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Speaker 1: Hey, folks, it is Tuesday, December ninth, and how in

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Speaker 1: the world can a murder trial in which a man

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Speaker 1: is accused of killing his wife and cutting her up

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Speaker 1: and disposing of her body. How is it possible that

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Speaker 1: trial got boring today? And with that, welcome to this

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Speaker 1: episode of Amy and TJ Robes. This isn't We don't

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Speaker 1: need the trial, is what it is. We don't need

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Speaker 1: to be entertained necessarily. But this might be an issue

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Speaker 1: for the prosecution. This might be an issue for this jury.

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Speaker 1: Today was a slow and frankly confusing day in.

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Speaker 2: A lot of ways.

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Speaker 3: But unfortunately for the prosecution, it was an important day

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Speaker 3: because they are trying to establish DNA and yes, I

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Speaker 3: know that can get technical, but it got more technical than.

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Speaker 4: It seemed like it needed to.

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Speaker 3: But they're trying to link Brian Walsh's DNA with Anna's

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Speaker 3: DNA on some specific ItemSpace.

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Speaker 1: Okay, they lived together, they were married, they're in the

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Speaker 1: same house. I'm saying there are points they were trying

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Speaker 1: to make that I didn't get, and I didn't I

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Speaker 1: didn't get rogue. Look, we have legal folks who are

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Speaker 1: helping us. We are not legal experts, but ros we

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Speaker 1: watch a lot of trials. We were like, what is

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Speaker 1: she talking about? What are they talking about?

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Speaker 2: What is happening? Right?

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Speaker 3: I know that they were able to establish although I

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Speaker 3: only know this because reading later how it was described,

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Speaker 3: because listening to the testimony as the jurors did.

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Speaker 4: We listened to it. It was confusing.

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Speaker 3: But they were trying to put together that Tivex suit

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Speaker 3: that was found in the trash can that had blood

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Speaker 3: on it. They were able to say that both Brian's

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Speaker 3: DNA and Anna's DNA were both on that Tivex suit.

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Speaker 4: But but they didn't.

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Speaker 3: Actually say it like that. No, when the forensic scientists

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Speaker 3: were testifying, they were using terms like non oavilion times

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Speaker 3: more likely to be Anna's than not. But a third

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Speaker 3: parties could be a gazillion, trillion, quadruple.

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Speaker 4: What did she say? There was like a there was

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Speaker 4: a number I've never heard of before.

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Speaker 1: There was anillion and a sex tillion. Then neillion was

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Speaker 1: the one followed by thirty zeros and there you all look,

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Speaker 1: I'm look.

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Speaker 4: How many zeros was that?

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Speaker 2: This was? It was bizarre.

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Speaker 1: I cannot wait till we talked to Alison again, triesl

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Speaker 1: our attorney. We've been talking to a criminal defense attorney

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Speaker 1: about this. She has been very critical of the prosecution

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Speaker 1: and saying they are not hitting the points they need

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Speaker 1: to hit. And you're, yes, I know it's legal in

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Speaker 1: this law, but you got twelve everyday people there that

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Speaker 1: you were talking to about sex tillions. A man killed

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Speaker 1: his wife chopped her up, and you're talking to me

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Speaker 1: about I'm trying to understand sex tillions and inclusion and

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Speaker 1: all this stuff. Okay, let me go back a little

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Speaker 1: Bit's day seven of the testimony. Yeah, let me go back.

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Speaker 1: It's day seven, right, ropes, But to your point, this

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Speaker 1: was quite frankly, it could have been one of or

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Speaker 1: maybe it should be one of the biggest days we

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Speaker 1: talk about DNA evidence.

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Speaker 3: Correct, that is linking blood from an A Walsh and

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Speaker 3: blood from Brian Walsh on things he threw away, like

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Speaker 3: a tie x suit, like slippers of hers. Uh, there

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Speaker 3: was another item that they were able to Then, yes,

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Speaker 3: the blood commingled, but it wasn't that obvious.

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Speaker 4: The way they were.

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Speaker 3: Testifying it was confusing. I was like, wait, there's a

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Speaker 3: third unknown party.

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Speaker 4: Wait what?

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Speaker 3: And then they didn't even say it's statistically overwhelmingly.

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Speaker 4: On a Walsh's blood. Yes, that would have made sense.

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Speaker 1: Robes, you just hit it, didn't Okay, we have seen

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Speaker 1: so many attorneys do that. So they're telling this jury

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Speaker 1: that this DNA there is a one and one nanillion

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Speaker 1: chance that it would be something other than this, and

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Speaker 1: it's exclusionary and that all these terms. What they're trying

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Speaker 1: to say is there is no chance in hell that

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Speaker 1: this is anybody's DNA other than on a Wae And

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Speaker 1: we never hear that.

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Speaker 3: Yes, could they say it is astronomically in favor of

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Speaker 3: this being on A Walsh's blood, Like astronomically as in,

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Speaker 3: there's almost zero chance that this is anyone else's DNA.

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Speaker 4: But an A Walsh's. Why can't they say that?

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Speaker 3: And by the way, fine, the scientist is going to

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Speaker 3: speak the way scientists speak. But as then the prosecutor,

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Speaker 3: can you not follow up and say, so, is it

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Speaker 3: fair to say that it would be astronomically unlikely for

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Speaker 3: this to be anyone else's DNA but an A Walsh's.

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Speaker 4: That's correct?

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Speaker 3: Like I needed the prosecutor to sum it up and

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Speaker 3: make it very clear and hit it home that this

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Speaker 3: was Anna Walsh's DNA, but she didn't follow up.

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Speaker 4: She would just move on and.

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Speaker 3: Say, how do you collect all the cells? Where do

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Speaker 3: the cells come from?

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Speaker 4: What?

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Speaker 3: I don't need to know that. I don't actually need

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Speaker 3: to know the scientific process by which you do it.

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Speaker 3: I just want to know what the results are in

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Speaker 3: Layman's term.

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Speaker 1: See, I don't want to argue with these legal minds. Right,

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Speaker 1: there's some things they have to cover and the process

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Speaker 1: to prove that, yes, this is done correctly and this

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Speaker 1: is how it's done. Fine, I understand, we'll sit through that.

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Speaker 1: But to your point, Robes, nobody ever put it in

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Speaker 1: context for the juror, and so as a juror and

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Speaker 1: as the observer you and I are, we are left

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Speaker 1: to put it in context for ourselves. And if you

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Speaker 1: leave me to understand what an inclusionary an exclusionary result

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Speaker 1: is based on a sex tillion DNA sample you got

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Speaker 1: that has three different different mixtures that you didn't tell

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Speaker 1: me what the other two were, What the actual hell

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Speaker 1: am I supposed to do?

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Speaker 3: You know what exactly? And I will say this, you

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Speaker 3: and I were listening to it as journalists. It's interesting

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Speaker 3: because yes we are not we're not legal experts. However,

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Speaker 3: we know what it's like to question someone, and when

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Speaker 3: someone over explains or under explains or makes a complicated statement,

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Speaker 3: it's our job then to follow up and get clarity

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Speaker 3: so that the people at home, our audience, can understand

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Speaker 3: what they just said. So we actually, although we're not lawyers,

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Speaker 3: we still have experience in getting to the point and

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Speaker 3: making things clear. And even if people speak in very

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Speaker 3: complicated scientific terms, it was our job to make it

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Speaker 3: simple for the people listening, and that often is in

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Speaker 3: a follow up question.

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Speaker 1: And the follow up sometimes can only has to be

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Speaker 1: So what you're saying is that's.

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Speaker 3: The way, and just make it, make it simple, and

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Speaker 3: then that scientist will say yes correct. In fact, the

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Speaker 3: defense has been brilliant at that. The defense, oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: has absolutely used prosecution witnesses and their complicated ways of

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Speaker 3: saying things. But what you're saying is that there's a

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Speaker 3: chance basically this and then the answer will just be correct.

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Speaker 3: So basically, now the lawyer gets to frame what the

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Speaker 3: juror hears, and the expert can just say yes or.

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Speaker 2: No to oh my god, robes that point.

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Speaker 1: He did this with a witness today, Larry Tipton, God

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Speaker 1: love him, he's got a stinker of a case. But

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Speaker 1: he is turning himself into a magician right now.

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Speaker 2: To your point. The same woman who.

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Speaker 1: Was up there from the State Crime Lab talking about

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Speaker 1: all these none million whatever it was sex Still he

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Speaker 1: got up there and said, plain as day to her,

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Speaker 1: so you can't say how or when any of this

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Speaker 1: DNA got on there. Despite the blah blah blah. She said,

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Speaker 1: that's correct.

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Speaker 3: And you know what, And if I didn't understand all

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Speaker 3: the things she was saying to the prosecution, I won't

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Speaker 3: remember them.

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Speaker 4: You know, Like, think about it.

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Speaker 3: If you are hearing something complicated, you will not remember it.

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Speaker 3: If it doesn't land, if it doesn't make you feel something,

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Speaker 3: or if it doesn't connect with something in your brain,

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Speaker 3: you will forget it.

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Speaker 4: But you will remember the.

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Speaker 3: Exchange with Larry Tipton and her because it was simple

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Speaker 3: and easy to understand.

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Speaker 2: That's simple. Okay.

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Speaker 1: You all think we are okay, we're not going overboard here.

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Speaker 1: We actually were listening closely and we were kept turning

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Speaker 1: to each other screaming like what is she talking about?

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Speaker 4: Is this a joke?

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Speaker 1: Right now?

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Speaker 2: It was really that.

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Speaker 1: So they had several folks from the State Crime Lab.

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Speaker 1: They came up and talked about the evidence that they

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Speaker 1: they were assigned and how they went about reviewing and

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Speaker 1: storing and the even the process of extracting DNA and how.

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Speaker 2: Fine you have to go through it. But this is

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about, folks.

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Speaker 1: She was the last witness of the day, right, court lady, Okay,

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Speaker 1: she was from the State Crime Lab, the boss really

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Speaker 1: of the other guys from the State Crime Lab. I'm

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Speaker 1: just reading the quote. I'm not giving the other context.

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Speaker 1: Her quote was this, The DNA profile from this item

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Speaker 1: is at least one hundred and ten sex tillion times

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Speaker 1: more likely if it originated from Anna Walsh and an

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Speaker 1: unknown individual than if it originated from two unknown, unrelated individuals,

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Speaker 1: and this provides support for an inclusion.

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Speaker 3: That is how she was speaking, and okay, entire time, Okay, fine,

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Speaker 3: that's how she speaks.

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Speaker 4: She's scientifically correct.

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Speaker 3: Now, as the prosecutors say, so, what you're saying is

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Speaker 3: it is almost overwhelmingly assuredly on a Walsh's DNA.

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Speaker 4: On that item. And then she would have said, correct, Okay.

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Speaker 2: We are not.

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Speaker 1: Look, I just needed that. We're just making sure we

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Speaker 1: are not. These are career prosecutors. They know what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: And fine, I am nothing but a lay person, and

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Speaker 1: that is who's sitting in that jury.

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Speaker 2: And I am listening to this. I've been through.

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Speaker 1: I've listened to more trials than these folks have, I

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Speaker 1: assure you. And I'm listening and going, wow, wow, Wow,

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Speaker 1: what are we doing This guy who says he chopped

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Speaker 1: up his wife but didn't kill her, who has all

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Speaker 1: these searches to say how to get rid of a

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Speaker 1: body after a murder, and you're making me question his

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Speaker 1: guilt or innocence.

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Speaker 4: I know it was. We kept we actually so that

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Speaker 4: what you just read, you all trust us.

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Speaker 3: It was that going on and on and on to

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Speaker 3: the point where like, look, if you had one or

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Speaker 3: two answers like that, fine, no the answer.

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Speaker 4: She was answering all questions.

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Speaker 3: In that exact type of way for like thirty minutes

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Speaker 3: at least. We kept looking to the going oh my gosh,

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Speaker 3: I don't even know what's happening right now.

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Speaker 4: We were so confused.

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Speaker 1: Can I give you another doozy? Yes, this is from

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Speaker 1: our witness from the State crime lab. When we do

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Speaker 1: these calculations for the likelihood rick ratio, we're relying on

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Speaker 1: the DNA profile observed and that evidence item. The more

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Speaker 1: data we have there, that means more of these twenty

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Speaker 1: six locations where we observe the DNA profile, the higher

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Speaker 1: the statistic will be for an inclusion because there is

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Speaker 1: more support and data observe. When there is limited support

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Speaker 1: for inclusion, that means the data for that contributes and

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Speaker 1: that mixture. So it doesn't mean everyone in that mixture

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Speaker 1: had less DNA, just that one had less for comparison,

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Speaker 1: so the statistic is lower because of it.

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Speaker 2: That is a direct quote.

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Speaker 4: I just that sounds like a fever dream I had

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Speaker 4: last night. What is that?

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Speaker 3: So?

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Speaker 4: Yes, that is our point. Everyone.

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Speaker 2: She's smart, that's well, oh brilliant, beautifully.

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Speaker 3: I would almost argue for this trial, too smart, I

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Speaker 3: need you to simplify.

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Speaker 4: I just wanted to actually.

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Speaker 3: In fact, there was one time when the prosecutor said,

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Speaker 3: so what does that mean? And I thought, oh, fine,

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Speaker 3: But when she answered what she meant, it was even

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Speaker 3: more so I was like, Okay, that's not working, prosecutor.

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Speaker 3: You need to actually say what she meant and ask

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Speaker 3: her if am I right? And that's the only way

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Speaker 3: because that scientist could only speak.

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Speaker 4: Like a scientist.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, folks.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the action today happened with the jury

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Speaker 1: out of the room. There was a lot of sidebars today.

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Speaker 1: There was a delayed start to the day. The day

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Speaker 1: ended early as well, and we're getting word that tomorrow

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Speaker 1: they're going to have a delayed start as well. Why

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Speaker 1: what's going on? Stay here, we'll explain and.

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Speaker 4: Welcome back everyone.

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Speaker 3: We are talking about day seven of the Brian wallsh trial,

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Speaker 3: and I feel like maybe this is the most animated

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Speaker 3: we've been because we were so annoyed by how unnecessarily

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Speaker 3: confusing most of today was. And yes, the prosecution I

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Speaker 3: think technically laid out the points it needed to, but

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Speaker 3: our takeaway was the defense kept it simple and brought

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Speaker 3: a couple of things home that really landed. First of all,

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Speaker 3: can't prove how or when any of that DNA got

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Speaker 3: on any of these items. And number two, where's the

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Speaker 3: blood they used? Incredibly sensitive and he dumped it down,

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Speaker 3: didn't get all specific about how sensitive these blood tests are.

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Speaker 3: And the fact that there were no there was no

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Speaker 3: evidence of blood in their bedroom, in their bathroom, in

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Speaker 3: any of the bathrooms near the bedroom. The only place

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Speaker 3: that police found evidence of blood was on the basement floor.

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Speaker 3: I thought that was see, that's what I remember, remember

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Speaker 3: it because it was simple and I could understand.

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Speaker 1: And you know, okay, we go back and we just

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to ask us to do this here live,

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Speaker 1: but I'm thinking back to this trial in the moments

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Speaker 1: that mattered, And another one of them that mattered was

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Speaker 1: when he got the prosecution and witness up there from

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Speaker 1: the state crime like one of those guys, and Tipton

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Speaker 1: from the defense got to him admit, yep, there was

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Speaker 1: nothing forensically significant in that bedroom. I remember that moment

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Speaker 1: like that is what the jury is going to go

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Speaker 1: in there with.

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Speaker 2: I love a.

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Speaker 1: Look that we are not making any kind of determination

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Speaker 1: about guilt or in it in the least bit. But

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Speaker 1: we are watching this thing play out and talking to

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Speaker 1: legal minds who are watching and are confused, who started

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Speaker 1: at the beginning like I wouldn't want this case. Now

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Speaker 1: they're looking at what Tipton is and how the prosecution

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Speaker 1: has handled this, and they're going, wait a minute, yeah,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute. How are we saying wait a minute? Right?

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Speaker 3: Because it's significant because Brian Walsh's story is that Anna

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Speaker 3: Walsh died while she was in bed they were going

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Speaker 3: to bed after their New Year's Eve party. He went

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Speaker 3: back down to clean up, and when he came back,

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Speaker 3: she had she was dead in the bed. So the

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Speaker 3: fact that there's no forensic evidence in the bedroom, in

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Speaker 3: the bathroom, you know, it supports his version of events

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Speaker 3: bottom line.

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Speaker 2: At least a little. At least a little.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what would the prosecution theory have to be

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Speaker 1: that all of the violence took place in the basement.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, or that he strangled her that would be

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Speaker 3: the only other perhaps, But he did Why did he

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Speaker 3: remove rugs?

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Speaker 4: Why did he purchase new rugs?

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Speaker 3: Which we saw the surveillance video that was also eerie

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Speaker 3: of him and Home Goods buying. Yeah, we saw that

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Speaker 3: surveillance video and they had some folks from Home Goods. Again,

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Speaker 3: all I can think of is we love that store.

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Speaker 3: When we were there all the time, and they were

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Speaker 3: asking what is home Goods? Well, it's a store where

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Speaker 3: you buy goods for your home, I believe, is what

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Speaker 3: he answered, which did make me laugh. But pretty much

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Speaker 3: everyone knows who what Home Goods is, and I just

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Speaker 3: can't imagine they're excited about being a part of this truck.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, didn't we plan on going.

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Speaker 2: No, that was we're going to Marshall's well, same family.

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Speaker 4: Yes, same family TJX.

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Speaker 3: He went into a description about how it is a

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Speaker 3: whole family, the series of stores and these.

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Speaker 2: Videos are they are? We kept saying, eerie to watch.

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Speaker 2: We have seen now.

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Speaker 1: We talked about all these items he went and he bought.

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Speaker 1: We had video of him behind them. We see him

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Speaker 1: putting together. By his own admission, was a that's the

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Speaker 1: better way to put it. It was a body disposal kit,

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Speaker 1: if you will.

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Speaker 2: All the items he.

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Speaker 3: Clean up after a murder kit is basically what it was.

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Speaker 3: Or he says after a sudden, unexplained death that he

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Speaker 3: didn't want to be responsible.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that crazy that we don't know if right?

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Speaker 1: There's some debate about the death of Anna Walsh, the

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Speaker 1: murder of Anna Walsh, the disappearance of Ana Walsh. I've

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Speaker 1: seen it put these several different ways, like what should

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Speaker 1: we be saying we don't know if she was.

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Speaker 3: Murdered, the unexplained death of Anna Walsh? I guess right now,

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Speaker 3: that's all we can say with certainty.

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Speaker 1: Well, today got off to a slow start. I say slow,

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Speaker 1: but a delayed start. The jury didn't get in there too,

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Speaker 1: well past half hour past when they were supposed to.

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Speaker 1: But there have been a lot of things ropes that

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Speaker 1: the judge and the attorneys have been going over.

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Speaker 2: Like a lot.

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Speaker 1: There's been a lot of sidebars in this and I

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Speaker 1: guess the next ropes is this not? And you please

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Speaker 1: explain to me. I didn't pick up on this. But

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Speaker 1: they are starting tomorrow. She told the jury they don't

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Speaker 1: have to come in until ten o'clock tomorrow normally start

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Speaker 1: at nine until ten because she has work to do

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Speaker 1: with these attorneys and some of that work has to

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Speaker 1: do I suppose robes. We talk about fast how the

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Speaker 1: lover of Anna Walsh taking the stand being the most

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Speaker 1: important witness.

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Speaker 3: This next guy, Yeah, so this is I believe Anna

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Speaker 3: Walsh's former boss but considered a friend to both Anna

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Speaker 3: and Brian.

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Speaker 4: His name is Jem.

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Speaker 3: I don't know how to say his last night Muttloo, mootlu,

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Speaker 3: but his first name is Jem and he is significant

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Speaker 3: because he was the only person outside of the Walsh family.

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Speaker 3: He was the last person to see Anna alive, and

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Speaker 3: he watched the two of them interact all evening. So look,

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Speaker 3: if the prosecution's theory is and we do know because

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Speaker 3: William fast out testified to this that he did. They

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Speaker 3: texted each other at midnight, Anna and William saying Happy

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Speaker 3: New Year, Happy New Year. I would think that the

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Speaker 3: prosecution might try to say that that's when he saw

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Speaker 3: the texts, or that's when he could have snapped in

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Speaker 3: that moment and went crazy, But it would be obviously

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Speaker 3: such a window into what led up to the New

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Speaker 3: Year and what happened afterwards with Jem's testimony. So the

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Speaker 3: judge said that he needs to be questioned first without

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Speaker 3: the jury present. I don't know why, but they said

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Speaker 3: that that needs to happen without the jury. So that's

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Speaker 3: why he was supposed to testify today and they pushed

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Speaker 3: it to tomorrow so they can do this without the jury.

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Speaker 1: So they're going to question him. So right what he

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Speaker 1: as he's being questioned? This is not an official part

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Speaker 1: of the trial because the jury's not in the room.

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Speaker 1: So are we essentially deciding whether or not I say

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Speaker 1: we the judge deciding whether or not what she hears

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Speaker 1: is going to be okay for.

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Speaker 3: The jury then to hear, yeah, there must be some

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Speaker 3: concern critical yes, about what he's going to say, and

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Speaker 3: I don't know who's more concerned about what he's going

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Speaker 3: to say, the prosecution or the defense.

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Speaker 4: I don't know, but it's.

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Speaker 3: He he saw them interacting that entire evening. If there

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Speaker 3: were if there was tension, if they were fighting, if

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Speaker 3: they seemed risk with one another, all of that will

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Speaker 3: really be super important.

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Speaker 2: Right. But what if he says they were loving and

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Speaker 2: having a good time.

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Speaker 3: Because if the prosecution says, if it happened the way

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Speaker 3: they might say it happened that once Jem left after

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Speaker 3: the New year, maybe he saw the phone and everything changed.

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Speaker 3: Who knows. But he can say how much they were drinking.

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Speaker 3: He can say how much Like all of that will matter, Folks.

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Speaker 1: Again, one of the certainly one of the most boring

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Speaker 1: and confusing days turns out to be one of the

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Speaker 1: most important and fascinating.

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Speaker 2: That's leading into the next day. This case.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we knew it was going to be a doozy,

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Speaker 1: but this is a fascinating one to watch. We're keeping

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Speaker 1: a close eye.

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Speaker 2: Again.

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Speaker 1: They don't start until ten a m. Tomorrow at least

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Speaker 1: for as the jury goes, but we will be able

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Speaker 1: to see what's happening.

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Speaker 2: I believe so. At nine am so we are on

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Speaker 2: it for you, folks. Stay here again.

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Speaker 1: Top right corner of that Apple podcast app where you

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Speaker 1: see our show page. A little button this has follow you.

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00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,800
Speaker 1: Click that and you can automatically get our updates coming

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Speaker 1: to you.

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Speaker 2: Folks.

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Speaker 1: We always appreciate you spending some time with us, and

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Speaker 1: I think you're right, Robes. I can't believe it. We

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Speaker 1: were wondering like, oh, this is gonna be a drab,

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Speaker 1: slow day. It's just DNA evidence, and now I'm well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know why it was it worked out, but folks,

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Speaker 1: we appreciate it. As always.

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Speaker 2: For my dear Amy Robot, I'm d J. Holmes. We

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Speaker 2: will be talking to you all the very very soon