WEBVTT - Jake Wagner On the Stand 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.920 The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:09.240 themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters, 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.160 because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.400 He just walked around shot all the black people. The 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.440 cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.160 out how to go on and how to compete. I 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:23.840 wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:28.640 Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.720 or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.800 I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.200 it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:44.560 a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.040 to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:53.239 Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:58.080 this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:00.560 I would call him and I would say, I know 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.480 you killed my sister. You can listen to The Girlfriends 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:07.440 on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:11.880 get your podcasts. LA is expansive. There's nearly ten million 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:14.759 people living here and it comes with a lot of noise, 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:20.720 but if you tune those sounds out and listen close, 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:27.920 you'll hear the real LA. What a Barjim, I'm going 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:31.760 to be your father? You're feeling? This a fiction podcast 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:35.319 mixtape about love. Listen to it on the iHeartRadio app, 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:48.160 Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toxico respond 0:01:48.200 --> 0:02:12.959 experiences Fico in First five California Pultuco Lilly said, well, 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:14.760 you know, if you kill her, you're gonna have to 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:18.480 kill Chris and Frankie because they will know you get 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:22.120 it and they will come after you. Jake testified George 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:24.919 was in a firing position. Jake said he told him 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:29.760 to shoot, but he didn't. Jake takes the rifle from George, 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:32.160 and then when Chris shows up in the doorway, he 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:36.079 shoots him. What really stood out to me, it was 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:39.800 just the way he talked about killing people like it 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:49.320 was no big deal. This is the piked Masacre returned 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:54.920 to Pike County season four, episode eighteen. Jake Wagner on 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:59.520 the stand. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:03.640 studio with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. It's important to 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:06.960 note that George Wagner the Fourth pleaded not guilty to 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:11.119 all charges. His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:15.560 also pleaded not guilty to all charges. At the beginning 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:18.440 of the eighth week of testimony, I traveled to Ohio 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:21.000 to be in the courtroom when jurors heard from the 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:24.120 man who seems to be at the center of this trial, 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:30.600 Jake Wagner. In April of twenty twenty one, on the 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:33.960 five year anniversary of the murders, Jake pled guilty to 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:37.560 eight counts of aggravated murder and agreed to testify against 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:43.560 his own family, including his older brother George. In exchange, 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:47.080 the prosecution removed the death penalty as a possible punishment 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.720 for all. Wagner's judge, Randy Deering, allowed Jick Wagner to 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:54.120 opt out from having his testimony recorded. That's why we 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:58.160 will not hear Jake Wagner's voice in this episode. Still, 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:04.920 his testimony is chilling, dramatic testimony in Pike County Today, 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:08.520 brother versus Brother Today, Jake Wagner took the stand against 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:11.960 George Wagner the Fourth. When Jake Wagner entered the courtroom, 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:15.040 both his hands and feet were shackled with long chain manacles. 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:19.240 He wore thick black glasses and a prison issued tan jumpsuit. 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:23.080 His hair was slicked back and in a ponytail. I 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:25.479 was not surprised to see him in jail clothes. You know, 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:27.960 a lot of the reporters had been speculating that, oh, 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:29.880 maybe they'll put him in street clothes. And I just 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:34.599 thought to myself, I've never seen an inmate testify was 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:38.720 put in street clothes. I mean, the prosecution wanted these 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:42.080 people to be seen at least Jake and Angela as criminals. 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:44.760 Now twenty nine years old, Jake Wagner has been in 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:48.200 the Franklin County jail for nearly four years. The only 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:52.000 noticeable change in his appearance as he looked stronger. He 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:54.719 looked fitter than the thin, gangly man he was before 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:59.520 his arrest. He looks like a different person now you 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:03.400 see as a teenager, suddenly you got a con sitting 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:05.800 there at the big table there in a a courthouse. It's 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:11.159 an understatement to say Jake Wagner's testimony has been highly anticipated. Unsurprisingly, 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:15.040 the courtroom was packed. This is me speaking with Stephanie 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:19.440 from Ohio. Was anybody on the Wagner side that you 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:23.279 could identify, or was it still a total no show 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:28.600 for George. There wasn't a seat to be had completely filled, 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:32.520 including extra seats that were put into the aisles, so 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:34.960 that was just getting in. So it felt unlike any 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:37.120 other day in the trial so far. It was a 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:40.480 real buzz. There appeared to be no one there for 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:44.720 George Wagner. A lot of the people outside of the 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:48.359 media and victims family members were family members of the 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:52.599 attorneys on the prosecution and defense sides. That's interesting because 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:56.240 you never would really think that that's who would come, 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:59.520 but this is their big moment, so for family members 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:03.599 of the lawyer, that does make sense. After Jake took 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.040 the stand, he looked directly at his brother George from 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:09.280 across the room and smiled. For a brief moment. They 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:12.800 made eye contact the first time in years before George 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:16.120 looked away. Here's reporter a Jeanette Levy, who was in 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:19.640 the courtroom. I was sitting right behind George and George 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:22.120 made eye contact with him, but I don't think it 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:25.000 was for very long. Was pretty short lived, and Jake 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:27.960 just kind of, you know, he kept looking around a 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:29.880 little bit like he was very it was almost kind 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.719 of like this alert look. He kept turning his head, 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:37.480 looking back and forth, and you know, then things started. 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:42.080 The questioning started. Prosecutor Angiekaneppa started by asking Jake if 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:45.159 it was difficult to testify against his own family. He 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.160 said it was very difficult. When he was asked, would 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:50.919 you love nothing more for your brother, your mother, and 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:52.600 your father to be able to go home? And he 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:57.080 said yes. The only other emotion Jake appeared to show 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:00.960 that morning was when he mouthed quote, I am sorry, 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:03.880 in the direction of the Roden family sitting in the courtroom. 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:08.280 Then he calmly and with little emotion, walked Jers through 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:12.640 the killings. During more than six hours of detailed testimony, 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:15.600 Jake Wagner explained why he wanted to kill Hannah Rodin, 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:20.800 the mother of his child. With Jake Wagner, what's fascinating 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:24.800 about him is that he's kind of the doorway into 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:29.200 what can be described only as a horror show. It's 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:31.720 not just the night of the home songs, it's everything 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:35.080 waiting up to it's the life but these people led 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:39.600 In the year's proceeding, Jake Wagner detailed how his family's 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:43.400 criminal activity began long before they were arrested for the Roden, 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:49.040 Manly and Gilly murders. Prosecutor and JIW. Kaneppa asked Jake 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:52.720 Wagner about the various homes and vehicles his family owned. 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:57.400 We found out through Jake Wagner's testimony today that he, 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:00.720 his brother, and his father would commit crimes together, including 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:04.600 multiple arsons to collect insurance money and stealing high priced 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:09.040 item from businesses. Jake admitted that his parents set fire 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:11.640 to their own home on Bethelhill Road to collect the 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:15.880 insurance benefits. He also testified that the Wagner's torched multiple 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:19.520 vehicles for the same reason. Jake said they would steal 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:23.720 everything from fuel, to building materials to livestock, also that 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:26.040 he learned to pick a lock at a very young age. 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:29.760 Here again is Law on Crime reporter and Gjeanette Levy. 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:36.040 She's followed by forensic investigator Joseph Scott Morgan. They were 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:39.600 taught these things so that they could get away with crimes, 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:42.800 and not necessarily so they could be like good human beings. 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:45.600 I mean, they were raised to be criminals. It's quite 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:48.520 sad when you listen to them talk about how their 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:50.480 dad would sit them down with like a lock pick 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:53.840 set when they were seven, nine years old something like that, 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:58.120 and teach them how to pick locks, and weird games 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:00.720 about oh, if you were out and about and you 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:04.120 spot a cop, you get a dollar. When you hear 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:08.120 about the way that Jake grew up, where he was 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:13.160 essentially discipled into a life of crime, Billy described it 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:17.840 as he was teaching his boy survival skills, you know, 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:20.880 how to essentially steal a car or hot wire car 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:24.320 in case he ever got quote unquote kidnapped. And I'm thinking, 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:26.920 you know, I don't know if any parent out there 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:30.040 that sits around and thinks, well, let me tell my 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:32.200 child how to steal a car in case they ever 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:35.280 get kidnapped. I wonder. I wonder where all changes in 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:37.880 tire rotations came in, you know, did you at least 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:40.240 talk about that first, you know, And he's saying this, 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:42.800 he's saving this from the stand, and you're really getting 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:47.040 a peek behind the curtain at this life that they led. 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:53.079 Jake told the courtroom his relationship with Hannah ma Rodin 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:56.440 began when she was just thirteen years old. He said 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:58.920 he met Hannah at the Pike County Fair, where she 0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:02.240 was showing off her p rabbits. Despite being four years 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:05.559 older than Hannah, Jake asked her parents, Dana and Chris Rodin, 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:09.880 if he could date her. At times their relationship was violent. 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:13.560 Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa asked Jake if he ever choked his 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:18.320 young girlfriend, as Hannah May had once claimed, and he said, 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:21.080 I never choked her, and he was very like adamant 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:24.280 about it, and he said, she was having a fit, 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:28.080 and you know, I held her up against the wall 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:31.600 and I put my arm on her collar bone, but 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:34.240 I didn't choke her. I just held her there until 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:37.800 she calmed down. And after he gave that answer, he 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:40.760 kind of, like Angie Kaneppa kind of made a sighing noise, 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:44.079 but it was just like he was talking about this like, oh, 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:47.120 I didn't choke her. I was just you know, holding 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:51.280 her there. It was like this minimization or justification or 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:56.560 rationalization for basically holding your ex girlfriend against a wall 0:10:56.600 --> 0:11:00.160 because she was upset about something. And you know he's 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:02.280 claiming he didn't choke her. Well, Hannah May saying he 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:05.200 choked her like that his arm was on her throat. 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:08.880 So some of these things were pretty strange to me, 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:15.520 the way he would describe them. By age fifteen, Hannahme 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:18.320 Rodent was pregnant and gave birth to her daughter she 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:23.480 shared with Jake Wagner. Her tumultuous relationship with Jake ended 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:26.400 in February of twenty fifteen, a little more than a 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:30.400 year before the murders. Jake Wagner described his family's motive 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:32.880 and one of the worst massacres in Ohio's history that 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:35.160 led to the death of eight members of the Rodent family. 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:39.280 After their relationship broke up, Jake testified that he and 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:42.160 his mother, Angela began to have concerns about the safety 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:44.800 of his daughter, who was living with the Rodents. This 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:48.480 was true in particular after Hannah May started dating Corey Holdron, 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:51.959 who Jake believed was dealing drugs. Jake said he was 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:54.480 concerned his daughter wouldn't be safe living with the Rodents, 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:57.319 even going as far as saying he was concerned would 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:00.360 be molested. Since he said it happened in both his 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:08.960 family and Hannah's family, Jake testified that his mother, Angela Wagner, 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:14.000 was monitoring Hannah May's private Facebook conversations. Jake's concern for 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:16.240 his daughter only grew when he became aware of an 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:19.520 online conversation where Hannah said the only way she would 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:22.160 give up custody of their daughter is if the Wagner's 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:26.800 killed her First. Wagner said that his father, Billy Wagner, 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:30.240 first mentioned a murder plot, but he would not let 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:34.160 it happen. Jake testified he told Hannah he was concerned 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:36.920 that their daughter could be molested, and he claims that 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:40.440 Hannah was dismissive, saying, quote, if that happens, we'll just 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:43.840 have to deal with it. That alleged response, Jake Wagner 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:49.080 told the court was the tipping point. Jake Wagner said, 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:51.520 by the winter of twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen, he 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:54.719 was concerned that his daughter with Hannah Rodin might be molested, 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:57.760 so he decided his only choice to protect his daughter 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:02.960 was actually to kill Hannah. The prosecution says basically that 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:06.240 that was made up, this fear that the little girl 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:09.800 would be molested. The prosecution basically says that was something 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:13.520 they kind of whipped up in their heads to justify 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:19.520 what they wanted to do. And we get earlier in 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:22.880 the trial of seeing text messages or Facebook messages where 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:28.760 Hanname and Jake were talking about their child, and it 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:31.640 was just amazing to me that in some points he 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.880 would say things like I'll take her even if I 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:38.960 have to do it by force, just some really eerie foreshadowing. 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:46.240 So it just seemed to me that they for whatever reason, 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:49.080 and everybody wants their children to be with them, but 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:53.680 this seems to be some type of demand, like, no, 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:59.440 this child is going to be with me. Once he 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:02.200 made up as mine that Hannah may had to be killed, 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:06.000 Jake testified that the Wagner family began to plan and plot. 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:11.960 His first idea was to frame Hannah's boyfriend, Corey Holdron. 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:17.200 Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati, now with 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:21.400 Local twelve. He's followed by Long Crimes and Jeanette Levy. 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:27.000 Jake was convinced that something needed to be done, that 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:30.960 they were going to kill Hannah and Corey and make 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.120 it look like a murder suicide, and Billy said, no, 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:36.160 you can't do that either, because they'll figure out it 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:38.560 was awesome, they'll come after us. I don't want somebody 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:41.160 up there on the hill with a sniper rifle killing 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:44.040 us Billy said, well, you know, if you kill her, 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:47.560 you're gonna have to kill Chris and Frankie because they 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:49.560 will know who you did it and they will come 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:53.960 after you. So it was just this insane like, oh yeah, 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:56.000 I mean you're gonna kill well, we're gonna kill her. 0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:01.480 We got to kill everybody else too. We're going to 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:07.480 take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Oh. 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:10.480 I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:14.000 girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:18.680 a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:24.920 He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:29.520 he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:34.720 He really wasn't, he shouted into the point she went unconscious. 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:39.240 Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:43.280 time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:46.240 girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.600 pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:51.440 I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now, 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:53.760 I'd spit on him. I would call him and I 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.600 would say, I know you killed my sister. I will 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:59.600 always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:03.840 The girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:09.360 wherever you get your podcasts. They say history is written 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.360 by the victors, but you know what they've left out 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:16.240 a hell of a lot of juicy stuff. Date Abe 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:20.320 Lincoln's assassination. Did you know a young couple was sitting 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:23.280 right next to him when he was shot? It haunted 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:27.600 the husband so much he later murdered his wife. Ah, 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:30.840 we all know who invented that, right, and we'll think again. 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:34.520 Truth is Alexander Graham. Bell stole the idea for the 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:38.080 telephone and then claimed it as his own. For every 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:41.920 pivotal moment in history, there's always a backstory, and it's 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:45.880 usually way more interesting than the big story. From mysterious 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:49.880 murders to the baffling sleep schedules of yesteryear to the 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:54.040 fascinating lives of those just outside the limelight. Where going 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:57.360 to uncover the forgotten pieces of history you didn't know 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:00.200 you need it to know. Listen to the Backstory Rate 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:03.520 with Me Patty Steele twice a week on the iHeartRadio app, 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:07.639 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, Hello, 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:11.200 Malcolm Gladwell here, host of Revisionous History, a show about 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:15.720 the overlooked and the misunderstood stories you won't hear anywhere 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:20.960 else like our ongoing obsessive campaign to blow up the 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:24.920 world's most focus college ranking system. Why not just throw 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:29.160 in a few extra zeros or witness me after years 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:32.399 of fancy public speaking, learning that I kind of have 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:35.399 to start over. The tone that you had throughout the 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:38.119 debate was very similar to some of the students that 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:40.440 I do work with, and that's what I teach them 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:43.080 not to do. We're making more revisionous history for you 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:47.080 this year than ever from places all across this great 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:53.479 country emergency rooms, huge theaters, small towns and shooting righteous 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:56.080 and you want to put your thumb up like the 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:59.439 US Are you gonna pull the trigger with this finger? Here? Okay, 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:04.280 into revisionist history on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:09.040 or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm your host, Billy Man, 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:12.280 and this is okay. Let's try again, getting closer, guys. 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.639 This is my podcast. Yeah, I've set up. I've been 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:19.240 a Grammy nominated record producer and entrepreneur for over thirty years, 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:20.760 and that has put me in the room with some 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:24.119 of the most successful individuals in the world. Kelly Rowland, 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:29.520 Jill Cartman, Rinale Scoldsberry, Allie and agent Miss Gillies in here. 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:32.040 You want somebody who's a you'll come to the right place. 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:34.679 What I wanted to do was have honest conversations with 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.560 them about their failures. I wasn't just changing jobs. My 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:39.959 life was over. I was so close to getting fired. 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:43.159 I was failing so bad, it said Kelly Rowland is 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:46.639 no longer a viable artist. That really did a number 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:49.440 on me. He said, you're boring, So get that hell 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:53.040 out of my club. Even the most successful people deal 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:55.480 with feelings of failure. But what they do is they 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:58.640 embrace their up and they learn from it. Listen to Yeah, 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.760 I've that up on the radio app, Apple podcast or 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:14.960 wherever you get your podcasts, Jake said. The Wagner spent 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:18.880 three months preparing, buying everything from ammunition to shoes from 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:22.280 Walmart to a device to jam phone calls. Jake even 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:26.000 order to Captain Americo Winter Soldier mask, specifically for his 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:30.080 brother George to wear. Jake Wagner said that his brother George, 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:33.000 who's on trial, was with him when he bought a 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:36.480 pickup truck and a false truck bed cover for those killings. 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:40.800 On the afternoon of April twenty first, Billy Wagner told 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:46.320 his sons this would be the night. Four days earlier, 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.359 Hannah Rodin had given birth to her second child, so 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:52.600 they knew she would be home. Billy Wagner also believed 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:56.480 the cloudy weather would prevent surveillance satellites from tracking their movements. 0:19:57.240 --> 0:19:59.439 Wager said he dyed his hair a dark brown like 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:02.800 a character during the movie Boondocks. Saints. Wagner said, before 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:05.000 heading out, he watched a clip of the movie to 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:12.840 quote psyche myself into what I was about to do next. 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:15.800 Jake Wagner described how he walked barefoot to the truck 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:18.840 to avoid tracking any dirt from his home. Here again, 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:24.040 forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan, we had longed to hear 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:27.880 about what happened that night, what went into the planning. 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:31.600 You know, I was particularly interested in the care that 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:35.760 Jake talked about with walking barefoot when he went back 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:38.480 to the vehicle. He wanted to prevent any kind of 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.640 prints being left behind. He had enough sense about that, 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:44.679 and he even knew about soil types, which is fascinating 0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:47.879 me because you know, there's an entire discipline. He's not 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:50.639 a dummy. He was aware of that, he had a 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:53.679 sensitivity to it. I think it's another kind of point 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:57.399 along the continuum that goes to kill, because that's a 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:02.840 premeditative factor. Then Jake described how they went from house 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:07.440 to house killing eight people. Jake described how his father, Billy, 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:10.159 as well as George all took part in these murders 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:12.560 on that night, and he went into detail, describing that 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:14.800 they modified the bed of their truck in order to 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:17.720 hide George and himself in the back while his father 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:22.080 drove them to the Rodents trailers. Once at the Roden's 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:26.280 property on Union Hill Road, Billy Wagner lured Chris Roden outside. 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:29.320 Jake said the plan was to shoot Chris Senior as 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:32.480 he and Billy walked back towards the Roden's marijuana grow site, 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:36.920 but the shot never came. Prosecutors were asking if George 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:39.320 was going to be involved in the killings. Jake said yes. 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:42.639 Jake testify the George was actually supposed to kill Chris 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:46.400 Roden Senior. Jake testified George was in a firing position. 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:48.919 Jake said he told him to shoot, but he didn't. 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:52.280 After a few minutes outside, Chris Senior and Billy Wagner 0:21:52.320 --> 0:21:55.639 went back into the trailer where Chris's cousin, Gary Roden was. 0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:59.040 After a few minutes, Billy was able to convince Chris 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:01.639 to come to the door one more time, and the 0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:09.560 killing spree began again. Investigative reporters James Pilcher and an 0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:14.520 Seinette Levy Jake takes the rifle from George and then 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:17.360 when Chris shows up in the doorway, he shoots him 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:19.960 with the s cast and he says he missed or 0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:22.200 couldn't get a shot. He missed the first shot that 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:24.919 went above him, and then he'd lowered it, closed his 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:27.480 eyes and just pulled off a bunch of shots. And 0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:30.359 that's later corroborated by the evidence where you see all 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:33.680 of these other bullet holes all around the doorframe where 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:37.640 he missed, but then obviously on the line hit Chris 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:40.800 in the shoulder, in the belly, in the arm. I'll 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:43.960 never forget seeing that autopsy photo of the arm. What 0:22:44.119 --> 0:22:46.880 really stood out to me it was just the way 0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:50.400 he talked about killing people like it was no big deal. 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:54.400 You would think after you maybe fired the first shot 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:57.720 at somebody's head, you might flinch, but it doesn't sound 0:22:57.760 --> 0:23:02.760 like there was any flinching on Jake's part. Inside, Billy 0:23:02.800 --> 0:23:06.440 Wagner killed Gary Rodin and fired several more shots into 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:10.080 Chris Senior's body. Jake Wagner said his father came running 0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:13.200 out of the house in a quote nervous breakdown. Jake 0:23:13.280 --> 0:23:16.359 said that Billy came out and was freaking out, and 0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:18.680 he was like, you can't freak out now, it's too late. 0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:24.480 There's no turning back. Jake went through Chris Roden's Senior's 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:27.199 pockets and grabbed the keys to the marijuana shed so 0:23:27.320 --> 0:23:30.160 he could remove the hard drive from the security system. 0:23:30.240 --> 0:23:32.840 When Jake returned to the trailer, he said Chris and 0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:35.960 Gary Roden's bodies have been moved into the back bedroom. 0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:39.240 Jake testified he threw a blanket on top of them, 0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:41.760 but admitted to the jury that he didn't know why. 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:46.159 Throughout his testimony, Jake appeared calm and responsive, and several 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:49.080 times throughout it he would even look at his brother George. However, 0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:51.479 I can say that George would avert his gaze multiple 0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:53.440 times and appeared to not even want to look at 0:23:53.480 --> 0:23:57.280 his brother. Next, the Wagners went to Frankie Roden's home. 0:23:57.840 --> 0:24:00.360 Jake said after he crawled through a window, he let 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:03.520 his brother and father in through the front door. Frankie 0:24:03.560 --> 0:24:06.720 Roden's three year old was lying on the couch. Jake 0:24:06.760 --> 0:24:09.080 said he walked past the sleeping child to the back 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:12.000 bedroom and shot Frankie Rodin in his head as he slept. 0:24:13.320 --> 0:24:17.359 He further testified that Frankie's fiance, Hannah Hazel Gilly, began 0:24:17.400 --> 0:24:21.359 to wake and Jake said he shot her too. Then, 0:24:21.480 --> 0:24:25.280 for no explained reason, Billie Wagner shot both Frankie and 0:24:25.600 --> 0:24:28.920 Hannah Hazel Gilly in the head as well. Their six 0:24:29.000 --> 0:24:35.560 month old son was sleeping between them. It was quite 0:24:35.960 --> 0:24:38.240 chilling in a way, and I feel like that word 0:24:38.320 --> 0:24:42.639 is sometimes overused, but just the matter of fact way 0:24:43.280 --> 0:24:48.360 in which he described shooting people, it was just very nonchalant, 0:24:50.359 --> 0:24:54.160 according to Jake. Then he his brother, George, and father 0:24:54.200 --> 0:24:57.520 Billy Wagner went to Dana Roden's home. She had just 0:24:57.680 --> 0:25:00.920 arrived home from work. The door was unlocked, and Jake 0:25:00.960 --> 0:25:03.560 said he just walked in. He was surprised to see 0:25:03.640 --> 0:25:09.040 Dana awake in her bed. Here again, investigative reporter Anjeanette Levy. 0:25:09.720 --> 0:25:12.440