1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,200 Speaker 1: And I'm Steve Schmidt with the Warning and I am 2 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: delighted today to be joined by one of the pre 3 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 1: eminent investigative journalists in the English speaking world, Vicky Ward 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: of Vicky Ward is a new Netflix documentary out about it, 5 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: and of course I'm talking about the title of her book, 6 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: appropriately focused on the victims the Idaho for the terrible 7 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: murders committed by Brian Kroberger in town of Moscow, Idaho, 8 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: a Bucolic university town in the reddest of Red States, 9 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: and the book is about all of the schisms in 10 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: our society. We'll also talk this afternoon a little bit 11 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: about Jeffrey Epstein, because Vicky Ward has investigated that case. 12 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: And when we talk about class in America, when you 13 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: talk about power in America, when you talk about accountability 14 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: in America, it seems that Jeffrey Epstein's hand keeps reaching 15 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,320 Speaker 1: up from the grave. And so as we get the 16 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 1: conversation started, Vicky, what is at the core what drew 17 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: you to this case that makes you want to go 18 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: so deep into such a very very dark story. 19 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 2: This one is the Coburger story, right, Yeah, I do 20 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 2: hope for well, you're right, Steve It's a big departure 21 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 2: for me. You know, I normally look at corruption and 22 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 2: power and money, and this is very different. I was 23 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 2: wrapping up a podcast series about the Federalist Society, Cool 24 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 2: Pipeline Power. It's about the ties between Yale Law School, 25 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 2: which most people think of as very progressive, but it's 26 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 2: about the ties between Yale Law School and the Supreme 27 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 2: Court on the conservative side. And it was very, very interesting, 28 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 2: but it took me a very long time. I'd spent 29 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 2: two years thinking about originalism and sort of one key 30 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 2: constitutional legal theory. And I'm the mom of twin sons 31 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 2: who are now twenty two. In November of twenty twenty two, 32 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 2: when the murders happened, they were both in college. And 33 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 2: so there was something about the photograph of the four 34 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 2: victims in Moscow, Idaho, these beautiful four college kids, that 35 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:54,399 Speaker 2: really just stayed with me because these kids were so ordinary, 36 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 2: it could have been any of our kids. And I 37 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 2: kind of couldn't get that photograph out of my head. 38 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 2: And as my kids then came home for Thanksgiving and 39 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 2: later then for Christmas and they still had no clue 40 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 2: who had done this unspeakable saying, I kept wondering about 41 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 2: those kids' families. I was also very drawn by the 42 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 2: pictures of the news of Moscow, this little town in 43 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 2: Idaho I'd never heard of, but as you said, incredibly bucolic, 44 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 2: picture perfect small American town, jarringly at odds with the 45 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 2: tragedy really of what had happened. And then when they 46 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 2: arrested on the other side of the country in Pennsylvania, 47 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 2: much closer to where I live in New York, this 48 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 2: criminology PhD student, you know, something about the fact that 49 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 2: he was also a college student was interesting to me, 50 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 2: and I did wonder and the mother of young adult sons, 51 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 2: what it was that could have driven him, someone who 52 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 2: had overcome heroin addiction as a teenager and obviously overcome 53 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 2: considerable sort of personal difficulty, to then get into a 54 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 2: PhD program at a prestigious university, Washington State University, and 55 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 2: then go out blow it all up, and go out 56 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 2: and commit these unspeakable crimes. There was something about that, 57 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 2: and it all felt It felt in contrast to thinking 58 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 2: about the Supreme Court. It felt very gritty and very 59 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 2: real and very tangible, and I was sort of mulling 60 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 2: all this aloud. I've worked with James Patterson before on 61 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 2: podcasts Only Enough on Epstein related podcasts, and he phoned 62 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 2: me up and said, I hear you're interested in writing 63 00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 2: a book about these murders and something about them, he said. 64 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,799 Speaker 2: Spoke to him as well, and we both agreed that 65 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 2: there's something about it felt reminiscent of In Cold Blood 66 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 2: by Truman Capoti, which is I think a book that 67 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 2: had both left a searing impression on both of us, 68 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 2: and we agreed that if we were going to do this, 69 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 2: we were going to write a book that would feel personal, 70 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 2: it would feel emotional. We wanted readers to know the 71 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 2: four victims Maddie Kayley's Anna An Ethan. We wanted them, 72 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 2: readers to feel what the day to day of their 73 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 2: lives were like, what their different personalities were, and we 74 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 2: wanted readers to feel like they were there in Moscow 75 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 2: when these murders happened. And we wanted readers to sort 76 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 2: of feel the awful ripple effect that happens when something 77 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: like this happens on and how the friends and the 78 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 2: families are affected, yes, but also how the coroner is affected, 79 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 2: the police chief, the mayor, the local journalist. People sort 80 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,239 Speaker 2: of maybe six degrees away. I mean in this case, 81 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 2: you know, one of the local business owners almost went 82 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 2: bust because of the true crime mania that developed in 83 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 2: the wake of the of the murders. There was all 84 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 2: this online speculation and we get into that, you know, 85 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 2: just how harmful this was. We get into the fact 86 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 2: that there was a political divide in the town at 87 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 2: the time of the murders. It's this is a liberal 88 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 2: college town, but there is a conservative church in Moscow 89 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 2: which has four thousand members. The town has only got 90 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 2: a population of twenty four thousand. The church is very rich, 91 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 2: up a lot of main street. It's leader who is 92 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 2: you know, talks a lot for the book. A stated 93 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 2: mission is to evangelize this town. And at the time 94 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 2: of the murders, lawsuits were flying between the church and 95 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 2: the police and civic leaders because various arrests have been 96 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 2: made of church members during COVID because they'd refused to 97 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 2: wear masks and other reasons. So it was very helpful 98 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 2: for the church politically when the police appeared in the 99 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 2: eyes of the American media to look like the Keystone 100 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 2: Cops for six weeks, when the police initially said nothing 101 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 2: after these murders had happened, and then there was a 102 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 2: drum beat of criticism online and elsewhere, like why are 103 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 2: they saying nothing? There could be a murderer roaming around 104 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 2: and this you know, this played into the hands of 105 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 2: the church who thought it could be very, very helpful 106 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 2: for us if the police screw up. So that you know, 107 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 2: there is all of this in the book. It's not 108 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: just about a terrible crime that happens in the middle 109 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 2: of the night, but it is about that too. 110 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: When when you think about what happened there in this 111 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 1: college town, and you think about those those four kids, 112 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: and you go, you go into a story like this, 113 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: how do you reconcile yourself to facing the evil that 114 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: manifests and stares back at you? How do you how 115 00:08:53,600 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: do you process the the event and the human being 116 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: who committed the act and the motivation which remains I 117 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: don't know what word would you use, nebulous at at 118 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: at at at best? How how do you how do 119 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: you think about that that presence of of evil And 120 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: as you cover this, you are bringing it close to 121 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: you in a in a lot of different ways. Talk 122 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: talk about that. 123 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 2: As a really, really great question. So it's a balancing 124 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 2: act for me in that the sort of forensic detective 125 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 2: inside of mind, My brain and personality wants to find 126 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 2: the answers I want to piece the jigsaw puzzle together. 127 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 2: I mean, I think that, you know, one of the 128 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 2: things that drives me to write the pieces I write, 129 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 2: write the books I write, is I'm looking to make 130 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:28,319 Speaker 2: sense of things, and often you can't. And so it's 131 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 2: about I have to balance my curiosity and wanting to 132 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 2: understand and hoping that by going out and getting as 133 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 2: much understanding as I can about Brian Coburger, that there 134 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 2: will be something in that that is revelatory and helpful 135 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 2: and tells us something about the broader cultural moment that 136 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 2: we are in. And I do think that his story, 137 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 2: just the bits we do know, are helpful in that regard. 138 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 2: You know, I knew nothing about the quote unquote in 139 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 2: cell movement, the involuntary celibate movement that a lot of 140 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 2: antisocial young men stuck on their phones who've been rejected 141 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 2: by women increasingly are very familiar with. You know, my 142 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 2: sons know all about the insult movement. I didn't, So 143 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 2: I think, you know, it was helpful for me at least, 144 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 2: and I suspect for many other people, maybe of my age, 145 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:34,599 Speaker 2: you know, who don't know anything about it, to understand 146 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 2: at least what the forces are on the internet that 147 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 2: our kids are being exposed to. 148 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: So what what is in? What is in in cell? 149 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 2: So an insull is the colloquial term for an involuntary celibate, 150 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:58,359 Speaker 2: and they're in the last ten years or more, accelerated 151 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 2: by COVID. There are a large number of disaffected men, 152 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 2: young men whose physical interactions with women is possibly negligible, 153 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 2: and you know, again partly to do with COVID, but 154 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 2: also partly to do with, you know, the way human 155 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 2: behavior has changed given our alliance on technology and social media. 156 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 2: I mean, people don't physically go out in the way 157 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 2: they maybe did thirty years ago, because you meet people 158 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 2: on your phone when you get rejected, having not actually 159 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 2: moved from your desk. And there is a large growing 160 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 2: movement among young men who've never experienced, never had sex 161 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 2: with a woman. That's what you never even touch to women. 162 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 2: They tend to congregate on the sort of dark corners 163 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 2: of the Internet. 164 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: I don't want to, I don't want to interrupt you, 165 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: but I want to I want to understand. I want 166 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: to understand this a little more deeply and I and 167 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: I just want to back up two steps to something 168 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: you said, which is, I immediately go in my head to 169 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: the physical world of some young guy walking up to 170 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: a woman young woman and being rejected. But that's not 171 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: what this is. What you said is, this is somebody 172 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: who is sitting isolated to begin with, trying to make 173 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:45,439 Speaker 1: a digital connection through the means by which young people meet, 174 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: which is online, and they are perpetually rejected through whatever 175 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: that digital persona is, whatever their images, whatever their words is. 176 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: However they present themselves to the world, and that connection, 177 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: that ability to step outside of that isolation is denied 178 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,559 Speaker 1: them for for whatever reason. Do I do? I did 179 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:14,199 Speaker 1: I describe that accurately? 180 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 2: You did? And then what happens is two people, you know, 181 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 2: to a lot of these isolated, typically anti social young men, 182 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 2: I mean that that when they do then I mean 183 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 2: Brian Cobo did try to then go to a bar 184 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 2: once or twice and it didn't go well. So he 185 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 2: retreats back into his own world of the internet and him. So, 186 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 2: but you're right that most of the rejection is experienced virtually, 187 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 2: and so I. So when I sort of traced his childhood, 188 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 2: teenage years young adulthood. That was, you know, you asked me. 189 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 2: That was interesting, interesting for me to learn. I was 190 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 2: interested to learn that he had been exposed to this 191 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 2: video when he was an undergraduate, when he was doing 192 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 2: his master's degree actually in psychology at the Sales University 193 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 2: in Pennsylvania. I was interested to learn that he'd watched 194 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 2: these videos made by this guy, Elliott Roger, who in 195 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 2: twenty fourteen was a college student on the West Coast 196 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 2: out in Santa Barbara and who had also been rejected 197 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 2: and you know, never had sex with women. It was 198 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 2: a sort of social outcast. And Elliott Roger had written 199 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 2: a memoir of his sad life and he'd made these videos. 200 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 2: He was a privileged kid sitting in his BMW with 201 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 2: the son setting behind him at the Santa Barbara Hills, 202 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 2: saying that he was now going to go out and 203 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 2: take his revenge on the sorority women who've rejected him. 204 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 2: And he sent this video to his therapist, who sent 205 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 2: it to his mother minutes before he went out and 206 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 2: killed a large number of people, injured others, and finally 207 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 2: killed himself. This was something that Brian Coburger knew all 208 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 2: about and that you know that his fellow classmates talked 209 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 2: to me about and he was also so much I found. 210 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: That's two thousand, fourteen, fifteen, fourteen. 211 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 2: Fourteen, and I only bring it up because Steve, You're right, 212 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 2: we don't know. The police looked very hard for Coburger's motive. 213 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 2: He had wiped his digital footprint clean, so they they 214 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 2: were left guessing. But James Fry, the police chief, did 215 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 2: say to me that, you know, recently after the book 216 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: came out and when the gag order around this case 217 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 2: was lifted, that he was frustrated by the lack of 218 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 2: transparency from Washington State University, which is where Brian Coburger 219 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 2: goes for his PhD. And had this case gone to trial, 220 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 2: the victims' families had always told me they really wanted 221 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 2: to know what the red flags were in Coburger's behavior 222 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 2: on the campus of Washington State University, because that has 223 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 2: remained a black box. And in the book, I think 224 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 2: we do lift a veil on some of that, and 225 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 2: you do see that by the time he gets there, 226 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 2: he is a full blown misogynist and that is why, 227 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 2: and it's is heinous views of women and it's treatment 228 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 2: of women that lead him to blow up. He's the 229 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 2: funding of his PhD. You know, he's got a teaching position, 230 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 2: which is how he's able to pay for his PhD. 231 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: And by the time the murders happened, he has been 232 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 2: called in before the administration at Washington State University so 233 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 2: often that you know, it's clear he's about to be fired. 234 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 2: And this is all because of the way he speaks 235 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 2: to women and interrupts them, he grades them poorly, but 236 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 2: he also follows one of them out to her car, 237 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 2: creeping her out, and he's you know, there's this scene 238 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 2: in the book where a guy who's in his class 239 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 2: they call it a cohort, makes the mistake of getting 240 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 2: a lift from Coburger where and Coburg events to him 241 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 2: in the car about women and says, you know, I 242 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,640 Speaker 2: could have any woman I want if I walked into 243 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 2: a bar or any social gathering, I could you know, 244 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 2: I could pick up any woman. Do what I want 245 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 2: with that, And he then goes on to say that 246 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 2: he believes, you know, he has a nineteen seventies sort 247 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 2: of view of what women's role should be in the world, 248 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 2: that women belong in the bedroom and the kitchen. They 249 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 2: have no business in his mind doing college degrees. And so, 250 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 2: you know, this classmate of fits listens to all of 251 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 2: this with increasing kind of horror. And by the week 252 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 2: before the murders, this same classmate, guy called Ben Roberts 253 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 2: is it's so troubled by Coburger's appearance, so clear to 254 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 2: him that the guy is there's something terribly wrong. Then 255 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 2: he starts to type out what they call a care 256 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 2: form that is supposed to go to the administration anonymously, 257 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 2: and you know, tragically, you know, he looks up at 258 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 2: Coburger again and he thinks, you know, there's something so 259 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 2: off about this guy. If he ever finds out it's 260 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 2: me who's sending in this form, there could be trouble. 261 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: That's something I don't need. So he deletes it and 262 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 2: doesn't send it, which, obviously, given what Coburger then went 263 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 2: out and did in Moscow, is very troubling. But I 264 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 2: bring up the Elliott Roger comparison. We don't know that 265 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 2: they are connected, but there are parallels that are at 266 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 2: least interesting. Elliot Roger in twenty fourteen went back and 267 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 2: forth between two college House and Isla Vista. We're going 268 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 2: and Elliott Roger in his book, and Brian Coburger lived 269 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 2: in Pullman in Washington State where Washington State University is, 270 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: which is a ten minute drive from Moscow, Idaho, so 271 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 2: there's that similarity. There is also the fact that Elliott 272 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 2: Roger wrote in his book that a woman he was 273 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,199 Speaker 2: specifically had in mind, she wasn't in the end. One 274 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 2: of his victims was a childhood friend called Maddie, and 275 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:47,199 Speaker 2: the one of the victims one of Coburger's victims was 276 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 2: Madison Maddie Mogan, whose nickname was Maddie, and most of 277 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 2: the families of all four victims and the friends believe 278 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 2: that Maddie Mogan was actually Coburger's intended target, not the 279 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 2: other three, because that it was her bedroom that he 280 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 2: went to on the night of the murders. He would 281 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 2: have had no way of knowing that he would find 282 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 2: her best friend there with her, because she had already 283 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 2: left the house days before, and she was only happened 284 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 2: to be there by complete chants. And it was Maddie 285 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 2: Mogan's bedroom you could see from the road if you 286 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 2: parked your car at the back of the house, which 287 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 2: is what the police believe that he did twelve times 288 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 2: between August and the night of the murders, and you 289 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 2: would have been you could see Maddie Mgen through the 290 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 2: window putting on her makeup or curling her hair, and 291 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 2: anyone would have known it was her room because her 292 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 2: name Maddie was spelled out in the window. So those 293 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 2: are the parallels. But you're right when you know your 294 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 2: original question, what's it like confronting this darkness? 295 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: You know? 296 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 2: And there are definitely moments where you know, I have 297 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 2: had sleepless nights thinking about the thinking about the evil. 298 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 2: And you know, also I'm a mom, and you know 299 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,360 Speaker 2: that sometimes just because I'm interested in something, I don't 300 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 2: Also I'm always conscious I don't want to bring trouble 301 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 2: on anyone else in my family. I mean, that's something 302 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 2: to think about. But I also think that as often 303 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 2: happens when you when you start digging in a story 304 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 2: about really bad people. I mean, I think Brian Coburger 305 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 2: is is unmitigated evil in a way I'm not sure 306 00:23:55,560 --> 00:24:01,959 Speaker 2: I've ever seen before. Actually, but what But but the 307 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 2: flip side of that is that I think the you 308 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 2: know what, the book, So the book shows the very 309 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 2: worst of humanity. I also think it shows the best 310 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 2: of humanity. And I did find that the people of Moscow, 311 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 2: you know, were extraordinarily welcoming. 312 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: To me. 313 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 2: The victims' families really took me in, you know. I 314 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 2: went and stayed with the family of Eathan Japin at 315 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 2: their home in pre Slate. The victims friends, particularly the 316 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 2: young couple who found the bodies that awful morning, you know, 317 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 2: sort of became like surrogate children to me. I mean, 318 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 2: what they you know, they couldn't unsee what they'd seen, 319 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 2: and their bravery and resilience touched me. And I think 320 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 2: those are the reasons in the air. And you keep going, 321 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 2: and it's as important to show that as it is 322 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 2: to show evil. Does that make sense? 323 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 1: It does. Is there any connection that you're aware of 324 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: between Roger in Santa Barbara in the Columbine shootings? There 325 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: is an enormous body of work that links that original 326 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: school shooting, not original, but the preeminent school shooting of 327 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: the era, let's say, to dozens and dozens of mass 328 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: killings where those Columbine shooters have been fetishized by a 329 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: later mass killing. And I wondered if you had any awareness, 330 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: if there was any connection between you're in the combine 331 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: killers and any type of adoration, any of followership on 332 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: that connection. 333 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 2: Well, we do know that there are people. In fact, 334 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 2: you said to me you're in Toronto. There was a 335 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 2: Toronto killing in twenty nineteen that was explicitly a copycat 336 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 2: of Elliott Roger, quite explicitly Columbine. I don't know if 337 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 2: it's explicit, but you know, this is it's a question 338 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 2: that is definitely in the minds certainly. I know of 339 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 2: the Gonzalves family, the family of Kayleie Gonzalves, and it's something, 340 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 2: you know, it's something that I would like to do 341 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 2: more research into. I'm actually going to have dinner next 342 00:26:54,280 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 2: week with Catherine Ramsland, the criminologist, who is the who 343 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 2: is the professor who showed the Elliott Roger video to Coburger. 344 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 2: She's got to be very careful about what she can 345 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 2: say to me about Coburger because of fur per restrictions, 346 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,719 Speaker 2: but she can talk to me more generally about Elliott 347 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 2: Roger and about all the other murderers that she taught 348 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 2: her class about. So that's something that I, you know, 349 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 2: want to look into more. 350 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 1: If you shot down with Coburger, what would you ask him. 351 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 2: I mean, the obvious question is why. But I wonder, 352 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 2: if you know, is this actually want wanted? What he wanted. 353 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,199 Speaker 2: I have to feel that it was performative. But what 354 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 2: he did. I mean, having having now gone to the 355 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 2: Poconos scene where he grew up, got to know the 356 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 2: mother of his only friend, who sadly died of a 357 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 2: drug overdose in twenty twenty one, there is no doubt 358 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 2: that he has catapulted himself from a lonely life of 359 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 2: hardship and obscurity to now he's a household name. And 360 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 2: what I do know about his teenage is suggests to 361 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:31,239 Speaker 2: me he's a deeply manipulative, clever individual. I mean, I 362 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 2: say that, you know, there's in the book, there's this 363 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 2: scene where he phones up his best friend's mother when 364 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 2: his best friend has been arrested. They both become heroin addicts. 365 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 2: His best friend, Jeremy has been arrested for the first 366 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 2: time for drugs possession and is in jail, and Coburger 367 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 2: phones out the mother and says, I'm so sorry. You know, 368 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 2: when are you going to see him? I'd like to 369 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 2: come to So she tells him what we're going tomorrow 370 00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 2: At eleven whatever time, and she and her husband arrived 371 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 2: at the jail. There's no sign of Coburger. But when 372 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 2: they get back to her house, they can see they've 373 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 2: been burgled, they've been robbed, and she knows immediately who 374 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 2: it is. So Coburger used and years later, when he's 375 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 2: in rehab he can't. He appears in her kitchen to apologize, 376 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 2: which he understands is one of the steps. You know, 377 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 2: a tonament, they ask you to take it in rehab. 378 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 2: But I mean, that's a he was a very you know, 379 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 2: he's thought this through, I mean, and and and were 380 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 2: it not for the knife sheath, one mistake, he might 381 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 2: well have got away with this. Actually, so there is 382 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 2: a perform you know. So I think I want to 383 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 2: know if this was all, this was this, this was 384 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 2: what he wanted, I mean, and I and the fear, 385 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 2: the fear, the fear that the Gonzalvez family has and 386 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 2: the reason they didn't want a plea deal and I've 387 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 2: been vocally upset about that and would have preferred to 388 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 2: see this go to trial, is that their fear is Yes, 389 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,479 Speaker 2: he's now looked up in jail without parole for the 390 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 2: rest of his life. But he still has the possibility 391 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 2: of telling his story, which gives him the power of 392 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 2: controlling the narrative. And you know, they've got instinct and 393 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 2: I suspect they're right, is that that's what he wanted 394 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 2: all along. I mean, this has given him a platform 395 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 2: and a spotlight that he never had, and so I think, 396 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 2: you know, I feel very sorry for the Gunzalbas family. 397 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 2: I do understand their concerns. I mean, there would have 398 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 2: been issues had the thing gone trial. There's always a 399 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 2: risk that their trials don't necessarily go the way people expect, 400 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 2: and they would have been years and years of appeals 401 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 2: or you know, had he been convicted. I mean, but 402 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 2: I do understand that their worry is that now, in 403 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 2: the current situation, he has the ability to regain control 404 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 2: of the story of what happened to their daughter. And 405 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 2: that's a horrifying thought to. 406 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: Them, No doubt, this has been such a difficult story 407 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: in part of you for reference, having kids, I have 408 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: a twenty two year old college aged Maddie. So this 409 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: is this is a story that I have the deepest 410 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: aversion to from the you know, for the for the 411 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: obvious reason, it's a horror that you don't want to 412 00:31:55,400 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: think about contemplate, you know, go there at at any 413 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: conceivable level. But this is a real life nightmare and 414 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: you have had the courage to look into it, to 415 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: cover it, to seek out the truth around it, and 416 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: to report on it with James Patterson and the book 417 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: is called The Idaho Four where with Vicky Ward investigates. 418 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: And I wanted to ask you if you had a 419 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: sense of the journey down the rabbit hole, through the 420 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: looking glass, the portal, stepping through the hatch, across the room, 421 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: through the doorway, however you want to think about it, 422 00:32:47,800 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: of a lonely boy finds that first thread and is 423 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: welcomed into in cell culture? Is that a Is that 424 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: a way to think about it? Is it a community 425 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: of in cells? And how yes? How how do if 426 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: you're in the in cell community in the way that 427 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: I like going fishing and when I when I feel 428 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: that bite on the line right and I and I 429 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: pull up the fishing pole right? What how does how 430 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: does how does somebody from the in cell community know 431 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: when they have a bite on the line in there 432 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: and they're and they're pulling it up? 433 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 2: Well, I think typically when you know their feet when 434 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 2: somebody is lonely and they go online and they find 435 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 2: that other people are lonely too, and its spirals and 436 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 2: that loneliness very quickly. And again you're talking with young 437 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: minds that they haven't haven't necessarily yet got fully formed 438 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 2: perspective on the world, and that can very quickly. That 439 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 2: that sense of finding a community. It's easy to then 440 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 2: get revved up where it's so great to find a 441 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,919 Speaker 2: friend that you go along with a friend who says, yeah, 442 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,800 Speaker 2: and by the way, don't women suck? And it's almost 443 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 2: like you're in before you even know that you're in. 444 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 2: Does that make sense? And you know this is I mean, 445 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:48,720 Speaker 2: I will say that, you know, I've been very glad 446 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 2: to talk to both my sons in an open way. 447 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 2: I mean, some of the hardest stuff was, you know, 448 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,720 Speaker 2: along the way writing the book. One of them in particular, 449 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 2: would send me you know, hey, Mum, saw this online. 450 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 2: You might want to take a look at it. And 451 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 2: some of the material I couldn't watch for more than 452 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 2: thirty second that were deeply upsetting. But I'm glad that 453 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 2: at least, you know, both my sons have had girlfriends. 454 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's a false equivalence. But I'm very 455 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 2: glad I've been able to have that conversation, and I 456 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 2: will you know, it's opened my eyes I think to 457 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 2: just how lonely a lot of kids are these days, 458 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 2: and how as parents and as teachers in a way, 459 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,799 Speaker 2: we need to be as vigilant about that as we 460 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 2: are about someone not doing well in school. 461 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: Does the rage why latent within this young man? Is 462 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:03,280 Speaker 1: it there as a foundation of character and gets turned 463 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 1: on somehow? Is it something that comes from without and 464 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: finds its way inside of him? Where does that rage 465 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 1: come from? Do you have any sense of that? Including 466 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: just the simplest explanation is that he's evil, which is 467 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: which is something that and I don't mean that in 468 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: any type of religious way. I mean it in a 469 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 1: definitional way that we don't really talk about it in 470 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 1: a society very much, but that he's just evil. He's 471 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 1: a killer, and he, like some type of predator, found 472 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: his way on that day. Or is it more complex 473 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: than that? You have any sense of that because he is, 474 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: like you said, retained the control and the power of 475 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: his own story. 476 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I want to be very clear. You know, 477 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 2: when I talked to you earlier, on I mean, I 478 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,279 Speaker 2: was talking in general about lonely guys. I mean, I 479 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 2: think Coburger, you know, Coburger may have been lonely. But 480 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 2: but but everyone, you know, everyone who was in court 481 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 2: for his sentencing that I've spoken to, including the police 482 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 2: chief and Fat Gonzalvi's family, have said that they've never 483 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:52,439 Speaker 2: seen someone as untouched by what was an incredibly raw 484 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 2: and broad display of you know, raw emotion. And for 485 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 2: him to sit there seemingly utterly dispassionate and removed from 486 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:13,240 Speaker 2: the entire thing was I mean, the police chief used 487 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 2: the word evil to me, that no empathy, no connective 488 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 2: tissue to the rest of the human race at all, 489 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:34,399 Speaker 2: and you know the roots of that. You know, maybe 490 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 2: loneliness is undoubtedly one factor, but that goes beyond I 491 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 2: think that goes beyond emotions that most of us can understand. 492 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 2: I mean, he's in a place that I don't think 493 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,400 Speaker 2: you or I al most people can even get to 494 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 2: and wouldn't want to. 495 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 1: Again, the book is the Idaho for about the murders 496 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:11,480 Speaker 1: that took place committed against these four young people by 497 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 1: this animal. Had that been the first time you were 498 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 1: to that part of the United States, when you went 499 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 1: there to cover this. 500 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 2: Yep, I'd not been I had not been to the 501 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 2: Pacific Northwest. I'd never heard of Moscow, Idaho. I'm pretty 502 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 2: sure I hadn't been to Washington State. I had been 503 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 2: to Seattle, so one of the families had a home 504 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 2: in loconnor but I hadn't spent much time there, not 505 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 2: being to Boise, I mean, I I and you know, 506 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 2: I will say that I did fall in love with 507 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,359 Speaker 2: the people of Moscow. I mean, by the end of it, 508 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,320 Speaker 2: as a sweepstake in the town that you know, perhaps 509 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 2: I'll go back one day and join the Moscow Police 510 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:14,239 Speaker 2: Department as a detective, which I would very much like 511 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 2: to do. But I have a few other things, you know, 512 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 2: I have another book and stuff that I need to 513 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 2: have a few other things taking up my time in New 514 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 2: York right now. But it was, you know, that was 515 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:31,400 Speaker 2: that was the upside of all of this. And I 516 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 2: really hope that the readers of the book, you know, 517 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:37,960 Speaker 2: get that. I think you do. I think I think 518 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 2: you fall in love with the Idaho fall You fall 519 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,080 Speaker 2: in love with the victims. You fall in love with 520 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:47,759 Speaker 2: their friends, their families, and and and you know, Jim 521 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 2: and I j James Patterson. You know what we don't. 522 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,319 Speaker 2: Our job is just to tell the story and to 523 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 2: tell their stories. We're not here to sit in judgment 524 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 2: on any one. 525 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:00,839 Speaker 1: You know. 526 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:06,799 Speaker 2: It's a story about real people and experiencing real emotions 527 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 2: when something unfathomable happens. And I think that's why the 528 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 2: book is. You know, the book has been very successful. 529 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:21,839 Speaker 2: It clearly does touch it called in people, which is 530 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 2: which is which is what we hope. But it's because 531 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 2: you see the resilience and the love as well as 532 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 2: the inexplicable evil. 533 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,280 Speaker 1: You referenced at the beginning that for you and James 534 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:42,040 Speaker 1: Pattersonior in North Star hero is Truman Capodi's in Cold Blood. 535 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,360 Speaker 1: One of the people, uh that I know who have 536 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: who has read this book last night also compared it 537 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 1: to the Joe McGuinness book Fatal Fatal Vision about the 538 00:41:55,160 --> 00:42:02,400 Speaker 1: Fort Bragg murders, uh, committed by doctor Jeffrey McDonald back 539 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,960 Speaker 1: in nineteen back in nineteen seventy and that you know, 540 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 1: there's so much unknown even to this day around why 541 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:18,799 Speaker 1: and you know, part of adult life in how very 542 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: expedient culture is coming to the acceptance sometimes there is 543 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:31,439 Speaker 1: no answer to that question of why. But when we 544 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: look out at what's going on in the country, he 545 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:41,440 Speaker 1: is not the only monster that walks amongst us. Another 546 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 1: is a federal inmate who's incarcerated that you're familiar with, 547 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:55,239 Speaker 1: a privileged subject of his majesty, a privileged daughter of 548 00:42:55,320 --> 00:43:03,680 Speaker 1: a British publisher who becomes Epstein's Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice his 549 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:15,799 Speaker 1: procure of girls, and Islay Maxwell is getting ready, from 550 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 1: my reading of the situation, to walk out of federal 551 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:26,560 Speaker 1: prison by the hand of the of the President of 552 00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 1: the United States of America. How do you wrap your 553 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:30,800 Speaker 1: head around that? 554 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,080 Speaker 2: Well, I wish I could tell you I was more surprised, 555 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:36,879 Speaker 2: and yet I'm not right. 556 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:37,920 Speaker 1: This entire. 557 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:45,920 Speaker 2: Story from the get go has been about how soft 558 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:55,240 Speaker 2: power works have money and power and connections can buy justice. 559 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 2: I mean, from the get go that was that was 560 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:04,040 Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein's story. You could argue to a certain degree, 561 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:06,560 Speaker 2: it was also even before you get to Epstein, Gilen 562 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:10,840 Speaker 2: Maxwell's father, Robert Maxwell, got away in his lifetime with 563 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,080 Speaker 2: a huge amount. It was only when he was discovered 564 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:18,080 Speaker 2: dead in the water in murky circumstances then it emerged 565 00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:22,799 Speaker 2: his wealth was a mirage. He had stolen nearly a 566 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 2: billion dollars from the pension funds of his employees. So 567 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:34,120 Speaker 2: now that you have this extraordinary situation where Jeffrey Epstein 568 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:38,640 Speaker 2: died in strange circumstances, never paid the price for his 569 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:46,600 Speaker 2: sex crimes. Then Gilen Maxwell was convicted of being his 570 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:51,920 Speaker 2: procurer and accomplice. Now you know, I mean, it's it 571 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 2: almost feels like it's just been the awaiting game from 572 00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,759 Speaker 2: her perspective, right, the clock has ticked on and now 573 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,719 Speaker 2: and now she holds all the cards. She has the 574 00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:06,960 Speaker 2: leverage over Donald Trump. You know, he's got politically to 575 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,439 Speaker 2: give his base something. We know that she sat there 576 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:14,600 Speaker 2: for two days and gave Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche 577 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:19,239 Speaker 2: a hundred names, and swiftly, or very swiftly, on the 578 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,040 Speaker 2: heels of that, she's been moved to a cushy prison. 579 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,160 Speaker 2: So you know, I mean, I mean, now it's it's 580 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:25,960 Speaker 2: you know, I mean, you can sort of sit back 581 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,799 Speaker 2: and you know how this blaze out. She'll something that 582 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,600 Speaker 2: will be politically useful to Donald Trump will be rolled 583 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,279 Speaker 2: out that she's given him, and she will and ex 584 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,040 Speaker 2: but she you know, she's a very very clever you know, 585 00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:41,759 Speaker 2: she'll have done a deal. I mean, she's not going 586 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:46,439 Speaker 2: to have handed him information that will save his skin 587 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,200 Speaker 2: politically without having done a deal to save her skin. 588 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 2: So I mean, you know, I'm wait, I'm just expecting 589 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:54,680 Speaker 2: that at some point, you know, I'll wake up one 590 00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,000 Speaker 2: morning and she'll be She'll have left the country and 591 00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,160 Speaker 2: have been sent back to either France or England, or 592 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,040 Speaker 2: he'll commute his sentence. So there'll be something. There'll be something, 593 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:10,920 Speaker 2: and the victims will completely justifiably be stunned, shocked, appalled, 594 00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:13,040 Speaker 2: and you know, a mockery will have been made of 595 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:17,239 Speaker 2: the United system, the United States justice system, and life 596 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 2: goes on. 597 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,200 Speaker 1: Is that the end of it? Then? Is that? It is? It? 598 00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:22,360 Speaker 1: Is it? At the life? 599 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:24,600 Speaker 2: Well, I think it will be interesting. 600 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:31,239 Speaker 1: Online that because the the proposition, right is that they 601 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:39,440 Speaker 1: just got away with it. The because the because the 602 00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:44,600 Speaker 1: the final chapter will have been or it won't just 603 00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:50,600 Speaker 1: be that she's released, she'll be asserted to be by 604 00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:54,080 Speaker 1: the chief law enforcement officers of the country to be 605 00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:58,160 Speaker 1: a victim when she's a child sex trafficker. 606 00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:05,400 Speaker 2: Well, that is very very problematic for obvious reasons. She 607 00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,400 Speaker 2: wasn't a victim. I mean, it's a sad life story. 608 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,440 Speaker 2: I mean, I've said this. You know that a grown 609 00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:15,960 Speaker 2: woman at the age of thirty whose rich father dies 610 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,560 Speaker 2: in murky circumstances. Turns out he's a crook, and so 611 00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:24,760 Speaker 2: she's no longer rich, but she nonetheless as an Oxford degree, 612 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:29,120 Speaker 2: speaks many languages, has her father's rolodex of world leaders 613 00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,400 Speaker 2: around the world. The idea, you know, it's sad that 614 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:37,600 Speaker 2: somebody like that doesn't think, oh I can I this is, 615 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,880 Speaker 2: you know, tragic, but I can build a life for 616 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,080 Speaker 2: myself and a career for myself with all these extraordinary 617 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:51,200 Speaker 2: privileges and tools. Instead, she thinks, I'm now dependent on 618 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,960 Speaker 2: a different man. I'm now dependent on this guy, Jeffrey Epstein, 619 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,839 Speaker 2: who's looking after me financially. So what do I need 620 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:03,440 Speaker 2: to do to you getting a paycheck from him and 621 00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:08,680 Speaker 2: continue and make myself indispensable to him? And the answer 622 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:15,279 Speaker 2: is bringing him children to traffic and abuse. I mean, 623 00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:18,360 Speaker 2: that's just you know, that's not a victim. The story, 624 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 2: I don't think. I don't think the story ends, and 625 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:25,880 Speaker 2: I'll tell you why, because because the questions about who's 626 00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:29,840 Speaker 2: I think the scale of this is so enormous that 627 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:36,000 Speaker 2: one or two names alone won't do it. We don't know, 628 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,000 Speaker 2: you know, I mean Jeffrey Epstein's the source of Jeffrey 629 00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:44,879 Speaker 2: Epstein's wealth is so opaque at this moment. And and 630 00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,000 Speaker 2: you know, and I will the money is the source 631 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:52,480 Speaker 2: of the power. And why did all these wealthy, unnamed 632 00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:56,359 Speaker 2: people want to give so much money to a guy 633 00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:01,480 Speaker 2: with no credentials? What was the hold over them? I mean, 634 00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,280 Speaker 2: you're just You're talking about such an enormous amount of money, 635 00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:09,200 Speaker 2: You're talking about so many international connections. I don't think 636 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,280 Speaker 2: a couple of names rolled out by the Justice Department 637 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:17,279 Speaker 2: is going to sufficiently answer the questions that people have 638 00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:21,960 Speaker 2: about Jeffrey Epstein. So, actually, why my worry is almost 639 00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,359 Speaker 2: not dissimilar from the same that the Gonzalves family has 640 00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:29,560 Speaker 2: about Brian Coburger than in a sense, Helen Maxwell has 641 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:34,279 Speaker 2: now got the power she has. She has She's able 642 00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,160 Speaker 2: to tell the story that everyone wants to hear, But 643 00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:42,320 Speaker 2: at what cost, At the cost of making an absolute 644 00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,360 Speaker 2: mockery of the United States Justice Department. 645 00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:53,160 Speaker 1: I've told the story before, both in writing and I'm 646 00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:58,279 Speaker 1: worrying podcasts about a man named Abner Less, and he 647 00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:05,600 Speaker 1: was a German Jew who becomes an Israeli police captain, 648 00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,920 Speaker 1: and he is the man who interrogates Adolph Hikman for 649 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,120 Speaker 1: two hundred and seventy five hours, doesn't talk about the 650 00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:17,239 Speaker 1: experience really for twenty years, and then is asked a 651 00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,920 Speaker 1: question about did you have a takeaway from it? And 652 00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:26,040 Speaker 1: he says, yeah, yeah, I did. My takeaway was that 653 00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:30,480 Speaker 1: there are Adolph Hikmans everywhere. They're all around us, but 654 00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:34,880 Speaker 1: they're latent and harmless in democracies, but become deadly in 655 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:38,640 Speaker 1: an instant in a dictatorship of the left or right. 656 00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:43,920 Speaker 1: My takeaway is it gave me my faith in democracy. 657 00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:51,120 Speaker 1: I've a friend of mine who is a Democratic candidate 658 00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:55,640 Speaker 1: for the Senate in Texas. He was the commander of 659 00:50:55,680 --> 00:51:00,960 Speaker 1: the International Space Station. Spent two hundred teen ds and 660 00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:05,560 Speaker 1: space looking down in eight billion of us with six 661 00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:09,440 Speaker 1: colleagues up there floating above the Earth. You know, ask 662 00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,560 Speaker 1: them what is what is takeaway from the experience was, 663 00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:19,759 Speaker 1: and it was the deep sense of connection that you 664 00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:24,920 Speaker 1: can visibly see in the in the planet, which is 665 00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:30,319 Speaker 1: a living organism and perfectly clear from from space. And 666 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:35,279 Speaker 1: so I wonder with you when when you when you 667 00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:42,480 Speaker 1: go deep into these stories. Crow Burger Epstein, what is 668 00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:49,160 Speaker 1: your takeaway from this type of reporting at the well, 669 00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:49,600 Speaker 1: I know. 670 00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:54,200 Speaker 2: What you just said, you know, I everything is connected. 671 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,919 Speaker 2: You know, everything is connected, and it's and that's why 672 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,200 Speaker 2: actually having conversations like this are always so important because 673 00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:04,120 Speaker 2: you know, I get so in it. But in a 674 00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:07,560 Speaker 2: sense you do this because there is a bigger meaning 675 00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:10,360 Speaker 2: that is important for people. You know, why do we 676 00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:13,960 Speaker 2: read great literary fiction because in the end, you know 677 00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:18,640 Speaker 2: that we recognize something that in it about the particular, 678 00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:23,080 Speaker 2: that tells us something important about the universal. And so 679 00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:25,560 Speaker 2: you know, I think the battle for the control of 680 00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:30,359 Speaker 2: the narrative is an important scene to think about when 681 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,719 Speaker 2: thinking about Gilen Maxwell, I mean to pull out from 682 00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,160 Speaker 2: the day to day noise. And it's the same question 683 00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:41,319 Speaker 2: about Brian Coberger. I will you know, the flip side 684 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:43,400 Speaker 2: of this is, you know, and I've written about a 685 00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:47,680 Speaker 2: lot of corrupt people over the decades at this point, 686 00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:53,040 Speaker 2: and I will say this, you know, the flip side 687 00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:59,200 Speaker 2: of it all is that in most instances there is. 688 00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:04,640 Speaker 3: A comics that I have observed that if people behave 689 00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:12,680 Speaker 3: really badly in the end, in most cases you know, 690 00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:14,439 Speaker 3: I was at Fancy Fair for fourteen years. 691 00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:18,120 Speaker 2: I noticed this. In most cases, it catches up to 692 00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:23,160 Speaker 2: you that most people who achieve great power and who 693 00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:27,800 Speaker 2: use that power for ill, in most instances it comes 694 00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,799 Speaker 2: that bad behavior comes back to bite them. Not all 695 00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:34,760 Speaker 2: And obviously the moment that we're living in right now 696 00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,760 Speaker 2: is I think one of the things that's so unsettling 697 00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:42,040 Speaker 2: about the moment that we live in is it is 698 00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:46,040 Speaker 2: that one's looking for where is the karma right now? 699 00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:48,719 Speaker 2: It's you know, it's not readily apparent. But I think 700 00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,680 Speaker 2: that one of the things that keeps me going is 701 00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,920 Speaker 2: I think I do believe. I do believe that in 702 00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:58,400 Speaker 2: the end people people's actions catch up to them. 703 00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:03,120 Speaker 1: Doctor King said, the moral arc of the universe is long, 704 00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:07,719 Speaker 1: but it bends towards justice. Bob Marley said, never give 705 00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:13,920 Speaker 1: up the fight, and that's good advice. Vicky Ward you 706 00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:17,840 Speaker 1: can find here everybody at Vicky Ward investigates one of 707 00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:24,000 Speaker 1: the best of the best, an investigative journalist, a truth 708 00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:28,400 Speaker 1: seeker author, along with James Patterson, of the new book 709 00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:33,640 Speaker 1: The Idaho Four, which goes deep into the Terrible murders, 710 00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:40,160 Speaker 1: committed it to University in Moscow, Idaho and the colic 711 00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:44,960 Speaker 1: college town, one of the most beautiful corners of the country. 712 00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:51,200 Speaker 1: Story of brutality and innocence lost, and so much more 713 00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:56,560 Speaker 1: about what is happening in our country, beneath the surface 714 00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:59,840 Speaker 1: and above it. But VICKI thank you so much for 715 00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:04,279 Speaker 1: your time today. Really enjoyed the conversation and hope to 716 00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:05,040 Speaker 1: see you again. 717 00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:10,719 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Steve, I really appreciated your thoughtful questions. 718 00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:12,680 Speaker 1: Thank you, goodbye. 719 00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:14,600 Speaker 4: I'm Steve Schmidt. 720 00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:16,000 Speaker 1: This is the warning. 721 00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:19,000 Speaker 4: I invite you to join this community, where I promise 722 00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:23,120 Speaker 4: to be honest, blunt and direct about what is happening 723 00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:27,640 Speaker 4: in this country. America is in crisis. Follow and subscribe 724 00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:29,640 Speaker 4: to this channel and on substack. 725 00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:30,239 Speaker 1: Thank you.