1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati this week how to 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: make clean energy cheap. The UK, the country I now 3 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,959 Speaker 1: call home, has been a shining example of how to 4 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: act on climate change. It created one of the world's 5 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,240 Speaker 1: first climate laws back in two thousand and eight that 6 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: bound the government to reduce emissions on tight deadlines. The 7 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: country has succeeded in rapidly replacing coal with renewables, shutting 8 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: its last remaining coal power plant in twenty twenty four, 9 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: and the ruling Labor government now wants to reach carbon 10 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: free power by twenty thirty, but there's a risk that 11 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: the progress may be undone. The climate law used to 12 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: have cross party support. That's no longer the case. The 13 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: Conservative Party leader Kemy Badenock announced last week that her 14 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: party will repeal the climate law if it gets back 15 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: into power, and the Anti Immigration Party, which these days 16 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: ranks higher in some polls than the Conservatives or the 17 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: incumbent Labor Party, also wants to get rid of the 18 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,279 Speaker 1: net zero by twenty fifty goal. The UK public still 19 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: widely supports climate action and another election won't take place 20 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: for nearly four years, but the cost of living crisis 21 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: and persistently high energy prices are opportunities that anti climate 22 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: politicians are ready to exploit. This is not just a 23 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: British story. Around the world there are politicians successfully pushing 24 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: back on climate policies, but how the UK deals with 25 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: the backlash will hold lessons for others. Today, I'm joined 26 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 1: by Greg Jackson, the CEO of Octopus Energy. Octopus was 27 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: founded in twenty fifteen and has now become the UK's 28 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: biggest energy retailer. Its software subsidiary, Crack and Technologies, serves 29 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: seventy million households in twenty seven countries. Greg also sits 30 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: on a board to support and challenge the UK government's 31 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: Cabinet Office, and he has made his name trying to 32 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: reform and restructure the UK energy market in ways that 33 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: he says, we'll bring down everyone's bills. So, ten years 34 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: into the rise of octoperc Energy, and with the energy 35 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: transition as contested as it has ever been, what is 36 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: Greg's plan to bring down bills and keep the public 37 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: on the green side and can he show that clean 38 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: energy is not only good for climate, but will also 39 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: make Western economies more competitive. Greg, Welcome to the show. 40 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 2: Hey, thanks for having me. 41 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 1: So octopercentergy has founded in twenty fifteen. Today it is 42 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: the largest retailer, serving about eight billion people. 43 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 2: In the UK. 44 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and full disclosure, I am one of those eight million. 45 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 2: I hope we look after the UK. 46 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: I've not had to call any customer care ever. 47 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 2: That's a shame because you'd get a great experience of you. 48 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: There's no problem so far. 49 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: Honestly, it's one of the things by way, when we 50 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:11,239 Speaker 2: first out building Octopus, people said, like, you know, service 51 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 2: doesn't matter, it's just a commodity. But the reality is 52 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 2: we never get a phone call about the commodity. No 53 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 2: one friends up about killer Watt's they found up about money. 54 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 2: Energy is the second or third biggest outgoing for most people. 55 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 2: It's kind of crazy that often it's confusing so giving 56 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 2: out standing service, whether it be through the app, but 57 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 2: if you want a phoneers or email, it's actually really important. 58 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 2: It's amazing to me that so many companies invest loads 59 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 2: of effort in not speaking to customers when every time 60 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 2: they do speak to us it's a chance to build 61 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: a relationship. 62 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: And that probably speaks to some of the reason why 63 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: you went from being a startup in twenty fifteen to 64 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: being the largest retailer. But before we come to how 65 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: exactly you made that happen, help our global listeners understand 66 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: what makes the UK the place where such a success 67 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: story could happen. 68 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 2: When we first started the company, the UK had a 69 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 2: very permissive regulatory regime enabling entrepreneurs and others to start 70 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 2: energy companies. When we started, I think there's about sixty 71 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 2: companies joining the market. My own view at the time 72 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 2: was most of them were kind of like corner shops. 73 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 2: They didn't really offer anything special. But we had a 74 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 2: vision of how you could transform energy to be dramatically 75 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 2: more customer centric and to use technology to drive down costs, 76 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 2: but also to for example, be able to make more 77 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 2: use of intermittent volatile renewables, be able to better manage 78 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 2: the optimization of batteries and electric vehicles, and so on. 79 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 2: So I guess the great thing about markets is you 80 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 2: get to see how different ideas and propositions, how successful 81 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 2: or non successful they are now interesting. Most of the companies, 82 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,679 Speaker 2: by the way that we competed against, ended up going bust. 83 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 2: It didn't matter. I think that as a capitalist, as 84 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: an entrepreneur, you markets and the UK did have that 85 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 2: it's interesting on a global perspective that Europe, Australia, Japan, 86 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 2: and New Zealand have competitive energy retail markets, and outside 87 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: of Texas, the US doesn't. And I think it does 88 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 2: mean that you see more innovation in Europe and the 89 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 2: UK than you do, for example, in the US or 90 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 2: other monopoly markets. 91 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is something that for people who don't 92 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: have open retail competitors, it's a bit hard to rub 93 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: their hand around because the cables and the power plants 94 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 1: are owned by a company that provides you electricity in 95 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: most of the world, and they send you a bill 96 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: and you pay them the bill. But in the UK 97 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,239 Speaker 1: it's different. The owners of the assets can be different, 98 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: the service provider, the bill provider can be different. Why 99 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: is that beneficial? 100 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 2: I think the way you should think about it is 101 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 2: like mobile phone contracts. So in the US you can 102 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 2: choose who your mobile phone provider is, and I think 103 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 2: in Europe and the UK and a few other geographies 104 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 2: you can choose who your energy provider is. So the 105 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 2: wires are owned by a monopoly company. But our job 106 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 2: as a retailer is to do what retailers do in 107 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 2: any market. We have to source the products, so we 108 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 2: will find the cheapest electricity and gas we can for you, 109 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 2: and then we'll work out the pricing and how you pay, 110 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 2: and we'll provide the service. In the old world, you 111 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 2: might say, well, look, you know, electricity is a commodity. 112 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 2: But the fascinating thing about electricity is, for example, among 113 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 2: other things, the price varies throughout the day, every half hour. 114 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 2: The cost price of what we're selling you is changing. 115 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 2: Now if we can essentially sell you more at the 116 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 2: cheapest times and you use a bit less the most 117 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: expensive times, we can bring your price down quite a lot. 118 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 2: Not everybody wants that, but enough people do that we 119 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 2: can make the whole system more efficient for everyone. 120 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: Another core aspect of why you've become so big is 121 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: because of the software that powers Octopus, but also now 122 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: many other utility companies around the world, and it's called Crack, 123 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: and it's so valuable now that you're looking to spin 124 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: it out as its own company that could fetch maybe 125 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: fifteen billion dollars or more. Who knows what was the 126 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: missing piece in this ecosystem. And now we're not just 127 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: talking about the UK, but because you have customers in 128 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: tens of countries, what was it that you so successfully 129 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: exploited My co found. 130 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 2: As I previously had a business that built enterprise software 131 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 2: where technologists at heart, and what we've seen in lots 132 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 2: of industries was that when you built the technology to 133 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 2: serve customers using modern cloud based, internet based AI based software, 134 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 2: you could transform everything. You could reduce the operating costs, 135 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 2: you could create a dramatically better customer experience, and you 136 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 2: could innovate in ways that no one had imagined. We 137 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 2: saw the opportunity to do that in utilities. Utilities globally 138 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 2: just energy utilities globally is a two or three trillion 139 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 2: dollar revenue sector and it runs mainly on mainframes and 140 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: software that's fifty years old. So we saw the opportunity 141 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 2: to build essentially an operating system, end to end software 142 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 2: shop be five for utilities that would enable utility to 143 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 2: be dramatically more customer centric and to operate much more efficiently. 144 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 2: We actually approach the utilities and said, hey, look, we 145 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 2: want to build this software, and utility is said to 146 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 2: us something along the lines of we need somebody to 147 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 2: do it first. It sounds good, but where risk averse. 148 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 2: Someone's got to do it first, and we realized that 149 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 2: actually we would have to build our own utility, Octopus, 150 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 2: in order to be able to demonstrate and develop the 151 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 2: software Kraken. Now, over time Octopus went on to be 152 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 2: a very successful demo client. You know, became the biggest 153 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 2: energy utility in the UK for example, and operates in 154 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 2: very fast growing in a bunch of other countries. So 155 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 2: we were able to not only demonstrate that it worked 156 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 2: for us, but then start licensing it to others. And 157 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 2: today Kraken's licensed around the world. Got seventy five million 158 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 2: licenses from zero four years ago. Five years ago, it's 159 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 2: transformed utilities. What one utility used to employ ten thy 160 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 2: five hundred people and had a customer satisfaction rate of 161 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 2: two out of five. By the staff satisfaction rate of 162 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 2: two out of five they implematic Kraken headcamp fell from 163 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 2: ten thousand to three thousand. Wow, but the staff satisfaction 164 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 2: and the customer satisfaction both went from two five to 165 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 2: four out of five. And they went from losing hundreds 166 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 2: of millions of eurosper to making hundreds of millions. So, 167 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 2: you know, Krackan really does transform organizations. 168 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: If we take the success that you've been able to 169 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 1: create not just in the UK, but through these ideas outside. 170 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: There is one aspect of the UK that has enabled it, 171 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: which is that the UK was committed to acting on 172 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: climate because it passed a Climate Change Act in two 173 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 1: thousand and eight. One of the very I wrote a 174 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: book called Climate Capitalism, which was about solutions to scaling 175 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: around the world, and the Climate Change Act is one 176 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: of those because it's now being copied around the world. Crucially, 177 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: though that was backed by a cross party consensus. We're 178 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: talking on October third. Earlier this week, the Conservative Party 179 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: leader Jimmy Bedenock said she wants to repeal the Climate 180 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: Change Act. The Reform Party, which is sometimes in polls 181 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: higher than Labor or the Conservatives, wants to get rid 182 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: of the net zero by twenty fifty target. What happened 183 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: to the cross party consensus because the public support for 184 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: climate action hasn't fallen that dramatically. 185 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 2: Yes, I think you can't ignore what happened in the US. 186 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 2: You went from an administration that passed the IRA, you know, 187 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 2: one of the biggest commitments to government support for a 188 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 2: specific set of industries in history world changing, to an 189 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:02,439 Speaker 2: administration that use the phrase drill baby drill. I think 190 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 2: that has really set the tone in a bunch of 191 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 2: European countries, including the UK, where there is now an 192 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 2: intense debate about our future of energy. But we can 193 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,439 Speaker 2: step back a sec right. A lot of the policies 194 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 2: that have been pursued, that were set out with good 195 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 2: intent to drive clean energy have ended up putting bills 196 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 2: up now they don't need to. The technology to a 197 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 2: clean energy are getting cheaper every year, and there are 198 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:33,839 Speaker 2: parts of the world where we can really see that now, 199 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 2: making for cheaper energy while getting cleaner, while improving energy abundance. 200 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:45,359 Speaker 2: I think in the UK and parts of Europe, the 201 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 2: markets have not been reformed to enable clean energy to 202 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 2: bring bills down, which means that at the moment, for example, 203 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 2: in the UK, we've just passed a point where we 204 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 2: spent a billion pounds at one point three billion dollars 205 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 2: paying wind farms to turn off on windy days and 206 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 2: paying gas plants to generate instead. Because we've built the 207 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 2: wind farms in the wrong places. We haven't built the 208 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 2: grid to keep up, we haven't built the flexible market 209 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 2: to use that wind power when it's available. What we 210 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 2: should treat all this as as a wake up call 211 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 2: that we cannot pursue clean energy at any cost. We've 212 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 2: got to pursue the lowest cost energy whilst being clean, 213 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 2: and I think that would dramatically change policy. But you 214 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 2: also make the very good point public support has not 215 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 2: collapsed for clean energy. Our polling has shown that consistently 216 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 2: over forty percent of people in the UK support net 217 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 2: zero and fewer than around twenty percent don't support it, 218 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 2: but it's fragile. Our polling also shows that if energy 219 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 2: bills keep going up, support for clean energy for net 220 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 2: zero collapse US from forty percent to thirteen percent and 221 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 2: opposition increases. But if any bills come down, support for 222 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 2: net zero increases and opposition drops. If you care about 223 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,839 Speaker 2: clean energy, you have to start caring about cost. 224 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 1: And this is something you have thought about a lot. 225 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: You've recently been appointed to the UK's Cabinet Board, which 226 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: says on the website to support and challenge ministers. What 227 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: are three recommendations that I am assuming you've already given them, 228 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: that they must do to try and hit both clean 229 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: and cheap. 230 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 2: So my government role specifically doesn't touch energy, because obviously 231 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 2: that way too much of a conflict of interest. I 232 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 2: hope that I can help the government with technology transformation, 233 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 2: but I think in energy, look, I've been pretty outspoken. 234 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 2: I spent the last year urging the UK government to 235 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 2: create a more granular energy market, essentially to have locational 236 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,559 Speaker 2: pricing in the wholesale market. If I could very briefly 237 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 2: explain it, right it in most energy markets there's a 238 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 2: two stage process for seting the electricity price. First you 239 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 2: have an auction, and in the auction, every generator submits 240 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 2: their bids. The most expensive bid to make it through 241 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:11,679 Speaker 2: sets the price that everybody will get paid. 242 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, marginal pricing is margin. 243 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 2: Place, you know, that's the wholesale cost. In the old world, 244 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 2: that worked very well because all the generation was coal 245 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 2: and gas basically, so all the generation had broadly speaking, 246 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 2: the same input costs, so they have a very similar 247 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 2: cost curve in the auction. But today you've got generation 248 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 2: which you know, solar and wind have got no input cost. 249 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 2: So if it's sunny or windy, you've got an abundance 250 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 2: of cheap electricity, but you're still paying them the same 251 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 2: price that you pay people like gas plants who've got 252 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 2: a high input cost, which means you don't get the 253 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 2: benefits of the renewables at the good times, but then 254 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 2: worse than that, you typically have a second stage. In 255 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 2: the UK's called the balancing market. And what happens is 256 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 2: the energy system operator people in charge of the grid, 257 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 2: look at the auction results and like groundhog Day, they 258 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 2: are surprised to find that some of the generators are 259 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 2: in a location where the electricity won't get to market 260 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 2: because there's not enough grid. But they still pay them, 261 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 2: and then they pay somebody else to generate and the 262 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 2: cost of that is growing exponentially because we built our 263 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 2: renewables not in the places where we need the electricity, 264 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 2: but in the places where it was cheapest of whether 265 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 2: you've got the hight substances or whatever. Now that was 266 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 2: okay when renewables were a small part of the system. 267 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 2: Today in many countries in Europe you know the system's 268 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 2: outbreaking point because of the cost and the inefficiency of this. 269 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 2: If we introduce locational pricing, first of all, you'd eliminate 270 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 2: all the waste in that two stage auction, because in 271 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 2: the first stage you wouldn't have a load of generator's 272 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 2: bidding that can't actually supply, and over time you'd encourage 273 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 2: investment into the locations that need it. The highest price 274 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 2: locations would be the most attractive places to build. And 275 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 2: that stuff could be win farms. We also be solar farms. 276 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 2: It could be batteries and consumers. Like you know, in 277 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 2: the high price locations, it's more cost effective them to 278 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 2: put solar panels on their roofs and batches in the homes. 279 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 2: In the cheapest locations, they buy electric cars. That markets work. 280 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 2: We need more markets. 281 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: I know you're very passionate about this, and I know 282 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: this not just because I've seen you in the news, 283 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: but you have been in my bills. My Octomus bills 284 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: had my bill at the top and then an image 285 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: of Greg Jackson with a big sign saying stop this, 286 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: and then click on it. It went to a video where 287 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: you explain all of this as a side note. No 288 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: bill that I get from a utility has that, and 289 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: so I was a little surprised. So I asked my 290 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: energy team and they ran it past Offchem and they 291 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: said off Jim said, there are no rules that restrict this. 292 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: If Octopus is doing it, nobody else is doing it. 293 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: I guess it's other people's lost opportunity to try and 294 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: lobby for what you're passionate about. But there is a 295 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: good reason why the UK has chosen not to do 296 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: locational pricing. You know, if I take the government's view 297 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: on this, they say, look, we've got a clean energy 298 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 1: mission to reach ninety five percent clean power by twenty thirty. 299 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: We have a whole set of transmission lines that we 300 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: know we are going to build, many of them are 301 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: in planning. If we suddenly shift to this new form 302 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: of pricing, there will be a problem because we'll have 303 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 1: to stop building a bunch of things that we were 304 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 1: planning to build, and it will create a rupture in 305 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 1: the market and market's like certainty. So that's the reason 306 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: they've decided right now not to have locational pricing. Is 307 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: there a way where both parties can come to a 308 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: point where locational pricing may be applied to the UK. 309 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: I'm not going to be churlish and keep lobbying for 310 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 2: something that has been ruled out. The reason I explained that, though, 311 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 2: is I think it helps us see the problems we 312 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 2: need to solve in some way. You ask me for 313 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 2: three proposals. The first one was some form of more 314 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 2: granular market, so we can operate the system more effectively 315 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 2: in the attract investments of right places. But the second 316 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 2: one is we need to stop spending so much money 317 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 2: on infrastructure. You talked about the grid bill there, right. 318 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 2: If you can deliver people's electricity needs with less new grid, 319 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 2: that is a good thing. Right, Infrastructure costs a lot 320 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 2: of money, and we also know that in mature economies 321 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 2: it's increasingly hard to build infrastructure. I would say, find 322 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 2: ways to build less new infrastructure and get more out 323 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,360 Speaker 2: of the existing infrastructure would be a very good thing. Yeah, 324 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 2: very briefly on that thing about bills. Look, when we 325 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 2: first started our company, I remember the incumbent said energy 326 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 2: bills are impenetrable because regulation defines what they look like. 327 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 2: And it does. You've got a two page PDF that 328 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 2: is absolutely laid down. This applies almost every country, applies 329 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 2: and the regulated markets the US, it applies all over 330 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 2: the world. But you know, nobody understands what that bill means. 331 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 2: And I think blaming the regulation was an excuse. We 332 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 2: identified that you could attach that PDF to a plain 333 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 2: text email that explains in English, makes it really simple 334 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 2: to know what's going on. I think it's our duty 335 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,360 Speaker 2: to explain to people why energy bills at the level 336 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 2: they are, and so the videos you describe and not 337 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 2: to used for lobbying, you know, I use them to 338 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 2: tell people why bills are high, but I also tell 339 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 2: them about the support we can give them, about ways 340 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 2: you can save money increasingly by the way, you know, 341 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 2: we do things like on sunny days and windy days, 342 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 2: we can give people free electricity over and above their 343 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 2: normal usage because it's abundant, and I tell them about 344 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 2: that in those videos. In the twenty first century, it's 345 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 2: kind of crazy that we still expect to bill to 346 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 2: be the same as it was when you had a 347 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 2: bunch of clerks manually typing them out fifty years ago. 348 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it is very important that people actually 349 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: engage with the energy system. I think for do long 350 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: people have just become familiar with, well, turn the button on, 351 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:57,479 Speaker 1: you'll get power, and you're good to go. We are 352 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: going through a change in our energy system, and the 353 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:02,360 Speaker 1: more people engage with it, the better. 354 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 2: Just on that very briefly right, energy consumption has been 355 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 2: treated as exogenous. That is, it's been treated that people 356 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 2: just use what they're going to use and then they'll 357 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 2: get a bill, and it's a sort of de facto 358 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,679 Speaker 2: outcome of their choice. And the only way you could 359 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 2: save money was by using less. Imagine if we did 360 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 2: that with food. If the only way you could save 361 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 2: money on your food was by eating less food, that 362 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 2: would be a bad thing. However, you can save money 363 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 2: on your food by buying special offers, by buying their 364 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 2: own label beans instead of the branded and someone right, 365 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 2: and you make your choices. If we do the same 366 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 2: in energy, people can save a fortune without using less. 367 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 2: In fact, they can use more, and that's a good thing. 368 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: Join us after the break for more of my conversation 369 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: with Greg Jackson, CEO of Octoperc Energy. And thank you 370 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: to everyone who has written a review of zero recently. 371 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 1: We appreciate all of them and please keep them coming. Recently, 372 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: Tom Key Bowman said this is one of the best 373 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: environment great clarity and practical ideas. Thank you, Tom. Going 374 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: back to bills, there's the fuel costs or whatever the 375 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: cost the power producer is providing you, But there is 376 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: the fixed cost that comes from the infrastructure that is 377 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 1: maintained to keep you know, at least in western countries 378 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: power running all the time. I grew up in India, 379 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: blackouts used to happen all the time. They still happen, 380 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,959 Speaker 1: not as frequently, but they still happen and people are 381 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 1: kind of used to it. But here in the West, 382 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: oh my god, there's a blackout. There's a political crisis 383 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 1: on your hand. So you're saying, spend less on infrastructure. 384 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: What do you do to try and reduce infrastructure costs? 385 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: Because we've been told so many times that we need 386 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: to build out the grid to enable all this clean infrastructure, 387 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: this clean power to move from places where it's being 388 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 1: produced to where it needs it's to be consumed or 389 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 1: to be stored in expensive batteries or some new technology 390 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 1: that will be cheaper than batteries, but it's not ready yet. 391 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: How exactly do you reduce the infrastructure price? 392 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 2: In the old days, when all the powers from coal, 393 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 2: you essentially had massive coal five power stations near the 394 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 2: coal fields because it's expensive to move coal around. In 395 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 2: today's world, solar farms can be anywhere, including on people's rooftops, 396 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 2: industrial rooftops. Increasingly, things like electric vehicles five percent of 397 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 2: the fleet today in the UK, but a third of 398 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 2: new sales. Over time, most economies are going to end 399 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 2: up being majority electric cars. Just give you some UK data. 400 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 2: The UK electricity system is fifty gigawatts. When we've all 401 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 2: got electric cars, the seventy five gigawatts a battery available. 402 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 2: The entire system is going to change and become more decentralized. 403 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 2: You mentioned expensive batteries. Ten years ago, batteries cost one 404 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 2: thousand dollars. Perticular hour last year was one hundred dollars. 405 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 2: The cheapest auction in China is years fifty two dollars. 406 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 2: The world's biggest batter com is now it's a ten 407 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 2: dollar battery. Something you end up with batteries. You don't 408 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: just need grid scale batteries. You can have them at 409 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 2: the end of a street, in individual houses, and of 410 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 2: course the batteries that come for free in electric vehicles, 411 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 2: actually cars, buses, everything. If you're building for that distributed system, 412 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 2: you need dramatically less grid because, for example, you can 413 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 2: store the electricity closer to the point of consumption. It's 414 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 2: something to get your head around in the world of electricity, 415 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 2: which it kind of bonkers, is every bit of grid 416 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 2: is designed for the peak load. It has to be 417 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 2: able to carry the peak load. The peak load might 418 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 2: only be a few seconds a year. But at the moment, 419 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 2: we will spend billions building a power line to handle 420 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 2: those few seconds. If instead we can shave those seconds 421 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 2: off by storing them at a battery and not having 422 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 2: to transmit the electricity avoid the peak, you can save 423 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 2: billions in grid build. We should be building for that system. 424 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 2: And you mentioned that, you know, these are all fixed 425 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 2: cost on the bills of households and businesses. The fixed 426 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 2: cost are brutal because once we've incurred that cost, there 427 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 2: is nothing you can do about it. You can't consume less, 428 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 2: you can't consume differently. You can generate as much as 429 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,360 Speaker 2: like on your own rooftop, you still got to pay 430 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 2: those fixed costs. Minimizing the fixed costs should be a 431 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 2: mission for everyone in energy policy. 432 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: And this idea of having infrastructure that is more distributed, 433 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,719 Speaker 1: so there might still be more infrastructure, but they are 434 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: not the kinds of infrastructure that people opposed, right, you know, 435 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: the opposition for transmission lines is massive, and it's there 436 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: around the world, especially they're an anglosphere, but definitely there 437 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: in most rich countries. And this opposition is not new. 438 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: There was a famous book written by a senator in 439 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: Minnesota in the seventies about a power line that was 440 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 1: going from North Dakota to Minnesota that was going to 441 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: bring coal power to Minnesotans, and they didn't want it. 442 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: It wasn't a green opposition, it was didn't want power 443 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: lines because it was call power at that time that 444 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: was coming. So it was an environmental opposition. And now 445 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: you have the desire that the only way green energy 446 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,919 Speaker 1: is going to be built is if you have also 447 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: these transmission lines. If you know that there isn't political 448 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: support for transmission lines, is it politicians just trying to 449 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: hit on a solution that's never going to work. 450 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think what's happened is we've got stuck 451 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 2: on a path where the consequence of every decision made 452 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 2: so far is that you need more power lines. The 453 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 2: technology has changed, right, No one new batch is going 454 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 2: to get this cheap. No one new solar was going 455 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 2: to be three hundred times cheap, and it was forty 456 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 2: years ago three hundred times. We didn't know these things. 457 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 2: That's okay. Now we know these things, we are mad 458 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,719 Speaker 2: to stay stuck on the path that we had previously chosen. 459 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,120 Speaker 2: You mentioned earlier that you know, investors like policy certainty. 460 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 2: Of course they do, but you know, the investors in 461 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 2: I don't know, retailers didn't get policy certainty when Amazon 462 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 2: turned up. They just had to reform their business models 463 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 2: because technology changed. We need that thinking in energy, and 464 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 2: we really need it now in western countries because you 465 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 2: and I've spoken a lot here about essentially, you know, 466 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 2: euro at, the US, the UK, you mentioned India, you know, 467 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 2: but if we look at, for example, what's going on 468 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 2: in China. Right, seventy four percent of all the renewables 469 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 2: being built in the world today are being built in China. 470 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 2: China became famous for its coal plants, but coal power 471 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 2: plants in China have slowed down to a trickle. Their 472 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 2: utilization rate's dropped from sixty percent to fifty percent. They're 473 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 2: not building this renewables just to look pretty. They're building 474 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 2: because it's going to give them cheaper energy, plus energy 475 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 2: security and tackle their own concerns about environment, pollution and climate. 476 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 2: They're building so much of this infrastructure, so much of 477 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 2: this cheap infrastructure, that they're driving down. The cost a 478 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 2: wind turbin in China is one third the cost to 479 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,479 Speaker 2: win tiebound in the UK. Solar panels that in some 480 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 2: countries now generating at one point two cents per unit. 481 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 2: Americans are typically paying fifteen to twenty cents a unit 482 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 2: for the electricity. In Britain they're paying thirty cents, and 483 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 2: yet we can generate not much more than a cent 484 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 2: in many parts of the world, and batteries are coming 485 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 2: down so much that you can use that solar nearly 486 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 2: twenty four to seven in two thirds of the world. 487 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,400 Speaker 2: If we're not looking at what's happening in other countries 488 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,360 Speaker 2: and we're sticking to the conversations in the sort of 489 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 2: the West, what we really are doing is kind of 490 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 2: locking in on landlines, just as the rest of the 491 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 2: world is building mobiles. 492 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the China model is one that is 493 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 1: so tempting for people who think about climate change and 494 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: who think about the future of energy. There is a 495 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: risk with that model that is not replicable in the 496 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: West because the politics. It's an authoritarian state decides something, 497 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: does it. But you know, it's not socialists, it's capitalists. 498 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: There are real markets there, and there's hypercompetent among many 499 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: of the companies that build many of these solutions, but 500 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: there is a level of inefficiency that the government is 501 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 1: willing to take on to try and make a bet, 502 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: and that bet pays off. In August twenty twenty five, 503 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: China exported if you take just for that month, they're 504 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: green tech exports more than twenty billion US dollars in 505 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,879 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. For the entire year, the total sum 506 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: of US allergy exports was about twenty billion dollars. So 507 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: China is already doing on clean energy exports what the 508 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: US would have loved to have done on fossil fuels, 509 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: but can't even come close to match. And so there 510 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: is clear success story there, but to try and replicate 511 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: them in the West is really hard. UK is a 512 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: small economy, has been a de industrializing country for the 513 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: last fifty years. What do you think the UK can 514 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: do well? 515 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 2: First of all, it's a great data point you had there, 516 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 2: contrasting Chinese exports of clean energy tech with US exports 517 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 2: of LERG. The bit that you didn't mention there makes 518 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 2: it even more powerful is the clean energy exports are 519 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 2: typically selling solar panels, winter mines, and batteries. It's hardware 520 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 2: which once the country has bought it will generate electricity 521 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 2: for a decade or two to come. Whereas with LNG, 522 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 2: the day you buy it, you use it is gone forever, 523 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 2: and so you know you can actually contrast the Essentially 524 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 2: it's a stop versus a flow, and that makes it 525 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 2: an even more powerful contrast. You mentioned the extent to which, 526 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 2: for example, the UK is de industrizing. We can't produce 527 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 2: cheap solar panels here. We can't produce cheap batteries probably, 528 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 2: but you don't need to. Cheap energy underlies every industry 529 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 2: you know, whether it be AI, data centers or clean manufacturing. Typically, 530 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 2: the value in a solar panel manufactured for China is 531 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 2: five dollars, essentially the gross profit whether they make the 532 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 2: value for an installer is two hundred dollars, and the 533 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 2: value for the consumer might be five hundred in terms 534 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 2: of the electricity generated over its lifetime. It doesn't matter 535 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 2: where you make them. What matters is using them. Already, 536 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 2: you talked about their twenty billion dollars of exports in 537 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 2: a single month. At the moment, China is soaking up 538 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 2: the vast majority of manufactures for itself deploying them in 539 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 2: the domestic market. But once its domestic market approaches saturation, 540 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 2: the salespeople for those companies are going to be all 541 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 2: over the world and will be a tidal wave of 542 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 2: clean energy products that will be you talk about politics, 543 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 2: the whole of East Age will be happy with them, 544 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 2: South As will be happy with them. Latin America to extend, 545 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 2: anybody wants that. You're going to have abundant, cheap power available. 546 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 2: And should the West really tie itself in knots on 547 00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 2: the politics and end up becoming a declining economy when 548 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 2: everyone else will benefit from this stuff. 549 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: Well, you are putting some of that to action, right. 550 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: You have built manufacturing for heat pumps here in the UK, 551 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: but some of the parts come from China because China 552 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: makes those parts and they make them cheap, and so 553 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: you take it from them. You've got a partnership with 554 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: BYD now to try and take the battery that is 555 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: sitting in a car but use it not just for 556 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: the car but also to try and charge the grid, 557 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: which is something that people thought one day we'll do, 558 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: but you are starting to do that now with Octopus. 559 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: This idea of using more distributed infrastructure has been there 560 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: for a long time. This idea of using demand flexibility 561 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: where people consume at the time and it's cheapest and 562 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: you encourage them to and they can has been around 563 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: as an idea for a long time, but Octopus is 564 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: putting many of those in action. What have you learned 565 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: from doing that? 566 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 2: If you're as old as may, you remember Appay around 567 00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 2: the ear two thousand when there was a form of 568 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 2: mobile incende called WAP Wireless Access Protocol and if you 569 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 2: tried that, he said, like, okay, the wilds intet doesn't work. 570 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 2: And then two thousand and seven Apple brought a bunch 571 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 2: of technologies together, so you know, batteries that were just 572 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 2: about good enough, multi touch screens that were just about 573 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 2: good enough, processes were just about good enough. Of wild connectivity, 574 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 2: it was just about good and so on to show 575 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 2: that while was not only possible, but it was transformative 576 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 2: for the world. And in the same way, you know, 577 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 2: people have tried this kind of flexible approach to energy 578 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 2: in the past, but we didn't have the technologies. You 579 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 2: need a lot of smart metering, You need a highly 580 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 2: dynamic electricity grid so there's enough variability to actually make 581 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 2: it worthwhile. You need technologies like batteries and APIs interfaces 582 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 2: to manage them, and you need a different form of 583 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 2: consumer relationship because they need to trust and benefit from this. 584 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 2: But once all those come together, this is huge. So 585 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,239 Speaker 2: you mentioned that BYD deal that what we did with 586 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 2: BYD was worked with them on a specification for batteries 587 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 2: that can discharge into your house or the grid as 588 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 2: well as be charged for driving. Enabled us to launch 589 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 2: a product earlier this year, which was for a fixed 590 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 2: monthly fee, you lease a car and then get twelve 591 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 2: thousand miles of free driving year. And you get the 592 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 2: free driving because essentially, when your car is parked, we 593 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 2: will fill the battery with electricity at the cheapest times 594 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 2: and the most expensive times, will sell a little bit 595 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 2: of actuality back to the grid, and with the money 596 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 2: we make from that, we buy back some more cheap 597 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 2: electricity for driving. Collectively, we can give you free driving 598 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 2: and it makes money for us. I mean, what incredible offer. 599 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 2: You can't do that with petrol. And so I think 600 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 2: we do the same for houses. We now work with 601 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 2: house builders to build houses that don't have energy bills 602 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 2: because again in the same way, we've got solar pals, 603 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 2: battery heat pump and we will fill the battery when 604 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 2: it's sunny and then sell some of the electricity back 605 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 2: to the grid at the expensive times and across the year, 606 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 2: we'll use the money we've made from that to buy 607 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 2: you back electricity to run your heat pumpky house one, 608 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 2: and we guarantee no bills for five or even ten years. 609 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 2: Sometimes that's kind of flexibility in action at scale using technology. 610 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 2: You do have this crazy world now where on the 611 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 2: one hand we can be told that renewable energies putting 612 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 2: bills up, and then the other just give the two 613 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 2: examples essentially eliminates them. What we really need to do 614 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 2: is make these technologies more abundant and have the markets 615 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,280 Speaker 2: we talked about earlier so that we can operate them 616 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 2: in the interests of consumers. 617 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 1: If you take a really big step back, there is 618 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 1: something that is happening here in the UK that we 619 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 1: are seeing in many parts of the world tied to 620 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:41,320 Speaker 1: high energy prices, tied to politicians learning from either Donald 621 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: Trump or trying and testing out anti climate policies and 622 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 1: whether somebody would buy them. For a long time, the 623 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 1: conversation among energy people has been about an energy transition 624 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: that we'll move away from the fossil system big we've 625 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: built over one hundred years spend trillions, tens of trillions 626 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: dollars to another system that's going to be clean, will 627 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: require tens of trillions of dollars in investment. But it's 628 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: also a moment where there is a trade war, there 629 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,800 Speaker 1: are real wars, the norms of diplomacy are are being 630 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: blown apart. More leaders are talking about a rupture in 631 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 1: just the fabric of how things used to operate. But 632 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: the conversation and energy is still about the transition. If 633 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 1: you had to imagine a rupture in the energy world, 634 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 1: what would that look like. 635 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I think just one quick word 636 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 2: on the transition. The reality in the West is that 637 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 2: twenty percent of our primary energy use is electricity and 638 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 2: eighty percent is fossil fuels. China has gone from ten 639 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 2: percent electricity to more than a third and growing in 640 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 2: the last twenty years. In the last twenty years, right, 641 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 2: and that's why chime is often now described increasing as 642 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 2: an electro state. And the focus we've had in the 643 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 2: West on the transition has all been on the generation side, 644 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 2: moving our electrics generation from coal to renewables, maybe a 645 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 2: bit of gas and nuclear. We haven't focused anywhere near 646 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 2: enough on the consumption side, so electric vehicles, which China 647 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:19,400 Speaker 2: has now really begun to dominate batteries, increasing electric heating 648 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,919 Speaker 2: and HVAC. So I think that electrication of end use 649 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 2: is actually, for example, in capital terms, there will be 650 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 2: six times more expenditure on the capital for end use 651 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 2: than there is on the generation of electricity. So the 652 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 2: reality is we've been focusing on that's quite a small 653 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 2: slice the pie, and we need to change that. In 654 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 2: terms of the rupture, I'm really struck by a conversation 655 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:47,720 Speaker 2: I had with the CEO of DTech company that provide 656 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 2: electricity in Ukraine, and he said, it takes one Russian 657 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 2: missile to take out a gas power station, but it 658 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,760 Speaker 2: will take fifty to take out the equivalent generation capacity 659 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 2: in wind turbines. I asked the Ukrainian member of our 660 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:04,439 Speaker 2: team what we can do to help Ukraine, as you said, 661 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:09,240 Speaker 2: build more wind turbites. The reality is the distributed energy 662 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:15,839 Speaker 2: of wind and solar batteries is naturally more resilient, dramatically 663 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:20,720 Speaker 2: more resilient and secure than being dependent on the flow 664 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 2: of gas every single day to keep your lights on, 665 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,800 Speaker 2: empower you're heating, And I think the big rupture here 666 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:34,879 Speaker 2: is emulating the Internet. Prior to the Internet, networks were 667 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 2: built with a sort of a central server and everyone 668 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 2: hung off it. And then the Internet's design criteria from 669 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 2: the US defense sector was to make a network that 670 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 2: couldn't be taken down because it didn't have a central 671 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 2: point of failure. We should think about it electricity the 672 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 2: same way. 673 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,959 Speaker 1: Greg, thank you for joining the show. Thank you very much, indeed, 674 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 1: and thank you for listening to zero. And now for 675 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:11,359 Speaker 1: the sound of the week. That's the soundtrack to Octonauts, 676 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,319 Speaker 1: a British cartoon that's pretty fun and not just for 677 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: the kids. If you liked this episode, please take a 678 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts 679 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: and Spotify. Share this episode with a friend or with 680 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 1: someone who celebrated the end of British goal. This episode 681 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 1: was produced by Oscar Boyd and Somersadi. Our theme music 682 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 1: is composed by Wonderly Special Thanks to Will Mathis, Eleanor 683 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 1: Harrison Dungate, Moses Andim Laura Milan and Sharon chen i'm 684 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 1: Akshatrati back soon.