1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And it's Saturday, 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: which means we're going on down into the old vault 4 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: to pull out a classic episode of the show for you. 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 1: This one is from last year. This one is from 6 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: March thirty first, twenty twenty two, and it is the 7 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: Three Pupil Die Part two. This is the follow up 8 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: to the episode that aired last Saturday about about strange 9 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: pupils and irises in myth, legend and reality. Welcome to 10 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, 11 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is 12 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. In our last episode, 13 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: we discussed a common but enthralling literary motif in Irish mythology, 14 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: the triple and the sevenfold eye, three or seven pupils, 15 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: three or seven irises found in the eyes of beautiful heroes, 16 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: divine seers, destructive monsters. We also discussed the structure and 17 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: functionality of the human eye and the rare instances in 18 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: which we actually see double pupils in human eyes. In 19 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to explore more curious eyes from 20 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: the natural world, as well as more accounts of marvelous 21 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: eyes from ancient history and literature. But first a pop 22 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: culture update. At the end of last episode we were talking, 23 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: I spoke briefly about some double eyes that I remembered 24 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: from some movies, album covers, etc. Well, our good producer 25 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: Seth provided us with two additional examples of double eyes 26 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: and popular culture that we didn't think of last time. 27 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: Number one, the double irises and pupils of Aminet in 28 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: twenty seventeens. The Mummy. This is the Tom Cruise Mummy film. 29 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: Oh boy, did not see it, but I think this 30 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: is like the the titular Mummy, or at least one 31 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: of them. I think she is the Mummy in this film. 32 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: I'm okay, I haven't seen this one, not even on 33 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: an airplane, but I'm not opposed to it. I mean, 34 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of crummy mummy movies over the years, 35 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: and usually there's something interesting in them. Yeah, at least 36 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: sometimes you get an Arnold Foslou or something. Yeah. And 37 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: then the second example Seth brings up is the album 38 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: cover to Bubba by Haitian Canadian musician k Trenada featuring 39 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: the artist with otherworldly blue eyes that have double pupils, 40 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: double irises. I listened to a track from this album 41 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: while we were working on notes. It was good. I 42 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: haven't had a chance yet, but I do love the 43 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: album cover. It's pretty great now. One of the sources 44 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: that we mentioned in the last episode was the Evil 45 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: Eye in early Irish literature and law. This was published 46 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: in Celtica twenty four back in two thousand and three, 47 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: and this was by Jacqueline Borsch and the author of 48 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,839 Speaker 1: Fergus Kelly is also cited on this paper because there's 49 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: like a part one in a part two, but I 50 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: believe we're we dealt with material from part one. Celtica, 51 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: the journal this is in is a scholarly journal for 52 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: Celtic studies out of the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies. 53 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: So most of this deals of course with Irish law, 54 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: Irish traditions, Irish mythology, and despite the popularity of this 55 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: motif of the multiple pupils, multiple irises within the Irish tradition, 56 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: we also encounter discussions of this sort of thing in 57 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: other traditions as well, and shares a few of these 58 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: The first one comes to us from A Plenty of 59 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: The Elder and the Natural History. Plenty discusses individuals in 60 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: Africa said to possess quote, the power of fascination with 61 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: the eyes and can even kill those on whom they 62 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: fix their gaze for any length of time, more especially 63 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: if their look denotes anger. Now that's you're pretty basic 64 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: evil eye scenario right there. You encounter variations of this 65 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: throughout the world, based on the fact that, yes, you 66 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: can shoot somebody a really terrible look and you can 67 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 1: almost feel it. Of course, going back into the ancient world, 68 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: the belief was often that it was more than you know, 69 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: giving somebody the stink eye produced more than just a 70 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: bad feeling, that it could literally curse them or cause 71 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: them magical harm. Yes. But the neat thing here where 72 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: it ties into what we're talking about in these episodes 73 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: is Plenty goes on to connect this to multiple pupils quote. 74 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: A still more remarkable circumstance is the fact that these 75 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: persons have two pupils in each eye. Apollo Nides says 76 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: that there are certain females of this description in Scythia 77 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: who are known as the Bitha and Philarchus states that 78 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: a tribe of the theebe in Pontus, and many other 79 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: persons as well, have a double pupil in one eye 80 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: and in the other the figure of a horse. Double 81 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: pupil in one eye, the other the figure of a horse. Now, 82 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 1: with passages of this kind, we're often faced with the 83 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: question is this based on some distorted or exaggerated retelling 84 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: of something that somebody actually saw, or is it just 85 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: pure creative imagination or you know, tall tales, And it's 86 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: always interesting to wonder about the former, But ancient accounts 87 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: like Plenties are clearly full of the ladder, especially when 88 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: telling stories about peoples who live in far away parts 89 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: of the globe. You know, this section that we're quoting 90 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: from plenty is from I can't remember what it's called. 91 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: There's like one of his books is all about the 92 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: nations of the world, and it's just all these weird 93 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: stories of like here's a people who live somewhere far away, 94 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: and here's this strange thing they do or something that 95 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: they wear that would be fascinating to my readers. Like 96 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: there's one part where he talks about a tribe of 97 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: people somewhere who do not have heads and instead have 98 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: eyes in their breasts. So it need not be the 99 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:05,359 Speaker 1: case that Plenty is necessarily here repeating a misunderstood or 100 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: exaggerated story about somebody who actually had something like polychoria 101 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 1: or some other unusual condition of the pupils. But of 102 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: course it is always possible. Yeah, it does make you wonder, 103 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: you know, to what extent would there be, like, you know, 104 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 1: some account of an individual with this rare condition, some 105 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,280 Speaker 1: memory of this rare condition, and then it gets folded 106 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: into some of these traditions and beliefs at one point 107 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: or another in their long lives. Yes, though of course 108 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: it could again just be something somebody made up, like 109 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: the people who don't have heads and have eyes in 110 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 1: their breasts, right right, Like, we can dream up individuals 111 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: with like four arms, and it's pretty interesting and we 112 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 1: can draw all sorts of meaning from that, but it 113 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that people with four arms ever actually existed, 114 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: you know, that there's any actual biological basis on which 115 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: that was based. Though. I do think it's really interesting 116 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 1: that he doesn't just say, Okay, they've got two pupils 117 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: in each eye, but that they've got two pupils in 118 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 1: one eye and in the other eye a horse. Yeah, 119 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,799 Speaker 1: And like the first place my mind went was, Okay, 120 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: is it actually shaped like a horse a distortion that 121 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: is roughly horse shaped? Or is it? Does it mean 122 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: that this is like some sort of telephone game, you know, 123 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: translation game version of a horizontal pupil like one finds 124 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: in the eyeble horse. That's interesting, and that'll tie into 125 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: a scientific paper we're going to talk about in a bit. 126 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: I found an editor's footnote in the Bostock translation of Plenty, 127 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: which notes, quote, some of the commentators have supposed that 128 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: Plenty or Phi larcis from whom he borrows, because remember, 129 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: this isn't an original observation of Plenties, He's like copying 130 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: this from some other writing of this person named phi Larcus, 131 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: but Philarcus from whom he borrows. Whether they were misled 132 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: by the ambiguity of the Greek term eCos, which signifies 133 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: either a horse or a tremulous motion of the eye. 134 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: But even admitting this to be the case, the wonder 135 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: is scarcely diminished, for we have the double pupil in 136 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: one eye, while this supposed tremulous motion is confined to 137 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: the other. So so if Fostuck is correct there, it's 138 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: that this word had had a double meaning, and one 139 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: of them was like a you know, a quivering of 140 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: the eye. I guess I would assume that's like when 141 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: somebody's eye is twitching. But yeah, you wonder, well, why 142 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: why is it just that the other eye is twitching 143 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: when when the first eye has two pupils in it, 144 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: that's also strange, maybe not as strange as a horse. 145 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: I was. I was looking for answers on this as well, 146 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: and I ran across a nineteen eighteen paper titled of 147 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: the Papula duplex and Other Tokens of an Evil Eye 148 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: in the Light of Ophthalmology by Walton Brooks McDaniel, And 149 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: according to Brooks, here one doctor Kirby Flower Smith, a 150 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: professor of Latin and at John Hopkins University, who had 151 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: I looked VI had died in nineteen eighteen, interpreted the 152 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: Plenty passage as having some sort of connection to the 153 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: idea that the affliction of the eye was caused by 154 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: quote a horse shaped demon, horsehead masked demon. Yeah. McDaniel 155 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: also begins to discuss the the idea that if you know, 156 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: if you look into another eye, you know certainly with 157 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: the right lighting and so forth, you look into another 158 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: person's eye, you can see your own reflection. And so 159 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: McDaniel mentions that in some traditions that individual you see 160 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: in the eye is interpreted, you know, not as yourself, 161 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: but as the signifier of the soul, and that there 162 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: are even some traditions where if the individual looks in 163 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: some way inverted, that is because of witchcraft. And in 164 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: this this this is one of those weird situations where 165 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: then McDaniel mentioned something else that leads me back to 166 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: a source that I'm very familiar with, and yet I 167 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: totally blinked on this particular detail, or or maybe I'd 168 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: never read this one particular tale, but he ends up 169 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: referring back to Strange Tales from a Chinese Studio by 170 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: Poosh song Ling. That's a show, favorite, folks. Should we 171 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: do we have a Strange Sales from a Chinese studio? Buzzer? 172 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: I doubt we do, but at any rate, it's it's 173 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: it's a book that I really enjoy. This is a 174 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: Ching Dynasty collection of stories that Pous song Ling collected 175 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: and retells, and you know there's a lot that's that's 176 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: lost in translation. Out of Mandarin. But but there's still 177 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: remarkable fun, sometimes funny, and sometimes it's just very strange. Uh. 178 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's it's you know, it's all about what they 179 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: would have meant to the people who read them. But 180 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: they're a lot of fun. There's a Penguin edition of 181 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: it translation that I've I read again and again over 182 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: the years, and yet I completely blanked on this one story. 183 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:51,079 Speaker 1: It's called Talking Pupils. I think maybe the reason that 184 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: I haven't read this one recently is sometimes i'll read 185 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: these to my son and I'll sort of glance at them, 186 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: and if it looks like there's something that might be 187 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: scandalous in it, or you know, a little dirty, then 188 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: I'll skip over the tale. There aren't many, but occasionally 189 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: there's one like that. So anyway, this story Talking Pupils 190 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: concerns the tale of one Feng Dong quote, a gentleman 191 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 1: of considerable accomplishments while at the same time having a 192 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: reputation as an unprincipled libertine. Oh yeah, so clearly that's 193 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: why I might have skipped over this in recent years. Anyway, 194 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: So Fang was this is how the story goes. Fang 195 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: is strolling the countryside and he happens on a fine 196 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: carriage on the road. One of the female attendants to 197 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: the carriage is quite fetching, so he moves in for 198 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: a closer look. But as he does so, he's able 199 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: to peek between the curtains of the carriage itself and 200 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,719 Speaker 1: he sees a beautiful young woman within, and he's captivated. 201 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: The female attendant is having none of this, though, and 202 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: she verbally shames him, you know, calls him a you know, 203 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: a weirdo and a snooper. And not only does she 204 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 1: verbally shame him, she reaches down grabs him dust out 205 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,199 Speaker 1: of the road and throws it in Fang's face. Oh, 206 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: dirty fighter. Yeah, but you know, he had it coming. 207 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: He was up to no good and he gets punished 208 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: for it. So he's he's initially he's trying to get 209 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,839 Speaker 1: the dust out of his eyes. The carriage carries on. 210 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: When he is able to see again, you know, struggling, 211 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: the carriage is completely done. It's you know, it's vanished 212 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: around the bend or whatever. So he has heads on home, 213 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: but his eyes continue to bother him, so he seeks 214 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: some help. A friend looks into his eyes, and this 215 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: friend says, yeah, there's a visible film over each of 216 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 1: your eyeballs, and meanwhile, tears won't stop flowing. In time, 217 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: the film thickens and a spiral what is described as 218 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: a spiral shaped protuberance begins growing from his right eye, 219 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 1: resisting all manner of treatment. Eventually he's completely blind, and 220 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 1: you know he's he's distraught over this. But he hears 221 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: about a Buddhist sutra known as the Sutra of Light, 222 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: and it's said to be able to heal eye ailments 223 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: or ailments of this sort. So he gets a side 224 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 1: friend to read it to him, and he learns it 225 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: by heart, and he recites it over and over again, 226 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: and after a while it gives him solace. You know, 227 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: he feels a little better. His side is not back. 228 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: But then one day he begins to hear voices, two voices, 229 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: one from each of his eyeballs. Oh, I love this. 230 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: The eyeballs are talking, both of them. Well, as it 231 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: turns out, not the eyeballs but things within the eyeballs. 232 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 1: There's one voice within each eyeball, and they start talking 233 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: to each other, and they're talking about how dark it 234 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: is in their homes and how they'd really like to 235 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: just get outside and go for a stroll. And then 236 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 1: so pusong Ling says quote, then he felt a slight 237 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,719 Speaker 1: irritation in both nostrils, as if two little creatures were 238 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: wriggling down his nose. After a while, he felt the 239 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,479 Speaker 1: creatures return and make their way back up his nostrils 240 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: and into the eye sockets. Again, this is anatomically correct because, 241 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: as we know, the tear ducks that drain tears away 242 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: from the eyes drain into the nasal cavity, which is 243 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: why your nose when you cry. Oh very good. So 244 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: what does Feing do at this point, Well, he gets 245 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: his wife to take him to the old garden, and 246 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: he has her observe him in the garden to see 247 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: if anything like this happens again. Maybe the garden will 248 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: coax whatever it is out of his eyeballs. And this 249 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: is what happens. Quote. It was not long before she 250 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: saw two little mannekins, neither of them any larger than 251 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: a bean, emerged from his nose and fly buzzing out 252 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: of the door. They were soon well out of sight, 253 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: but we're back again in next to no time, flying 254 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: together up onto his face and in at his nostrils. 255 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: Like a pair of homing bees or ants. So is 256 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: he getting relief when they fly away? I don't think so. No. Oh, 257 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: it's just it happens, and he doesn't know what this 258 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: is about, so it keeps happening. It happens again each 259 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: day for three days, and finally one of the voices 260 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: complains that the tunnel that they're using to get out 261 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: of the eyeball is a bit round about and there's 262 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: got to be a better way. It's time that they 263 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: make some sort of proper doorway. So I'm going to 264 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: read the rest of this year that it really gets 265 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: to the juicy part. I'm just I'm filled with dread. 266 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: It's not a good idea when the tenants in your 267 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: eyeballs decided to start renovating on their own. Yeah, so 268 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: that is how it goes. The wall on my side 269 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: is very thick, replied the right eye. It won't be easy. 270 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: I'll try to make an opening on my side, said 271 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: the left eye. Then we can share my door. Presently, 272 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: Fang thought he felt a scratching and a splitting in 273 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: his left eye socket, and an instant later he could 274 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: see he could see everything around him with absolute clarity. 275 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: Beside himself with a delight. He promptly informed his wife, 276 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: who inspected his eyes afresh and found that in the 277 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: left eye a minute aperture had appeared in the film, 278 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: a hole no larger than a cracked peppercorn, through which 279 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: gleamed the black globe of a pupil. By the next morning, 280 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: the film in the left eye had disappeared altogether. But 281 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: the strangest thing of all was that, on careful inspection, 282 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: there were now two pupils visible in that eye, and 283 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: the right eye was still obscured by its spiral shaped growth. Apparently, 284 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: both of the two eye mannequins his talking pupils had 285 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: now taken up residence in the left eye. So although 286 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: Fang was still blind in one eye, he could see 287 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: better with his one good eye than he had ever 288 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: done with two. From that day fourth, he was a 289 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: great deal more circumspect in his behavior and acquired unimpeccable 290 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: reputation in the district. Okay, so no more creeping on 291 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: ladies and carriages. Right, he learned his lesson, He was 292 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: punished for his creepy behavior, and now he's back and 293 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: ready to be a good citizen with one eye that 294 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: can see better than two, right, because two pupils. Now 295 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: that this again is from the Penguin Classics edition. It's 296 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: a John Minford translation, and this was super interesting as well. 297 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: Minford shares this in the notes pupils. The traditional Chinese 298 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: expression for pupil, tong wren, means literally man in the 299 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: pupil from the reflection of oneself that one sees in 300 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: the eye of another. Wow. Yeah, that was that was 301 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: really that. I was really impressed by that. And I 302 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: was talking to my wife about it because I was 303 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: looking around a little bit after this and I saw 304 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 1: an article about photography and about being able to zoom 305 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: in on the eye of an individual in a modern 306 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: photograph and see the reflection potentially of the photographer and 307 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: oh yeah, because of the high resolution, I guess, yeah, yeah. 308 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: And I was asking my wife about this, and she 309 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: pointed out that one thing that photographers can do is 310 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: you can pull up, say a headshot that another photographer 311 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: is done. You can zoom in on the eye and 312 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: you can see what their lighting setup is. So I 313 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 1: was impressed by that as well. Oh, I'm impressed. That's 314 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: a real James Bond level trick. I do not know 315 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: what to make of the spiral growth though I looked 316 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: around briefly on that and I was not able to 317 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: find any answers that seemed fencing. I have no expertise 318 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: on spiral growths from eyes. All right, I want to 319 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,479 Speaker 1: go back to Borsch for just a minute here, because 320 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: she has a couple of other examples that she brings up. 321 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 1: One apparently tolomeos Chinos. This would have been a figure 322 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: from the late first early second century. CE once described 323 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: a beautiful woman as being quote with a double pupil. Okay, 324 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,360 Speaker 1: And in the last episode we talked about some legends 325 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: in which a character with multiple pupils this was assumed 326 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 1: to be a marker of beauty. Right, So this is 327 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 1: interesting because it seems to suggest that this is not 328 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: just isolated within Irish literary traditions, that perhaps somewhere else 329 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: in the world there was this idea that double pupil 330 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: equals beauty. And I mean, who am I to say 331 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 1: it's not beautiful? You know, it's not like you look 332 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:01,360 Speaker 1: at images of actual double pupil situations and you're not 333 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: hortified by them or anything, no more so than if 334 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: you look at a super close up of any human 335 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: Eyeball also mentions that ovid portrays a woman with double 336 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: pupils having the evil eye at one point, so tying 337 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: back into the evil eye tradition. But anyway, Bors concludes 338 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: quote to conclude this section, Both angry eyes and eyes 339 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: with multiple pupils have been connected with the concept of 340 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: the evil eye, there is no strict identity between the phenomena. 341 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: Multiple pupils can also be a sign of beauty, sharp sight, 342 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 1: and clairvoyance. Okay, so we're not really converging on a 343 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: unity of theme here. If you're in an Irish legend 344 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: or myth and you have a character with multiple pupils 345 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: in one eye, it seems they could either be somebody 346 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: who has a lot of insight, somebody who can see 347 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 1: very far away, somebody who can see the future, somebody 348 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: who is beautiful, or somebody who is monstrous or can 349 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: do curses. And there is this idea too that it's 350 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: it's part of like the supernatural body, that when you 351 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: have some sort of a demigod figure, it's the human body. 352 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: It's almost like it mutates with the divinity within it 353 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: like the human The normal human body cannot contain this 354 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: level of power and therefore, extra things are going to happen, 355 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: you know, extra pupils, extra fingers, that sort of thing. 356 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: And this ties directly into another example I found, and 357 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 1: this one comes from Chinese traditions as well. This is 358 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: from the nineteen sixty seven book Chinese Civilization and Bureaucracy, 359 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: Variations on a Theme by Hungarian born French senologist Eten 360 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: Balahs working with working from another source as well, Essay 361 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: on the Extinction of the Soul by Faun Shin, a 362 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 1: Chinese philosopher and writer who lived four fifty through five 363 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 1: fifteen CE. The subject here, as far as eyes are concerned, 364 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: is one of the legendary sage rulers of antiquity in China. 365 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: This would concern a time during the third millennium BC. 366 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: And so the structure of this paper seems to concern 367 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 1: like questions and answers. And so first we have this question. 368 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 1: The body of the sage is similar to the body 369 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 1: of ordinary men. Yet there is a difference by which 370 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: the sage is distinguished from ordinary men. From this, it 371 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: can be inferred that body and soul are different. Answer 372 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: not at all. Pure gold glitters and unwashed gold does 373 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: not pure gold. That glitters surely cannot be made of 374 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: the same unglittering material as that of unwashed gold. How 375 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 1: much less, then, can the soul of a sage be 376 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: lodged in a vessel such as the ordinary man. Nor 377 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: would it be possible for the soul of an ordinary 378 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: man to dwell in the body of a sage. Therefore, 379 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 1: fengg Sum is depicted as having eyebrows of eight colors, 380 00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: and zong Huo's eyes with double pupils, signon as having 381 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: the face of a dragon, and tie how the mouth 382 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: of a horse, all of which are outward bodily signs 383 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 1: of their exceptional nature. All the seven openings were found 384 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: in the heart of pie Con. The gall bladder of 385 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: poe U was as big as a fist, which shows 386 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 1: that their inner organs were unusual. Thus we know that 387 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: certain parts of the bodies of sages are quite out 388 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: of the ordinary, and that sages are not only superior 389 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 1: to ordinary human beings, but also surpass all other creatures 390 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: in bodily form. That's just science. I love this passage 391 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: so much. I mean, I love that it's basically an 392 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: autopsy of supernatural sages, of determining how they're they're but 393 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 1: like you can imagine this scene in a movie. Oh yeah, 394 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 1: this is beautiful, the gall bladder as big as a fist, 395 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: showing that the inner organs are unusual. This is great, 396 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: and you know, and this is this is not a 397 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: totally unique view of the body of the holy person 398 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: or the saint. I mean, you know, there are tons 399 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: of traditions all around the world, including like the idea 400 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 1: that certain types of saints or holy people, because of 401 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: their spiritual nature, their bodies would be found to be say, incorruptible, 402 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: like they don't rot the way most spoties do. Yeah. So, 403 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: but Balais adds some notes on this and points out 404 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: that the legends about the eyebrows of eight colors and 405 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: the eyes with double pupils He's come from Mahan times 406 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: and are contained in a number of different works. So 407 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 1: yet another example of of of exceptional eyes in the 408 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 1: bodies of exceptional you know, heroic mythic individuals. Now, in 409 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 1: the last episode, we talked a bit about human eye 410 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: anatomy and some medical literature on polychoria, or the condition 411 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: of having multiple pupils within the same eye. But I 412 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: thought in this episode it would be a good idea 413 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 1: to turn to pupils of the animal kingdom more broadly, 414 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: because there's a lot we can learn about the function 415 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: of pupils by looking at the pupils of non human animals. 416 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: That's right. I mean, just consider the vast diversity we 417 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 1: have in the animal world, and I mean even just 418 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: dealing with the vertebrate world, it's pretty remarkable, not even 419 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 1: getting into compound eyes of flies and so forth. But 420 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: consider humans. We have round pupils. House cats have vertical slits, 421 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 1: Tigers have round pupils, Goats and horses horizontal. Dolphins have crescents, 422 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: cuttlefish have w shaped pupils, some frogs have heart shaped pupils, 423 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: and geckos have these sort of what looked like pinholes 424 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,360 Speaker 1: arranged in a vertical line. I always love a good 425 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 1: crocodile pupil. Oh, yes, tend to be rather vertical. Yeah, 426 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: it's and it's also it's a window into the crocodile soul. 427 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: But seeing all this different diversity does raise some questions 428 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: because you think, okay, well, you know, the bodies of 429 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: animals are shaped by their environment. You know, that's what 430 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: evolution does. It tends to give you the equipment that 431 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 1: best helps you do whatever you need to do within 432 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: your ecological niche. So why do different animals have different pupils? 433 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: How to differently shaped or sized pupils help an animal 434 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: adapt to how it's supposed to survive in the world. Yeah. 435 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: According to Martin Banks, the vision scientist at the University 436 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: of California that cited in a twenty fifteen NPR story, 437 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: eye shapes of the animal world hint at differences in 438 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: our lifestyles. Land animals of sufficient height tend to have 439 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: round pupils. Thus you have big cats that have round pupils. 440 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: Meanwhile your small house cat cat has vertical pupils. Verticals 441 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 1: are more the domain, it seems, of smaller ambush predators, 442 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:48,120 Speaker 1: giving them an excellent ability at judging distances, of which, 443 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: of course, is going to be super important when you're 444 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: pouncing out of the shadows and trying to capture like 445 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 1: a small rodent or your owner's foot. Horizontal pupils, on 446 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: the other hand, are widely under stood as a means 447 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: of keeping a wider swath of the surroundings in sight 448 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: while you're grazing, and an expanded field of view. So 449 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: you can think of this as the panoramic potential prey 450 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 1: view of the world, right, So I was actually looking 451 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: into this. The paper that Banks is connected with is 452 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 1: one that was published in twenty fifteen in Science Advances, 453 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 1: and it's by Martin Banks, William Sprague, urg And Schmall, 454 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: Jared Parnell, and Gordon Love and it's called why do 455 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: animal eyes have pupils of different shapes? And what you 456 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: say is correct. They looked into this question and they found, yeah, 457 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: there are some very strong correlations between how an animal 458 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 1: survives and what shape its pupils are, at least among 459 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: land vertebrates. And so you tend to have, like you're saying, 460 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: horizontal pupils if you are a herbivore, whereas ambush predators 461 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: predators that sit around and wait for their prey, they 462 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 1: tend to have vertical slits, especially if they're active of 463 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: it in both daytime and nighttime. And meanwhile, active predators, 464 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 1: predators that hunt and chase down their prey instead of 465 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,679 Speaker 1: sitting and waiting, they are more likely to have round 466 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: or circular pupils. And this is not a coincidence. The 467 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 1: author has found some pretty good reasons why the pupils 468 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 1: would be allotted in these ways. So first of all, 469 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: you would have to wonder how does it work this 470 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: lay way, Like why would vertical pupils be useful if 471 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: you are an ambush predator, especially as you were saying, 472 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 1: an ambush predator of low height, because height matters. So 473 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,120 Speaker 1: if you're an active predator chasing down prey, you likely 474 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 1: have round pupils, or if you're an ambush predator that 475 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: is taller, you probably have round pupils vertical slits of 476 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: what you're really likely to see if you're a sit 477 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,399 Speaker 1: and wait, jump out predator and you're close to the ground. 478 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 1: So I want to read a section from this paper, 479 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: and there's a couple bits of terminology. To understand the 480 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: quote I'm about to read, it'll use the term stereopsis. 481 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: Stereopsis is depth perception that is created by comparing the 482 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 1: difference between what is seen by two different eyes focusing 483 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: on the same image. So we use stereopsis to judge 484 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 1: depth when we look at an image by the brain says, okay, 485 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: we've got two different data points of the eyes, and 486 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: it compares them together and gives you this three D 487 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: image with depth. But then the other term is defocus blur, 488 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 1: This refers to the blurriness and objects that are either 489 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: close or farther away, closer or farther away than you're focusing. 490 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: So the authors of this paper right quote, vertically elongated 491 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: pupils create astigmatic depth of field, such that images of 492 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: vertical contours nearer or farther than the distance to which 493 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: the eyes focused are sharp, whereas images of horizontal contours 494 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: at different distances are blurred. This is advantageous for ambush 495 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: predators to use stereopsis to estimate distance says of vertical contours, 496 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: and defocus blur to estimate distances of horizontal contours. So 497 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: rob if you'll scroll down a bit in the notes here, 498 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: I attached a picture that they put in the paper 499 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: to simulate what it looks like to a creature that's 500 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: gazing out at the world with vertical slit pupils, and 501 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: it's a very interesting So they've got a picture with 502 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: a toy bird sitting on the ground, presumably a foot 503 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: or two ahead of where the camera is positioned, and 504 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: then there's some objects in the foreground in in the background, 505 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: and what you'll notice about this picture is that the 506 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: bird is very much in tight focus, but then for 507 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: objects around it there is there is an uneven amount 508 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,479 Speaker 1: of blurriness in the vertical and horizontal directions. So like 509 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: there's a plant stalk that's poking right up in the 510 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: foreground and its shape is fairly in focus when you're 511 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: looking at it height wise, you know, like the stalk 512 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: is sort of sort of blurry but sort of in focus. 513 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: But things in the horizontal direction, like the top of 514 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: the pot that the plant is sitting in, are very blurry. 515 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: And apparently it allows these animals to use both the stereopsis, 516 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: the comparing the two different eyes if the animal has 517 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: two front facing eyes, and the way that images are 518 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: blurred when they're at different levels of distance from the 519 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: object in focus to judge depth very well. So you 520 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: can really nail that bird when you jump. So sorry 521 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: if that was a little complicated, but it took me 522 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: while to understand. I was trying to figure out, like 523 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: why the vertical slits actually help with the hunting. But yeah, 524 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: I think it makes sense if you especially if you 525 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: look up the picture, you can say like, oh, okay, 526 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: this is yeah, this is for an animal that is 527 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: precisely trying to target a jump at something. Yeah, and 528 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: you've got one shot pulling it off. But there was 529 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: another thing noted in this pain that I thought was 530 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: really interesting, and this was actually just in the introduction, 531 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: but it was about advantages of slit shaped pupils over 532 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: round ones in general. So we were just talking about 533 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: vertical pupils for a load of the ground ambush predators. 534 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: But slit pupils in general can be advantageous because they 535 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: allow for much greater changes in the area of the 536 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 1: pupil and thus greater variation in the light conditions they 537 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: can adapt to. So you've got a human pupil. To 538 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: constrict a round human pupil like ours, you need that 539 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: ring shaped sphincter muscle that we talked about at length 540 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: in the last episode. But to close a slit pupil, 541 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: it uses two muscles that close the sides of the 542 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: slit together. And as a result of these morphological differences, 543 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: there is a different amount that you can increase or 544 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: decrease the area of the pupil and the amount of 545 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: light that it can pull in. So, to read from 546 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: the paper quote, the vertical at pupils of the domestic 547 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:05,479 Speaker 1: cat and gecko undergo area changes of one hundred and 548 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: thirty five and three hundredfold, respectively, whereas human circular pupil 549 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: changes by about fifteenfold. Yeah, species that are active in 550 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: night and day need to dilate sufficiently under dim conditions 551 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: while constricting enough to prevent dazzle in daylight. So a 552 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: slit pupil provides the required dynamic range. So this is 553 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: why a slit pupil is good. It's great for high 554 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: dynamic range for an eye that works great in both 555 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: bright daylight and in pitch dark. And you know, I 556 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: can't help but think with smaller predators as well. I mean, 557 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: these are generally going to be creatures that are not 558 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: only predator but prey as well. So it's not like 559 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,959 Speaker 1: they can just hold up, you know, all day. I mean, 560 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:51,719 Speaker 1: they may try to hold up all day, but they 561 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: might need to play the survival game during daylight as well, 562 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: assuming they're not actively hunting during the day as well 563 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: of course, right right, So, yes, a slit pupil is 564 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: great for being highly adaptable to whatever the light situation is, 565 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: But the directional orientation of the slit depends more on 566 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: your ecological niche like you were talking about earlier. So again, yeah, 567 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: the grazing herbivores, like horses, they will have horizontal slits 568 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: to help them keep a panoramic view of the environment 569 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: and watch for movement or predators approaching. But another interesting 570 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: finding of the authors here, these pupil orientations for herbivores 571 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: only work if the animal keeps the pupil parallel to 572 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: the horizon, and grazing herbivores actually spend much of their 573 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: time with their heads bent down to the ground eating grass. 574 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: So what gives there? Well, the researchers looked into this 575 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: and they found that, in fact, when horses bind down 576 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: to graze, they rotate their eyes within the sockets to 577 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: keep the pupils parallel to the horizon. And Martin Banks 578 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: in that NPR article he gives a quote pointing out 579 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: that this is weird because the eyes have to rotate 580 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: in opposite directions, you know, think about the eyes on 581 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: opposite side. So yeah, and apparently they couldn't find any 582 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: references to anybody ever writing about this before, which is 583 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:14,320 Speaker 1: funny given how much time people spend around horses. But yeah, 584 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: so that's what horses do when they've been down to 585 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: the grass. Their eyes swivel in the sockets to maintain 586 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: the pupil slit as parallel to the horizon. Wow, this 587 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: is another one of the I don't know, we've we've 588 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: talked about this before, and you know, imagining alien life 589 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: forms and so forth, but also getting into just ideas 590 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 1: of consciousness, like how much of our our understanding of 591 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 1: ourselves in the world seems to come down to how 592 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: we view the world and how we focus attention um 593 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,280 Speaker 1: and yet to try and put yourself in the mindset 594 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 1: of a mind that is that perceives the world in 595 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 1: this manner that you know, that that has eyes that 596 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: are always focused on the horizon in order to get 597 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: this panoramic view of all the potential threats that could 598 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 1: be interfered with they're feeding one lass. Funny note that 599 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: was in that NPR coverage of this paper was about 600 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 1: depictions of dinosaurs in Jurassic World and other movies. So 601 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,800 Speaker 1: you know, you've got this some kind of giga predator dinosaur. 602 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 1: It's just like the ultimate what do they call it 603 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 1: in Jurassic World. It was like the Killer Rex or 604 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 1: so this is the this is the Hannibal electro one, Yeah, 605 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 1: Kilamus maximus, yeah, something like that. Yeah. Well, they talk 606 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:31,240 Speaker 1: about the temptation to depict predators like this with vertical 607 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: slits for eyes, because I think we correctly detect that 608 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: as a predatory trait. You look at a crocodile's eyes, 609 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,879 Speaker 1: it's got these creepy vertical slits, and that makes sense 610 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: because a crocodile is an ambush predator that operates low 611 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: to the ground. But they say, actually this, you know, 612 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:51,839 Speaker 1: the Kilamus maximus dinosaur is an active predator and it's 613 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: very tall, so it would probably have round pupils like ours. 614 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 1: And the funny thing is, you can't even use the 615 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: frog excuse, like oftentimes that is used to excuse sort 616 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 1: of stuck in the mud depictions of dinosaurs in the 617 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: Durassic Park Traffic Jurassic World movies. They'll say, well, you 618 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: have to remember they also used frog DNA, So the 619 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: fact that they don't have feathers that has to do 620 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 1: with the frog DNA. But it was the frog DNA, 621 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,360 Speaker 1: then perhaps they would all have heart shaped pupils depending 622 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: on the type of frogs that were used. Right, Yeah, 623 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: And that brings us back to the next thing, which is, 624 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 1: so we were talking about the orientations of slit shaped 625 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: pupils versus round pupils in terrestrial vertebrates. But when you 626 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 1: start looking at the eyes there are the pupils of 627 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,719 Speaker 1: animals that live in the water. You starts even weirder 628 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 1: shapes in dolphins and cuttlefish and all kinds of things 629 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: have these strangely shaped pupils. Yeah. The cuttlefish pupil especially 630 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 1: is very fascinating to look at. Definitely look up a 631 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,399 Speaker 1: picture of it if you're not picturing it right now. 632 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: It looks like this WAVYW. It looks kind of like, 633 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: you know, the face on the Pringles can. Is that 634 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,359 Speaker 1: mister Pringles, Doctor Pringles, I can't remember, doctor Pringles. Man, 635 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:08,959 Speaker 1: which is that Governor Pringles? Governor Pringles, yes, Senator Pringles, Yes, 636 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: we have Walter K. Pringles. He has a mustache and 637 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: um under under certain light conditions, the cuttlefish eye looks 638 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,319 Speaker 1: like that mustache in my opinion. But the interesting thing 639 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:22,719 Speaker 1: is that, yes it has the cuttlefish ye has this 640 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: signature W shape in bright light, but it's actually circular 641 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:31,840 Speaker 1: in low light. According to the W shaped pupil in 642 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,360 Speaker 1: cuttlefish by a math ger at All, published in Vision 643 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: Research in twenty thirteen. The two main theories um were 644 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: that the shape is either for camouflage, so it's just 645 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: it has a weird pupil because it's doing all sorts 646 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: of strange things with its chromatic force to you know, 647 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: to change its its appearance and therefore it has you know, 648 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 1: strange things going on as high as well, or that 649 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: it has to do with distance calculations. It's coming down 650 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: to some of the same factors that we just discussed 651 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 1: in terms of vertical and horizontal pupils. But in this case, 652 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: the researchers proposed that the w shaped pupil might aid 653 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: in balancing out the vertically uneven light field of its 654 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 1: natural habitat m Okay, So here's a quote from from 655 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,359 Speaker 1: that paper. Quote. While an animal's retina can deal with 656 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,879 Speaker 1: a wide range of light intensities in one scene, reducing 657 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: this range would limit the need for rapid local adaptation 658 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 1: during vertical gaze shifts. Since cuttlefish do not have an 659 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 1: instant three sixty field of view, they must rely on 660 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: gaze shifts to provide them with the complete view of 661 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: the surrounding world. Okay, so they have to move their 662 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: eyes to look around them, right, and you know, in 663 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,360 Speaker 1: this we have to think about light in the aquatic world, 664 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 1: you know, where you know, the ever present darkness of 665 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 1: the depths and then the periodic light field a realm 666 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: of the upper depth. And if you're something like cuttlefish, 667 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 1: you're having to navigate both. And it kind of comes 668 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 1: down to some of the ideas we're discussing with with 669 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 1: with load of the ground predators. You know, you have 670 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 1: to sort of be adaptable to both realms, but in 671 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,280 Speaker 1: this case you need to be able to to simultaneously 672 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:25,399 Speaker 1: deal with the light in the darkness. By the way, 673 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 1: coming out of the water for a second, the gecko 674 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,280 Speaker 1: pupil I was reading about essentially as a vertical pupil 675 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 1: aiding in a nocturnal ambush predator's lifestyle. But it does 676 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: look really cool and they are apparently really incredible hunting 677 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: eyes according to some of the articles that I looked at. 678 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: But then, oh, another aquatic eye of note is the 679 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: dolphin pupil, and it's it's interesting that while it resembles 680 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 1: a horseshoe or crescent, when it's fully dilated, it constricts 681 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: down to two tiny openings that are sometimes referred to 682 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: as a double bowl. Pupil um, and this apparently comes 683 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:05,839 Speaker 1: down to the fact that the eye the pupil shape 684 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: who with dolphins has to do with dolphins or noted 685 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: for having exceptional vision both in and out of the water. 686 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: They know, they're they're they're they're able to to position 687 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: their bodies so that they're gazing out of the water, 688 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,720 Speaker 1: and they have great vision in that circumstance as well. 689 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 1: But I included a photograph here for you, Joe, and 690 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 1: I encourage listeners to look this up as well. Um. 691 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 1: The first picture shows the horseshoe pupil, and then the 692 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: second picture shows the double pupil when everything's fully constricted. Yeah, 693 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 1: it does look amazing though, if you do look up 694 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 1: scientific diagrams of the eye. I think what these are 695 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 1: explaining that's normally happening is like that the the sort 696 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 1: of horseshoe or or U shaped pupil when it constricts, 697 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,160 Speaker 1: what it actually constricts down to is something that looks 698 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 1: kind of like two earbuds connected by a wire, and 699 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: the wire is just very narrow. Yes. Yes, now some 700 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: of you might be wondering, Okay, you're talking about mythic 701 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 1: figures with strange eyes, and now we've we've talked about 702 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,520 Speaker 1: a number of different real life organisms that have some 703 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 1: sort of interesting eyes going on. Is it possible that 704 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,319 Speaker 1: that that the myth makers and the storytellers of old 705 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 1: were inspired by eyes they saw in nature. And I 706 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 1: didn't really find anybody talking about this, I mean outside 707 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 1: of Yes, if you're watching some sort of modern show 708 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: and reptile people show up and they have vertical slits 709 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: and their eyeballs, yes, obviously somebody decided let's give them 710 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 1: reptile eyes. Um. Though again, if they're reptile people, I mean, 711 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,719 Speaker 1: if they're like, I don't know, five six feet tall 712 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 1: or something, they should probably have round eyes. What if 713 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 1: they crawl around on their bellies all the time that's 714 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 1: how they hunt. Oh oh, okay, then yeah, vertical slits, 715 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,279 Speaker 1: go for it. But I was thinking, Okay, the cuttlefish 716 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:54,359 Speaker 1: has this amazing looking eye. Any possibility there, well, I mean, 717 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,160 Speaker 1: the common or European cuttlefish can be found in Irish waters, 718 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:03,240 Speaker 1: and cuttlefish shells or cuttlefish bones were used as ornaments 719 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 1: by the Celts, according to DJ Conway in the book 720 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:11,840 Speaker 1: Celtic Magic Ireland. However, it's famously light on reptile species, 721 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,040 Speaker 1: So I don't think geckos would have had an impact 722 00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,799 Speaker 1: on any literary motifs. And and ultimately, I don't think 723 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,400 Speaker 1: anybody was pulling up any cuttlefish and checking out their 724 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 1: their eyeballs either or you know, I've I found nothing 725 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 1: to suggest that, but my mind went there, so I 726 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:29,399 Speaker 1: thought i'd mentioned it to everybody. You know, I think 727 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,120 Speaker 1: this show is a safe place to admit research dead ends. 728 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,480 Speaker 1: Sometimes we just got to do that. Yeah, unless there's 729 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 1: a paper out there I'm missing, And if so, as always, 730 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,640 Speaker 1: if there's something we've missed, right in and let us know, 731 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 1: we would love to be corrected. Well, should we tighten 732 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,719 Speaker 1: the sphincter, constrict the pupil on this one, that's right, book, 733 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:49,439 Speaker 1: what's what we should do. We should limit the light 734 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 1: coming in at this point. But we'd love to hear 735 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,279 Speaker 1: from everyone out there. If there are particular mythic figures, 736 00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:02,600 Speaker 1: literary figures, pop culture examples of of multi pupil, multi irist, 737 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,239 Speaker 1: multi lobed eyes, right in and let us know about them, 738 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,680 Speaker 1: Send some pictures if they exist. We would love to 739 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 1: hear from you. Likewise, if there are other you know, 740 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,399 Speaker 1: we really only spend a little bit of time here 741 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,200 Speaker 1: with the animal world. There's so many fascinating animal eyes 742 00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,280 Speaker 1: out there, so if there are examples that you're particularly 743 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,000 Speaker 1: fond of right in, let us know. And then, of 744 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 1: course there are other areas of this that we've just 745 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 1: touched on in these two episodes that we could easily 746 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 1: come back and discuss more about, like oh, the evil 747 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,759 Speaker 1: Eye as we were discussing like that could be its 748 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,319 Speaker 1: own deep dive on the show, no doubt, all right. 749 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:38,960 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you would like to check out 750 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 1: other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, it publishes 751 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,840 Speaker 1: every Tuesday and Thursday, core episodes. In the Stuff to 752 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:50,120 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind podcast feed, we have listener mail episodes 753 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,920 Speaker 1: on Monday, short form Artifact or Monster Fact episodes on Wednesday, 754 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: and on Friday we do Weird House Cinema. That's our 755 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 1: time to set aside most serious concerns and just talk 756 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,600 Speaker 1: about a strange motion picture. Huge thanks as always to 757 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:06,439 Speaker 1: our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would 758 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:08,640 Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us with feedback on 759 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:10,960 Speaker 1: this episode or any other, to suggest a topic for 760 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,320 Speaker 1: the future, or just to say hello, you can email 761 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:24,480 Speaker 1: us at contact at Stuff to Blow Your Mind dot com. 762 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,440 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 763 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:30,319 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 764 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:41,920 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.