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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session four twenty four of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation after a worry from our sponsors. Today, we're bringing

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Speaker 1: attention to a topic that doesn't always get the space

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Speaker 1: or care it deserves, the mental, emotional, and physical toll

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Speaker 1: of living with a severe autoimmune condition. Joining me is

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Speaker 1: doctor Martine Hackett, a public health expert. In the whosts

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Speaker 1: of the podcast Untold Stories Life with a severe autoimmune condition.

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Speaker 1: In her show, she shares her own experience navigating chronic

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Speaker 1: illness while also holding space for others who live with

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Speaker 1: conditions that are often invisible but deeply impactful. We're talking

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Speaker 1: about the ways chronic illness intersects with raised gender and

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Speaker 1: health equity, and how all of that shows up in

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Speaker 1: the body and mind. If you are someone you love

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Speaker 1: is managing a chronic condition, this conversation is for you.

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Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while in joining our conversation,

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Speaker 1: please share with us on social media using the hashtag

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Speaker 1: tpg in session, or join us over in our patreon

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Speaker 1: To talk more about the episode. You can join us

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Speaker 1: at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today, doctor Haggi.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, doctor Joy. This is such a

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Speaker 2: pleasure for having me on today. It's such an important

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Speaker 2: work that you do. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Likewise, so can you get us started by telling us

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Speaker 1: more about your background and what really encouraged you to

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Speaker 1: explore autoimmune disorders. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, my background actually is in public health, specifically maternal

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Speaker 2: and child health and health equity, and I've shut my

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Speaker 2: career as a researcher an educator, advocate, including time working

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Speaker 2: at the New York City Department of Health, and I

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Speaker 2: saw their firsthand how health disparities play out in real communities,

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Speaker 2: and so my focus on autoimmune conditions actually was not

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Speaker 2: part of my original training or even my research agenda,

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Speaker 2: and as a public health professional, I really didn't get

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Speaker 2: any education about autoimmune conditions, and honestly, that kind of

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Speaker 2: makes sense from a traditional public health perspective, because these

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Speaker 2: are conditions that affect relatively small populations percentage of the

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Speaker 2: population compared to issues like diabetes or heart disease or

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Speaker 2: maternal mortality. But one of the things I've learned is

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Speaker 2: that this population is growing and there are really significant

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Speaker 2: patterns in who is affected. Women are disproportionately impacted by

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Speaker 2: autoimmune conditions. We're talking about seventy five to eighty percent

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Speaker 2: of cases occurring in women, and when you start looking

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Speaker 2: at specific conditions like lupus, racial disparities become impossible to ignore.

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Speaker 2: So I started hosting Untold Stories Life with a Severe

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Speaker 2: Autoimmune Condition in twenty twenty three, and that has been

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Speaker 2: an incredible education for me. Through interviewing people living with

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Speaker 2: these conditions, especially black women and black men, I've really

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Speaker 2: come to understand that this is absolutely a public health

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Speaker 2: issue and an equity issue that really hasn't received the

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Speaker 2: attention it deserves.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for the background, doctor Hankin. And what is

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Speaker 1: your understanding of why the autoimmune conditions are growing?

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Speaker 2: So part of the reason is we have increased attention

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Speaker 2: to it. It's the same reason why we see people

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Speaker 2: talking about autism, right Why is autism growing so much?

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Speaker 2: Part of it is that people are more aware that

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Speaker 2: these symptoms that they might be having might be connected

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Speaker 2: to other kinds of conditions and not just you're tired,

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Speaker 2: you're stressed out, You're just need to work out more

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Speaker 2: that these are really conditions that are legitimate. There are

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Speaker 2: also some people that talk about environmental triggers that might

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Speaker 2: also be a factor. So we're talking about microplastics or

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Speaker 2: other kinds of environmental concerns that might also sort of

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Speaker 2: make people who are predisposed to autoimmune conditions pushing them

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Speaker 2: over the edge.

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Speaker 1: So I feel like racism is always the answer when

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Speaker 1: I ask this question, But are there other factors to

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Speaker 1: consider about why the black community is disproportionately impacted by

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Speaker 1: some autoimmune conditions?

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Speaker 2: So I think, especially as I mentioned, since seventy five

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Speaker 2: to eighty five eighty percent are women who are affected

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Speaker 2: we're talking really specifically about black women being sort of

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Speaker 2: in the perfect storm of disparities. We're more likely to

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Speaker 2: develop certain autoimmune conditions, and we're also more likely to

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Speaker 2: be misdiagnosed and have our symptoms dismissed as being psychological

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Speaker 2: or and experienced delays in diagnosis. So there is definitely

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Speaker 2: documented bias where black women's pain is underestimated and our

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Speaker 2: symptoms are more likely to be attributed to stress or

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Speaker 2: lifestyle factors or our weight than a serious medical condition.

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Speaker 2: So studies have shown that women with lupus, for example,

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Speaker 2: are diagnosed later and have more severe organ damage by

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Speaker 2: the time they receive proper care. So we're also more

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Speaker 2: like to experience complications and have higher mortality rates. And

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Speaker 2: it's not because these diseases are worse for us, but

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Speaker 2: that delayed diagnosis and inadequate treatment play a very significant role.

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Speaker 1: So can you help us under stand, doctor Hacket, like

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Speaker 1: what's going on in medical training or like, why is

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Speaker 1: it that it is so often misdiagnosed or not caught

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Speaker 1: until later and typically attributed to other kinds of concerns.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think that this again is connected to

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Speaker 2: other health issues that we see that disproportionately affect black women.

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Speaker 2: We think about training in medical school, I mentioned that

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Speaker 2: as a public health professional, I really had no training

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Speaker 2: when it came to the idea of autoimmune conditions. The

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Speaker 2: other thing is that autoimmune often presents as other kinds

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Speaker 2: of conditions. So fatigue, for example, is something that can

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Speaker 2: be attributed to many different concerns. And of course we

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Speaker 2: know as black women, as people who might be doing

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Speaker 2: a job and then a side job, and then a

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Speaker 2: fan and other family to work with. You just accept

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Speaker 2: that that's sort of the sort of natural state of things.

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Speaker 2: So again it's not to put the blame on the individual,

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Speaker 2: but it's to recognize that as health professionals, when someone

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Speaker 2: actually does come in to the physician to sort of

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Speaker 2: say I've been feeling tired but feeling worn down, they

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Speaker 2: are not going to immediately jump to autoimmune. Another reason

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Speaker 2: is because they're actually challenging to be able to diagnose.

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Speaker 2: Often with many of these conditions, there's not just like

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Speaker 2: one blood test you do or just check check check in,

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Speaker 2: then this is it. This is often why it takes

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Speaker 2: longer to diagnose. You might have to go to two

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Speaker 2: three doctors, a specialist to be able to diagnose it.

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Speaker 2: So I think it's a combination of just the medical

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Speaker 2: system not being paying attention to this as a growing issue,

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Speaker 2: the fact that the symptoms present as many different things,

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Speaker 2: and that the challenge isn't actually diagnosing it.

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Speaker 1: Got it. Can you give us a definition of autoimmune conditions,

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Speaker 1: doctor Hackett? What are we talking about with this category?

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Speaker 2: Sure? So autoimmune conditions occur when your immune system mistakenly

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Speaker 2: attacks your own healthy tissues instead of protecting you from threats.

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Speaker 2: So people talk about it as like your body's security

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Speaker 2: system getting confused and attacking the house that it's supposed

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Speaker 2: to PreTect. They're challenging to diagnose, like I said, because

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Speaker 2: of those symptoms that mimic other conditions and it can

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Speaker 2: look like stress or depression or other kind of common infections.

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Speaker 2: Autoimmune conditions also have what are called flares and remission,

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Speaker 2: so the symptoms can come and go. So people have

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Speaker 2: to connect the dots, right, So it's not just that

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Speaker 2: I'm tired during this time and then oh look I'm fine.

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Speaker 2: It's recognizing that there is a longer term of a

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Speaker 2: pattern of feeling of response, and so yeah, piecing together

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Speaker 2: those symptoms around autoimmune can be challenging.

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Speaker 1: I would imagine that this has also become complicated or

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Speaker 1: more complicated in the face of COVID, right, because you know,

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Speaker 1: for so many times in the different strains have different

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Speaker 1: kinds of symptoms, right, So I would imagine that has

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Speaker 1: complicated the diagnostic factors.

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Speaker 2: Of course, it might be familiar with long COVID too,

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Speaker 2: which is also similar in that people have been dismissed

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Speaker 2: with those symptoms that they present with brain fog, extreme fatigue,

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Speaker 2: muscle weakness. These are very similar to some of these

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Speaker 2: autoimmune conditions as well, but I think the thing that

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Speaker 2: they have in common is this desire to sort of

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Speaker 2: dismiss them as something legitimate.

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Speaker 1: So you've already mentioned that lupus is probably one of

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Speaker 1: the more common autoimmune conditions that people know. Are there

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Speaker 1: others that are particularly impactful for black women.

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Speaker 2: So we also know that rheumatoid arthritis, even though that

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Speaker 2: affects all populations, it's an autoimmune disease and it tends

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Speaker 2: to be more aggressive in black patients. And there are

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Speaker 2: also certain thyroid autoimmune conditions like hashimotos that also shows

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Speaker 2: a higher prevalence in our communities.

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Speaker 1: And so specifically related to lop is. What is a

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Speaker 1: loopis and what kinds of concerns might people be wanting

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Speaker 1: to pay attention to their so.

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Speaker 2: Lupus is an autoimmune disease that also, as I mentioned,

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Speaker 2: disproportionately affects women. It presents as persistent fatigue that doesn't

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Speaker 2: improve with rest, joint pain, swelling, especially in the hands

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Speaker 2: and feet, unexplained fevers, hair loss, and sensitivity to sunlight

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Speaker 2: are often the symptoms of lupus and can present with pain,

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Speaker 2: especially in the joints. And so again, these are symptoms

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Speaker 2: that might be considered for different kinds of diseases, but

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Speaker 2: lupus is an automne condition that does disproportionately affect black

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Speaker 2: women and has many of the symptoms that are similar

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Speaker 2: to other kinds of conditions.

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Speaker 1: You know, given that you've already talked to doctor Heckett

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Speaker 1: about the idea that these symptoms can really mimic lots

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Speaker 1: of different things, what advice would you give to the

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Speaker 1: community about, like how to talk to your doctor about

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Speaker 1: this and really be an EVA give for years Olf.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so important because you really do have to

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Speaker 2: be your own best advocate to be able to get

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Speaker 2: this I think so many of us, you know, are

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Speaker 2: raised with this idea that the doctor knows everything, and

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Speaker 2: by the time you actually make it to the doctor,

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Speaker 2: you know, tell them how you feel, that they will

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Speaker 2: have this sort of magic key, right that will open

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Speaker 2: up a diagnosis in treatment. And so one of the

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Speaker 2: first things we have to realize is that doctors are

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Speaker 2: trying to figure it out, and especially for conditions like

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Speaker 2: this that might not have a blood test that easily

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Speaker 2: diagnoses it. So I would say the first thing is

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Speaker 2: to document everything. Keep a symptom diary with the dates,

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Speaker 2: the severity, how the symptoms are affecting your daily activities.

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Speaker 2: This becomes then sort of objective information that that's harder

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Speaker 2: to dismiss, right if you say, on the seventeenth at

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Speaker 2: five pm, this is what happened, and you know, you

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Speaker 2: continue to document those feelings or those experiences. That becomes

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Speaker 2: a really important tool in helping your physician diagnose you

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Speaker 2: and also recognize that you might need to bring somebody

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Speaker 2: with you into that appointment to help you as possibly

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Speaker 2: a witness, but also as an advocate. So that's also

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Speaker 2: something that again that's sadly in many conditions, that's something

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Speaker 2: that is probably generally good advice, but especially for like

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Speaker 2: conditions like this, where it's probably not going to be

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Speaker 2: just a one and done, you should ask for referrals

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Speaker 2: for specialists, and if that's denied, to be able to

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Speaker 2: ask for the medical reasoning and have that be documented

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Speaker 2: in your chart, and to be able to sort of say, like,

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Speaker 2: if I'm asking for this, why am I not getting

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Speaker 2: it right? And to have that rationale, like I said,

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Speaker 2: be documented. You want to also on your own look

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Speaker 2: for referrals for specialists and to see who in your

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Speaker 2: area there might be an academic research center nearby that

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Speaker 2: specializes in this. And then this is where a second

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Speaker 2: opinion is absolutely necessary in some cases to be able

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Speaker 2: to get that sort of outside perspective. To be able

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Speaker 2: to do that and ultimately right, you know your body

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Speaker 2: better than anyone, and so you have to trust your

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Speaker 2: instincts and not give up, which is hard because often

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Speaker 2: these conditions are extremely debilitating. But I would say that

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Speaker 2: that really has to be It is that you have

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Speaker 2: to be able to recognize that you know. And I

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Speaker 2: hear this from my guests on the podcast that say

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Speaker 2: you are the expert of your own experience.

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Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break and who actually

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Speaker 1: are the experts in terms of loops right, in terms

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Speaker 1: of like developing a treatment plan and working with you.

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Speaker 1: What kind of doctor is that we're looking for.

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Speaker 2: So when it comes to dealing with your doctor, you

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Speaker 2: want to start with your primary care physician. This is

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Speaker 2: your first entry into again sort of getting your blood

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Speaker 2: tests or getting things possibly eliminated, right known things eliminated.

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Speaker 2: But if you are a eventually diagnosed with an autoimmune disease,

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Speaker 2: it can depend. When it comes to certain autoimmune conditions,

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Speaker 2: a rheumatologist might be the person that you get referred to,

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Speaker 2: and that's the primary person. For lupis, for example, would

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Speaker 2: be a rheumatologist and they are the ones dealing with

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Speaker 2: your joint pain, your rashes, other and your fatigue. There

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Speaker 2: are some other autommune conditions where a neurologist is your

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Speaker 2: main physician helping you or main specialists that's helping you

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Speaker 2: manage your conditions. But ultimately it starts with the primary

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Speaker 2: care provider and then ideally finding the right specialist to

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Speaker 2: help you manage your symptoms.

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Speaker 1: And so you know, we talked about lupus, you talk

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Speaker 1: about RUBATOI on the riot is another autoimmune condition that

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Speaker 1: is also impacting the Black community, as my Athenia graviz,

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Speaker 1: so that I think is a newer one, maybe one

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Speaker 1: that people have not heard so much about. So can

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Speaker 1: you tell us about MG and what that collection of

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Speaker 1: symptoms looks like?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'll say I was also somebody who did

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Speaker 2: not know what MG was until I started posting this

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Speaker 2: podcast about it. And so Mycethena gravis is an autoimmune

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Speaker 2: condition where the antibodies attack the communication between the nerves

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Speaker 2: and the muscles, so it causes muscle weakness and that

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Speaker 2: doesn't improve with rest. And so it's something that can

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Speaker 2: look like a lot of other conditions, and it's tricky

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Speaker 2: because muscle weakness can, like I said, can fluctuate during

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Speaker 2: the day and affect different muscle groups. But early signs

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Speaker 2: usually include ocular around the eyes, so like drooping eyelids,

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Speaker 2: double vision. I've had several of the guests on the

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Speaker 2: podcast talk about an optomologist being the first person to

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Speaker 2: diagnose their mGy. But it also presents again in muscle

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Speaker 2: weakness around difficulty chewing and swallowing, and muscle weakness in

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Speaker 2: the legs when activities you previously were able to do.

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Speaker 2: All of a sudden you're like, oh wow, I really

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Speaker 2: can't do that anymore. It's not just because you're getting

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Speaker 2: older or whatever, but that's usually connected to the myasthenia.

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Speaker 1: That's so interesting, And it sounds like, because what does

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Speaker 1: the symptoms all look very different? Like your entry into

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Speaker 1: having conversations about this will be very different depending on

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Speaker 1: the symptom. Right, So you mentioned optalmologists. You know, if

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Speaker 1: there are some stomach things, it could be your primary

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Speaker 1: care doctor or a guestro interrologist. So it sounds like

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Speaker 1: it could be lots of different entry points in that.

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Speaker 1: Is there like a team effort once you start talking

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Speaker 1: about these different symptoms that affect different parts of the body.

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Speaker 2: Ideally there's a team effort onces the disease is diagnosed

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Speaker 2: and the condition is diagnosed, and I think that this

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Speaker 2: becomes the goal. And guess who's at the center of

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Speaker 2: the team. You are, right, and this becomes your and

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Speaker 2: again kind of not in some ways should not necessarily

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Speaker 2: be that way, right, because you're the one who is

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Speaker 2: experiencing the condition, but you are the one that is

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Speaker 2: ultimately bringing this to the medical community and having them

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Speaker 2: again go through that process to finally be able to

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Speaker 2: diagnose it. And once diagnosed, yes, of course you're going

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Speaker 2: to need those specialists who are the ones who you

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Speaker 2: might be seeing for treatments. And one thing I didn't

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Speaker 2: say before is that for most of these conditions, there

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Speaker 2: is not a cure, right that you're really what you're

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Speaker 2: doing is you're being able to manage the symptoms and

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Speaker 2: to perhaps go into remission, but really trying to just

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Speaker 2: manage day to day activities of daily life. And so

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Speaker 2: the team then would be your specialists giving your information

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Speaker 2: back to your primary care provider, having that in your

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Speaker 2: medical record. And this is true sadly for so many

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Speaker 2: other conditions, right, is that you have all these specialists,

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Speaker 2: but no one's talking to each other. So it's really

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Speaker 2: that idea that you need to be in the middle

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Speaker 2: to be able to bring together all of this different

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Speaker 2: information for more holistic care.

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Speaker 1: So we know that there's a collection of symptoms, and

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Speaker 1: it sounds like you're keeping a journal in like a

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Speaker 1: log of your symptoms is important. Are there any particular

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Speaker 1: blood tests or lebs that positions would be using to

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Speaker 1: try to make a decision and a diagnosis around autoimmune conditions.

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Speaker 2: Of course, the lab tests are one of the fundamental

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Speaker 2: ways that does happen, but as I mentioned before, it's

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Speaker 2: not usually one of the first ones that are even considered.

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Speaker 2: For LOOPIS, there are definitely different markers that doctors would

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Speaker 2: be looking for in a screening test. So they'd be

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Speaker 2: looking for an ANA, which is an anti nuclear antibody,

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Speaker 2: and you could be positive for that, but it doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean you're positive for LOOPIS because healthy people can have

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Speaker 2: this as well, which means even more specific tests after

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Speaker 2: that that are more closely related to LOOPUS. For MG,

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Speaker 2: they're also key tests for specific antibodies, but even there

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Speaker 2: there's about ten to fifteen percent of people with MG

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Speaker 2: are serial negative so might not present with those specific antibodies.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, the blood work can be really complex for

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Speaker 2: autoimmune conditions. You can have positive tests with no symptoms,

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Speaker 2: you can have clear symptoms and negative tests, and so

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Speaker 2: this is why these conditions are challenging to diagnose and

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Speaker 2: why people often feel frustrated with the testing process. But

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Speaker 2: ultimately I would say, you know, one thing that's important

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Speaker 2: to remember is that again thinking about who your doctor

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Speaker 2: is as like a person, right and as a professional,

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Speaker 2: is that they're using these tests to as a tool, right,

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Speaker 2: as a tool to be able to help them, but

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Speaker 2: they're not the whole story. You need to be able

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Speaker 2: to also present information about your symptoms, about the some

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Speaker 2: of those specifics in addition to those blood tests, and

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Speaker 2: again you're not imagining things because the blood test might

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Speaker 2: come negative.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: This is again a recognition that it's going to be

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Speaker 2: a longer journey to be able to get that final diagnosis.

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Speaker 1: You know, we've had other conversations on the podcast recently

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Speaker 1: about perimenopause and menopause symptoms, and I'm also reminded that

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Speaker 1: some of the symptoms you are talking about also mimic that,

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Speaker 1: so I could imagine that maybe you're an obgyn is

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Speaker 1: also a part of this care team as people are

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Speaker 1: trying to like suss out in like differential diagnoses, like

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Speaker 1: figuring out exactly what the concern is.

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Speaker 2: And that's exhausting if you think about it, right, because

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Speaker 2: it's not like you just like roll up to you know,

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Speaker 2: your physician and get an appointment, right, I mean just

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Speaker 2: even getting appointments with these people, right, to be able

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Speaker 2: to do that, to have an opening, and then you're

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Speaker 2: coordinating all this information. Yeah, it's something that we recognize

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Speaker 2: that our health system is extremely disjointed and really not

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Speaker 2: putting the patient at the center.

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Speaker 1: M hm. Is there anything you learned doing this work,

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Speaker 1: doctor Hackett, around like any genetic predispositions to autoimmune conditions,

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Speaker 1: any information there?

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Speaker 2: Again, this is more on the anecdotal side. We have

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Speaker 2: had guests who have had family members who have had

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Speaker 2: some of the autoimmune conditions. There is research that does

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Speaker 2: talk about some of that preconditions. But I think another

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Speaker 2: thing that's important to think about with an autoimmune condition

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Speaker 2: is that you can sort of have a genetic preference,

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Speaker 2: shall we say, for that type of autoimmune condition. But

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you're familiar with the idea of

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Speaker 2: like epigenetics, which is this idea that our genetics loads

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Speaker 2: the gun, as they say, and the environment pulls the trigger.

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Speaker 2: So I think just because you might have a certain preference,

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Speaker 2: the conditions that surround you are also extremely important to

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Speaker 2: see whether or not that condition actually presents in as

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Speaker 2: one of those automune conditions.

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Speaker 1: And I know so much of the conversation around autoimmune

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Speaker 1: conditions and managing them is typically around stress management. Can

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Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about the role that stress

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Speaker 1: pleads and you know, having some flare ups. Look, let's

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Speaker 1: just be real.

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Speaker 2: Stress is a damaging factor for many conditions. We know

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Speaker 2: that again, particularly Black women can be more susceptible to

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Speaker 2: stress and stress in a way that is not expressed

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Speaker 2: but maybe just sort of taken in and just dealt

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Speaker 2: with as part of normal everyday life. But what's important

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Speaker 2: to know is that when we feel stress, even though

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Speaker 2: it can be like you can't put on a scale

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Speaker 2: and you can't look at it under a microscope, stress

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Speaker 2: has real physiological impact on our bodies. We know that

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Speaker 2: when we feel stress and our heart starts beating right,

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Speaker 2: or our temperature fluctuates, or we start perspirating right. The

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Speaker 2: idea is is that stress produces stress hormones, and those

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Speaker 2: stress hormones have an effect on our bodies. And again, sadly,

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Speaker 2: this is also connected to issues like maternal mortality. When

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Speaker 2: we think about hypertension is clearly related can clearly be

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Speaker 2: related to stress and the stress hormones that are produced.

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Speaker 2: So just as an overall stress is bad, right, I mean, look,

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Speaker 2: there are some stressors that can be healthy stressors as

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Speaker 2: long as they're not toxic and chronic So that being said, yeah,

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Speaker 2: managing stress is a key factor to being able to

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Speaker 2: prevent many different kinds of diseases and chronic diseases, and

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Speaker 2: so thinking about that as a just a general wellness

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Speaker 2: recommendation can really help you again hopefully delay the onset

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Speaker 2: of many different kinds of conditions.

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Speaker 1: So you've already mentioned like how difficult the coordination of

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Speaker 1: like your care team, Like it sounds like this is

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Speaker 1: exalting on top of like the symptoms that you are

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Speaker 1: already experiencing because of a condition. What kinds of suppor

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Speaker 1: is important And maybe these stories that you've heard from

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Speaker 1: the podcast around like what kinds of things have really

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Speaker 1: been helpful in terms of support they've gotten from loved

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Speaker 1: ones and their care teams. That can really make a difference.

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Speaker 2: So, as you mentioned, support from the medical team is

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Speaker 2: a primary one. You want people who will see you

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Speaker 2: as a whole person, right, you want not just this

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Speaker 2: collection of symptoms and so, but emotionally peer support is

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Speaker 2: absolutely valuable. One of the things that I constantly hear

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Speaker 2: on the podcast is the ability to connect with other

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Speaker 2: people who have your condition can be really who truly

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Speaker 2: understand what it daily means. To have an autoimmune condition

419
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Speaker 2: is extremely valuable because, as I mentioned earlier, in general,

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Speaker 2: in the population, these are fairly rare conditions, and so

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Speaker 2: you might not have a friend of a friend who

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Speaker 2: has that particular condition. But the communities that have sprout

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Speaker 2: up around these supporting people with these conditions can be

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Speaker 2: unbelievably valuable. They are great, again, like I said, just

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Speaker 2: for peer support, Hey, I'm dealing with this symptom. Hey

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Speaker 2: has anybody else felt this to advocacy as well? Many

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Speaker 2: of these organizations are very organized and are ones who

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Speaker 2: are right at the forefront for advocating, for research dollars,

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Speaker 2: for making this an issue that physicians need to be

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Speaker 2: aware of in their training, and the ability to sort

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Speaker 2: of bring attention to these conditions. So I would say

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Speaker 2: that peer support and the support of other people who

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Speaker 2: have similar conditions is absolutely valuable. M H.

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Speaker 1: And are you aware of any organizations do you feel

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Speaker 1: like that have been a good resource for maybe some

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Speaker 1: of the guests that they've shared.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so, thinking about some of the specific conditions

438
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 2: that we've already discussed, like lupus, there is the Lupus

439
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 2: Foundation of America that actually has specific support groups for

440
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 2: people of color. And there are also other clearing houses

441
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 2: for other organizations like Patients like Me, which is an

442
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,679
Speaker 2: online platform where you can connect with other people that

443
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 2: have similar kinds of conditions. I don't know if you've

444
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 2: heard of the Spoon community in dealing with chronic illness,

445
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 2: and those are folks who are very much available online

446
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 2: and in social media, and those are for all kinds

447
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 2: of chronic conditions, and so those have been again just

448
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 2: very helpful to get people to on a day to

449
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 2: day basis with being able to have to deal with

450
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 2: what does it mean to live with these conditions? So

451
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 2: I would say more organized groups in terms of ones

452
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 2: that do advocacy and fundraising and research, but also groups

453
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 2: like I said on through social media that can really

454
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 2: just be that peer support seem to be really helpful.

455
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: In fact, I could you mentioned that learning more about

456
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: autoimmune diseases has a bit of a detour kind of

457
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 1: in your training, and this is what you necessarily plan

458
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: for your career. What do you feel like learning more

459
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 1: about these conditions has done for you in terms of

460
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: how you approach public hell than maybe even your advocacy work.

461
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, thing that I honestly never expected to happen to me,

462
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 2: But I'm so grateful that it has because what it's

463
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:11,120
Speaker 2: done is it really has addressed this an issue that

464
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 2: I don't have an autoimmune condition. I don't have close

465
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 2: family that have an autoimmune condition, so I can easily

466
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 2: feel like it's not that big of an issue.

467
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 1: But when I've.

468
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 2: Started to talk to people who have it, when I

469
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 2: start to understand what does it mean to not only

470
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 2: have an autoimmune condition, but to live with it, and

471
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 2: what impact does that have on your family, what impact

472
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 2: does that have on your community, That's when I started

473
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: to real and then what are these inequities that are

474
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: also here in dealing with diagnosing and treating these conditions.

475
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 2: That's where I saw this connection to the work that

476
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 2: I have done in the past, to the work of

477
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 2: the autoimmune community. So for me, I feel like this

478
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 2: has been a gift to be able to really sort

479
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 2: of see this group of people who are in many

480
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 2: cases having basically invisible disabilities, where people might not understand

481
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 2: why their voice might be affected, why they're not physically

482
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 2: able to do things even though they might look fine.

483
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 2: So I guess that all of this is to say

484
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 2: that this has been a real opportunity for me to

485
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 2: sort of be open to again a growing issue that's

486
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 2: affecting the population of populations that I care about.

487
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: More. From our conversation after the break, you bring up

488
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: a really good point in terms of as being maybe

489
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: a little bit more of an invisible disability, And I

490
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 1: think that that brings additional challenges in terms of like

491
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 1: how to advocate for yourself. What suggestions would you offer

492
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 1: there for people to be able to continue to do that.

493
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that this is something that people

494
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 2: constantly struggle with. Because I can even think for myself

495
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 2: in my day to day life, I might also have

496
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 2: sort of feelings about I see somebody who's like parking

497
00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 2: in the handicapped spot and they look fine.

498
00:27:59,720 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: Right.

499
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 2: It's about really educating us about this recognition that disability

500
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 2: is something that will likely affect almost all of us

501
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,719
Speaker 2: at some point in our lives, and invisible or not.

502
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 2: As we age, as we are just exposed to other

503
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 2: kinds of conditions, this is likely something that will affect

504
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 2: us or somebody very close to us. So that's the

505
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 2: first thing, is to realize that this is not something

506
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 2: that happens to other people, and that we have to

507
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 2: also be aware that not only does this affect people,

508
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: but what are the sort of ways that we're able

509
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 2: to support people who have these disabilities? So I'm thinking

510
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 2: about things like, what about the people you work with?

511
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 2: What about people who are going through invisible disabilities? How

512
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 2: are we judging them? How are we maybe making sort

513
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: of jumping to conclusions we should be asking people? Right,

514
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 2: we should be open to being able to understand that

515
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 2: most everybody's going through something, and that to be able

516
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 2: to try to understand that and to be open to

517
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 2: that is important. So I think for me it's been

518
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: a real humbling experience to sort of recognize I was

519
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 2: bringing in a ton of assumptions when it comes to disability,

520
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,719
Speaker 2: and those assumptions were wrong. And this has really been

521
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 2: an opportunity for me to recognize that, yeah, most people

522
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 2: are going through something and to be able to be

523
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 2: sensitive to that and to be empathetic is just has

524
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 2: changed really how I've approached the way I do my work.

525
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: Given that we know that more of the black community

526
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: is being impacted by autoimmune conditions, specifically things like loopiz.

527
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: Are you aware of any research teams that are really

528
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: diving into this work and maybe what would you envision

529
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: for the future of public health to maybe step more

530
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: into it.

531
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 2: So I'm not aware of the individual sort of groups

532
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 2: that are doing this, and I would hope that there

533
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 2: are more that are doing so, but I can say

534
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 2: that when it comes to public health, this is an

535
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 2: area that needs to have more attention drawn to it.

536
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 2: Of course, public health is going through a lot of

537
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 2: turmoil right now, right when it comes to funding and

538
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 2: dealing with things like vaccine. But here's the thing. Living

539
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 2: with an autoimmune condition is something that is not only growing,

540
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 2: but it's something that is disproportionately affecting populations in a

541
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 2: way that make us recognize that until we do pay

542
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,959
Speaker 2: attention to them, people will not get the type of

543
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 2: treatment that they deserve and recognition, and so research, I

544
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 2: would argue, really needs to be sort of connected to

545
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 2: other chronic diseases and living with chronic diseases, but also

546
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 2: the recognition that the issue with autoimmune conditions are that

547
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 2: they are increasingly not recognized and so to be able

548
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 2: to have that research that, again from a public health perspective,

549
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 2: it's absolutely important to be able to put that within

550
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 2: a context of health equity of being able to address

551
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 2: this similarly as other issues like maternal mortality, and for

552
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 2: us to be able to recognize that it's not okay

553
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,719
Speaker 2: to have people go through these conditions and through what

554
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 2: they have to do in a health system just to

555
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 2: get the care that they deserve.

556
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: Thank you for that. I want to go back to

557
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: something that you mentioned earlier in our conversation around you know,

558
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: some of these symptoms kind of being misattributed to things

559
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: like diet and weight. You talk about like why that's

560
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 1: such a harmful and damaging narrative, especially when we're talking

561
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: about autoimmune condition.

562
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 2: Absolutely, so we know that there is weight bias with

563
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 2: our clinicians. This is not only something that and again

564
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 2: there's weight bias with the whole population, So clinicians are

565
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 2: part of the population, so this is not something that's

566
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 2: particularly special to them. But I think one of the

567
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 2: things we've realized is that many of the narratives around

568
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 2: dealing with weight have to do with a lack of

569
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 2: self control or somebody just not doing the right thing,

570
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 2: or why don't you just listen? And I've heard this

571
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 2: from physicians, and it's an extremely damaging narrative because it

572
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 2: basically puts the responsibility on someone's ability to either listen

573
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 2: and do the right thing or to be that sort

574
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 2: of recault patient right, And to me, that is obviously

575
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 2: absolutely the wrong perspective. I think one of the things

576
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 2: we've seen with these GLP one drugs and other kinds

577
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 2: of drugs to be able to address diabetes and weight

578
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 2: is that, oh, it actually has some sort of component

579
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 2: that is connected to your brain and to hormones. And

580
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 2: the point is is that we have seen that that

581
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 2: narrative that has been pushed before around your self control

582
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 2: has shifted as we have you now new pharmaceuticals that

583
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 2: are able to address it, and in doing so that

584
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: sort of hopefully will also shift this idea of the

585
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 2: bias around weight. That sort of again means that people

586
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 2: don't get the kind of more in depth testing and

587
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 2: being taken seriously with their symptoms.

588
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: So what would you say to someone, doctor Hackett, who

589
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 1: maybe has a new diagnosis of an autoimmune condition and

590
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: maybe struggling with how to make sense of all of this,

591
00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: What kinds of things would you offer to them?

592
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 2: So I think one of the key things in this

593
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 2: is definitely what I've heard through my people I've talked

594
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 2: to in the podcast is that managing an autoimmune condition

595
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 2: takes a village, so don't try to do it alone,

596
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: and don't feel guilty about needing support. Building your support

597
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 2: network is actually as important as taking your medicine, and

598
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 2: so asking for help is not a weakness in these conditions,

599
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 2: it's a strategy. Really, you're managing a complex medical condition

600
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 2: and while trying to live your life, raise your family,

601
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 2: and purdue your career, so that takes tremendous strength, and

602
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 2: so having a support system helps just makes you more effective.

603
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 2: So maybe that means you need to get extra help

604
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 2: with meal prep or cleaning your house or other things.

605
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 2: The idea is not to be afraid to be able

606
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 2: to ask for that and to be able to recognize

607
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 2: that this is what you need and deserve to be

608
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 2: able to manage a complex condition.

609
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: Thank you, Dakna Heckett. I would imagine that podcaster was

610
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: also not on your job vision board. That's something that

611
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: you saw yourself doing likewise was not online. But it

612
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: is an interesting I think avenue when you think about

613
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,879
Speaker 1: public health, about being able to share health information. Can

614
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: you talk to us about how you see this as

615
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: an avenue for public health and how do you balance

616
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: being personable and relatable with the conversation around like some

617
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 1: very jargon heavy kind of you know, clinical terms, like

618
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:29,760
Speaker 1: what's the balance for you there?

619
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 2: So I think for me, it's recognizing that people are

620
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 2: at the center of this, and people are at the

621
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 2: center of public health. And I think that often gets

622
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 2: dismissed in some ways when we think about statistics, when

623
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 2: we look at data, right, and we forget that there

624
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 2: are people attached to each one of those numbers. And

625
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 2: so I have always been interested in people's stories and

626
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 2: how people are understanding their perspectives on how they understand

627
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 2: their world. And so for me to be able to

628
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 2: talk to people and to understand their individual stories and

629
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 2: then to take their individual stories and connect it to

630
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 2: the sort of larger conditions that we see, I think

631
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 2: to me is a way to get people to really

632
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 2: sort of recognize that just because you're going through something

633
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that you're wrong. You did something that was

634
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 2: some behavior that was inappropriate, but that can very often

635
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 2: be connected to the systems that we are living in.

636
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 2: And I think people don't see those systems until it

637
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 2: sometimes it's pointed out to them. And so for me, also,

638
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 2: I'm a sociologist too, so I think about things in

639
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: this way where it's our own experiences are often connected

640
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 2: to the experiences of others, and that's really where the

641
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 2: power comes from when we start to say that this

642
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 2: is not an individualized kind of failing, but that we

643
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 2: are part of something that has in many cases happened

644
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 2: to us, and that we need to be able to

645
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,720
Speaker 2: reclaim our power, to be able to sort of say,

646
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 2: here are the ways that we are now demanding to

647
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 2: be able to address these issues. So to sort of

648
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 2: wrap it up, I would say, for me, I absolutely

649
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 2: see storytelling as a part of public health and a

650
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 2: part of what we need to do to just really

651
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 2: kind of increase our humanity and our connection and our

652
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 2: empathy to each other, which I think is really, in

653
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 2: my opinion, the way that we're going to solve many

654
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,919
Speaker 2: of these issues that we are currently dealing with.

655
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: I agree, Thank you for it. So what advice would

656
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 1: you give to eighteen year old future doctor Hackett?

657
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 2: I probably give her the same advice I give myself today,

658
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 2: which is I have a quote here by my computer.

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00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,280
Speaker 2: It says, the privilege of a lifetime is to become

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00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,359
Speaker 2: who you truly are, and that's Carl Jung And I

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00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 2: think for me, it's really allowing yourself to recognize and

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00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 2: to realize and to explore and to understand who you

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00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 2: truly are. And how do you do that? I think

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00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 2: it comes from listening. I think it comes from listening

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00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 2: to yourself, listening to the messages that you're getting from

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00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 2: the universe and from others, and being able to discern

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00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 2: what are the things that are going to get you

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00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 2: to that very next step. So it's listening and being still,

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00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 2: but it's also recognizing that this is a process for

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00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: you to find out who you really are.

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00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: And where can we stay connected with you? Doctor Hackett?

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00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: What is your website as well as any social media

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00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: channels you'd like to share?

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00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:41,240
Speaker 2: So my main social media is LinkedIn, which is perfectly fine.

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00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 2: So that's where you can find me a Martine Hackett

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00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 2: on LinkedIn. And I also have co founded an organization

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00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 2: called Birth Justice Warriors where we address black maternal and

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00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 2: infant mortality on Long Island, and that's Birth Justice Warriors

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00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 2: dot com.

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00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: And where can we listen to the podcast?

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00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 2: The podcast is avail where all podcasts are available. So

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00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 2: it's Untold Stories Life with a severe autoimmune condition. Perfect, well,

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00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 2: we should include all of that in our show notes.

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00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for sending some time with you today,

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00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 2: doctor Hackett. I appreciate it, Doctor Troy, it was my pleasure.

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00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 2: Thank you.

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00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Doctor Hackett was able to join us

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00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 1: and share her insights and tips on advocacy with us

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00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 1: for this conversation, So learn more about her work, or

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00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 1: to check out untold stories Life with a severe autoimmune condition.

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00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: Be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for

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00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 1: Blackgirls dot com slash Session four twenty four, and don't

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00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 1: forget to text this episode to two of your girls

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00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: right now and tell them to check it out. Did

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00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 1: you know that you could leave us a voicemail with

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00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: your questions or suggestions for the podcast. If you have

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00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 1: movies or books you like us to review, or have

698
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: thoughts about topics you like us to discuss, drop us

699
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,359
Speaker 1: a message at Memo dot fm slash Therapy for Black

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00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 1: Girls and let us know what's on your mind. We

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00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 1: just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking

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00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 1: for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory

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00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory and don't

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00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 1: forget to follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls,

705
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 1: or join us over in our Patreon community at community

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00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced

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00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 1: by Elise Ellis, Indechubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done

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00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me

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00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 1: again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation

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Speaker 1: with you all real soon. Take good care,