1 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: Welcome. It could happen here pod a podcast that is 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: today about the fact that ten years ago it did happen. 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: And when when when I when I say it did happen, 4 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: I mean we occupied an extremely large number of places, 5 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: and we did so in interesting and incredibly bizarre ways. 6 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 1: And with with with me to talk about this is 7 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: Garrison as always. I like that you used the Twitter 8 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: handle for our podcast, not the actual name, but that's fine. 9 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: Where can it where can it go for it? But 10 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: hello with me, I have I have my special guest, 11 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: Vicky Ostrowil, who is an agitator, who is a writer, 12 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: who has done many many things, probably most famously writing 13 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: the book In Defense of Looting Um from Bold Press, 14 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: Bold Type Press, Bultypress. Yeah, very good book. People got 15 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: very bad, people got very angry. Yeah, thank you. It's 16 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: it's really I'm really excited to be here to to 17 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: talk about the the anniversary of Occupy from which is 18 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: basically you know when I when I all got this 19 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: whole train rolling, So yeah, and the the other the 20 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: other thing um that that it is probably relevant here 21 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: is that Vicky was one of the first people at 22 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: Occupy and and little correct me if I'm wrong about this. 23 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: I found an oblique reference to this in one of 24 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 1: the things I read. You facilitated the first meeting, Yes, 25 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: the yeah, yeah, I got it's on the record now, 26 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: yeah I I uh yeah during UM, during the general 27 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: New York City General Assembly it was called in August. UM, 28 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: there was you know, uh, ad Busters hopefully called for 29 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: a general assembly, and you know, a bunch of us 30 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: sort of went down there and there was a tanky 31 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: party there um doing a general assembly, which was just 32 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: them on speakers, UM, doing their regular ranting. Um hadn't 33 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: changed much in ten years, um and uh and we um. Yeah. 34 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: So a bunch of us just went and sat down, uh, 35 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: you know, to the side of it, and started an 36 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: actual general assembly. And by by by happenstance, I I've 37 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: associated that meeting and it was the first and last 38 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: occupy media amor fassilitating. Yeah. Okay, so I want to 39 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: rule back a little bit too, just before the start 40 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: of occupied because yeah, the more thinking about this, the 41 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: more have just realized that two thousand eleven was just 42 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: a profoundly weird time. In a lot of ways. I 43 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: think people are forgotten, Like the entire American security state 44 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,239 Speaker 1: is at this point being terrorized by you joint anonymous 45 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: lull sick hacking campaign called anti Sick, the symbol of 46 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,959 Speaker 1: which is a guy in a guy fox mask wearing 47 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: a monocle, in a top hat. And this was just 48 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: like normal, Yes, this was the thing that I was like, 49 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, it's it's the it's it's the it's 50 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: the anti seck top hat, full faced guy in a monocle. 51 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: Fun fact about that, just before we forget David Gramer 52 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,239 Speaker 1: Rest in Peace, who was there in the early days 53 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: organizing claimed and um that he had he had heard 54 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: and talked to the some of the like overheard the 55 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 1: police talking about the reason they didn't sweep the occupying 56 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: encampment the first day when we were pretty weak, frankly, 57 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 1: or the first week, was because there were a bunchet 58 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: guy fox masks and they were scared. They were scared 59 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: they were going to get hacked. If they were scared, 60 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: they were going to hack them and steal there. Yeah. 61 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 1: So it was a weird time indeed. Yeah. Yeah, And 62 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: I think that the other thing that's you know, I 63 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: think important about this time period if we're looking back 64 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: at what occupied was, is that so this is this 65 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: is three years after the the financial collapse, and you know, 66 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: so I think this is you know, in the room 67 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: to two eleven. There's been a few there's been a 68 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: few protests. There's been there was a big thing increased 69 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: two eight that was kind of related, kind of unrelated. 70 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: But I think in my sense of you know, I 71 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: was like, I don't know, I was like thirteen. I 72 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: was like I was like an actual baby child. But 73 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: my sensitive was kind of just like there's that there's 74 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: this like sense that everyone just kind of waiting for 75 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: something to happen. Yeah, and it's just like hadn't and 76 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: it's just like kept going and kept going and kept going, 77 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: and then you know, and and then and then Genesia 78 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: starts and suddenly there's you know, they're there. There's Protestant Tenessia, 79 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: there's part in Egypt. There's like people fighting tanks in 80 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: the street in Bahrain, and you know, and this this 81 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: is you know, this this becomes down at the up 82 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: spring and it starts to spread to a lot of places. 83 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: And Vicky, I want to talk I want to ask 84 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 1: you about this because because you were in Spain when 85 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: it started started there when talking about what what what 86 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: was going on there. And yeah, so I wasn't there 87 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: when it started. Um but but but yes, um basically 88 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: you know, and then and I want to shout out, 89 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:41,679 Speaker 1: like there were there were a bunch of like movements, 90 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: Like in two thousand eight, right after the crash, there 91 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: were a bunch of protests like outside Wall Street. They 92 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: were very small, but they were like sort of the 93 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: like produced some images. And then there was you know, 94 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 1: in two thousand uh nine, there's the Oscar Grant rebellion 95 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: in Oakland, and you have the Madison occupation earlier in 96 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: two thousand eleven, um where they where the workers unions 97 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 1: took over the state House. Yeah, everyone does. It was 98 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: actually really important at the time. Um but yeah, so 99 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 1: so you know, so I think I'm glad you brought 100 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: up Greece because I think actually Greece really that that 101 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: sort of anarchist rebellion thousand nine really kicked off the 102 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: cycle in a certain way, but also didn't quite It 103 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: wasn't quite the first domino, you know, it was sort 104 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: of more of a like forecast. So yeah, so Arab Spring, 105 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: uh you know, is huge. It's this huge, huge event, 106 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: and the US media is loving it because obviously like 107 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: these sort of old you know, quote unquote Marxist dictators 108 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: are falling um, and so of course the US is 109 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: like all about it um, which of course later later 110 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: on the return of the tankies will use to um 111 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: to confuse everyone on the US left and destroy all 112 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: solidarity with Syria anyway. UM. But that's neither here nor there. UM. 113 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: So then then in Ah, then in that summer, UM, 114 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: you get this this wave of early summer like May 115 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 1: and June. In fact, the fifteenth of May was when 116 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: the movement started in Spain, and then it starts soon 117 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: again in Greece. And it was similar to occupy in 118 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: that there was these people coming together in these sort 119 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: of encampments in the center of the city. UM. I 120 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: don't know if people remember um or or know this 121 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: history economically, but Spain and Greece had recently been sort 122 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: of going through these like big big booms, economic booms 123 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 1: just for about five or six years that turned out 124 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: to be real estate bubbles funded by their entry into 125 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: the EU, and two thousand and age just smashed that 126 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: and they were just like incredibly impoverished. I mean, like 127 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,239 Speaker 1: Spain was facing some fifty youth unemployment Greece was like similar, 128 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: Spain has recovered more than Greece has in the intervening years, 129 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: but it's still bad. Um. So so yeah, so you 130 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: had all these It was it was you know, predominantly 131 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: young folks who were um you know, had been pushed 132 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: out of the economy, who had been pushed out of 133 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 1: their homes, whose families had loft their homes. Um, gathering 134 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: together and it was all over both countries and it 135 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: was huge. Um. I happened to just be in Barcelona. 136 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,679 Speaker 1: I had been on a planned vacation with some friends. 137 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: Um you know that we had we had planned like 138 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 1: sort of six months earlier when it while popped off. 139 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: And I had also just started my writing Um, I 140 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: would say career, but that's very generous. Um. I had 141 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: started technically being paid for writing things. And they were like, oh, 142 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: right about it, Like let's like cover it while you're there. 143 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: And because no one in the US was talking about 144 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: what was going on in Spain when my article popped up, 145 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: like and this is like this is really strange. But 146 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: it was like the early days of Twitter as well, 147 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: um two eleven, Like I guess Twitter started two nine 148 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: or something, and so like so the the one of 149 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: the accounts from the camp tweets out my article. So 150 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: I went there the next day. I was like, I 151 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: wrote that article and then I was like embedded for 152 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: a week, and I was there for like kind of 153 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: the height of the popular power of the movement in Barcelona. 154 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: Only for a week, but I was there on the 155 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: day when there was a two and a half million 156 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: person march through Barcelona, just like still probably the biggest 157 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: march I've ever been part of it and probably ever 158 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: will be. Um was like lat and so you know, 159 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: so that goes on for for a few months in 160 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: Greece and Barcelona, it sort of hits similar limits that 161 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: Occupied would eventually hit, which is that like you know 162 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: that that if you can take the space away from people, 163 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: that that's that's the common ground, and like you can't 164 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: really have the movement without the encampment. And also all 165 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: the way in which the camps sort of force a 166 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: kind of internal naval gazing and people like get really 167 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: obsessed with maintaining the camp rather than the struggle with 168 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: the city at large. All of those, all of those 169 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: contradictions sort of like came up in Spain and Greece 170 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: as well. But at the time, you know, I was 171 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: there for the height of it. I come back to 172 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: New York, I'm like, this is going to happen in 173 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: the US, like it has to. Um. I think a 174 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: lot of folks who had been watching felt that way 175 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: as well. UM. I actually took part in this thing 176 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: called bloomberg Ville, which was like, yeah, fifty people on 177 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: a sidewalk. Um was quite from Michael Bloomberg, right, Um, 178 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: fifty people on a sidewalk. Fifty people was general. I 179 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 1: was like, when we were doing really well and mostly 180 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:45,559 Speaker 1: fifteen of us is like fifteen of us on a 181 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: flidewalk um in the financial district, like getting yelled at 182 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: by cops. Um, you know, sleeping on cardboard, you know, 183 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: occupy style, but without any attention or solidarity. Um. And 184 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: But because I had been in Barcelona and I still 185 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: have these carbrads in Barcelona, was like, oh my god, 186 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: we're doing it in New York. So we had this 187 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: thing where Bloombergville, which like twenty people like got to 188 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: talk to a general assembly in Barcelona at the height 189 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: of its power, like on a like internet link, like 190 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: a really early internet link, you know. Um, and you 191 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: know so so so so there was all this energy 192 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: that was happening. And then I think really crucially the 193 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: London riots pop off, and that doesn't get talked about 194 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: very much and anymore partially because of the UK left 195 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: really stabbed Here's the bath during that and and and 196 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: have and and repressed the memory of it largely, um 197 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: and have suffered ever since, in my opinion, strategically. UM. 198 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: But you know that was for us in the US, 199 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: that was huge. It was huge watching um, watching those 200 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,319 Speaker 1: riots unfold, like you know, again, this was like early 201 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: live streaming, so like we were like watching live feeds 202 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: of the riots, you know, which like was not a 203 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: thing that you could really do without a TV before. 204 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:51,679 Speaker 1: There was just like there was a lot of stuff 205 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: going on that felt exciting and and it was and 206 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: really important and inevitable that it would come to the 207 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:10,439 Speaker 1: US because things were so messed up over here. I 208 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: think we should talk about what a general assembly actually 209 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: is because I think a lot of people are we're 210 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: going to have like never actually ran into what exactly 211 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: is going on, or have sort of forgotten in the 212 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: last ten years after they sort of fallen out of favor. Sure, yeah, 213 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: I mean it's um, it was never my favorite either, honestly. 214 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: But it's a it's a meeting style UM designed. UM. 215 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: It actually does largely actually come from from European anarchist traditions, UM, 216 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: from from Spain and Greece. But as as many of 217 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: us know, UM, a lot of those traditions go back 218 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 1: further UM and have crossed crossed the water general sumbis. 219 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: Actually there's a long history of them in indigenous communities 220 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: in Turtle Island, for example. So it's an old meeting 221 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: style UM, in which um, the Quakers also the Quakers 222 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: UM famously also sort of uh sort of co opted 223 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: it from from indigenous folks out here on the East coast. UM. 224 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: But UM, it's a meeting style in which, uh, you know, 225 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: with the exception of a facilitator which is occasionally but 226 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: not always present, UM, everyone is able to speak UM together. 227 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: There is something, there's an agenda sometimes, but it's basically 228 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 1: a meeting designed where everyone present in the meeting has 229 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:22,839 Speaker 1: like an equal voice, And it's not really designed generally 230 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: for UM decision making specifically or with like really specific 231 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: goals in mind. Often, although there will be sort of 232 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: like things that are trying to get settled UM but 233 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's designed to allow, you know, a 234 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: very very multi vocal approach and for everyone to sort 235 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: of put in their their thoughts and their ideas. UM 236 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: and often is connected, although not necessarily, but is often 237 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:51,079 Speaker 1: connected to consensus UM operation where UM things can't get 238 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: sort of decided on unless everyone sort of agrees UM. 239 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: And in occupy UM that was the general assembly was 240 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: sort of UM was bit controversial because it was just 241 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: whoever showed up obviously participates in it, so, you know, 242 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: unlike unlike you know, an organizational meeting where you you know, 243 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: everyone knows each other and you have to have a 244 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: you know, you have to be there with an invite 245 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: or whatever. UM, you know, whatever cranky wing nut UM 246 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 1: wanted to show up could UM. And that had pluses 247 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: and minuses. It was charming sometimes, but it was also 248 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: very frustrating. UM. And in New York where I was UM, 249 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: it was made almost impossible to function by this thing 250 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: called the people's Mike UM oh, which I think still 251 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: happens sometimes people even Mike check UM and and then 252 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: everyone repeats what was said. But that means that it 253 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: takes four times as long to talk as normal so 254 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:43,119 Speaker 1: when you have a wing nut, you know, like advocating 255 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: for wrong Paul, and then you've got thirty people echoing 256 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: him every four words, it makes it makes discussion completely impossible. 257 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: And a microhistory of the People's mic. The reason that 258 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: happened was because in the first week in Zukkati Park, Um, 259 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: whenever we got on a megaphone, police would come and 260 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: arrest whoever was on the megaphone because you weren't allowed 261 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 1: to use amplified sound in New York. And one organizer 262 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: was like, oh no, no, we can like use the 263 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: people's mic. We can repeat back to each other. And 264 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: this is when we they're still mostly like thirty to 265 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: forty people in the park at any one time. It's 266 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,839 Speaker 1: very small. That didn't feel so bad, but then when 267 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 1: the movement really got big, the People's mike became completely unwieldy. 268 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: And also was a response to a was a cowardly 269 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: response to police repression frankly um and was a way 270 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: of So the people's mic is is, in my opinion, 271 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: reactionary form anyway that is hit. So it's been ten years. 272 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: I haven't been able to complain about this in like 273 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: eight years, thank you, so much um anyway, So yeah, 274 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: so the general Assembly is just a meeting form um 275 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: that often often associated with anarchy, anarchist practice or radical 276 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: democratic practice UM, in which sort of consensus is aimed 277 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,079 Speaker 1: for by allowing everyone to speak there much. I would say, Yeah, 278 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: So this, this, I think gets us back to where 279 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: we opened this episode, which is ed Busters calls an 280 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: event with literally no plans to like could do anything. 281 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: They're just like, yeah, everyone, we're occupy in Wall Street. 282 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: And then yeah, and you know, as it's talked about 283 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: the beginning of it, you guys basically hijack well sort of, 284 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: I mean, so Adbusters. Adbusters doesn't show up like you said, 285 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: there's I've never met an Adbusters person um. And it 286 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: was funny, like we would do jokes about it. But 287 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: I think it's also thinking about this in preparation for 288 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: this interview. It's also interesting because Adbusters, in their culture 289 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: jamming is kind of like one of the results of 290 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: the sort of altar globalization movement of the like late 291 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: nineties and early two thousands, the summit hopping stuff um, 292 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: the energy movement of like one generation ahead of occupy UM. 293 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: So I think it's sort of appropriate that Adbusters sort 294 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: of like you know, was present in this legacy in 295 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: a certain way, and a lot of those organizers were 296 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: as well. But yes, I'm sorry, I did I just 297 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: jump in for you. No, no, no, it's okay. UM 298 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: the yeah, so so so so a bunch of people 299 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: I don't actually know who calls for an August second, 300 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: you know, general only to talk about the call for 301 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: September seventeenth to occupy Wall Street. UM. And at that, 302 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: at that point, that's when the thing I was describing 303 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: earlier like happens where where UM. You know, we a 304 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: bunch of folks and and I really want to underline 305 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: that most of them were people who had been in 306 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: Spain or Greece. UM. David Graber was also. There was 307 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: like a lot of old heads. There was like a 308 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: there was a comrade from Japan. UM. It was a 309 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: very international crew who had like had experience in these movements. 310 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: Over the summer, UM came and had this general Assembly 311 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: and sort of ran it that way and broke out. 312 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: We had we broke off working groups and then there 313 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: was meetings sort of once a week and then working 314 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: group needs within that UM and general assemblies. From August 315 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: two until September seventeenth, at which point, um, you know, 316 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: occupy the date, the date that Adbusters had called for 317 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: actually happened. So my my impression of this, and I was, 318 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: I was very small. I had very limited idea of 319 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: what was going on. The way I remember in the 320 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: media is that like the the the media was weirdly 321 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: interested in it in a way that I've never seen them. 322 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: I've never seen them cover another social movement that wasn't 323 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: like literally burning their offices down, And it was like 324 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: it was like in the beginning, it was I mean, 325 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: you know, obviously the right wing media is losing their minds, 326 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: but they were kind of kind of supportive of it, 327 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: and I think, I don't know, I always say, you 328 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: think about this. One of the things that that happens 329 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: in both in both Greece and in Spain is that 330 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: the product movement of the squares is these electoral movements, 331 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: and these electoral movements just fail like catastrophically, like Starsia 332 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: takes power, like like the they like you, they they 333 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: have they have they have a like their their finance 334 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: minister is a left communist. He's like he is the 335 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: most fire left person ever like to hold office since 336 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: like the Spanish anarchists in ninety six and they employed austerity. Anyways, 337 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: in Spain you get Potamos and it's like, wow, okay, 338 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: you have you know, they had this thing called the 339 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: electoral war machine. They're they're gonna take over the Spanish 340 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: but because some then they just it collapsed. It just 341 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: doesn't work. They've they've never like they've they've they've they've 342 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: never taken power, They've never really got anywhere. They they 343 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: successfully evicted a bunch of squats in Catalonia. But yeah, 344 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 1: but and I think this is my impression if it 345 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: was that I think the US media thought they could 346 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: they could do this to occupy and and I think 347 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: they kind of it's weird because looking so you know, 348 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 1: like I I come in and like to to this 349 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: kind of stuff fromund On seventeen, and I think it 350 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 1: it's like it weirdly worked. But it worked because they 351 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 1: were able to create the anti occupy people. Yeah, so 352 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: it's like yeah, and so they did finally get their 353 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: like cadre of like pseudo left organizers so they could 354 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: used to build Democratic party. It's just it was like 355 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: Jacobin and then I'll think the whole the whole sort 356 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: of anti occupy group. Yeah, so those folks were actually 357 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: UM active during Occupy UM critiquing the people who now 358 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: most loudly UM claim the legacy of Occupy UM. You know, 359 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: as you said, Jacobin, a lot of those sort of 360 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: social democratic groups UM at the time, UM, and those 361 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: of us who were there, remember they hated Occupy. They 362 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: would show up, but they like would critique it constantly. 363 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: They would write all these articles about how it was terrible, 364 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: there were no demands, it was too disorganized. And then 365 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: I think, you know, when Black Revolt got put on 366 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 1: the table, they were like, bring back Occupy. We liked 367 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: that better. But but I think to be as harsh 368 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 1: as possible, but UM, I think like, UM, you know, yes, 369 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: there was there was a lot of media coverage. It 370 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: didn't feel super friendly at the time. UM, there was 371 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: a lot of There was a lot of media coverage, 372 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: Like the media was very curious, it was very interested, 373 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: but a lot of that coverage was like why do 374 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: they have no demands? Like why are they so disorganized? 375 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: Why are they so smelly? Whatever? Like there was a 376 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: lot of like there was a lot of slander in 377 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: the press, but also a lot of attention UM, which 378 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: you know, it turned turned out was as good as 379 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: you could get, but at the time didn't didn't feel 380 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,440 Speaker 1: very good particularly, I think. Yeah, but yes, those those forces, 381 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 1: those forces were already present um in you know, in 382 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: in occupy itself, UM, you know, sort of denouncing it 383 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: um for its disorganization UM and then eventually claiming that 384 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: it was the reason that Bernie Sanders happened, which isn't 385 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: totally wrong. Yeah, I want to be really clear, like 386 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: I think, and I think what we'll get into this more, 387 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: but I think like the thing that about the thing 388 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: that was important about occupy and the thing that the 389 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: people who in my opinion, like my comrades during occupy 390 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: or people I meet who were like doing Occupy stuff 391 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,479 Speaker 1: but like who I didn't know, but like now we 392 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: I you know, I roll with them. Most of us 393 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 1: have the have the you know, the analysis, like it 394 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: was really important that we were doing politics in the street. 395 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,479 Speaker 1: It was really important that we were back together they 396 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: were talking politics. And then there were really really intense, 397 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,919 Speaker 1: extreme limits to what Occupy could have done. UM. And 398 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: I think Oakland really pushed those UM and and you know, 399 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 1: and got to those but UM and I think the 400 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: folks who are like no, no no, Occupy was good at 401 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: the time, we're like Occupy is terrible. Um, And I 402 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: think that's worth notice, noting and thinking about. So I 403 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 1: think yeah, before were sut go into talk a bit 404 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: about what happened Oakland to talk about some of their stuff, 405 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: so on on day to day basis, like what is 406 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 1: occupy actually doing? Because I think that's also been sort 407 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: of lost in this whole. Like everyone remembers like the slogans, 408 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 1: and every remembers fact that there's a thing, but you know, 409 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: like that there's there's a bunch of working groups and 410 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: they're doing things, So like what what was that like 411 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: like day to day? And then on a sort of 412 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,479 Speaker 1: brought her lifel Yeah so so um So, first of all, 413 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 1: again I was only in New York. I spent some 414 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: time at Occupied Boston as well. Um, but like I 415 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: don't have a sense of what other places were like, 416 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: so I I really can't, I mean other than having 417 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: heard from people. So I want to be very clear 418 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: that I'm like mostly addressing that. Um. I think the 419 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: thing that was going on was that Zaccatti Park, Like 420 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 1: the park was like total chaos. Um. Part of that 421 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: was because there was a drum circle that basically was 422 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: going twenty four hours a day um there, which meant 423 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: that whenever you were down there, and it was like 424 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: a canyon. Zacotti Park is surrounded by skyscrapers, so it 425 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: was just this incredible cacophony all the time, um, which 426 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: I think was cool. It really ruined a lot of 427 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 1: finance bros, like like like orally with an a there 428 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: um but I think like, but it also was pretty 429 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: intense and unpleasant. Sometimes you were like please stop, oh 430 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: my god, like that's at one point in general Assembly 431 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: I think decided that drums were like only acceptable during 432 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: certain hours, like near the end of the movement, like 433 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 1: the drums the drum circle got reproached, when in fact 434 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 1: they were like actually the biggest agents of chaos in Zuccati, 435 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 1: which is another important lesson. But um, yeah, I think so. 436 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: So you know. Also, because I had been in bloomberg Ville, 437 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,479 Speaker 1: because I've been in Barcelona, I didn't invest myself very 438 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: heavily in camp management stuff, so I mostly was doing 439 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 1: um work. One of the things that I think it's 440 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: forgotten about is that there were snake marches, basically three 441 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: or four a day every day after after the first 442 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 1: week when we were really small, when it got big, 443 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: they were just constant, constant marches through the city, just 444 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: like always going off, like you would run and you'd 445 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 1: be on one march, you run into another march, like 446 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: on a Saturday or Sunday, when like people were really 447 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: like out there like it was, it was really like 448 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: there was a lot of mayhem. There would be big 449 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: planned marches that would then be bigger. Um. So there 450 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 1: was like a lot of like, um, what people now 451 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: would call direct action, what I would call largely like 452 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: sort of symbolic practice for direct action. Mostly, UM, I 453 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,719 Speaker 1: don't mind, I like marches. I certainly got my miles 454 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: in then like I don't feel like I need to 455 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: do that again. But um, but you know, so then 456 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,919 Speaker 1: at the camp people were just living there. There were 457 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: a lot of like a lot of punks, a lot 458 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 1: of like you know, a lot of homeless folks obviously, 459 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 1: and some and some encampments had more at a higher 460 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: concentration about house people. Some in New York because of 461 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: all the media spectacle and all the money that came in, 462 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: we had a lot of nonprofit drifters. By the end 463 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: in the encampment. But there's also like a library, um, 464 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: a free library with all these books that like would 465 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: be donated. Um. There's a lot of like you know, 466 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: political agitation. There were people standing around the um the 467 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: you know the corners of the park, you know, with 468 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 1: with signs and you're yelling at people. And it's also 469 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: important to remember that like Zuccati Park in New York 470 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: is tiny. It's tiny. We had originally wanted to do 471 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 1: it on this big plaza, like City Bank plaza, UM, 472 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: and the cops had heard about that and fence it off. 473 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: So on the seventeenth we just like we just, um, 474 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 1: what's the word we we we did a oh my 475 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:13,679 Speaker 1: god football metaphors. This we called an audible thank you. 476 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 1: So we said, Zuccati is this tiny little park. It's 477 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 1: incredibly dense, and it's surrounded by you know, like I said, skyscrapers. 478 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,199 Speaker 1: It's in this really weird part of the city that 479 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: no one would ever spend any time and if they 480 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 1: didn't have to otherwise. UM. So that's sort of So 481 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: there's all this stuff going on, and they're all these 482 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 1: their general assemblies twice a day, um, which as I said, 483 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: in New York, were particularly unhelpful. UM. But I think 484 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: anarchists and a lot of cities we have talked to you, 485 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: like I had a comrade down and d C one 486 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: in Denver. They sort of said that the general assemblies 487 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,719 Speaker 1: either quickly like got shifted or got or became irrelevant. UM. 488 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 1: I think the general ssemblies were not We're not in 489 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 1: the end, We're we're symbolically important but not but not 490 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: really driving force um of my experience. UM. And then 491 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: there would be there would be, like I said, there'd 492 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: be a lot of organizing outside of the park. There'd 493 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: be a lot of like meetings and you know, talks 494 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 1: and um, direct actions and marches, UM. And then there 495 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: would be you know, uh, I guess that's kind of 496 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: the extent of it, right, is that there was like 497 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: a lot of direct action that but there was always 498 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: this park where you could go and like run into 499 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: people and like hook up with people, meet people and 500 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 1: like do a weird thing. And I think that was 501 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: really like the heart of the movement was the fact 502 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: that there was this place you could go meet someone 503 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: and like link into something weird and maybe cool and 504 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 1: maybe not, it doesn't matter, but like there was always 505 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: something to do kind of and it was constant, was 506 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: like this or twenty four hour right like experience. And 507 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: I think that was really what UM what separated it 508 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: from from other from other movement waves that we've had, 509 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: we've had since UM, and was was was probably I 510 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 1: think it's greatest strength in many ways. Yeah, I think 511 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 1: that that was that was the deep person that I got. 512 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: And part of this also was when I when I 513 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: was in college, like every once in a while, you 514 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: just get assigned like some person writing but occupy and 515 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: it was like most of them, which is extremely cranky 516 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: about the whole thing, but you know, one of one 517 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: of the things I think was interesting about it is 518 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: that everyone seemed to e gree at least to some 519 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: extent that part of what was going on was that 520 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 1: it's it's it's this way to do I don't know 521 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: if I had any formation is quite the right word 522 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,479 Speaker 1: for it, but it's it's this way to sort of 523 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: like rebuild social connections and rebuilds like social sort of 524 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: bonds in a way that just had you know, as 525 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 1: public space becomes just the cops and like there's there's 526 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: a table in Chinatown that I like call the Cops Table. 527 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: And I'm really mad about that. Like, like I said, 528 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: this is Chicago, Chinatown. I would like go, there'sar in 529 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 1: from the library and there's a sign sign on the 530 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: table that says, if you loiter at this table, you 531 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: will be arrested. It's like this is a picnic table. 532 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 1: Like the cops. This table is threatening that it is 533 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: going to arrest you if you use it for what's 534 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: using you know, for what you're supposed to use tables for. Yeah, yeah, 535 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: yeah exactly. And I think I think that's right. I 536 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: think like it was, you know, there was a lot 537 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,479 Speaker 1: of UM at the time. A lot of people were 538 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: talking about UM uh embarrassingly about heart and degrees sort 539 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: of like multitude stuff. Really really a much better book 540 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: that was important was also UM David Graber's debt UM. 541 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: But I think, like, you know, and there was like 542 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: a lot of like people saying things about like the 543 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: Agora you know, UM democracy list sort of political the 544 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,120 Speaker 1: political encounter space of encounter UM, and that stuff wasn't 545 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: all wrong. Like I mean, I'm sort of being a 546 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: little sarcastic with a lot of it, but like, but 547 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: I think, like, like there there was a lot of 548 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 1: you know, UM part of how we should I think 549 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: we should understand, um, the over discussed under under you know, 550 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,120 Speaker 1: like over analyzed word neoliberalism like has largely become meaningless. 551 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: One of the things I should I think, I think 552 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 1: it's valuable for understanding is a process by which capitalism 553 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: responded to the Sixties by disorganizing its production process such 554 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: to the long Sixties could never happen again, right, so 555 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: like like the four the the control the like the 556 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 1: concentration of workers within within production in such a way 557 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: that they could be agitated by students and then like 558 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 1: sort of radically unionized wildcat and sort of like almost 559 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: overthrow a government, right, Like the neoliberalism is like you 560 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: know it smashes the unions, yes, but it also it 561 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 1: also like distributes out the active production. Right so that 562 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: so that that's not so easily done. And I think 563 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: one of the real problems of you know that was 564 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 1: facing social movement. Um, you know in the in the period, 565 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: you know, the the long period, like you know, you 566 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: had stuff like in the U s Again that this 567 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: is where you know the best. But like you know, 568 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: you have the l a uprising which is huge, um, 569 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: and you have you know, the globe, the summit hopping 570 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 1: movement and anti globalization, which you know what could attack 571 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: a target, but there wasn't really a sense of like 572 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 1: how it felt hard to do a local struggle, UM 573 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: beyond like really like a revolutionary riot like l A, 574 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,479 Speaker 1: which you know you can't really precipitate. UM. I mean 575 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: you can't really precipitate a movement either, obviously, But I 576 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: think like but like like a uh a political political movement, 577 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: a form of political organizing that didn't require something on 578 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 1: the level of George Floyd, which is what the l 579 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: A rebellion was, right, UM, but that also didn't require like, 580 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: uh an action from capital that you were like striking against, 581 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: right like the the uh you know, the Summits or whatever. Um. 582 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: And that that again and like all of these eras 583 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,199 Speaker 1: are very important. This is not to like you know, 584 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: obviously like this is with with respect for those movements, UM, 585 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 1: but yeah, we felt I think it felt like we 586 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: were in a political wilderness. And I think that that 587 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: like UM occupy really and the movement of the squares globally, 588 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: I think UM really like demonstrated that it was possible 589 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: to practice a kind of street politics even without UM 590 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: you know, a shop floor where you can organize even 591 00:28:55,320 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: without um, you know, a a capital p party to 592 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: organize within UM and I think that was really important. 593 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: I think it also scared a lot of people who 594 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: and and continues to who are committed to those politics 595 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: UM and UM to the twenty century workers movement or 596 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: the nineteen and twenty century labor movement, which they somehow 597 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: fantasized will come back UM if they just wish hard 598 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: enough and writing though books or whatever. UM. And I 599 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: think like, um, so, I think that was powerful. I 600 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: also think like like, yeah, sorry, we can move on 601 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: to legacy later. But yes, I think that was like, 602 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: I think that was very much like an important thing. 603 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: Was was just like and you know, um, I graduated 604 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: college in two thousand nine, um so I was like 605 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: part of that millennial generation that like, you know, had 606 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: gone into incredibly deep debt. Like we'd have a college 607 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: degree and then like the bottom fill out of the 608 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: economy there were no jobs. Um And Like I think 609 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: there were a lot of you know, like people who 610 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: like had anticipated a middle class life UM of some kind. 611 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,719 Speaker 1: Not that I really had at that point, but whatever, Like, 612 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 1: but but a lot of people like in my economic 613 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: cohort like had um suddenly facing you know, proletarianization, right, 614 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: and I think that was one of the strengths of 615 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:06,479 Speaker 1: the movement. I think that was that, you know, like 616 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: I mentioned the statistics in great in Spain and Greece, like, 617 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: I think that was a global aspect of this kind 618 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 1: of movement um uh Arab Spring to like there was 619 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: there was a lot of like that was really a 620 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,959 Speaker 1: response to the economic crisis. Obviously, those folks were already 621 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: more proletarian than the people who are the young people 622 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: and in the squares movements, UM. But they they innovated, 623 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: they created the tactics in in Arab Spring right UM 624 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: Terrer Square, most famously in Cairo, UM and UM. I 625 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: think like those creating a meeting place where um, you 626 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: didn't require a preconstructed like political community UM in order 627 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: to engage was a strength and a weakness UM. And 628 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: I think it it also you know, as a result 629 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: of the dynamics of the general Assembly, the dynamics of 630 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: the sort of voluntearist nature of that what I'm describing, UM, 631 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: it led to a lot of people who were already confident, 632 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: who are already feeling good, being able to like take 633 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: more power, right like um uh. And I think it 634 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: also was a very white movement. Um. Certainly in New York, 635 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: but but I think I think across the country, UM, 636 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: it was largely it was largely you know, it was 637 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: it was majority white in a way that you know, 638 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: by higher percentages than any movement that we've really been 639 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: part of since um was UM. And that was obviously 640 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: a limit um for for reasons that will be obvious 641 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 1: to everyone, including the idea that like a lot of 642 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: people pushed that like the police are part of the right. Um. Okay, 643 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: so let's let's talk about the police, because you know, 644 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: like that's you know, that's that's the one of the 645 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: other extremely important aspects of this is this immense militarization. 646 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: I mean, okay, so I think that the militarization of 647 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: the police as a phrase, I think it's somewhat misleading 648 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: in that like the cops have always like shot people. Yeah, 649 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: but you know, there there's yeah, there there's there's there's 650 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: still like there's an intense sort of ramp up of 651 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: the prison sector. There's you have this sense boom in 652 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: the size of prisons. You have, Yeah, you you have 653 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: increasing parts of the economy that are just the entire 654 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: towns that used to be sort of manufacturing sectors you 655 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: used to be sort of involved in sort industrial production 656 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: that are just like the economy is now just there's 657 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: a prison there. And and I think this is also 658 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: looking back, one of the things that look like occupy 659 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: kind of r ran up into because you know, occupies 660 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: this attempt to like you know, form a democratic space, 661 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: and it relies crucially on this this thing that is 662 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: nominally in the Constitution but doesn't exist, which is the 663 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: like the right to freedom of speech and the right 664 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: to freedom of assembly and freedom assembly like that is 665 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: that is like that is bullshit. It does not exist. 666 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: If you like, if you actually believe that this exists, 667 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: like try getting like seventy people into a space and 668 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: see how like just like I don't know, like into 669 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: a street or just just like into into like have 670 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 1: one of people on a park and just like see 671 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: how fast the cops show up, because you know, it's like, yeah, 672 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: the first time yeah that I was I was at 673 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: any kind of protests, cops immediately wanted to take anything 674 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: I was holding. You're not You're not allowed to the 675 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: first thing, if if if if you have anything in 676 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: your hands, that's that that is a that is a problem. Yeah, 677 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: it's like the First Amendment is just it's super completely 678 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: superseded by traffic laws, like laws about like sidewalk maintenance, 679 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: like no, it's it's all fair, like none of it, 680 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: like you're you're not you're not allowed to. And this 681 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: is this is I think is partially this is kind 682 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: of a talk, but this is part I think why 683 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: there's so much focused on the right about the first 684 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: moment because they want to they want to draw attention 685 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: away from the fact that, like the actual thing that's 686 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: fake about it is that you can't gather people in 687 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 1: meat anywhere, and they want to draw it into these 688 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: like inane like this professor like said the N word 689 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: a bunch of times in class. Isn't it bad that 690 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: people are mad at them? But but if I think 691 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: also go to time, this sort of back to occupy. 692 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: You know. Okay, So, so occupy functions right insofar as 693 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: there is a a physical location where people can go 694 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: and physically interact with each other. And that's a problem 695 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: because at some point the police are just like no, 696 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: and they start clearing the encampments and I think this 697 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 1: is this is the other thing with occupy is that 698 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: outside of like parts of Oakland and that that's a 699 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: whole other thing that. Yeah, but it's it's it's incredibly 700 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: studiously non violent in a way that like nothing I've 701 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:30,839 Speaker 1: ever seen before since is yeah. So so so there's 702 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: a lot there. I'm gonna I want to talk about 703 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 1: it because that's there's a lot um but yeah, so 704 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 1: I think I think the militarization of the police thesis 705 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: um is is incomplete if you don't also talk about 706 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 1: the policification of the military. Right, so, like part of 707 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 1: what happens with with the great expansion of them of 708 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,760 Speaker 1: the carcerel state, part of that is also a response 709 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:54,399 Speaker 1: to the Vietnam War um and and mass resistance within 710 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: you know, the troops they were like in the Vietnam 711 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,280 Speaker 1: the in like the last two years when ground troops 712 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: are there in Vietnam, there's like fourteen hundred fragging incidents 713 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: where where um you know where where privates and recruits 714 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:09,240 Speaker 1: killed their officers. The US Army during the during Vietnam 715 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: was on the brink of the of collapse in the 716 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: way that like like the Russian Army was looking in 717 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: it was like like like the numbers, I think, I 718 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 1: think I'll number At one point there was like forty 719 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:20,839 Speaker 1: of the army by the end of Vietnam was either 720 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 1: on strike or just like not following orders. Yeah, no, 721 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: it was. It was complete. There was the reason that 722 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: that Nixon pursues Vietnam sizzation, which is when they just 723 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 1: start doing air campaigns, bombing and napalm, is because they 724 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,800 Speaker 1: couldn't rely on ground troops anymore. They just they were useless. 725 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: They were all high um, you know, to talk about 726 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of talking about like Heroin, 727 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: but like that was actually kind of a former resistance 728 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: within the lines in a complicated way whatever. Okay, that's 729 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,800 Speaker 1: all very So the military realizes that it can't function 730 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: as a mass military in the model that nation states 731 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: have done since the Napoleonic Wars, right, which is like 732 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: the mass you know, the mass recruitment of the citizens soldier. Um, 733 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: that's sort of how wars fought between you know, eighteen 734 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: ten and nine seventy. And then it becomes clear that 735 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 1: that's not gonna work anymore because because the aims of 736 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 1: the countries and the power of nationalism have become too abstracted. 737 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: Fascism has done too much damage to that image. There's 738 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: just like there's it doesn't really work anymore. So the 739 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: military turns into a sort of what it always was also, 740 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: which is like a colonial policing force, and so the 741 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,720 Speaker 1: police the military drift towards one another in form and function. Okay, 742 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: So in occupy Um, one of the microhistories that I 743 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: think it's forgotten is that, like, I mean because because 744 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,799 Speaker 1: it took a week, and like, who remembers this week 745 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: except for like weirdos like me who were there? Um? 746 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,320 Speaker 1: Is it like there was no one at Zuccati in 747 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: the first first week. And one of the big things 748 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: that happened was these these these you know, young white 749 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: girls got caught in a police net and pepper sprayed, 750 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: and there was this video that went around with them 751 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: getting pepper sprayed and screaming. Is particularly this woman on 752 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: her knees, you know, screaming with with tears and pepper 753 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 1: spray going down her face. And that really outraged people 754 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: because you know, they were you know, it was police 755 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: depression and police violence. So in terms of the question 756 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: of non violence, yes, Um, there was a lot of 757 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: non violence. It was a constant fight that took honestly 758 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: took until the George Floyd Uprising for the right outside 759 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: to win. Frankly, but but but but during Occupy there 760 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 1: was you know, there was a lot of non violence nonsense. 761 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: Um and I think like, but but another thing that 762 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 1: happened though was that like you know, like I said, 763 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 1: people were marching every day. So even in New York, 764 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,800 Speaker 1: where I think the political height was kind of achieved, 765 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,400 Speaker 1: October one when we took the Brooklyn Bridge. Um, I 766 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 1: think I think New York never really like had a 767 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: big moment again, Like it was largely sort of like 768 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: smaller things after that. But um, but like and there 769 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 1: was a mass arrest on the Brooklyn Bridge. We marched 770 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: over the Brooklyn Bridge, the brookn Bridge got shut down. 771 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: They arrested seven hundred of US. Um. It was the 772 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: first big infrastructure shutdown that happened in the US since 773 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 1: the l A Riots. It was it was a big 774 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 1: deal at the time. Now it happened. Can I put 775 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: a note doubt though specifically for the Brooklyn Bridge if 776 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: you're because people I've seen every every single time there's 777 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 1: one of these movements, people try to take the Brooklyn 778 00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 1: Bridge and they all got arrested. It's like, can can 779 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: you all like please, I am begging you. If you're 780 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: going to try to take a bridge, make sure you 781 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: have a way out, like, yeah, you have to hold 782 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: one of the sites. That's the problem. We're going to 783 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: get arrested. Yeah, yeah, exactly, you got a way out 784 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 1: a bridge design, do not have a way out? Exactly? 785 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: Please please don't all get arrested. It's it's in fact 786 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:26,439 Speaker 1: bad and yeah, sorry, exactly. I haven't seen a few 787 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 1: people successom we take bridges a few times, but that's 788 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: because there was like three cop cars and like people, 789 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 1: if you have like a block with two hundred kids, 790 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 1: you're not going to be able to hold the bridge. Yes, 791 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,280 Speaker 1: it could happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 792 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 793 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,319 Speaker 1: cool zone Media dot com, or check us out on 794 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 795 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could 796 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 1: Happen here, updated monthly at cool Zone to dot com 797 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening.