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Speaker 1: It's been so hot outside.

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Speaker 2: Man, what I was not ready for the summer. It

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Speaker 2: went straight from cold wintertime to ninety five degrees one

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Speaker 2: hundred percent humidity.

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Speaker 1: And when you feel like that, once you get past

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Speaker 1: the pollen part.

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Speaker 2: It's hard for me to get past the fallen part.

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Speaker 1: The immediate feeling is like, it feels just like that

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Speaker 1: Donald Glover song. It sounds like summer. Yeah, and it's

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Speaker 1: like family reunion and real hot dogs. It's crispy. I

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Speaker 1: want a burnt one. I love it. Summer is family

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Speaker 1: reunion time. It is. I haven't been to a family

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Speaker 1: reunion in a couple of years. I didn't go to

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Speaker 1: the last one. The one before that. My family came

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Speaker 1: to DC, and so you've been everybody that's in my

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Speaker 1: family that listens, know, you've been calling us country and

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Speaker 1: so all those country folks when we're in DC having

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Speaker 1: a good time, I believe.

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Speaker 2: That you all are southern and not country.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to no, that's because somebody corrected you

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Speaker 1: on Instagram. That's because someone corrected you on Instagram.

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Speaker 2: So you said country, I say.

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Speaker 1: Southern, Southern. What I want to know is this summer,

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Speaker 1: are people going to switch from Frankie Beverly a maze

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Speaker 1: before I let go to Beyonce, before I let go.

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Speaker 1: Are the old people gonna let us do it? Okay?

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Speaker 2: So one thing that we know is that old folks

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Speaker 2: love a line dance. Yes, so especially one with instructions.

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Speaker 2: You don't have to memorize, you just exactly. Beyonce tells

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Speaker 2: us exactly what to do, and old people love that,

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Speaker 2: so they got they gotta switch over.

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Speaker 1: I hope my mom is listening. She loves line.

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Speaker 2: Dancing, she does, and she is one of the young

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Speaker 2: people that love them. You remember that time we were

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Speaker 2: line dancing in your house?

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Speaker 1: Yes in North Carolina? Yes, child. We were working up

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Speaker 1: a sweat.

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Speaker 2: Missus Wattley was outstepping all of us.

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Speaker 1: Man, you're gonna twist your ankle trying to keep up.

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Speaker 1: Don't do it. I'm t T and I'm Zachiah.

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Speaker 2: And from Spotify Studios. This is Dope Labs.

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Speaker 1: I think one of my favorite things about family reunions

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Speaker 1: is just seeing how alike everybody is. Like my mom

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Speaker 1: and one of her first cousins, they look just alike.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel like you look like somebody in your family?

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Speaker 2: Everyone tells me that I look just like my father's mom.

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Speaker 2: They're saying that, it's like uncanny is crazy, genetics is

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Speaker 2: a weird thing, because I'm like, how when you know

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Speaker 2: I have a whole other side of my family, how

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Speaker 2: do I look just like right, hurt and not like

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Speaker 2: anybody else.

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Speaker 1: It's really interesting because when everyone's together, you start looking

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Speaker 1: at things and noticing things that you never noticed before.

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Speaker 1: And so I have like a second cousin. And people say, oh,

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Speaker 1: y'all look so much alike, and I'm like, that's my

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Speaker 1: that's a distance. It's a second cousin, you know, versus

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Speaker 1: me and my mom or me and my dad. Someone

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Speaker 1: saying that we look just alike.

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Speaker 2: Right, I know, me and all my sisters have the

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Speaker 2: same pinky toe? What same exact pinky toe?

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Speaker 1: What is it? I don't need you don't even want

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Speaker 1: to know.

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Speaker 2: It's not like what it was not cute?

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Speaker 1: But aren't those things like so strange? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And we get it from our mom because our mom

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Speaker 2: has the same pinky toe.

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Speaker 1: And how come nobody got your dad pinky toe? Have

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Speaker 1: you even seen your dad's pinky toe? I've seen it.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to he wears sampals. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 1: it's like all these things, Like I feel like the

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Speaker 1: family reunions turn everybody into like a genealogist or honestly,

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Speaker 1: a forensic detective. You're like, hey, all of us got

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Speaker 1: this pinky toe, then somebody else come along you like,

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Speaker 1: you don't have that pinkye to see a pinky Are

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Speaker 1: you really in the family right now? You got the mall.

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Speaker 2: If you follow the key on Instagram, you see that

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Speaker 2: she has a mole right above her mouth.

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Speaker 1: It's beautiful. It's my reset button.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's her reset button, her power up button, all

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Speaker 2: the button. Anytime Zakia needs anything, she could press that

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Speaker 2: that mole and she'll get it. Where does the mole

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Speaker 2: come from? It's so distinct.

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Speaker 1: I think I'm only one with a mole. But I

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Speaker 1: think my mom and her brothers have like soft, curly hair, Okay.

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Speaker 1: And then I went natural and I was like, hey,

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Speaker 1: my hair is coarse. It's about a four C. And

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Speaker 1: I asked my dad. He was my dad's bald now

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Speaker 1: so conveniently, He's like, no, no, no, I have waves.

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Speaker 1: I have waves. I never heard my hair is not

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Speaker 1: like that. And I'm like, hey, playboy, either your hair

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Speaker 1: was like that or you're not my father or you

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Speaker 1: are not the father. So yeah, I feel like, now

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Speaker 1: you don't have to look and see does this person

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Speaker 1: belong Do they look like Aunt Carol? Do they look

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Speaker 1: like Uncle Joe? Yes? Or no? Right, you't gotta ask

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Speaker 1: those questions because there's for ninety nine dollars and sometimes less,

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Speaker 1: you can get a commercial DNA test.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like ancestry dot com twenty.

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Speaker 1: Three and meters.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, my heritage family tree DNA and delicious goes on

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Speaker 2: and on and on.

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Speaker 1: Hey, people get these results back, and I think the

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Speaker 1: family re unions this year are gonna be spicy, y'all

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Speaker 1: eating chicken a corporate and they're like uncle Billy, it says,

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Speaker 1: I'm not this. Hey, nobody told them they want. They

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Speaker 1: want answers questions that need answers. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: people decide like, yes, I want to do a genetic test,

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Speaker 1: and then beyond the genetic test, the people that put

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Speaker 1: them into those genealogy databases to find more people like

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Speaker 1: I understand the thirst for that information, but I'm also like,

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Speaker 1: aren't you a little bit nervous about that?

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Speaker 2: I'm nervous about all that stuff, which is why I

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Speaker 2: have not done that. Yeah, I feel confidence that I

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Speaker 2: know for the most part where I'm from, and so

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Speaker 2: I just I'm just sticking with that. If it's something different,

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Speaker 2: it's gonna have to be different.

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Speaker 1: I'm from North Carolina, and I think that's good enough

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Speaker 1: for me. I'm from North Carolina and it's human and

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Speaker 1: that's all I need to end to. Bugs are the

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Speaker 1: size of your head.

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Speaker 2: That's all you need to know about North Carolina.

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Speaker 1: But you know, that really brings up a good point,

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Speaker 1: Like you were saying, I don't really know how it works,

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Speaker 1: And somebody asked us about that on our Instagram lot. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: somebody asked us a question. They said, have y'all done

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Speaker 1: like twenty three and meters or ancestry testing?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, one of those commercial genetic testing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And they're like, have you done a commercial genetic

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Speaker 1: test or direct to consumer genetic test? And what do

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Speaker 1: you think about it? Guess what we're answering your question today.

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Speaker 2: So today we're talking about genetic.

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Speaker 1: Testing, specifically direct to consumer genetic testing and how that

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Speaker 1: information is being used. All right, let's get into the recitation.

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Speaker 1: What do we know and what do we want to know?

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Speaker 2: So there has been a huge boom in the amount

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Speaker 2: of people who are doing these genetic tests.

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Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen, almost four point five million people did

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Speaker 1: direct to consumer genetic testing, and.

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Speaker 2: In twenty eighteen that number almost tripled.

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Speaker 1: And by the beginning of this year, more than twenty

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Speaker 1: six million people have added their DNA to one of

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Speaker 1: the main ancestry or health databases. Honestly, it's everywhere. Everybody's

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Speaker 1: doing it. I heard somebody who was using these tests

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Speaker 1: for dogs. But what do you need to know about

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Speaker 1: your dog? Let's think about my dog, Daisy. Oh, I

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Speaker 1: love Daisy.

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Speaker 2: Daisy is a Chihuahua and she's very chihuaha in, but

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Speaker 2: she's part human too. Sometimes I do think Daisy is

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Speaker 2: a human. She definitely sleeps under the covers like a

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Speaker 2: human with her head on the pillow.

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Speaker 1: See, and now you are a person that wants to

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Speaker 1: get a DNA kit for your dog, going to get

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Speaker 1: a DNA kit. Folks are using these DNA kits to

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Speaker 1: not only find out their ancestry, but they're also using

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Speaker 1: them to find out if they have any type of

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Speaker 1: diseases in their families and any type of genetic things

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Speaker 1: that they need to be aware of. Right, So, looking

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Speaker 1: at risk profile. You know, do you have this certain

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Speaker 1: gene If you do, what does that mean for your

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Speaker 1: risk of manifesting a certain disease later?

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Speaker 2: So when you get your results back, for most people,

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Speaker 2: the buck stops there. They're not doing anything else. Nice

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Speaker 2: to know that I'm fourteen percent Scandinavian. But some people

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Speaker 2: take it one step further. Some people are using this

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Speaker 2: information and putting it into some of these open source

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Speaker 2: databases that are separate from the direct consumer companies, but

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Speaker 2: they're using them to kind of make a genealogy tree

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Speaker 2: or find long lost or distant relatives. So they're looking

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Speaker 2: for other people who have genetic profiles that are similar

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Speaker 2: to theirs. And in some cases when they do that,

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Speaker 2: police are using that information to find the distant relatives

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Speaker 2: of yours that have committed crimes, like the Golden State killer.

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Speaker 2: That was the cold case that had been unsolved for decades,

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Speaker 2: but then the police were able to find a DNA match.

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Speaker 1: It's crazy, but also great that they have a suspect

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Speaker 1: after all these years. You know, So how do we

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Speaker 1: weigh those things? And who, like you said, who's doing

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Speaker 1: the weighing? Do the rules change? Are there any rules?

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Speaker 2: Right, Now we're going to get into that a little

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Speaker 2: later in the show, But first, there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: things I need to know about these kits. I have

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Speaker 2: no idea like how a lot of this stuff works.

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Speaker 2: So that's what I want to start the dissection with.

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Speaker 2: I want to start with the very very basics.

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Speaker 1: So you want to know what genetic information they're looking

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Speaker 1: at in these tests?

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Speaker 2: No, Like I want to know, like what is DNA,

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Speaker 2: what is a chromosome?

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Speaker 1: What is a genie?

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Speaker 2: And then like how these kits work. How do they

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Speaker 2: get all of that information from a bunch of spit.

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Speaker 1: So from the spit of to the kidda, Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: like that. My questions are more around kind of information

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Speaker 1: and the disclosure of information. So if you have this

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Speaker 1: genetic information and not even just information, if you have

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Speaker 1: the sample, what are you doing with all that spit?

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Speaker 1: Do you use it all in the process when you're

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Speaker 1: collecting the DNA? Then when you actually get those test

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Speaker 1: results back, does the company keep a copy of it

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Speaker 1: as well? Like do you get a copy and then

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Speaker 1: they keep a copy or you get a copy and

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Speaker 1: they burn it after reading? I have questions about that

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Speaker 1: this message will self destruct right right, is it like

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Speaker 1: mission impossible? But then I think my other question is,

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Speaker 1: even though there are these privacy concerns and there you know,

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Speaker 1: for some of these companies they say we do not

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Speaker 1: share information with anybody, is there any clause that allows

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Speaker 1: that to change. Is it possible that they don't share

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Speaker 1: now but they will later in the terms and conditions?

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Speaker 1: Because you know, I don't read this though, I don't

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Speaker 1: ever roll to the bottom, click the button, clickick.

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Speaker 2: Except and go about my life.

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Speaker 1: I acknowledge I have read this, but I have not.

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Speaker 1: I have not read a single word. So before we

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Speaker 1: get to the dissection, we want to hear from you.

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Speaker 1: What do you guys think about these at home DNA kids.

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Speaker 1: Have you done a genetic test?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: I did not have not just not interested. I don't

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Speaker 1: trust it.

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Speaker 2: I don't think you can just swab my spent and

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Speaker 2: tell me where my ancestors came from.

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Speaker 1: It just doesn't make sense to me. Have you ever

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Speaker 1: done any genetic testing before? But maybe somebody did it

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Speaker 1: on me, but I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I think there's also a little bit of concern that

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Speaker 4: I have around data privacy and how data is being

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Speaker 4: stored and shared. So that would definitely be something I

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Speaker 4: would need to look into if I were to like

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Speaker 4: try it.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, uh huh yeah.

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Speaker 1: Oh, could you tell us a little bit about what

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Speaker 1: motivated you to do this.

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Speaker 3: I'm from Japan, and in Japan, like there is a

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Speaker 3: discussion that you know, how pure Japanese you are. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so I was curious about like signing up by myself,

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Speaker 3: like if I believe I'm not, so, you know, I

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Speaker 3: wanted to find out.

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Speaker 2: So let's get into the dissection. And today the dissection

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Speaker 2: is going to be a little bit different because we're

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Speaker 2: going to tackle the dissection in this lab in two parts.

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Speaker 2: For the first half, we're going to be using my

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Speaker 2: friend and favorite person as our expert, because Zakiya, she

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Speaker 2: is an expert on all things DNA. Your PhD is

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Speaker 2: in genetics, right, and so I'm going to draw on

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Speaker 2: your expertise to explain a lot of this stuff, no problem.

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Speaker 2: And then in the second part, we're going to be

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Speaker 2: talking to a lawyer who specializes in forensic science, and

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Speaker 2: they can talk more about the bigger questions around the

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Speaker 2: information from these kits and how they're used.

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Speaker 1: Right, They're going to help us understand some of the ethical, legal,

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Speaker 1: and social implications of this.

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Speaker 2: Right, So run me through how these commercial kits actually work.

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Speaker 2: So first, you send in a bunch of spit with

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Speaker 2: DNA in it, right.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the common misconceptions is that inherently

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Speaker 1: that there's DNA in your spit. What's happening is your

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Speaker 1: cheek cells. Your cheeks are constantly shedding, right Ooh, I

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Speaker 1: know that seems really gross, little asmr. Your cheeks are

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Speaker 1: constantly shedding, and so those cells that are coming off

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Speaker 1: of the cheek, the inside of the cheek, those have

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Speaker 1: DNA in them. And so what you're doing is getting

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Speaker 1: those cells that are in the spit and you're getting

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Speaker 1: the DNA out of the cheek cells.

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Speaker 2: So let's start with the very basics, because this is

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Speaker 2: what I need. Okay, I know DNA, I know chromosome.

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Speaker 1: I'm feeling pretty proud.

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Speaker 2: Don't get your hopes up. And I know gene. But

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Speaker 2: what I don't understand is how those three things interact

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Speaker 2: with each other or like, what's the difference. Oh okay,

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Speaker 2: I felt some judgment in that.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, I think these are great leaps and bounds

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Speaker 1: because you used to only tell me that the mitochondria

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Speaker 1: was the powerhouse of the cell.

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Speaker 2: So it is I remember that from biology.

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Speaker 1: I'm feeling good about what you know so far. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: thank you, if you know any of those words. I

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Speaker 1: think we're off to a good start, right. So if

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Speaker 1: we think about our cells, everything in your body is

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Speaker 1: made up of a cell, and these cells replicate. The

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Speaker 1: way they're able to replicate and the way they're able

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Speaker 1: to function is that they have instructions in them, and

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Speaker 1: those instructions are stored in the form of DNA. But

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Speaker 1: there's so much genetic information, and so in order for

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Speaker 1: it to all fit into a cell, it is really condensed.

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Speaker 1: It's packed and wound on top of itself. And in

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Speaker 1: that formation that DNA that's wound up and really tightly packed,

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Speaker 1: those are chromosomes. So chromosomes are tightly wound DNA. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's it.

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Speaker 2: And soh how do these things translate into.

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Speaker 1: Like TT as you present? Yeah, so this beautiful face.

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Speaker 1: So each cell has different areas of the DNA that

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Speaker 1: get turned on or turned off. And those areas those

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Speaker 1: little pieces of DNA that correlate to like make more

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Speaker 1: sugar or do this and that. Those are genes. So

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Speaker 1: along the chromosome, right, which is that tightly wound DNA.

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Speaker 1: There are regions that encode for special functions for each cell.

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Speaker 1: And so even though every cell in your body has

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Speaker 1: the same information, they appear differently because different genes are

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Speaker 1: turned on and off, so different parts of that chromosome

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Speaker 1: are being expressed in let's say a cell that is

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Speaker 1: in your gut compared to like a cell this in

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Speaker 1: your eyeball.

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Speaker 2: This is very complex, but the way that you're explaining

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Speaker 2: it makes a lot of sense.

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Speaker 1: So each cell has the same twenty three chromosomes in it,

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Speaker 1: and those chromosomes all have differ different genes on them,

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Speaker 1: but the collective term for all twenty three of those

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Speaker 1: chromosomes is a genome, okay, And so when you hear

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Speaker 1: people mention like, oh, a human genome, they're they're talking

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Speaker 1: about all of the chromosomes that person has. And so

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Speaker 1: when we talk about the human genome, the human genome

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Speaker 1: is just if you are of the species Homo sapien sapiens,

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Speaker 1: this is your genome, right, But like bird, a specific bird,

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Speaker 1: it has a different genome, so you can't. So that's

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Speaker 1: also a thing people have to understand, Like each species

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Speaker 1: has its own set genome, so we have a reference

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Speaker 1: genome that's come out of a lot of work that

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Speaker 1: scientists have done to understand what's on each chromosome. So

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Speaker 1: all of our genomes are the same roughly, And I

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Speaker 1: think this is something that people don't really realize. If

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Speaker 1: you are a human, you share roughly ninety nine point

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Speaker 1: nine eight percent of your DNA with other everybody else, Wow,

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Speaker 1: there is very little variation. We're not so different. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm feeling really optimistic because that means I share about

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Speaker 1: ninety nine point ninety eight percent of by DNA with Beyonce.

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Speaker 1: And so I think, you know, when we think about

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Speaker 1: these genetic tests, what they're looking at are areas where

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Speaker 1: there tends to be variation.

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Speaker 2: So that point two percent that's left over, that's the

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Speaker 2: variable part.

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Speaker 1: And in that.

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Speaker 2: Variable part, that's where you have genes that make you

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Speaker 2: distinct from someone else. And so they're saying, is there

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Speaker 2: somebody else with a similar profile or are there groups

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Speaker 2: of people that have similar profiles? And that's how they say, Okay,

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Speaker 2: you share ancestry or this percentage of whatever versus you know, thirty.

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Speaker 1: Percent of this, And so that's how they're creating these profiles.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's take a break, and when we get back,

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Speaker 2: we're bringing in someone who can help us break down

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Speaker 2: why this is so important and what you need to

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Speaker 2: know before doing one of those kids yourself. We're back,

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Speaker 2: and so in the first part of the dissection, Zakia,

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Speaker 2: you really laid out the basics of DNA and how

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Speaker 2: these kids actually work.

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Speaker 1: Right, and so now we're going to talk about how

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Speaker 1: that information is being used and to help us, we

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Speaker 1: recruited Aaron Murphy.

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Speaker 5: I'm Aaron Murphy. I'm a professor at NYU School of Law.

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Speaker 5: I'm the author of Inside the Cell, The Dark Side

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Speaker 5: of DNA, and I've written and researched DNA issues for

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Speaker 5: a couple of decades.

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Speaker 1: Now. Aaron's work shines a light on how DNA is

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Speaker 1: being used and who is using it.

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Speaker 2: A perfect example of this is in the Golden State

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Speaker 2: Killer case.

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Speaker 1: I read that book and I was not sleeping for weeks. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I I think I hear something in the house.

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Speaker 2: That you also do that when there is a bug

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Speaker 2: in your house.

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Speaker 1: Yes, equally scary. You guys have to check out the

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Speaker 1: book I'll Be Gone in the Dark by Michelle McNamara.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna put a link in the show notes and

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Speaker 1: hit us on Twitter.

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Speaker 2: Let's read along, let's read together. Let's read it together.

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Speaker 2: Like we'll be like, okay, read up the page whatever.

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Speaker 2: It'll be like being back in high school again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, being a book club. I think it'll be really good.

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Speaker 2: And folks, some folks wasn't reading the book. But I

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Speaker 2: trust that you all will read this book.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Read the book clubs is when folks show up and

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Speaker 2: they haven't read what they were supposed to read. And

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Speaker 2: then you're like, so, then how are we supposed to

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Speaker 2: have a book club?

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Speaker 1: Just eat the snacks. Just eat the snacks, and these.

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Speaker 2: Are virtual snacks. It costs us nothing, Okay, So let's

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Speaker 2: get back to this case.

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Speaker 1: So they were there was a string of murders and

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Speaker 1: rapes and burglaries in California and that was in the

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Speaker 1: seventies and eighties, and the police could not figure it out.

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Speaker 2: They did have a DNA sample from one of the

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Speaker 2: crime scenes.

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Speaker 1: So law enforcement took the Golden State Killers DNA from

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Speaker 1: a crime scene and ran it through their database.

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Speaker 5: But when they tried to find a match in the

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Speaker 5: ordinary criminal justice databases, over time they never found a match.

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Speaker 2: So then you fast forward to twenty eighteen and the

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Speaker 2: use of these directed consumer DNA kits has completely blown up,

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Speaker 2: and there's a growing interest in using these online databases

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Speaker 2: to try and make connections to unsolved cold cases using

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Speaker 2: genetic material.

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Speaker 5: And there's a site in particular called jed match.

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Speaker 2: And if you're trying to do your googles, that's ged match.

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Speaker 5: And that's a site where people who participate in online

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Speaker 5: recreational DNA testing sites like twenty three and meters or ancestry,

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Speaker 5: when they do those tests, they usually have to kind

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Speaker 5: of stay within the walls of the service. And so

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Speaker 5: if you send your genetic information to ancestry dot com

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Speaker 5: and you're trying to find relatives and then some relatives

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Speaker 5: sends their information to twenty three and meter, you won't

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Speaker 5: find each other because you're both in separate consumer commercial databases.

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Speaker 5: So a person in Florida kind of invented this idea

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Speaker 5: of a site where you could sort of upload what

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Speaker 5: you got from one of these commercial testers, and the

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Speaker 5: idea would be to allow you to break down those

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Speaker 5: walls so that people could find each other a across

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Speaker 5: different commercial platforms.

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Speaker 1: So law enforcement uses a DNA from the Golden State

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Speaker 1: killer crime scene to create a profile, and.

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Speaker 2: They did find a distant relative on jed match.

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Speaker 5: So when they got back a match, they thought, well,

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Speaker 5: if this person is in fact related to our perpetrator,

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Speaker 5: they're pretty distantly related. They're like a third cousin or so.

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Speaker 5: So they built an entire family tree from that sample.

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Speaker 2: And that led them to their suspect, a former police

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Speaker 2: officer in California named Joseph James DiAngelo. They got some

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Speaker 2: of DiAngelo's DNA and we'll talk about how that could

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Speaker 2: have happened in a little bit, and he ultimately proved

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Speaker 2: to be a match.

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Speaker 1: So let's look at some of the reasons why they

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Speaker 1: found a DNA match after all those years and why

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Speaker 1: they couldn't find a match back in the day.

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Speaker 2: Well, first, it's because there was a wider pool of

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Speaker 2: people on jed match. The law enforcement databases police for

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Speaker 2: using decades ago only had convicted and arrested people in it.

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Speaker 2: Jedmatch is an open source platform where anyone can upload

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Speaker 2: their information.

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Speaker 1: And the second reason is because the genetic information people

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Speaker 1: upload into jed match from their commercial kits is a

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Speaker 1: lot more informative. A lot of people assume all DNA

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Speaker 1: testing is the same, but it's not.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So there are two different types of DNA testing

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Speaker 2: that we're going to talk about today, and they're very different.

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Speaker 2: There are STRs and SMPS or snips.

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Speaker 5: The information you can get from STRs is like what

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Speaker 5: you could get off of somebody, learn about somebody by

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Speaker 5: looking at their driver's license. The information you get from

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Speaker 5: snips is what you could learn about somebody by looking

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Speaker 5: at their phone.

441
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,439
Speaker 1: The law enforcement databases used to try to find the

442
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 1: Golden State killer back in the day, those only really

443
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 1: had information that was from STR testing. But the commercial

444
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,960
Speaker 1: genetic kits people are using today those are snips.

445
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that analogy Aaron used makes me nervous because

446
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,000
Speaker 2: I don't want people looking at my phone. It's like

447
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 2: that Drake song, you know, when Drake first came out

448
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 2: and he had that freestyle. He's like, if you find

449
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 2: my BlackBerry with the side scroll, sell that to any

450
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,159
Speaker 2: Rappid that I know. That's basically what it is for me.

451
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,959
Speaker 2: You find my phone, you got the keys to the castle.

452
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 1: So let's start with STRs. Why did legislators decide to

453
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 1: use STR testing for criminal justice databases.

454
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 5: One thing to understand is that when forensic DNA typing

455
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:09,120
Speaker 5: came on the scene, legislators and criminal justice officials made

456
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,960
Speaker 5: this very conscious choice to choose parts of the genome

457
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 5: that were highly variable, so they're different among people but

458
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 5: essentially meaningless.

459
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, they might have had your phone, but it was

460
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,439
Speaker 1: like a rotary phone.

461
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,200
Speaker 5: It was just looking at areas of the genome where

462
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 5: we know there are these sequences that everyone has, and

463
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 5: they just repeat different numbers of time and different people.

464
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,160
Speaker 1: Also, with str testing, the range of how far back

465
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,159
Speaker 1: you can find relatives is limited. It really only allows

466
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 1: you to identify parents or full siblings, but you probably

467
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,719
Speaker 1: wouldn't identify a correlation with say, aunts and uncles, and

468
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,879
Speaker 1: definitely not second or third cousins. SNIP testing, on the

469
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 1: other hand, is very different.

470
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,479
Speaker 5: SNIP testing can get you someone's third cousin. It can

471
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,160
Speaker 5: get you genetic connectedness between people who in our social

472
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,159
Speaker 5: worlds probably don't know they're related. I sometimes like to

473
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,639
Speaker 5: point out that the person who was the link to

474
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 5: the goal than state killer probably read the newspaper about

475
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 5: that arrest with the same sense of surprise as everybody else,

476
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 5: because they probably don't know their third cousin.

477
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 1: Snips tell you everything. They're saying, this is how many phones,

478
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 1: this is how many pictures you have, This how many

479
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 1: selfies you have. This is what you like to look

480
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,920
Speaker 1: at at night. This is what you like to listen

481
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 1: to before you go to sleep. Like it's telling you everything.

482
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 2: It's like Spotify, you know how those playlists know your

483
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 2: exact mood and what you have for breakfast.

484
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 1: That's what a snip is.

485
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:31,879
Speaker 5: Snip testing far more implicates privacy than this other form.

486
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: It's a very very.

487
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 5: Different kind of testing, and I think it's a really

488
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 5: important difference to understand in judging whether this is a

489
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:38,679
Speaker 5: method we should use or not.

490
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 1: And they have several other applications aside from these kids.

491
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 1: Snips are used in biomedical research and in the pharmaceutical industry.

492
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: One example of the technology that can be developed using

493
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 1: snip data is Crisper and this is a really popular

494
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 1: gene editing technology that's been in the news lately.

495
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 2: So that means that for these commercial testing kits, which

496
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,479
Speaker 2: have SNIP information from all their consumers, that could be

497
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 2: pretty valuable. Right.

498
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 5: People assume that the model of the business is one

499
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,440
Speaker 5: that's about commercial kit testing. You know, oh, twenty three

500
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 5: and meters makes its money from my ninety nine dollars kit,

501
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 5: but we know that that's not true. In fact, they

502
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 5: discount those kits to subsidize the real model of the business,

503
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 5: which is, you know, research, precision medicine, et cetera. What

504
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 5: they're doing is selling data, genetic data and using genetic

505
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 5: data for research. That's what makes them money, not your kit.

506
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 1: This is something that I always tell people. Sometimes you

507
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 1: might think that you're paying for a service, but sometimes

508
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: you are the product, right like people are selling like

509
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,479
Speaker 1: people say, oh, only pay five dollars. And then I

510
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 1: got you know, my dad was telling me about an app

511
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 1: where he could get fifteen cent off for gas for forever,

512
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: and I said, hey, you know why it's so cheap,

513
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: because you are the product they're selling, your information as

514
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: a consumer.

515
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 5: Just DNA labs alone is like a one billion dollar

516
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 5: industry if you really put it together, all the different

517
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 5: applications and research, it's way more than that. And what

518
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 5: that tells me is there are peopleeople who think this

519
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 5: is really valuable stuff. Right, you would not have entire

520
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 5: industries forming around understanding the genome, understanding what we can

521
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,959
Speaker 5: learn from it, understanding how to edit it to improve

522
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 5: health outcomes, et cetera. If we didn't think those things

523
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 5: were possible.

524
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's exciting to learn more about where

525
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 1: you're from and who you are and how you're related

526
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 1: to this person or that person. But I think there

527
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: needs to be a little more marketing about the other

528
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 1: side of the coin, you know, which is the collection

529
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 1: of biomedical information and how it informs different types of

530
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,120
Speaker 1: decisions and policy and health care. So I think if

531
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 1: we have to really consider not just like what am

532
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: I getting from this information today, but what else can

533
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 1: be done with this information later?

534
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 2: Putting your DNA out there is like when you squeeze

535
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 2: the toothpaste out of the two. You can't put that

536
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 2: toothpaste back in.

537
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 1: Nope, it's not going back.

538
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 2: Once it's out there is out there. Might as well

539
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 2: bush your teeth, And.

540
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 1: That's just assuming that all you can do is brush

541
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: your teeth. We don't know what they're going to do

542
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: with toothpaste in the future.

543
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 5: We still don't have a firm grip on what exact

544
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:08,120
Speaker 5: role genomics play, but billions of dollars are being spent

545
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 5: right now to figure that out, and so I think

546
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 5: when people think about, well, what's the impact of sharing

547
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 5: my genetic information, it's really important to remember this is

548
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 5: incredibly valuable stuff. People really want to know what's in

549
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 5: the genome and what we can do with it. And

550
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 5: the decision I'm making today may not be changeable in

551
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,719
Speaker 5: twenty years, thirty years, fifty years, when some of the

552
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 5: money that's being spent right now actually starts to dividends

553
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 5: in the form of much more concrete information about genetic

554
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 5: predispositions and so forth.

555
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 2: And as we learn with the Golden State killer case,

556
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 2: access to this information isn't just valuable to commercial genetic

557
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 2: testing companies, it's also really valuable to the police who

558
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 2: are using these open source databases to solve cold cases,

559
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 2: eyes not cases, lukewarm.

560
00:26:58,840 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: Cases, all of that.

561
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 2: I just feel like I just found out that I

562
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 2: own lakefront property in the south of France.

563
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:11,719
Speaker 1: We're sit on the gold line. We got to protect it,

564
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 1: that's right. I feel like now that we kind of

565
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 1: have brought everybody up to speed, we're all thinking about

566
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 1: how valuable our genetic information is. Let's go back to

567
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 1: the criminal justice system and how DNA is being used

568
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 1: there I want to know everything, like could police have

569
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: my genetic information? And if they do, when did they

570
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 1: get it, how did they get it.

571
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 5: There are a couple different ways that law enforcement got

572
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 5: DNA now, both visible and invisible. So the most visible

573
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 5: way that they collect DNA is that if a person's

574
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 5: been convicted of a crime. In every state there are

575
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 5: convicted offender DNA registries, and that means that just as

576
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 5: a byproduct of that conviction, you're required to give your

577
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 5: DNA to the state and they put that DNA profile

578
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 5: into a database.

579
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: As for non criminals, sometimes law enforcement will just ask

580
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: people for their DNA to help them find a suspected

581
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 1: crim and some people are happy to help, but a

582
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: lot of people might feel like they're being coerced. I

583
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: know I would feel that way.

584
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 5: We've also seen in some places prosecutors using DNA samples

585
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 5: or DNA profiles as a way to sort of trade

586
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 5: leniency in their treatment of cases. So they can say,

587
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 5: you know, I'll drop this drug possession case if you

588
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 5: give me a DNA sample for the database, or i'll

589
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,159
Speaker 5: mark you know, your charge down if you give me

590
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 5: a DNA sample for the database. And courts, by and

591
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 5: large allow that.

592
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 2: So those are visible ways, and in all those scenarios,

593
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 2: people know that their DNA is being taken, even if

594
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 2: they're not happy about it. But there are other ways too.

595
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 5: Right now, there's really no prohibition on what's called sarptitious sampling,

596
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 5: and this is the idea that anything you discard that

597
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 5: has your genetic or biological material on it can be

598
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 5: seized by law enforcement and type.

599
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 2: So basically you don't even need to commit a crime

600
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 2: for police to snag your DNA, and they aren't required

601
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 2: to report how many samples they have, so they might

602
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 2: have mine and they might have yours.

603
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: We don't know. And it's especially complicated because we leave

604
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: a trail of DNA around us everywhere we go. You

605
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: touch a doorknob, you're leaving fingerprints behind. You didn't exfoliate,

606
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: you didn't wash your legs, well, you're shedding legs, skin

607
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: cells as you walk.

608
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 2: There, you go, your DNA is right there there, coming

609
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 2: right for the picking.

610
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 5: And I think that's one of the concerns again about

611
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 5: this genetic genealogy, is that it strongly incentivizes this kind

612
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 5: of syruptitious collecting because as you're building out these family trees,

613
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 5: if you come to a stumbling block, one solution might

614
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 5: be just to test even if you know this is

615
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 5: not the actual suspect of the perpetrator. One way to

616
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 5: overcome that stumbling block might be just to collect surreptitious

617
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 5: samples from the kind of last person you had to

618
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 5: try to get closer to your actual perpetrator.

619
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: So when you pair an open source database with the

620
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: ability to surreptitiously or secretly collect DNA samples, suddenly police

621
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: have way more avenues to find potential criminals. That could

622
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 1: have been how they got the DNA sample for the

623
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: Golden State killer suspect. Maybe they followed him into a

624
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: jama juice or picked up a used cut a straw,

625
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: used straw or something like that, and now he's in jail.

626
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 2: And because commercial genetic testing and these open source genealogy

627
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 2: databases have become so popular so quickly, the courts are

628
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 2: kind of racing to catch up. There aren't a lot

629
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 2: of protections currently in place.

630
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: A good precedent, though, is smartphones.

631
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 5: So just to give one example, there's a big Supreme

632
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 5: Court case about searching cell phones. And we used to

633
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 5: have this general idea that if police like arrest you

634
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 5: or lawfully sees you. They can kind of seize your stuff,

635
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,479
Speaker 5: they can look, they can pat you down. And it

636
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 5: was largely motivated by like a safety rationale. You know,

637
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 5: if you're gonna seize someone, you might want to make

638
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 5: sure they don't have a weapon in their bag or

639
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 5: what have you. And so the Supreme Court in that

640
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 5: case said, no, you know, they have to have a

641
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 5: reason to search your cell phone and permission from a

642
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 5: court to do it.

643
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: And that was a point that came up in the

644
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 1: Jesse Smolllett case, like people were saying, why do and

645
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: he turned over his phone and show police, you know

646
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: who he was communicating with, but there's a lot of

647
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: stuff in the phone. We didn't really have a law

648
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: for that. Like we have to develop these laws as

649
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: we learn more about these technologies.

650
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 5: And that kind of I think understanding of the differences

651
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 5: that technology can make and the ways in which privacy

652
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 5: can be much more compromised now because of that technology

653
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 5: than in the past is what we need for DNA.

654
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 5: We just haven't had it yet, a sort of recogning

655
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 5: with the biological cell, not just the mobile cell.

656
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: And while there are some regulations in place for how

657
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 1: police can use their own law enforcement databases. There are

658
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: little to no regulations in place for how information from

659
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: the open source databases can be used.

660
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 5: These commercial companies in general have some you know, protections

661
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 5: for privacy, et cetera, and how they're going to use

662
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 5: the data in place, but it's very voluntary and it's

663
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 5: it's really not that binding to the extent that it

664
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 5: might conceivably be binding. You can't really imagine much by

665
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 5: way of enforcement of those agreements.

666
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: People always shock when I tell them, like, I know,

667
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: I haven't done one of these tests, but it's because

668
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: of the scary factor, right of the unknown of what's

669
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: going to happen in the future. But if there were

670
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: laws in place to protect your genetic information, it might

671
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: be different. Because it is interesting, right, people should feel

672
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: free to go out and get these tests done to

673
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: learn more about themselves and you know, their ancestry. They

674
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: shouldn't be worried about.

675
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 2: Their DNA being used in ways that they aren't aware

676
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 2: of or haven't approved of.

677
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 5: I don't think you should have to choose between those

678
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 5: really legitimate reasons to want to do this and genetic

679
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 5: transparency for the rest of your life, you know, I

680
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 5: think you should be able to participate in this kind

681
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 5: of you know, recreational genetics without not just bartering away

682
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 5: your genetic privacy, but the genetic privacy of your children,

683
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 5: their children, all your relatives that you know and all

684
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 5: the relatives you don't know.

685
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 1: You need to tell your auntie that's out here telling

686
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: everybody to do a DNA kit, say you know, I

687
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: love you, but here are some things we should be

688
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: thinking about. Right, did you read the fine print before

689
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: you send in all that spit? I think it's important

690
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 1: for people to start to start knowing because I can

691
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: really see there being a turning tide where we're going

692
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 1: from T shirts they have the family names on them

693
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: to DNA kids with the family name on them as

694
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: your party favorite for the family reunion. Let's just think

695
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: it through before we do that.

696
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 2: So that was a lot of information to take in,

697
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,959
Speaker 2: not just a lot of information, a lot of scary information.

698
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: And the point is not to scare, right, but to

699
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: raise awareness. I think that's what we really want to do. Yeah,

700
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 1: do you feel like you understand now how all these

701
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: things go together?

702
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 2: I definitely understand a lot more and I feel more informed.

703
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 2: Like if somebody were to say, oh, do you want

704
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 2: to do this ancestry test, that I would be like, Okay, well,

705
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 2: let me read a lot more about whatever company it

706
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 2: is who I'm planning on submitting saliva too.

707
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: I think it's important. I think one of the major

708
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: takeaways is that not all companies are created equal, and

709
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: those terms and conditions do vary. So I guess we

710
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 1: got to start looking at that. Yeah, and then even

711
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 1: after you get your results, what you do next really

712
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: can have a major impact, right, not just on you,

713
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: but everybody else in your family.

714
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 2: And you have to think that way because it's way

715
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 2: bigger than you. Just like when you get your results

716
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 2: back and you realize, oh, I have all of this

717
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 2: family from all these different places. It is bigger than you,

718
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 2: and you should like really hone in on that fact

719
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 2: is that this is affecting way more than just yourself.

720
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: I've just been thinking about the collection of DNA and

721
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 1: how you get added to a database, like you know,

722
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: we just briefly mentioned, you know, law enforcement might ask

723
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: people for their DNA to get them off, like you

724
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: don't get this so that in exchange for a lower

725
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: a lighter sentence for something. It could be something that

726
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: you didn't even do so if I've really been thinking

727
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: about this episode in the context of when they see us,

728
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: which just came out, and I just think about those

729
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: boys in that room and being alone, being nervous, being scared.

730
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: If they say we want to swab, you want to

731
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: get your DNA, You're gonna probably say yeah, right.

732
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 2: Because you think if you say no, then it's like,

733
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 2: does that mean that they're gonna think that I'm trying

734
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 2: to hide something that are guilty or something that I

735
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 2: didn't do.

736
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 1: And that's just it's just not the case.

737
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 2: And I'm sure that there are going to be some

738
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 2: people who are thinking, well, don't we want to catch

739
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 2: like people who commit crimes, like we should all be

740
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 2: giving up our DNA for that. But just because of

741
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 2: a DNA match does not mean that you are automatically guilty.

742
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 2: Aaron told us a story about a man who was

743
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 2: in an ambulance and later on that day, another person

744
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 2: was in that ambulance, a victim of a crime, and

745
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 2: they swabbed that victim for DNA, and the man who

746
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 2: was previously in that ambulance, his DNA was on that person.

747
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: I think they arrested him, and so I think there's

748
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,439
Speaker 1: that component of it, that there's the on the one hand,

749
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,879
Speaker 1: we know that when there's always when there's a DNA match,

750
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that someone is the perpetrator of a crime.

751
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, is that the collection of

752
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: DNA for the purposes of figuring out or excluding people

753
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: from crimes doesn't mean that's the only use of that information.

754
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: And I think that's the terrible part. It doesn't stop there.

755
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 1: It doesn't stop there. It's not like, Okay, I'm here

756
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: to help you with this one case and the buck

757
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: stops here. No. Now, I can take your DNA and

758
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:26,919
Speaker 1: I can do a familial search when there's something else

759
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 1: that happens. And I don't think that people are aware

760
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: of how this one small action ripples through for them forever, right,

761
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: and not just affects them, but affects the people that

762
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: they know and love, and even distant relatives who they

763
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: might not know or love.

764
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 2: Right, and then their children and your children children's children.

765
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: So people you can't even make a decision about, depending

766
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: on where you are in life.

767
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 2: People who don't even exist right now.

768
00:36:52,920 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, Wow, that's really real. For more on today's episode,

769
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 1: check out our cheat sheet and show notes at Dope

770
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: Labs podcasts dot com.

771
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 2: And remember the phone lines are always open. You can

772
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 2: leave us a question or comment or text us. Our

773
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 2: number is two zero two five six seven seven zero

774
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 2: two eight. That's two zero two five six seven seven

775
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:22,879
Speaker 2: zero two eight.

776
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at Dope

777
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 1: Laps podcast. Tt is on Twitter and Instagram at dr

778
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 1: Underscore t Sho.

779
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 2: And you can find Zakia on Twitter and Instagram at

780
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 2: z Said So.

781
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: And if you do love the show, don't forget to

782
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 1: follow us on Spotify or wherever else you listen to

783
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: your podcast special thanks to Erin Murphy, our guests for

784
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: today's episode. You can learn more about her work and

785
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 1: find a link to her book in our show notes.

786
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: Our producer is Jenny Rattle at MAAST. Mixing and sound

787
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,240
Speaker 1: design by Hannes Brown.

788
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 2: Original theme music by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex sugi Ura.

789
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 2: Additional music by Elijah Lex Harvey. Shout out to Hope Jackson,

790
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 2: our new intern. We are so excited to have you

791
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 2: a part of the Dope Labs crew.

792
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: That's right. Welcome aboard. Dope Labs is brought to you

793
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: by three M and is a production of Spotify Studios

794
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 1: and Mega Owned Media Group, and is executive produced by

795
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:18,399
Speaker 1: us T. T. Shadia and Zakiah Wattley. So basically, all

796
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,720
Speaker 1: the chromosomes in ourselves are just mixing matches of pieces

797
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 1: of DNA that we get from our parents.

798
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 2: So it's like I have my mother's smile for my

799
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 2: father's teeth.

800
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 1: I think that's quite an oversimplification, but for illustrative purposes,

801
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: I will allow it