WEBVTT - To Remember Occupy, Part One 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:06.040 Welcome. It could happen here pod a podcast that is 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:09.440 today about the fact that ten years ago it did happen. 0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:12.920 And when when when I when I say it did happen, 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:15.960 I mean we occupied an extremely large number of places, 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:19.200 and we did so in interesting and incredibly bizarre ways. 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:21.279 And with with with me to talk about this is 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:25.239 Garrison as always. I like that you used the Twitter 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:28.440 handle for our podcast, not the actual name, but that's fine. 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:34.120 Where can it where can it go for it? But 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:37.800 hello with me, I have I have my special guest, 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:42.240 Vicky Ostrowil, who is an agitator, who is a writer, 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:47.159 who has done many many things, probably most famously writing 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:52.640 the book In Defense of Looting Um from Bold Press, 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:57.200 Bold Type Press, Bultypress. Yeah, very good book. People got 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:01.040 very bad, people got very angry. Yeah, thank you. It's 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:02.840 it's really I'm really excited to be here to to 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:05.920 talk about the the anniversary of Occupy from which is 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:08.240 basically you know when I when I all got this 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:11.039 whole train rolling, So yeah, and the the other the 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:13.520 other thing um that that it is probably relevant here 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:15.520 is that Vicky was one of the first people at 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:19.640 Occupy and and little correct me if I'm wrong about this. 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:22.280 I found an oblique reference to this in one of 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:26.320 the things I read. You facilitated the first meeting, Yes, 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:29.920 the yeah, yeah, I got it's on the record now, 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:34.280 yeah I I uh yeah during UM, during the general 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:37.560 New York City General Assembly it was called in August. UM, 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:40.679 there was you know, uh, ad Busters hopefully called for 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:43.560 a general assembly, and you know, a bunch of us 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:45.959 sort of went down there and there was a tanky 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:49.280 party there um doing a general assembly, which was just 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:53.800 them on speakers, UM, doing their regular ranting. Um hadn't 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:57.760 changed much in ten years, um and uh and we um. Yeah. 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.480 So a bunch of us just went and sat down, uh, 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:02.280 you know, to the side of it, and started an 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:06.400 actual general assembly. And by by by happenstance, I I've 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:08.760 associated that meeting and it was the first and last 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:14.320 occupy media amor fassilitating. Yeah. Okay, so I want to 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:18.920 rule back a little bit too, just before the start 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:23.120 of occupied because yeah, the more thinking about this, the 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:25.360 more have just realized that two thousand eleven was just 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:28.800 a profoundly weird time. In a lot of ways. I 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:32.560 think people are forgotten, Like the entire American security state 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:35.239 is at this point being terrorized by you joint anonymous 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:37.920 lull sick hacking campaign called anti Sick, the symbol of 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:40.959 which is a guy in a guy fox mask wearing 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:43.320 a monocle, in a top hat. And this was just 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:46.320 like normal, Yes, this was the thing that I was like, 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:48.120 Oh yeah, yeah, it's it's the it's it's the it's 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:51.520 the anti seck top hat, full faced guy in a monocle. 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:54.400 Fun fact about that, just before we forget David Gramer 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:57.239 Rest in Peace, who was there in the early days 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:00.880 organizing claimed and um that he had he had heard 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:03.200 and talked to the some of the like overheard the 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:05.800 police talking about the reason they didn't sweep the occupying 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.240 encampment the first day when we were pretty weak, frankly, 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:09.920 or the first week, was because there were a bunchet 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:13.160 guy fox masks and they were scared. They were scared 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:16.600 they were going to get hacked. If they were scared, 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:18.320 they were going to hack them and steal there. Yeah. 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:21.920 So it was a weird time indeed. Yeah. Yeah, And 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:25.280 I think that the other thing that's you know, I 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:27.240 think important about this time period if we're looking back 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:29.160 at what occupied was, is that so this is this 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:34.320 is three years after the the financial collapse, and you know, 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:36.360 so I think this is you know, in the room 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:39.840 to two eleven. There's been a few there's been a 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:41.920 few protests. There's been there was a big thing increased 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:44.480 two eight that was kind of related, kind of unrelated. 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:47.040 But I think in my sense of you know, I 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:49.680 was like, I don't know, I was like thirteen. I 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:51.520 was like I was like an actual baby child. But 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:53.640 my sensitive was kind of just like there's that there's 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:56.800 this like sense that everyone just kind of waiting for 0:03:56.840 --> 0:04:00.120 something to happen. Yeah, and it's just like hadn't and 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:02.160 it's just like kept going and kept going and kept going, 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:05.480 and then you know, and and then and then Genesia 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:09.840 starts and suddenly there's you know, they're there. There's Protestant Tenessia, 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:13.000 there's part in Egypt. There's like people fighting tanks in 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:16.680 the street in Bahrain, and you know, and this this 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:18.200 is you know, this this becomes down at the up 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:21.880 spring and it starts to spread to a lot of places. 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:24.200 And Vicky, I want to talk I want to ask 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:27.719 you about this because because you were in Spain when 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:30.680 it started started there when talking about what what what 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:34.160 was going on there. And yeah, so I wasn't there 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:38.279 when it started. Um but but but yes, um basically 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:39.960 you know, and then and I want to shout out, 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:41.679 like there were there were a bunch of like movements, 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:43.560 Like in two thousand eight, right after the crash, there 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:45.680 were a bunch of protests like outside Wall Street. They 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:47.440 were very small, but they were like sort of the 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:49.880 like produced some images. And then there was you know, 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:52.919 in two thousand uh nine, there's the Oscar Grant rebellion 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:56.320 in Oakland, and you have the Madison occupation earlier in 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:59.480 two thousand eleven, um where they where the workers unions 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:03.480 took over the state House. Yeah, everyone does. It was 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.360 actually really important at the time. Um but yeah, so 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:08.720 so you know, so I think I'm glad you brought 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:10.880 up Greece because I think actually Greece really that that 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:14.560 sort of anarchist rebellion thousand nine really kicked off the 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:17.160 cycle in a certain way, but also didn't quite It 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:19.080 wasn't quite the first domino, you know, it was sort 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:21.719 of more of a like forecast. So yeah, so Arab Spring, 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:25.640 uh you know, is huge. It's this huge, huge event, 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:28.960 and the US media is loving it because obviously like 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:32.200 these sort of old you know, quote unquote Marxist dictators 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:34.440 are falling um, and so of course the US is 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:37.320 like all about it um, which of course later later 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:40.159 on the return of the tankies will use to um 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:44.160 to confuse everyone on the US left and destroy all 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:49.000 solidarity with Syria anyway. UM. But that's neither here nor there. UM. 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:51.520 So then then in Ah, then in that summer, UM, 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:54.640 you get this this wave of early summer like May 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:56.840 and June. In fact, the fifteenth of May was when 0:05:56.880 --> 0:05:59.200 the movement started in Spain, and then it starts soon 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:01.480 again in Greece. And it was similar to occupy in 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:04.400 that there was these people coming together in these sort 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:07.400 of encampments in the center of the city. UM. I 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:10.120 don't know if people remember um or or know this 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.120 history economically, but Spain and Greece had recently been sort 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:16.080 of going through these like big big booms, economic booms 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:18.280 just for about five or six years that turned out 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:20.600 to be real estate bubbles funded by their entry into 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:22.920 the EU, and two thousand and age just smashed that 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:25.560 and they were just like incredibly impoverished. I mean, like 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:29.239 Spain was facing some fifty youth unemployment Greece was like similar, 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:33.320 Spain has recovered more than Greece has in the intervening years, 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.120 but it's still bad. Um. So so yeah, so you 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:38.120 had all these It was it was you know, predominantly 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:41.040 young folks who were um you know, had been pushed 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:42.680 out of the economy, who had been pushed out of 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:45.359 their homes, whose families had loft their homes. Um, gathering 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:47.800 together and it was all over both countries and it 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:51.080 was huge. Um. I happened to just be in Barcelona. 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:53.679 I had been on a planned vacation with some friends. 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:55.800 Um you know that we had we had planned like 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:58.039 sort of six months earlier when it while popped off. 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:00.560 And I had also just started my writing Um, I 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:03.280 would say career, but that's very generous. Um. I had 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:08.000 started technically being paid for writing things. And they were like, oh, 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:10.160 right about it, Like let's like cover it while you're there. 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:13.040 And because no one in the US was talking about 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:16.240 what was going on in Spain when my article popped up, 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:18.760 like and this is like this is really strange. But 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:20.440 it was like the early days of Twitter as well, 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:22.920 um two eleven, Like I guess Twitter started two nine 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:27.040 or something, and so like so the the one of 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:29.160 the accounts from the camp tweets out my article. So 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:30.560 I went there the next day. I was like, I 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:32.480 wrote that article and then I was like embedded for 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:34.560 a week, and I was there for like kind of 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:37.000 the height of the popular power of the movement in Barcelona. 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:38.400 Only for a week, but I was there on the 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:40.360 day when there was a two and a half million 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:44.160 person march through Barcelona, just like still probably the biggest 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:45.960 march I've ever been part of it and probably ever 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:49.120 will be. Um was like lat and so you know, 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:51.560 so that goes on for for a few months in 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:54.080 Greece and Barcelona, it sort of hits similar limits that 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:56.640 Occupied would eventually hit, which is that like you know 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:59.360 that that if you can take the space away from people, 0:07:59.840 --> 0:08:02.200 that that's that's the common ground, and like you can't 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:05.440 really have the movement without the encampment. And also all 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:08.720 the way in which the camps sort of force a 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:12.200 kind of internal naval gazing and people like get really 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:14.960 obsessed with maintaining the camp rather than the struggle with 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:17.240 the city at large. All of those, all of those 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:19.400 contradictions sort of like came up in Spain and Greece 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:21.840 as well. But at the time, you know, I was 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:23.120 there for the height of it. I come back to 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:24.560 New York, I'm like, this is going to happen in 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:26.800 the US, like it has to. Um. I think a 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:29.520 lot of folks who had been watching felt that way 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:31.480 as well. UM. I actually took part in this thing 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:35.200 called bloomberg Ville, which was like, yeah, fifty people on 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:38.640 a sidewalk. Um was quite from Michael Bloomberg, right, Um, 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:41.720 fifty people on a sidewalk. Fifty people was general. I 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:43.559 was like, when we were doing really well and mostly 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:45.559 fifteen of us is like fifteen of us on a 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:48.360 flidewalk um in the financial district, like getting yelled at 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:51.560 by cops. Um, you know, sleeping on cardboard, you know, 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:56.400 occupy style, but without any attention or solidarity. Um. And 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:59.040 But because I had been in Barcelona and I still 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:00.680 have these carbrads in Barcelona, was like, oh my god, 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:02.480 we're doing it in New York. So we had this 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:05.680 thing where Bloombergville, which like twenty people like got to 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:08.000 talk to a general assembly in Barcelona at the height 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:10.640 of its power, like on a like internet link, like 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:14.360 a really early internet link, you know. Um, and you 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:16.600 know so so so so there was all this energy 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:19.120 that was happening. And then I think really crucially the 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:21.600 London riots pop off, and that doesn't get talked about 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:24.800 very much and anymore partially because of the UK left 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:28.160 really stabbed Here's the bath during that and and and 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:31.720 have and and repressed the memory of it largely, um 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.920 and have suffered ever since, in my opinion, strategically. UM. 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:37.040 But you know that was for us in the US, 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:40.640 that was huge. It was huge watching um, watching those 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:43.319 riots unfold, like you know, again, this was like early 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.280 live streaming, so like we were like watching live feeds 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:47.840 of the riots, you know, which like was not a 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:49.880 thing that you could really do without a TV before. 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:51.679 There was just like there was a lot of stuff 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:55.040 going on that felt exciting and and it was and 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:58.040 really important and inevitable that it would come to the 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:10.439 US because things were so messed up over here. I 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:12.920 think we should talk about what a general assembly actually 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:16.000 is because I think a lot of people are we're 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:18.640 going to have like never actually ran into what exactly 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:20.520 is going on, or have sort of forgotten in the 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:25.080 last ten years after they sort of fallen out of favor. Sure, yeah, 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:27.600 I mean it's um, it was never my favorite either, honestly. 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:31.480 But it's a it's a meeting style UM designed. UM. 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:36.560 It actually does largely actually come from from European anarchist traditions, UM, 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:38.920 from from Spain and Greece. But as as many of 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:41.520 us know, UM, a lot of those traditions go back 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:44.840 further UM and have crossed crossed the water general sumbis. 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:47.400 Actually there's a long history of them in indigenous communities 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:50.280 in Turtle Island, for example. So it's an old meeting 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:54.080 style UM, in which um, the Quakers also the Quakers 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:57.560 UM famously also sort of uh sort of co opted 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:00.840 it from from indigenous folks out here on the East coast. UM. 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.720 But UM, it's a meeting style in which, uh, you know, 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:06.080 with the exception of a facilitator which is occasionally but 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:10.920 not always present, UM, everyone is able to speak UM together. 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:14.400 There is something, there's an agenda sometimes, but it's basically 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:18.680 a meeting designed where everyone present in the meeting has 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:22.839 like an equal voice, And it's not really designed generally 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:27.680 for UM decision making specifically or with like really specific 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:30.480 goals in mind. Often, although there will be sort of 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:33.520 like things that are trying to get settled UM but 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:37.760 it's it's it's it's designed to allow, you know, a 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:40.440 very very multi vocal approach and for everyone to sort 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:43.480 of put in their their thoughts and their ideas. UM 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.600 and often is connected, although not necessarily, but is often 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:51.079 connected to consensus UM operation where UM things can't get 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:53.880 sort of decided on unless everyone sort of agrees UM. 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:58.240 And in occupy UM that was the general assembly was 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:01.360 sort of UM was bit controversial because it was just 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:04.880 whoever showed up obviously participates in it, so, you know, 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:07.920 unlike unlike you know, an organizational meeting where you you know, 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:09.800 everyone knows each other and you have to have a 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:12.560 you know, you have to be there with an invite 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:16.400 or whatever. UM, you know, whatever cranky wing nut UM 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:20.319 wanted to show up could UM. And that had pluses 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:22.880 and minuses. It was charming sometimes, but it was also 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:26.320 very frustrating. UM. And in New York where I was UM, 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:29.800 it was made almost impossible to function by this thing 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:33.120 called the people's Mike UM oh, which I think still 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:36.160 happens sometimes people even Mike check UM and and then 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:38.280 everyone repeats what was said. But that means that it 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:41.120 takes four times as long to talk as normal so 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:43.119 when you have a wing nut, you know, like advocating 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:45.560 for wrong Paul, and then you've got thirty people echoing 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:50.240 him every four words, it makes it makes discussion completely impossible. 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:53.160 And a microhistory of the People's mic. The reason that 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:57.120 happened was because in the first week in Zukkati Park, Um, 0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:59.280 whenever we got on a megaphone, police would come and 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:01.760 arrest whoever was on the megaphone because you weren't allowed 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:04.960 to use amplified sound in New York. And one organizer 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:06.960 was like, oh no, no, we can like use the 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:09.160 people's mic. We can repeat back to each other. And 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:10.800 this is when we they're still mostly like thirty to 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:12.800 forty people in the park at any one time. It's 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.839 very small. That didn't feel so bad, but then when 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:20.439 the movement really got big, the People's mike became completely unwieldy. 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:24.640 And also was a response to a was a cowardly 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.720 response to police repression frankly um and was a way 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:30.440 of So the people's mic is is, in my opinion, 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:34.040 reactionary form anyway that is hit. So it's been ten years. 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:35.480 I haven't been able to complain about this in like 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:38.320 eight years, thank you, so much um anyway, So yeah, 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:40.480 so the general Assembly is just a meeting form um 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:43.760 that often often associated with anarchy, anarchist practice or radical 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:46.880 democratic practice UM, in which sort of consensus is aimed 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:50.079 for by allowing everyone to speak there much. I would say, Yeah, 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:52.640 So this, this, I think gets us back to where 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:57.120 we opened this episode, which is ed Busters calls an 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:00.880 event with literally no plans to like could do anything. 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.680 They're just like, yeah, everyone, we're occupy in Wall Street. 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:07.120 And then yeah, and you know, as it's talked about 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:14.640 the beginning of it, you guys basically hijack well sort of, 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:18.280 I mean, so Adbusters. Adbusters doesn't show up like you said, 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.480 there's I've never met an Adbusters person um. And it 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:23.200 was funny, like we would do jokes about it. But 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:25.520 I think it's also thinking about this in preparation for 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.520 this interview. It's also interesting because Adbusters, in their culture 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:31.440 jamming is kind of like one of the results of 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:33.640 the sort of altar globalization movement of the like late 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:36.680 nineties and early two thousands, the summit hopping stuff um, 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:40.200 the energy movement of like one generation ahead of occupy UM. 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:42.440 So I think it's sort of appropriate that Adbusters sort 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:45.720 of like you know, was present in this legacy in 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:47.520 a certain way, and a lot of those organizers were 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:49.800 as well. But yes, I'm sorry, I did I just 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:52.120 jump in for you. No, no, no, it's okay. UM 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:56.360 the yeah, so so so so a bunch of people 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:59.000 I don't actually know who calls for an August second, 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:01.760 you know, general only to talk about the call for 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:05.720 September seventeenth to occupy Wall Street. UM. And at that, 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:08.040 at that point, that's when the thing I was describing 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:11.720 earlier like happens where where UM. You know, we a 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:13.800 bunch of folks and and I really want to underline 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:15.520 that most of them were people who had been in 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:18.680 Spain or Greece. UM. David Graber was also. There was 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:20.120 like a lot of old heads. There was like a 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:22.640 there was a comrade from Japan. UM. It was a 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:26.360 very international crew who had like had experience in these movements. 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:29.720 Over the summer, UM came and had this general Assembly 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:31.680 and sort of ran it that way and broke out. 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:34.000 We had we broke off working groups and then there 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:36.600 was meetings sort of once a week and then working 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:39.680 group needs within that UM and general assemblies. From August 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.360 two until September seventeenth, at which point, um, you know, 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:44.840 occupy the date, the date that Adbusters had called for 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:48.200 actually happened. So my my impression of this, and I was, 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.320 I was very small. I had very limited idea of 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:53.600 what was going on. The way I remember in the 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:59.960 media is that like the the the media was weirdly 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.080 interested in it in a way that I've never seen them. 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:06.120 I've never seen them cover another social movement that wasn't 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:09.240 like literally burning their offices down, And it was like 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:11.320 it was like in the beginning, it was I mean, 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:13.760 you know, obviously the right wing media is losing their minds, 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:18.800 but they were kind of kind of supportive of it, 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:21.400 and I think, I don't know, I always say, you 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:23.480 think about this. One of the things that that happens 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:26.360 in both in both Greece and in Spain is that 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:30.160 the product movement of the squares is these electoral movements, 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:33.560 and these electoral movements just fail like catastrophically, like Starsia 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.360 takes power, like like the they like you, they they 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:39.120 have they have they have a like their their finance 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:41.760 minister is a left communist. He's like he is the 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:44.280 most fire left person ever like to hold office since 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:49.120 like the Spanish anarchists in ninety six and they employed austerity. Anyways, 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:51.840 in Spain you get Potamos and it's like, wow, okay, 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:53.040 you have you know, they had this thing called the 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.160 electoral war machine. They're they're gonna take over the Spanish 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:56.680 but because some then they just it collapsed. It just 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:59.360 doesn't work. They've they've never like they've they've they've they've 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:03.240 never taken power, They've never really got anywhere. They they 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:07.720 successfully evicted a bunch of squats in Catalonia. But yeah, 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:10.399 but and I think this is my impression if it 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:12.240 was that I think the US media thought they could 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:16.480 they could do this to occupy and and I think 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:18.720 they kind of it's weird because looking so you know, 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:21.680 like I I come in and like to to this 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:24.920 kind of stuff fromund On seventeen, and I think it 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:27.199 it's like it weirdly worked. But it worked because they 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:30.159 were able to create the anti occupy people. Yeah, so 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:32.920 it's like yeah, and so they did finally get their 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.800 like cadre of like pseudo left organizers so they could 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:37.639 used to build Democratic party. It's just it was like 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:40.320 Jacobin and then I'll think the whole the whole sort 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:44.840 of anti occupy group. Yeah, so those folks were actually 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:49.320 UM active during Occupy UM critiquing the people who now 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:52.920 most loudly UM claim the legacy of Occupy UM. You know, 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:54.480 as you said, Jacobin, a lot of those sort of 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:57.840 social democratic groups UM at the time, UM, and those 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:00.359 of us who were there, remember they hated Occupy. They 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:02.720 would show up, but they like would critique it constantly. 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:04.960 They would write all these articles about how it was terrible, 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:07.919 there were no demands, it was too disorganized. And then 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:10.680 I think, you know, when Black Revolt got put on 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:12.439 the table, they were like, bring back Occupy. We liked 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:15.720 that better. But but I think to be as harsh 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:19.200 as possible, but UM, I think like, UM, you know, yes, 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:21.520 there was there was a lot of media coverage. It 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:24.600 didn't feel super friendly at the time. UM, there was 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:26.960 a lot of There was a lot of media coverage, 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:29.200 Like the media was very curious, it was very interested, 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:31.399 but a lot of that coverage was like why do 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.240 they have no demands? Like why are they so disorganized? 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:36.720 Why are they so smelly? Whatever? Like there was a 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:38.119 lot of like there was a lot of slander in 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:40.720 the press, but also a lot of attention UM, which 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:42.520 you know, it turned turned out was as good as 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:44.520 you could get, but at the time didn't didn't feel 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:48.440 very good particularly, I think. Yeah, but yes, those those forces, 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:52.400 those forces were already present um in you know, in 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:57.720 in occupy itself, UM, you know, sort of denouncing it 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:01.000 um for its disorganization UM and then eventually claiming that 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:04.000 it was the reason that Bernie Sanders happened, which isn't 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:06.440 totally wrong. Yeah, I want to be really clear, like 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:08.680 I think, and I think what we'll get into this more, 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:11.080 but I think like the thing that about the thing 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:12.840 that was important about occupy and the thing that the 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:16.280 people who in my opinion, like my comrades during occupy 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:18.480 or people I meet who were like doing Occupy stuff 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:20.479 but like who I didn't know, but like now we 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.040 I you know, I roll with them. Most of us 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:25.439 have the have the you know, the analysis, like it 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:27.760 was really important that we were doing politics in the street. 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:30.479 It was really important that we were back together they 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:32.960 were talking politics. And then there were really really intense, 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:35.919 extreme limits to what Occupy could have done. UM. And 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:38.600 I think Oakland really pushed those UM and and you know, 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:41.159 and got to those but UM and I think the 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:43.680 folks who are like no, no no, Occupy was good at 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:46.080