WEBVTT - Ashlen Hilliard - The Evolution of Cult Intervention Practices

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<v Speaker 1>If you have your own story of being in a

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<v Speaker 1>cult or a high control group.

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<v Speaker 2>Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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<v Speaker 2>that you'd like to share.

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<v Speaker 1>Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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<v Speaker 1>four seven eight six trust.

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<v Speaker 2>That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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<v Speaker 1>Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

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<v Speaker 1>gmail dot com.

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<v Speaker 2>Trust me, trust me.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm like a swat person.

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<v Speaker 4>I've never lied to you.

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<v Speaker 2>I never If you think that one person has all

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<v Speaker 2>the answers, don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about

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<v Speaker 2>cults extreme belief in manipulation from two interveners who've actually

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<v Speaker 2>experienced it. I said that very weird. I won't pretend

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<v Speaker 2>I did it. I'm Lola Blanc.

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<v Speaker 4>And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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<v Speaker 2>And today our guest is Ashlyn Hilliard. She's a cult

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<v Speaker 2>interventionist and founder of organization People Leave Cults, and she's

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<v Speaker 2>going to talk to us about her path to working

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<v Speaker 2>in cult intervention and recovery, her personal religious experience that

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<v Speaker 2>led her to this work, and how being around Mormons

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<v Speaker 2>and Utah interestingly woke her up, how she defines a

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<v Speaker 2>cult and why throwing around the accusation of cult isn't

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<v Speaker 2>always helpful.

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<v Speaker 1>She'll tell us how cult intervention is different today than

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<v Speaker 1>it was in the seventies, how it used to involve

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<v Speaker 1>kidnapping and unethical practices, and how the modern version of

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<v Speaker 1>cult intervention that she practices under the guidance of former

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<v Speaker 1>guests Patrick Ryan and Joseph Kelly takes a harm reduction

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<v Speaker 1>approach plus red flags click out for when someone makes

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<v Speaker 1>promises that they can get your loved one out of

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<v Speaker 1>a cult, and when intervention practices themselves can become irresponsible

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<v Speaker 1>or cult like.

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<v Speaker 4>Ooh, I love it.

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<v Speaker 2>It's always such an interesting topic to me. It's like

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<v Speaker 2>when the attempts to help people in a cult themselves

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<v Speaker 2>become a cult, like endlessly fascinating.

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<v Speaker 4>It's Russian dolls.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's Russian dolls, which for some reason just sounded

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<v Speaker 2>really cute to me when you said it. Happy New Year,

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<v Speaker 2>also to all you New Year Day.

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<v Speaker 4>Happy New Year.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this year is going to be interesting, and we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to be here looking at it.

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<v Speaker 2>That is true, we will be here looking at it.

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<v Speaker 2>What the fuck? Twenty twenty four. I don't even know.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't even know. Megan was your cultiest thing today.

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<v Speaker 1>My cultiest thing of the week is myself believing that

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to stick to New Year's resolutions.

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<v Speaker 2>M nice.

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<v Speaker 4>I do it every year.

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<v Speaker 1>I have a part of my brain that makes so

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<v Speaker 1>out there ideas and every year I completely believe them,

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<v Speaker 1>worship them, handover my being to them, and yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And their resolutions, Like is it stuff that's like in

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<v Speaker 2>your control, like things you're going to do or stuff

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<v Speaker 2>that's like I hope this happens.

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<v Speaker 4>This stuff that is in my control that I'm going

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<v Speaker 4>to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>But that you don't well, I mean I don't either, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>No, And I mean it's stuff hope and maybe I

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<v Speaker 1>can put in some small little changes. But every year

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<v Speaker 1>I'm like, I make your resolution to not make a resolution,

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<v Speaker 1>and then I make all these bizarre promises and it's

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<v Speaker 1>just endless.

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<v Speaker 2>What are the kinds of things you think you're gonna do?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna start getting up so early. Oh you wouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>even believe it's never gonna happen.

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<v Speaker 2>That's hilarious. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, So just stuff like that, you know, And I

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<v Speaker 4>don't know why I do it. There's some part of

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<v Speaker 4>me that needs it, and just recognizing that and our

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<v Speaker 4>and ourselves? What about you? What's the guiltiest thing that

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<v Speaker 4>happened to you this week?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, before I say that, I'm going to just comment

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<v Speaker 2>on what you just said, which is that like i've

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<v Speaker 2>I'm I have. I do a vision board every year

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<v Speaker 2>and I love doing it. I love making it like

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<v Speaker 2>exactly my esthetic and it like looks like a film

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<v Speaker 2>I would make, you know, and it's and I had

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<v Speaker 2>like whittled it down to just like like four five

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<v Speaker 2>five things and the years past so fast. Now then

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I literally just made one. What Like, what's

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<v Speaker 2>the point. There's no difference, like nothing, I'm just getting older.

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<v Speaker 1>Nothing is changing our little, our little positivity.

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<v Speaker 2>But I but it's still nice, it's still fun. But

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<v Speaker 2>but literally this year past, this year felt like three

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<v Speaker 2>months to be max.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh it was a minute.

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<v Speaker 2>I do not like this part of growing up. If

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<v Speaker 2>years still feel long to you, I don't know. That

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<v Speaker 2>was so hard to say, enjoy it, savor it, take

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<v Speaker 2>your time so fast. Okay. My cultiest thing is that Facebook.

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<v Speaker 2>Have you heard this? Facebook is now doing this like

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<v Speaker 2>or Meta is now doing this, launching this thing where

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<v Speaker 2>they are launching AI profiles. No, so that there will

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<v Speaker 2>be bought profiles that are like official meta AI profiles

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<v Speaker 2>interacting with meta the way that humans do. Oh my gosh,

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<v Speaker 2>and yes, okay, can you can you? I hadn't heard

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<v Speaker 2>that term before. Can you say what that means?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's just that most of the things on

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<v Speaker 1>the Internet at this point are bots and not real people.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's like a bot will post something and then

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<v Speaker 2>it will go viral, but everyone interacting with it is

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<v Speaker 2>also a bot.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's just this whole social media landscape where there's

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<v Speaker 2>absolutely nothing social about it. Yes, that fucking scares me.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean I don't want to be like one of

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<v Speaker 2>those people who's like resisting the future or whatever, but

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<v Speaker 2>that is like already algorithms are shaping us to a

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<v Speaker 2>degree that I really really, that really really scares me,

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<v Speaker 2>as you know, given how much we think and talk

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<v Speaker 2>about manipulation and influence. Yeah, Like, so then there's gonna

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<v Speaker 2>be people who seem like real people but meta controls them.

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<v Speaker 4>And yeah, why are they even saying that they're doing.

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<v Speaker 2>This, I don't understand. I'm sure there's a reason. It

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<v Speaker 2>probably has to do with ad sales and making more money.

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<v Speaker 2>I would guess but I truly have no idea. If

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<v Speaker 2>somebody knows the answer, please tell me, because I only

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<v Speaker 2>read like an article in a half about it, so

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know that much. I love the half part.

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<v Speaker 1>You were like, I'm done, that's enough. I wish I

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<v Speaker 1>had like the exact thing in front of me. If

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<v Speaker 1>only there were away I could look at it on

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<v Speaker 1>my computer. But I'm not going to. No, But I

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<v Speaker 1>there's this really funny post where somebody on Facebook is like, ah, fuck,

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<v Speaker 1>I have to find out hold on, hold.

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<v Speaker 2>On, Okay, while you do that, what I'll say is

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<v Speaker 2>there are really fascinating statistics on how many viral posts

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<v Speaker 2>are bought, interacted with, and but also I think what

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<v Speaker 2>also becomes dangerous is, like what you see on Twitter

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<v Speaker 2>is there will be accounts that have a of followers,

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<v Speaker 2>and so they seem more reliable, they see more trustworthy,

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<v Speaker 2>like the real people. Yeah, and then misinformation spread through

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<v Speaker 2>those accounts. I'm not saying metas intending to spread disinformation,

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<v Speaker 2>although who fucking knows, but yeah, yeah, what was it

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<v Speaker 2>you were going to say?

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<v Speaker 4>I can't find it?

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<v Speaker 1>But basically there was just a there was a post

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<v Speaker 1>of a guy who's just like, does anybody want to

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<v Speaker 1>learn how to make a thousand dollars a week? I

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<v Speaker 1>just found out how it's obviously a bot. And then

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<v Speaker 1>this woman responds and she's like, Hi, I'm new here.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't have any friends. It's really hard for me

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<v Speaker 1>to make friends. Does anybody want to be my friend?

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<v Speaker 1>And that's a bot? And then another person responds and

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<v Speaker 1>it was like a Reddit posts a while back of

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<v Speaker 1>like dead Internet what this will look like, and it's

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<v Speaker 1>just all bots like saying their bot yeah and pc

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<v Speaker 1>shit to each other, and it was just really.

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<v Speaker 2>Creepy good Yeah, well, what I mean that has to okay? Again,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know anything about this world, so I might

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<v Speaker 2>be talking completely out of my But in theory, that

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<v Speaker 2>seems like that would backfire because what then is going

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<v Speaker 2>to be happening. It seems is that advertisers who are

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<v Speaker 2>paying a ton of money to be seen on these

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<v Speaker 2>platforms are going to be seen by like won't that

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<v Speaker 2>water down their money their revenue income if everyone on

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<v Speaker 2>the app is fucking bought anyway, I don't know anything,

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<v Speaker 2>but I know I don't like it.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm putting that on your grapes stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>Please do.

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<v Speaker 3>Happy New yeark y'all.

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like this conversation today was really enlightening. It

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<v Speaker 1>definitely taught me a lot, so.

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<v Speaker 4>We hope you enjoy it.

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<v Speaker 2>Indeed, let's do it. Welcome Ashland to trust Me. Thanks

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<v Speaker 2>for being with us.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having

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<v Speaker 3>me on. I love you guys' podcast. And you've interviewed

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<v Speaker 3>so many wonderful friends and colleagues of mine on the platform. Two.

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<v Speaker 3>I loved your interview with Pat Ryan and Joseph Kelly.

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<v Speaker 1>You did.

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<v Speaker 3>They've been my mentors for years and years and I

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<v Speaker 3>worked with them pretty actively, So thank you for having

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<v Speaker 3>me on. It's a privilege to be on here.

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<v Speaker 2>So you have an organization and it is called People

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<v Speaker 2>Leave Cults, And before we kind of talk about your work,

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<v Speaker 2>which is so amazing and I'm so excited to get

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<v Speaker 2>into it. I'd love to know how you came to

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<v Speaker 2>this work and what your own personal experiences were.

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<v Speaker 3>Sure. I was raised in a very religious household. I

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<v Speaker 3>was born into the Churches of Christ. And there's a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of different types of Churches of Christ. The United

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<v Speaker 3>Church of Christ is considered very progressive. For example, the

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<v Speaker 3>International Churches of Christ is considered one of the much

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<v Speaker 3>more culty variations of the Church of Christ. They had

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<v Speaker 3>like more of a cult leader Kit McKean. It's also

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<v Speaker 3>known as the Boston Movement, did a lot of Koreina

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<v Speaker 3>College campuses, and the group I came from was a

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<v Speaker 3>very small like sect within that, and it was then

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<v Speaker 3>it was referred to as the non Institutional Churches of Christ.

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<v Speaker 3>During the nineteen hundreds there was a split from the

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<v Speaker 3>mainstream Churches of Christ movement, and we're also known as

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<v Speaker 3>the Anties anti apostrophe s because our group was known

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<v Speaker 3>to be anti everything in that like the non institutional

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<v Speaker 3>Churches of Christ really believed that they were practicing first

0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:37.360
<v Speaker 3>century Christianity in the twenty first century. We have roots

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<v Speaker 3>back to the second Grade Awakening, around the same time

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<v Speaker 3>where Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses were coming to the scene.

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<v Speaker 3>Thomas Campbell and Barton W. Stone were like the main

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<v Speaker 3>sort of founders I guess you could call them of

0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:54.000
<v Speaker 3>the group during that time. Their sort of mission was,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, they were in this era where they looked

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<v Speaker 3>around them and they saw all these different sort of

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<v Speaker 3>charismatic groups popping up and they're like, well, we have

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<v Speaker 3>the Bible, and we have all these different splits and

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<v Speaker 3>variations on it. So like, what if we in essence

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<v Speaker 3>use the Bible and created a framework for interpreting the

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<v Speaker 3>Bible so that we can all reach the same conclusion

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<v Speaker 3>as to what the Bible's saying. The church I came

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<v Speaker 3>from was non denominational, whereas like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons,

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<v Speaker 3>they're denominational. They have like a central headquarters, they have

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<v Speaker 3>central leadership. Our group was more scattered, primarily in the

0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:38.560
<v Speaker 3>Bible Belt, and they just were local churches and the

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<v Speaker 3>money would stay, you know, for example, within the church,

0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:43.640
<v Speaker 3>they're not giving it to a headquarters. There's no like

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<v Speaker 3>established central leadership. But you could walk into a Church

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<v Speaker 3>of Christ that was affiliated with this group in Florida,

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<v Speaker 3>and walk into a Church of Christ affiliate with this

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<v Speaker 3>group in California, and the beliefs and interpretations would be

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<v Speaker 3>the same with people. It was kind of like being

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<v Speaker 3>raised in a non denominational denomination. So like the groups

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<v Speaker 3>are the same, but they're locally run. This group has

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of roots in history within my family. So

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<v Speaker 3>I'm like third generation on my mom's side, and I

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<v Speaker 3>was also a legacy student at the group's college. There's

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<v Speaker 3>a Christian college in Tampa, Florida for those within the group,

0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:31.680
<v Speaker 3>and it's called Florida College. I attended there, my mom

0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:36.480
<v Speaker 3>attended there, my grandmother attended there, and my grandmother even

0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:39.120
<v Speaker 3>worked for the college for many many years. It was

0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:43.840
<v Speaker 3>very like well known, and I guess sort of entangled

0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:49.160
<v Speaker 3>within my family system. And to make things even more complex,

0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.800
<v Speaker 3>it certainly was high control in that we had a

0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.800
<v Speaker 3>hard time looking at other churches who claimed to be

0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:01.600
<v Speaker 3>Christians and actually seeing them as Christians because they weren't

0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:05.079
<v Speaker 3>interpreting the Bible the same way that we were. And

0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:08.760
<v Speaker 3>that was really sad, even at an early age for me.

0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:12.160
<v Speaker 3>So one of the reasons why they're called the anties,

0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:18.120
<v Speaker 3>for example, is their interpretation with scripture is, well, there's

0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:22.000
<v Speaker 3>no guitar or piano mentioned in the New Testament used

0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:26.360
<v Speaker 3>during worship service, So if you introduce one, it's not

0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:31.600
<v Speaker 3>just a matter of church preference or meeting preference. That's

0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:38.000
<v Speaker 3>actually like inserting your own view into the Bible. That's

0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:41.240
<v Speaker 3>going against God's authority, and that then becomes a heaven

0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:45.360
<v Speaker 3>or Hell question. So your salvation can be at stake

0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:49.319
<v Speaker 3>if you introduce something into the New Testament that doesn't exist.

0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.600
<v Speaker 3>And because they only have himn songs and spiritual songs

0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:57.120
<v Speaker 3>with like your voice, we were known as like a

0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:00.680
<v Speaker 3>cappella only very strictly with these groups.

0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:05.080
<v Speaker 2>Would that trickle down to life outside of church itself

0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:07.720
<v Speaker 2>or was that just in service?

0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:11.760
<v Speaker 3>It depended on the group and the family, to be

0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:15.800
<v Speaker 3>honest with you. My parents, for example, they loved the Gathers.

0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.640
<v Speaker 3>Oh my goodness. There was many a times where we

0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:19.920
<v Speaker 3>were in the car and we listened to the Gathers

0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:23.800
<v Speaker 3>and the gathers are like an old school gospel band, right,

0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:29.120
<v Speaker 3>and so they're playing instruments, they're singing hymns to them,

0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:33.040
<v Speaker 3>whereas other families they would avoid that entirely and they

0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:36.960
<v Speaker 3>would only listen to acapella. But certainly within the context

0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:40.280
<v Speaker 3>of the worship service. It was such a serious issue

0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:44.280
<v Speaker 3>that churches that had a piano or a guitar their

0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:46.640
<v Speaker 3>salvation actually could be at risk because of that. Wow

0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:51.280
<v Speaker 3>and so it was a very fundamentalist interpretation of the scripture.

0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:53.960
<v Speaker 4>I relate a lot to that. The group that I

0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:54.560
<v Speaker 4>was raised in.

0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:57.080
<v Speaker 1>My family was like, we would rather you be with

0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:01.720
<v Speaker 1>complete non believers than be with a kid from school

0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:03.640
<v Speaker 1>who like goes to one of those churches where they

0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.840
<v Speaker 1>sang and raise their hands and stuff. So it was, yeah,

0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:10.880
<v Speaker 1>it's very interesting to I hate other forms of Christianity

0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:11.240
<v Speaker 1>that much.

0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:14.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, in the way in which women in the role

0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:16.520
<v Speaker 3>of women within the group, you know, we weren't allowed

0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:19.920
<v Speaker 3>to participate in the service. It was a men run service.

0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:24.680
<v Speaker 3>Women could teach Bible classes up until a point. If

0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:27.280
<v Speaker 3>there was a kid who was like, let's say fourteen,

0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:32.400
<v Speaker 3>a male who was a boy who was baptized, she

0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:37.160
<v Speaker 3>then shouldn't be teaching him because he now has authority

0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:41.520
<v Speaker 3>over her. No way, And so oftentimes she would have

0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:43.800
<v Speaker 3>to bring in her husband into the Bible class to

0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:47.160
<v Speaker 3>be present, or so it was like couples teaching, or

0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:49.240
<v Speaker 3>like they would put in a male teacher at that

0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:52.640
<v Speaker 3>stage to teach a young man. It was very very

0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:56.920
<v Speaker 3>strict in that regard. So I attended the group's college

0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:02.440
<v Speaker 3>and got married, got my degree and left shortly after.

0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:05.120
<v Speaker 2>And what was your degree in originally.

0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:11.480
<v Speaker 3>Communication, a bachelor's degree and of minor in biblical studies, okay, okay.

0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:17.960
<v Speaker 3>I was very into the exegesis of random old Testament books.

0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:21.720
<v Speaker 3>I was kind of nerdy like that. I really was

0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:25.240
<v Speaker 3>invested in learning as much as I could during that time.

0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:29.400
<v Speaker 3>And I think what made my sort of upbringing also

0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:33.760
<v Speaker 3>very complex was I was a military kid. We moved

0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:38.640
<v Speaker 3>every couple years. My dad was last stationed in Utah,

0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:43.440
<v Speaker 3>and I was raised in Utah from about fourth grade

0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:47.520
<v Speaker 3>through high school. Oh where actually like Caswell Fruit Heights area,

0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:50.720
<v Speaker 3>it's like twenty minutes north of Salt Lake City, very

0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:56.320
<v Speaker 3>old school, like old established Mormon pioneer town. And I

0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:59.840
<v Speaker 3>attended a high school there, which was massive, very very

0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.520
<v Speaker 3>Mormon area that I grew up in. And so from

0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:08.760
<v Speaker 3>a very young age, my Mormon friends, which I who

0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:11.360
<v Speaker 3>I loved and I had many of, they were trying

0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:12.399
<v Speaker 3>to convert me, and I was trying to.

0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:14.840
<v Speaker 2>Convert that right, right, So it.

0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:18.840
<v Speaker 3>Was such a sort of like abnormal thing to be

0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:21.920
<v Speaker 3>dealing with at such a young age, being raised in school.

0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:25.760
<v Speaker 3>I remember my first encounter in the fourth grade, and

0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:28.280
<v Speaker 3>I have hardly any other memories from that time. But

0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:31.000
<v Speaker 3>when I first my first day of school, I remember

0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:34.679
<v Speaker 3>a young kid coming up to me and asking before

0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:36.960
<v Speaker 3>my name was even asked, it was like, Hey, are

0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:39.560
<v Speaker 3>you warming and I was like, I didn't even know

0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:43.000
<v Speaker 3>what that meant yet. And I said no, and he said,

0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:47.040
<v Speaker 3>well you are, you just don't know it yet and

0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:50.320
<v Speaker 3>then proceeded to leave. And I that was a conversation

0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:54.960
<v Speaker 3>that really like stuck with me. What really helped me

0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.720
<v Speaker 3>in my transition out of my group was I had

0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:04.520
<v Speaker 3>to really, I think critically with interacting with my also

0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:12.119
<v Speaker 3>highly conservative Mormon friends. Interesting because I really decided to

0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:16.040
<v Speaker 3>immerse myself. I read and studied so much of their scripture,

0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:21.639
<v Speaker 3>their history. I became really really immersed in it because

0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:24.800
<v Speaker 3>I wanted to learn how to connect with them what

0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:27.800
<v Speaker 3>it all meant. And I think a little bit also

0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:30.480
<v Speaker 3>during that time, I was interested in trying to find

0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:34.359
<v Speaker 3>out how to have almost like evangelical conversations with them.

0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:37.000
<v Speaker 3>I think I was interested and seemed if I could

0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.280
<v Speaker 3>almost make a dent as a Christian in the Mormon care.

0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:43.600
<v Speaker 4>You're like a lawyer, are you kind of like studying.

0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:47.040
<v Speaker 3>To Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's dismantle what they're saying.

0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:51.000
<v Speaker 3>It wasn't great, but that that was I almost felt

0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.800
<v Speaker 3>like I had to in order to live in that

0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:58.600
<v Speaker 3>culture and just get by in the extreme minority. That's

0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:01.080
<v Speaker 3>a little bit about my upbringing.

0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:04.920
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, how interesting too that such a large amount

0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:08.280
<v Speaker 2>of exposure to a different religion that can often become

0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.879
<v Speaker 2>very fundamental is a thing that sort of helped you

0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:16.920
<v Speaker 2>out of yours? And what was it about learning about

0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:19.920
<v Speaker 2>Mormonism that kind of woke you up a little bit?

0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:24.440
<v Speaker 3>I think what it's sort of awakened in me was, oh,

0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:28.760
<v Speaker 3>my gosh, we're actually not that different. I saw them

0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:32.760
<v Speaker 3>as more high control, certainly more culty than like the

0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:35.879
<v Speaker 3>group I was in. But as I got older and

0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:38.880
<v Speaker 3>I saw sort of the juxtaposition between like their beliefs

0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:42.040
<v Speaker 3>and my beliefs, I was like, it's not all that different.

0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:46.000
<v Speaker 3>And that sort of prompted me to ask questions about

0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:49.639
<v Speaker 3>my own faith and great bringing. And it also taught me,

0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:52.240
<v Speaker 3>from a very i think early age to think really

0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:57.120
<v Speaker 3>critically about this stuff because I was forced to encounter

0:19:57.160 --> 0:19:58.160
<v Speaker 3>it every day.

0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:01.760
<v Speaker 2>For listeners, Ashlynd knows my mother, of course she does.

0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:04.640
<v Speaker 3>We'll talk about her at some point, I'm.

0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:07.800
<v Speaker 2>Sure, yes. But something you know she talks about a

0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:11.760
<v Speaker 2>lot is the importance of hearing other people's stories or

0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:14.560
<v Speaker 2>getting to, you know, having a point of reference, something

0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:18.360
<v Speaker 2>to compare your group too, being the thing that can

0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:21.440
<v Speaker 2>sort of wake you up as opposed to somebody telling

0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:23.880
<v Speaker 2>you you're wrong, just kind of like drawing, making those

0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:26.720
<v Speaker 2>connections for yourself and it sounds like that's kind of

0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:27.399
<v Speaker 2>what happened with you.

0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:31.400
<v Speaker 3>We use that within the intervention world as well when

0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:34.960
<v Speaker 3>we have conversations with people who are in groups, and

0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:38.040
<v Speaker 3>I refer to that and as a third party processing,

0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:44.120
<v Speaker 3>it's much easier for people to provide commentary on other

0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:48.119
<v Speaker 3>people's experiences right, not so much their own right. And

0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:50.800
<v Speaker 3>when they do that, you can kind of hear and

0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:55.120
<v Speaker 3>listen to what their perspectives are on that, and they

0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:57.840
<v Speaker 3>will then in turn sort of start to connect the

0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:00.840
<v Speaker 3>dots in their own way during their own times. Yeah,

0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:03.800
<v Speaker 3>it's a very effective tool actually for people in groups.

0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:15.800
<v Speaker 2>Tell us about how you came to become a professional

0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:18.560
<v Speaker 2>in the cult intervention and recovery space.

0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:25.440
<v Speaker 3>Sure. So I graduated college moved back to Utah because

0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:27.919
<v Speaker 3>I missed being close to my family. I missed, you know,

0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:30.800
<v Speaker 3>being closer to my brother there. I also, I think

0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:34.600
<v Speaker 3>just kind of missed the culture of home. Like I

0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:38.600
<v Speaker 3>loved growing up there, even though it was challenging. I

0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:41.399
<v Speaker 3>loved the mountains. There was just so much about it

0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:46.840
<v Speaker 3>that I loved. And once I wasn't there, I was working,

0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:49.199
<v Speaker 3>you know, I was bartending for a bit, I was

0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:51.840
<v Speaker 3>working in restaurants. I was just trying to like figure

0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:54.720
<v Speaker 3>out what to do and apply for after just getting

0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:57.920
<v Speaker 3>a degree. Just getting a bachelor's degree out of college

0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:01.359
<v Speaker 3>was one of my most challenging times and actually finding

0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:04.160
<v Speaker 3>work because it's not quite a master's and you don't

0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:06.119
<v Speaker 3>have the experience, and so you're just kind of looking

0:22:06.160 --> 0:22:11.600
<v Speaker 3>for any entry level thing. And I was really interested

0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:15.440
<v Speaker 3>in helping other people who had been through some sort

0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:18.520
<v Speaker 3>of similar transition in their life, whether that was a

0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:24.320
<v Speaker 3>loss of community of faith crisis. And I started volunteering

0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:29.359
<v Speaker 3>at a nonprofit in the Salt Lake City Valley and

0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:33.159
<v Speaker 3>it was very very small. There was maybe like there

0:22:33.240 --> 0:22:37.400
<v Speaker 3>was like five employed staff when I was there, and

0:22:37.920 --> 0:22:41.720
<v Speaker 3>they brought me into talk to women in this nonprofit,

0:22:41.800 --> 0:22:46.080
<v Speaker 3>I should say, helped people who were exiting diverse Polygonist

0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:50.439
<v Speaker 3>communities all across the Western US, And they brought me

0:22:50.520 --> 0:22:53.040
<v Speaker 3>in to like speak to women who had left different

0:22:53.040 --> 0:22:56.200
<v Speaker 3>Polygamist groups. And when I say polygamists, I should probably

0:22:56.200 --> 0:23:00.639
<v Speaker 3>say for the listeners, this is Mormon fundamentalist in this groups.

0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:03.359
<v Speaker 3>So there's obviously a lot of history there as to

0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:07.720
<v Speaker 3>how that all happened. But these are people who decided

0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:10.840
<v Speaker 3>to keep practicing polygamy and felt that that was the

0:23:10.880 --> 0:23:13.920
<v Speaker 3>truest form of the Mormon faith to continue on into

0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:17.399
<v Speaker 3>the present day. And they noticed how I interacted with

0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:20.159
<v Speaker 3>the women, and you know, it's kind of like you

0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:23.399
<v Speaker 3>put survivors who've been in a high control group in

0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:26.639
<v Speaker 3>a room, and it doesn't matter what group they necessarily left,

0:23:26.760 --> 0:23:29.760
<v Speaker 3>or how extreme or not extreme, they find ways to

0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:33.040
<v Speaker 3>just get on, to just connect, to make jokes to like,

0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:34.880
<v Speaker 3>you know that you just kind of get each other.

0:23:35.600 --> 0:23:38.200
<v Speaker 3>They noticed that the people who worked at this nonprofit,

0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:40.760
<v Speaker 3>and so a job positioned open up to be a

0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:44.160
<v Speaker 3>case manager, and I applied and I got the job.

0:23:44.760 --> 0:23:48.399
<v Speaker 3>So I was one of like two case managers in

0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:53.440
<v Speaker 3>the Salt Lake City Valley working with women and children

0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:57.520
<v Speaker 3>and young boys who were fleeing these different groups. And

0:23:58.000 --> 0:24:02.159
<v Speaker 3>that involved working with people leaving the Kingston Clan, the

0:24:02.200 --> 0:24:08.360
<v Speaker 3>Apostolic United Brethren Communities, the FLDS, and of course there's

0:24:08.440 --> 0:24:13.680
<v Speaker 3>other smaller groups that are independent and yeah, so I

0:24:13.720 --> 0:24:18.520
<v Speaker 3>started working there and experienced very quickly what it's like

0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:22.240
<v Speaker 3>to work with cult survivors and crisis. I was getting

0:24:22.280 --> 0:24:26.120
<v Speaker 3>women to safe houses. I was pulling tracking devices out

0:24:26.119 --> 0:24:29.959
<v Speaker 3>from under their cars. I was with law enforcement. I

0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:32.800
<v Speaker 3>was getting gang stocked by the Kingston Clan late at

0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:37.119
<v Speaker 3>night p Lake City. I encountered so many things at

0:24:37.160 --> 0:24:43.040
<v Speaker 3>such an early age that was very unique. And I

0:24:43.080 --> 0:24:48.960
<v Speaker 3>absolutely loved the work. I loved the clients. I loved

0:24:49.040 --> 0:24:52.800
<v Speaker 3>just helping people get resources and get on their feet.

0:24:52.880 --> 0:24:56.800
<v Speaker 3>And I helped moms get their GEDs for the first time.

0:24:56.880 --> 0:25:00.280
<v Speaker 3>I mean I I just loved the work. It was

0:25:00.280 --> 0:25:04.000
<v Speaker 3>a very very dangerous work though, because men within these

0:25:04.040 --> 0:25:07.000
<v Speaker 3>communities they knew me, they knew my other case manager,

0:25:07.200 --> 0:25:09.680
<v Speaker 3>they did not like us, and so we experienced a

0:25:09.720 --> 0:25:12.359
<v Speaker 3>lot of threats and it kind of got to a

0:25:12.400 --> 0:25:16.159
<v Speaker 3>point where it was really nasty. Yeah, And so I

0:25:16.280 --> 0:25:20.560
<v Speaker 3>just I got involved with the International Cultic Studies Association

0:25:21.520 --> 0:25:24.359
<v Speaker 3>and I presented at a conference back in like twenty

0:25:24.400 --> 0:25:29.000
<v Speaker 3>eighteen in Philadelphia on my work, and a job positioned

0:25:29.040 --> 0:25:32.320
<v Speaker 3>open up with them, and a director was like, you

0:25:32.359 --> 0:25:35.320
<v Speaker 3>should apply for this thing, and so I did, and

0:25:35.760 --> 0:25:39.200
<v Speaker 3>I got hired to work for the International Cultic Studies Association,

0:25:39.520 --> 0:25:41.600
<v Speaker 3>and I worked there for about three and a half years.

0:25:42.040 --> 0:25:44.639
<v Speaker 3>They're one of the longer standing nonprofits that haven't been

0:25:44.680 --> 0:25:50.119
<v Speaker 3>sued into the ground by cults. Yeah, and so I

0:25:50.160 --> 0:25:53.160
<v Speaker 3>worked there for about three and a half years. Yeah.

0:25:53.200 --> 0:25:54.840
<v Speaker 3>So I worked for ICSA for about three and a

0:25:54.880 --> 0:25:58.239
<v Speaker 3>half years. That was a time where I really got

0:25:58.320 --> 0:26:03.800
<v Speaker 3>plugged in with professionals working all across the industry, lawyers

0:26:03.840 --> 0:26:08.760
<v Speaker 3>and then a health professionals, survivors or families who have

0:26:08.920 --> 0:26:11.399
<v Speaker 3>been around in cult recovery for many, many years. And

0:26:11.400 --> 0:26:13.679
<v Speaker 3>so I'm really grateful for my time spent there. I

0:26:13.720 --> 0:26:16.119
<v Speaker 3>was there for three and a half years. I was

0:26:16.200 --> 0:26:20.240
<v Speaker 3>director of events. I was running the workshops, the conferences,

0:26:20.960 --> 0:26:23.639
<v Speaker 3>my neurodivergence was put to the test. I was running

0:26:23.640 --> 0:26:29.240
<v Speaker 3>all the things, and I got my master's degree in

0:26:29.280 --> 0:26:32.840
<v Speaker 3>the psychology of course of control. I really wanted to

0:26:32.960 --> 0:26:37.960
<v Speaker 3>understand more about the psychology of radicalization, why people join

0:26:38.080 --> 0:26:41.560
<v Speaker 3>these groups, why they leave, why they stay. I met

0:26:41.600 --> 0:26:45.240
<v Speaker 3>Pat Ryan and Joseph Kelly also during that Manchester trip

0:26:45.880 --> 0:26:50.720
<v Speaker 3>back in twenty nineteen, and they are sort of veteran

0:26:51.359 --> 0:26:54.280
<v Speaker 3>cult interventionists. They've been in the field working with families

0:26:54.280 --> 0:26:58.040
<v Speaker 3>for over thirty five years or something crazy. We stayed

0:26:58.040 --> 0:27:01.440
<v Speaker 3>in touch and we just got really close, and I

0:27:01.520 --> 0:27:03.240
<v Speaker 3>knew that I wanted to be doing the work that

0:27:03.280 --> 0:27:06.720
<v Speaker 3>they were doing. I really missed doing more of the

0:27:06.760 --> 0:27:12.360
<v Speaker 3>intervention work. I was more so in like a administrative

0:27:13.160 --> 0:27:16.960
<v Speaker 3>director events role, and so I was looking for ways

0:27:17.000 --> 0:27:20.640
<v Speaker 3>to transition to do more of the intervention work with families.

0:27:20.680 --> 0:27:23.639
<v Speaker 3>But as you guys know, there's not a career path

0:27:23.680 --> 0:27:27.480
<v Speaker 3>for any of this, not at all. Like, if you

0:27:27.520 --> 0:27:29.680
<v Speaker 3>want to work with people who've left cults, you kind

0:27:29.720 --> 0:27:32.960
<v Speaker 3>of have to just figure out how to do that

0:27:33.000 --> 0:27:34.399
<v Speaker 3>and in which way do you want to go to

0:27:34.400 --> 0:27:35.760
<v Speaker 3>the therapy route? Do you want to go to the

0:27:35.760 --> 0:27:39.800
<v Speaker 3>social work route? And I had such unique experience in

0:27:40.040 --> 0:27:42.520
<v Speaker 3>Utah that they're like, we think that you could actually

0:27:43.080 --> 0:27:45.760
<v Speaker 3>really do this work and be really good at it. Yeah,

0:27:45.800 --> 0:27:49.240
<v Speaker 3>So I work alongside them on different cases. I started

0:27:49.280 --> 0:27:53.320
<v Speaker 3>people leave cults after getting my master's degree, and also

0:27:53.359 --> 0:27:56.880
<v Speaker 3>work with survivors who are out of groups for peer

0:27:56.880 --> 0:28:01.359
<v Speaker 3>support groups online and just want to help trioge them

0:28:01.359 --> 0:28:04.240
<v Speaker 3>to resources. Because I have so many connections with people

0:28:04.240 --> 0:28:05.959
<v Speaker 3>in the field, I don't want them to have to

0:28:06.520 --> 0:28:08.719
<v Speaker 3>put in a lot of work especially when they're in

0:28:08.760 --> 0:28:12.320
<v Speaker 3>crisis and just looking for help, and I'm happy to

0:28:12.400 --> 0:28:14.560
<v Speaker 3>do a consult with them and just be like, here

0:28:14.560 --> 0:28:15.800
<v Speaker 3>are some places where you can go.

0:28:16.280 --> 0:28:18.320
<v Speaker 1>How long does it take you to kind of process

0:28:18.359 --> 0:28:20.879
<v Speaker 1>what you went through and be able to help other people.

0:28:21.800 --> 0:28:25.240
<v Speaker 3>So I did a really poor job at that when

0:28:25.280 --> 0:28:30.320
<v Speaker 3>I started out in Utah. I think because I was

0:28:30.359 --> 0:28:32.879
<v Speaker 3>working with a population where it made me feel like

0:28:33.040 --> 0:28:37.679
<v Speaker 3>my experiences weren't all that bad. I didn't experience child

0:28:38.040 --> 0:28:41.480
<v Speaker 3>underage marriage, I didn't experience a lack of education, I

0:28:41.520 --> 0:28:44.720
<v Speaker 3>didn't experience poverty to the degree that these people did.

0:28:44.760 --> 0:28:48.960
<v Speaker 3>And so I think because it's so easy for helpers

0:28:49.120 --> 0:28:51.959
<v Speaker 3>and social workers to just pour ourselves into other people

0:28:52.160 --> 0:28:56.240
<v Speaker 3>in crisis, I really did poorly and didn't do a

0:28:56.280 --> 0:29:01.880
<v Speaker 3>good job at addressing my own stuff until probably when

0:29:01.920 --> 0:29:04.280
<v Speaker 3>I was working at ICSA was when I got to

0:29:04.320 --> 0:29:07.400
<v Speaker 3>a place of like, Okay, my safety is not at

0:29:07.480 --> 0:29:10.520
<v Speaker 3>risk like it used to be. I have a full

0:29:10.560 --> 0:29:14.640
<v Speaker 3>time job. Now I can now take some time start

0:29:14.640 --> 0:29:18.840
<v Speaker 3>the therapeutic process. What would have been the better route

0:29:18.880 --> 0:29:21.480
<v Speaker 3>would be to do that first before helping other people,

0:29:21.880 --> 0:29:27.920
<v Speaker 3>because oftentimes, when survivors aren't healed themselves, we in the

0:29:27.960 --> 0:29:32.120
<v Speaker 3>process can do harm, even unknowingly when we're working with

0:29:32.160 --> 0:29:37.760
<v Speaker 3>other survivors, And so that was something that I learned

0:29:37.760 --> 0:29:40.320
<v Speaker 3>in real time was just But I think part of

0:29:40.320 --> 0:29:42.360
<v Speaker 3>it too was I kind of needed the time and

0:29:42.400 --> 0:29:45.800
<v Speaker 3>separation to work with other people who had been through

0:29:45.840 --> 0:29:48.840
<v Speaker 3>it for me to almost have the perspective of, oh,

0:29:49.280 --> 0:29:51.720
<v Speaker 3>these are things that I need to still work on

0:29:51.960 --> 0:29:54.880
<v Speaker 3>and I need to think about. Yeah, I just I

0:29:54.960 --> 0:29:56.760
<v Speaker 3>was so young. I was in my early twenties and

0:29:56.760 --> 0:30:00.880
<v Speaker 3>we're still trying to figure out who we are anyways,

0:30:01.040 --> 0:30:03.560
<v Speaker 3>you know, and I think, like, I think I kind

0:30:03.560 --> 0:30:06.440
<v Speaker 3>of needed that time and re established safety to like

0:30:06.680 --> 0:30:10.080
<v Speaker 3>do more deep dives in therapy into my own experience.

0:30:10.800 --> 0:30:12.440
<v Speaker 2>How do you define a cult?

0:30:13.200 --> 0:30:18.600
<v Speaker 3>Sure, so I actually really like my favorite definition is

0:30:19.000 --> 0:30:27.160
<v Speaker 3>probably the longest one that's available, and it was west

0:30:27.200 --> 0:30:31.480
<v Speaker 3>In Langoni who authored this definition many many years ago.

0:30:32.520 --> 0:30:34.360
<v Speaker 3>I think it was back in the eighties that I

0:30:34.360 --> 0:30:37.440
<v Speaker 3>have cited on my website that they provided this definition.

0:30:38.200 --> 0:30:44.720
<v Speaker 3>A cult can be defined as excessive devotion to a person, idea,

0:30:45.240 --> 0:30:51.040
<v Speaker 3>or thing. It is usually a group in that it's

0:30:51.080 --> 0:30:55.960
<v Speaker 3>more than one person that adheres to this or I

0:30:56.040 --> 0:30:58.760
<v Speaker 3>kind of think of it as too like. Obviously, domestic

0:30:58.800 --> 0:31:03.360
<v Speaker 3>violence relationships can very cult like. And that's two. The

0:31:03.440 --> 0:31:11.600
<v Speaker 3>group prioritizes its group beliefs and practices over individual autonomy,

0:31:11.720 --> 0:31:15.400
<v Speaker 3>or there's a restriction of autonomy essentially, and that can

0:31:15.440 --> 0:31:21.600
<v Speaker 3>be done through course of practices and doctrination. So that's like,

0:31:22.000 --> 0:31:26.680
<v Speaker 3>in very very simplistic terms, how I shorten the very

0:31:26.720 --> 0:31:29.560
<v Speaker 3>large definition and you can look at that very long

0:31:29.720 --> 0:31:32.840
<v Speaker 3>definition on my site on the what is a cult tab?

0:31:33.480 --> 0:31:36.880
<v Speaker 3>My sort of perspective on cults. It may not be

0:31:36.960 --> 0:31:40.840
<v Speaker 3>the most popular perspective. I think the term cult is very,

0:31:40.920 --> 0:31:44.800
<v Speaker 3>very complex. It's very nuanced. There's not one agreed upon

0:31:44.840 --> 0:31:47.280
<v Speaker 3>definition in the field as to what a cult is,

0:31:47.360 --> 0:31:52.360
<v Speaker 3>although we have many good definitions. I care more so

0:31:52.680 --> 0:31:56.640
<v Speaker 3>about not whether a group is labeled as a cult

0:31:56.760 --> 0:32:00.760
<v Speaker 3>or not a cult. I care more so about the

0:32:00.840 --> 0:32:07.400
<v Speaker 3>individual's experience. Did they have a cultic relationship with the

0:32:07.440 --> 0:32:10.680
<v Speaker 3>person or group in question right, and if so, how

0:32:10.800 --> 0:32:14.240
<v Speaker 3>like how were they harmed? And one of the reasons

0:32:14.320 --> 0:32:16.920
<v Speaker 3>why I sort of approach it that way is because

0:32:16.960 --> 0:32:19.320
<v Speaker 3>defining a cult is just half of the puzzle for

0:32:19.440 --> 0:32:24.600
<v Speaker 3>me in seeing how maybe groups line up with that definition,

0:32:24.880 --> 0:32:27.200
<v Speaker 3>how they use course of control and doctrination and things

0:32:27.280 --> 0:32:30.320
<v Speaker 3>like that. But I think the other half is just

0:32:31.160 --> 0:32:35.120
<v Speaker 3>everyone's experience and groups are so diverse. Like I worked

0:32:35.120 --> 0:32:39.560
<v Speaker 3>with women who were involved in polygamist groups who felt

0:32:39.600 --> 0:32:43.200
<v Speaker 3>like their experience was relatively good, they just lacked resources

0:32:43.520 --> 0:32:45.719
<v Speaker 3>and they needed more resources for their kids. And then

0:32:45.720 --> 0:32:48.800
<v Speaker 3>I worked with women who were trafficked as young girls

0:32:48.840 --> 0:32:53.680
<v Speaker 3>to be married and had horrific experiences of abuse. And

0:32:54.440 --> 0:32:57.080
<v Speaker 3>everyone's experiences is so diverse. And that doesn't mean that

0:32:57.120 --> 0:33:00.840
<v Speaker 3>these groups aren't harmful. I certainly classify them as you know, harmful.

0:33:01.440 --> 0:33:03.840
<v Speaker 3>But the term cult can also be used as such

0:33:03.840 --> 0:33:09.440
<v Speaker 3>a thought stopping technique, as Robert J. Liften coins it,

0:33:09.440 --> 0:33:12.640
<v Speaker 3>it's like just labeling someone as a Democrat or Republican

0:33:12.760 --> 0:33:14.800
<v Speaker 3>or you know. It's like it's one of those terms

0:33:14.840 --> 0:33:19.640
<v Speaker 3>that can make people defensive, shut down the conversation. And

0:33:19.720 --> 0:33:23.160
<v Speaker 3>so I like to leave it up to survivors as

0:33:23.160 --> 0:33:26.120
<v Speaker 3>to how they want to define their experience. If the

0:33:26.200 --> 0:33:30.040
<v Speaker 3>term cult is empowering for them, that's wonderful. If it

0:33:30.280 --> 0:33:33.280
<v Speaker 3>is a harmful label for them or just doesn't sit well,

0:33:34.120 --> 0:33:36.440
<v Speaker 3>we don't have to use it. And I think that's

0:33:37.040 --> 0:33:39.680
<v Speaker 3>prioritizing their autonomy and the recovery process.

0:33:40.320 --> 0:33:42.600
<v Speaker 2>Something that we've talked about on here a lot that

0:33:42.720 --> 0:33:45.760
<v Speaker 2>you may be referenced on your website a little bit

0:33:45.880 --> 0:33:51.440
<v Speaker 2>is when the term is used pejoratively, it can actually

0:33:51.960 --> 0:33:56.000
<v Speaker 2>dehumanize and further stigmatize people who really are actually in

0:33:56.040 --> 0:33:59.719
<v Speaker 2>need of help. And sometimes the sort of anti cult

0:34:00.680 --> 0:34:04.760
<v Speaker 2>folks can themselves become cult like in there, yes.

0:34:05.240 --> 0:34:09.160
<v Speaker 3>Yes it fits into this framework, or you or here's

0:34:09.239 --> 0:34:11.480
<v Speaker 3>the ways, and your group is a cult because it

0:34:11.520 --> 0:34:14.640
<v Speaker 3>fits into this model or because it fits into this framework.

0:34:14.680 --> 0:34:17.880
<v Speaker 3>And I just have a hard time with that, because again,

0:34:17.960 --> 0:34:22.560
<v Speaker 3>we're putting very specific boundaries around not just groups, but

0:34:22.680 --> 0:34:26.160
<v Speaker 3>people's experiences in doing so, and I think there's room

0:34:26.200 --> 0:34:28.640
<v Speaker 3>for both. I always encourage survivors to look at many

0:34:28.680 --> 0:34:32.160
<v Speaker 3>different models, see what works, see what doesn't, and like

0:34:32.719 --> 0:34:34.920
<v Speaker 3>be really critical of them. Like it's okay to say,

0:34:35.000 --> 0:34:37.319
<v Speaker 3>you know, this model doesn't fit my experience or this

0:34:37.400 --> 0:34:40.400
<v Speaker 3>framework doesn't fit my experience. I want to help instilled

0:34:40.480 --> 0:34:42.480
<v Speaker 3>sort of the critical thinking of that. I don't want

0:34:42.520 --> 0:34:46.560
<v Speaker 3>to tell people what their experiences should be defined as, right,

0:34:46.960 --> 0:34:49.680
<v Speaker 3>And when we work with families who have loved ones

0:34:49.680 --> 0:34:52.120
<v Speaker 3>in groups, we tell them to take the word cult

0:34:52.120 --> 0:34:57.000
<v Speaker 3>out of their vocabulary entirely. So we oftentimes just use

0:34:57.120 --> 0:35:00.920
<v Speaker 3>terms like abusive group, high control, group, course, or relationship

0:35:01.600 --> 0:35:07.720
<v Speaker 3>because sometimes families have unknowingly done harm in the process

0:35:07.760 --> 0:35:10.160
<v Speaker 3>of telling their loved one we think you're in a cult, right,

0:35:10.400 --> 0:35:14.560
<v Speaker 3>and we know that. Oftentimes people put in that position,

0:35:14.600 --> 0:35:16.680
<v Speaker 3>who are in groups will dig their heels in deeper.

0:35:17.000 --> 0:35:19.799
<v Speaker 3>They'll try to prove them otherwise, or the group has

0:35:19.880 --> 0:35:23.520
<v Speaker 3>told them already, They've prepared them for that argument of Look,

0:35:23.560 --> 0:35:25.160
<v Speaker 3>people are going to tell you that you're in a cult,

0:35:25.200 --> 0:35:26.400
<v Speaker 3>and this is why we're not one.

0:35:26.760 --> 0:35:30.600
<v Speaker 2>What to you is the distinction between a belief or

0:35:30.600 --> 0:35:32.759
<v Speaker 2>a group that we think is weird and one that

0:35:32.880 --> 0:35:36.759
<v Speaker 2>is actually coercive or high control, whether it's religious, political,

0:35:37.239 --> 0:35:37.840
<v Speaker 2>or otherwise.

0:35:38.480 --> 0:35:42.960
<v Speaker 3>Sure, you know, obviously there's a lot of weird beliefs.

0:35:43.440 --> 0:35:48.200
<v Speaker 3>I have several, I think we all do, Megan, I

0:35:48.200 --> 0:35:51.000
<v Speaker 3>do want to know one of your weird beliefs go further.

0:35:51.440 --> 0:35:54.359
<v Speaker 4>I mean, just you know, I believe we're in it.

0:35:54.400 --> 0:35:55.400
<v Speaker 4>We live in a simulation.

0:35:57.160 --> 0:36:00.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So that's that's fine, that's your your that's your like,

0:36:00.840 --> 0:36:05.680
<v Speaker 3>you know, belief. So if the belief is interfering with

0:36:05.760 --> 0:36:13.560
<v Speaker 3>your ability to have a well functioning life within society,

0:36:13.280 --> 0:36:16.960
<v Speaker 3>within yourself, Like if you're having a really hard time

0:36:16.960 --> 0:36:20.760
<v Speaker 3>with your mental health because of that belief structure or system,

0:36:21.239 --> 0:36:24.080
<v Speaker 3>that causes concern for me. And I think when you

0:36:24.120 --> 0:36:26.440
<v Speaker 3>say simulation, I actually can I use this as an

0:36:26.480 --> 0:36:30.440
<v Speaker 3>example because I think it's a leading example. I think

0:36:30.480 --> 0:36:32.760
<v Speaker 3>where I have seen that go in a very bad

0:36:32.840 --> 0:36:37.840
<v Speaker 3>way is, for example, when QAnon was at its height

0:36:38.719 --> 0:36:42.799
<v Speaker 3>and there was that sort of part of QAnon where

0:36:42.800 --> 0:36:45.760
<v Speaker 3>they believe Joe Biden was a lizard person the White

0:36:45.800 --> 0:36:50.239
<v Speaker 3>House is a set that became more than just a

0:36:50.280 --> 0:36:54.000
<v Speaker 3>conspiracy or a belief. It became well, I don't know

0:36:54.040 --> 0:36:58.839
<v Speaker 3>what's actually real in life anymore, and they needed more

0:36:58.920 --> 0:37:03.759
<v Speaker 3>immediate psycheaatric crisis care. And so that was sort of

0:37:03.760 --> 0:37:08.120
<v Speaker 3>the turning point for some folks, sadly who were that's

0:37:08.120 --> 0:37:12.000
<v Speaker 3>when the belief became a point of crisis. I also

0:37:12.120 --> 0:37:18.000
<v Speaker 3>think beyond just functioning mental health is will the group

0:37:18.080 --> 0:37:24.239
<v Speaker 3>allow you to prioritize yourself at any point during the

0:37:24.239 --> 0:37:28.640
<v Speaker 3>belief process. So if something isn't feeling right, if something

0:37:28.680 --> 0:37:32.680
<v Speaker 3>isn't sitting right, can you say I don't agree with

0:37:32.760 --> 0:37:38.480
<v Speaker 3>that point or I actually disagree with that perspective and

0:37:38.560 --> 0:37:43.040
<v Speaker 3>still find community within that group or system without being punished,

0:37:44.680 --> 0:37:51.040
<v Speaker 3>without being shunned, without you know, facing yeah, like any

0:37:51.080 --> 0:37:55.640
<v Speaker 3>sort of negativity, or like there should be a fluidity

0:37:55.719 --> 0:37:58.680
<v Speaker 3>or flexibility I feel like in beliefs, because beliefs can

0:37:58.760 --> 0:38:02.719
<v Speaker 3>change the change from person to person, from group to group,

0:38:02.760 --> 0:38:07.560
<v Speaker 3>from place to place. And so if you change your

0:38:07.600 --> 0:38:09.720
<v Speaker 3>belief or say, you know, I think this one sits

0:38:09.719 --> 0:38:13.480
<v Speaker 3>well with me, but this one doesn't, okay, then you're out.

0:38:13.600 --> 0:38:17.880
<v Speaker 3>That's a very unhealthy I feel like form of belief structure,

0:38:18.080 --> 0:38:20.200
<v Speaker 3>and I think that is the structure that often leads

0:38:20.200 --> 0:38:24.919
<v Speaker 3>to cults or high control groups is when people say,

0:38:24.960 --> 0:38:27.640
<v Speaker 3>you have to adhere to this, even if it's to your.

0:38:27.560 --> 0:38:30.640
<v Speaker 4>Own detriment and no questions.

0:38:29.920 --> 0:38:33.799
<v Speaker 3>No questions. Right, If it's to your own detriment and

0:38:33.880 --> 0:38:37.640
<v Speaker 3>it's not prioritizing your mental health or your needs, that

0:38:37.800 --> 0:38:40.440
<v Speaker 3>is a red flag for me. And that's what I

0:38:40.520 --> 0:38:43.239
<v Speaker 3>try to talk to people a lot about. Cults can

0:38:43.320 --> 0:38:46.919
<v Speaker 3>be absolutely destructive, and at the same time, what makes

0:38:46.960 --> 0:38:49.560
<v Speaker 3>them so complex is cults can also be life saving

0:38:49.880 --> 0:38:52.760
<v Speaker 3>to certain people and at certain points in their life

0:38:53.560 --> 0:38:57.759
<v Speaker 3>so that's the sort of paradox we have to work within.

0:39:06.440 --> 0:39:12.840
<v Speaker 2>Politically speaking, this accusation gets thrown around a lot. Obviously

0:39:12.840 --> 0:39:16.320
<v Speaker 2>there are political cults who are literally physically present together.

0:39:16.760 --> 0:39:19.480
<v Speaker 2>That does happen, But typically I think this term is

0:39:19.520 --> 0:39:23.359
<v Speaker 2>sort of used for entire political parties or ideas. And

0:39:24.000 --> 0:39:27.480
<v Speaker 2>I also get a lot of comments about how Democrats

0:39:27.480 --> 0:39:30.480
<v Speaker 2>are unicult, or how liberals are in a cult, or

0:39:30.520 --> 0:39:33.279
<v Speaker 2>how leftists are in a cult. You know, just like

0:39:33.320 --> 0:39:36.840
<v Speaker 2>depending on where somebody is on the political spectrum, Neoliberalism

0:39:36.960 --> 0:39:40.319
<v Speaker 2>is a cult, Republicans are like everybody thinks everybody else

0:39:40.360 --> 0:39:42.920
<v Speaker 2>is a cult. Yes, politically right now.

0:39:42.840 --> 0:39:45.480
<v Speaker 1>The two party system has like kind of forced us

0:39:45.640 --> 0:39:47.840
<v Speaker 1>to slightly be in one.

0:39:48.160 --> 0:39:50.759
<v Speaker 3>I think this, yeah, And I think when it does

0:39:50.800 --> 0:39:54.640
<v Speaker 3>sort of put us in different factions automatically, it is

0:39:54.800 --> 0:39:59.120
<v Speaker 3>very complicated. And what you're saying, Lola, is a perfect

0:39:59.120 --> 0:40:01.640
<v Speaker 3>example of how term cult is being used as a

0:40:01.680 --> 0:40:06.480
<v Speaker 3>thought stopping technique. Like they're Republican, they're in a cult

0:40:06.840 --> 0:40:09.120
<v Speaker 3>where they voted for Trump. They're in a cult, or

0:40:09.200 --> 0:40:12.479
<v Speaker 3>they're progressive, they're woke, they're in a cult, the cult

0:40:12.520 --> 0:40:15.640
<v Speaker 3>of wokeism. Right, you know, we've all heard.

0:40:15.400 --> 0:40:17.320
<v Speaker 2>That and it's NonStop.

0:40:17.760 --> 0:40:21.759
<v Speaker 3>Can absolutely be extremes on either side. I like to

0:40:21.800 --> 0:40:24.440
<v Speaker 3>go back to again the definition of mental health. How

0:40:24.480 --> 0:40:28.200
<v Speaker 3>it's affecting how we're interpreting and interacting with people who

0:40:28.280 --> 0:40:32.280
<v Speaker 3>share diversities and opinion I think is really important. Obviously,

0:40:32.320 --> 0:40:34.880
<v Speaker 3>your own safety and mental health shouldn't be in detriment.

0:40:35.040 --> 0:40:37.560
<v Speaker 3>So for example, if you have a family member who

0:40:38.320 --> 0:40:42.279
<v Speaker 3>is a white supremacist and you don't feel safe or

0:40:42.280 --> 0:40:46.520
<v Speaker 3>comfortable interacting with them, that's a very valid reason to

0:40:46.600 --> 0:40:49.319
<v Speaker 3>not interact with them. But for other people who are

0:40:49.320 --> 0:40:51.719
<v Speaker 3>more I think there's just a lot of people who

0:40:51.800 --> 0:40:54.279
<v Speaker 3>are sort of in the gray and maybe don't know

0:40:55.160 --> 0:40:57.200
<v Speaker 3>how to look at the system and how to vote.

0:40:57.280 --> 0:41:01.400
<v Speaker 3>And I think there's more people out there than not

0:41:02.640 --> 0:41:06.200
<v Speaker 3>and looking for ways to connect and still be in

0:41:06.320 --> 0:41:10.320
<v Speaker 3>community and look for ways to help our neighbors. I

0:41:10.320 --> 0:41:14.040
<v Speaker 3>think is really important. And I worry about social media

0:41:15.080 --> 0:41:18.000
<v Speaker 3>just really putting people in such extreme echo chambers.

0:41:18.480 --> 0:41:19.239
<v Speaker 4>That's insane.

0:41:19.800 --> 0:41:21.799
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I really really worry about that.

0:41:22.040 --> 0:41:24.680
<v Speaker 1>To be honest with you, the scariest part for me,

0:41:24.719 --> 0:41:26.319
<v Speaker 1>and we talk about this all the time, is that

0:41:26.480 --> 0:41:28.200
<v Speaker 1>the comments are curated to.

0:41:28.320 --> 0:41:31.680
<v Speaker 4>Like you, you.

0:41:30.040 --> 0:41:33.400
<v Speaker 1>Know, so like your your world belief is just constantly

0:41:34.000 --> 0:41:36.400
<v Speaker 1>being confirmed to like I scrolled at the comments and

0:41:36.840 --> 0:41:40.239
<v Speaker 1>I know that's wild. So yeah, the social media thing

0:41:40.360 --> 0:41:43.160
<v Speaker 1>is just such a I know it is.

0:41:43.200 --> 0:41:45.320
<v Speaker 3>It's you want to talk about a simulation.

0:41:45.320 --> 0:41:47.080
<v Speaker 4>That exactly exactly.

0:41:47.480 --> 0:41:51.160
<v Speaker 3>It's very very hard. And after the election, I really

0:41:51.200 --> 0:41:54.440
<v Speaker 3>tried to be off social media as much as possible

0:41:54.560 --> 0:41:57.080
<v Speaker 3>and just like be in the world and why still

0:41:57.080 --> 0:42:02.400
<v Speaker 3>interacting with folks and just living Hollywood normally. And and

0:42:03.120 --> 0:42:06.560
<v Speaker 3>you know, from an intervention perspective, I've had cases where

0:42:07.320 --> 0:42:11.880
<v Speaker 3>it's certainly extreme, right where you have families who lost

0:42:11.880 --> 0:42:13.320
<v Speaker 3>a loved one to sort of the Q and on

0:42:13.440 --> 0:42:16.520
<v Speaker 3>stuff for a while, and that's less and less now

0:42:16.760 --> 0:42:20.120
<v Speaker 3>than it was back then. But I've also worked with

0:42:20.160 --> 0:42:23.279
<v Speaker 3>families who, like I had a family who had a

0:42:23.360 --> 0:42:29.879
<v Speaker 3>loved one in like a very culty left group and

0:42:30.080 --> 0:42:33.480
<v Speaker 3>I actually like it had a very like established leader

0:42:33.719 --> 0:42:37.160
<v Speaker 3>and like structure and demands and all this stuff. They

0:42:37.160 --> 0:42:41.279
<v Speaker 3>were very secretive and actually joined the group to get

0:42:41.320 --> 0:42:43.960
<v Speaker 3>eyes on the loved one who was in and see

0:42:43.960 --> 0:42:47.000
<v Speaker 3>what I could find out. And I learned I was

0:42:47.000 --> 0:42:50.319
<v Speaker 3>able to learn a lot about the structure and and

0:42:50.400 --> 0:42:52.000
<v Speaker 3>so it exists on both sides.

0:42:52.480 --> 0:42:55.279
<v Speaker 2>I think the level of black and white thinking that

0:42:55.640 --> 0:43:01.400
<v Speaker 2>we are engaging with as well when characterizing people who

0:43:01.480 --> 0:43:04.279
<v Speaker 2>are not in our group is important to consider. Like

0:43:04.560 --> 0:43:07.240
<v Speaker 2>if we if our group is telling us that everybody

0:43:07.239 --> 0:43:11.560
<v Speaker 2>else is in a cult, that also is something to investigate.

0:43:11.960 --> 0:43:14.160
<v Speaker 3>And that's where it kind of becomes the pejorative use

0:43:14.520 --> 0:43:17.440
<v Speaker 3>is when we look at you know, oh, democrats are

0:43:17.440 --> 0:43:19.520
<v Speaker 3>in a cult, or you know, if you believe in

0:43:19.560 --> 0:43:22.080
<v Speaker 3>any aspect of wocism, you're in a cult. Like it,

0:43:22.239 --> 0:43:24.919
<v Speaker 3>that's when it becomes sort of that term to put

0:43:25.080 --> 0:43:29.400
<v Speaker 3>other people down, and like it just limits conversation and

0:43:29.440 --> 0:43:33.440
<v Speaker 3>puts people on the defensive. Yeah, again, it's so nuanced,

0:43:33.480 --> 0:43:37.839
<v Speaker 3>but we're not taught to think this nuanced about stuff, and.

0:43:37.760 --> 0:43:42.200
<v Speaker 2>It's not comfortable, and like it requires stopping and thinking,

0:43:42.440 --> 0:43:44.960
<v Speaker 2>which our brains do not like to do because we

0:43:45.000 --> 0:43:49.719
<v Speaker 2>take mental shortcuts to conserve energy in our minds. Like yeah,

0:43:49.760 --> 0:43:53.200
<v Speaker 2>and holding contradiction is hard, but it's also so important.

0:43:53.800 --> 0:43:55.720
<v Speaker 2>I would love to now talk a little bit about

0:43:55.880 --> 0:43:58.560
<v Speaker 2>the intervention work and some of the philosophies that you

0:43:58.680 --> 0:44:01.440
<v Speaker 2>kind of employ in that work, because you know, we

0:44:01.560 --> 0:44:04.399
<v Speaker 2>talked about this obviously in our interview with Patrick and Joe.

0:44:04.440 --> 0:44:06.439
<v Speaker 2>But it's been a minute. So for those who haven't

0:44:06.480 --> 0:44:11.399
<v Speaker 2>heard that, cult intervention today is very different from our

0:44:11.600 --> 0:44:14.440
<v Speaker 2>traditional idea of cult deprogramming from like the seventies. Can

0:44:14.480 --> 0:44:16.080
<v Speaker 2>you explain what sort of the differences.

0:44:17.040 --> 0:44:22.520
<v Speaker 3>Yes, So, the cult intervention field, this largely got kicked

0:44:22.560 --> 0:44:29.839
<v Speaker 3>off around the time of Jonestown. Sadly, I think that

0:44:30.600 --> 0:44:36.000
<v Speaker 3>families who saw what happened in Jonestown, which was extremely tragic,

0:44:36.960 --> 0:44:39.360
<v Speaker 3>if they had a kid who they thought was maybe

0:44:39.400 --> 0:44:43.120
<v Speaker 3>involved in a cult like group, they were worried that

0:44:43.200 --> 0:44:45.320
<v Speaker 3>the same thing would happen to them of what happened

0:44:45.320 --> 0:44:49.760
<v Speaker 3>at Jonestown, And there wasn't a ton of information back

0:44:49.800 --> 0:44:54.480
<v Speaker 3>in like the seventies as to like how to help

0:44:54.560 --> 0:44:58.040
<v Speaker 3>someone who they believed was in a harmful group or relationship,

0:44:58.680 --> 0:45:05.319
<v Speaker 3>and so programming was what was done, and it was

0:45:06.400 --> 0:45:10.480
<v Speaker 3>highly unethical, It was very sad It contributed to a

0:45:10.520 --> 0:45:14.040
<v Speaker 3>lot of trauma. It was a course of practice that

0:45:14.280 --> 0:45:17.920
<v Speaker 3>started in the mid nineteen seventies and ended in the

0:45:17.960 --> 0:45:24.800
<v Speaker 3>early nineteen nineties. So it involved like highly confrontational methods

0:45:25.360 --> 0:45:30.800
<v Speaker 3>to share or force information upon a cult involved person

0:45:31.280 --> 0:45:35.000
<v Speaker 3>in order to elicit an emotional response. The father of

0:45:35.040 --> 0:45:39.880
<v Speaker 3>de programming his name was Ted Patrick, and he would

0:45:39.960 --> 0:45:44.160
<v Speaker 3>hire different teams to go out and oftentimes kidnap people

0:45:44.200 --> 0:45:46.920
<v Speaker 3>who were in these groups. They would be thrown into vans.

0:45:47.520 --> 0:45:50.480
<v Speaker 3>They actually feared for their lives. Some of them thought

0:45:50.480 --> 0:45:51.759
<v Speaker 3>that they were going to die because they didn't know

0:45:51.800 --> 0:45:54.719
<v Speaker 3>what was going on. And they would take them to

0:45:54.760 --> 0:45:59.240
<v Speaker 3>different hotel rooms or cabins or places and would forcibly

0:45:59.280 --> 0:46:03.000
<v Speaker 3>share inform about why the group is bad. And the

0:46:03.000 --> 0:46:06.640
<v Speaker 3>theory behind this was that if they extracted them from

0:46:06.680 --> 0:46:10.720
<v Speaker 3>their cultic environment that they would just snap. They would

0:46:10.760 --> 0:46:13.680
<v Speaker 3>like come out of this like hypnotic state of being

0:46:13.680 --> 0:46:16.960
<v Speaker 3>in a cult. And obviously that doesn't work for a

0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:20.239
<v Speaker 3>lot of reasons. But horrific stuff happened during that time.

0:46:20.320 --> 0:46:22.560
<v Speaker 3>I mean, there was a young woman I did a

0:46:22.600 --> 0:46:26.840
<v Speaker 3>story on this on Instagram named Stephanie who was her

0:46:26.880 --> 0:46:30.160
<v Speaker 3>parents hired a programmer because she was in a lesbian relationship.

0:46:31.480 --> 0:46:36.600
<v Speaker 3>So it also affected queer folks. And Stephanie's story was

0:46:36.680 --> 0:46:41.760
<v Speaker 3>horrific in that the men who programmed her, she said

0:46:41.760 --> 0:46:46.719
<v Speaker 3>that she was raped by them. So it's horrible the

0:46:46.760 --> 0:46:48.520
<v Speaker 3>stuff that happened during that time. There was a lot

0:46:48.560 --> 0:46:53.520
<v Speaker 3>of lawsuits. It really informed people like Pat and Joe,

0:46:53.880 --> 0:46:57.960
<v Speaker 3>So Pat Ryan and Joseph Kelly had left groups around

0:46:58.000 --> 0:47:00.600
<v Speaker 3>the time that there programming was happening. They left groups

0:47:00.600 --> 0:47:03.160
<v Speaker 3>all on their own. And it's not perfect research, but

0:47:03.200 --> 0:47:05.640
<v Speaker 3>research shows us that most people who join groups leave

0:47:05.680 --> 0:47:09.000
<v Speaker 3>them on their own for different reasons. Megan, you left

0:47:09.000 --> 0:47:10.839
<v Speaker 3>a group, Lola, you left a group. I left a group.

0:47:10.880 --> 0:47:12.320
<v Speaker 3>It was all for different reasons.

0:47:13.120 --> 0:47:14.839
<v Speaker 4>And no one kidnapped us, and.

0:47:14.800 --> 0:47:18.040
<v Speaker 3>No one kidnapped us. That's exactly right. At some point,

0:47:18.320 --> 0:47:24.200
<v Speaker 3>our shelf of doubts or cognitive dissonance, it breaks, and

0:47:24.200 --> 0:47:27.840
<v Speaker 3>it's different for everybody, and there's different reasons why everyone leaves.

0:47:28.719 --> 0:47:31.960
<v Speaker 3>There was a research study that was done and there

0:47:32.000 --> 0:47:35.759
<v Speaker 3>was ninety four parents who completed this questionnaire. But out

0:47:35.800 --> 0:47:39.799
<v Speaker 3>of the different cases, sixty eight percent of people were

0:47:39.840 --> 0:47:44.320
<v Speaker 3>forcibly abducted. Thirty seven percent of those too programmed returned

0:47:44.360 --> 0:47:47.920
<v Speaker 3>back to the cult, which is very high. The programming

0:47:47.960 --> 0:47:50.879
<v Speaker 3>took an average of eight and a half days, which

0:47:50.920 --> 0:47:53.200
<v Speaker 3>is crazy to think about that someone is like in

0:47:53.239 --> 0:47:56.440
<v Speaker 3>a room being a program for eight and a half days.

0:47:57.520 --> 0:48:00.839
<v Speaker 3>Ten out of sixty two programming ended up in very

0:48:00.840 --> 0:48:03.880
<v Speaker 3>substantial lawsuits, and there was more. There was way more

0:48:03.920 --> 0:48:06.000
<v Speaker 3>than just ten. But this is just within the survey

0:48:06.040 --> 0:48:09.640
<v Speaker 3>that was done. And even like people like Rick Ross

0:48:09.640 --> 0:48:12.359
<v Speaker 3>who runs a cult education institute, he keeps a lot

0:48:12.400 --> 0:48:15.640
<v Speaker 3>of really good group archives. He participated into programmings and

0:48:15.719 --> 0:48:18.640
<v Speaker 3>was sued back in the day. So there was a

0:48:18.680 --> 0:48:20.279
<v Speaker 3>lot of people who were still on the scene who

0:48:20.360 --> 0:48:23.879
<v Speaker 3>participated or were involved in some way into programmings. Pat

0:48:23.920 --> 0:48:27.359
<v Speaker 3>and Joe were like, there has to be a better way.

0:48:28.120 --> 0:48:32.240
<v Speaker 3>This is ridiculous, this is so much harm being contributed here.

0:48:32.960 --> 0:48:36.520
<v Speaker 3>What they did was they wanted to create like a

0:48:37.360 --> 0:48:44.080
<v Speaker 3>ethical criteria sort of also like a competency criteria. So

0:48:44.239 --> 0:48:48.040
<v Speaker 3>they started to distinguish professionals who wanted to work more

0:48:48.080 --> 0:48:52.600
<v Speaker 3>ethically as exit counselors back in like the nineteen eighties,

0:48:53.280 --> 0:48:56.439
<v Speaker 3>so parents knew if they hired an exit counselor, they're

0:48:56.480 --> 0:48:59.480
<v Speaker 3>not going to kidnap their kid like a programmer would.

0:49:00.400 --> 0:49:03.680
<v Speaker 3>And so they started using the term exit counseling to

0:49:04.080 --> 0:49:09.239
<v Speaker 3>view the approaches more voluntary and educational and ethical. But

0:49:10.080 --> 0:49:13.600
<v Speaker 3>there was also an additional problem in that anyone could

0:49:13.680 --> 0:49:17.600
<v Speaker 3>claim to be an exit counselor, like anyone can claim

0:49:17.640 --> 0:49:20.480
<v Speaker 3>to do that and also exit counseling into programming. It

0:49:20.520 --> 0:49:24.280
<v Speaker 3>was still during that time where like programming was the norm,

0:49:24.360 --> 0:49:28.960
<v Speaker 3>so the terms were used interchangeably, and so the labels

0:49:29.000 --> 0:49:35.360
<v Speaker 3>failed to indicate someone's actions, educations and ethics. So in

0:49:35.440 --> 0:49:40.480
<v Speaker 3>a move to professionalize the label in the field and

0:49:40.600 --> 0:49:46.719
<v Speaker 3>establish competency criteria, Carol Giambalvo, Joseph Kelly, Patrick Ryan, and

0:49:46.960 --> 0:49:52.400
<v Speaker 3>Madeline Tobias developed ethical standards in the nineteen nineties for

0:49:52.719 --> 0:49:56.280
<v Speaker 3>what they call thought reform consultants, and you can actually

0:49:56.360 --> 0:50:01.399
<v Speaker 3>look up the ethical criteria for Thought Reform Consolltants, and

0:50:02.680 --> 0:50:08.960
<v Speaker 3>they wrote ethical standards and talked about insights into the

0:50:08.960 --> 0:50:14.160
<v Speaker 3>principles and practical applications of thought reform through open dialogue,

0:50:14.360 --> 0:50:19.160
<v Speaker 3>educational resources, and personal testimonies that adheres to legal and

0:50:19.280 --> 0:50:24.560
<v Speaker 3>ethical standards, ensuring a respectful and informative experience. So their

0:50:24.600 --> 0:50:29.560
<v Speaker 3>ethical standards were patterned off of ethical codes for like

0:50:30.440 --> 0:50:34.839
<v Speaker 3>the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, National Association

0:50:34.920 --> 0:50:38.520
<v Speaker 3>of Social Workers, Standards for a Private Practice of Clinical

0:50:38.560 --> 0:50:43.640
<v Speaker 3>social Workers, American Psychiatric Association. And they also took a

0:50:43.719 --> 0:50:46.880
<v Speaker 3>very radical stance, and that was the purpose of exit

0:50:46.920 --> 0:50:51.200
<v Speaker 3>counseling or thought reform consultation was actually not to get

0:50:51.239 --> 0:50:55.640
<v Speaker 3>someone out of a cult. That may be the desired

0:50:55.680 --> 0:50:58.920
<v Speaker 3>outcome for families, but the purpose was to give the

0:50:58.960 --> 0:51:02.640
<v Speaker 3>group member the inform nation that enables them to make

0:51:02.640 --> 0:51:03.880
<v Speaker 3>a fully informed choice.

0:51:04.239 --> 0:51:06.359
<v Speaker 2>What does that look like? What does that mean?

0:51:06.520 --> 0:51:06.600
<v Speaker 3>Like?

0:51:06.719 --> 0:51:10.720
<v Speaker 2>Can you actually intervene with someone who is in a

0:51:10.760 --> 0:51:11.520
<v Speaker 2>coercive group?

0:51:12.719 --> 0:51:17.279
<v Speaker 3>So, in Layman's terms, what that looks like? Now, Pat

0:51:17.320 --> 0:51:21.120
<v Speaker 3>Ryan and Joseph Kelly's approach since like the nineties, into

0:51:21.120 --> 0:51:25.759
<v Speaker 3>programmings ended in the early nineteen nineties. So again just

0:51:25.760 --> 0:51:30.120
<v Speaker 3>to summarize, the label went from to programming to exit

0:51:30.160 --> 0:51:34.880
<v Speaker 3>counseling to thought reform consultation. And our sort of modern

0:51:35.040 --> 0:51:39.200
<v Speaker 3>approach is cult intervention specialists. The thing is is when

0:51:39.239 --> 0:51:41.600
<v Speaker 3>you think of Google and SEO, people don't google thought

0:51:41.640 --> 0:51:45.920
<v Speaker 3>reform consults because they know what that means. So I'm like,

0:51:46.160 --> 0:51:48.640
<v Speaker 3>let's just be cult intervention specialists ided here to this

0:51:48.719 --> 0:51:53.080
<v Speaker 3>code of ethics. So that's what we do. And our

0:51:53.120 --> 0:51:56.239
<v Speaker 3>approach when we work with families is to do no

0:51:56.360 --> 0:52:00.680
<v Speaker 3>harm so the individual, and what we mean by that

0:52:00.960 --> 0:52:09.000
<v Speaker 3>is we only recommend moving forward to interventions if there's

0:52:09.080 --> 0:52:13.960
<v Speaker 3>truly opportunities. And if it makes sense when we say

0:52:14.000 --> 0:52:16.440
<v Speaker 3>we do no harm is we work very slowly. We

0:52:16.520 --> 0:52:20.400
<v Speaker 3>see if we can affect change within the current family system.

0:52:20.920 --> 0:52:24.279
<v Speaker 3>The family members already have established rapport, even if it's

0:52:24.320 --> 0:52:27.279
<v Speaker 3>not great with the person who's in the cultic group

0:52:27.320 --> 0:52:30.920
<v Speaker 3>or relationship, they already have a connection, and if they don't,

0:52:31.000 --> 0:52:34.080
<v Speaker 3>we work first to rebuild the connection or to find

0:52:34.120 --> 0:52:39.879
<v Speaker 3>ways to rebuild the relationship. Sometimes families inadvertently contribute more

0:52:39.920 --> 0:52:42.640
<v Speaker 3>harm just because they don't know how to talk to

0:52:42.680 --> 0:52:44.520
<v Speaker 3>someone who's in a cult, and that's why we get

0:52:44.520 --> 0:52:47.720
<v Speaker 3>called into help. And so we see how much work

0:52:48.280 --> 0:52:51.640
<v Speaker 3>we can do, either via coaching or what messages we

0:52:51.680 --> 0:52:55.440
<v Speaker 3>can send through the family to their loved one to

0:52:55.520 --> 0:52:58.879
<v Speaker 3>see what will be effective. It's a much more low

0:52:59.040 --> 0:53:06.879
<v Speaker 3>risk approach than doing an intervention. And when I say intervention,

0:53:07.520 --> 0:53:11.160
<v Speaker 3>people think we talk about drug and alcohol interventions. Addiction

0:53:11.320 --> 0:53:14.879
<v Speaker 3>is not the same. That's being indoctrinated into a high

0:53:14.920 --> 0:53:17.839
<v Speaker 3>control group, and so it's actually a very different thing.

0:53:19.120 --> 0:53:24.320
<v Speaker 3>I have done interventions with Pat and Joe, and with interventions,

0:53:24.440 --> 0:53:27.920
<v Speaker 3>what makes it different is the person who's involved in

0:53:27.960 --> 0:53:32.760
<v Speaker 3>the group wants to actually talk to us we don't

0:53:32.880 --> 0:53:35.560
<v Speaker 3>force ourselves to talk with them. They have to want

0:53:35.600 --> 0:53:38.160
<v Speaker 3>to participate and get to know us and talk to

0:53:38.239 --> 0:53:42.560
<v Speaker 3>us in order for that to happen. Now setting the

0:53:42.640 --> 0:53:46.160
<v Speaker 3>stage for a good opening, that's a totally different sort

0:53:46.200 --> 0:53:50.479
<v Speaker 3>of set of preparation. But I've done interventions with Pat

0:53:50.480 --> 0:53:54.680
<v Speaker 3>and Joe before where we talked to someone who was

0:53:54.719 --> 0:53:58.440
<v Speaker 3>away from let's just say, an abusive relationship for a

0:53:58.480 --> 0:54:01.440
<v Speaker 3>period of time. We had a history of going back

0:54:01.760 --> 0:54:04.320
<v Speaker 3>to the relationship, and so we had a good window

0:54:04.320 --> 0:54:06.239
<v Speaker 3>where they wanted to meet us and talk with us,

0:54:07.320 --> 0:54:10.440
<v Speaker 3>and we were able to share pretty openly about our

0:54:10.480 --> 0:54:14.760
<v Speaker 3>own experiences within groups because it was so different from

0:54:15.239 --> 0:54:18.239
<v Speaker 3>their actual circumstance and being in an abusive one on

0:54:18.239 --> 0:54:23.280
<v Speaker 3>one relationship that they were really curious about our experiences,

0:54:24.120 --> 0:54:27.000
<v Speaker 3>and so using our own stories is again that third

0:54:27.040 --> 0:54:30.560
<v Speaker 3>party processing, like we talked about earlier, as a tool

0:54:30.719 --> 0:54:34.600
<v Speaker 3>to teach them certain concepts that were applicable to their situation.

0:54:36.160 --> 0:54:38.680
<v Speaker 3>It was actually quite effective, and a lot of the

0:54:38.719 --> 0:54:43.600
<v Speaker 3>intervention process is the rapport building. Like we when we

0:54:43.640 --> 0:54:46.680
<v Speaker 3>come in to do an intervention, we're not doing it

0:54:46.840 --> 0:54:53.520
<v Speaker 3>against the person who's involved. We're actually coming in and

0:54:53.880 --> 0:54:58.160
<v Speaker 3>telling the cult involved love one. Hey, we've been in groups. Two,

0:54:58.520 --> 0:55:02.319
<v Speaker 3>We've had lots of good experiences in groups too. How

0:55:02.320 --> 0:55:06.080
<v Speaker 3>can we help your family understand you better? So that's

0:55:06.160 --> 0:55:08.680
<v Speaker 3>the approach that we take, and it yields a way

0:55:08.760 --> 0:55:12.920
<v Speaker 3>less defensive. It then gets the whole family involved because

0:55:13.000 --> 0:55:16.759
<v Speaker 3>they then see us as allies and we can explore

0:55:17.000 --> 0:55:22.560
<v Speaker 3>quite openly their concerns, the loved one's concerns, and a

0:55:22.640 --> 0:55:25.880
<v Speaker 3>much less defensive atmosphere. And what we do do is

0:55:25.920 --> 0:55:29.520
<v Speaker 3>we prep families for this process. We tell them, you know,

0:55:30.120 --> 0:55:32.560
<v Speaker 3>this is kind of how the intervention looks and works,

0:55:32.600 --> 0:55:34.719
<v Speaker 3>and here are some questions you can ask us that

0:55:34.760 --> 0:55:36.799
<v Speaker 3>we think would be really good for your loved one

0:55:36.840 --> 0:55:41.520
<v Speaker 3>to like hear. So some of it is kind of

0:55:41.719 --> 0:55:46.440
<v Speaker 3>scripted out, but it's also like very intentional in like

0:55:46.480 --> 0:55:50.520
<v Speaker 3>the questions that we're like we're trying to Basically, when

0:55:50.520 --> 0:55:53.120
<v Speaker 3>it comes to interventions, you need the loved one to

0:55:53.160 --> 0:55:56.880
<v Speaker 3>put the pieces together themselves. You can't spoon feed someone

0:55:56.920 --> 0:56:01.200
<v Speaker 3>in a cult that kind of information. And so how

0:56:01.200 --> 0:56:04.760
<v Speaker 3>do we select effective messages to sort of talk about

0:56:04.760 --> 0:56:08.720
<v Speaker 3>in an open format? Pat Ryan talks a lot about

0:56:09.120 --> 0:56:12.640
<v Speaker 3>he had on the show he left his cult. Shortly after,

0:56:13.560 --> 0:56:17.200
<v Speaker 3>back in like the eighties, his dad called him and

0:56:17.200 --> 0:56:20.960
<v Speaker 3>he said, your sister's involved in this crazy Christian group.

0:56:21.440 --> 0:56:23.799
<v Speaker 3>It was back then, I think it was the Way International,

0:56:24.640 --> 0:56:27.200
<v Speaker 3>and he's I guess the dad called in a de

0:56:27.280 --> 0:56:31.560
<v Speaker 3>programmer because that was just common what they did. And

0:56:32.920 --> 0:56:35.000
<v Speaker 3>I don't think she was abducted though in this instance

0:56:35.080 --> 0:56:38.279
<v Speaker 3>or anything horrible like that. But the person came in

0:56:38.320 --> 0:56:41.640
<v Speaker 3>the sort of programmer and he asked Pat to be

0:56:41.800 --> 0:56:46.160
<v Speaker 3>involved in his sister's to programming. That is still a

0:56:46.200 --> 0:56:49.520
<v Speaker 3>part of a Hindu group at this point, and it

0:56:49.600 --> 0:56:54.399
<v Speaker 3>was through watching his sister's sort of deprogramming that helped

0:56:54.440 --> 0:56:57.360
<v Speaker 3>him decide to leave his own group because it wasn't

0:56:57.360 --> 0:57:01.919
<v Speaker 3>at all directed towards him have to be on the defensive, right,

0:57:02.120 --> 0:57:06.000
<v Speaker 3>It was, you know, directed towards another person. And he's

0:57:06.040 --> 0:57:08.960
<v Speaker 3>sitting there listening to what the person's talking about. He's like,

0:57:09.080 --> 0:57:12.640
<v Speaker 3>oh shit, like I think I'm in my own.

0:57:13.719 --> 0:57:16.000
<v Speaker 2>Wow, it's amazing how that happens.

0:57:16.320 --> 0:57:20.120
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So we we only do interventions if it makes sense,

0:57:20.480 --> 0:57:23.160
<v Speaker 3>if there's an opening. Most of the work we do

0:57:23.280 --> 0:57:26.800
<v Speaker 3>we work within the family system because knowing that most

0:57:26.840 --> 0:57:29.600
<v Speaker 3>people leave cults on their own, How can we make

0:57:29.640 --> 0:57:33.200
<v Speaker 3>the family system a safe and supportive place again for

0:57:33.280 --> 0:57:35.600
<v Speaker 3>that person to exit too, How do we make the

0:57:35.640 --> 0:57:39.320
<v Speaker 3>family system a place where they can be received without

0:57:39.360 --> 0:57:42.160
<v Speaker 3>feeling guilt or shame for being involved in a group.

0:57:43.480 --> 0:57:45.920
<v Speaker 3>So that's I would say, the majority of the work

0:57:45.960 --> 0:57:46.400
<v Speaker 3>that we do.

0:57:46.880 --> 0:57:52.000
<v Speaker 2>So it's more about reducing conflict between the family members

0:57:52.080 --> 0:57:55.600
<v Speaker 2>about it, and as they rebuild that relationship together, that

0:57:55.640 --> 0:57:58.560
<v Speaker 2>can create a safer space to exit if they if

0:57:58.560 --> 0:57:59.360
<v Speaker 2>and when they're ready.

0:57:59.440 --> 0:58:00.720
<v Speaker 3>It's a harm reduction model.

0:58:01.240 --> 0:58:04.240
<v Speaker 4>And if there's an accidental deconstruction, then.

0:58:04.160 --> 0:58:09.600
<v Speaker 3>Oop, that's exactly right, it's a harm reduction model. I

0:58:09.640 --> 0:58:14.360
<v Speaker 3>think the trickier part is families hire us thinking that

0:58:14.400 --> 0:58:16.040
<v Speaker 3>we can just get their loved one out of a group,

0:58:16.960 --> 0:58:20.080
<v Speaker 3>and part of the work we do is educating them

0:58:20.160 --> 0:58:23.680
<v Speaker 3>about why that's not We don't have the magic words

0:58:23.680 --> 0:58:27.840
<v Speaker 3>to just tell someone to leave a cult, and how

0:58:28.000 --> 0:58:31.320
<v Speaker 3>we can respect their autonomy through the process, and so

0:58:31.360 --> 0:58:35.040
<v Speaker 3>it takes a lot of education. And also the families

0:58:35.080 --> 0:58:38.720
<v Speaker 3>have to be willing to change what they're currently doing,

0:58:39.440 --> 0:58:42.760
<v Speaker 3>which can be hard because what they're doing has not

0:58:42.920 --> 0:58:46.360
<v Speaker 3>been working, or else they wouldn't have contacted us. And

0:58:46.440 --> 0:58:50.320
<v Speaker 3>so families have to be open to us bringing in

0:58:50.360 --> 0:58:55.480
<v Speaker 3>a therapist to work with them, to receiving feedback and criticism,

0:58:55.720 --> 0:59:00.200
<v Speaker 3>to being challenged by us on certain things. I think

0:59:00.240 --> 0:59:04.200
<v Speaker 3>that's the hardest buy in I think for families is

0:59:06.000 --> 0:59:09.200
<v Speaker 3>they think they have an idea as to how cults work.

0:59:09.720 --> 0:59:13.840
<v Speaker 3>They just want their loved one out, But there may

0:59:13.880 --> 0:59:15.800
<v Speaker 3>have been some very valid reasons as to why they're

0:59:15.840 --> 0:59:18.160
<v Speaker 3>loved one enjoying that group in the first place. So

0:59:18.200 --> 0:59:20.960
<v Speaker 3>we have to kind of like it's just a very

0:59:21.160 --> 0:59:25.120
<v Speaker 3>it's a much more investive process and requires change, and

0:59:25.160 --> 0:59:29.320
<v Speaker 3>like also the families accepting more personal responsibility, if that

0:59:29.400 --> 0:59:33.840
<v Speaker 3>makes sense, And so it's not an easy fix.

0:59:33.920 --> 0:59:35.080
<v Speaker 4>It's work for everyone.

0:59:43.720 --> 0:59:47.200
<v Speaker 2>One of the dangers of the sort of cult intervention

0:59:47.360 --> 0:59:51.320
<v Speaker 2>space is that there are people and families who are

0:59:51.440 --> 0:59:55.600
<v Speaker 2>in such a vulnerable place and so desperate and willing

0:59:55.640 --> 0:59:58.600
<v Speaker 2>to spend all their money and try whatever it takes.

0:59:59.200 --> 1:00:05.760
<v Speaker 2>And it's so crucial that there be accountability within the

1:00:05.800 --> 1:00:09.360
<v Speaker 2>community of the intervention folks. Can you talk a little

1:00:09.360 --> 1:00:11.480
<v Speaker 2>bit about what that can look like.

1:00:11.880 --> 1:00:14.120
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, so it doesn't become another cult.

1:00:13.880 --> 1:00:20.000
<v Speaker 3>Exactly, Yeah, especially because there's not a career path towards

1:00:20.000 --> 1:00:24.760
<v Speaker 3>becoming a cult intervention specialist. As a cult intervention specialist

1:00:24.840 --> 1:00:27.480
<v Speaker 3>as defined by the code of ethics that I adhere to.

1:00:27.760 --> 1:00:32.320
<v Speaker 3>In that patent Joe adhere to, there are requirements in

1:00:32.360 --> 1:00:38.320
<v Speaker 3>that we have a responsibility as consultants towards professionalism, so

1:00:38.880 --> 1:00:40.920
<v Speaker 3>we're required to give a portion of our time to

1:00:41.000 --> 1:00:43.920
<v Speaker 3>related work for which there is little or no financial return.

1:00:44.920 --> 1:00:45.160
<v Speaker 2>Love.

1:00:45.880 --> 1:00:50.560
<v Speaker 3>I volunteer and run a meetup out here in Portland,

1:00:50.920 --> 1:00:52.880
<v Speaker 3>and I even volunteer to run a conference out here

1:00:52.880 --> 1:00:55.920
<v Speaker 3>in Portland this past year to get education and resources

1:00:55.960 --> 1:01:00.320
<v Speaker 3>out to survivors and helping professionals. So that's one criteria.

1:01:01.160 --> 1:01:06.960
<v Speaker 3>Another criteria is we have an obligation to continued professional growth.

1:01:07.960 --> 1:01:10.800
<v Speaker 3>We have to be an active participation with other fellow

1:01:10.840 --> 1:01:16.720
<v Speaker 3>consultants as well as participation in research and public education programs.

1:01:17.280 --> 1:01:20.840
<v Speaker 3>And I do that. I actively work when we have

1:01:20.920 --> 1:01:24.600
<v Speaker 3>families who come to us. I never take a case

1:01:24.640 --> 1:01:29.840
<v Speaker 3>by myself. Pat and Joe also don't either unless it's

1:01:29.840 --> 1:01:32.880
<v Speaker 3>a situation where there's like very specific hourly work, like

1:01:32.960 --> 1:01:37.880
<v Speaker 3>could you provide research or information on this right, But

1:01:37.920 --> 1:01:42.400
<v Speaker 3>when it comes to giving any type of advice or strategy,

1:01:43.680 --> 1:01:46.960
<v Speaker 3>I work alongside a specialized team. It doesn't have to

1:01:47.000 --> 1:01:50.320
<v Speaker 3>always involve Pat and Joe. Sometimes I just pull in

1:01:50.440 --> 1:01:54.080
<v Speaker 3>Joe on a case. And we also like to bring

1:01:54.120 --> 1:01:56.680
<v Speaker 3>in a therapist, even if it's just for a few

1:01:56.680 --> 1:02:00.160
<v Speaker 3>hours during the assessment, to work with families. Joe and

1:02:00.240 --> 1:02:04.000
<v Speaker 3>I are more of the strategic consultants who come in

1:02:04.080 --> 1:02:07.640
<v Speaker 3>and we're doing cult recovery and education, and we're doing

1:02:07.720 --> 1:02:10.560
<v Speaker 3>the strategy as to how to move forward. Someone like

1:02:10.600 --> 1:02:13.080
<v Speaker 3>a mental health professional can come in and check in

1:02:13.120 --> 1:02:16.000
<v Speaker 3>on the family, how are they doing with all this information,

1:02:16.240 --> 1:02:19.240
<v Speaker 3>and also work a little bit with like family systems therapy,

1:02:19.240 --> 1:02:21.680
<v Speaker 3>if you know what I mean, like working within the

1:02:21.720 --> 1:02:27.120
<v Speaker 3>family dynamics. So I see that as an opportunity for

1:02:27.760 --> 1:02:33.400
<v Speaker 3>accountability and collaboration. So I never take cases by myself.

1:02:33.440 --> 1:02:36.600
<v Speaker 3>And it also reflects our code of ethics that we

1:02:36.640 --> 1:02:40.560
<v Speaker 3>adhere to. And you know, we have to go through

1:02:40.560 --> 1:02:45.120
<v Speaker 3>continuous efforts also to improve our practices, teaching services and research.

1:02:45.920 --> 1:02:49.040
<v Speaker 3>Me getting my masters in the psychology of course of control.

1:02:49.440 --> 1:02:54.400
<v Speaker 3>I have research that's pending publication. My experience working directly

1:02:54.440 --> 1:02:57.640
<v Speaker 3>with survivors going on seven years now, I think is

1:02:58.280 --> 1:03:02.400
<v Speaker 3>really important. And so yeah, it's tricky in that like

1:03:02.480 --> 1:03:05.600
<v Speaker 3>we're basically consultants at the end of the day, but

1:03:05.760 --> 1:03:07.600
<v Speaker 3>we don't work.

1:03:07.320 --> 1:03:10.360
<v Speaker 2>Alone either well. And one of the things we talk

1:03:10.400 --> 1:03:14.440
<v Speaker 2>about a lot here is this idea of like easy

1:03:14.480 --> 1:03:18.240
<v Speaker 2>answers and certainty. Part of the reason that cults can

1:03:18.280 --> 1:03:22.280
<v Speaker 2>be so powerful is because they often will provide you

1:03:22.360 --> 1:03:24.360
<v Speaker 2>some of those answers and some of that certainty. But

1:03:24.440 --> 1:03:27.000
<v Speaker 2>real life doesn't necessarily work like that, And the same

1:03:27.080 --> 1:03:30.520
<v Speaker 2>thing is true in the cult intervention space when there

1:03:30.840 --> 1:03:34.680
<v Speaker 2>are promises being made, there's certainty that this will work

1:03:34.800 --> 1:03:37.560
<v Speaker 2>and you will get them out. Like that is irresponsible

1:03:37.640 --> 1:03:42.080
<v Speaker 2>language because that is also not how actual reality. Necessarily

1:03:42.120 --> 1:03:45.560
<v Speaker 2>we cannot control outcomes of other people.

1:03:46.080 --> 1:03:49.480
<v Speaker 3>It only just contributes to more harm. Right, If someone

1:03:49.520 --> 1:03:51.320
<v Speaker 3>tells you that they can get your loved one out

1:03:51.320 --> 1:03:55.120
<v Speaker 3>of a cult in six months run, yeah, yeah, it's

1:03:55.160 --> 1:04:01.000
<v Speaker 3>not realistic in that these situations are so psychodynamic. Someone's

1:04:01.000 --> 1:04:03.040
<v Speaker 3>cult involvement can change from day to day to week

1:04:03.080 --> 1:04:04.720
<v Speaker 3>to week to month to month, Like we don't know

1:04:04.720 --> 1:04:07.480
<v Speaker 3>when they're going to leave or the circumstances surrounding that,

1:04:08.040 --> 1:04:11.040
<v Speaker 3>and also you're not going to be the sort of

1:04:11.240 --> 1:04:14.240
<v Speaker 3>it contributes to like saviorism. I feel like the sort

1:04:14.240 --> 1:04:16.919
<v Speaker 3>of viroism complex where you can be the person who

1:04:18.200 --> 1:04:22.000
<v Speaker 3>solves this complex problem. And the way I want to

1:04:22.040 --> 1:04:25.240
<v Speaker 3>look at it is we're just sort of one cog

1:04:25.280 --> 1:04:29.960
<v Speaker 3>in the machine for people and their experiences. People are

1:04:30.000 --> 1:04:34.680
<v Speaker 3>having their own little experiences in cults. They love it,

1:04:34.800 --> 1:04:38.400
<v Speaker 3>they hate it, they're exhausted, they're doing great. You know,

1:04:38.440 --> 1:04:41.200
<v Speaker 3>it's all over the place, and so they're on their

1:04:41.200 --> 1:04:45.400
<v Speaker 3>own track. And messages that we can send through the family,

1:04:46.840 --> 1:04:51.680
<v Speaker 3>you know, certainly can help, you know, with their own

1:04:51.720 --> 1:04:55.919
<v Speaker 3>progression through the group. But promising that you can get

1:04:55.960 --> 1:04:58.320
<v Speaker 3>someone out of a cult, or that if you're hired

1:04:58.360 --> 1:05:03.360
<v Speaker 3>on a case that you just you can't. It's unethical

1:05:03.400 --> 1:05:06.280
<v Speaker 3>to make those promises. And I'm very clear with families

1:05:06.320 --> 1:05:09.080
<v Speaker 3>from the beginning are where we stand on this ethical

1:05:09.080 --> 1:05:11.800
<v Speaker 3>stuff and what we can and can't do. And also

1:05:12.000 --> 1:05:13.960
<v Speaker 3>we work a part of a team, like we are

1:05:13.960 --> 1:05:17.880
<v Speaker 3>in this as a team with the family, we like,

1:05:17.960 --> 1:05:21.480
<v Speaker 3>we're all invested on this. Yeah. I see a big

1:05:21.520 --> 1:05:23.919
<v Speaker 3>part of my work as just helping families not feel

1:05:23.960 --> 1:05:25.360
<v Speaker 3>alone in the process.

1:05:25.760 --> 1:05:28.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Again, you can really repeat some of these cult

1:05:28.960 --> 1:05:31.960
<v Speaker 2>dynamics when someone is presenting themselves as the ultimate authority

1:05:31.960 --> 1:05:33.840
<v Speaker 2>on what will or will not happen, how it will

1:05:33.920 --> 1:05:36.640
<v Speaker 2>or will not work. We just we just don't know.

1:05:36.800 --> 1:05:40.560
<v Speaker 2>We can we can do our best to facilitate information

1:05:40.800 --> 1:05:44.880
<v Speaker 2>and you know, support, but we don't have the answers.

1:05:44.920 --> 1:05:47.200
<v Speaker 2>And if an interventionist to saying that they do have

1:05:47.240 --> 1:05:50.400
<v Speaker 2>the answers, that that is just another example of a

1:05:50.480 --> 1:05:51.720
<v Speaker 2>cult dynamic happening.

1:05:52.080 --> 1:05:56.040
<v Speaker 3>We don't even give specific advice until after an eight

1:05:56.080 --> 1:06:01.440
<v Speaker 3>hour assessment families. We need to know as much information

1:06:01.480 --> 1:06:04.720
<v Speaker 3>as possible. We do interviews with individuals, we get detailed

1:06:04.720 --> 1:06:08.400
<v Speaker 3>intake forms, We spend hours working with the family to

1:06:08.480 --> 1:06:11.880
<v Speaker 3>understand the situation before we give any kind of specific

1:06:11.960 --> 1:06:14.160
<v Speaker 3>advice as to how to move forward. I can give

1:06:14.160 --> 1:06:17.480
<v Speaker 3>people general advice like don't criticize the group, take the

1:06:17.480 --> 1:06:20.240
<v Speaker 3>word cult out of your language, and things like that,

1:06:20.320 --> 1:06:25.560
<v Speaker 3>but we move very slowly and that's part of our

1:06:25.640 --> 1:06:31.320
<v Speaker 3>do no harm approach. People who move very quickly towards

1:06:31.480 --> 1:06:35.280
<v Speaker 3>just gathering the whole family and doing an intervention I

1:06:35.320 --> 1:06:37.400
<v Speaker 3>think is one of the most high risk approaches you

1:06:37.400 --> 1:06:41.280
<v Speaker 3>can take, because if that fails, that can do a

1:06:41.320 --> 1:06:43.840
<v Speaker 3>lot more harm and that can make the family system

1:06:44.240 --> 1:06:49.160
<v Speaker 3>enemies through that individual. So if you move towards an

1:06:49.200 --> 1:06:53.720
<v Speaker 3>in person confrontation as like the first step or the

1:06:53.760 --> 1:06:57.880
<v Speaker 3>second step. That is something that worries me as well. Right,

1:06:58.080 --> 1:06:59.320
<v Speaker 3>it's just so high risk.

1:07:00.120 --> 1:07:02.560
<v Speaker 2>Hearing you say is another thing that comes up frequently

1:07:02.600 --> 1:07:04.400
<v Speaker 2>with many of our guests, which is just that, like

1:07:04.920 --> 1:07:09.520
<v Speaker 2>the direct attack on the belief system or on the

1:07:09.640 --> 1:07:13.880
<v Speaker 2>leader or group often has the opposite effect that we want.

1:07:14.080 --> 1:07:17.480
<v Speaker 2>And because it's so you know, it's so much a

1:07:17.520 --> 1:07:20.640
<v Speaker 2>part of the person's identity, and if you are attacking

1:07:20.640 --> 1:07:23.720
<v Speaker 2>their identity, their community, the people that they love, that

1:07:23.800 --> 1:07:27.000
<v Speaker 2>can often just make them, you know, push them further away.

1:07:27.440 --> 1:07:30.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, individuals and groups have been trained to counter your

1:07:31.080 --> 1:07:33.320
<v Speaker 3>arguments from the group itself.

1:07:33.080 --> 1:07:38.840
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, yeah, So can you share some strategies that

1:07:39.960 --> 1:07:43.880
<v Speaker 2>have been effective in helping people rebuild their identities after

1:07:44.000 --> 1:07:46.640
<v Speaker 2>leaving a group? Who am I now? What am I now?

1:07:46.760 --> 1:07:47.600
<v Speaker 2>Do I believe?

1:07:47.600 --> 1:07:51.520
<v Speaker 3>Oh? After leaving a group? Margaret Singer talks a lot

1:07:51.560 --> 1:07:55.600
<v Speaker 3>about how cult recovery is sort of this like too

1:07:56.080 --> 1:08:05.720
<v Speaker 3>pronged approach. Therapeutic sources are extremely important for people. Having

1:08:06.240 --> 1:08:10.400
<v Speaker 3>really good therapy is important. But I also add the

1:08:10.440 --> 1:08:12.880
<v Speaker 3>caveat that there are some people who have been involved

1:08:12.880 --> 1:08:16.560
<v Speaker 3>in therapy cults or who have had an abusive relationship

1:08:16.560 --> 1:08:19.120
<v Speaker 3>with a therapist and therapy may not be right for them,

1:08:20.160 --> 1:08:23.639
<v Speaker 3>and that's okay. Therapy is not the only right way,

1:08:24.240 --> 1:08:28.080
<v Speaker 3>and there's a lot of talk about finding also a

1:08:28.280 --> 1:08:32.559
<v Speaker 3>cult informed therapist. The reality is they can be very

1:08:32.600 --> 1:08:38.040
<v Speaker 3>expensive because this is highly specialized. Many of them don't

1:08:38.040 --> 1:08:41.840
<v Speaker 3>take insurance, and that's not a criticism of them. I

1:08:42.040 --> 1:08:45.280
<v Speaker 3>certainly understand the problems with insurance right now and all

1:08:45.320 --> 1:08:52.200
<v Speaker 3>of that, but I always encourage people that being in groups,

1:08:52.760 --> 1:08:57.479
<v Speaker 3>being in a cultic environment, experiencing indoctrination. There's actually a

1:08:57.600 --> 1:09:02.160
<v Speaker 3>DSM category for people who've been in cults, and it's

1:09:02.320 --> 1:09:10.000
<v Speaker 3>identified other under under other disassociative disorders due to the

1:09:10.040 --> 1:09:15.439
<v Speaker 3>identity disturbance that cults can leave, and it's like prolonged

1:09:15.439 --> 1:09:16.400
<v Speaker 3>identity disturbance.

1:09:17.000 --> 1:09:18.760
<v Speaker 2>And for people who don't know what the DSM is,

1:09:18.800 --> 1:09:20.840
<v Speaker 2>that's the sort of it's.

1:09:20.760 --> 1:09:24.960
<v Speaker 3>Kind of like the Mental health Bible exactly, like it's

1:09:24.960 --> 1:09:29.680
<v Speaker 3>what therapists are trained a reference for mental health categorizations

1:09:29.720 --> 1:09:30.280
<v Speaker 3>and things like.

1:09:30.240 --> 1:09:33.720
<v Speaker 2>That, and it's evolving still. Obviously we are this is

1:09:33.760 --> 1:09:37.600
<v Speaker 2>not a complete science, but it's the general go to

1:09:38.600 --> 1:09:40.479
<v Speaker 2>Diagnostic Manual exactly.

1:09:40.680 --> 1:09:46.800
<v Speaker 3>And because of this DSM categorization under other unspecified disassociative

1:09:46.840 --> 1:09:50.680
<v Speaker 3>disorders due to prolonged identity disturbance. Most people who've been

1:09:50.720 --> 1:09:57.080
<v Speaker 3>in cults have complex trauma and c PTSD is not

1:09:57.160 --> 1:10:00.559
<v Speaker 3>an official sort of diagnosis like an and other parts

1:10:00.560 --> 1:10:04.519
<v Speaker 3>of the world. PTSD is right, So most of us

1:10:04.640 --> 1:10:09.559
<v Speaker 3>who've been in cults have PTSD to some extent. And

1:10:10.160 --> 1:10:15.040
<v Speaker 3>so what I encourage survivors is to find a therapist

1:10:15.439 --> 1:10:19.559
<v Speaker 3>who knows and works really well with people who have

1:10:19.640 --> 1:10:24.120
<v Speaker 3>complex trauma. So if you can't afford like a cult

1:10:24.160 --> 1:10:27.840
<v Speaker 3>specific therapist, or if there's not in your state, there

1:10:27.880 --> 1:10:30.679
<v Speaker 3>are a lot of therapists who do really good work

1:10:30.800 --> 1:10:35.679
<v Speaker 3>with complex trauma, and you know, we can help either

1:10:35.800 --> 1:10:37.960
<v Speaker 3>educate them or provide them with some resources if they

1:10:38.000 --> 1:10:40.920
<v Speaker 3>want to learn more about cults. But complex trauma is

1:10:40.960 --> 1:10:44.800
<v Speaker 3>something that I always encourage. If you're looking for therapy

1:10:44.880 --> 1:10:47.680
<v Speaker 3>you can't afford or you can't find cult specific therapists,

1:10:47.920 --> 1:10:49.719
<v Speaker 3>look for someone good in complex trauma.

1:10:50.000 --> 1:10:51.479
<v Speaker 4>That is such solid advice.

1:10:51.800 --> 1:10:56.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, yeah, because most of us have that PTSD

1:10:56.360 --> 1:11:02.519
<v Speaker 3>label due Tom and we can also present our therapists

1:11:02.560 --> 1:11:06.120
<v Speaker 3>with that DSM diagnostic criterion and say I was involved

1:11:06.120 --> 1:11:07.880
<v Speaker 3>in this, this is what I deal with and a

1:11:07.920 --> 1:11:14.080
<v Speaker 3>lot of survivors deal with dissociation in some way. And secondly,

1:11:14.240 --> 1:11:17.759
<v Speaker 3>going back to Margaret Singer and cult recovery, psycho education

1:11:18.720 --> 1:11:22.960
<v Speaker 3>is huge in recovery, and that's the work that I

1:11:23.120 --> 1:11:26.800
<v Speaker 3>do and I focus on is providing It's basically what

1:11:26.800 --> 1:11:31.559
<v Speaker 3>we're doing right now. We're doing education. We're talking about

1:11:31.600 --> 1:11:35.879
<v Speaker 3>how it applies to the cultic experience, how influence works,

1:11:36.800 --> 1:11:39.720
<v Speaker 3>you know. How I feel like through the process of

1:11:39.720 --> 1:11:43.519
<v Speaker 3>psycho education, we can start to give ourselves a lot

1:11:43.600 --> 1:11:48.960
<v Speaker 3>more compassion through what we've been through because we did

1:11:49.000 --> 1:11:51.559
<v Speaker 3>what we had to do in order to survive whatever

1:11:51.720 --> 1:11:55.400
<v Speaker 3>dynamic we were in, and sometimes it wasn't even by

1:11:55.560 --> 1:11:58.920
<v Speaker 3>choice for those who were born or raised right. And

1:12:00.080 --> 1:12:03.160
<v Speaker 3>I think it gives survivors more of a strength based

1:12:03.200 --> 1:12:07.000
<v Speaker 3>approach to sort of view their experience through. And we

1:12:07.080 --> 1:12:12.200
<v Speaker 3>can look at our experiences and learn from psycho education,

1:12:12.520 --> 1:12:17.519
<v Speaker 3>like the value of learning about this stuff and feeling

1:12:17.600 --> 1:12:20.920
<v Speaker 3>safer as we continue into the future, feeling more equipped

1:12:21.840 --> 1:12:25.120
<v Speaker 3>through having this knowledge, and like finding community with others

1:12:25.160 --> 1:12:28.120
<v Speaker 3>who also have been through it too and who get it.

1:12:28.640 --> 1:12:33.599
<v Speaker 3>So I think psycho education, therapeutic support, and community can

1:12:33.800 --> 1:12:37.599
<v Speaker 3>really really make a difference for survivors navigating life after

1:12:37.680 --> 1:12:39.600
<v Speaker 3>a cult. And that's the work that I try to

1:12:39.640 --> 1:12:43.240
<v Speaker 3>do through people leave cults, is provide different resources across

1:12:43.320 --> 1:12:44.440
<v Speaker 3>all of those spectrums.

1:12:44.960 --> 1:12:46.280
<v Speaker 2>Amazing, amazing.

1:12:46.360 --> 1:12:48.799
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, you really demystify a lot.

1:12:49.360 --> 1:12:54.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, my goal is to demystify this stuff because I

1:12:54.080 --> 1:12:57.640
<v Speaker 3>think cult recovery can be kind of scary, understandably, so

1:12:57.840 --> 1:13:01.000
<v Speaker 3>to engage with and know where to start. We get overwhelmed.

1:13:01.040 --> 1:13:04.800
<v Speaker 3>And then sometimes we only have extreme experiences that are

1:13:04.800 --> 1:13:06.840
<v Speaker 3>in the media and like we're like, well, how do

1:13:06.880 --> 1:13:10.200
<v Speaker 3>we fit into this? And right, And I think there's

1:13:10.240 --> 1:13:13.799
<v Speaker 3>a lot of de mystification that can happen through education

1:13:14.240 --> 1:13:18.360
<v Speaker 3>and I love then, and I think like it just

1:13:18.400 --> 1:13:21.599
<v Speaker 3>gives our brain different frameworks to view our experience through

1:13:22.200 --> 1:13:25.439
<v Speaker 3>and that helps with healing, Like the brain wants to heal.

1:13:26.200 --> 1:13:28.439
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I love that that brain wants to heal.

1:13:28.800 --> 1:13:31.719
<v Speaker 3>The brain wants to heal. It's true, It's true.

1:13:31.800 --> 1:13:37.439
<v Speaker 2>My brain certainly does so badly. I was gonna say, yeah,

1:13:37.439 --> 1:13:40.120
<v Speaker 2>when you don't have a name for I mean, they say,

1:13:40.120 --> 1:13:42.080
<v Speaker 2>if you name it, you contame it. When you don't

1:13:42.120 --> 1:13:45.559
<v Speaker 2>have a name or a framework of understanding for what

1:13:45.760 --> 1:13:48.200
<v Speaker 2>has happened to you or what's currently going on in

1:13:48.240 --> 1:13:50.880
<v Speaker 2>your brain, it makes it feel so much bigger and

1:13:50.960 --> 1:13:54.320
<v Speaker 2>scarier and like you're alone. You know, it's just this

1:13:54.520 --> 1:13:57.280
<v Speaker 2>overwhelm that can happen. But once you can start of

1:13:58.160 --> 1:14:00.240
<v Speaker 2>start to sort of fit it into terms and like, oh,

1:14:00.280 --> 1:14:02.680
<v Speaker 2>this is a thing, this is a common dynamic. I

1:14:02.720 --> 1:14:05.160
<v Speaker 2>had that happen in a relationship I was in that

1:14:05.200 --> 1:14:08.679
<v Speaker 2>was emotionally abusive, and I wasn't familiar with emotional abuse.

1:14:08.720 --> 1:14:12.040
<v Speaker 2>I thought abuse had to only be physical. And my

1:14:12.280 --> 1:14:15.040
<v Speaker 2>therapist at the time gave me a book on called

1:14:15.040 --> 1:14:18.360
<v Speaker 2>The Berbly Abusive Relationship, and reading it changed everything for

1:14:18.439 --> 1:14:20.639
<v Speaker 2>me because I was like, oh no, wonder, I felt

1:14:20.720 --> 1:14:24.439
<v Speaker 2>crazy all the time, Oh no, wonder. I kept hoping

1:14:24.439 --> 1:14:26.479
<v Speaker 2>that if I could just say it in the right way,

1:14:27.040 --> 1:14:30.599
<v Speaker 2>he would understand. And because in the relationship, I didn't

1:14:30.680 --> 1:14:34.480
<v Speaker 2>have any of that language, and I just was confused

1:14:35.160 --> 1:14:38.600
<v Speaker 2>all the time and felt off kilter, like something was

1:14:38.680 --> 1:14:41.040
<v Speaker 2>just off in my reality all the time, and I

1:14:41.120 --> 1:14:43.680
<v Speaker 2>didn't know why. So once I had that language, it

1:14:43.760 --> 1:14:46.800
<v Speaker 2>was like a light bulb going on and helped me

1:14:46.920 --> 1:14:51.280
<v Speaker 2>and integrate that experience into my story and you know,

1:14:51.400 --> 1:14:54.840
<v Speaker 2>it's not this like a morphous, weird, confusing thing that

1:14:54.920 --> 1:14:56.160
<v Speaker 2>happened that feels like it's my.

1:14:56.160 --> 1:14:57.880
<v Speaker 4>Fault, rung of the ladder.

1:14:58.560 --> 1:15:01.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, and that's true obviously

1:15:01.280 --> 1:15:04.080
<v Speaker 2>with mental health stuff as well, when we have a

1:15:04.200 --> 1:15:08.320
<v Speaker 2>disorder or are struggling with mental illness in some way,

1:15:08.640 --> 1:15:11.240
<v Speaker 2>and having psycho education about that also can make a

1:15:11.320 --> 1:15:15.000
<v Speaker 2>huge difference. So completely agree, is all My point.

1:15:14.920 --> 1:15:20.360
<v Speaker 1>Is, Yeah, it's really important work, and you're doing a

1:15:20.400 --> 1:15:21.400
<v Speaker 1>fantastic job.

1:15:22.000 --> 1:15:25.240
<v Speaker 3>Thank you. I'm excited. I have been invited to go

1:15:25.360 --> 1:15:27.759
<v Speaker 3>back to speak to a high school in my area.

1:15:29.320 --> 1:15:33.799
<v Speaker 3>I love talking to young kids about how this stuff

1:15:33.840 --> 1:15:36.320
<v Speaker 3>works and what it is, and they ask such good questions,

1:15:36.400 --> 1:15:40.360
<v Speaker 3>and man, this is the stuff that we need criteria

1:15:40.400 --> 1:15:46.280
<v Speaker 3>on in school, is like influence, indoctrination, like what to

1:15:46.320 --> 1:15:48.760
<v Speaker 3>look out for abuse, Like this is the stuff that

1:15:48.960 --> 1:15:52.160
<v Speaker 3>young people need to know, and they're just not getting

1:15:52.400 --> 1:15:55.080
<v Speaker 3>through social media and other formats right now.

1:15:55.640 --> 1:16:01.840
<v Speaker 2>If anything, it's the opposite and social media yeah yeah yeah.

1:16:01.880 --> 1:16:04.880
<v Speaker 2>And so where can people find more about you and

1:16:04.920 --> 1:16:05.400
<v Speaker 2>your work?

1:16:05.960 --> 1:16:11.040
<v Speaker 3>Sure, people leave cults dot com. I offer cult intervention

1:16:11.120 --> 1:16:18.240
<v Speaker 3>for families and cult recovery consults for survivors, and I

1:16:18.280 --> 1:16:22.040
<v Speaker 3>am also on Instagram and Facebook. I don't post as

1:16:22.160 --> 1:16:25.639
<v Speaker 3>much as I should just because I'm so busy with

1:16:26.080 --> 1:16:28.519
<v Speaker 3>consults sometimes, but I try to post when I can.

1:16:30.080 --> 1:16:32.519
<v Speaker 3>And if you're in Portland organ and you want to

1:16:32.560 --> 1:16:35.840
<v Speaker 3>attend our free meetups that I help volunteer, you can

1:16:35.880 --> 1:16:38.680
<v Speaker 3>go to safe Portland dot org and find out our

1:16:38.720 --> 1:16:42.120
<v Speaker 3>meeting schedule there. So that's where you can find me.

1:16:42.520 --> 1:16:48.760
<v Speaker 2>Okay, thanks to Ashland for joining us and Megan, I

1:16:48.800 --> 1:16:50.680
<v Speaker 2>have a thought on this one, and I want what

1:16:50.880 --> 1:16:53.960
<v Speaker 2>let me know your thoughts on my thought, okay, which

1:16:54.560 --> 1:16:58.360
<v Speaker 2>it just to me this idea that intervention really has

1:16:58.400 --> 1:17:00.960
<v Speaker 2>to be more about harm reduction and allowing people to

1:17:00.960 --> 1:17:04.680
<v Speaker 2>come to their own conclusions. It all comes back to

1:17:04.720 --> 1:17:07.960
<v Speaker 2>this idea that you just really cannot control other people,

1:17:08.400 --> 1:17:12.439
<v Speaker 2>right right, you like, And the only way to remove

1:17:12.479 --> 1:17:15.639
<v Speaker 2>someone from a high control group is to is to

1:17:15.640 --> 1:17:20.599
<v Speaker 2>totally relinquish control and not have any say in it whatsoever, basically, right,

1:17:20.840 --> 1:17:23.640
<v Speaker 2>which is so maddening because you're like, but this is

1:17:23.640 --> 1:17:25.759
<v Speaker 2>for your own good, but it's like, but no, they

1:17:26.160 --> 1:17:28.080
<v Speaker 2>people have to reach their own conclusions.

1:17:28.720 --> 1:17:28.960
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

1:17:29.000 --> 1:17:32.519
<v Speaker 1>I mean it's as simple as like just letting your

1:17:33.080 --> 1:17:34.920
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, like letting your friend's.

1:17:34.800 --> 1:17:38.800
<v Speaker 4>Kids date bad people, you know what I mean, where

1:17:38.800 --> 1:17:40.200
<v Speaker 4>you're like, no, this is bad.

1:17:40.280 --> 1:17:43.120
<v Speaker 1>I've already dated this kind of kid when I was

1:17:43.120 --> 1:17:44.840
<v Speaker 1>your age, and like, it's.

1:17:44.920 --> 1:17:46.519
<v Speaker 4>Has to happen. It just has to be.

1:17:46.840 --> 1:17:47.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't know.

1:17:47.800 --> 1:17:49.479
<v Speaker 4>That doesn't really make sense, does it?

1:17:49.680 --> 1:17:50.639
<v Speaker 2>I think it does?

1:17:51.320 --> 1:17:51.639
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

1:17:51.720 --> 1:17:53.400
<v Speaker 2>My only frame of reference for this in my head

1:17:53.439 --> 1:17:56.160
<v Speaker 2>right now is Gilmore Girls. Neither of us are parents, obviously,

1:17:57.520 --> 1:18:00.559
<v Speaker 2>but I would like to be one day and watching

1:18:00.600 --> 1:18:01.680
<v Speaker 2>Gilmour Girls.

1:18:02.080 --> 1:18:04.120
<v Speaker 4>Laura taught me a lot about it.

1:18:05.240 --> 1:18:08.599
<v Speaker 2>Laura, I has to accept that Rory wants to date

1:18:08.640 --> 1:18:10.880
<v Speaker 2>Deane and she's going to do whatever she wants, and

1:18:10.920 --> 1:18:14.479
<v Speaker 2>she has to learn her lessons on her own. I'm

1:18:14.479 --> 1:18:16.920
<v Speaker 2>actually dealing with a little bit of this dynamic in

1:18:16.960 --> 1:18:18.720
<v Speaker 2>my personal life right now, which I won't get into

1:18:18.760 --> 1:18:22.080
<v Speaker 2>great detail about. But I have to accept that I

1:18:22.120 --> 1:18:25.639
<v Speaker 2>do not have control over another person's actions, even when

1:18:26.720 --> 1:18:30.839
<v Speaker 2>everybody knows what would be best for that situation.

1:18:31.479 --> 1:18:34.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and of course what the stakes just get higher

1:18:34.400 --> 1:18:36.360
<v Speaker 1>and hire when it comes to high control groups and

1:18:36.400 --> 1:18:38.519
<v Speaker 1>if somebody is like, you know, giving away all of

1:18:38.560 --> 1:18:40.040
<v Speaker 1>their money, and on.

1:18:39.960 --> 1:18:41.559
<v Speaker 4>Death Store it's so much harder.

1:18:41.600 --> 1:18:43.719
<v Speaker 2>It's just yeah, it's yeah.

1:18:43.840 --> 1:18:47.479
<v Speaker 1>I really loved the Eating Disorder episode we did a

1:18:47.600 --> 1:18:52.400
<v Speaker 1>week ago or something about like connecting people to their

1:18:52.479 --> 1:18:54.160
<v Speaker 1>own inner resources.

1:18:54.439 --> 1:18:59.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but then you know, to Devil's Advocate myself alway

1:18:59.360 --> 1:19:02.120
<v Speaker 2>is I think about Derek Black, who is now Adrian Black.

1:19:02.160 --> 1:19:04.800
<v Speaker 2>But for those who did not hear the episode with her,

1:19:05.479 --> 1:19:08.000
<v Speaker 2>our Derek Black was the title of the recent episode,

1:19:08.000 --> 1:19:11.120
<v Speaker 2>and she was a former basically white supremacist poster child,

1:19:11.120 --> 1:19:13.880
<v Speaker 2>and what we talked about on the episode was sort

1:19:13.920 --> 1:19:17.160
<v Speaker 2>of the two pronged approach that worked for her. And

1:19:17.200 --> 1:19:21.240
<v Speaker 2>there have been a few guests where somebody did say

1:19:21.240 --> 1:19:23.840
<v Speaker 2>to them, this is fucking crazy, what are you doing?

1:19:24.520 --> 1:19:24.760
<v Speaker 3>You know?

1:19:25.000 --> 1:19:27.880
<v Speaker 2>And with Adrian, it was like she had the people

1:19:27.880 --> 1:19:29.360
<v Speaker 2>who are kind to her and that was really what

1:19:29.439 --> 1:19:32.080
<v Speaker 2>she needed. But there also were people who were making

1:19:32.120 --> 1:19:35.400
<v Speaker 2>her feel stupid for being a white supremacist, and she

1:19:35.560 --> 1:19:37.800
<v Speaker 2>was saying that kind It was kind of that combination

1:19:37.920 --> 1:19:41.479
<v Speaker 2>of both. So really, yeah, I guess like harm reduction

1:19:41.640 --> 1:19:45.639
<v Speaker 2>does seem to be the most effective. Every professional, every

1:19:45.680 --> 1:19:48.880
<v Speaker 2>ethical professional in the field basically says this, and there

1:19:48.880 --> 1:19:52.080
<v Speaker 2>are countless examples of it at the same time, Depending

1:19:52.120 --> 1:19:54.320
<v Speaker 2>on who the person is in their lives and in

1:19:54.360 --> 1:19:57.280
<v Speaker 2>the person's life, sometimes being like what the fuck are

1:19:57.280 --> 1:19:58.639
<v Speaker 2>you doing? Can work.

1:19:59.160 --> 1:20:01.839
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, there's there's no cookie cutter approach.

1:20:01.880 --> 1:20:04.000
<v Speaker 2>I guess, but I guess. You can say what the

1:20:04.040 --> 1:20:05.760
<v Speaker 2>fuck and then they still have to come to their

1:20:05.760 --> 1:20:08.680
<v Speaker 2>own conclusions. You can't say what the fuck now you

1:20:08.760 --> 1:20:10.360
<v Speaker 2>have to listen to me. You could be like, what

1:20:10.439 --> 1:20:12.719
<v Speaker 2>the fuck? Okay, I guess I'll still be in your life,

1:20:12.720 --> 1:20:14.200
<v Speaker 2>But Dann, the shit's crazy, you know.

1:20:14.720 --> 1:20:17.320
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, you know. We don't know.

1:20:17.800 --> 1:20:21.439
<v Speaker 1>We don't know, but we're we're interested in finding out exactly.

1:20:23.439 --> 1:20:26.679
<v Speaker 2>That is the theme of this intro and out tro today.

1:20:26.960 --> 1:20:29.439
<v Speaker 2>We don't know anything mm hmm, but we do know

1:20:30.200 --> 1:20:33.320
<v Speaker 2>that we hope you guys have a happy new year,

1:20:33.600 --> 1:20:35.000
<v Speaker 2>had a happy new year.

1:20:35.120 --> 1:20:39.599
<v Speaker 1>And hopefully we're gonna have a strong year ahead.

1:20:40.479 --> 1:20:42.920
<v Speaker 4>Thank you so much for being a listener, and.

1:20:42.920 --> 1:20:45.760
<v Speaker 1>As always, remember to follow your gut, watch out for

1:20:45.840 --> 1:20:47.000
<v Speaker 1>ad flax.

1:20:46.840 --> 1:20:49.479
<v Speaker 2>And never ever trust me.

1:20:50.080 --> 1:20:52.920
<v Speaker 4>Bye bye.

1:20:54.680 --> 1:20:57.400
<v Speaker 2>Trust me. As produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

1:20:57.439 --> 1:20:58.800
<v Speaker 2>Steve Delemator.

1:20:58.400 --> 1:21:00.519
<v Speaker 4>With special thanks to Stacy pear and our.

1:21:00.520 --> 1:21:02.679
<v Speaker 2>Theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1:21:02.880 --> 1:21:05.760
<v Speaker 1>You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1:21:05.960 --> 1:21:09.719
<v Speaker 1>Twitter at trust Me Cultpod, or on TikTok at trust

1:21:09.760 --> 1:21:11.040
<v Speaker 1>Me Cult Podcast.

1:21:11.200 --> 1:21:14.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1:21:14.280 --> 1:21:17.920
<v Speaker 1>And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Bebraham

1:21:18.040 --> 1:21:19.080
<v Speaker 1>Hicks on Twitter.

1:21:19.240 --> 1:21:21.519
<v Speaker 2>Remember to rate and review and spread the word.