WEBVTT - Using Tech for Good with Baratunde Thurston 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.800 Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio. 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:15.040 Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:19.120 Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with I Heart Radio 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:22.159 and How the Tech are Yet Today, I have a 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:25.440 special treat for you. There's a big treat for me too. 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:30.200 I got to sit down with Baratunde Thurston. He's a 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:35.159 comedian and activist technologist. On top of all that, he 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:38.720 hosts a show called How to Citizen. The show's third 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:42.560 season focused on technology's role in our world and our 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:46.880 our ability to citizen, as he calls it, and also 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:50.400 about how some really remarkable people are working hard to 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:53.800 see that technology lives up to its potential to facilitate 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:57.360 positive change. Anyone out there who has listened to tech 0:00:57.360 --> 0:00:59.640 Stuff for any length of time, y'all know that I 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:04.000 often focus on the dark side of tech, from unintended 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:09.200 consequences that can be harmful to outrighte malicious misuses or 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:13.640 abuses of technology, and how that impacts people. Well. I 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:17.319 like to think of Barrattunda's attitude as a balm for 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:22.840 the cantankerous perspective I typically have of tech, and so 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:26.520 sit back and enjoy this conversation that I had with 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:30.840 Barrittunde Thurston. You're gonna learn a lot, including some stuff 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:34.880 you might not know about me. I want to welcome 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:39.840 my guest, Bartunde Thurston, someone whom I have admired for 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:44.000 many years. I have admired his comedy work, I've admired 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:48.480 his perspective on tech, and I admire him in particular because, 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:51.680 whether he remembers it or not, he once rescued me 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:56.880 from the worst day of my professional career. WHOA welcome 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:59.440 to the show. Yeah, that good to be here, Jonathan, 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:04.800 Me about this rescue mission? I don't know about Okay, 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:08.040 I'll set the scene. It was south By Southwest two 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:11.359 thousand sixteen. It was in between you getting inducted into 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:13.959 the Hall of Fame and me trying every taco at Torches. 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:18.080 And I had been assigned to moderate a panel for 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:22.440 which I was severely underqualified to do, but I had 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:25.440 no had no option. And it was for a now defunct, 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:31.679 anonymous GEO located social networking site called yik yak, And 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:35.440 for those who do not remember, yik yak was a 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:40.240 service that allowed people to anonymously post messages and people 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:43.920 within a certain radius of that person's physical location could 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:46.919 see those messages and post their own, So I had 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:49.280 I had to submit every single question I had to 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:51.639 the two co founders ahead of time, and that made 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:53.520 me feel like I was kind of restricted in what 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:56.079 I could ask. I wasn't confident in what I could do. 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:59.840 So by the time we get to the panel, fly 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:04.200 up sweat is evident. It's undeniable. Uh. I'm sitting there. 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:06.880 There's way more people than I expected to be there 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:10.240 because this wasn't part of the official south By Southwest 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:13.160 panel uh that you would find in the other locations. 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:17.160 This was in some bar off the main drag, and 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:20.840 I get through my questions pretty quickly because I'm getting 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:25.400 monosyllabic answers and not really any follow up. So after 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:27.760 thirty minutes in an hour long slot, I opened it 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:29.520 up to the audience because I have nothing else to 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.120 go to. And I don't know if you remember, Baritone D, 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:34.360 but you were the first person to stand up and 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:40.360 ask questions, and you held those co founders accountable. You 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:44.280 you asked them about the consequences of unleashing a tool 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:49.120 that allowed for anonymous posting in geolocated areas. Uh. And 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:55.000 the potential effects that could have on populations in those communities, 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:59.560 specifically in colleges and high schools. And they gave very 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:04.280 uh unsatisfying answers. And at the end of this I 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:08.360 was shaking. I was so upset with myself. But I 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:11.520 came up to you and I thanked you for your question. 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:14.280 You were incredibly gracious, and then I slunk off to 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:17.800 hide and shame and that fueled the stress dreams for 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:20.680 the following six years, which is not even a joke, 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:23.599 but um, but I was so thankful you were there 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:30.000 because I appreciated the fact that you asked the tough 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:33.120 questions and you were you were adamant about getting answers, 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:36.680 and when clearly there were none, then that precipitated more 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:38.880 questions from the rest of the audience. You. I remember 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:40.680 there was a teacher who came up after you and 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:44.760 started asking very tough questions, and I thought, man, I 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:47.640 wish they had asked Barratt toun Day to moderate this panel. 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:51.720 It would have been a much better panel. Oh, so 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:55.520 thank you for remembering that. I actually do remember it now. 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:57.679 It was It was at a bar right off Congress 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:00.280 Street in downtown Austin. And they had to. I think 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:03.680 that had a robotic bartender, which I also recall. Um, 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:07.440 I looked up that service just to get a visual memory, 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:10.440 and yeah, it was like a yak was there logo. 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:14.520 They went out of business in tween. They literally just 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:18.400 came back. I looked it up and it was like 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:22.320 three hours ago from Yahoo News. Yeack yak is back, baby. 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:25.279 So we can do this all over again, Jonathan, We 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:27.640 can do this well this time. This time, I feel 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:31.080 a little more prepared. That was that was Babe in 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:38.919 the Woods, Deer in the headlight, Jonathan, I'm slightly better now. Yeah, 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:41.560 no joke. So that kind of brings me to talk 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.920 about How to Citizen, which is already a phenomenal podcast 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:49.080 before you got into the the specific role of focusing 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:53.280 on text role in this idea of making citizen a 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:57.560 verb and uh and this concept of becoming more socially 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:01.360 responsible and active in a positive way. And first of all, 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:04.240 I absolutely love the show, and I love the tone 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:07.960 of it, and I love your perspective. So uh, congratulations 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:11.679 and thank you for that. Well, Um, thank you, and 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:15.840 you're welcome for that. I mean, this season really is 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:20.360 uh an outgrowth of of moments like the one that 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:23.440 we shared in sixteen. I was at that south By 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:28.200 Southwest to be inducted into the Hall of Fame, Baby Baby, 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:32.320 and I gave a little acceptance speech like four minutes, 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:35.839 and I made a lot of jokes about brand activations 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:39.120 at this arts festival as well as tacos and whiskey 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.560 and beer. But I also remember saying the folks, like 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:45.760 the assumption that tech is just going to create goodness 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:47.640 in the world, We've got to stop that, and we 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:50.920 could actually be accelerating bad things in the world, you know, 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:55.080 at scale, and codifying our history and sort of forcing 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:57.920 history into our future under the guise of machine learning. 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:00.400 If what we teach those machines is all of our 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:02.960 mistakes and our biases and all that kind of stuff. 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:06.000 And and now that's that's like a common perspective, you know, 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:10.680 on tech, but in we're just kind of entering the discordant, 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:14.640 skeptical realm about what might happen with all this disruption, 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:17.840 and this season of How the Citizen is a follow 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:19.920 up to that, and it's like, okay, so what else 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:22.240 can we do? You know, what else can we build? 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:26.760 Who's out here not yik yakking all over our commons, 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:31.840 but you know, creating something, if not perfect, at least 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:34.679 more perfect and helping us be more of a union, 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:36.320 not just in the US, but kind of just as 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:39.080 human beings all over the world. So it's been a 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:42.920 I needed that season to remind me that it's not 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:46.160 all like insurrection and Nazis out there and team depression 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:49.400 and body shaming, that there is so much more good 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:52.920 we can still do. Uh and and the future history 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:57.800 is not yet written. I could not agree more. I 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:01.240 am in that same need or that positive spin. A 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:03.240 few years ago, I used to host a show called 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:06.560 forward Thinking, and the whole premise was that it was 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:11.040 an optimistic view of the future, largely through the lens 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:16.960 of technology and talking about the the promise of tech 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:19.960 or the potential of tech and through that optimistic lens. 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:23.160 And I do largely consider myself an optimist. I just 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:25.480 unfortunately I am an optimist who also feels like I've 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:30.720 been put through the ringer for the yeah and and 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:33.800 yeah you think back, like I've heard you speak about 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:38.120 this too. Like. I also was an early active participant 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:41.719 on the Internet. I was in college when the Worldwide 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:43.959 Web became a thing, and I thought, oh, that's never 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:47.040 gonna take the place of tell net. Um now that 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:49.800 Oh I want to hug you right now. I met 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:52.240 my wife through tell net. That's how That's how I 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:56.120 met my wife. Yeah, not many people know that, but yeah, 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:58.840 I met her through a tell net chat room. Uh. 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:01.880 And yeah, this I thought, the whole web thing like it. 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:08.680 Thanks forever for that page, this prompt situation, command line 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:13.440 entry Universe. The slash key is my friend. It lets 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:17.600 me do anything. But yeah, listening to that, like when 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:19.640 we cast our minds back to that and we think 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:22.720 about the potential of of what we were seeing and 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:27.559 this idea of a platform that could allow for instantaneous 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:32.240 global communication and collaboration, um, as well as things like 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:36.000 commerce down the line. Once that restriction was lifted, everyone 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:39.600 was sure that the Internet was going to solve all problems, 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:44.920 including eliminate conflict, because now suddenly there would not be 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:49.320 these barriers to communication, ignoring places like China and North Korea, 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:52.000 even if even if that problems were the old true 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:55.640 everywhere else and um, And of course it didn't turn 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:58.320 out that way, but it's not a big surprise. I mean, 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:01.640 I look now at the landscape. I look at something 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:04.800 like like Facebook, you know, not just meta but the 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:08.440 specific platform of Facebook, which is supposed to be this 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:15.920 this globalized social network that connects for parents, and well, yeah, yeah, 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:19.080 we're we're listen. You and I are of a certain age. 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:22.680 I think I'm two years older than you are. So um. 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:24.920 But yeah, I look at that and I think, well, 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:29.439 of course that didn't turn into a really you know, benevolent, 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:36.040 um useful tool that has nothing but good in it. 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:39.120 It started, or at least it evolved out of a 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:43.040 project that was ultimately about rating the appearance of female 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:49.199 students at Harvard an age old human space, which always 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:52.679 brings out the best in our species. Yes, and you 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:55.880 can't have huge expectations, is I guess what I'm getting at. 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.440 But the promise is still there, right, the promise that 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:05.000 we could have have this democratized approach that removes barriers 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:08.440 that traditionally stood in the way of people connecting to 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:11.600 each other, or people connecting to a career, or people 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:17.240 connecting to contributing to their communities. That's still there. It's 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:19.000 it's easy to lose sight of that because we've seen 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:21.880 all the bad. But I love that your podcast is 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:27.160 looking at specific cases where people are making substantive changes two. 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:31.960 Uh provide this this opportunity to actually use tech to 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:35.640 make real benefits two people all over the world. And 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:40.920 one of the the ways we've been asking that question, UM, 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:44.240 it slows down the process. Tech is often about speed 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:49.040 and efficiency and and results, but not necessarily with a 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:53.160 very clear question like results for what faster at what? Um? 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:57.440 So faster at extracting value to generate advertising revenue, cool, 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:02.360 faster at dismantling you know, social ties or respect for 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:06.920 various types of community interests. Yes, we're crushing it at 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:11.520 that UM. But if if the question is baked a 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:15.679 little differently, and it's about creating a healthy community, Uh, 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:18.120 if it's about citizen ing as a verb, which is 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:19.599 kind of the premise of our show. It's like, what 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:22.440 if what if tech didn't make it harder to citizen 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:24.840 but made it easier? Then you gotta ask what does 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:28.479 it mean a citizen? That sounds very very cool, very abstract, 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:33.160 very hard to pin down, and so we we tried 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:36.920 to define our terms and repeatedly, so citizen means you 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:40.199 show up and participate, So, like, do these technologies allow 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:43.320 people to show up and participate in their various circles 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:47.199 of community. Uh, two citizens to invest in relationships with yourself, 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:50.400 with others and the planet around you. Do these tools 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:53.119 and platforms that help us get in touch with ourselves? 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:55.720 Do they help us connect with other people in a 0:12:55.800 --> 0:13:00.280 relationship fashion, not just a transaction? Do they eliminate this 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:04.680 mythical separation between us and nature or create greater justice? 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:07.360 And the third and of the four is that it 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:10.040 helps us understand power, to citizens, to understand your power, 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:15.040 money and presence and ideas and physical strength, but also 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:19.800 communication strength and attention and in particularly you know, So 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:24.040 it does this technology strip us of our powers? Or 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:28.160 uh make us further aware of and capable of wielding 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:31.560 our power. And then the last of these four nicely 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:35.880 balanced pillars is that to two citizen is to um 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:40.679 prioritize and take account for the collective interests, not just 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.920 the individual self interests. And so if you're doing all 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:47.320 that previous stuff just for your individual self, you're finely 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:52.079 tuned social path and you could be very well funded 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:54.800 by venture capital and go up into the right on 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:57.599 all the charts, um, but you wouldn't be citizen ng 0:13:57.960 --> 0:13:59.800 you know, you'd be hyper investing in a in a 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.840 iv IT life, which has its place, but is it 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:07.200 should not take up all of of the space that 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:09.920 that we occupied together. So yeah, we found all these 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:13.520 people who are doing different pieces. We found all these 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:17.200 people who are doing different pieces of that kind of 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:21.040 citizen ing, and even with a platform like a social network, 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:24.800 building them differently, you know, with different kinds of considerations. 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:27.000 And so it's just a good reminder like, oh, yeah, 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:30.440 we got choices, you know, um, and then you have 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:32.440 to ask, you know, grace, So we have choices, do 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.800 we how much are we able to exercise them? What 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:39.440 barriers stand in between us in our ability to create 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:43.400 those types of opportunities in large scale and not just 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.800 have them be kind of cute demonstration projects. Uh. And 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:51.600 that's a tough secondary question absolutely. Uh. I. I have 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:55.640 covered many times in the past, some various projects in 0:14:55.800 --> 0:15:02.840 various stories that we're incredibly exciting, an inspirational and unfortunately 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:09.400 also momentary. Yeah, that there was no lasting effect or 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:14.480 or presence, and that um, you run the risk of 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:19.400 it suddenly becoming something performative or that someone like me 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:22.240 who covers tech for a lot starts to get really cynical. 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:25.920 When I start seeing moves, even moves that are sincere 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:31.240 and earnest in their motivations, you start to question simply 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:35.240 because you've been encountering the dark side for too long, 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:37.600 which is why I you know, I when I listened 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:40.520 to season three, which by the way, everyone absolutely should. 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:43.440 Everyone should listen to all of them. How does citizen 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:45.920 that come? But especially your audience here with tech stuff. 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:49.000 I think you know, I've listened to one of your 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.400 recent episodes about the history of like Web one and 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:53.600 Web two. Oh yeah, it was just it was a 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.080 great time machine, and so I think, you know, if 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:59.600 you like the time machine element and revisiting that, whether 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:01.720 you were as it or not, there's value to it. 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:04.160 We do a little bit of a version of that 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:07.520 in our season three and then start chipping away at 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:10.600 the assumptions about how a lot of this stuff needs 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:12.880 to work, and it's kind of this global It ended 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:16.680 up being a global expedition, you know, from Argentina to 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:21.600 Spain to Taiwan, two prisons in the United States, uh 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:25.400 and multiple cities and types of venues all around. So 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:28.000 it's very very cool. But I'll finish letting you plug 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:30.600 my podcast please contin Oh well, I was going to say, like, 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:33.480 I love how you start with an episode where you're 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:36.840 talking with your sister, which was beautiful. It was a 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:40.560 beautiful conversation in such a wonderful tribute to your mother. Um. 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:42.920 I absolutely loved it. And then you follow that up 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.680 with the what I would call the tech Stuff episode 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:49.080 of How to Citizens With with Scott Galloway, where you 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:52.760 are defining the problems uh. And I was listening to that, 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:55.040 I was like, oh, man, I'm so glad that he 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:58.760 doesn't have my job, because I would. I don't know 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:00.560 what i'd be doing right now, but he does it 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:03.120 better than I do. There's plenty of work out there 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:06.600 for all of us, man, right. And then and then 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.200 the later episodes, you know you're you're talking with these 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:15.040 extraordinary people who are spearheading incredible projects. And that's where 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:19.000 I really feel that Tech Stuff Listeners, if you have 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:21.320 been listening to me for a while and you know 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:24.679 you've you've especially with the news episodes, it's almost impossible 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.480 to avoid the dark stuff because that's the stuff that 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:31.240 tends to rise in the public consciousness. Listen to this 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:36.760 show and get involved because there are ways you can 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:41.240 do that, and it helps and it makes a better world. 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:45.680 And those are all things I want to see. We'll 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:49.119 be right back with more from Bariton day after these messages. 0:17:57.119 --> 0:17:58.840 When we look out for one another and when we 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:01.120 take actions that are not us purely in our own 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:06.200 self interest, everyone benefits, not just the individual. And that's 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:08.320 what always blows my mind is that, yes, you can 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:11.320 act selfishly, and you can act selfishly in a way 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.720 that benefits you, but when you act in a way 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:18.679 that helps others, you too benefit. Like that's an everybody 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.440 wins situation and makes you it makes you feel good. 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:25.080 So there's that selfishness um and it's it's something I 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:28.520 often forget until I'm doing it. I'm like, oh, yeah, 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:31.400 it feels good to be around others, it feels good 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:33.679 to do something with others, it feels good to do 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:37.879 something for others. And then recognizing maybe maybe that comes 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:40.960 back to me in a literal or direct way, or 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:43.159 maybe I just I'm getting high off the endorphins of 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:46.240 that kind of social hit, you know, the same kind 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:49.520 of feeling like when someone likes your posts or or 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:52.600 shares your content online. You can get that in a 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:56.520 in a much healthier way, you know, through engaging with 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.720 with our fellow humans. Uh, And then you think about 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:02.440 the sort of collective interest, like how does public health 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:06.840 really work? How does national security work? How does how 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:10.119 do cities and communities of all sizes work? We're not 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:13.240 meant to do everything by ourselves, and I think we've 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:17.080 just over indexed on the the independence strain. And it's 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:21.320 very American and then very Western, but particularly American. It's 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:26.040 like me, my house, my yard, my gun, my food supplies, 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.840 my entertainment system, my pool, my kids, my private school, 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:34.040 and this list of my my, my, my my leaves 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:38.000 very little room for hour. And it's super inefficient. Actually, 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:42.440 it's it's highly redundant, and it's really isolating and lonely 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:45.360 taken to such an extreme. If we're all out here 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:48.640 building our own you know, armies of one and cities 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:52.040 of one in societies of one, then we're losing out 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:55.399 on the benefits of even having other people around, Like 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:58.280 what's what's the point of there being more than one 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:00.640 of us? If we're all going I try to do 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:04.880 the whole job of society by ourselves. It also includes 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:07.960 a lot of denial, like you have to live in 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:13.960 denial to believe that you alone are responsible for your 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:18.360 place and and how and your well being. It's such 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:21.480 an unrealistic view that it it boggles my mind. Um. 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:25.479 I was fortunate to be raised by teachers and science 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:30.280 fiction authors, so I came to my philosophy from a 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:34.480 perspective of the sort of the star Trek view of society, 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:38.800 like everyone contributes, and everyone's important. And if you if 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:41.080 you deny that, if you think somehow that you are 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:44.520 more important than everyone else, nothing but disaster awaits you 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:47.400 and and there's there's you know, denial is a really 0:20:47.440 --> 0:20:51.080 good naming of one of the challenges of that kind 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:55.000 of thinking. I think fear is another component of it, 0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:59.480 where we operate out of a sense of being afraid 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:04.520 of others and so we must do this for ourselves 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:08.120 because we can't trust someone else to be there for us. 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:11.080 And there's reasons for the denial, you know, some of 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:13.359 us are educated to believe we are better than others 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:16.200 and don't need them. Uh, there's reasons for the fear, 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:18.400 you know. We we we receive a lot of messaging 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:21.080 and even have had personal experiences which would trigger that. 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:27.000 It's not um outlandish, you know, it's it's not inexplicable, 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:30.840 but I think it is ultimately self destructive for most 0:21:30.880 --> 0:21:33.159 of us to to live in such an extreme in 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:35.920 that way. So you find finding people in this little 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:39.000 pocket of the world who's who are asking some different questions, 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:41.760 finding some different answers and saying, okay, So what if 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:45.919 we made a social network that didn't give everyone on 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:50.840 day zero all the powers of the network at once. 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:56.639 You know what if you gradually unlocked these features over time, 0:21:56.680 --> 0:22:02.960 after being more carefully and considerately on boarded into the community. 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:06.960 What do you mean I can't just start dm ng 0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:11.200 people right off the bat and addressed millions from from 0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:16.640 the first moment I sign up. WHOA, that's that's that's thoughtful. 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:20.640 Why would you do that? It's like, okay, well maybe 0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:22.840 if you're not under the pressure of returning you know, 0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:26.520 ten x the financial investment to people who have already 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.840 hundred x the money they were born with, you would 0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:34.040 have time to consider that and build a community optimizing 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:37.880 that instead of just maximum noise. Uh and so yeah, 0:22:37.920 --> 0:22:40.480 we had this, you know, bach Rainy lgbt Q plus 0:22:40.520 --> 0:22:43.960 activists s ra Al Shaffi. She's one of the people 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:46.520 who I think everybody. It's hard to pick up favorite. 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:48.920 But just in this moment, given that you mentioned Facebook, 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:53.200 that there's more than one way. There are many different 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:56.960 ways to build networks and communities, and we've just done 0:22:56.960 --> 0:23:00.440 this copy paste thing. Uh. And Facebook in particular has 0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:03.840 just done the like copy paste thing with you know, 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:07.720 innovations from others. Um, but speed speed, speed is costing 0:23:07.800 --> 0:23:10.000 us in some other ways. And the speed of enabling 0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:15.840 people to behave in certain ways without having any connection 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:19.760 to the community they're part of. Yet it's like your 0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:23.280 first day as a freshman in high school. You're just 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:25.440 like you're running the pep rally, You're the president of 0:23:25.480 --> 0:23:29.080 the class, like you're you're in charge of discipline. Uh. 0:23:29.720 --> 0:23:34.840 That's way too much power too quickly. Yeah, I uh 0:23:35.359 --> 0:23:37.240 so much of what you say resonates with me. I 0:23:37.320 --> 0:23:39.680 think back to some of the smaller forums that I 0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:44.000 participated in early on in the Internet and how fundamentally 0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:48.240 different they were, Like it felt like a community of people. 0:23:48.400 --> 0:23:50.879 Usually it was centered around something specific which helped, like 0:23:50.960 --> 0:23:55.640 an interest and exactly a movie or a comic. Yeah, hey, hey, 0:23:55.760 --> 0:23:58.600 shout out to all my fellow former Buffy the Vampire 0:23:58.680 --> 0:24:03.400 Slayer Bronze Bers. I was part of the Bronze Um, 0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:06.040 which I also have it man revealing a lot of 0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:08.520 personal stuff on this episode, and so do you in 0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:12.880 that first episode of season three. So I think that's good. 0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:17.280 But yeah, I I completely find that inspiring. I love 0:24:17.359 --> 0:24:20.840 the idea of social networks that truly are social and 0:24:21.760 --> 0:24:27.240 build towards that and and help people avoid traps, like 0:24:27.960 --> 0:24:29.680 the fact that a lot of folks fall into a 0:24:29.760 --> 0:24:34.800