1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkam. I'm a mother of four, 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,479 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger. 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,799 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: the side, we are two working parents who love our 5 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: This is Laura. We are very excited today to be 11 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: interviewing Diane Taviner, who is the founder of the Summit 12 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: Public Schools, which is a network of charter schools that 13 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: has some fascinating ideas about education. Has done some amazing 14 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: things in terms of sending graduates to college, and not 15 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: just that, but getting them through college, which turns out 16 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: to matter as well. She is the author of the 17 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: new book Prepared, What Kids Need for a Fulfilled Life, 18 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: in which she shares how many of the ideas that 19 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 1: have been used at the Summit Public Schools can be 20 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: put into practice more broadly. For those of us who 21 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: would like to raise self directed children who can regulate 22 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: their own learning, seek out challenges, and make the most 23 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: of the opportunities they've been given. So we're really excited 24 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: about that. Well, speaking of self directed, but the first 25 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,279 Speaker 1: thing I thought about when I saw this guest's bio 26 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: and her book was tell me what to do about homework? 27 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: I feel interested. Please listen to the rest of the 28 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: part of this episode, But I just feel like that 29 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: is where I really kind of it's a pain point 30 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: in terms of how independent to let your kids be, 31 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: what the teachers expect, what even if maybe if they 32 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: don't expect something. Is there a right way to do things? 33 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: Because the goal is in my mind, is to eventually 34 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: have your kids be pretty independent with their work. And 35 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: I know that when I talk to peers, we all 36 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: say the same thing. Oh, back when I was a kid, 37 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: no one stood over me while I did my homework, 38 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: and yet I feel like I'm expected to in this 39 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: day and age. So it's a struggle. Yeah, yeah, I 40 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,959 Speaker 1: mean I push back against this as much as possible. 41 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: And I know that Diane talks about one of the 42 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: strategies they encourage in the school is appropriate help seeking, 43 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: and I think that is a great way to describe it, 44 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,119 Speaker 1: because we have definitely faced some challenges where a kid 45 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: be like, I don't know how to do this, and 46 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: I'm like, that is not my problem. If you want 47 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: to come to me with a different question, then we 48 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: can talk. If it is a specific math issue, that 49 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: we can look at it and say like, hm, I 50 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: still will feign ignorance, though I will often feign ignorance 51 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: and be like, I wonder how you could figure this out. 52 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 1: Let's see, I wonder if there's their icon Academy video. 53 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: Is there something back in your textbook earlier you could 54 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: look at. Oh, I wonder if that's related, you know, 55 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: if I can look at say is that really to 56 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,519 Speaker 1: another problem you just did? I wonder if we thought 57 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: about it a different way or it just but I 58 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, I I just keep thinking it's 59 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: I already did this grade. I'm done. I mean part 60 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: of it. And actually, I will say interestingly, I Annabelle 61 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: has fantastic teachers sincere like, yeah, I'm just so impressed, 62 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: and there's less homework. Yeah, So I don't know if 63 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: they're just doing more in school. So I do feel 64 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: like some of this is driven by what's assigned. Like, 65 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: and I'm not placing blame on anyone, but if a 66 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: teacher sends your kid home with stuff that they truly 67 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: cannot do and then are going to chastise the child 68 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: if it's not complete, like the missing link is us right? 69 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: And I've been in that position before, even though for 70 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: the most part, I've been really happy with my kids teachers. Yeah, no, 71 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: it's rough. It's hard to know what to do in 72 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: those situations, and of course it's frustrating for the children. 73 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: And yeah, people don't like homework. I'm sure adults wouldn't 74 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: like the idea of I mean, if you think about 75 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: what so much of homework is, it's kind of it's 76 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: not real practice, which is what it should be, where 77 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: you know, it's not about whether you got it right. 78 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: It's like can you do this skill? Can you do 79 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: it over and over again too? And then which case 80 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if you get it right or wrong, 81 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: like do you know the skill? That's what we're trying 82 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: to get at. But you know, like adults wouldn't want 83 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: to be like, Okay, so now you need to go 84 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: home after work and write another memo about this topic, 85 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 1: which which by the way, it's not for an actual meeting, 86 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: Like it's just so you get extra practice writing memos. 87 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: But we're not going to do anything with it. I'm 88 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: either going to say it's good or bad and that's it. 89 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: It would feel like such a waste of time and 90 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: it's you know, school. Like. The other thing is kindergarten 91 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: used to be like three or four hours and now 92 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: it's a full day in most places, and then they're 93 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: still asked to go home and practice things with their parents. 94 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 1: Like that's that's a lot for a five year old. 95 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I know not everywhere has kindergarten homework, but 96 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: I've only been in two schools and both of them 97 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 1: have had kindergarten homework. So that's that's all I know, 98 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 1: and I don't make it bring much. Well yeah, no, 99 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: I'm I wouldn't be a big fan either. Well we 100 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: have I mean, we only have half day kindergarten around here, 101 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: which is entirely different issue, which I wish they would 102 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: get themselves organized to do. That makes sense. I mean 103 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 1: from a modern day like logistics standpoint, full day kindergarten 104 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: does make sense. I just don't know that it all 105 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: has to be so academic it could be half a 106 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: day of play and half a day of work. Work. 107 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 1: Yeah cool. But so Diane's got some great ideas and 108 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: so we look forward to this interview and to sharing 109 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: it with you. Diane, thank you so much for joining us. 110 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: Can you introduce yourself to our listeners? Yes, good morning. 111 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: I'm Diane Pavner. Thank you for having me. I am 112 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: the author of Prepared What Kids Need for a Fulfilled Life. Awesome? 113 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: And can you tell us a little bit about your 114 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: career and family journey that you've been a teacher and 115 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: you're also a mom. I am a teacher and a 116 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:06,239 Speaker 1: mom and an educator for the last twenty five years, 117 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 1: and my career and my motherhood sort of weave together, 118 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: as you might imagine. My son has attended one of 119 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: my schools for the last sixth grade, and so both 120 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: parts of my life come together on a regular basis. Yeah, 121 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: I know. That's a really cool part of hearing about 122 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: that in the book. And so, Diane, I mean, in 123 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: your career with an education, one of the things that 124 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: led you to the creation of some at public schools. 125 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: I mean, you had taught in so called bad schools, 126 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: you'd taught in good schools so called good schools, but 127 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: you found that many kids still weren't prepared for their futures, 128 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: regardless of whether it was sort of a dysfunctional school 129 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: problem or allegedly functional school, but they still weren't learning 130 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: what they needed to. So talk about how this led 131 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: you to create some at public schools and your philosophy 132 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: behind your schools. Yeah, some of the public schools really 133 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: was a community effort. There was a big group of 134 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: parents that came together and they were seeing the same 135 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: things that I was seeing. That schools were either like 136 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,559 Speaker 1: you said, not functioning well for really anyone. But even 137 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,239 Speaker 1: those schools that were you know, ranked at the top 138 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: or thought to be really great, were still in a 139 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: time in an era where they were teaching skills that 140 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: aren't really needed or valued today in our world, and 141 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: they actually weren't really looking at kids holistically as whole people, 142 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: and they aren't really designed for the outcomes that we 143 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: now want as parents for our kids. Because what we 144 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: want as parents is for our kids, of course to 145 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: be economically secure and have you know, enough success in 146 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: their life where they're safe and happy. But mostly what 147 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: we want is that second part. We want them to 148 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: be happy, and schools just weren't designed to really prepare 149 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: kids for the future they're entering. And so this group 150 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: of parents came together with me and we set out 151 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: to create a school that would do just that. And 152 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: the interesting thing is you had just become a parent 153 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: when you launched exactly that same year. In fact, I 154 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: bet that was fairly week. Yeah, six weeks apart I 155 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: had my son and six weeks later we started summit. 156 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: Any I imagine that starting a school is a very 157 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: full on endeavor, as is dealing with a newborn. Do 158 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: you have any memories of what life looked like that year? 159 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: Just put that up. No, it's really it's you know, 160 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: when I think back now, it's almost I think about, Wow, 161 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: how did I actually do that. I'm sure you guys 162 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: have had that experience too. You look back to the beginning, 163 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: you're like, WHOA, I'm not sure how we survived that, 164 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: but somehow we did. It was incredibly intense, and yeah, 165 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: I think somehow as moms, we just we just plow 166 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: through and managed to do it. And I guess in 167 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: my piece, I was very lucky because both things I 168 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:02,839 Speaker 1: was doing were so important to me, and so there 169 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: was never a question of if it was worthwhile or valuable. 170 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: It was so so imperative. Yeah, can you? Oh, can 171 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: I sneak in? And I'm just curious as someone who 172 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: you know, my kids are pretty on the younger side. 173 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 1: Second grade is my oldest child. I listened to an 174 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: interesting Freakonomics episode recently on how Steve Levitt wish is 175 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,079 Speaker 1: that math was no longer taught in those schools the 176 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 1: way it is. He would prefer them to teach economics 177 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: and sort of more in statistics, especially like you know 178 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: how to understand data. So that's like one example, But 179 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 1: can you give me a few concrete examples of ways 180 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: you felt that traditional schools were failing or what they 181 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: were missing, or perhaps what they were doing that wasn't worthwhile. Yeah? 182 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: I think two big things, And the first most important 183 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: is the curriculum in most schools is not project based. 184 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: And what we mean by that is it's not asking 185 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: kids to solve real world problems and bringing what they're 186 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 1: learning together in a sort of coherent, bigger idea. And 187 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: so what you know, you guys are familiar with school, 188 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: most people are. You go into a class you sort 189 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: of especially as they get older, you have a unit 190 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: of study and it's going to be about I don't know, 191 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: the World War two or something like that. And you know, 192 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: kids sort of learn these discreete facts and information usually 193 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,079 Speaker 1: from a lecture and then a book or a textbook, 194 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: and they answer questions and then ultimately they take a 195 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,559 Speaker 1: test or maybe write an essay. And so that's kind 196 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: of the traditional mode of learning. And what you do 197 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: in project based learning is you actually start with a 198 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: really big question and ask that question, so you know, science, 199 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: and it often will include multiple subjects in that question 200 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: where you have to bring together knowledge and ideas and 201 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: concepts from all different parts of the curriculum in order 202 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: to solve a problem or in order to get to 203 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: an answer. And so in project based learning, kids and 204 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: then you're doing a real performance at the end a 205 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: performance test, so you're doing a debate or a socratic 206 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:16,559 Speaker 1: seminar or a presentation or a model or something that's 207 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: much more real world that would actually be part of 208 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: something that you know, you and I would need to 209 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: do in the course of our work later in life, 210 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 1: and really getting kids ready for that or their real life, 211 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: and so that's a big part of it. And then 212 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:35,559 Speaker 1: the second part is just really developing as people and 213 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: so focusing on what we call the habits of success. 214 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:44,839 Speaker 1: So these are everything from interpersonal relationship skills, so how 215 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: do I connect with others and communicate with others and 216 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 1: collaborate with others to my own self management how do 217 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: I self regulate? To how do I learn how to 218 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: learn and how do I learn how to set my 219 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: own goal and direct my own work in a really 220 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: thoughtful and strategic way that's aligned with who I am 221 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: and what I care about and what I value. And 222 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: so those two big parts are not really part of 223 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: the traditional design of school, No, not at all. And 224 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: one of the things you talk about in prepared you 225 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: go through a class where they were doing goal setting 226 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: and it was fascinating to hear about. I mean, I 227 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: was sort of hoping all my meetings would be structured 228 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: this way in the field, but you know that those 229 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,599 Speaker 1: students took the first minute or two of class to 230 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: be like, well, what is my goal for this class period? 231 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: How am I going to go about doing that? Then 232 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: you have like your forty minutes devoted to the goal, 233 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,199 Speaker 1: and then at the end the reflection, can you talk 234 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: a little bit Yeah, exactly, and that really is a 235 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 1: core of sort of the prepared philosophy, these three parts 236 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: where you start, we say, first of all, you look back, 237 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: so you think about where am I coming from? Like 238 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: what did I do last period? Or what did I 239 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: do yesterday? Or you know where I am I? So 240 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: you reflect on that, and then you think ahead in 241 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: this next forty minutes, in this next two hours, in 242 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: this next twenty four hour cycle, what is it that 243 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: I want to do in order to move myself forward 244 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 1: to my ultimate goal? And breaking things down like that, 245 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: and you know, when we're working with kids, you have 246 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: to start a bit well quite frankly sometimes with adults too, 247 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: as you guys probably know, but you have to start 248 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: with small time time segments at first, and it give 249 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: me fifteen minutes at first, you know, where you just 250 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: think about how am I going to purposely use these 251 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: next fifteen minutes in order to ultimately get where I 252 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: want to go based on where I am? And that 253 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: is the rhythm and the cycle that we use throughout 254 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 1: the school day in the whole entire context. And then 255 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: we take it out, you know, much further than that. 256 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,839 Speaker 1: So we have ninth graders sitting down and thinking about 257 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: four years later. Well, they can do that when they're 258 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: have to see in those like small segments on a 259 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: daily basis that ultimately add up into the same set 260 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: of behaviors, but you can make them bigger and longer 261 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: and more complicated as you practice that discipline. Yeah, and 262 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 1: I think what's great about that is that you know, 263 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: it's wonderful that you all do that as a classroom, 264 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: but any kid could also start thinking that way. And 265 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: so we have parents, you know, kids aren't going to 266 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: a summit school, for instance, who might say, exactly what 267 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: would you like to get out of your your math class? 268 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: And you can go in and think about that. You guys, 269 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: have you talk about the five power behaviors that someone 270 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: teaches kids to take charge of their own learnings or 271 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: different sort of learning strategies. Can you talk a little 272 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: bit about this? Yeah, And so this comes from everything 273 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: we do, is really comes from the learning science and 274 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: what you know, there's a whole body of knowledge out 275 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: there that most schools either sort of know about or 276 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: know a little bit about, but having't really applied into 277 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: what they're doing. And you know a lot of these 278 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: folks have written books and so parents read about them too, 279 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: But what we've tried to do is bring that kind 280 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: of comprehensively together. And so these five power behaviors of 281 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: self directed learners really come out of the mindset work 282 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: a lot of it, you know, Carol Dweck and Growth 283 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: Mindset and David Yaeger who actually worked with us on them. 284 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: And so those five behaviors are about helping kids really 285 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: taking ownership and agency of their own life and then 286 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: their own work at school. And so for example, this 287 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: includes what a lot of people would call persistence. So 288 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: it's like persisting through a challenge. And so what happens 289 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: when a child runs up against something, they're doing something, 290 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: and oh, they hit a blockade, and so what we 291 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: know is we want them to be able to either 292 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: move over that or around it or through it. And 293 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: so that persistence through a challenge is one of those 294 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: five behaviors. You know what we just talked about. That 295 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: routine of looking back and planning ahead and thinking about 296 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: how it's connected is one strategy kids would use, but 297 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: there's a number of them that they could use. Another 298 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: on the other end of the spectrum is challenge seeking. 299 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: And so a lot of kids are in school and 300 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: they're just sort of styaling it in because it's not 301 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: challenging to them. But the way they think about it 302 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: is like, well, I just do what the teacher tells 303 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: me to as opposed to really thinking about what do 304 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: I want to get out of this and how am 305 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: I going to seek out challenges because it's helping me 306 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: aim towards my goal. Another one is appropriate help seeking, 307 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: and so it's pretty common in school where you know, 308 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: kids are often and maybe as parents we even experience 309 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: this where our kids are like they come home and 310 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: they don't know how to do their math homework and 311 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: they just sort of throw up their hands and they're like, 312 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: I don't know how to do it, and basically, you know, 313 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: tell me how to do it, and then oftentime what 314 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: happens as a parent, we'll sort of get in there 315 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: to try to help, but ends up doing it. We 316 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: see this a lot on you know, science fear poster 317 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: boards and things like that, and so appropriate help speaking 318 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,479 Speaker 1: is where a student has actually really empowered themselves. They 319 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: know specifically and targeted what they need help on, and 320 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,439 Speaker 1: then they go to the right source for that and 321 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,640 Speaker 1: ask for that specific piece that enables them to get 322 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: unstuck and move forward. And so these are the types 323 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: of behaviors that people who have a lot of agency 324 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: and who really consistently are able to meet their goals 325 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: and perform engage in. And so these are the types 326 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: of behaviors that we're working on every single day in 327 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: the course of regular classes and the mentoring relationship with 328 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: our students to build those skills, because their habits they 329 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 1: take a long time to build. Yeah, well, I love 330 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: you just mentioned the mentoring relationship. You talk a lot 331 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 1: of and prepared about mentoring rather than directing, and to 332 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: learn this kind of in your own parenting journey too. 333 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: I really appreciated the anecdote about your son's kind of 334 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: crappy thank you note he wrote about the chaperone of 335 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: one of his trips. Can you talk about that and 336 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 1: how you guys work, Yes, yes, definitely. So, Like I'm 337 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 1: sure many moms who want their children to be grateful 338 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: and express thankfulness to people who do great things for them, 339 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: I wanted my son and a thank you note to 340 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,159 Speaker 1: this wonderful woman, Leela, who he's done on this incredible 341 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: trip with which is such a powerful experience for him. 342 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:40,479 Speaker 1: And so he didn't want to do it, didn't want 343 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: to do it. I was sort of nagging him, and finally, Okay, 344 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: he did it, and he came back and showed it 345 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 1: to me. It was like one sentence of like dearly alas, 346 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: thank you for the night, exciting trip, or something terrible 347 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: like that. You know, in the moment, what I wanted 348 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 1: to do, quite frankly, was like yell at him and say, 349 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: you know, why do you think this is able? And 350 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: sometimes it would just be easier. I could have just 351 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: resorted to basically writing it out for him and making 352 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 1: him copy what I wrote, but neither of those would 353 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: have helped him grow, and so I tried to connect 354 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 1: it to his own goals. So I knew that he 355 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: was working on he loved like creative writing. I knew 356 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: he was working on some creative writing at school and 357 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: trying to get better, and so I just called back 358 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: to that and said, you know, what's your standard for 359 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: your writing? And we had this whole conversation that is 360 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 1: much more like a mentoring or coaching conversation, where I 361 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: was asking him questions about what he wants. And he 362 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: had also told me that he really appreciated Leland. So 363 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: we talked about that, and I just helped him, see, 364 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: how is she going to get that from this one sentence? 365 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: And don't you want her to know that? That's what 366 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: you told me? And when he realized is that and 367 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 1: the meaning of this it wasn't me just being mean 368 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: and making him stop playing and write a note, but 369 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: the actual purpose of it. He was willing to engage 370 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: and came back with a significantly improved and actually meaningful 371 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 1: note for her. And so I just thought, I think 372 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: about that as a parent, where we're tired, and we're busy, 373 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,479 Speaker 1: and we know what because they're supposed to do, and 374 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: it can just be exhausting to try to get them 375 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 1: to do those things. And if we can pause for 376 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 1: a moment and key into what do they want and 377 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: what are their goals and how do we help them 378 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: match their behaviors with their own goals and motivations as 379 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: opposed to ours, that ultimately will lead them to engage 380 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: in a way that is much more probably consistent with 381 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: what we want, but also you know, meaningful for them 382 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 1: to develop those skills that they need to develop. Hey, listeners, 383 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 1: one of the best parts of the holidays is connecting 384 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: with family. 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From somebody who knows all this 428 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: research on education and how children learn and how they 429 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:30,959 Speaker 1: I think, you know, if you get through this real 430 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: brick of allowing children to fail small that's the phrase 431 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:41,360 Speaker 1: I took for that. So talk about how this cooking journey. Yeah, 432 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: well it started when he was about thirteen, and my 433 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: husband and I started thinking about, you know, like a 434 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: lot of parents, wow, it's only five years until he leaves. 435 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: And you know, sometimes I don't know about you, but 436 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: I got nervous. I was like, oh my gosh, how 437 00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: is he going to be able to take care of 438 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 1: himself when he leaves? You know? And one of the 439 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: things that we were thinking about was how, you know, 440 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: how was he going to eat in a healthy way? 441 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 1: And we're really sort of obsessed with you know, healthy, 442 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 1: good food, and so we thought to ourselves, well, you know, 443 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: cooking something that you practice my husband and I learned 444 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,479 Speaker 1: over many many years, and so what if we just 445 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: asked him to make dinner one night a week, and 446 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: you know, he always had opinions about what we were 447 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 1: eating and some things he liked better than others, and 448 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: so we turned it into this opportunity where he sort 449 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 1: of got to control dinner one night a week, and 450 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,640 Speaker 1: but not like completely. We tried to really start with 451 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,199 Speaker 1: a sort of curated experience to set him up for success. So, 452 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: you know, I pulled out a bunch of recipes that 453 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: were fairly simple, kind of beginning, cook a small number 454 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 1: of ingredients that would probably be something he would be 455 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: interested in, and he would pick from that and then 456 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: we you know, figure out the ingredientments and they would 457 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,399 Speaker 1: be on the shopping list of the week, and then 458 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 1: he had his night that he would And it took 459 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: my husband and I quite a long time for us 460 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 1: to figure out our role in his learning, because at 461 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: first he didn't really know anything. You know, cooking could 462 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: actually be dangerous. You can cut yourself, you can burn things, 463 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 1: you know, all sorts of things. And when he first 464 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: started getting in there, we hadn't really been thoughtful about 465 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,120 Speaker 1: how we would engage and so before you'd know it, 466 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: you know, we're in the kitchen with him, and then 467 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: we'd taken over and we're starting to do it, even 468 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: though we intended to show him how to do it, 469 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: and we had a number of false starts where we 470 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: were doing what Terence Austen do, which is trying to 471 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: prevent him from jailing, and quite frankly, I think we 472 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: were we wanted we expected dinner to be as good 473 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 1: as we would make it and as quickly as we 474 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: would make it right out of the gate, which was 475 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 1: just an unreasonable expectation, and that usually ended up us 476 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: just taking over and he wasn't learning anything. And so 477 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: we finally had to sort of sit down have a 478 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 1: reset about how are we going to actually teach him 479 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: the thing we want him to learn, which is how 480 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: to cook. And so we set up some rules. We 481 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 1: required ourselves to stay on the other side of the counter, 482 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: so we're in the kitchen, but we weren't in his space. 483 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,199 Speaker 1: We would, you know, keep an eye out and observe, 484 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: but we'd be doing something else, so we weren't one 485 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: hundred percent focused on him. When he you know, got 486 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: stuck or had issues and he would ask us, we 487 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 1: would verbally help him. Very rarely would we demonstrate, but 488 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: sometimes we would, but we'd have him sort of hand 489 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 1: the thing over to us so we could do it 490 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: on the other side to show him something, so we 491 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: weren't taking over. So a bunch of steps like that 492 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: that enabled him to really begin to practice. And the 493 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: truth of the matter is like what he made took 494 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: all lot longer than if we were making it, and 495 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,360 Speaker 1: what he made wasn't as good as if we had 496 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:02,679 Speaker 1: made it, and the kitchen was significantly messier on those nights, 497 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: but over time it got better and better. And what 498 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,239 Speaker 1: I think we had to realize for ourselves is, you know, 499 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: we had to let go of some of those expectations 500 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 1: of kind of high quality perfection right out of the 501 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: gate in order for him to actually learn and develop 502 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,479 Speaker 1: the skill. And it really made me reflect as a 503 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: mom about how many things in our lives do I 504 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,199 Speaker 1: want to sort of be if you will, perfect or 505 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: at my standard, where I end up taking over and 506 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: doing it because I want it my way, and as 507 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: opposed to letting the child actually have the moment of 508 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 1: the little small failure and trying it and then us 509 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,360 Speaker 1: talking about that and then learning from that, because that's 510 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 1: the only way that you end up learning and growing, 511 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: and so it's been a really powerful experience for all 512 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: of us and a big awakening for me from the 513 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: mom on side over to the educator's side of what 514 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: does that actually look like in school as well, because 515 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: oftentimes people now have this idea of you need to 516 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 1: let kids fail, but they wait till these giant, high 517 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: impact moments, whether it be a course or a giant 518 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: test or you know, the internship or something as opposed 519 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 1: to finding those small moments where the learning can really 520 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: happen and the stakes aren't so high that doors of 521 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: clothes for the future for your child. Yeah yeah, Now 522 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: we've we've heard that from a few guests in the 523 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: past that you know, maybe the college application is not 524 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: the first time you allow your child to faire direct 525 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: correct exactly. But this leads me to my next question 526 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: on homework, which is an issue we hear from a 527 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: lot of our listeners. You know, even kids who are 528 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: younger than the kids would be in the summit sort 529 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: of high schools and all that, but a lot of 530 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: parents really struggle with how to deal with homework, and 531 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: sometimes it's that their children are getting a lot of it. 532 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: Some of it is seemingly by design the children cannot 533 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: do by themselves, or there's just so much of it 534 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: that it's overwhelming for a child who's like seven eight 535 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: years old. So how do you recommend parents deal with homework? 536 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: I mean, is this a place where you can sort 537 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: of say, yeah, you do you and a small fail 538 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: on this? I mean, should you have conversations with teachers 539 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: if it seems to be too much of it or 540 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: outside their level? Just how as an educator would you 541 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: recommend people deal with this? Yeah, this is in fact, 542 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: the conversation about homework was the conversation with my girlfriends. 543 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: Is the conversation that prompted me to ultimately decide to prepare. 544 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: It is such a common stress point in families and 545 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: for kids, and quite frankly for teachers too. And this 546 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: is where I think we are not working collaboratively at 547 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: home and at school, and I think there's a lot 548 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: lot of like disconnect and misunderstanding there. And so let's 549 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: talk on two levels. One just me as an individual 550 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: parent dealing with my own child, and then two sort 551 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: of bigger picture, how do we collectively work together to 552 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: maybe make this homework situation a little bit better. So 553 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: let's start with the individual parents. This is a place 554 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: where if I think we as parents, like the cooking 555 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: example I just gave, we have to figure out what 556 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: our role is and it can't be doing the homework 557 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: for our children and so, and homework is sort of 558 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: the lowest stakes moment at school, I do think, where 559 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: there's opportunity for failing in order to learn. And so 560 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: I think as parents, one of the things that we 561 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,959 Speaker 1: can do is we often have in our mind the 562 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: best moment and the best way for our kids to 563 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: do their homework. And one of the things I learned 564 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: as a mom from my own son when he was 565 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: in elementary school is I had made all these assumptions 566 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: that were not consistent with how he viewed homework. And 567 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,719 Speaker 1: it was a really humbling experience to discover that, you know, 568 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: he was really resentful of having to do work at home. 569 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: He didn't understand why, he didn't understand the purpose of 570 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: the work that he was being asked to do. He 571 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 1: felt like, in his mind, school was school and home 572 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: was a time where he got to be with his 573 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: family and play with his toys and play with his friends. 574 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: And he was very frustrated that that sort of school 575 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: came and interfered with that, and so when I was 576 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: expecting him to come right home and do his homework, 577 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: because in my mind it was like, that's the smart 578 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: thing to do and then you have the rest of 579 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: the evening. He was really angry about that, and quite frankly, 580 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: had been sort of trying to focus and sit all 581 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: day and didn't have the ability to come straight home 582 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: and do that. And so I had to really spend 583 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: some time talking with him about, you know, why you 584 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: would do homework and what parts of it made sense 585 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: to him and didn't, And then we ended up haining 586 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: to go and talk to the teacher about that. And 587 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,719 Speaker 1: then the teacher had all these perceptions as well, and 588 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: for example, when he wouldn't do the homeworks, he would 589 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: make him stay in for a recess, which is a 590 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: common thing teachers do, which was the worst possible thing 591 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: for him because he needed that time to be out 592 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: and moving around in order to be able to focus 593 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: in class. So we were doing all the wrong things 594 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 1: and it wasn't until we actually talked to him about 595 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: it and understood it. And one of the strategies I 596 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: share in the book around that is the five Whys, 597 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: and it's basically you don't often get the real answer, 598 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: and the first to go around when you ask why, 599 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: you have to keep asking why and why and really 600 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: be quiet and listen to get to the bottom of 601 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: things and then be able to work with your child 602 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: in order to come up with something that works for 603 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: both of you. And so I guess my very specific 604 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 1: advice would be like, if your child is not coming 605 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: home and able to do their homework consistently, like you 606 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: have to get to the bottom of what it is 607 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: for your child, and it's probably a combination of a 608 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: whole bunch of things that will include working with the 609 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: teacher around that to make sure this is actually meaningful 610 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: and working and impactful and makes sense. And what I 611 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: would say on that sort of jumping to the higher 612 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: level is when you talk to teachers, most of them 613 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: feel pressured to a sign homework by parents, believe it 614 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: or not. And there is sort of this mental model 615 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: of good teachers who are quote rigorous a sign homework, 616 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: like that's what you do. But the reality is most 617 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: of the homework that gets a sign in this country 618 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: is not actually appropriate for independent student practice and or meaningful. 619 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,719 Speaker 1: And so kids are smart and they know when something 620 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 1: isn't impactful or meaningful or useful to them, and they 621 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: resent that and they don't like that, and it's really 622 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: getting a signed so that the perception of parents will 623 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: be that they're child's in a good classroom with a 624 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: good teacher at a good school that expects this of them. 625 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: But when that sort of escalation happens, before you know it, 626 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,839 Speaker 1: it becomes work that only parents can do, and then 627 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: we get into this terribly vicious cycle between schools and families. 628 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 1: And so I think we all need to sort of 629 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 1: take a step back in a bit of a timeout. 630 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,319 Speaker 1: And I think that starts in the individual relationships, but 631 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: then we need to think more globally about that as well. Yeah, 632 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: that's great advice, and it's still hard to do in 633 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: practice because there's so much pure stuff surrounding this, Like 634 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: I I'm sure you're aware that, like many classes have 635 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: like a what's up group of all the parents, and 636 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: I've just I have started just ignoring it. Like if 637 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: people start debating, you know, the right answers to the 638 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: second grader's homework that the parents can't figure out on 639 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,320 Speaker 1: that right, what does that one will be wrong tomorrow? 640 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm looking at this, but it's tempting or 641 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: you feel like you're doing something wrong as a parent 642 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: if you choose completely engage. So I like that. I 643 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 1: like that you're reminding us that you know there there 644 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 1: could be like a plan c. You know, it doesn't 645 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: have to be do everything the teacher says, do none 646 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: of it, like you may you may have to ask 647 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: yourself why and maybe delve up the right kind of 648 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: you know, or balance for each child. And maybe what 649 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 1: parents don't realize in that moment is when the second 650 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: graders come back with homework where the answers are all 651 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: right because the parents have figured it out, what does 652 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 1: the teacher see? The teacher sees all the right answers right, 653 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,280 Speaker 1: and so the teacher is just going to keep doing 654 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 1: the same thing because what the teacher is seeing it 655 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 1: winds up and say, okay, well this is working right. 656 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: And so I think this is where it is really 657 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: incumbegous on us as parents who are at home who 658 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: see what's happening, actually make sure that the student is 659 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: doing the work, because that is the feedback to the 660 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 1: teacher about the appropriateness of the homework. And if we 661 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 1: just come in and compensate, then the whole thing just 662 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: keeps viraling and escalating. You're right, it is one of 663 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: the most challenging topics we have in education. Yeah, well, 664 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: it's always difficult to keep our eyes on the end 665 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 1: goal versus in the moment what seems easiest. And so 666 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: that was one of the really cool things about reading 667 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: prepared and hearing the story of sum at public schools 668 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 1: and how it you know, what it looks like when 669 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: people completely rethink that. So, Diane, we always end our 670 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: interviews with a love of the week, which is just 671 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: something that is really cool for us at the moment, 672 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: and so we can go first, so you can have 673 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:02,840 Speaker 1: a moment to great. So you know, one thing I 674 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,839 Speaker 1: have actually enjoyed doing is our middle schools and high 675 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 1: schools use power School Portal, which probably a lot of 676 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 1: systems use, so you can see that teachers will post grades, 677 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: they'll post you know, test scores, homework completion, all this, 678 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: so you can go in and I will not look 679 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 1: at it except with my son. So I'm never going 680 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: to look at it except you know, if he and 681 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 1: I are standing there to gather. It's usually because at 682 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 1: this point, because he's asked me to look at it 683 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: because he wants to share something with me. And I 684 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 1: have also said that I will never start by like 685 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: looking at the lowest grade, that that is not allowed 686 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: to lead with that that. But I'm you know, it's 687 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: I've had to put guidelines on myself for using it, 688 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 1: but now that we have it, I really appreciate it 689 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: because it opens up the opportunity to talk about grades. 690 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 1: So I do like the system. I think obviously it 691 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 1: could be very easily, but I am enjoying having that access. 692 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: So that's something that I think is really cool right 693 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: now right cool mine is also I decided to go 694 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 1: school themed as well. But I do appreciate when the 695 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 1: teachers use the apps that make it very easy to 696 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:22,320 Speaker 1: communicate with them. And I've used both remind and class Dojo, 697 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: depending on which teacher it is, and I'm always respectful, 698 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,959 Speaker 1: like I don't expect to like get an answer from them, 699 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 1: you know, immediately if I send it, And sometimes I'll 700 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: even write that like respond when you get a chance, 701 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 1: totally non urgent whatever. But they seem to check that 702 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: more reliably than they check email, and it will even 703 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: work for a quick line like today they send out 704 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: an email because the aftercare program is closed, so they 705 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: wanted to know where the kids were going. And I, 706 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 1: while we were recording this podcast, was able to just 707 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,240 Speaker 1: say he's going to be in the pickup line today 708 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 1: and she already responded back. So, yeah, those apps are great, 709 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: and I think the teachers are very good about like 710 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 1: you know, they don't look at them when they're not 711 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: and they're busy with the kids. Right, great, Well, thank 712 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 1: you for the opportunity. It's such a great idea. And 713 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:13,400 Speaker 1: here's what I'm loving this week. We have started this 714 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 1: community of who we're calling prepared parents. So there's a 715 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: lot of parents in the world who want to be 716 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 1: active and engage and help their kids develop and are 717 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,359 Speaker 1: doing the best they can, and they're really busy, and 718 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: they need short kIPS and quick advice, and they need 719 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,280 Speaker 1: reinforcement for the good choices they're making, and they need 720 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,719 Speaker 1: you know, examples and models in a community that's supportive. 721 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,759 Speaker 1: And a colleague and friend of mine has launched this 722 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,760 Speaker 1: amazing website, Prepared for Success dot org that is about 723 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: that community of parents and has really pragmatic, quick like 724 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: five minutes tips and ideas for parents who are interested 725 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,359 Speaker 1: in parenting this way, and I'm loving the stories on 726 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,600 Speaker 1: that site and the parents how they're engaging and collaborating 727 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 1: with each other and trying to put these practices into 728 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 1: daily life. Wonderful. Well, Diane, thanks so much for joining us, 729 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 1: and our listeners will need to check out her book Prepared, 730 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,280 Speaker 1: which tells both the story of the Summit public schools 731 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,320 Speaker 1: and has great tips that parents can use to help 732 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: mentor their children and help them become the sorts of 733 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 1: people that we want them to be. So thanks so much, Diane, 734 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 1: Thank you, Diane, thank you both. I appreciate it. All Right, 735 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 1: that was fascinating. I feel like now I have at 736 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: least a little bit of groundwork in terms of my 737 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 1: future approach to homework. I don't know about you, but 738 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: we can move on to our Q and A. All right, 739 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:51,759 Speaker 1: so I will read the question from listener A. My 740 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 1: friend group includes three babies, now, mine being the most 741 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 1: recent edition. One couple seems to think my husband and 742 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 1: I are the perfect option for babysitting. Now. It seems 743 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 1: they think we can trade evenings, which is fine, except 744 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: that I don't want to be a babysitter and I 745 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 1: am perfectly happy hiring someone rather than expecting my friends 746 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,240 Speaker 1: to take turns with me. Am I being too harsh? 747 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 1: How do you say no when a friend expects you 748 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,319 Speaker 1: to be their childcare option on nights and weekends. This 749 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:17,759 Speaker 1: couple also has family in the area that they use 750 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,879 Speaker 1: for babysitting and daycare as well. I know they don't 751 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:22,879 Speaker 1: mean any harm and they would be happy to watch 752 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 1: our daughter too. I just have issues with using friends 753 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 1: in this way, especially if I haven't actually agreed to 754 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: the arrangement. Yeah, I mean, I thought this is a 755 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 1: kind of fun question. There's people have different kind of 756 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,840 Speaker 1: philosophies in ways they approach life, and there's certain things 757 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,800 Speaker 1: that I mean, if you are trying to save money, 758 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,400 Speaker 1: for instance, and you have a broad social network, this 759 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,399 Speaker 1: can be a great option. And in fact, if somebody 760 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,720 Speaker 1: wrote this question the opposite way to me and said, well, 761 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 1: we just don't have the money for date night, but 762 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 1: we're trying to stay connected as a couple, what can 763 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 1: we do? I would suggest something like this. You know, see, 764 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 1: if you have have peers, friends, neighbors that you can 765 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,960 Speaker 1: swap with, and that can be awesome. And it may 766 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,239 Speaker 1: just be that this couple has such an extended network 767 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 1: that they just don't even think in terms of like, 768 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 1: you know, paid childcare, and so in their minds you 769 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,440 Speaker 1: always ask a friend or neighbor that should be your 770 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 1: first choice. Right that may not be your sort of 771 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: way you grew up or the philosophy, and in your case, 772 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 1: you just like the straightforward paying somebody exchanging money for 773 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,360 Speaker 1: goods and services, which is also a great approach to 774 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:35,040 Speaker 1: making these things happen. So I mean, I think that 775 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:39,800 Speaker 1: you could compromise if you wish to. You could say 776 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,400 Speaker 1: that you would do it, maybe like once a month 777 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,960 Speaker 1: you guys would swap. That might be somewhere that you 778 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,279 Speaker 1: could sort of cement those social ties and yet not 779 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 1: feel like you are always the Friday night babysitter because 780 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 1: you don't actually want and every Saturday night babysitter or 781 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: whatever they're willing to trade off with you. You could 782 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,360 Speaker 1: also sort of proactively invite them for stuf that you 783 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: do together as a family, so that way you are 784 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,760 Speaker 1: nurturing those social ties, but there's no sort of question 785 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,840 Speaker 1: of swapping kids for it, or you know, couples only things, 786 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,560 Speaker 1: and so then you're not available for each other as 787 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,319 Speaker 1: sitters because the two of you as a couple are 788 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,440 Speaker 1: doing stuff together. But you also can can sort of 789 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,719 Speaker 1: imply that you wouldn't be the right people to do this. 790 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:23,399 Speaker 1: I mean, one thing, you could just be you know, 791 00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,359 Speaker 1: your your schedule, yours and your spouse's schedule has been 792 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,359 Speaker 1: really unpredictable because of maybe extended family issues or work, 793 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 1: and you'd just hate to, you know, leave them hanging, Like, 794 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:34,360 Speaker 1: do you think this would be really rough on the 795 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,080 Speaker 1: relationship if you, you know, were not able to watch 796 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,600 Speaker 1: their baby some night when they were expecting you to. 797 00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:42,960 Speaker 1: And I think that's totally legitimate, Like you, that could 798 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,080 Speaker 1: be a very rough part of the friendship if you 799 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,560 Speaker 1: had to not do it. So why don't you just say, like, yes, 800 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:49,239 Speaker 1: there will be times we can't do it, And so 801 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,480 Speaker 1: I think you probably want to seek out a different solution. Yeah, 802 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,080 Speaker 1: if somebody, I mean, I like my mind was even 803 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,479 Speaker 1: blown by this, I'm going to come up much more 804 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,239 Speaker 1: like harsh than you did. I just think, like, who 805 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 1: would make that assumption without a discussion. I totally think 806 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,480 Speaker 1: it's great to arrange that kind of swap if that's 807 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:11,319 Speaker 1: what everybody wants to do, But I wouldn't even necessarily Look, 808 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,239 Speaker 1: I'm a Board certified pediatrician, and I still don't really 809 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,279 Speaker 1: want the responsibility of watching somebody else's baby, not because 810 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,880 Speaker 1: I think somebody will happen to them, but like, especially 811 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:21,760 Speaker 1: we're talking about young babies here, like are they gonna 812 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:23,600 Speaker 1: cry for hours on ed? And then I'm gonna be 813 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,000 Speaker 1: like oh with the mom when I know would they 814 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:26,640 Speaker 1: not want to? Like my head is like I just 815 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:33,600 Speaker 1: cannot really wrap my head around wanting to do this 816 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,160 Speaker 1: or maybe my friends. I just can't imagine anybody asking 817 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:41,359 Speaker 1: for this. So you've hosted playdates for older children. It's 818 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,799 Speaker 1: not that you not watching it, and I don't mind 819 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: doing that at all, but that's like on my turns, 820 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,880 Speaker 1: like I invite them for a playdate, not like I mean, 821 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:51,719 Speaker 1: if somebody asked me for help you write with an 822 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:53,319 Speaker 1: older kid, it would be a lot different thing. But 823 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,080 Speaker 1: the idea of like standing over someone's baby and putting 824 00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,680 Speaker 1: somebody else's baby to bed, like, I just feel like 825 00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:00,080 Speaker 1: I have a hard enough time. I don't know, Oh, 826 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm just I'm coming off as terrible 827 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,719 Speaker 1: as I answer this question. But I guess this is 828 00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,560 Speaker 1: to say that it's not everybody's cup of tea to 829 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: watch other people's children, and I hope that that friend 830 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 1: would respect that, and I would hope that you could say, like, 831 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,000 Speaker 1: right now, that's you know, when I have a break 832 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,360 Speaker 1: from when I want to take a break from babies, 833 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:20,919 Speaker 1: I want to go out, and then when I want 834 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 1: to be with my baby, I want to be able 835 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:23,880 Speaker 1: to focus on my baby and not worry about an 836 00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:28,320 Speaker 1: additional baby. So now is probably not the time for this. However, 837 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,680 Speaker 1: we'd love to have you guys over for a playdate, dinner, 838 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 1: bring your baby, we can all hang out together. Like 839 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,520 Speaker 1: you don't want to sever the friendships, maybe maybe it 840 00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:39,800 Speaker 1: makes sense to organize some more group activities that involve 841 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,040 Speaker 1: the kids that would make them feel like they can 842 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,960 Speaker 1: have some adult time where they're also present around their kid. 843 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,000 Speaker 1: Maybe you could recommend some babysitter so that they get 844 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,880 Speaker 1: the hint like, oh, I have this fantastic No, seriously, 845 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,880 Speaker 1: especially if you're comfortable sharing, great babysitter RECs are gold. 846 00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:59,400 Speaker 1: And so if someone does share that kind of thing 847 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,800 Speaker 1: with me, I'm usual like, wow, that was really really nice. 848 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,640 Speaker 1: So I don't know, I just don't think you should 849 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,160 Speaker 1: feel pressure, especially in this time after you've had a baby, 850 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,920 Speaker 1: that's a stressful time for you as a couple. If 851 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,400 Speaker 1: you want to do this, great, If you don't, please 852 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:17,040 Speaker 1: give yourself permission to opt out. All right, good advice, 853 00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,520 Speaker 1: All right, Well, this has been best of both worlds. 854 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 1: We've been interviewing Diane Tavner, the founder of sum at 855 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,440 Speaker 1: Public Schools, and we will be back next week with 856 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:30,240 Speaker 1: more on making work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. 857 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,560 Speaker 1: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com 858 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,440 Speaker 1: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can 859 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:41,759 Speaker 1: find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has 860 00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:45,080 Speaker 1: been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us 861 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,480 Speaker 1: next time for more on making work and life work together.