantee you'll probably win, but you'll know you've been in 188 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: a fight. He never never said that that. Those words 189 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: just de escalated the situation. And you were kind of 190 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: a master at that. I didn't know it was the time, 191 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: but I look back at it now and I think, yeah, 192 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: that's pretty good. That's pretty quick because there's a hundred 193 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: of different things that you could have said that and 194 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 1: that gave him an out. Yeah, that you gave him 195 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: some honor. You absolutely like you probably wouldn't beat me, 196 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 1: but you didn't. But you're not. You're so let him. Yea, 197 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: I'm going to use that style. Yeah. Yeah, and it worked. 198 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: It work. It gives him an owl, you know, because 199 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: you know, would you have won, probably not. You probably 200 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: would have taken A wise dude named Solomon, said to 201 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: be one of the wisest men of the ancient world 202 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: once said, a gentle answer turns away wrath, but a 203 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: harsh word stirs up anger. One version of the quote says, 204 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: a gentle answer deflects anger, but harsh words make tempers flair. 205 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: This is exactly what Artie did, and he threw in 206 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: a little extra so he didn't sound so much like 207 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: a sissy. Artie, however, was pretty sure he would have 208 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: won the fight. And here's why he had so much confidence. 209 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: Let's just say he was experienced. I remember when they 210 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: interviewed me, they said, uh, to take this job. I 211 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 1: had a little experience in that fighting. When they did 212 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: my background investigation, they said, also, i've found out you 213 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: like to fight. I said, no, Now you got me 214 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: mixing up with my brothers, which they was big into fighting. 215 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: He said, all right, so how many fights you've been 216 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,079 Speaker 1: and I'm keeping mud. I was thirty five. How many 217 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 1: fight you been into in your lifetime and I'm a 218 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: lifetime I'm thinking school yachts, you know. Yeah, I said, 219 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe forty fistfights, fistfight, real, real fistfight, 220 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 1: joking around, Okay, I didn't think nothing like man, I'm 221 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: I'm the I'm the gentle one of the brothers. I 222 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 1: was my brother. They go to town just to fight, 223 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: you know, but I mean, seriously, my brothers were bad 224 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: about it. And that's when I said, you got me 225 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: mixing up with my brothers. And when I told him 226 00:13:57,960 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: forty and I went home. I told my girlfriend at 227 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: that time, I told her about the interview, and so 228 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: fortunate she said, I said, well, yeah, did you got 229 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: any idea how many men go through life and never 230 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: been in a fight in their life. I just thought 231 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,719 Speaker 1: that was natural. You thought that was normal. Well, I 232 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: can tell you that's not normal. Well I discovered that 233 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: after that. I can say that's so I wasn't a 234 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: rookie at it. Yeah, you know, that's probably to what 235 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: gave you some confidence. I mean, and not that physical 236 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: strength is gonna really be what somebody would need. But 237 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: you knew you could take care of yourself. And it 238 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: goes back to originally what you told me, that you 239 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: had to be self sufficient. And you know you're in 240 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 1: you're in the roughness of the rough places with criminals, 241 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: people plotting to kill other I mean, this is like, 242 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: this is a criminal world. That's a criminal world. You're 243 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: living in and you're supposed to be the criminal. But 244 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: if they find out who you are, your life is 245 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: a jeopardy. And I never thought anything about that. I 246 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: never thought. I just felt that I could take care 247 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: of myself. I got into a situation. Yeah, I remember 248 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: Chip asked me one time, did you carry a gun? No? No, 249 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: I never carried a gun, But I said, He said, 250 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: what was somebody doesn't pulled a gun on you? I said, well, 251 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: it depending on the circumstances. I said, if a man 252 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: we're sitting here across the table or in proc's close 253 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: proximity of that individual, and that man pulled a gun 254 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: on me, I had trained and was confident enough in 255 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: myself that I would own that gun. I had that 256 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: much confidence in training, in in weapon takeaway that I 257 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: would own that from I'd take it from me. There 258 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: was no question in my mind I could take it 259 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: from me. But now, I said, if I walked in 260 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: the door from here to there and the guy's got 261 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: a gun on me, I wouldn't want to call on 262 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: tactically disengaging going back out the door, because you know 263 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: you ain't got a win sace. We're within arms reaching 264 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: somebody with a gun. I'm taking it, I'm owning it, 265 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: and that that kind of confidence and even that you 266 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: have to this day is what it would take to 267 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: be successful in that kind of situation, you know. And 268 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: and when I hear you talk like that, I think 269 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: sometimes about these uh like active shooters that are that 270 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: are happening now, and how a lot of guys concealed 271 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: carry and the potential for having to use your concealed 272 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: carry to remedy a situation. I realized, there's so many wild, 273 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: possible things that could happen. But I think most of 274 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: us that aren't in law enforcement probably when it came 275 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: down to it, we'd like to think we could do it, 276 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: but maybe we'd lack of confidence to be able to. 277 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: And I had I had raised with guns all my life. 278 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: I had competed in combat shooting. I was very proficient, 279 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: and you know, I can't say what would have happened 280 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: had I got in a gun battle, and just like combat, 281 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: you don't know what you're gonna do. But I felt 282 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: in my mind that I had enough confidence that I 283 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: could control about any situation. Training builds confidence, and confidence 284 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: is extremely important in all areas of life. Research the 285 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: jest that confident people tend to be healthier and live longer, 286 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: and it's likely correlated to the effects of the positive 287 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 1: emotions associated with confidence, happiness, optimism, and satisfaction. I asked 288 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: Chip Grows to tell me one of his favorite stories 289 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: about RT and I think this one will help us 290 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 1: see some of Art's instincts in action, which will lead 291 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: us to a bigger question. And here's one of the 292 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: examples from the book. Uh, he would play cards two 293 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: or three times a week with this group of poachers. 294 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: They're playing cards one night, and you know how conversation goes. Well, 295 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: there had been a bald eagle shot along the Ohio 296 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: River and the FEDS were in on the investigation. Of course, 297 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: the Ohio Divisional Wildlife which on the investigation. Everybody's trying 298 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: to figure out who shot this eagle. And the bad 299 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: guys were talking about this and didn't directly say to Urt, 300 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: but they said, you know, I think I think I 301 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: knew who it is. And they were trying to draw 302 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: Ourt out there, thinking if he's an undercover officer, he's 303 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 1: gonna want to know who kills this eagle. So they 304 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: didn't really know who killed the eagle. No, I don't that. 305 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: So they're watching for his reaction, and he wanted to 306 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: ask in the worst way, Okay, who is it? But 307 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: something told him, some intuition told him, don't say anything, 308 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: just keep playing cards and just fluff it off. And 309 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: that's what he did. So it comes back then a 310 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: few weeks later from the bad guys that, Hey, you 311 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 1: remember we were playing cards a couple of weeks ago. 312 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: We were talking about the eagle. He said, yeah, he said, uh, 313 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: you know, we were. We thought maybe we're a game 314 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: war and we're just testing you that night. That's the 315 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: kind of instincts he has, okay, And I don't know 316 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: where it comes from. It's probably a combination of now 317 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 1: tro ability and just working on the job and knowing 318 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: when to push for information when not. But that's the 319 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: kind of person here. You can't teach that, I don't think, 320 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: so you can't teach that kind of instinct. This brings 321 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: up an interesting question about the source of what we 322 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: often call intuition or a sixth sense or a premonition, 323 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: basically making a decision based upon data that doesn't exist. 324 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: Dr Sharp's is about to tell us that some of 325 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: our instinct is actually hardwired into our d n A. 326 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: But let me say that even with this information, I 327 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: absolutely believe in the supernatural as it pertains to a 328 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: humans connection to a divine source to get information that 329 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: can't be found from anything in the Earth. Western thinkers 330 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 1: often frown on and belittle things that science can't prove, 331 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: but I think that rationale is hogwash. Sign it's by 332 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: its very definition, is only geared to explain the physical, 333 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: observable and repeatable things in the universe. And the stuff 334 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: I'm talking about isn't that. But I have personally experienced 335 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: the delivery of information impossible for me to have known 336 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: and disconnected from any other piece of earthly knowledge that 337 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: came directly from the great creator of this universe, the 338 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 1: l haf A himself. I believe that with all my heart. However, 339 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: I do believe that some of our intuition, premonition, our 340 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: sixth sense comes from stuff that's deeply hardwired into us 341 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: because we've been rambling around on this planet for a 342 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: long time, and to understand where the origin of some 343 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,679 Speaker 1: of this stuff comes from, we have to look at 344 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: the very fabric of our DNA. Here's Dr Sharp's with 345 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 1: some info on how humans respond to animal tracks and 346 00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: looking in the eyes of serial killers. Stay with me, Yeah, 347 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 1: because he had broke his own script. There. If you're 348 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: an investigator and the bad guys dropped something like that 349 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: in your lap, there's a tendency that maybe you circumventent, 350 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 1: but you want it. You want to find that out. 351 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: It's amazing how much behavior is under the surface that 352 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 1: we don't even know about me. But I did a 353 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: paper some years or twenty years ago. Good I got 354 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: interested in the psychology of hunting, and so I started 355 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: asking us, Okay, what's the most complicated thing hunters do? 356 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: What would you expect to have hardwired into the brain? 357 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 1: The most complicated part of hunting is tracking. So would 358 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 1: it help in the ancient world to have animal tracks? 359 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 1: Though in your head would have to have a sort 360 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: of be born with encyclopedia of animal tracks. Now it 361 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 1: wouldn't because savor tian tigers don't longer exist, mammoths no 362 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: longer exist. To be worthless, what you need is the 363 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: ability to learn animal tracks. Well, I got urban college students. 364 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: They have in general no experience, interest, or understanding of animals, hunting, track, 365 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: or even being outside. They still learn animal tracks three 366 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: times better and faster than other equally unfamiliar stimulating human 367 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 1: beings are geared to learn some of the scripts of hunting. 368 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: We did another one, another study is not not not 369 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 1: going to con gear to hunting, but serial killers. You 370 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 1: want to avoid them until you invent cops. Okay. All 371 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: we do is show the eyes from the eyebrows at 372 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: the top of the cheekbones of serial killers and non 373 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 1: serial killers to people. They didn't recognize them to serial killers, 374 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: but they didn't like them, they didn't trust them, they 375 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: didn't want to work with them, just by looking in 376 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 1: the eyes. There's all these audible autobi Oh yeah, yeah. 377 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: I've pushed that as both as a search paper and 378 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: in my blog to forensic view. There's all these automated 379 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: things in us that we expect other people to behave 380 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: in a certain way. We expect that if we behave 381 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:44,479 Speaker 1: in a certain way, the other people will treat us 382 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: in the way we want. And in the undercover role, 383 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: much of that is reverse. It feels like there's a 384 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: whole bunch of data and intel working inside of us. 385 00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: Just because we are essentially a highly successful and I 386 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: believe we're much more than animals. I do, but but 387 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: from a scientific perspective, where a very successful mammal on 388 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: planet Earth. There's a bunch of stuff that's flowing through 389 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: us that we don't even understand that we do all 390 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: the time. And people describe it as like a sixth sense. 391 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: But maybe it's more mechanical, more explainable than just this 392 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 1: kind of mystery of having a sixth sense. A lot 393 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: of the stuff is under sort of you know, it's 394 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 1: automated in us. It's not conscious, but we come up 395 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: with things. Professor's how I got interested in the hunting 396 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,360 Speaker 1: stuff from personal experience, but also from a professor named 397 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: Gordon Orients. And all he did was measured the distance 398 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: between people and trees in paintings. And of course it's 399 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: pretty much random as either where the artists wants somewhere 400 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: they are where they actually saw. But if it's plenty 401 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: of sunset, Oriens found the artists wants to paint people 402 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: close to trees. Well, what happened at sunset Ascipe it 403 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: gets dark is the back of the day the big 404 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,639 Speaker 1: cats came out. There were pretty are cats that are 405 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: extinct now thank god, that specialized in eating humans or 406 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 1: human ancests. Yes, today cats are nine inches tall. You know, 407 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: you call them Mrs Fluffkins getting fishies back in the 408 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: day when they were in Savard tooth. Yeah, like a 409 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: lot of big cats can climb better than we are, 410 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: but a lot of them more heavier than our ancestors. 411 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: And there are no danger now. But you still have 412 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: you still loving you know, put a painting on the wall. 413 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,439 Speaker 1: You want the people of trees pretty those together? If 414 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: it's since that was what I didn't discovery, that was 415 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 1: discovery Gordon orients the artists want to sell paintings. People 416 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: tend to buy paintings of if there is a sunset 417 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: and there are people of trees, and if they seem 418 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: to want to have the trees and the people pretty 419 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: close together. What is what Orients found the painters doing. 420 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: We've got to rehash the three things that Dr Sharp 421 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,959 Speaker 1: said because they're incredibly interesting. He said that humans are 422 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,479 Speaker 1: geared to learn some of the scripts of hunting at 423 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: a DNA level. We're hardwired to be able to identify 424 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,479 Speaker 1: and remember animal tracks three times better and faster than 425 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: other unfamiliar shapes. That's mind blowing. Secondly, he talked about 426 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,439 Speaker 1: our ability to know if we can trust someone by 427 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: just looking at their eyes. This is scientific research proven 428 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 1: this stuff. Think about the nuance differences in people's eyes. 429 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: How could we possibly discern so much information from a glance? 430 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: Is that the pupils or how wide people open their eyes, 431 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: or how long they maintain eye contact. There are only 432 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 1: so many variables of imagery that create the visible look 433 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 1: of the eye, but it tells us a lot. The 434 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: third thing he talked about was an innate desire to 435 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: be near cover at sunset. He basically said, if you're 436 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: an artist and are painting humans at sunset on a 437 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: natural landscape, you better put them near trees if you 438 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: want to sell that painting. We all subconsciously know a 439 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: key part of surviving on planet Earth is being near 440 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: cover once it gets dark, and even in art, we 441 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,920 Speaker 1: lean towards things that make us feel secure. Now that 442 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: is fascinating and points back to our hunter gatherer roots. 443 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: These three things don't, really, though, give us any answers 444 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 1: when we look at a career of somebody like Artie Stewart, 445 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: who had this uncanny instinct to evade bad guys, but 446 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: it does tell us that the answers are often more 447 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: complex than we might have thought. So here's another great 448 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: story of art getting out of trouble. I count this 449 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: one to pure wit. Here's Chip. He and another undercover officer, 450 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: a younger officer are out hunting. Turkey is illegally with 451 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: the bad guy. Okay, so Urt is uh calling a bird, 452 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: and uh the other officer just happens to let it 453 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: slip out. Good calling Urt, And he was caught in 454 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: the moment and he was excited. Good on our t 455 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: And of course RT doesn't want to be called that, 456 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,479 Speaker 1: so within a few seconds he comes back. Yeah, that's 457 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 1: why they call me real turkey. RT. Just that quick, 458 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: just just to come take note of it, maybe for 459 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 1: a few seconds, but uh, yeah, he smoothed it over 460 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: so quickly and so well that there was no question. 461 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: And he did that time after time after time. Turkey. Yeah, 462 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 1: So that's why I'm talking about. That's how good he was, 463 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: and very very few people can do that. So we 464 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: were very fortunate in Ohio to have him on our side. 465 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: He could have been on the other side really easily, 466 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: but uh, he was. He was a pioneer in Ohio 467 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: as to what he did, and many officers have followed 468 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: in his footsteps since and I think the undercover unit 469 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: in Ohio is much in is in debt for what 470 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: he did. You may remember from the past episodes, RT 471 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: was one of the first undercover agents working in Ohio 472 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: trying to catch wildlife violators. Now, some of these tactics 473 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: are understood and agents are trained to do him. But 474 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: Urt was flowing off pure instinct that came from living 475 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: a diverse life of working in coal mines, being an 476 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: outlaw himself in his early life, and just being an 477 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: authentic rural Southeast Ohio broke. But he also had an 478 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: intangible thing that can't be taught. You've just got to 479 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: be born with him. I want to hear RT tell 480 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: a story about a case that he worked, which we 481 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: haven't talked about yet. So the guy he's gonna talk 482 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: about is not target too, but he's gonna talk about 483 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: a guy that he became pretty good friends with, so 484 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: much that this guy tried to hook up OURT with 485 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 1: his sister and RT knew that this was trouble and 486 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: so one night and the heat of the moment, he 487 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: found the perfect way to blow up this would be relationship. 488 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: But first he'll tell us a little bit about the 489 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: suspect and for all your parents out there, this story 490 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: is probably a PG thirteen story Feller doing another operation. 491 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: I've become very close to him, and he had children 492 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: as also, and I always bring him candy and different things, 493 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: and he would tell me things about the personal life 494 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: that they probably shouldn't be telling. But we've become very close. 495 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: He was a nice guy. He only had an eighth 496 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: grade education. I did not take advantage of him by 497 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: degrading him. I treated him as a human being. And 498 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: uh during the take, and he called me buddy Bale. 499 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: My name at that time was Bill Stone. And he 500 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: borrowed money from borrowing money from me, everybody, and he 501 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: always paid you back. That was another thing I told. 502 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: I told my boss. He didn't know I was doing. 503 00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: My boss didn't. I told him later. I said, hey, 504 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: he paid his gas bill all winner. He said what 505 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: I said? He had asked me if the borrow money 506 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: to pay the gas bill, and you know he's got kids, 507 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: and I said, I'd blown him the money, and and 508 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: every weekend whenever his wife would get paid, he'd help. 509 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: He'd called me up and say, buddy, Bill, come down, 510 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: said I forget her names, and she gets paid and 511 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: we'll pay you. He was good, good for his word, 512 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: good for him, good for his word on that they 513 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: paid me in wouldn't wasn't no sense to tell him 514 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: my boss at the time. And when when he found 515 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: out you were undercover? What was his response? The guys 516 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: that took him down, they he asked him who it 517 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: was or whatever, and he says, and he told him 518 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: they told him that was Bill and big buddy Bill, 519 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: and he broke down a third cry. That hurt him 520 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: that bad. And I felt sad for him or sorry 521 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: for him. He because he wasn't the money number one 522 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: person I was after. He was just he was an 523 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: excuse to get to the number one person. He just 524 00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: tapped me getting hooked up with me. But yeah, I 525 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: felt sorry for him. He's having a rough time anyhow. 526 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: But I had a job to do, and you know, 527 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: to do it, I had to do it, all right. 528 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: You were gonna tell me about this lady that propositioned you. 529 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: It was his sister said that we've got my sister's 530 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: coming in. I've been telling her all about you, and 531 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: she wants to meet me. And and they were the ones, 532 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: they were the ones that I let read the compensation 533 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: papers and stuff on my injury. So they thought you 534 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: had a lot of money. Oh yeah, And he said 535 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: apparently he'd been talking talking me up to his sister 536 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: and said, mean she she wants to meet you. You'd 537 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: be perfect match for my sister. And I'm going on, 538 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: how do I get out of this? I said, she'll 539 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: be in this weekend. Uh. Boy, We're sitting at a 540 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: bar and I said no, and there's another guy there 541 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: with us, and I said, you know I got hurt 542 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,239 Speaker 1: in the coal mine. Yeah, and that was a real 543 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: part of your story. That was a real part of that. 544 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: You've already told him he got hurt. You can probably 545 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: going too detail, then go in detailed. I told him 546 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: I got my which I did. I got I got 547 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: covered up in the coal mine and hurt my rib 548 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: on my back and my hip and that actually happened. 549 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: I actually it's true story. And uh, but I didn't 550 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: tell him the rest. How I come up with this, 551 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: I have no idea one man. Yeah, but I know 552 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: that if I had told him I had an operation 553 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: my back or something. And if we're in camp and 554 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: take my shirt off, there's usually a scar or something, 555 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: you know, there's usually you gotta have you kind of 556 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: think ahead, you know that. So I'm thinking, how do 557 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: I get out of this. I'm sitting there and I said, now, Leonard, 558 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: I want to tell you something, but everybody don't need 559 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: to know this. And he said, come here. He gets 560 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: in every close. I'm holding my head down. I said, 561 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: you know I got hurt in the coal mine. You, 562 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: I said, but I didn't tell you that the whole story. 563 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: I said, it's it's kind of embarrassing. You know, what's 564 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: that be? You know I like to chase women and 565 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: everything like that. But I said, I can't do nothing. 566 00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: What I said, Yeah, I lost my my nuts. What Yeah, 567 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: that was part of my and U. I said, it's 568 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: very embarrassing. But I said, nobody knows that. So will 569 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: you please keep out a secret? I said, how I 570 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: was able to do it? I had tears coming down. Yeah, 571 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: not one time after that did He never mentioned his sister. 572 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: Well that's a good thing, right, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, 573 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: and it worked. While you just came up with that. 574 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: Come up with that. It de escalated the situation. That 575 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: was what Dr Sharps would call a script change, and 576 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: a wild one at that. It was something that no 577 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: one was expecting and took the emphasis off of what 578 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 1: everyone was focused on. The only reason I knew about 579 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: RT was through the book Poachers Were My Prey by 580 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: Chip Gross. The book is written in the first person, 581 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: meaning in artis words, but Chip is the one that 582 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: wrote it. You can order this book off Amazon and 583 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: it's a fun read that goes into much more detailed 584 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: than we could get into on this podcast. Ourt tells 585 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: about his top ten operations, and all of them are 586 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: full of excitement and discussed as you see how criminals 587 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: sought to take advantage of the system, but you also 588 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: see the fascinating ways in which our t infiltrated these 589 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: poach and rings. Here's Chip with a few words about 590 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 1: the book. We had a fun time doing this book, 591 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: and I felt privileged that he asked me to do it, 592 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: and I got to hear all these stories firsthand, and 593 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,800 Speaker 1: to me that was super interesting, I mean super interesting. 594 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,280 Speaker 1: And the way we did this, you know, he lived 595 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 1: here in southern Ohio. I lived in northern Ohio. We 596 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: were pretty much each drive about an hour and a half, 597 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: two hours towards the middle of the state. We'd meet. 598 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: He tell me, uh, one of the stories. I'd go 599 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,160 Speaker 1: back home. I'd write for about two weeks, get it 600 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 1: about the way I wanted. I call him and sa okay, 601 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: or to let's do another one. We do it again. 602 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,439 Speaker 1: We probably met Um probably a dozen times, and that's 603 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 1: how the book got written. It's really well done. In 604 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,879 Speaker 1: this Secret Agent Man series, we've learned a lot about 605 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,360 Speaker 1: undercover law enforcement and human nature. We've learned that criminals 606 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 1: are fueled by ego. We learned about the social hierarchy 607 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: of criminal rings. We learned that humans are designed to 608 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: handle acute or temporary stress, but not long term chronic stress. 609 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: We learned that the best liars often stick really close 610 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: to the truth. We learned that criminals can be despicable 611 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 1: in most areas of their lives. Some of them are, 612 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: but sometimes they're decent people that are just misguided in 613 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: certain areas. We also learned how much our game agencies 614 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: are willing to do to protect wildlife. We also learned 615 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 1: that these tactics that were employed pre internet and pre 616 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: social media are completely different than what they're doing today 617 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 1: to catch criminals. I think the biggest takeaway from all 618 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 1: this is that we need to continue to craft the 619 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,280 Speaker 1: hunting culture in North America in a way that values 620 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: obeying the law. I'm in the field a lot and 621 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 1: around a lot of people, and I still see where 622 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:33,759 Speaker 1: foolishly the idea of breaking game laws is glamorized, even 623 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 1: amongst good people, and that's just plain foolishness. In the end, 624 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,360 Speaker 1: I'm grateful for law enforcement and all that they do 625 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:49,800 Speaker 1: to protect wildlife and wild places. I can't thank you 626 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: enough for listening to Bear Greece. Do me a favor 627 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: by sharing our podcast this week with your buddies, and 628 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: we'll see you next week. The Render