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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust me, trust me.

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Speaker 3: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 4: I've never lied to you.

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Speaker 2: I never If you think that one person has all

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Speaker 2: the answers, don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about

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Speaker 2: cults extreme belief in manipulation from two interveners who've actually

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Speaker 2: experienced it. I said that very weird. I won't pretend

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Speaker 2: I did it. I'm Lola Blanc.

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Speaker 4: And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: And today our guest is Ashlyn Hilliard. She's a cult

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Speaker 2: interventionist and founder of organization People Leave Cults, and she's

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Speaker 2: going to talk to us about her path to working

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Speaker 2: in cult intervention and recovery, her personal religious experience that

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Speaker 2: led her to this work, and how being around Mormons

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Speaker 2: and Utah interestingly woke her up, how she defines a

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Speaker 2: cult and why throwing around the accusation of cult isn't

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Speaker 2: always helpful.

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Speaker 1: She'll tell us how cult intervention is different today than

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Speaker 1: it was in the seventies, how it used to involve

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Speaker 1: kidnapping and unethical practices, and how the modern version of

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Speaker 1: cult intervention that she practices under the guidance of former

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Speaker 1: guests Patrick Ryan and Joseph Kelly takes a harm reduction

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Speaker 1: approach plus red flags click out for when someone makes

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Speaker 1: promises that they can get your loved one out of

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Speaker 1: a cult, and when intervention practices themselves can become irresponsible

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Speaker 1: or cult like.

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Speaker 4: Ooh, I love it.

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Speaker 2: It's always such an interesting topic to me. It's like

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Speaker 2: when the attempts to help people in a cult themselves

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Speaker 2: become a cult, like endlessly fascinating.

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Speaker 4: It's Russian dolls.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's Russian dolls, which for some reason just sounded

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Speaker 2: really cute to me when you said it. Happy New Year,

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Speaker 2: also to all you New Year Day.

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Speaker 4: Happy New Year.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this year is going to be interesting, and we're

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Speaker 1: going to be here looking at it.

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Speaker 2: That is true, we will be here looking at it.

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Speaker 2: What the fuck? Twenty twenty four. I don't even know.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know. Megan was your cultiest thing today.

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Speaker 1: My cultiest thing of the week is myself believing that

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Speaker 1: I'm going to stick to New Year's resolutions.

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Speaker 2: M nice.

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Speaker 4: I do it every year.

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Speaker 1: I have a part of my brain that makes so

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Speaker 1: out there ideas and every year I completely believe them,

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Speaker 1: worship them, handover my being to them, and yeah.

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Speaker 2: And their resolutions, Like is it stuff that's like in

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Speaker 2: your control, like things you're going to do or stuff

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Speaker 2: that's like I hope this happens.

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Speaker 4: This stuff that is in my control that I'm going

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Speaker 4: to do that.

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Speaker 2: But that you don't well, I mean I don't either, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: No, And I mean it's stuff hope and maybe I

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Speaker 1: can put in some small little changes. But every year

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I make your resolution to not make a resolution,

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Speaker 1: and then I make all these bizarre promises and it's

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Speaker 1: just endless.

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Speaker 2: What are the kinds of things you think you're gonna do?

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna start getting up so early. Oh you wouldn't

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Speaker 1: even believe it's never gonna happen.

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Speaker 2: That's hilarious. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So just stuff like that, you know, And I

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Speaker 4: don't know why I do it. There's some part of

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Speaker 4: me that needs it, and just recognizing that and our

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Speaker 4: and ourselves? What about you? What's the guiltiest thing that

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Speaker 4: happened to you this week?

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Speaker 2: Well, before I say that, I'm going to just comment

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Speaker 2: on what you just said, which is that like i've

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Speaker 2: I'm I have. I do a vision board every year

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Speaker 2: and I love doing it. I love making it like

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Speaker 2: exactly my esthetic and it like looks like a film

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Speaker 2: I would make, you know, and it's and I had

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Speaker 2: like whittled it down to just like like four five

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Speaker 2: five things and the years past so fast. Now then

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I literally just made one. What Like, what's

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Speaker 2: the point. There's no difference, like nothing, I'm just getting older.

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Speaker 1: Nothing is changing our little, our little positivity.

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Speaker 2: But I but it's still nice, it's still fun. But

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Speaker 2: but literally this year past, this year felt like three

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Speaker 2: months to be max.

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Speaker 4: Oh it was a minute.

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Speaker 2: I do not like this part of growing up. If

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Speaker 2: years still feel long to you, I don't know. That

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Speaker 2: was so hard to say, enjoy it, savor it, take

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Speaker 2: your time so fast. Okay. My cultiest thing is that Facebook.

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Speaker 2: Have you heard this? Facebook is now doing this like

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Speaker 2: or Meta is now doing this, launching this thing where

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Speaker 2: they are launching AI profiles. No, so that there will

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Speaker 2: be bought profiles that are like official meta AI profiles

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Speaker 2: interacting with meta the way that humans do. Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 2: and yes, okay, can you can you? I hadn't heard

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Speaker 2: that term before. Can you say what that means?

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just that most of the things on

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Speaker 1: the Internet at this point are bots and not real people.

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Speaker 2: So it's like a bot will post something and then

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Speaker 2: it will go viral, but everyone interacting with it is

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Speaker 2: also a bot.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So there's just this whole social media landscape where there's

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Speaker 2: absolutely nothing social about it. Yes, that fucking scares me.

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Speaker 2: I mean I don't want to be like one of

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Speaker 2: those people who's like resisting the future or whatever, but

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Speaker 2: that is like already algorithms are shaping us to a

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Speaker 2: degree that I really really, that really really scares me,

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Speaker 2: as you know, given how much we think and talk

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Speaker 2: about manipulation and influence. Yeah, Like, so then there's gonna

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Speaker 2: be people who seem like real people but meta controls them.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, why are they even saying that they're doing.

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Speaker 2: This, I don't understand. I'm sure there's a reason. It

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Speaker 2: probably has to do with ad sales and making more money.

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Speaker 2: I would guess but I truly have no idea. If

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Speaker 2: somebody knows the answer, please tell me, because I only

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Speaker 2: read like an article in a half about it, so

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Speaker 2: I don't know that much. I love the half part.

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Speaker 1: You were like, I'm done, that's enough. I wish I

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Speaker 1: had like the exact thing in front of me. If

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Speaker 1: only there were away I could look at it on

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Speaker 1: my computer. But I'm not going to. No, But I

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Speaker 1: there's this really funny post where somebody on Facebook is like, ah, fuck,

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Speaker 1: I have to find out hold on, hold.

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Speaker 2: On, Okay, while you do that, what I'll say is

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Speaker 2: there are really fascinating statistics on how many viral posts

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Speaker 2: are bought, interacted with, and but also I think what

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Speaker 2: also becomes dangerous is, like what you see on Twitter

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Speaker 2: is there will be accounts that have a of followers,

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Speaker 2: and so they seem more reliable, they see more trustworthy,

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Speaker 2: like the real people. Yeah, and then misinformation spread through

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Speaker 2: those accounts. I'm not saying metas intending to spread disinformation,

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Speaker 2: although who fucking knows, but yeah, yeah, what was it

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Speaker 2: you were going to say?

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Speaker 4: I can't find it?

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Speaker 1: But basically there was just a there was a post

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Speaker 1: of a guy who's just like, does anybody want to

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Speaker 1: learn how to make a thousand dollars a week? I

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Speaker 1: just found out how it's obviously a bot. And then

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Speaker 1: this woman responds and she's like, Hi, I'm new here.

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Speaker 1: I don't have any friends. It's really hard for me

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Speaker 1: to make friends. Does anybody want to be my friend?

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Speaker 1: And that's a bot? And then another person responds and

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Speaker 1: it was like a Reddit posts a while back of

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Speaker 1: like dead Internet what this will look like, and it's

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Speaker 1: just all bots like saying their bot yeah and pc

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Speaker 1: shit to each other, and it was just really.

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Speaker 2: Creepy good Yeah, well, what I mean that has to okay? Again,

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Speaker 2: I don't know anything about this world, so I might

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Speaker 2: be talking completely out of my But in theory, that

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Speaker 2: seems like that would backfire because what then is going

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Speaker 2: to be happening. It seems is that advertisers who are

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Speaker 2: paying a ton of money to be seen on these

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Speaker 2: platforms are going to be seen by like won't that

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Speaker 2: water down their money their revenue income if everyone on

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Speaker 2: the app is fucking bought anyway, I don't know anything,

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Speaker 2: but I know I don't like it.

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Speaker 4: I'm putting that on your grapes stuff.

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Speaker 2: Please do.

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Speaker 3: Happy New yeark y'all.

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Speaker 1: I feel like this conversation today was really enlightening. It

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Speaker 1: definitely taught me a lot, so.

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Speaker 4: We hope you enjoy it.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, let's do it. Welcome Ashland to trust Me. Thanks

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Speaker 2: for being with us.

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Speaker 3: I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having

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Speaker 3: me on. I love you guys' podcast. And you've interviewed

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Speaker 3: so many wonderful friends and colleagues of mine on the platform. Two.

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Speaker 3: I loved your interview with Pat Ryan and Joseph Kelly.

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Speaker 1: You did.

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Speaker 3: They've been my mentors for years and years and I

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Speaker 3: worked with them pretty actively, So thank you for having

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Speaker 3: me on. It's a privilege to be on here.

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Speaker 2: So you have an organization and it is called People

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Speaker 2: Leave Cults, And before we kind of talk about your work,

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Speaker 2: which is so amazing and I'm so excited to get

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Speaker 2: into it. I'd love to know how you came to

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Speaker 2: this work and what your own personal experiences were.

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Speaker 3: Sure. I was raised in a very religious household. I

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Speaker 3: was born into the Churches of Christ. And there's a

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Speaker 3: lot of different types of Churches of Christ. The United

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Speaker 3: Church of Christ is considered very progressive. For example, the

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Speaker 3: International Churches of Christ is considered one of the much

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Speaker 3: more culty variations of the Church of Christ. They had

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Speaker 3: like more of a cult leader Kit McKean. It's also

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Speaker 3: known as the Boston Movement, did a lot of Koreina

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Speaker 3: College campuses, and the group I came from was a

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Speaker 3: very small like sect within that, and it was then

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Speaker 3: it was referred to as the non Institutional Churches of Christ.

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Speaker 3: During the nineteen hundreds there was a split from the

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Speaker 3: mainstream Churches of Christ movement, and we're also known as

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Speaker 3: the Anties anti apostrophe s because our group was known

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Speaker 3: to be anti everything in that like the non institutional

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Speaker 3: Churches of Christ really believed that they were practicing first

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Speaker 3: century Christianity in the twenty first century. We have roots

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Speaker 3: back to the second Grade Awakening, around the same time

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Speaker 3: where Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses were coming to the scene.

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Speaker 3: Thomas Campbell and Barton W. Stone were like the main

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Speaker 3: sort of founders I guess you could call them of

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Speaker 3: the group during that time. Their sort of mission was,

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Speaker 3: you know, they were in this era where they looked

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Speaker 3: around them and they saw all these different sort of

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Speaker 3: charismatic groups popping up and they're like, well, we have

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Speaker 3: the Bible, and we have all these different splits and

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Speaker 3: variations on it. So like, what if we in essence

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Speaker 3: use the Bible and created a framework for interpreting the

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Speaker 3: Bible so that we can all reach the same conclusion

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Speaker 3: as to what the Bible's saying. The church I came

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Speaker 3: from was non denominational, whereas like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons,

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Speaker 3: they're denominational. They have like a central headquarters, they have

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Speaker 3: central leadership. Our group was more scattered, primarily in the

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Speaker 3: Bible Belt, and they just were local churches and the

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Speaker 3: money would stay, you know, for example, within the church,

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Speaker 3: they're not giving it to a headquarters. There's no like

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Speaker 3: established central leadership. But you could walk into a Church

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Speaker 3: of Christ that was affiliated with this group in Florida,

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Speaker 3: and walk into a Church of Christ affiliate with this

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Speaker 3: group in California, and the beliefs and interpretations would be

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Speaker 3: the same with people. It was kind of like being

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Speaker 3: raised in a non denominational denomination. So like the groups

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Speaker 3: are the same, but they're locally run. This group has

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Speaker 3: a lot of roots in history within my family. So

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Speaker 3: I'm like third generation on my mom's side, and I

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Speaker 3: was also a legacy student at the group's college. There's

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Speaker 3: a Christian college in Tampa, Florida for those within the group,

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Speaker 3: and it's called Florida College. I attended there, my mom

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Speaker 3: attended there, my grandmother attended there, and my grandmother even

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Speaker 3: worked for the college for many many years. It was

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Speaker 3: very like well known, and I guess sort of entangled

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Speaker 3: within my family system. And to make things even more complex,

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Speaker 3: it certainly was high control in that we had a

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Speaker 3: hard time looking at other churches who claimed to be

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Speaker 3: Christians and actually seeing them as Christians because they weren't

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Speaker 3: interpreting the Bible the same way that we were. And

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Speaker 3: that was really sad, even at an early age for me.

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Speaker 3: So one of the reasons why they're called the anties,

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Speaker 3: for example, is their interpretation with scripture is, well, there's

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Speaker 3: no guitar or piano mentioned in the New Testament used

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Speaker 3: during worship service, So if you introduce one, it's not

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Speaker 3: just a matter of church preference or meeting preference. That's

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Speaker 3: actually like inserting your own view into the Bible. That's

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Speaker 3: going against God's authority, and that then becomes a heaven

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Speaker 3: or Hell question. So your salvation can be at stake

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Speaker 3: if you introduce something into the New Testament that doesn't exist.

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Speaker 3: And because they only have himn songs and spiritual songs

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Speaker 3: with like your voice, we were known as like a

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Speaker 3: cappella only very strictly with these groups.

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Speaker 2: Would that trickle down to life outside of church itself

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Speaker 2: or was that just in service?

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Speaker 3: It depended on the group and the family, to be

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Speaker 3: honest with you. My parents, for example, they loved the Gathers.

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Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. There was many a times where we

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Speaker 3: were in the car and we listened to the Gathers

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Speaker 3: and the gathers are like an old school gospel band, right,

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Speaker 3: and so they're playing instruments, they're singing hymns to them,

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Speaker 3: whereas other families they would avoid that entirely and they

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Speaker 3: would only listen to acapella. But certainly within the context

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Speaker 3: of the worship service. It was such a serious issue

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Speaker 3: that churches that had a piano or a guitar their

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Speaker 3: salvation actually could be at risk because of that. Wow

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Speaker 3: and so it was a very fundamentalist interpretation of the scripture.

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Speaker 4: I relate a lot to that. The group that I

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Speaker 4: was raised in.

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Speaker 1: My family was like, we would rather you be with

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Speaker 1: complete non believers than be with a kid from school

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Speaker 1: who like goes to one of those churches where they

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Speaker 1: sang and raise their hands and stuff. So it was, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's very interesting to I hate other forms of Christianity

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Speaker 1: that much.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, in the way in which women in the role

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Speaker 3: of women within the group, you know, we weren't allowed

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Speaker 3: to participate in the service. It was a men run service.

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Speaker 3: Women could teach Bible classes up until a point. If

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Speaker 3: there was a kid who was like, let's say fourteen,

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Speaker 3: a male who was a boy who was baptized, she

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Speaker 3: then shouldn't be teaching him because he now has authority

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Speaker 3: over her. No way, And so oftentimes she would have

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Speaker 3: to bring in her husband into the Bible class to

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Speaker 3: be present, or so it was like couples teaching, or

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Speaker 3: like they would put in a male teacher at that

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Speaker 3: stage to teach a young man. It was very very

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Speaker 3: strict in that regard. So I attended the group's college

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Speaker 3: and got married, got my degree and left shortly after.

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Speaker 2: And what was your degree in originally.

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Speaker 3: Communication, a bachelor's degree and of minor in biblical studies, okay, okay.

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Speaker 3: I was very into the exegesis of random old Testament books.

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Speaker 3: I was kind of nerdy like that. I really was

294
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Speaker 3: invested in learning as much as I could during that time.

295
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Speaker 3: And I think what made my sort of upbringing also

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Speaker 3: very complex was I was a military kid. We moved

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Speaker 3: every couple years. My dad was last stationed in Utah,

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Speaker 3: and I was raised in Utah from about fourth grade

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Speaker 3: through high school. Oh where actually like Caswell Fruit Heights area,

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Speaker 3: it's like twenty minutes north of Salt Lake City, very

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Speaker 3: old school, like old established Mormon pioneer town. And I

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Speaker 3: attended a high school there, which was massive, very very

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Speaker 3: Mormon area that I grew up in. And so from

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Speaker 3: a very young age, my Mormon friends, which I who

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Speaker 3: I loved and I had many of, they were trying

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Speaker 3: to convert me, and I was trying to.

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Speaker 2: Convert that right, right, So it.

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Speaker 3: Was such a sort of like abnormal thing to be

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Speaker 3: dealing with at such a young age, being raised in school.

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Speaker 3: I remember my first encounter in the fourth grade, and

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Speaker 3: I have hardly any other memories from that time. But

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Speaker 3: when I first my first day of school, I remember

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Speaker 3: a young kid coming up to me and asking before

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Speaker 3: my name was even asked, it was like, Hey, are

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Speaker 3: you warming and I was like, I didn't even know

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Speaker 3: what that meant yet. And I said no, and he said,

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Speaker 3: well you are, you just don't know it yet and

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Speaker 3: then proceeded to leave. And I that was a conversation

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Speaker 3: that really like stuck with me. What really helped me

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Speaker 3: in my transition out of my group was I had

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Speaker 3: to really, I think critically with interacting with my also

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Speaker 3: highly conservative Mormon friends. Interesting because I really decided to

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Speaker 3: immerse myself. I read and studied so much of their scripture,

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Speaker 3: their history. I became really really immersed in it because

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Speaker 3: I wanted to learn how to connect with them what

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Speaker 3: it all meant. And I think a little bit also

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Speaker 3: during that time, I was interested in trying to find

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Speaker 3: out how to have almost like evangelical conversations with them.

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Speaker 3: I think I was interested and seemed if I could

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Speaker 3: almost make a dent as a Christian in the Mormon care.

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Speaker 4: You're like a lawyer, are you kind of like studying.

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Speaker 3: To Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's dismantle what they're saying.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't great, but that that was I almost felt

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Speaker 3: like I had to in order to live in that

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Speaker 3: culture and just get by in the extreme minority. That's

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Speaker 3: a little bit about my upbringing.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, how interesting too that such a large amount

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Speaker 2: of exposure to a different religion that can often become

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Speaker 2: very fundamental is a thing that sort of helped you

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Speaker 2: out of yours? And what was it about learning about

341
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Speaker 2: Mormonism that kind of woke you up a little bit?

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Speaker 3: I think what it's sort of awakened in me was, oh,

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Speaker 3: my gosh, we're actually not that different. I saw them

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Speaker 3: as more high control, certainly more culty than like the

345
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Speaker 3: group I was in. But as I got older and

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Speaker 3: I saw sort of the juxtaposition between like their beliefs

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Speaker 3: and my beliefs, I was like, it's not all that different.

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Speaker 3: And that sort of prompted me to ask questions about

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Speaker 3: my own faith and great bringing. And it also taught me,

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Speaker 3: from a very i think early age to think really

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Speaker 3: critically about this stuff because I was forced to encounter

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Speaker 3: it every day.

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Speaker 2: For listeners, Ashlynd knows my mother, of course she does.

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Speaker 3: We'll talk about her at some point, I'm.

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Speaker 2: Sure, yes. But something you know she talks about a

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Speaker 2: lot is the importance of hearing other people's stories or

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Speaker 2: getting to, you know, having a point of reference, something

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Speaker 2: to compare your group too, being the thing that can

359
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Speaker 2: sort of wake you up as opposed to somebody telling

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Speaker 2: you you're wrong, just kind of like drawing, making those

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Speaker 2: connections for yourself and it sounds like that's kind of

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Speaker 2: what happened with you.

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Speaker 3: We use that within the intervention world as well when

364
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,960
Speaker 3: we have conversations with people who are in groups, and

365
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,040
Speaker 3: I refer to that and as a third party processing,

366
00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:44,120
Speaker 3: it's much easier for people to provide commentary on other

367
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Speaker 3: people's experiences right, not so much their own right. And

368
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,800
Speaker 3: when they do that, you can kind of hear and

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00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:55,120
Speaker 3: listen to what their perspectives are on that, and they

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Speaker 3: will then in turn sort of start to connect the

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Speaker 3: dots in their own way during their own times. Yeah,

372
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,800
Speaker 3: it's a very effective tool actually for people in groups.

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Speaker 2: Tell us about how you came to become a professional

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Speaker 2: in the cult intervention and recovery space.

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Speaker 3: Sure. So I graduated college moved back to Utah because

376
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Speaker 3: I missed being close to my family. I missed, you know,

377
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Speaker 3: being closer to my brother there. I also, I think

378
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Speaker 3: just kind of missed the culture of home. Like I

379
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 3: loved growing up there, even though it was challenging. I

380
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 3: loved the mountains. There was just so much about it

381
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Speaker 3: that I loved. And once I wasn't there, I was working,

382
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Speaker 3: you know, I was bartending for a bit, I was

383
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Speaker 3: working in restaurants. I was just trying to like figure

384
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Speaker 3: out what to do and apply for after just getting

385
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Speaker 3: a degree. Just getting a bachelor's degree out of college

386
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,359
Speaker 3: was one of my most challenging times and actually finding

387
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,160
Speaker 3: work because it's not quite a master's and you don't

388
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,119
Speaker 3: have the experience, and so you're just kind of looking

389
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 3: for any entry level thing. And I was really interested

390
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 3: in helping other people who had been through some sort

391
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 3: of similar transition in their life, whether that was a

392
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 3: loss of community of faith crisis. And I started volunteering

393
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Speaker 3: at a nonprofit in the Salt Lake City Valley and

394
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,159
Speaker 3: it was very very small. There was maybe like there

395
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Speaker 3: was like five employed staff when I was there, and

396
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 3: they brought me into talk to women in this nonprofit,

397
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Speaker 3: I should say, helped people who were exiting diverse Polygonist

398
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:50,439
Speaker 3: communities all across the Western US, And they brought me

399
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 3: in to like speak to women who had left different

400
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 3: Polygamist groups. And when I say polygamists, I should probably

401
00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:00,639
Speaker 3: say for the listeners, this is Mormon fundamentalist in this groups.

402
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 3: So there's obviously a lot of history there as to

403
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 3: how that all happened. But these are people who decided

404
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 3: to keep practicing polygamy and felt that that was the

405
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 3: truest form of the Mormon faith to continue on into

406
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,399
Speaker 3: the present day. And they noticed how I interacted with

407
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 3: the women, and you know, it's kind of like you

408
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,399
Speaker 3: put survivors who've been in a high control group in

409
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Speaker 3: a room, and it doesn't matter what group they necessarily left,

410
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 3: or how extreme or not extreme, they find ways to

411
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 3: just get on, to just connect, to make jokes to like,

412
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 3: you know that you just kind of get each other.

413
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Speaker 3: They noticed that the people who worked at this nonprofit,

414
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 3: and so a job positioned open up to be a

415
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 3: case manager, and I applied and I got the job.

416
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,399
Speaker 3: So I was one of like two case managers in

417
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 3: the Salt Lake City Valley working with women and children

418
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 3: and young boys who were fleeing these different groups. And

419
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,159
Speaker 3: that involved working with people leaving the Kingston Clan, the

420
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:08,360
Speaker 3: Apostolic United Brethren Communities, the FLDS, and of course there's

421
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:13,680
Speaker 3: other smaller groups that are independent and yeah, so I

422
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 3: started working there and experienced very quickly what it's like

423
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 3: to work with cult survivors and crisis. I was getting

424
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:26,120
Speaker 3: women to safe houses. I was pulling tracking devices out

425
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,959
Speaker 3: from under their cars. I was with law enforcement. I

426
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 3: was getting gang stocked by the Kingston Clan late at

427
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 3: night p Lake City. I encountered so many things at

428
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 3: such an early age that was very unique. And I

429
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 3: absolutely loved the work. I loved the clients. I loved

430
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 3: just helping people get resources and get on their feet.

431
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 3: And I helped moms get their GEDs for the first time.

432
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Speaker 3: I mean I I just loved the work. It was

433
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 3: a very very dangerous work though, because men within these

434
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 3: communities they knew me, they knew my other case manager,

435
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 3: they did not like us, and so we experienced a

436
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 3: lot of threats and it kind of got to a

437
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 3: point where it was really nasty. Yeah, And so I

438
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 3: just I got involved with the International Cultic Studies Association

439
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 3: and I presented at a conference back in like twenty

440
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 3: eighteen in Philadelphia on my work, and a job positioned

441
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 3: open up with them, and a director was like, you

442
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 3: should apply for this thing, and so I did, and

443
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 3: I got hired to work for the International Cultic Studies Association,

444
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 3: and I worked there for about three and a half years.

445
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 3: They're one of the longer standing nonprofits that haven't been

446
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 3: sued into the ground by cults. Yeah, and so I

447
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 3: worked there for about three and a half years. Yeah.

448
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 3: So I worked for ICSA for about three and a

449
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,239
Speaker 3: half years. That was a time where I really got

450
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 3: plugged in with professionals working all across the industry, lawyers

451
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 3: and then a health professionals, survivors or families who have

452
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 3: been around in cult recovery for many, many years. And

453
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 3: so I'm really grateful for my time spent there. I

454
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 3: was there for three and a half years. I was

455
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 3: director of events. I was running the workshops, the conferences,

456
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 3: my neurodivergence was put to the test. I was running

457
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 3: all the things, and I got my master's degree in

458
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 3: the psychology of course of control. I really wanted to

459
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 3: understand more about the psychology of radicalization, why people join

460
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 3: these groups, why they leave, why they stay. I met

461
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 3: Pat Ryan and Joseph Kelly also during that Manchester trip

462
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 3: back in twenty nineteen, and they are sort of veteran

463
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 3: cult interventionists. They've been in the field working with families

464
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 3: for over thirty five years or something crazy. We stayed

465
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 3: in touch and we just got really close, and I

466
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 3: knew that I wanted to be doing the work that

467
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 3: they were doing. I really missed doing more of the

468
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 3: intervention work. I was more so in like a administrative

469
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 3: director events role, and so I was looking for ways

470
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 3: to transition to do more of the intervention work with families.

471
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 3: But as you guys know, there's not a career path

472
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 3: for any of this, not at all. Like, if you

473
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 3: want to work with people who've left cults, you kind

474
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 3: of have to just figure out how to do that

475
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 3: and in which way do you want to go to

476
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 3: the therapy route? Do you want to go to the

477
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 3: social work route? And I had such unique experience in

478
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 3: Utah that they're like, we think that you could actually

479
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 3: really do this work and be really good at it. Yeah,

480
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 3: So I work alongside them on different cases. I started

481
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 3: people leave cults after getting my master's degree, and also

482
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 3: work with survivors who are out of groups for peer

483
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 3: support groups online and just want to help trioge them

484
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 3: to resources. Because I have so many connections with people

485
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:05,959
Speaker 3: in the field, I don't want them to have to

486
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,719
Speaker 3: put in a lot of work especially when they're in

487
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 3: crisis and just looking for help, and I'm happy to

488
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 3: do a consult with them and just be like, here

489
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 3: are some places where you can go.

490
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: How long does it take you to kind of process

491
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 1: what you went through and be able to help other people.

492
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 3: So I did a really poor job at that when

493
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 3: I started out in Utah. I think because I was

494
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 3: working with a population where it made me feel like

495
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 3: my experiences weren't all that bad. I didn't experience child

496
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 3: underage marriage, I didn't experience a lack of education, I

497
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 3: didn't experience poverty to the degree that these people did.

498
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 3: And so I think because it's so easy for helpers

499
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,959
Speaker 3: and social workers to just pour ourselves into other people

500
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 3: in crisis, I really did poorly and didn't do a

501
00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 3: good job at addressing my own stuff until probably when

502
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 3: I was working at ICSA was when I got to

503
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 3: a place of like, Okay, my safety is not at

504
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 3: risk like it used to be. I have a full

505
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 3: time job. Now I can now take some time start

506
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 3: the therapeutic process. What would have been the better route

507
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 3: would be to do that first before helping other people,

508
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 3: because oftentimes, when survivors aren't healed themselves, we in the

509
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 3: process can do harm, even unknowingly when we're working with

510
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 3: other survivors, And so that was something that I learned

511
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 3: in real time was just But I think part of

512
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 3: it too was I kind of needed the time and

513
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 3: separation to work with other people who had been through

514
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 3: it for me to almost have the perspective of, oh,

515
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 3: these are things that I need to still work on

516
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 3: and I need to think about. Yeah, I just I

517
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 3: was so young. I was in my early twenties and

518
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 3: we're still trying to figure out who we are anyways,

519
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 3: you know, and I think, like, I think I kind

520
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 3: of needed that time and re established safety to like

521
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 3: do more deep dives in therapy into my own experience.

522
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 2: How do you define a cult?

523
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 3: Sure, so I actually really like my favorite definition is

524
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 3: probably the longest one that's available, and it was west

525
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 3: In Langoni who authored this definition many many years ago.

526
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 3: I think it was back in the eighties that I

527
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 3: have cited on my website that they provided this definition.

528
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 3: A cult can be defined as excessive devotion to a person, idea,

529
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 3: or thing. It is usually a group in that it's

530
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 3: more than one person that adheres to this or I

531
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 3: kind of think of it as too like. Obviously, domestic

532
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 3: violence relationships can very cult like. And that's two. The

533
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 3: group prioritizes its group beliefs and practices over individual autonomy,

534
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 3: or there's a restriction of autonomy essentially, and that can

535
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 3: be done through course of practices and doctrination. So that's like,

536
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 3: in very very simplistic terms, how I shorten the very

537
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 3: large definition and you can look at that very long

538
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 3: definition on my site on the what is a cult tab?

539
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 3: My sort of perspective on cults. It may not be

540
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 3: the most popular perspective. I think the term cult is very,

541
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 3: very complex. It's very nuanced. There's not one agreed upon

542
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 3: definition in the field as to what a cult is,

543
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 3: although we have many good definitions. I care more so

544
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 3: about not whether a group is labeled as a cult

545
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 3: or not a cult. I care more so about the

546
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 3: individual's experience. Did they have a cultic relationship with the

547
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 3: person or group in question right, and if so, how

548
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 3: like how were they harmed? And one of the reasons

549
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 3: why I sort of approach it that way is because

550
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 3: defining a cult is just half of the puzzle for

551
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 3: me in seeing how maybe groups line up with that definition,

552
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 3: how they use course of control and doctrination and things

553
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 3: like that. But I think the other half is just

554
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 3: everyone's experience and groups are so diverse. Like I worked

555
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 3: with women who were involved in polygamist groups who felt

556
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 3: like their experience was relatively good, they just lacked resources

557
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,719
Speaker 3: and they needed more resources for their kids. And then

558
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 3: I worked with women who were trafficked as young girls

559
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 3: to be married and had horrific experiences of abuse. And

560
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 3: everyone's experiences is so diverse. And that doesn't mean that

561
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 3: these groups aren't harmful. I certainly classify them as you know, harmful.

562
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 3: But the term cult can also be used as such

563
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 3: a thought stopping technique, as Robert J. Liften coins it,

564
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 3: it's like just labeling someone as a Democrat or Republican

565
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 3: or you know. It's like it's one of those terms

566
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 3: that can make people defensive, shut down the conversation. And

567
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 3: so I like to leave it up to survivors as

568
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 3: to how they want to define their experience. If the

569
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 3: term cult is empowering for them, that's wonderful. If it

570
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 3: is a harmful label for them or just doesn't sit well,

571
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 3: we don't have to use it. And I think that's

572
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 3: prioritizing their autonomy and the recovery process.

573
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 2: Something that we've talked about on here a lot that

574
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 2: you may be referenced on your website a little bit

575
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 2: is when the term is used pejoratively, it can actually

576
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 2: dehumanize and further stigmatize people who really are actually in

577
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,719
Speaker 2: need of help. And sometimes the sort of anti cult

578
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 2: folks can themselves become cult like in there, yes.

579
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 3: Yes it fits into this framework, or you or here's

580
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 3: the ways, and your group is a cult because it

581
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 3: fits into this model or because it fits into this framework.

582
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 3: And I just have a hard time with that, because again,

583
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 3: we're putting very specific boundaries around not just groups, but

584
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 3: people's experiences in doing so, and I think there's room

585
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 3: for both. I always encourage survivors to look at many

586
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 3: different models, see what works, see what doesn't, and like

587
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 3: be really critical of them. Like it's okay to say,

588
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 3: you know, this model doesn't fit my experience or this

589
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 3: framework doesn't fit my experience. I want to help instilled

590
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 3: sort of the critical thinking of that. I don't want

591
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 3: to tell people what their experiences should be defined as, right,

592
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 3: And when we work with families who have loved ones

593
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 3: in groups, we tell them to take the word cult

594
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 3: out of their vocabulary entirely. So we oftentimes just use

595
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 3: terms like abusive group, high control, group, course, or relationship

596
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:07,720
Speaker 3: because sometimes families have unknowingly done harm in the process

597
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 3: of telling their loved one we think you're in a cult, right,

598
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 3: and we know that. Oftentimes people put in that position,

599
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 3: who are in groups will dig their heels in deeper.

600
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 3: They'll try to prove them otherwise, or the group has

601
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 3: told them already, They've prepared them for that argument of Look,

602
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 3: people are going to tell you that you're in a cult,

603
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 3: and this is why we're not one.

604
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 2: What to you is the distinction between a belief or

605
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 2: a group that we think is weird and one that

606
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 2: is actually coercive or high control, whether it's religious, political,

607
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 2: or otherwise.

608
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 3: Sure, you know, obviously there's a lot of weird beliefs.

609
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 3: I have several, I think we all do, Megan, I

610
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 3: do want to know one of your weird beliefs go further.

611
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 4: I mean, just you know, I believe we're in it.

612
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 4: We live in a simulation.

613
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's that's fine, that's your your that's your like,

614
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 3: you know, belief. So if the belief is interfering with

615
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 3: your ability to have a well functioning life within society,

616
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 3: within yourself, Like if you're having a really hard time

617
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,760
Speaker 3: with your mental health because of that belief structure or system,

618
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 3: that causes concern for me. And I think when you

619
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 3: say simulation, I actually can I use this as an

620
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 3: example because I think it's a leading example. I think

621
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,760
Speaker 3: where I have seen that go in a very bad

622
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 3: way is, for example, when QAnon was at its height

623
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 3: and there was that sort of part of QAnon where

624
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,760
Speaker 3: they believe Joe Biden was a lizard person the White

625
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 3: House is a set that became more than just a

626
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 3: conspiracy or a belief. It became well, I don't know

627
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 3: what's actually real in life anymore, and they needed more

628
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 3: immediate psycheaatric crisis care. And so that was sort of

629
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 3: the turning point for some folks, sadly who were that's

630
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 3: when the belief became a point of crisis. I also

631
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 3: think beyond just functioning mental health is will the group

632
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 3: allow you to prioritize yourself at any point during the

633
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 3: belief process. So if something isn't feeling right, if something

634
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 3: isn't sitting right, can you say I don't agree with

635
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 3: that point or I actually disagree with that perspective and

636
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 3: still find community within that group or system without being punished,

637
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 3: without being shunned, without you know, facing yeah, like any

638
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 3: sort of negativity, or like there should be a fluidity

639
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 3: or flexibility I feel like in beliefs, because beliefs can

640
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 3: change the change from person to person, from group to group,

641
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 3: from place to place. And so if you change your

642
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,720
Speaker 3: belief or say, you know, I think this one sits

643
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 3: well with me, but this one doesn't, okay, then you're out.

644
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 3: That's a very unhealthy I feel like form of belief structure,

645
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 3: and I think that is the structure that often leads

646
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:24,919
Speaker 3: to cults or high control groups is when people say,

647
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 3: you have to adhere to this, even if it's to your.

648
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 4: Own detriment and no questions.

649
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 3: No questions. Right, If it's to your own detriment and

650
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 3: it's not prioritizing your mental health or your needs, that

651
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 3: is a red flag for me. And that's what I

652
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 3: try to talk to people a lot about. Cults can

653
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,919
Speaker 3: be absolutely destructive, and at the same time, what makes

654
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 3: them so complex is cults can also be life saving

655
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,760
Speaker 3: to certain people and at certain points in their life

656
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 3: so that's the sort of paradox we have to work within.

657
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 2: Politically speaking, this accusation gets thrown around a lot. Obviously

658
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,320
Speaker 2: there are political cults who are literally physically present together.

659
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 2: That does happen, But typically I think this term is

660
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,359
Speaker 2: sort of used for entire political parties or ideas. And

661
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 2: I also get a lot of comments about how Democrats

662
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 2: are unicult, or how liberals are in a cult, or

663
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 2: how leftists are in a cult. You know, just like

664
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 2: depending on where somebody is on the political spectrum, Neoliberalism

665
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 2: is a cult, Republicans are like everybody thinks everybody else

666
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 2: is a cult. Yes, politically right now.

667
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: The two party system has like kind of forced us

668
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 1: to slightly be in one.

669
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 3: I think this, yeah, And I think when it does

670
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 3: sort of put us in different factions automatically, it is

671
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 3: very complicated. And what you're saying, Lola, is a perfect

672
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 3: example of how term cult is being used as a

673
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 3: thought stopping technique. Like they're Republican, they're in a cult

674
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 3: where they voted for Trump. They're in a cult, or

675
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,479
Speaker 3: they're progressive, they're woke, they're in a cult, the cult

676
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 3: of wokeism. Right, you know, we've all heard.

677
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 2: That and it's NonStop.

678
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 3: Can absolutely be extremes on either side. I like to

679
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 3: go back to again the definition of mental health. How

680
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 3: it's affecting how we're interpreting and interacting with people who

681
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,280
Speaker 3: share diversities and opinion I think is really important. Obviously,

682
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 3: your own safety and mental health shouldn't be in detriment.

683
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 3: So for example, if you have a family member who

684
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 3: is a white supremacist and you don't feel safe or

685
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 3: comfortable interacting with them, that's a very valid reason to

686
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 3: not interact with them. But for other people who are

687
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 3: more I think there's just a lot of people who

688
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 3: are sort of in the gray and maybe don't know

689
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 3: how to look at the system and how to vote.

690
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 3: And I think there's more people out there than not

691
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 3: and looking for ways to connect and still be in

692
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:10,320
Speaker 3: community and look for ways to help our neighbors. I

693
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 3: think is really important. And I worry about social media

694
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 3: just really putting people in such extreme echo chambers.

695
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 4: That's insane.

696
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, I really really worry about that.

697
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 1: To be honest with you, the scariest part for me,

698
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 1: and we talk about this all the time, is that

699
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 1: the comments are curated to.

700
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 4: Like you, you.

701
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 1: Know, so like your your world belief is just constantly

702
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 1: being confirmed to like I scrolled at the comments and

703
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 1: I know that's wild. So yeah, the social media thing

704
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: is just such a I know it is.

705
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,320
Speaker 3: It's you want to talk about a simulation.

706
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 4: That exactly exactly.

707
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 3: It's very very hard. And after the election, I really

708
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 3: tried to be off social media as much as possible

709
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 3: and just like be in the world and why still

710
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 3: interacting with folks and just living Hollywood normally. And and

711
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 3: you know, from an intervention perspective, I've had cases where

712
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 3: it's certainly extreme, right where you have families who lost

713
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 3: a loved one to sort of the Q and on

714
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 3: stuff for a while, and that's less and less now

715
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 3: than it was back then. But I've also worked with

716
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 3: families who, like I had a family who had a

717
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 3: loved one in like a very culty left group and

718
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 3: I actually like it had a very like established leader

719
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 3: and like structure and demands and all this stuff. They

720
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 3: were very secretive and actually joined the group to get

721
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 3: eyes on the loved one who was in and see

722
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 3: what I could find out. And I learned I was

723
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 3: able to learn a lot about the structure and and

724
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 3: so it exists on both sides.

725
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 2: I think the level of black and white thinking that

726
00:42:55,640 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 2: we are engaging with as well when characterizing people who

727
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 2: are not in our group is important to consider. Like

728
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,240
Speaker 2: if we if our group is telling us that everybody

729
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 2: else is in a cult, that also is something to investigate.

730
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 3: And that's where it kind of becomes the pejorative use

731
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 3: is when we look at you know, oh, democrats are

732
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 3: in a cult, or you know, if you believe in

733
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 3: any aspect of wocism, you're in a cult. Like it,

734
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,919
Speaker 3: that's when it becomes sort of that term to put

735
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 3: other people down, and like it just limits conversation and

736
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 3: puts people on the defensive. Yeah, again, it's so nuanced,

737
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:37,839
Speaker 3: but we're not taught to think this nuanced about stuff, and.

738
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 2: It's not comfortable, and like it requires stopping and thinking,

739
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 2: which our brains do not like to do because we

740
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 2: take mental shortcuts to conserve energy in our minds. Like yeah,

741
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 2: and holding contradiction is hard, but it's also so important.

742
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:55,720
Speaker 2: I would love to now talk a little bit about

743
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 2: the intervention work and some of the philosophies that you

744
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 2: kind of employ in that work, because you know, we

745
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,399
Speaker 2: talked about this obviously in our interview with Patrick and Joe.

746
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,439
Speaker 2: But it's been a minute. So for those who haven't

747
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:11,399
Speaker 2: heard that, cult intervention today is very different from our

748
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 2: traditional idea of cult deprogramming from like the seventies. Can

749
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 2: you explain what sort of the differences.

750
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 3: Yes, So, the cult intervention field, this largely got kicked

751
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 3: off around the time of Jonestown. Sadly, I think that

752
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 3: families who saw what happened in Jonestown, which was extremely tragic,

753
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 3: if they had a kid who they thought was maybe

754
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 3: involved in a cult like group, they were worried that

755
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,320
Speaker 3: the same thing would happen to them of what happened

756
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,760
Speaker 3: at Jonestown, And there wasn't a ton of information back

757
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 3: in like the seventies as to like how to help

758
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 3: someone who they believed was in a harmful group or relationship,

759
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 3: and so programming was what was done, and it was

760
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 3: highly unethical, It was very sad It contributed to a

761
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 3: lot of trauma. It was a course of practice that

762
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 3: started in the mid nineteen seventies and ended in the

763
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 3: early nineteen nineties. So it involved like highly confrontational methods

764
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:30,800
Speaker 3: to share or force information upon a cult involved person

765
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 3: in order to elicit an emotional response. The father of

766
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 3: de programming his name was Ted Patrick, and he would

767
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 3: hire different teams to go out and oftentimes kidnap people

768
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 3: who were in these groups. They would be thrown into vans.

769
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 3: They actually feared for their lives. Some of them thought

770
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 3: that they were going to die because they didn't know

771
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 3: what was going on. And they would take them to

772
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:59,240
Speaker 3: different hotel rooms or cabins or places and would forcibly

773
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 3: share inform about why the group is bad. And the

774
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 3: theory behind this was that if they extracted them from

775
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,720
Speaker 3: their cultic environment that they would just snap. They would

776
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 3: like come out of this like hypnotic state of being

777
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 3: in a cult. And obviously that doesn't work for a

778
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 3: lot of reasons. But horrific stuff happened during that time.

779
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 3: I mean, there was a young woman I did a

780
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 3: story on this on Instagram named Stephanie who was her

781
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 3: parents hired a programmer because she was in a lesbian relationship.

782
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 3: So it also affected queer folks. And Stephanie's story was

783
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:41,760
Speaker 3: horrific in that the men who programmed her, she said

784
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 3: that she was raped by them. So it's horrible the

785
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 3: stuff that happened during that time. There was a lot

786
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 3: of lawsuits. It really informed people like Pat and Joe,

787
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 3: So Pat Ryan and Joseph Kelly had left groups around

788
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 3: the time that there programming was happening. They left groups

789
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 3: all on their own. And it's not perfect research, but

790
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 3: research shows us that most people who join groups leave

791
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 3: them on their own for different reasons. Megan, you left

792
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:10,839
Speaker 3: a group, Lola, you left a group. I left a group.

793
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:12,320
Speaker 3: It was all for different reasons.

794
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 4: And no one kidnapped us, and.

795
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 3: No one kidnapped us. That's exactly right. At some point,

796
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 3: our shelf of doubts or cognitive dissonance, it breaks, and

797
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 3: it's different for everybody, and there's different reasons why everyone leaves.

798
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 3: There was a research study that was done and there

799
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 3: was ninety four parents who completed this questionnaire. But out

800
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 3: of the different cases, sixty eight percent of people were

801
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:44,320
Speaker 3: forcibly abducted. Thirty seven percent of those too programmed returned

802
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 3: back to the cult, which is very high. The programming

803
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,879
Speaker 3: took an average of eight and a half days, which

804
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 3: is crazy to think about that someone is like in

805
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 3: a room being a program for eight and a half days.

806
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 3: Ten out of sixty two programming ended up in very

807
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 3: substantial lawsuits, and there was more. There was way more

808
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 3: than just ten. But this is just within the survey

809
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 3: that was done. And even like people like Rick Ross

810
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,359
Speaker 3: who runs a cult education institute, he keeps a lot

811
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 3: of really good group archives. He participated into programmings and

812
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 3: was sued back in the day. So there was a

813
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 3: lot of people who were still on the scene who

814
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:23,879
Speaker 3: participated or were involved in some way into programmings. Pat

815
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,359
Speaker 3: and Joe were like, there has to be a better way.

816
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:32,240
Speaker 3: This is ridiculous, this is so much harm being contributed here.

817
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 3: What they did was they wanted to create like a

818
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 3: ethical criteria sort of also like a competency criteria. So

819
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 3: they started to distinguish professionals who wanted to work more

820
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 3: ethically as exit counselors back in like the nineteen eighties,

821
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,439
Speaker 3: so parents knew if they hired an exit counselor, they're

822
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 3: not going to kidnap their kid like a programmer would.

823
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 3: And so they started using the term exit counseling to

824
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 3: view the approaches more voluntary and educational and ethical. But

825
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 3: there was also an additional problem in that anyone could

826
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 3: claim to be an exit counselor, like anyone can claim

827
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 3: to do that and also exit counseling into programming. It

828
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,280
Speaker 3: was still during that time where like programming was the norm,

829
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 3: so the terms were used interchangeably, and so the labels

830
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 3: failed to indicate someone's actions, educations and ethics. So in

831
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 3: a move to professionalize the label in the field and

832
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 3: establish competency criteria, Carol Giambalvo, Joseph Kelly, Patrick Ryan, and

833
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 3: Madeline Tobias developed ethical standards in the nineteen nineties for

834
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:56,280
Speaker 3: what they call thought reform consultants, and you can actually

835
00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:01,399
Speaker 3: look up the ethical criteria for Thought Reform Consolltants, and

836
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 3: they wrote ethical standards and talked about insights into the

837
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 3: principles and practical applications of thought reform through open dialogue,

838
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 3: educational resources, and personal testimonies that adheres to legal and

839
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 3: ethical standards, ensuring a respectful and informative experience. So their

840
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 3: ethical standards were patterned off of ethical codes for like

841
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:34,839
Speaker 3: the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, National Association

842
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 3: of Social Workers, Standards for a Private Practice of Clinical

843
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 3: social Workers, American Psychiatric Association. And they also took a

844
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 3: very radical stance, and that was the purpose of exit

845
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 3: counseling or thought reform consultation was actually not to get

846
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 3: someone out of a cult. That may be the desired

847
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 3: outcome for families, but the purpose was to give the

848
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 3: group member the inform nation that enables them to make

849
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 3: a fully informed choice.

850
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,359
Speaker 2: What does that look like? What does that mean?

851
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 3: Like?

852
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:10,720
Speaker 2: Can you actually intervene with someone who is in a

853
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 2: coercive group?

854
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 3: So, in Layman's terms, what that looks like? Now, Pat

855
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 3: Ryan and Joseph Kelly's approach since like the nineties, into

856
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 3: programmings ended in the early nineteen nineties. So again just

857
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 3: to summarize, the label went from to programming to exit

858
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 3: counseling to thought reform consultation. And our sort of modern

859
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 3: approach is cult intervention specialists. The thing is is when

860
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 3: you think of Google and SEO, people don't google thought

861
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 3: reform consults because they know what that means. So I'm like,

862
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 3: let's just be cult intervention specialists ided here to this

863
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 3: code of ethics. So that's what we do. And our

864
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 3: approach when we work with families is to do no

865
00:51:56,360 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 3: harm so the individual, and what we mean by that

866
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 3: is we only recommend moving forward to interventions if there's

867
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 3: truly opportunities. And if it makes sense when we say

868
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 3: we do no harm is we work very slowly. We

869
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 3: see if we can affect change within the current family system.

870
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 3: The family members already have established rapport, even if it's

871
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 3: not great with the person who's in the cultic group

872
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 3: or relationship, they already have a connection, and if they don't,

873
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 3: we work first to rebuild the connection or to find

874
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:39,879
Speaker 3: ways to rebuild the relationship. Sometimes families inadvertently contribute more

875
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 3: harm just because they don't know how to talk to

876
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 3: someone who's in a cult, and that's why we get

877
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,720
Speaker 3: called into help. And so we see how much work

878
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 3: we can do, either via coaching or what messages we

879
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 3: can send through the family to their loved one to

880
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,879
Speaker 3: see what will be effective. It's a much more low

881
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:06,879
Speaker 3: risk approach than doing an intervention. And when I say intervention,

882
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 3: people think we talk about drug and alcohol interventions. Addiction

883
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,879
Speaker 3: is not the same. That's being indoctrinated into a high

884
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,839
Speaker 3: control group, and so it's actually a very different thing.

885
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:24,320
Speaker 3: I have done interventions with Pat and Joe, and with interventions,

886
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 3: what makes it different is the person who's involved in

887
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:32,760
Speaker 3: the group wants to actually talk to us we don't

888
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 3: force ourselves to talk with them. They have to want

889
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 3: to participate and get to know us and talk to

890
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 3: us in order for that to happen. Now setting the

891
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 3: stage for a good opening, that's a totally different sort

892
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:50,479
Speaker 3: of set of preparation. But I've done interventions with Pat

893
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 3: and Joe before where we talked to someone who was

894
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:58,440
Speaker 3: away from let's just say, an abusive relationship for a

895
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 3: period of time. We had a history of going back

896
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,320
Speaker 3: to the relationship, and so we had a good window

897
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 3: where they wanted to meet us and talk with us,

898
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 3: and we were able to share pretty openly about our

899
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:14,760
Speaker 3: own experiences within groups because it was so different from

900
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:18,239
Speaker 3: their actual circumstance and being in an abusive one on

901
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:23,280
Speaker 3: one relationship that they were really curious about our experiences,

902
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 3: and so using our own stories is again that third

903
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 3: party processing, like we talked about earlier, as a tool

904
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 3: to teach them certain concepts that were applicable to their situation.

905
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 3: It was actually quite effective, and a lot of the

906
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 3: intervention process is the rapport building. Like we when we

907
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 3: come in to do an intervention, we're not doing it

908
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 3: against the person who's involved. We're actually coming in and

909
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 3: telling the cult involved love one. Hey, we've been in groups. Two,

910
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 3: We've had lots of good experiences in groups too. How

911
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 3: can we help your family understand you better? So that's

912
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 3: the approach that we take, and it yields a way

913
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 3: less defensive. It then gets the whole family involved because

914
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 3: they then see us as allies and we can explore

915
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 3: quite openly their concerns, the loved one's concerns, and a

916
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,880
Speaker 3: much less defensive atmosphere. And what we do do is

917
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 3: we prep families for this process. We tell them, you know,

918
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 3: this is kind of how the intervention looks and works,

919
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 3: and here are some questions you can ask us that

920
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:36,799
Speaker 3: we think would be really good for your loved one

921
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 3: to like hear. So some of it is kind of

922
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 3: scripted out, but it's also like very intentional in like

923
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 3: the questions that we're like we're trying to Basically, when

924
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 3: it comes to interventions, you need the loved one to

925
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:56,880
Speaker 3: put the pieces together themselves. You can't spoon feed someone

926
00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 3: in a cult that kind of information. And so how

927
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:04,760
Speaker 3: do we select effective messages to sort of talk about

928
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:08,720
Speaker 3: in an open format? Pat Ryan talks a lot about

929
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 3: he had on the show he left his cult. Shortly after,

930
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 3: back in like the eighties, his dad called him and

931
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 3: he said, your sister's involved in this crazy Christian group.

932
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 3: It was back then, I think it was the Way International,

933
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 3: and he's I guess the dad called in a de

934
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 3: programmer because that was just common what they did. And

935
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 3: I don't think she was abducted though in this instance

936
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 3: or anything horrible like that. But the person came in

937
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 3: the sort of programmer and he asked Pat to be

938
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 3: involved in his sister's to programming. That is still a

939
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:49,520
Speaker 3: part of a Hindu group at this point, and it

940
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:54,399
Speaker 3: was through watching his sister's sort of deprogramming that helped

941
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 3: him decide to leave his own group because it wasn't

942
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:01,919
Speaker 3: at all directed towards him have to be on the defensive, right,

943
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:06,000
Speaker 3: It was, you know, directed towards another person. And he's

944
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 3: sitting there listening to what the person's talking about. He's like,

945
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 3: oh shit, like I think I'm in my own.

946
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 2: Wow, it's amazing how that happens.

947
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, So we we only do interventions if it makes sense,

948
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 3: if there's an opening. Most of the work we do

949
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 3: we work within the family system because knowing that most

950
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 3: people leave cults on their own, How can we make

951
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 3: the family system a safe and supportive place again for

952
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:35,600
Speaker 3: that person to exit too, How do we make the

953
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 3: family system a place where they can be received without

954
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 3: feeling guilt or shame for being involved in a group.

955
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:45,920
Speaker 3: So that's I would say, the majority of the work

956
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:46,400
Speaker 3: that we do.

957
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 2: So it's more about reducing conflict between the family members

958
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 2: about it, and as they rebuild that relationship together, that

959
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 2: can create a safer space to exit if they if

960
00:57:58,560 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 2: and when they're ready.

961
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:00,720
Speaker 3: It's a harm reduction model.

962
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 4: And if there's an accidental deconstruction, then.

963
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 3: Oop, that's exactly right, it's a harm reduction model. I

964
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 3: think the trickier part is families hire us thinking that

965
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 3: we can just get their loved one out of a group,

966
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 3: and part of the work we do is educating them

967
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 3: about why that's not We don't have the magic words

968
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 3: to just tell someone to leave a cult, and how

969
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 3: we can respect their autonomy through the process, and so

970
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:35,040
Speaker 3: it takes a lot of education. And also the families

971
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:38,720
Speaker 3: have to be willing to change what they're currently doing,

972
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:42,760
Speaker 3: which can be hard because what they're doing has not

973
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 3: been working, or else they wouldn't have contacted us. And

974
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 3: so families have to be open to us bringing in

975
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 3: a therapist to work with them, to receiving feedback and criticism,

976
00:58:55,720 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 3: to being challenged by us on certain things. I think

977
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 3: that's the hardest buy in I think for families is

978
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 3: they think they have an idea as to how cults work.

979
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 3: They just want their loved one out, But there may

980
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:15,800
Speaker 3: have been some very valid reasons as to why they're

981
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 3: loved one enjoying that group in the first place. So

982
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 3: we have to kind of like it's just a very

983
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 3: it's a much more investive process and requires change, and

984
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 3: like also the families accepting more personal responsibility, if that

985
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 3: makes sense, And so it's not an easy fix.

986
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 4: It's work for everyone.

987
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 2: One of the dangers of the sort of cult intervention

988
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 2: space is that there are people and families who are

989
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:55,600
Speaker 2: in such a vulnerable place and so desperate and willing

990
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:58,600
Speaker 2: to spend all their money and try whatever it takes.

991
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:05,760
Speaker 2: And it's so crucial that there be accountability within the

992
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 2: community of the intervention folks. Can you talk a little

993
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:11,480
Speaker 2: bit about what that can look like.

994
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it doesn't become another cult.

995
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 3: Exactly, Yeah, especially because there's not a career path towards

996
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 3: becoming a cult intervention specialist. As a cult intervention specialist

997
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 3: as defined by the code of ethics that I adhere to.

998
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 3: In that patent Joe adhere to, there are requirements in

999
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:38,320
Speaker 3: that we have a responsibility as consultants towards professionalism, so

1000
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:40,920
Speaker 3: we're required to give a portion of our time to

1001
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 3: related work for which there is little or no financial return.

1002
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:45,160
Speaker 2: Love.

1003
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:50,560
Speaker 3: I volunteer and run a meetup out here in Portland,

1004
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:52,880
Speaker 3: and I even volunteer to run a conference out here

1005
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 3: in Portland this past year to get education and resources

1006
01:00:55,960 --> 01:01:00,320
Speaker 3: out to survivors and helping professionals. So that's one criteria.

1007
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:06,960
Speaker 3: Another criteria is we have an obligation to continued professional growth.

1008
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 3: We have to be an active participation with other fellow

1009
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 3: consultants as well as participation in research and public education programs.

1010
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:20,840
Speaker 3: And I do that. I actively work when we have

1011
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:24,600
Speaker 3: families who come to us. I never take a case

1012
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 3: by myself. Pat and Joe also don't either unless it's

1013
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 3: a situation where there's like very specific hourly work, like

1014
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 3: could you provide research or information on this right, But

1015
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:42,400
Speaker 3: when it comes to giving any type of advice or strategy,

1016
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 3: I work alongside a specialized team. It doesn't have to

1017
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 3: always involve Pat and Joe. Sometimes I just pull in

1018
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 3: Joe on a case. And we also like to bring

1019
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 3: in a therapist, even if it's just for a few

1020
01:01:56,680 --> 01:02:00,160
Speaker 3: hours during the assessment, to work with families. Joe and

1021
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 3: I are more of the strategic consultants who come in

1022
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:07,640
Speaker 3: and we're doing cult recovery and education, and we're doing

1023
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:10,560
Speaker 3: the strategy as to how to move forward. Someone like

1024
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 3: a mental health professional can come in and check in

1025
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 3: on the family, how are they doing with all this information,

1026
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:19,240
Speaker 3: and also work a little bit with like family systems therapy,

1027
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 3: if you know what I mean, like working within the

1028
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 3: family dynamics. So I see that as an opportunity for

1029
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:33,400
Speaker 3: accountability and collaboration. So I never take cases by myself.

1030
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:36,600
Speaker 3: And it also reflects our code of ethics that we

1031
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 3: adhere to. And you know, we have to go through

1032
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:45,120
Speaker 3: continuous efforts also to improve our practices, teaching services and research.

1033
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 3: Me getting my masters in the psychology of course of control.

1034
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 3: I have research that's pending publication. My experience working directly

1035
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 3: with survivors going on seven years now, I think is

1036
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:02,400
Speaker 3: really important. And so yeah, it's tricky in that like

1037
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:05,600
Speaker 3: we're basically consultants at the end of the day, but

1038
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:07,600
Speaker 3: we don't work.

1039
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 2: Alone either well. And one of the things we talk

1040
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:14,440
Speaker 2: about a lot here is this idea of like easy

1041
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:18,240
Speaker 2: answers and certainty. Part of the reason that cults can

1042
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:22,280
Speaker 2: be so powerful is because they often will provide you

1043
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:24,360
Speaker 2: some of those answers and some of that certainty. But

1044
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:27,000
Speaker 2: real life doesn't necessarily work like that, And the same

1045
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 2: thing is true in the cult intervention space when there

1046
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 2: are promises being made, there's certainty that this will work

1047
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:37,560
Speaker 2: and you will get them out. Like that is irresponsible

1048
01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 2: language because that is also not how actual reality. Necessarily

1049
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:45,560
Speaker 2: we cannot control outcomes of other people.

1050
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:49,480
Speaker 3: It only just contributes to more harm. Right, If someone

1051
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:51,320
Speaker 3: tells you that they can get your loved one out

1052
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:55,120
Speaker 3: of a cult in six months run, yeah, yeah, it's

1053
01:03:55,160 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 3: not realistic in that these situations are so psychodynamic. Someone's

1054
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:03,040
Speaker 3: cult involvement can change from day to day to week

1055
01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:04,720
Speaker 3: to week to month to month, Like we don't know

1056
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 3: when they're going to leave or the circumstances surrounding that,

1057
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:11,040
Speaker 3: and also you're not going to be the sort of

1058
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:14,240
Speaker 3: it contributes to like saviorism. I feel like the sort

1059
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:16,919
Speaker 3: of viroism complex where you can be the person who

1060
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:22,000
Speaker 3: solves this complex problem. And the way I want to

1061
01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:25,240
Speaker 3: look at it is we're just sort of one cog

1062
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:29,960
Speaker 3: in the machine for people and their experiences. People are

1063
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:34,680
Speaker 3: having their own little experiences in cults. They love it,

1064
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:38,400
Speaker 3: they hate it, they're exhausted, they're doing great. You know,

1065
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 3: it's all over the place, and so they're on their

1066
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:45,400
Speaker 3: own track. And messages that we can send through the family,

1067
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:51,680
Speaker 3: you know, certainly can help, you know, with their own

1068
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:55,919
Speaker 3: progression through the group. But promising that you can get

1069
01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:58,320
Speaker 3: someone out of a cult, or that if you're hired

1070
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:03,360
Speaker 3: on a case that you just you can't. It's unethical

1071
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 3: to make those promises. And I'm very clear with families

1072
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:09,080
Speaker 3: from the beginning are where we stand on this ethical

1073
01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:11,800
Speaker 3: stuff and what we can and can't do. And also

1074
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:13,960
Speaker 3: we work a part of a team, like we are

1075
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 3: in this as a team with the family, we like,

1076
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:21,480
Speaker 3: we're all invested on this. Yeah. I see a big

1077
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:23,919
Speaker 3: part of my work as just helping families not feel

1078
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:25,360
Speaker 3: alone in the process.

1079
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:28,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Again, you can really repeat some of these cult

1080
01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:31,960
Speaker 2: dynamics when someone is presenting themselves as the ultimate authority

1081
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:33,840
Speaker 2: on what will or will not happen, how it will

1082
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,640
Speaker 2: or will not work. We just we just don't know.

1083
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 2: We can we can do our best to facilitate information

1084
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:44,880
Speaker 2: and you know, support, but we don't have the answers.

1085
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:47,200
Speaker 2: And if an interventionist to saying that they do have

1086
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 2: the answers, that that is just another example of a

1087
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 2: cult dynamic happening.

1088
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 3: We don't even give specific advice until after an eight

1089
01:05:56,080 --> 01:06:01,440
Speaker 3: hour assessment families. We need to know as much information

1090
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:04,720
Speaker 3: as possible. We do interviews with individuals, we get detailed

1091
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:08,400
Speaker 3: intake forms, We spend hours working with the family to

1092
01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:11,880
Speaker 3: understand the situation before we give any kind of specific

1093
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:14,160
Speaker 3: advice as to how to move forward. I can give

1094
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:17,480
Speaker 3: people general advice like don't criticize the group, take the

1095
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:20,240
Speaker 3: word cult out of your language, and things like that,

1096
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:25,560
Speaker 3: but we move very slowly and that's part of our

1097
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:31,320
Speaker 3: do no harm approach. People who move very quickly towards

1098
01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:35,280
Speaker 3: just gathering the whole family and doing an intervention I

1099
01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:37,400
Speaker 3: think is one of the most high risk approaches you

1100
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:41,280
Speaker 3: can take, because if that fails, that can do a

1101
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:43,840
Speaker 3: lot more harm and that can make the family system

1102
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:49,160
Speaker 3: enemies through that individual. So if you move towards an

1103
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:53,720
Speaker 3: in person confrontation as like the first step or the

1104
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:57,880
Speaker 3: second step. That is something that worries me as well. Right,

1105
01:06:58,080 --> 01:06:59,320
Speaker 3: it's just so high risk.

1106
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:02,560
Speaker 2: Hearing you say is another thing that comes up frequently

1107
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 2: with many of our guests, which is just that, like

1108
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:09,520
Speaker 2: the direct attack on the belief system or on the

1109
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:13,880
Speaker 2: leader or group often has the opposite effect that we want.

1110
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:17,480
Speaker 2: And because it's so you know, it's so much a

1111
01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:20,640
Speaker 2: part of the person's identity, and if you are attacking

1112
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:23,720
Speaker 2: their identity, their community, the people that they love, that

1113
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:27,000
Speaker 2: can often just make them, you know, push them further away.

1114
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:30,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, individuals and groups have been trained to counter your

1115
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:33,320
Speaker 3: arguments from the group itself.

1116
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:38,840
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, yeah, So can you share some strategies that

1117
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:43,880
Speaker 2: have been effective in helping people rebuild their identities after

1118
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:46,640
Speaker 2: leaving a group? Who am I now? What am I now?

1119
01:07:46,760 --> 01:07:47,600
Speaker 2: Do I believe?

1120
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:51,520
Speaker 3: Oh? After leaving a group? Margaret Singer talks a lot

1121
01:07:51,560 --> 01:07:55,600
Speaker 3: about how cult recovery is sort of this like too

1122
01:07:56,080 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 3: pronged approach. Therapeutic sources are extremely important for people. Having

1123
01:08:06,240 --> 01:08:10,400
Speaker 3: really good therapy is important. But I also add the

1124
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:12,880
Speaker 3: caveat that there are some people who have been involved

1125
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:16,560
Speaker 3: in therapy cults or who have had an abusive relationship

1126
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:19,120
Speaker 3: with a therapist and therapy may not be right for them,

1127
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:23,639
Speaker 3: and that's okay. Therapy is not the only right way,

1128
01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:28,080
Speaker 3: and there's a lot of talk about finding also a

1129
01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:32,559
Speaker 3: cult informed therapist. The reality is they can be very

1130
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:38,040
Speaker 3: expensive because this is highly specialized. Many of them don't

1131
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:41,840
Speaker 3: take insurance, and that's not a criticism of them. I

1132
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 3: certainly understand the problems with insurance right now and all

1133
01:08:45,320 --> 01:08:52,200
Speaker 3: of that, but I always encourage people that being in groups,

1134
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:57,479
Speaker 3: being in a cultic environment, experiencing indoctrination. There's actually a

1135
01:08:57,600 --> 01:09:02,160
Speaker 3: DSM category for people who've been in cults, and it's

1136
01:09:02,320 --> 01:09:10,000
Speaker 3: identified other under under other disassociative disorders due to the

1137
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:15,439
Speaker 3: identity disturbance that cults can leave, and it's like prolonged

1138
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:16,400
Speaker 3: identity disturbance.

1139
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:18,760
Speaker 2: And for people who don't know what the DSM is,

1140
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:20,840
Speaker 2: that's the sort of it's.

1141
01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:24,960
Speaker 3: Kind of like the Mental health Bible exactly, like it's

1142
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:29,680
Speaker 3: what therapists are trained a reference for mental health categorizations

1143
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:30,280
Speaker 3: and things like.

1144
01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:33,720
Speaker 2: That, and it's evolving still. Obviously we are this is

1145
01:09:33,760 --> 01:09:37,600
Speaker 2: not a complete science, but it's the general go to

1146
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 2: Diagnostic Manual exactly.

1147
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:46,800
Speaker 3: And because of this DSM categorization under other unspecified disassociative

1148
01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:50,680
Speaker 3: disorders due to prolonged identity disturbance. Most people who've been

1149
01:09:50,720 --> 01:09:57,080
Speaker 3: in cults have complex trauma and c PTSD is not

1150
01:09:57,160 --> 01:10:00,559
Speaker 3: an official sort of diagnosis like an and other parts

1151
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:04,519
Speaker 3: of the world. PTSD is right, So most of us

1152
01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:09,559
Speaker 3: who've been in cults have PTSD to some extent. And

1153
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:15,040
Speaker 3: so what I encourage survivors is to find a therapist

1154
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:19,559
Speaker 3: who knows and works really well with people who have

1155
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:24,120
Speaker 3: complex trauma. So if you can't afford like a cult

1156
01:10:24,160 --> 01:10:27,840
Speaker 3: specific therapist, or if there's not in your state, there

1157
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:30,679
Speaker 3: are a lot of therapists who do really good work

1158
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:35,679
Speaker 3: with complex trauma, and you know, we can help either

1159
01:10:35,800 --> 01:10:37,960
Speaker 3: educate them or provide them with some resources if they

1160
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:40,920
Speaker 3: want to learn more about cults. But complex trauma is

1161
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:44,800
Speaker 3: something that I always encourage. If you're looking for therapy

1162
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:47,680
Speaker 3: you can't afford or you can't find cult specific therapists,

1163
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:49,719
Speaker 3: look for someone good in complex trauma.

1164
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:51,479
Speaker 4: That is such solid advice.

1165
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:56,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because most of us have that PTSD

1166
01:10:56,360 --> 01:11:02,519
Speaker 3: label due Tom and we can also present our therapists

1167
01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:06,120
Speaker 3: with that DSM diagnostic criterion and say I was involved

1168
01:11:06,120 --> 01:11:07,880
Speaker 3: in this, this is what I deal with and a

1169
01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:14,080
Speaker 3: lot of survivors deal with dissociation in some way. And secondly,

1170
01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:17,759
Speaker 3: going back to Margaret Singer and cult recovery, psycho education

1171
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:22,960
Speaker 3: is huge in recovery, and that's the work that I

1172
01:11:23,120 --> 01:11:26,800
Speaker 3: do and I focus on is providing It's basically what

1173
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:31,559
Speaker 3: we're doing right now. We're doing education. We're talking about

1174
01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:35,879
Speaker 3: how it applies to the cultic experience, how influence works,

1175
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:39,720
Speaker 3: you know. How I feel like through the process of

1176
01:11:39,720 --> 01:11:43,519
Speaker 3: psycho education, we can start to give ourselves a lot

1177
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:48,960
Speaker 3: more compassion through what we've been through because we did

1178
01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:51,559
Speaker 3: what we had to do in order to survive whatever

1179
01:11:51,720 --> 01:11:55,400
Speaker 3: dynamic we were in, and sometimes it wasn't even by

1180
01:11:55,560 --> 01:11:58,920
Speaker 3: choice for those who were born or raised right. And

1181
01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:03,160
Speaker 3: I think it gives survivors more of a strength based

1182
01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:07,000
Speaker 3: approach to sort of view their experience through. And we

1183
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:12,200
Speaker 3: can look at our experiences and learn from psycho education,

1184
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:17,519
Speaker 3: like the value of learning about this stuff and feeling

1185
01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:20,920
Speaker 3: safer as we continue into the future, feeling more equipped

1186
01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:25,120
Speaker 3: through having this knowledge, and like finding community with others

1187
01:12:25,160 --> 01:12:28,120
Speaker 3: who also have been through it too and who get it.

1188
01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:33,599
Speaker 3: So I think psycho education, therapeutic support, and community can

1189
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:37,599
Speaker 3: really really make a difference for survivors navigating life after

1190
01:12:37,680 --> 01:12:39,600
Speaker 3: a cult. And that's the work that I try to

1191
01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:43,240
Speaker 3: do through people leave cults, is provide different resources across

1192
01:12:43,320 --> 01:12:44,440
Speaker 3: all of those spectrums.

1193
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:46,280
Speaker 2: Amazing, amazing.

1194
01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:48,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, you really demystify a lot.

1195
01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:54,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, my goal is to demystify this stuff because I

1196
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:57,640
Speaker 3: think cult recovery can be kind of scary, understandably, so

1197
01:12:57,840 --> 01:13:01,000
Speaker 3: to engage with and know where to start. We get overwhelmed.

1198
01:13:01,040 --> 01:13:04,800
Speaker 3: And then sometimes we only have extreme experiences that are

1199
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:06,840
Speaker 3: in the media and like we're like, well, how do

1200
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:10,200
Speaker 3: we fit into this? And right, And I think there's

1201
01:13:10,240 --> 01:13:13,799
Speaker 3: a lot of de mystification that can happen through education

1202
01:13:14,240 --> 01:13:18,360
Speaker 3: and I love then, and I think like it just

1203
01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:21,599
Speaker 3: gives our brain different frameworks to view our experience through

1204
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:25,439
Speaker 3: and that helps with healing, Like the brain wants to heal.

1205
01:13:26,200 --> 01:13:28,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love that that brain wants to heal.

1206
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:31,719
Speaker 3: The brain wants to heal. It's true, It's true.

1207
01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:37,439
Speaker 2: My brain certainly does so badly. I was gonna say, yeah,

1208
01:13:37,439 --> 01:13:40,120
Speaker 2: when you don't have a name for I mean, they say,

1209
01:13:40,120 --> 01:13:42,080
Speaker 2: if you name it, you contame it. When you don't

1210
01:13:42,120 --> 01:13:45,559
Speaker 2: have a name or a framework of understanding for what

1211
01:13:45,760 --> 01:13:48,200
Speaker 2: has happened to you or what's currently going on in

1212
01:13:48,240 --> 01:13:50,880
Speaker 2: your brain, it makes it feel so much bigger and

1213
01:13:50,960 --> 01:13:54,320
Speaker 2: scarier and like you're alone. You know, it's just this

1214
01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:57,280
Speaker 2: overwhelm that can happen. But once you can start of

1215
01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:00,240
Speaker 2: start to sort of fit it into terms and like, oh,

1216
01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:02,680
Speaker 2: this is a thing, this is a common dynamic. I

1217
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:05,160
Speaker 2: had that happen in a relationship I was in that

1218
01:14:05,200 --> 01:14:08,679
Speaker 2: was emotionally abusive, and I wasn't familiar with emotional abuse.

1219
01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:12,040
Speaker 2: I thought abuse had to only be physical. And my

1220
01:14:12,280 --> 01:14:15,040
Speaker 2: therapist at the time gave me a book on called

1221
01:14:15,040 --> 01:14:18,360
Speaker 2: The Berbly Abusive Relationship, and reading it changed everything for

1222
01:14:18,439 --> 01:14:20,639
Speaker 2: me because I was like, oh no, wonder, I felt

1223
01:14:20,720 --> 01:14:24,439
Speaker 2: crazy all the time, Oh no, wonder. I kept hoping

1224
01:14:24,439 --> 01:14:26,479
Speaker 2: that if I could just say it in the right way,

1225
01:14:27,040 --> 01:14:30,599
Speaker 2: he would understand. And because in the relationship, I didn't

1226
01:14:30,680 --> 01:14:34,480
Speaker 2: have any of that language, and I just was confused

1227
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:38,600
Speaker 2: all the time and felt off kilter, like something was

1228
01:14:38,680 --> 01:14:41,040
Speaker 2: just off in my reality all the time, and I

1229
01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:43,680
Speaker 2: didn't know why. So once I had that language, it

1230
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:46,800
Speaker 2: was like a light bulb going on and helped me

1231
01:14:46,920 --> 01:14:51,280
Speaker 2: and integrate that experience into my story and you know,

1232
01:14:51,400 --> 01:14:54,840
Speaker 2: it's not this like a morphous, weird, confusing thing that

1233
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:56,160
Speaker 2: happened that feels like it's my.

1234
01:14:56,160 --> 01:14:57,880
Speaker 4: Fault, rung of the ladder.

1235
01:14:58,560 --> 01:15:01,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, and that's true obviously

1236
01:15:01,280 --> 01:15:04,080
Speaker 2: with mental health stuff as well, when we have a

1237
01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:08,320
Speaker 2: disorder or are struggling with mental illness in some way,

1238
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:11,240
Speaker 2: and having psycho education about that also can make a

1239
01:15:11,320 --> 01:15:15,000
Speaker 2: huge difference. So completely agree, is all My point.

1240
01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:20,360
Speaker 1: Is, Yeah, it's really important work, and you're doing a

1241
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:21,400
Speaker 1: fantastic job.

1242
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:25,240
Speaker 3: Thank you. I'm excited. I have been invited to go

1243
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:27,759
Speaker 3: back to speak to a high school in my area.

1244
01:15:29,320 --> 01:15:33,799
Speaker 3: I love talking to young kids about how this stuff

1245
01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:36,320
Speaker 3: works and what it is, and they ask such good questions,

1246
01:15:36,400 --> 01:15:40,360
Speaker 3: and man, this is the stuff that we need criteria

1247
01:15:40,400 --> 01:15:46,280
Speaker 3: on in school, is like influence, indoctrination, like what to

1248
01:15:46,320 --> 01:15:48,760
Speaker 3: look out for abuse, Like this is the stuff that

1249
01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:52,160
Speaker 3: young people need to know, and they're just not getting

1250
01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:55,080
Speaker 3: through social media and other formats right now.

1251
01:15:55,640 --> 01:16:01,840
Speaker 2: If anything, it's the opposite and social media yeah yeah yeah.

1252
01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:04,880
Speaker 2: And so where can people find more about you and

1253
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:05,400
Speaker 2: your work?

1254
01:16:05,960 --> 01:16:11,040
Speaker 3: Sure, people leave cults dot com. I offer cult intervention

1255
01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:18,240
Speaker 3: for families and cult recovery consults for survivors, and I

1256
01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:22,040
Speaker 3: am also on Instagram and Facebook. I don't post as

1257
01:16:22,160 --> 01:16:25,639
Speaker 3: much as I should just because I'm so busy with

1258
01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:28,519
Speaker 3: consults sometimes, but I try to post when I can.

1259
01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:32,519
Speaker 3: And if you're in Portland organ and you want to

1260
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:35,840
Speaker 3: attend our free meetups that I help volunteer, you can

1261
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:38,680
Speaker 3: go to safe Portland dot org and find out our

1262
01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:42,120
Speaker 3: meeting schedule there. So that's where you can find me.

1263
01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:48,760
Speaker 2: Okay, thanks to Ashland for joining us and Megan, I

1264
01:16:48,800 --> 01:16:50,680
Speaker 2: have a thought on this one, and I want what

1265
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:53,960
Speaker 2: let me know your thoughts on my thought, okay, which

1266
01:16:54,560 --> 01:16:58,360
Speaker 2: it just to me this idea that intervention really has

1267
01:16:58,400 --> 01:17:00,960
Speaker 2: to be more about harm reduction and allowing people to

1268
01:17:00,960 --> 01:17:04,680
Speaker 2: come to their own conclusions. It all comes back to

1269
01:17:04,720 --> 01:17:07,960
Speaker 2: this idea that you just really cannot control other people,

1270
01:17:08,400 --> 01:17:12,439
Speaker 2: right right, you like, And the only way to remove

1271
01:17:12,479 --> 01:17:15,639
Speaker 2: someone from a high control group is to is to

1272
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:20,599
Speaker 2: totally relinquish control and not have any say in it whatsoever, basically, right,

1273
01:17:20,840 --> 01:17:23,640
Speaker 2: which is so maddening because you're like, but this is

1274
01:17:23,640 --> 01:17:25,759
Speaker 2: for your own good, but it's like, but no, they

1275
01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:28,080
Speaker 2: people have to reach their own conclusions.

1276
01:17:28,720 --> 01:17:28,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1277
01:17:29,000 --> 01:17:32,519
Speaker 1: I mean it's as simple as like just letting your

1278
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:34,920
Speaker 1: I don't know, like letting your friend's.

1279
01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:38,800
Speaker 4: Kids date bad people, you know what I mean, where

1280
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:40,200
Speaker 4: you're like, no, this is bad.

1281
01:17:40,280 --> 01:17:43,120
Speaker 1: I've already dated this kind of kid when I was

1282
01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:44,840
Speaker 1: your age, and like, it's.

1283
01:17:44,920 --> 01:17:46,519
Speaker 4: Has to happen. It just has to be.

1284
01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:47,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.

1285
01:17:47,800 --> 01:17:49,479
Speaker 4: That doesn't really make sense, does it?

1286
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:50,639
Speaker 2: I think it does?

1287
01:17:51,320 --> 01:17:51,639
Speaker 1: Okay.

1288
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:53,400
Speaker 2: My only frame of reference for this in my head

1289
01:17:53,439 --> 01:17:56,160
Speaker 2: right now is Gilmore Girls. Neither of us are parents, obviously,

1290
01:17:57,520 --> 01:18:00,559
Speaker 2: but I would like to be one day and watching

1291
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:01,680
Speaker 2: Gilmour Girls.

1292
01:18:02,080 --> 01:18:04,120
Speaker 4: Laura taught me a lot about it.

1293
01:18:05,240 --> 01:18:08,599
Speaker 2: Laura, I has to accept that Rory wants to date

1294
01:18:08,640 --> 01:18:10,880
Speaker 2: Deane and she's going to do whatever she wants, and

1295
01:18:10,920 --> 01:18:14,479
Speaker 2: she has to learn her lessons on her own. I'm

1296
01:18:14,479 --> 01:18:16,920
Speaker 2: actually dealing with a little bit of this dynamic in

1297
01:18:16,960 --> 01:18:18,720
Speaker 2: my personal life right now, which I won't get into

1298
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:22,080
Speaker 2: great detail about. But I have to accept that I

1299
01:18:22,120 --> 01:18:25,639
Speaker 2: do not have control over another person's actions, even when

1300
01:18:26,720 --> 01:18:30,839
Speaker 2: everybody knows what would be best for that situation.

1301
01:18:31,479 --> 01:18:34,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and of course what the stakes just get higher

1302
01:18:34,400 --> 01:18:36,360
Speaker 1: and hire when it comes to high control groups and

1303
01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:38,519
Speaker 1: if somebody is like, you know, giving away all of

1304
01:18:38,560 --> 01:18:40,040
Speaker 1: their money, and on.

1305
01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:41,559
Speaker 4: Death Store it's so much harder.

1306
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:43,719
Speaker 2: It's just yeah, it's yeah.

1307
01:18:43,840 --> 01:18:47,479
Speaker 1: I really loved the Eating Disorder episode we did a

1308
01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:52,400
Speaker 1: week ago or something about like connecting people to their

1309
01:18:52,479 --> 01:18:54,160
Speaker 1: own inner resources.

1310
01:18:54,439 --> 01:18:59,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, but then you know, to Devil's Advocate myself alway

1311
01:18:59,360 --> 01:19:02,120
Speaker 2: is I think about Derek Black, who is now Adrian Black.

1312
01:19:02,160 --> 01:19:04,800
Speaker 2: But for those who did not hear the episode with her,

1313
01:19:05,479 --> 01:19:08,000
Speaker 2: our Derek Black was the title of the recent episode,

1314
01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:11,120
Speaker 2: and she was a former basically white supremacist poster child,

1315
01:19:11,120 --> 01:19:13,880
Speaker 2: and what we talked about on the episode was sort

1316
01:19:13,920 --> 01:19:17,160
Speaker 2: of the two pronged approach that worked for her. And

1317
01:19:17,200 --> 01:19:21,240
Speaker 2: there have been a few guests where somebody did say

1318
01:19:21,240 --> 01:19:23,840
Speaker 2: to them, this is fucking crazy, what are you doing?

1319
01:19:24,520 --> 01:19:24,760
Speaker 3: You know?

1320
01:19:25,000 --> 01:19:27,880
Speaker 2: And with Adrian, it was like she had the people

1321
01:19:27,880 --> 01:19:29,360
Speaker 2: who are kind to her and that was really what

1322
01:19:29,439 --> 01:19:32,080
Speaker 2: she needed. But there also were people who were making

1323
01:19:32,120 --> 01:19:35,400
Speaker 2: her feel stupid for being a white supremacist, and she

1324
01:19:35,560 --> 01:19:37,800
Speaker 2: was saying that kind It was kind of that combination

1325
01:19:37,920 --> 01:19:41,479
Speaker 2: of both. So really, yeah, I guess like harm reduction

1326
01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:45,639
Speaker 2: does seem to be the most effective. Every professional, every

1327
01:19:45,680 --> 01:19:48,880
Speaker 2: ethical professional in the field basically says this, and there

1328
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:52,080
Speaker 2: are countless examples of it at the same time, Depending

1329
01:19:52,120 --> 01:19:54,320
Speaker 2: on who the person is in their lives and in

1330
01:19:54,360 --> 01:19:57,280
Speaker 2: the person's life, sometimes being like what the fuck are

1331
01:19:57,280 --> 01:19:58,639
Speaker 2: you doing? Can work.

1332
01:19:59,160 --> 01:20:01,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's there's no cookie cutter approach.

1333
01:20:01,880 --> 01:20:04,000
Speaker 2: I guess, but I guess. You can say what the

1334
01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:05,760
Speaker 2: fuck and then they still have to come to their

1335
01:20:05,760 --> 01:20:08,680
Speaker 2: own conclusions. You can't say what the fuck now you

1336
01:20:08,760 --> 01:20:10,360
Speaker 2: have to listen to me. You could be like, what

1337
01:20:10,439 --> 01:20:12,719
Speaker 2: the fuck? Okay, I guess I'll still be in your life,

1338
01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:14,200
Speaker 2: But Dann, the shit's crazy, you know.

1339
01:20:14,720 --> 01:20:17,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you know. We don't know.

1340
01:20:17,800 --> 01:20:21,439
Speaker 1: We don't know, but we're we're interested in finding out exactly.

1341
01:20:23,439 --> 01:20:26,679
Speaker 2: That is the theme of this intro and out tro today.

1342
01:20:26,960 --> 01:20:29,439
Speaker 2: We don't know anything mm hmm, but we do know

1343
01:20:30,200 --> 01:20:33,320
Speaker 2: that we hope you guys have a happy new year,

1344
01:20:33,600 --> 01:20:35,000
Speaker 2: had a happy new year.

1345
01:20:35,120 --> 01:20:39,599
Speaker 1: And hopefully we're gonna have a strong year ahead.

1346
01:20:40,479 --> 01:20:42,920
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for being a listener, and.

1347
01:20:42,920 --> 01:20:45,760
Speaker 1: As always, remember to follow your gut, watch out for

1348
01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:47,000
Speaker 1: ad flax.

1349
01:20:46,840 --> 01:20:49,479
Speaker 2: And never ever trust me.

1350
01:20:50,080 --> 01:20:52,920
Speaker 4: Bye bye.

1351
01:20:54,680 --> 01:20:57,400
Speaker 2: Trust me. As produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

1352
01:20:57,439 --> 01:20:58,800
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.

1353
01:20:58,400 --> 01:21:00,519
Speaker 4: With special thanks to Stacy pear and our.

1354
01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:02,679
Speaker 2: Theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1355
01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:05,760
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1356
01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:09,719
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cultpod, or on TikTok at trust

1357
01:21:09,760 --> 01:21:11,040
Speaker 1: Me Cult Podcast.

1358
01:21:11,200 --> 01:21:14,560
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1359
01:21:14,280 --> 01:21:17,920
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Bebraham

1360
01:21:18,040 --> 01:21:19,080
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1361
01:21:19,240 --> 01:21:21,519
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.