WEBVTT - How Money and Corruption Obstruct Criminal Justice | A Conversation with Vicky Ward

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm Steve Schmidt with the Warning and I am

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<v Speaker 1>delighted today to be joined by one of the pre

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<v Speaker 1>eminent investigative journalists in the English speaking world, Vicky Ward

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<v Speaker 1>of Vicky Ward is a new Netflix documentary out about it,

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<v Speaker 1>and of course I'm talking about the title of her book,

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<v Speaker 1>appropriately focused on the victims the Idaho for the terrible

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<v Speaker 1>murders committed by Brian Kroberger in town of Moscow, Idaho,

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<v Speaker 1>a Bucolic university town in the reddest of Red States,

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<v Speaker 1>and the book is about all of the schisms in

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<v Speaker 1>our society. We'll also talk this afternoon a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>about Jeffrey Epstein, because Vicky Ward has investigated that case.

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<v Speaker 1>And when we talk about class in America, when you

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<v Speaker 1>talk about power in America, when you talk about accountability

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<v Speaker 1>in America, it seems that Jeffrey Epstein's hand keeps reaching

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<v Speaker 1>up from the grave. And so as we get the

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<v Speaker 1>conversation started, Vicky, what is at the core what drew

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<v Speaker 1>you to this case that makes you want to go

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<v Speaker 1>so deep into such a very very dark story.

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<v Speaker 2>This one is the Coburger story, right, Yeah, I do

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<v Speaker 2>hope for well, you're right, Steve It's a big departure

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<v Speaker 2>for me. You know, I normally look at corruption and

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<v Speaker 2>power and money, and this is very different. I was

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<v Speaker 2>wrapping up a podcast series about the Federalist Society, Cool

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<v Speaker 2>Pipeline Power. It's about the ties between Yale Law School,

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<v Speaker 2>which most people think of as very progressive, but it's

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<v Speaker 2>about the ties between Yale Law School and the Supreme

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<v Speaker 2>Court on the conservative side. And it was very, very interesting,

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<v Speaker 2>but it took me a very long time. I'd spent

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<v Speaker 2>two years thinking about originalism and sort of one key

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<v Speaker 2>constitutional legal theory. And I'm the mom of twin sons

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<v Speaker 2>who are now twenty two. In November of twenty twenty two,

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<v Speaker 2>when the murders happened, they were both in college. And

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<v Speaker 2>so there was something about the photograph of the four

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<v Speaker 2>victims in Moscow, Idaho, these beautiful four college kids, that

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<v Speaker 2>really just stayed with me because these kids were so ordinary,

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<v Speaker 2>it could have been any of our kids. And I

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<v Speaker 2>kind of couldn't get that photograph out of my head.

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<v Speaker 2>And as my kids then came home for Thanksgiving and

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<v Speaker 2>later then for Christmas and they still had no clue

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<v Speaker 2>who had done this unspeakable saying, I kept wondering about

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<v Speaker 2>those kids' families. I was also very drawn by the

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<v Speaker 2>pictures of the news of Moscow, this little town in

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<v Speaker 2>Idaho I'd never heard of, but as you said, incredibly bucolic,

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<v Speaker 2>picture perfect small American town, jarringly at odds with the

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<v Speaker 2>tragedy really of what had happened. And then when they

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<v Speaker 2>arrested on the other side of the country in Pennsylvania,

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<v Speaker 2>much closer to where I live in New York, this

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<v Speaker 2>criminology PhD student, you know, something about the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>he was also a college student was interesting to me,

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<v Speaker 2>and I did wonder and the mother of young adult sons,

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<v Speaker 2>what it was that could have driven him, someone who

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<v Speaker 2>had overcome heroin addiction as a teenager and obviously overcome

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<v Speaker 2>considerable sort of personal difficulty, to then get into a

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<v Speaker 2>PhD program at a prestigious university, Washington State University, and

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<v Speaker 2>then go out blow it all up, and go out

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<v Speaker 2>and commit these unspeakable crimes. There was something about that,

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<v Speaker 2>and it all felt It felt in contrast to thinking

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<v Speaker 2>about the Supreme Court. It felt very gritty and very

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<v Speaker 2>real and very tangible, and I was sort of mulling

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<v Speaker 2>all this aloud. I've worked with James Patterson before on

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<v Speaker 2>podcasts Only Enough on Epstein related podcasts, and he phoned

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<v Speaker 2>me up and said, I hear you're interested in writing

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<v Speaker 2>a book about these murders and something about them, he said.

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<v Speaker 2>Spoke to him as well, and we both agreed that

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<v Speaker 2>there's something about it felt reminiscent of In Cold Blood

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<v Speaker 2>by Truman Capoti, which is I think a book that

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<v Speaker 2>had both left a searing impression on both of us,

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<v Speaker 2>and we agreed that if we were going to do this,

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<v Speaker 2>we were going to write a book that would feel personal,

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<v Speaker 2>it would feel emotional. We wanted readers to know the

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<v Speaker 2>four victims Maddie Kayley's Anna An Ethan. We wanted them,

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<v Speaker 2>readers to feel what the day to day of their

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<v Speaker 2>lives were like, what their different personalities were, and we

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<v Speaker 2>wanted readers to feel like they were there in Moscow

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<v Speaker 2>when these murders happened. And we wanted readers to sort

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<v Speaker 2>of feel the awful ripple effect that happens when something

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<v Speaker 2>like this happens on and how the friends and the

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<v Speaker 2>families are affected, yes, but also how the coroner is affected,

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<v Speaker 2>the police chief, the mayor, the local journalist. People sort

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<v Speaker 2>of maybe six degrees away. I mean in this case,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, one of the local business owners almost went

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<v Speaker 2>bust because of the true crime mania that developed in

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<v Speaker 2>the wake of the of the murders. There was all

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<v Speaker 2>this online speculation and we get into that, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>just how harmful this was. We get into the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that there was a political divide in the town at

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<v Speaker 2>the time of the murders. It's this is a liberal

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<v Speaker 2>college town, but there is a conservative church in Moscow

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<v Speaker 2>which has four thousand members. The town has only got

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<v Speaker 2>a population of twenty four thousand. The church is very rich,

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<v Speaker 2>up a lot of main street. It's leader who is

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<v Speaker 2>you know, talks a lot for the book. A stated

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<v Speaker 2>mission is to evangelize this town. And at the time

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<v Speaker 2>of the murders, lawsuits were flying between the church and

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<v Speaker 2>the police and civic leaders because various arrests have been

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<v Speaker 2>made of church members during COVID because they'd refused to

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<v Speaker 2>wear masks and other reasons. So it was very helpful

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<v Speaker 2>for the church politically when the police appeared in the

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<v Speaker 2>eyes of the American media to look like the Keystone

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<v Speaker 2>Cops for six weeks, when the police initially said nothing

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<v Speaker 2>after these murders had happened, and then there was a

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<v Speaker 2>drum beat of criticism online and elsewhere, like why are

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<v Speaker 2>they saying nothing? There could be a murderer roaming around

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<v Speaker 2>and this you know, this played into the hands of

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<v Speaker 2>the church who thought it could be very, very helpful

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<v Speaker 2>for us if the police screw up. So that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>there is all of this in the book. It's not

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<v Speaker 2>just about a terrible crime that happens in the middle

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<v Speaker 2>of the night, but it is about that too.

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<v Speaker 1>When when you think about what happened there in this

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<v Speaker 1>college town, and you think about those those four kids,

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<v Speaker 1>and you go, you go into a story like this,

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<v Speaker 1>how do you reconcile yourself to facing the evil that

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<v Speaker 1>manifests and stares back at you? How do you how

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<v Speaker 1>do you process the the event and the human being

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<v Speaker 1>who committed the act and the motivation which remains I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know what word would you use, nebulous at at

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<v Speaker 1>at at at best? How how do you how do

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<v Speaker 1>you think about that that presence of of evil And

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<v Speaker 1>as you cover this, you are bringing it close to

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<v Speaker 1>you in a in a lot of different ways. Talk

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<v Speaker 1>talk about that.

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<v Speaker 2>As a really, really great question. So it's a balancing

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<v Speaker 2>act for me in that the sort of forensic detective

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<v Speaker 2>inside of mind, My brain and personality wants to find

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<v Speaker 2>the answers I want to piece the jigsaw puzzle together.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think that, you know, one of the

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<v Speaker 2>things that drives me to write the pieces I write,

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<v Speaker 2>write the books I write, is I'm looking to make

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<v Speaker 2>sense of things, and often you can't. And so it's

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<v Speaker 2>about I have to balance my curiosity and wanting to

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<v Speaker 2>understand and hoping that by going out and getting as

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<v Speaker 2>much understanding as I can about Brian Coburger, that there

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<v Speaker 2>will be something in that that is revelatory and helpful

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<v Speaker 2>and tells us something about the broader cultural moment that

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<v Speaker 2>we are in. And I do think that his story,

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<v Speaker 2>just the bits we do know, are helpful in that regard.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I knew nothing about the quote unquote in

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<v Speaker 2>cell movement, the involuntary celibate movement that a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>antisocial young men stuck on their phones who've been rejected

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<v Speaker 2>by women increasingly are very familiar with. You know, my

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<v Speaker 2>sons know all about the insult movement. I didn't, So

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<v Speaker 2>I think, you know, it was helpful for me at least,

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<v Speaker 2>and I suspect for many other people, maybe of my age,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, who don't know anything about it, to understand

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<v Speaker 2>at least what the forces are on the internet that

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<v Speaker 2>our kids are being exposed to.

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<v Speaker 1>So what what is in? What is in in cell?

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<v Speaker 2>So an insull is the colloquial term for an involuntary celibate,

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<v Speaker 2>and they're in the last ten years or more, accelerated

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<v Speaker 2>by COVID. There are a large number of disaffected men,

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<v Speaker 2>young men whose physical interactions with women is possibly negligible,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, again partly to do with COVID, but

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<v Speaker 2>also partly to do with, you know, the way human

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<v Speaker 2>behavior has changed given our alliance on technology and social media.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, people don't physically go out in the way

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<v Speaker 2>they maybe did thirty years ago, because you meet people

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<v Speaker 2>on your phone when you get rejected, having not actually

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<v Speaker 2>moved from your desk. And there is a large growing

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<v Speaker 2>movement among young men who've never experienced, never had sex

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<v Speaker 2>with a woman. That's what you never even touch to women.

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<v Speaker 2>They tend to congregate on the sort of dark corners

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<v Speaker 2>of the Internet.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to, I don't want to interrupt you,

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<v Speaker 1>but I want to I want to understand. I want

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<v Speaker 1>to understand this a little more deeply and I and

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<v Speaker 1>I just want to back up two steps to something

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<v Speaker 1>you said, which is, I immediately go in my head to

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<v Speaker 1>the physical world of some young guy walking up to

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<v Speaker 1>a woman young woman and being rejected. But that's not

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<v Speaker 1>what this is. What you said is, this is somebody

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<v Speaker 1>who is sitting isolated to begin with, trying to make

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<v Speaker 1>a digital connection through the means by which young people meet,

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<v Speaker 1>which is online, and they are perpetually rejected through whatever

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<v Speaker 1>that digital persona is, whatever their images, whatever their words is.

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<v Speaker 1>However they present themselves to the world, and that connection,

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<v Speaker 1>that ability to step outside of that isolation is denied

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<v Speaker 1>them for for whatever reason. Do I do? I did

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<v Speaker 1>I describe that accurately?

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<v Speaker 2>You did? And then what happens is two people, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>to a lot of these isolated, typically anti social young men,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean that that when they do then I mean

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<v Speaker 2>Brian Cobo did try to then go to a bar

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<v Speaker 2>once or twice and it didn't go well. So he

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<v Speaker 2>retreats back into his own world of the internet and him. So,

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<v Speaker 2>but you're right that most of the rejection is experienced virtually,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I. So when I sort of traced his childhood,

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<v Speaker 2>teenage years young adulthood. That was, you know, you asked me.

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<v Speaker 2>That was interesting, interesting for me to learn. I was

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<v Speaker 2>interested to learn that he had been exposed to this

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<v Speaker 2>video when he was an undergraduate, when he was doing

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<v Speaker 2>his master's degree actually in psychology at the Sales University

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<v Speaker 2>in Pennsylvania. I was interested to learn that he'd watched

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<v Speaker 2>these videos made by this guy, Elliott Roger, who in

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<v Speaker 2>twenty fourteen was a college student on the West Coast

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<v Speaker 2>out in Santa Barbara and who had also been rejected

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, never had sex with women. It was

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<v Speaker 2>a sort of social outcast. And Elliott Roger had written

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<v Speaker 2>a memoir of his sad life and he'd made these videos.

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<v Speaker 2>He was a privileged kid sitting in his BMW with

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<v Speaker 2>the son setting behind him at the Santa Barbara Hills,

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<v Speaker 2>saying that he was now going to go out and

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<v Speaker 2>take his revenge on the sorority women who've rejected him.

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<v Speaker 2>And he sent this video to his therapist, who sent

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<v Speaker 2>it to his mother minutes before he went out and

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<v Speaker 2>killed a large number of people, injured others, and finally

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<v Speaker 2>killed himself. This was something that Brian Coburger knew all

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<v Speaker 2>about and that you know that his fellow classmates talked

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<v Speaker 2>to me about and he was also so much I found.

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<v Speaker 1>That's two thousand, fourteen, fifteen, fourteen.

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<v Speaker 2>Fourteen, and I only bring it up because Steve, You're right,

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<v Speaker 2>we don't know. The police looked very hard for Coburger's motive.

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<v Speaker 2>He had wiped his digital footprint clean, so they they

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<v Speaker 2>were left guessing. But James Fry, the police chief, did

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<v Speaker 2>say to me that, you know, recently after the book

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<v Speaker 2>came out and when the gag order around this case

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<v Speaker 2>was lifted, that he was frustrated by the lack of

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<v Speaker 2>transparency from Washington State University, which is where Brian Coburger

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<v Speaker 2>goes for his PhD. And had this case gone to trial,

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<v Speaker 2>the victims' families had always told me they really wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to know what the red flags were in Coburger's behavior

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<v Speaker 2>on the campus of Washington State University, because that has

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<v Speaker 2>remained a black box. And in the book, I think

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<v Speaker 2>we do lift a veil on some of that, and

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<v Speaker 2>you do see that by the time he gets there,

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<v Speaker 2>he is a full blown misogynist and that is why,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's is heinous views of women and it's treatment

0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:07.399
<v Speaker 2>of women that lead him to blow up. He's the

0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:13.200
<v Speaker 2>funding of his PhD. You know, he's got a teaching position,

0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:17.359
<v Speaker 2>which is how he's able to pay for his PhD.

0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:21.000
<v Speaker 2>And by the time the murders happened, he has been

0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:24.600
<v Speaker 2>called in before the administration at Washington State University so

0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:29.080
<v Speaker 2>often that you know, it's clear he's about to be fired.

0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:33.000
<v Speaker 2>And this is all because of the way he speaks

0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:37.480
<v Speaker 2>to women and interrupts them, he grades them poorly, but

0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:41.399
<v Speaker 2>he also follows one of them out to her car,

0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:46.639
<v Speaker 2>creeping her out, and he's you know, there's this scene

0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:52.160
<v Speaker 2>in the book where a guy who's in his class

0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:56.280
<v Speaker 2>they call it a cohort, makes the mistake of getting

0:18:56.520 --> 0:19:02.680
<v Speaker 2>a lift from Coburger where and Coburg events to him

0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:07.080
<v Speaker 2>in the car about women and says, you know, I

0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:10.640
<v Speaker 2>could have any woman I want if I walked into

0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:13.320
<v Speaker 2>a bar or any social gathering, I could you know,

0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:15.720
<v Speaker 2>I could pick up any woman. Do what I want

0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:18.640
<v Speaker 2>with that, And he then goes on to say that

0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:22.760
<v Speaker 2>he believes, you know, he has a nineteen seventies sort

0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:26.320
<v Speaker 2>of view of what women's role should be in the world,

0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:29.199
<v Speaker 2>that women belong in the bedroom and the kitchen. They

0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:36.560
<v Speaker 2>have no business in his mind doing college degrees. And so,

0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:40.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, this classmate of fits listens to all of

0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:47.240
<v Speaker 2>this with increasing kind of horror. And by the week

0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:51.320
<v Speaker 2>before the murders, this same classmate, guy called Ben Roberts

0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:59.359
<v Speaker 2>is it's so troubled by Coburger's appearance, so clear to

0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:04.000
<v Speaker 2>him that the guy is there's something terribly wrong. Then

0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:07.320
<v Speaker 2>he starts to type out what they call a care

0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:11.000
<v Speaker 2>form that is supposed to go to the administration anonymously,

0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:16.560
<v Speaker 2>and you know, tragically, you know, he looks up at

0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:19.439
<v Speaker 2>Coburger again and he thinks, you know, there's something so

0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:24.800
<v Speaker 2>off about this guy. If he ever finds out it's

0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:29.760
<v Speaker 2>me who's sending in this form, there could be trouble.

0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:32.280
<v Speaker 2>That's something I don't need. So he deletes it and

0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:38.320
<v Speaker 2>doesn't send it, which, obviously, given what Coburger then went

0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:41.879
<v Speaker 2>out and did in Moscow, is very troubling. But I

0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:46.560
<v Speaker 2>bring up the Elliott Roger comparison. We don't know that

0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:51.159
<v Speaker 2>they are connected, but there are parallels that are at

0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:58.199
<v Speaker 2>least interesting. Elliot Roger in twenty fourteen went back and

0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:05.440
<v Speaker 2>forth between two college House and Isla Vista. We're going

0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:13.320
<v Speaker 2>and Elliott Roger in his book, and Brian Coburger lived

0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:17.320
<v Speaker 2>in Pullman in Washington State where Washington State University is,

0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:21.720
<v Speaker 2>which is a ten minute drive from Moscow, Idaho, so

0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:27.480
<v Speaker 2>there's that similarity. There is also the fact that Elliott

0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:32.560
<v Speaker 2>Roger wrote in his book that a woman he was

0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:37.199
<v Speaker 2>specifically had in mind, she wasn't in the end. One

0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:41.000
<v Speaker 2>of his victims was a childhood friend called Maddie, and

0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:47.199
<v Speaker 2>the one of the victims one of Coburger's victims was

0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:51.399
<v Speaker 2>Madison Maddie Mogan, whose nickname was Maddie, and most of

0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:54.919
<v Speaker 2>the families of all four victims and the friends believe

0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:59.199
<v Speaker 2>that Maddie Mogan was actually Coburger's intended target, not the

0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:03.960
<v Speaker 2>other three, because that it was her bedroom that he

0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:07.120
<v Speaker 2>went to on the night of the murders. He would

0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:09.520
<v Speaker 2>have had no way of knowing that he would find

0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:13.440
<v Speaker 2>her best friend there with her, because she had already

0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:17.439
<v Speaker 2>left the house days before, and she was only happened

0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:22.480
<v Speaker 2>to be there by complete chants. And it was Maddie

0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:25.760
<v Speaker 2>Mogan's bedroom you could see from the road if you

0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:29.920
<v Speaker 2>parked your car at the back of the house, which

0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:33.000
<v Speaker 2>is what the police believe that he did twelve times

0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:37.320
<v Speaker 2>between August and the night of the murders, and you

0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:39.879
<v Speaker 2>would have been you could see Maddie Mgen through the

0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:43.520
<v Speaker 2>window putting on her makeup or curling her hair, and

0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:45.359
<v Speaker 2>anyone would have known it was her room because her

0:22:45.400 --> 0:22:51.080
<v Speaker 2>name Maddie was spelled out in the window. So those

0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:57.320
<v Speaker 2>are the parallels. But you're right when you know your

0:22:57.359 --> 0:23:03.760
<v Speaker 2>original question, what's it like confronting this darkness?

0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:05.159
<v Speaker 1>You know?

0:23:05.200 --> 0:23:11.960
<v Speaker 2>And there are definitely moments where you know, I have

0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:21.800
<v Speaker 2>had sleepless nights thinking about the thinking about the evil.

0:23:21.960 --> 0:23:24.720
<v Speaker 2>And you know, also I'm a mom, and you know

0:23:24.800 --> 0:23:27.360
<v Speaker 2>that sometimes just because I'm interested in something, I don't

0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:29.880
<v Speaker 2>Also I'm always conscious I don't want to bring trouble

0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:35.520
<v Speaker 2>on anyone else in my family. I mean, that's something

0:23:37.440 --> 0:23:42.399
<v Speaker 2>to think about. But I also think that as often

0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:47.400
<v Speaker 2>happens when you when you start digging in a story

0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:51.080
<v Speaker 2>about really bad people. I mean, I think Brian Coburger

0:23:51.200 --> 0:23:55.520
<v Speaker 2>is is unmitigated evil in a way I'm not sure

0:23:55.560 --> 0:24:01.959
<v Speaker 2>I've ever seen before. Actually, but what But but the

0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:06.840
<v Speaker 2>flip side of that is that I think the you

0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:09.320
<v Speaker 2>know what, the book, So the book shows the very

0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:12.440
<v Speaker 2>worst of humanity. I also think it shows the best

0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:19.160
<v Speaker 2>of humanity. And I did find that the people of Moscow,

0:24:22.840 --> 0:24:25.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, were extraordinarily welcoming.

0:24:27.480 --> 0:24:27.760
<v Speaker 1>To me.

0:24:28.320 --> 0:24:32.800
<v Speaker 2>The victims' families really took me in, you know. I

0:24:33.119 --> 0:24:36.159
<v Speaker 2>went and stayed with the family of Eathan Japin at

0:24:36.200 --> 0:24:43.000
<v Speaker 2>their home in pre Slate. The victims friends, particularly the

0:24:43.040 --> 0:24:48.040
<v Speaker 2>young couple who found the bodies that awful morning, you know,

0:24:48.160 --> 0:24:51.000
<v Speaker 2>sort of became like surrogate children to me. I mean,

0:24:51.040 --> 0:24:54.520
<v Speaker 2>what they you know, they couldn't unsee what they'd seen,

0:24:54.800 --> 0:24:58.160
<v Speaker 2>and their bravery and resilience touched me. And I think

0:24:58.200 --> 0:25:02.399
<v Speaker 2>those are the reasons in the air. And you keep going,

0:25:02.640 --> 0:25:08.199
<v Speaker 2>and it's as important to show that as it is

0:25:08.240 --> 0:25:11.520
<v Speaker 2>to show evil. Does that make sense?

0:25:12.760 --> 0:25:20.199
<v Speaker 1>It does. Is there any connection that you're aware of

0:25:20.480 --> 0:25:27.040
<v Speaker 1>between Roger in Santa Barbara in the Columbine shootings? There

0:25:27.200 --> 0:25:33.480
<v Speaker 1>is an enormous body of work that links that original

0:25:34.400 --> 0:25:40.119
<v Speaker 1>school shooting, not original, but the preeminent school shooting of

0:25:40.640 --> 0:25:46.399
<v Speaker 1>the era, let's say, to dozens and dozens of mass

0:25:46.520 --> 0:25:52.560
<v Speaker 1>killings where those Columbine shooters have been fetishized by a

0:25:52.640 --> 0:25:56.720
<v Speaker 1>later mass killing. And I wondered if you had any awareness,

0:25:56.800 --> 0:26:01.680
<v Speaker 1>if there was any connection between you're in the combine

0:26:01.840 --> 0:26:08.560
<v Speaker 1>killers and any type of adoration, any of followership on

0:26:09.160 --> 0:26:10.560
<v Speaker 1>that connection.

0:26:10.960 --> 0:26:13.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, we do know that there are people. In fact,

0:26:13.880 --> 0:26:17.280
<v Speaker 2>you said to me you're in Toronto. There was a

0:26:17.359 --> 0:26:23.160
<v Speaker 2>Toronto killing in twenty nineteen that was explicitly a copycat

0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:30.760
<v Speaker 2>of Elliott Roger, quite explicitly Columbine. I don't know if

0:26:30.760 --> 0:26:38.040
<v Speaker 2>it's explicit, but you know, this is it's a question

0:26:38.760 --> 0:26:41.639
<v Speaker 2>that is definitely in the minds certainly. I know of

0:26:41.640 --> 0:26:49.680
<v Speaker 2>the Gonzalves family, the family of Kayleie Gonzalves, and it's something,

0:26:49.680 --> 0:26:51.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's something that I would like to do

0:26:51.200 --> 0:26:54.240
<v Speaker 2>more research into. I'm actually going to have dinner next

0:26:54.280 --> 0:27:01.440
<v Speaker 2>week with Catherine Ramsland, the criminologist, who is the who

0:27:01.520 --> 0:27:07.560
<v Speaker 2>is the professor who showed the Elliott Roger video to Coburger.

0:27:07.600 --> 0:27:11.359
<v Speaker 2>She's got to be very careful about what she can

0:27:11.400 --> 0:27:14.920
<v Speaker 2>say to me about Coburger because of fur per restrictions,

0:27:15.400 --> 0:27:18.719
<v Speaker 2>but she can talk to me more generally about Elliott

0:27:18.800 --> 0:27:23.560
<v Speaker 2>Roger and about all the other murderers that she taught

0:27:24.000 --> 0:27:27.679
<v Speaker 2>her class about. So that's something that I, you know,

0:27:27.760 --> 0:27:30.080
<v Speaker 2>want to look into more.

0:27:31.000 --> 0:27:35.119
<v Speaker 1>If you shot down with Coburger, what would you ask him.

0:27:35.400 --> 0:27:38.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the obvious question is why. But I wonder,

0:27:38.920 --> 0:27:44.240
<v Speaker 2>if you know, is this actually want wanted? What he wanted.

0:27:44.280 --> 0:27:48.199
<v Speaker 2>I have to feel that it was performative. But what

0:27:48.320 --> 0:27:53.320
<v Speaker 2>he did. I mean, having having now gone to the

0:27:53.320 --> 0:27:57.680
<v Speaker 2>Poconos scene where he grew up, got to know the

0:27:57.680 --> 0:28:02.480
<v Speaker 2>mother of his only friend, who sadly died of a

0:28:02.560 --> 0:28:06.480
<v Speaker 2>drug overdose in twenty twenty one, there is no doubt

0:28:06.680 --> 0:28:14.160
<v Speaker 2>that he has catapulted himself from a lonely life of

0:28:15.600 --> 0:28:22.800
<v Speaker 2>hardship and obscurity to now he's a household name. And

0:28:23.680 --> 0:28:26.960
<v Speaker 2>what I do know about his teenage is suggests to

0:28:26.960 --> 0:28:31.239
<v Speaker 2>me he's a deeply manipulative, clever individual. I mean, I

0:28:31.280 --> 0:28:33.960
<v Speaker 2>say that, you know, there's in the book, there's this

0:28:34.040 --> 0:28:38.320
<v Speaker 2>scene where he phones up his best friend's mother when

0:28:38.320 --> 0:28:41.920
<v Speaker 2>his best friend has been arrested. They both become heroin addicts.

0:28:41.960 --> 0:28:44.600
<v Speaker 2>His best friend, Jeremy has been arrested for the first

0:28:44.640 --> 0:28:48.040
<v Speaker 2>time for drugs possession and is in jail, and Coburger

0:28:48.040 --> 0:28:51.520
<v Speaker 2>phones out the mother and says, I'm so sorry. You know,

0:28:51.560 --> 0:28:53.160
<v Speaker 2>when are you going to see him? I'd like to

0:28:53.200 --> 0:28:55.560
<v Speaker 2>come to So she tells him what we're going tomorrow

0:28:55.720 --> 0:29:00.640
<v Speaker 2>At eleven whatever time, and she and her husband arrived

0:29:00.640 --> 0:29:02.560
<v Speaker 2>at the jail. There's no sign of Coburger. But when

0:29:02.560 --> 0:29:05.680
<v Speaker 2>they get back to her house, they can see they've

0:29:05.720 --> 0:29:10.920
<v Speaker 2>been burgled, they've been robbed, and she knows immediately who

0:29:10.960 --> 0:29:15.320
<v Speaker 2>it is. So Coburger used and years later, when he's

0:29:15.360 --> 0:29:19.800
<v Speaker 2>in rehab he can't. He appears in her kitchen to apologize,

0:29:19.800 --> 0:29:23.160
<v Speaker 2>which he understands is one of the steps. You know,

0:29:23.200 --> 0:29:25.560
<v Speaker 2>a tonament, they ask you to take it in rehab.

0:29:26.080 --> 0:29:32.280
<v Speaker 2>But I mean, that's a he was a very you know,

0:29:32.360 --> 0:29:36.880
<v Speaker 2>he's thought this through, I mean, and and and were

0:29:36.920 --> 0:29:40.160
<v Speaker 2>it not for the knife sheath, one mistake, he might

0:29:40.200 --> 0:29:43.600
<v Speaker 2>well have got away with this. Actually, so there is

0:29:43.640 --> 0:29:45.960
<v Speaker 2>a perform you know. So I think I want to

0:29:46.000 --> 0:29:50.520
<v Speaker 2>know if this was all, this was this, this was

0:29:50.560 --> 0:29:54.280
<v Speaker 2>what he wanted, I mean, and I and the fear,

0:29:54.640 --> 0:29:59.240
<v Speaker 2>the fear, the fear that the Gonzalvez family has and

0:29:59.320 --> 0:30:06.160
<v Speaker 2>the reason they didn't want a plea deal and I've

0:30:06.200 --> 0:30:08.840
<v Speaker 2>been vocally upset about that and would have preferred to

0:30:08.840 --> 0:30:13.880
<v Speaker 2>see this go to trial, is that their fear is Yes,

0:30:13.920 --> 0:30:17.479
<v Speaker 2>he's now looked up in jail without parole for the

0:30:17.480 --> 0:30:22.920
<v Speaker 2>rest of his life. But he still has the possibility

0:30:23.400 --> 0:30:28.280
<v Speaker 2>of telling his story, which gives him the power of

0:30:28.360 --> 0:30:36.160
<v Speaker 2>controlling the narrative. And you know, they've got instinct and

0:30:36.200 --> 0:30:39.040
<v Speaker 2>I suspect they're right, is that that's what he wanted

0:30:39.080 --> 0:30:42.200
<v Speaker 2>all along. I mean, this has given him a platform

0:30:42.400 --> 0:30:48.840
<v Speaker 2>and a spotlight that he never had, and so I think,

0:30:50.400 --> 0:30:54.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, I feel very sorry for the Gunzalbas family.

0:30:54.760 --> 0:30:57.760
<v Speaker 2>I do understand their concerns. I mean, there would have

0:30:57.760 --> 0:31:01.120
<v Speaker 2>been issues had the thing gone trial. There's always a

0:31:01.200 --> 0:31:06.720
<v Speaker 2>risk that their trials don't necessarily go the way people expect,

0:31:09.120 --> 0:31:11.040
<v Speaker 2>and they would have been years and years of appeals

0:31:11.160 --> 0:31:13.920
<v Speaker 2>or you know, had he been convicted. I mean, but

0:31:14.120 --> 0:31:21.880
<v Speaker 2>I do understand that their worry is that now, in

0:31:21.920 --> 0:31:28.160
<v Speaker 2>the current situation, he has the ability to regain control

0:31:28.240 --> 0:31:30.360
<v Speaker 2>of the story of what happened to their daughter. And

0:31:30.400 --> 0:31:31.640
<v Speaker 2>that's a horrifying thought to.

0:31:31.600 --> 0:31:36.320
<v Speaker 1>Them, No doubt, this has been such a difficult story

0:31:36.360 --> 0:31:39.160
<v Speaker 1>in part of you for reference, having kids, I have

0:31:39.200 --> 0:31:43.000
<v Speaker 1>a twenty two year old college aged Maddie. So this

0:31:43.080 --> 0:31:47.200
<v Speaker 1>is this is a story that I have the deepest

0:31:47.200 --> 0:31:51.640
<v Speaker 1>aversion to from the you know, for the for the

0:31:51.720 --> 0:31:55.360
<v Speaker 1>obvious reason, it's a horror that you don't want to

0:31:55.400 --> 0:32:00.440
<v Speaker 1>think about contemplate, you know, go there at at any

0:32:00.520 --> 0:32:05.600
<v Speaker 1>conceivable level. But this is a real life nightmare and

0:32:05.680 --> 0:32:11.080
<v Speaker 1>you have had the courage to look into it, to

0:32:11.200 --> 0:32:14.640
<v Speaker 1>cover it, to seek out the truth around it, and

0:32:14.760 --> 0:32:18.440
<v Speaker 1>to report on it with James Patterson and the book

0:32:18.560 --> 0:32:24.160
<v Speaker 1>is called The Idaho Four where with Vicky Ward investigates.

0:32:24.440 --> 0:32:27.920
<v Speaker 1>And I wanted to ask you if you had a

0:32:28.120 --> 0:32:35.920
<v Speaker 1>sense of the journey down the rabbit hole, through the

0:32:36.000 --> 0:32:42.520
<v Speaker 1>looking glass, the portal, stepping through the hatch, across the room,

0:32:42.840 --> 0:32:46.120
<v Speaker 1>through the doorway, however you want to think about it,

0:32:47.800 --> 0:33:02.560
<v Speaker 1>of a lonely boy finds that first thread and is

0:33:03.560 --> 0:33:09.440
<v Speaker 1>welcomed into in cell culture? Is that a Is that

0:33:09.520 --> 0:33:13.880
<v Speaker 1>a way to think about it? Is it a community

0:33:14.320 --> 0:33:22.400
<v Speaker 1>of in cells? And how yes? How how do if

0:33:22.400 --> 0:33:26.080
<v Speaker 1>you're in the in cell community in the way that

0:33:26.160 --> 0:33:29.600
<v Speaker 1>I like going fishing and when I when I feel

0:33:29.600 --> 0:33:34.280
<v Speaker 1>that bite on the line right and I and I

0:33:34.320 --> 0:33:40.080
<v Speaker 1>pull up the fishing pole right? What how does how

0:33:40.120 --> 0:33:44.960
<v Speaker 1>does how does somebody from the in cell community know

0:33:45.160 --> 0:33:48.160
<v Speaker 1>when they have a bite on the line in there

0:33:49.040 --> 0:33:50.880
<v Speaker 1>and they're and they're pulling it up?

0:33:53.480 --> 0:33:56.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think typically when you know their feet when

0:33:56.600 --> 0:34:04.120
<v Speaker 2>somebody is lonely and they go online and they find

0:34:04.200 --> 0:34:08.400
<v Speaker 2>that other people are lonely too, and its spirals and

0:34:08.440 --> 0:34:12.040
<v Speaker 2>that loneliness very quickly. And again you're talking with young

0:34:15.040 --> 0:34:18.640
<v Speaker 2>minds that they haven't haven't necessarily yet got fully formed

0:34:18.640 --> 0:34:23.160
<v Speaker 2>perspective on the world, and that can very quickly. That

0:34:23.160 --> 0:34:27.440
<v Speaker 2>that sense of finding a community. It's easy to then

0:34:27.520 --> 0:34:31.200
<v Speaker 2>get revved up where it's so great to find a

0:34:31.239 --> 0:34:33.919
<v Speaker 2>friend that you go along with a friend who says, yeah,

0:34:34.080 --> 0:34:37.800
<v Speaker 2>and by the way, don't women suck? And it's almost

0:34:37.800 --> 0:34:40.040
<v Speaker 2>like you're in before you even know that you're in.

0:34:40.239 --> 0:34:46.960
<v Speaker 2>Does that make sense? And you know this is I mean,

0:34:46.960 --> 0:34:48.720
<v Speaker 2>I will say that, you know, I've been very glad

0:34:48.719 --> 0:34:54.960
<v Speaker 2>to talk to both my sons in an open way.

0:34:55.040 --> 0:34:56.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean, some of the hardest stuff was, you know,

0:34:56.920 --> 0:34:59.720
<v Speaker 2>along the way writing the book. One of them in particular,

0:34:59.760 --> 0:35:02.480
<v Speaker 2>would send me you know, hey, Mum, saw this online.

0:35:02.520 --> 0:35:04.840
<v Speaker 2>You might want to take a look at it. And

0:35:05.120 --> 0:35:07.440
<v Speaker 2>some of the material I couldn't watch for more than

0:35:07.440 --> 0:35:10.799
<v Speaker 2>thirty second that were deeply upsetting. But I'm glad that

0:35:10.840 --> 0:35:15.640
<v Speaker 2>at least, you know, both my sons have had girlfriends.

0:35:15.680 --> 0:35:19.239
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's it's a false equivalence. But I'm very

0:35:19.280 --> 0:35:21.279
<v Speaker 2>glad I've been able to have that conversation, and I

0:35:21.440 --> 0:35:27.200
<v Speaker 2>will you know, it's opened my eyes I think to

0:35:27.520 --> 0:35:34.920
<v Speaker 2>just how lonely a lot of kids are these days,

0:35:35.040 --> 0:35:38.239
<v Speaker 2>and how as parents and as teachers in a way,

0:35:38.280 --> 0:35:40.799
<v Speaker 2>we need to be as vigilant about that as we

0:35:40.840 --> 0:35:43.440
<v Speaker 2>are about someone not doing well in school.

0:35:45.400 --> 0:35:56.440
<v Speaker 1>Does the rage why latent within this young man? Is

0:35:56.480 --> 0:36:03.280
<v Speaker 1>it there as a foundation of character and gets turned

0:36:03.520 --> 0:36:10.560
<v Speaker 1>on somehow? Is it something that comes from without and

0:36:10.840 --> 0:36:19.200
<v Speaker 1>finds its way inside of him? Where does that rage

0:36:19.520 --> 0:36:23.759
<v Speaker 1>come from? Do you have any sense of that? Including

0:36:24.960 --> 0:36:30.560
<v Speaker 1>just the simplest explanation is that he's evil, which is

0:36:30.600 --> 0:36:34.000
<v Speaker 1>which is something that and I don't mean that in

0:36:34.040 --> 0:36:37.680
<v Speaker 1>any type of religious way. I mean it in a

0:36:37.760 --> 0:36:42.480
<v Speaker 1>definitional way that we don't really talk about it in

0:36:42.520 --> 0:36:46.319
<v Speaker 1>a society very much, but that he's just evil. He's

0:36:46.360 --> 0:36:52.520
<v Speaker 1>a killer, and he, like some type of predator, found

0:36:52.600 --> 0:36:56.200
<v Speaker 1>his way on that day. Or is it more complex

0:36:56.280 --> 0:36:59.600
<v Speaker 1>than that? You have any sense of that because he is,

0:37:00.160 --> 0:37:04.080
<v Speaker 1>like you said, retained the control and the power of

0:37:04.120 --> 0:37:05.200
<v Speaker 1>his own story.

0:37:07.120 --> 0:37:08.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So I want to be very clear. You know,

0:37:08.880 --> 0:37:10.520
<v Speaker 2>when I talked to you earlier, on I mean, I

0:37:10.560 --> 0:37:13.279
<v Speaker 2>was talking in general about lonely guys. I mean, I

0:37:13.320 --> 0:37:18.080
<v Speaker 2>think Coburger, you know, Coburger may have been lonely. But

0:37:18.080 --> 0:37:27.400
<v Speaker 2>but but everyone, you know, everyone who was in court

0:37:27.719 --> 0:37:32.000
<v Speaker 2>for his sentencing that I've spoken to, including the police

0:37:32.080 --> 0:37:41.000
<v Speaker 2>chief and Fat Gonzalvi's family, have said that they've never

0:37:42.400 --> 0:37:52.439
<v Speaker 2>seen someone as untouched by what was an incredibly raw

0:37:52.800 --> 0:37:58.440
<v Speaker 2>and broad display of you know, raw emotion. And for

0:37:58.600 --> 0:38:08.160
<v Speaker 2>him to sit there seemingly utterly dispassionate and removed from

0:38:08.200 --> 0:38:13.240
<v Speaker 2>the entire thing was I mean, the police chief used

0:38:13.520 --> 0:38:22.799
<v Speaker 2>the word evil to me, that no empathy, no connective

0:38:22.880 --> 0:38:27.279
<v Speaker 2>tissue to the rest of the human race at all,

0:38:28.200 --> 0:38:34.399
<v Speaker 2>and you know the roots of that. You know, maybe

0:38:34.840 --> 0:38:40.319
<v Speaker 2>loneliness is undoubtedly one factor, but that goes beyond I

0:38:40.360 --> 0:38:45.000
<v Speaker 2>think that goes beyond emotions that most of us can understand.

0:38:45.120 --> 0:38:48.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, he's in a place that I don't think

0:38:50.280 --> 0:38:52.400
<v Speaker 2>you or I al most people can even get to

0:38:54.760 --> 0:38:56.000
<v Speaker 2>and wouldn't want to.

0:38:57.080 --> 0:39:03.960
<v Speaker 1>Again, the book is the Idaho for about the murders

0:39:04.440 --> 0:39:11.480
<v Speaker 1>that took place committed against these four young people by

0:39:11.520 --> 0:39:16.239
<v Speaker 1>this animal. Had that been the first time you were

0:39:16.320 --> 0:39:19.040
<v Speaker 1>to that part of the United States, when you went

0:39:19.080 --> 0:39:20.799
<v Speaker 1>there to cover this.

0:39:22.280 --> 0:39:27.560
<v Speaker 2>Yep, I'd not been I had not been to the

0:39:27.560 --> 0:39:33.080
<v Speaker 2>Pacific Northwest. I'd never heard of Moscow, Idaho. I'm pretty

0:39:33.080 --> 0:39:37.200
<v Speaker 2>sure I hadn't been to Washington State. I had been

0:39:37.239 --> 0:39:39.440
<v Speaker 2>to Seattle, so one of the families had a home

0:39:39.480 --> 0:39:46.600
<v Speaker 2>in loconnor but I hadn't spent much time there, not

0:39:46.680 --> 0:39:51.880
<v Speaker 2>being to Boise, I mean, I I and you know,

0:39:51.920 --> 0:39:56.000
<v Speaker 2>I will say that I did fall in love with

0:39:56.080 --> 0:39:59.359
<v Speaker 2>the people of Moscow. I mean, by the end of it,

0:40:00.080 --> 0:40:04.320
<v Speaker 2>as a sweepstake in the town that you know, perhaps

0:40:05.040 --> 0:40:09.520
<v Speaker 2>I'll go back one day and join the Moscow Police

0:40:09.520 --> 0:40:14.239
<v Speaker 2>Department as a detective, which I would very much like

0:40:14.320 --> 0:40:19.160
<v Speaker 2>to do. But I have a few other things, you know,

0:40:19.200 --> 0:40:20.960
<v Speaker 2>I have another book and stuff that I need to

0:40:21.000 --> 0:40:23.080
<v Speaker 2>have a few other things taking up my time in New

0:40:23.160 --> 0:40:25.880
<v Speaker 2>York right now. But it was, you know, that was

0:40:26.320 --> 0:40:31.400
<v Speaker 2>that was the upside of all of this. And I

0:40:31.440 --> 0:40:35.560
<v Speaker 2>really hope that the readers of the book, you know,

0:40:35.719 --> 0:40:37.960
<v Speaker 2>get that. I think you do. I think I think

0:40:38.400 --> 0:40:41.080
<v Speaker 2>you fall in love with the Idaho fall You fall

0:40:41.080 --> 0:40:43.080
<v Speaker 2>in love with the victims. You fall in love with

0:40:43.120 --> 0:40:47.759
<v Speaker 2>their friends, their families, and and and you know, Jim

0:40:47.800 --> 0:40:52.120
<v Speaker 2>and I j James Patterson. You know what we don't.

0:40:52.160 --> 0:40:55.319
<v Speaker 2>Our job is just to tell the story and to

0:40:55.360 --> 0:40:58.520
<v Speaker 2>tell their stories. We're not here to sit in judgment

0:40:59.640 --> 0:41:00.560
<v Speaker 2>on any one.

0:41:00.600 --> 0:41:00.839
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:41:01.000 --> 0:41:06.799
<v Speaker 2>It's a story about real people and experiencing real emotions

0:41:07.480 --> 0:41:11.080
<v Speaker 2>when something unfathomable happens. And I think that's why the

0:41:11.080 --> 0:41:13.480
<v Speaker 2>book is. You know, the book has been very successful.

0:41:13.520 --> 0:41:21.839
<v Speaker 2>It clearly does touch it called in people, which is

0:41:21.880 --> 0:41:23.960
<v Speaker 2>which is which is what we hope. But it's because

0:41:24.000 --> 0:41:29.000
<v Speaker 2>you see the resilience and the love as well as

0:41:29.040 --> 0:41:31.000
<v Speaker 2>the inexplicable evil.

0:41:33.480 --> 0:41:37.280
<v Speaker 1>You referenced at the beginning that for you and James

0:41:37.320 --> 0:41:42.040
<v Speaker 1>Pattersonior in North Star hero is Truman Capodi's in Cold Blood.

0:41:42.760 --> 0:41:45.360
<v Speaker 1>One of the people, uh that I know who have

0:41:46.080 --> 0:41:50.040
<v Speaker 1>who has read this book last night also compared it

0:41:50.080 --> 0:41:55.160
<v Speaker 1>to the Joe McGuinness book Fatal Fatal Vision about the

0:41:55.160 --> 0:42:02.400
<v Speaker 1>Fort Bragg murders, uh, committed by doctor Jeffrey McDonald back

0:42:02.480 --> 0:42:05.960
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen back in nineteen seventy and that you know,

0:42:06.040 --> 0:42:12.200
<v Speaker 1>there's so much unknown even to this day around why

0:42:12.920 --> 0:42:18.799
<v Speaker 1>and you know, part of adult life in how very

0:42:18.880 --> 0:42:24.600
<v Speaker 1>expedient culture is coming to the acceptance sometimes there is

0:42:24.640 --> 0:42:31.439
<v Speaker 1>no answer to that question of why. But when we

0:42:31.840 --> 0:42:36.080
<v Speaker 1>look out at what's going on in the country, he

0:42:36.239 --> 0:42:41.440
<v Speaker 1>is not the only monster that walks amongst us. Another

0:42:41.640 --> 0:42:46.120
<v Speaker 1>is a federal inmate who's incarcerated that you're familiar with,

0:42:46.840 --> 0:42:55.239
<v Speaker 1>a privileged subject of his majesty, a privileged daughter of

0:42:55.320 --> 0:43:03.680
<v Speaker 1>a British publisher who becomes Epstein's Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice his

0:43:04.040 --> 0:43:15.799
<v Speaker 1>procure of girls, and Islay Maxwell is getting ready, from

0:43:15.800 --> 0:43:20.040
<v Speaker 1>my reading of the situation, to walk out of federal

0:43:20.080 --> 0:43:26.560
<v Speaker 1>prison by the hand of the of the President of

0:43:26.680 --> 0:43:30.239
<v Speaker 1>the United States of America. How do you wrap your

0:43:30.239 --> 0:43:30.800
<v Speaker 1>head around that?

0:43:31.680 --> 0:43:34.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, I wish I could tell you I was more surprised,

0:43:35.800 --> 0:43:36.879
<v Speaker 2>and yet I'm not right.

0:43:36.960 --> 0:43:37.920
<v Speaker 1>This entire.

0:43:39.520 --> 0:43:45.920
<v Speaker 2>Story from the get go has been about how soft

0:43:45.960 --> 0:43:55.240
<v Speaker 2>power works have money and power and connections can buy justice.

0:43:56.000 --> 0:43:58.640
<v Speaker 2>I mean, from the get go that was that was

0:43:59.520 --> 0:44:04.040
<v Speaker 2>Jeffrey Epstein's story. You could argue to a certain degree,

0:44:04.040 --> 0:44:06.560
<v Speaker 2>it was also even before you get to Epstein, Gilen

0:44:06.600 --> 0:44:10.840
<v Speaker 2>Maxwell's father, Robert Maxwell, got away in his lifetime with

0:44:10.920 --> 0:44:13.080
<v Speaker 2>a huge amount. It was only when he was discovered

0:44:13.120 --> 0:44:18.080
<v Speaker 2>dead in the water in murky circumstances then it emerged

0:44:18.120 --> 0:44:22.799
<v Speaker 2>his wealth was a mirage. He had stolen nearly a

0:44:22.800 --> 0:44:27.040
<v Speaker 2>billion dollars from the pension funds of his employees. So

0:44:28.120 --> 0:44:34.120
<v Speaker 2>now that you have this extraordinary situation where Jeffrey Epstein

0:44:34.200 --> 0:44:38.640
<v Speaker 2>died in strange circumstances, never paid the price for his

0:44:38.719 --> 0:44:46.600
<v Speaker 2>sex crimes. Then Gilen Maxwell was convicted of being his

0:44:47.000 --> 0:44:51.920
<v Speaker 2>procurer and accomplice. Now you know, I mean, it's it

0:44:51.960 --> 0:44:55.000
<v Speaker 2>almost feels like it's just been the awaiting game from

0:44:55.040 --> 0:44:57.759
<v Speaker 2>her perspective, right, the clock has ticked on and now

0:44:57.920 --> 0:45:01.719
<v Speaker 2>and now she holds all the cards. She has the

0:45:01.800 --> 0:45:06.960
<v Speaker 2>leverage over Donald Trump. You know, he's got politically to

0:45:07.000 --> 0:45:10.439
<v Speaker 2>give his base something. We know that she sat there

0:45:10.480 --> 0:45:14.600
<v Speaker 2>for two days and gave Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche

0:45:14.880 --> 0:45:19.239
<v Speaker 2>a hundred names, and swiftly, or very swiftly, on the

0:45:19.239 --> 0:45:22.040
<v Speaker 2>heels of that, she's been moved to a cushy prison.

0:45:22.120 --> 0:45:24.160
<v Speaker 2>So you know, I mean, I mean, now it's it's

0:45:24.320 --> 0:45:25.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, I mean, you can sort of sit back

0:45:26.000 --> 0:45:29.799
<v Speaker 2>and you know how this blaze out. She'll something that

0:45:29.840 --> 0:45:33.600
<v Speaker 2>will be politically useful to Donald Trump will be rolled

0:45:33.600 --> 0:45:36.279
<v Speaker 2>out that she's given him, and she will and ex

0:45:36.600 --> 0:45:40.040
<v Speaker 2>but she you know, she's a very very clever you know,

0:45:40.120 --> 0:45:41.759
<v Speaker 2>she'll have done a deal. I mean, she's not going

0:45:41.840 --> 0:45:46.439
<v Speaker 2>to have handed him information that will save his skin

0:45:46.520 --> 0:45:49.200
<v Speaker 2>politically without having done a deal to save her skin.

0:45:49.520 --> 0:45:52.000
<v Speaker 2>So I mean, you know, I'm wait, I'm just expecting

0:45:52.560 --> 0:45:54.680
<v Speaker 2>that at some point, you know, I'll wake up one

0:45:54.680 --> 0:45:57.000
<v Speaker 2>morning and she'll be She'll have left the country and

0:45:57.040 --> 0:46:00.160
<v Speaker 2>have been sent back to either France or England, or

0:46:00.160 --> 0:46:03.040
<v Speaker 2>he'll commute his sentence. So there'll be something. There'll be something,

0:46:03.080 --> 0:46:10.920
<v Speaker 2>and the victims will completely justifiably be stunned, shocked, appalled,

0:46:10.960 --> 0:46:13.040
<v Speaker 2>and you know, a mockery will have been made of

0:46:13.120 --> 0:46:17.239
<v Speaker 2>the United system, the United States justice system, and life

0:46:17.280 --> 0:46:17.680
<v Speaker 2>goes on.

0:46:18.080 --> 0:46:21.200
<v Speaker 1>Is that the end of it? Then? Is that? It is? It?

0:46:21.239 --> 0:46:22.360
<v Speaker 1>Is it? At the life?

0:46:22.480 --> 0:46:24.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think it will be interesting.

0:46:25.080 --> 0:46:31.239
<v Speaker 1>Online that because the the proposition, right is that they

0:46:31.360 --> 0:46:39.440
<v Speaker 1>just got away with it. The because the because the

0:46:39.440 --> 0:46:44.600
<v Speaker 1>the final chapter will have been or it won't just

0:46:44.719 --> 0:46:50.600
<v Speaker 1>be that she's released, she'll be asserted to be by

0:46:50.719 --> 0:46:54.080
<v Speaker 1>the chief law enforcement officers of the country to be

0:46:54.120 --> 0:46:58.160
<v Speaker 1>a victim when she's a child sex trafficker.

0:46:59.120 --> 0:47:05.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, that is very very problematic for obvious reasons. She

0:47:05.560 --> 0:47:08.400
<v Speaker 2>wasn't a victim. I mean, it's a sad life story.

0:47:08.440 --> 0:47:11.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I've said this. You know that a grown

0:47:11.480 --> 0:47:15.960
<v Speaker 2>woman at the age of thirty whose rich father dies

0:47:16.000 --> 0:47:19.560
<v Speaker 2>in murky circumstances. Turns out he's a crook, and so

0:47:19.600 --> 0:47:24.760
<v Speaker 2>she's no longer rich, but she nonetheless as an Oxford degree,

0:47:25.200 --> 0:47:29.120
<v Speaker 2>speaks many languages, has her father's rolodex of world leaders

0:47:29.160 --> 0:47:31.400
<v Speaker 2>around the world. The idea, you know, it's sad that

0:47:31.480 --> 0:47:37.600
<v Speaker 2>somebody like that doesn't think, oh I can I this is,

0:47:37.800 --> 0:47:41.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, tragic, but I can build a life for

0:47:41.960 --> 0:47:45.080
<v Speaker 2>myself and a career for myself with all these extraordinary

0:47:45.080 --> 0:47:51.200
<v Speaker 2>privileges and tools. Instead, she thinks, I'm now dependent on

0:47:51.280 --> 0:47:54.960
<v Speaker 2>a different man. I'm now dependent on this guy, Jeffrey Epstein,

0:47:55.000 --> 0:47:57.839
<v Speaker 2>who's looking after me financially. So what do I need

0:47:57.880 --> 0:48:03.440
<v Speaker 2>to do to you getting a paycheck from him and

0:48:03.680 --> 0:48:08.680
<v Speaker 2>continue and make myself indispensable to him? And the answer

0:48:09.120 --> 0:48:15.279
<v Speaker 2>is bringing him children to traffic and abuse. I mean,

0:48:15.320 --> 0:48:18.360
<v Speaker 2>that's just you know, that's not a victim. The story,

0:48:18.440 --> 0:48:20.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't think. I don't think the story ends, and

0:48:20.520 --> 0:48:25.880
<v Speaker 2>I'll tell you why, because because the questions about who's

0:48:26.719 --> 0:48:29.840
<v Speaker 2>I think the scale of this is so enormous that

0:48:30.480 --> 0:48:36.000
<v Speaker 2>one or two names alone won't do it. We don't know,

0:48:36.880 --> 0:48:40.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, I mean Jeffrey Epstein's the source of Jeffrey

0:48:40.000 --> 0:48:44.879
<v Speaker 2>Epstein's wealth is so opaque at this moment. And and

0:48:45.080 --> 0:48:47.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, and I will the money is the source

0:48:47.040 --> 0:48:52.480
<v Speaker 2>of the power. And why did all these wealthy, unnamed

0:48:52.640 --> 0:48:56.359
<v Speaker 2>people want to give so much money to a guy

0:48:56.440 --> 0:49:01.480
<v Speaker 2>with no credentials? What was the hold over them? I mean,

0:49:01.520 --> 0:49:04.280
<v Speaker 2>you're just You're talking about such an enormous amount of money,

0:49:04.680 --> 0:49:09.200
<v Speaker 2>You're talking about so many international connections. I don't think

0:49:09.760 --> 0:49:13.280
<v Speaker 2>a couple of names rolled out by the Justice Department

0:49:13.440 --> 0:49:17.279
<v Speaker 2>is going to sufficiently answer the questions that people have

0:49:17.320 --> 0:49:21.960
<v Speaker 2>about Jeffrey Epstein. So, actually, why my worry is almost

0:49:22.320 --> 0:49:25.359
<v Speaker 2>not dissimilar from the same that the Gonzalves family has

0:49:25.400 --> 0:49:29.560
<v Speaker 2>about Brian Coburger than in a sense, Helen Maxwell has

0:49:29.600 --> 0:49:34.279
<v Speaker 2>now got the power she has. She has She's able

0:49:34.280 --> 0:49:37.160
<v Speaker 2>to tell the story that everyone wants to hear, But

0:49:37.239 --> 0:49:42.320
<v Speaker 2>at what cost, At the cost of making an absolute

0:49:42.320 --> 0:49:45.360
<v Speaker 2>mockery of the United States Justice Department.

0:49:46.960 --> 0:49:53.160
<v Speaker 1>I've told the story before, both in writing and I'm

0:49:53.200 --> 0:49:58.279
<v Speaker 1>worrying podcasts about a man named Abner Less, and he

0:49:58.560 --> 0:50:05.600
<v Speaker 1>was a German Jew who becomes an Israeli police captain,

0:50:06.480 --> 0:50:09.920
<v Speaker 1>and he is the man who interrogates Adolph Hikman for

0:50:10.000 --> 0:50:13.120
<v Speaker 1>two hundred and seventy five hours, doesn't talk about the

0:50:13.239 --> 0:50:17.239
<v Speaker 1>experience really for twenty years, and then is asked a

0:50:17.320 --> 0:50:20.920
<v Speaker 1>question about did you have a takeaway from it? And

0:50:21.520 --> 0:50:26.040
<v Speaker 1>he says, yeah, yeah, I did. My takeaway was that

0:50:26.080 --> 0:50:30.480
<v Speaker 1>there are Adolph Hikmans everywhere. They're all around us, but

0:50:30.520 --> 0:50:34.880
<v Speaker 1>they're latent and harmless in democracies, but become deadly in

0:50:35.000 --> 0:50:38.640
<v Speaker 1>an instant in a dictatorship of the left or right.

0:50:39.239 --> 0:50:43.920
<v Speaker 1>My takeaway is it gave me my faith in democracy.

0:50:45.360 --> 0:50:51.120
<v Speaker 1>I've a friend of mine who is a Democratic candidate

0:50:51.280 --> 0:50:55.640
<v Speaker 1>for the Senate in Texas. He was the commander of

0:50:55.680 --> 0:51:00.960
<v Speaker 1>the International Space Station. Spent two hundred teen ds and

0:51:01.080 --> 0:51:05.560
<v Speaker 1>space looking down in eight billion of us with six

0:51:05.719 --> 0:51:09.440
<v Speaker 1>colleagues up there floating above the Earth. You know, ask

0:51:09.560 --> 0:51:12.560
<v Speaker 1>them what is what is takeaway from the experience was,

0:51:12.640 --> 0:51:19.759
<v Speaker 1>and it was the deep sense of connection that you

0:51:19.960 --> 0:51:24.920
<v Speaker 1>can visibly see in the in the planet, which is

0:51:24.960 --> 0:51:30.319
<v Speaker 1>a living organism and perfectly clear from from space. And

0:51:30.400 --> 0:51:35.279
<v Speaker 1>so I wonder with you when when you when you

0:51:35.320 --> 0:51:42.480
<v Speaker 1>go deep into these stories. Crow Burger Epstein, what is

0:51:42.560 --> 0:51:49.160
<v Speaker 1>your takeaway from this type of reporting at the well,

0:51:49.239 --> 0:51:49.600
<v Speaker 1>I know.

0:51:50.040 --> 0:51:54.200
<v Speaker 2>What you just said, you know, I everything is connected.

0:51:55.000 --> 0:51:57.919
<v Speaker 2>You know, everything is connected, and it's and that's why

0:51:57.920 --> 0:52:01.200
<v Speaker 2>actually having conversations like this are always so important because

0:52:01.640 --> 0:52:04.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, I get so in it. But in a

0:52:04.200 --> 0:52:07.560
<v Speaker 2>sense you do this because there is a bigger meaning

0:52:08.040 --> 0:52:10.360
<v Speaker 2>that is important for people. You know, why do we

0:52:10.400 --> 0:52:13.960
<v Speaker 2>read great literary fiction because in the end, you know

0:52:14.719 --> 0:52:18.640
<v Speaker 2>that we recognize something that in it about the particular,

0:52:18.719 --> 0:52:23.080
<v Speaker 2>that tells us something important about the universal. And so

0:52:23.440 --> 0:52:25.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, I think the battle for the control of

0:52:25.600 --> 0:52:30.359
<v Speaker 2>the narrative is an important scene to think about when

0:52:30.480 --> 0:52:33.719
<v Speaker 2>thinking about Gilen Maxwell, I mean to pull out from

0:52:33.760 --> 0:52:36.160
<v Speaker 2>the day to day noise. And it's the same question

0:52:36.320 --> 0:52:41.319
<v Speaker 2>about Brian Coberger. I will you know, the flip side

0:52:41.360 --> 0:52:43.400
<v Speaker 2>of this is, you know, and I've written about a

0:52:43.480 --> 0:52:47.680
<v Speaker 2>lot of corrupt people over the decades at this point,

0:52:48.600 --> 0:52:53.040
<v Speaker 2>and I will say this, you know, the flip side

0:52:53.080 --> 0:52:59.200
<v Speaker 2>of it all is that in most instances there is.

0:52:59.160 --> 0:53:04.640
<v Speaker 3>A comics that I have observed that if people behave

0:53:05.719 --> 0:53:12.680
<v Speaker 3>really badly in the end, in most cases you know,

0:53:12.719 --> 0:53:14.439
<v Speaker 3>I was at Fancy Fair for fourteen years.

0:53:14.480 --> 0:53:18.120
<v Speaker 2>I noticed this. In most cases, it catches up to

0:53:18.200 --> 0:53:23.160
<v Speaker 2>you that most people who achieve great power and who

0:53:23.320 --> 0:53:27.800
<v Speaker 2>use that power for ill, in most instances it comes

0:53:27.960 --> 0:53:30.799
<v Speaker 2>that bad behavior comes back to bite them. Not all

0:53:31.120 --> 0:53:34.760
<v Speaker 2>And obviously the moment that we're living in right now

0:53:34.920 --> 0:53:37.760
<v Speaker 2>is I think one of the things that's so unsettling

0:53:37.800 --> 0:53:42.040
<v Speaker 2>about the moment that we live in is it is

0:53:42.200 --> 0:53:46.040
<v Speaker 2>that one's looking for where is the karma right now?

0:53:46.400 --> 0:53:48.719
<v Speaker 2>It's you know, it's not readily apparent. But I think

0:53:48.800 --> 0:53:51.680
<v Speaker 2>that one of the things that keeps me going is

0:53:51.760 --> 0:53:54.920
<v Speaker 2>I think I do believe. I do believe that in

0:53:54.960 --> 0:53:58.400
<v Speaker 2>the end people people's actions catch up to them.

0:53:58.560 --> 0:54:03.120
<v Speaker 1>Doctor King said, the moral arc of the universe is long,

0:54:03.200 --> 0:54:07.719
<v Speaker 1>but it bends towards justice. Bob Marley said, never give

0:54:07.840 --> 0:54:13.920
<v Speaker 1>up the fight, and that's good advice. Vicky Ward you

0:54:13.960 --> 0:54:17.840
<v Speaker 1>can find here everybody at Vicky Ward investigates one of

0:54:18.600 --> 0:54:24.000
<v Speaker 1>the best of the best, an investigative journalist, a truth

0:54:24.040 --> 0:54:28.400
<v Speaker 1>seeker author, along with James Patterson, of the new book

0:54:28.880 --> 0:54:33.640
<v Speaker 1>The Idaho Four, which goes deep into the Terrible murders,

0:54:34.200 --> 0:54:40.160
<v Speaker 1>committed it to University in Moscow, Idaho and the colic

0:54:40.320 --> 0:54:44.960
<v Speaker 1>college town, one of the most beautiful corners of the country.

0:54:45.560 --> 0:54:51.200
<v Speaker 1>Story of brutality and innocence lost, and so much more

0:54:51.520 --> 0:54:56.560
<v Speaker 1>about what is happening in our country, beneath the surface

0:54:56.840 --> 0:54:59.840
<v Speaker 1>and above it. But VICKI thank you so much for

0:54:59.840 --> 0:55:04.279
<v Speaker 1>your time today. Really enjoyed the conversation and hope to

0:55:04.320 --> 0:55:05.040
<v Speaker 1>see you again.

0:55:05.960 --> 0:55:10.719
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much. Steve, I really appreciated your thoughtful questions.

0:55:11.280 --> 0:55:12.680
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, goodbye.

0:55:13.520 --> 0:55:14.600
<v Speaker 4>I'm Steve Schmidt.

0:55:14.719 --> 0:55:16.000
<v Speaker 1>This is the warning.

0:55:16.120 --> 0:55:19.000
<v Speaker 4>I invite you to join this community, where I promise

0:55:19.239 --> 0:55:23.120
<v Speaker 4>to be honest, blunt and direct about what is happening

0:55:23.160 --> 0:55:27.640
<v Speaker 4>in this country. America is in crisis. Follow and subscribe

0:55:27.760 --> 0:55:29.640
<v Speaker 4>to this channel and on substack.

0:55:29.880 --> 0:55:30.239
<v Speaker 1>Thank you.