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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate. Oh, you're sounding a little bit

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Speaker 2: what's the term happy? Yes, hold on, there's a little

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Speaker 2: bit more energy in your voice.

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Speaker 1: Oh, we're close to Halloween. I love Halloween, love it,

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Speaker 1: love it, love it. And we've talked about Halloween. The

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Speaker 1: only thing that I remember about Halloween with you is

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Speaker 1: that you say nobody in Colorado puts out jack o'

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Speaker 1: lanners because the deer eat them all. And then you

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Speaker 1: sent me a phone ume of a deer eating Lennar.

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Speaker 3: Yes, the Porsche pirates that we have out here, so.

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Speaker 1: I would like a more constructive, I think conversation about Halloween.

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Speaker 1: How did you celebrate it? I know that you were

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Speaker 1: moving a lot as a kid. Did you have a

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Speaker 1: particular tradition about Halloween that you and your parents celebrated.

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Speaker 3: No? Nothing, you know, nothing over the top.

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Speaker 2: My parents weren't real heavy into decorating for any of

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Speaker 2: the holidays, you know, more so for Christmas than than

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Speaker 2: anything else. Of course, we always had candy for the

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Speaker 2: trick or treat, and you know, my brother and I

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Speaker 2: would go trick or treating when we were really young.

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Speaker 2: I can't quite remember when we stopped doing that, but

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Speaker 2: you know, I have some very fond memories, particularly of

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Speaker 2: when I was really young, like five years old, at

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Speaker 2: Hill Air Force Base outside of Salt Lake City.

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Speaker 3: And you could not get away with this today, but.

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Speaker 2: The neighbors had set up a maze using cardboard boxes,

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Speaker 2: like refrigerator sized boxes that went all through their house.

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Speaker 2: So as a trick or treater as a little kid,

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Speaker 2: I'd have to get on my hands and knees and

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Speaker 2: disappear from site from whoever was watching me and travel

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Speaker 2: this maze. And they would have little outcroppings within the maze,

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Speaker 2: or you'd have like the wolverine you know that would

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Speaker 2: kind of jump out at you, or those types of things,

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Speaker 2: and eventually you'd get into where they had the candy.

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Speaker 3: And it was a really cool setup, I mean, very clever.

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Speaker 2: But nowadays, you know, me being the helicopter parent, there's

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Speaker 2: no way in hell would I let my kid disappear

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Speaker 2: into some person's house like that.

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Speaker 1: And I think a helicopter parent might be an understatement. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I agree. I agree. I had that kind of childhood too,

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Speaker 1: where we would go into, you know, the neighbor's houses.

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Speaker 1: I remember trick or treating with my friend one time

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Speaker 1: and we knocked on this woman's door. She came to

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Speaker 1: open the door and she said, oh my gosh, girls,

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Speaker 1: I don't have any candy. I just made a pot

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Speaker 1: of chicken. Or would you like some boiled chicken? And

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Speaker 1: I said, srure, of course, who doesn't want chicken?

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Speaker 3: Is?

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Speaker 1: We came in and a chicken.

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Speaker 3: Okay, this is Hansel and Gretel. Are you sure it

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Speaker 3: was chicken?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not sure chicken is the greatest draw

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Speaker 1: for twelve year olds, but it worked on us. We

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Speaker 1: came in and had some chicken.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 1: And then we left and that was it. I know, like,

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Speaker 1: would that happen today?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: But it was a nice memory. And then I loved

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Speaker 1: my friend Stella. I love this particular friend because she

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Speaker 1: hated and hates chocolate currently, and so we would sit down.

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Speaker 1: She'd take all my nasty sweet tarts sorry for fans

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Speaker 1: who love sweet tarts, and I would take every piece

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Speaker 1: of chocolate that she had. And that's what I do

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Speaker 1: to my kids today and take all their chocolate.

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Speaker 2: There you go, yeah, I'm I'm a sweetheart person, are

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Speaker 2: you really? But are you a chocolate person?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: I like chocolate, you know for sure. But like Smarties,

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Speaker 2: that type of thing was That was one of my

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Speaker 2: favorite candies of all time. But like the candy bars.

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Speaker 2: Three Musketeers, that's the bomb.

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Speaker 1: Really, yep, by we're going to go down a dypole here.

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Speaker 1: There's no contrast with three Muskets here, though, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's no like Chewy.

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Speaker 3: I don't I don't want chewy.

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Speaker 1: You don't like Chewy.

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Speaker 3: I don't want nuts. I don't want caramel, no, no.

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Speaker 2: And I if I'm doing chocolate, I just want pure chocolate.

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Speaker 2: You know, whether it be like the Hershy's Bar or

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Speaker 2: the Kisses, you know, that's that's what I want. And

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Speaker 2: I do like the dark chocolate, So you'd get the little,

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Speaker 2: the little Hershey's, you know, and you'd get the various

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Speaker 2: ones I always would go after. I think they call

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Speaker 2: it the dark specialty or specialty dark variety.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, special dark.

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Speaker 3: Ye.

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Speaker 1: My dad liked to freeze snicker bars in the freezer

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Speaker 1: and he ate one.

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Speaker 2: I know.

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Speaker 1: I don't get it either. He ate one and he

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Speaker 1: chipped his tooth.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if it says more about my dad's

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Speaker 1: teeth quality or more about the durability of this frozen

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Speaker 1: snicker bar.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he turned it into Yeah, I mean just hard

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Speaker 2: candy at that point.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure. My dad had

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Speaker 1: a lot of common sense, but that not involving chocolate bars.

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Speaker 1: He also used to eat giant, those really big Hershey

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Speaker 1: chocolate bars with almonds in them, which I loved. I

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Speaker 1: thought that was great. But I remember him telling me

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Speaker 1: one night he was sick. He was kind of going

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Speaker 1: through My dad you know, I told you died of

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Speaker 1: lung cancer long ago, and he was going through chemo.

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Speaker 1: He called me one morning. I was teaching at Fordham

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Speaker 1: and he called me in. He said, I didn't sleep

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Speaker 1: a look last night. It was awful. I said, oh, Kimo,

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Speaker 1: what's going on? He said, no, I just was wide

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Speaker 1: awake all night long. And I said, well, what did

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Speaker 1: you eat? He ate two of those bars? Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: pull the giant ones. And I said, I don't know

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Speaker 1: how much caffine and sugar is. You cannot eat like

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Speaker 1: a half a pound or whatever that was of candy.

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Speaker 1: He really his love for candy really overcame his common sense. Sometimes.

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Speaker 1: I think.

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Speaker 3: Sugar is addicting. There's no question about it.

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Speaker 1: Oh listen, buddy, We're not going down the sugar road

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Speaker 1: with you. I know how you feel about sugar. It's

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Speaker 1: as bad as some of the criminals you've encountered in

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Speaker 1: your career.

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Speaker 3: Is the way that you frame it, That's the way

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Speaker 3: it is. As I reach for my.

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Speaker 1: Beef jerky here, hold on now in your whiskey.

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Speaker 2: Probably, you know, I actually I just have you know,

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Speaker 2: my flavored water right now?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 2: Maybe maybe the next time we get together, I'll have

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Speaker 2: a poor Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Probably in the middle of this episode, I would say,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. There's a positive thing about this episode,

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Speaker 1: which is I'm so interested in kidnapping and people who

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Speaker 1: are willing to kidnap people. I find it fascinating the

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Speaker 1: wacky things that they ask the victims' families to do.

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Speaker 1: We've had many of those. I don't know if these

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Speaker 1: people think that they're pulled out of some sort of

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Speaker 1: Cops and Robbers movie, but you know, some of the

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Speaker 1: wacky instructions that we read about. But the hard part

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Speaker 1: about the story is that it involves a baby, and

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Speaker 1: we're not rehashing Lindbergh Baby, but this feels pretty familiar. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so we're going to be going down not a spooky

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Speaker 1: road with this story, but maybe just something that is

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Speaker 1: this mystery that I think was very difficult for investigators

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Speaker 1: to untangle. And it happens right after World War One starts,

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Speaker 1: so it's a great time period to talk about.

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Speaker 3: All right, Well, once again, I'm looking forward to hearing

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Speaker 3: the case.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I have your whiskey ready.

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Speaker 3: I might have to go run and grab the bottle.

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Speaker 1: You might right now. I don't know why you don't

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Speaker 1: have one downstairs right now in your man cave.

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Speaker 3: Because that gets dangerous.

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Speaker 1: Oh oh okay, all right, Well let's set the scene. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we are in Springfield, Missouri. I've told everybody my dad

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Speaker 1: was from Vandalia. I have very fond memories of Missouri,

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Speaker 1: and you know, driving in the snow, which I had

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Speaker 1: never really done before. And I don't know if you

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Speaker 1: do this, Paul, but I speak. Every time my book

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Speaker 1: comes out, I appear at the Saint Louis Library there,

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Speaker 1: the main library, and it is a wonderful book event.

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Speaker 1: I'm always happy to be there. So a big shout

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Speaker 1: out to the folks at the Saint Louis Library who

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Speaker 1: do such a good show. But I'm a big Missouri fan,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I really don't have any experience in

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Speaker 2: Missouri outside of that very same library. I did that,

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Speaker 2: I believe it was on my paperback tour, you know.

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Speaker 2: So flew into Saint Louis, never saw the arch, you know,

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Speaker 2: and flew out. That was my experience in Missouri and

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Speaker 2: in Saint Louis.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about Springfield. This is May thirtieth of nineteen seventeen, and,

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Speaker 1: as I said, a couple of months after the beginning

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Speaker 1: of World War One. So it will tell you a

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Speaker 1: lot about the importance of this story when I say,

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Speaker 1: when we start unraveling details, that this was front page

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Speaker 1: news in Missouri for quite a while, and that says

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Speaker 1: a lot considering we were going into war. So this

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Speaker 1: was a big deal, big deal. So this is on

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Speaker 1: a plateau in the middle of the Ozarks, which must

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Speaker 1: just be gorgeous. It's a warm spring night, like I said,

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Speaker 1: right at the end of May nineteen seventeen, and this

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Speaker 1: is happening in a wealthy enclave on a street called

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Speaker 1: Windomere Street. There are some a couple of different reports

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Speaker 1: that say one says Windemere Place and some Windomere Street

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Speaker 1: just a wealthy area. Let me tell you about the family.

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Speaker 1: This is the family of a wealthy banker. His name

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Speaker 1: is James Holland heat He's married to a woman named May.

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Speaker 1: He is thirty three and she is twenty eight, so

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Speaker 1: young couple from my point of view. Young. They have

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Speaker 1: two kids, James Junior, who is three, and a little

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Speaker 1: boy named Josiah Lloyd who everybody called Buddy. Buddy is

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Speaker 1: fourteen months old. This is a very very wealthy family

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Speaker 1: by any stretch of the imagination, let alone in Missouri.

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Speaker 1: He owns a dry goods store and he manages a bank,

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Speaker 1: but it sounds like he's pulled back from his role

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Speaker 1: a little bit with the bank. But it's well known

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Speaker 1: that he has a lot of money. He's one of

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Speaker 1: the wealthiest people I'm sure in the state. James is

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Speaker 1: worth about three million dollars, which is in today's money

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Speaker 1: about seventy five million, almost seventy five million dollars. So

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Speaker 1: this is wealthy, right, And now you know where we're

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Speaker 1: going with this kidnapping. Sometimes we talk about kidnappings. Well, actually,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if we've had a story yet where

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Speaker 1: it's a kidnapping that is purported to be a kidnapping

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Speaker 1: and it turns out to not be a kidnapping, it

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Speaker 1: turns out to be something else. When we talk about kidnappings,

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Speaker 1: they tend to actually be kidnappings for money, right, Can

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Speaker 1: you think of anything that's not a kidnapping for money?

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Speaker 1: When we do this, we had Linn Bergh.

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Speaker 2: Right, Well, you know, I think you know when you

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Speaker 2: start getting into when law enforcement gets called out for kidnapping.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what the percentage is, but there's a

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Speaker 2: decent percentage of cases in which the parents have hurt

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Speaker 2: their kid or killed their kid and now they're you know,

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Speaker 2: staging it to look like the kid has gone, you know,

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Speaker 2: and then there's numerous high profile examples of that type

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Speaker 2: of case. I'm trying to think. I can think of

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Speaker 2: two cases in my career in which there was a

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Speaker 2: bona fide kidnapping. One was of a wealthier adult woman,

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Speaker 2: and the other was a child that was kidnapped and

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Speaker 2: it's actually assaulted, but then the child was sort of

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Speaker 2: returned to the same neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: What happened with the wealthier woman.

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Speaker 3: She survived is what I recall.

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Speaker 2: It was a case from the late nineteen eighties, and

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Speaker 2: so I came on board shortly thereafter, and I had

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Speaker 2: a very small in lab role, but I remember talking.

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Speaker 3: To the uh we had a DA.

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Speaker 2: He was an amazing legal mind as well as just

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Speaker 2: what his contributions were to our criminal justice process out there.

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Speaker 2: His name was Bob Hole h O l E. You know,

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Speaker 2: so I'm Hole's He's Whole. We're probably related many many,

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Speaker 2: you know, decades ago over in England somewhere, but he

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Speaker 2: was involved. I remember him telling that story in terms

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Speaker 2: of how he was, you know, this woman was kidnapped

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Speaker 2: and now they're in the streets of San Francisco looking

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Speaker 2: for her, and there's communications. There was a ransom request,

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Speaker 2: you know, and they were trying to get that resolved,

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Speaker 2: and I don't quite remember how it got resolved, but

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Speaker 2: it did. But it was one of those when you

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Speaker 2: start talking about a bona fide kidnapping, that's the one

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Speaker 2: case that I sort of had a role in way

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Speaker 2: back when you all.

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Speaker 1: Need to refresh my memory on how these things were

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Speaker 1: handled and maybe should be handled when we're talking about

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Speaker 1: ransoms here pretty soon, So James and his wife who

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Speaker 1: goes by Jenny sometimes are at a dance. They're coming

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Speaker 1: home from the country club where they belong, and they

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Speaker 1: have it's a little confusing about the details, but they

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Speaker 1: have either a baby nurse or a maid, or two maids,

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Speaker 1: but it sounds like there are two people, so either

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Speaker 1: a baby nurse and a maid, or there are two maids,

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Speaker 1: but there are two, you know, domestic workers who are

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Speaker 1: staying with these two kids. And again we have a

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Speaker 1: three year old and we have a fourteen month old.

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Speaker 1: So they get back home, it's around midnight, warm summer night,

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventeen, and they go look in on the baby

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Speaker 1: in the nursery. The nursery is on the first floor.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I think is a little

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Speaker 1: confusing about this story is that there are some reports

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Speaker 1: that the baby nurse and the maid we're on the

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Speaker 1: upstairs floor and the nursery's on the bottom floor, or

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Speaker 1: they're both in an adjoining room, whatever the case. Buddy

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Speaker 1: is left alone. The fourteen month old is left alone

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Speaker 1: to go to sleep in his nursery. When the parents

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Speaker 1: go into the room, they see that Buddy is gone

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Speaker 1: and the nursery window is wide open. The screen has

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Speaker 1: been removed. They run around the house and then I'll

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Speaker 1: stop after this. They run around the house because they

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Speaker 1: want to know what happened. Number one to the two

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Speaker 1: women who were supposed to be looking after this kid,

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Speaker 1: and number two, where their other child is. James is fine,

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Speaker 1: James Junior is there. The three year old, he is

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Speaker 1: upstairs and unharmed. So the only person potentially who was

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Speaker 1: asleep downstairs was the fourteen month old. So you know,

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Speaker 1: they sound the alarm and off we go trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out what happened to this kid. So obviously, the

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Speaker 1: nursery has a window, an exterior window in it, which

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Speaker 1: I guess I thought about, you know, when I had

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Speaker 1: these two twins, like who could have access? I definitely

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Speaker 1: thought like that. I don't know if people in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventeen would have or would you have thought, can somebody

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Speaker 1: get into this house, you know and slip in and

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Speaker 1: slip out without me knowing accessing my kids?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely?

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Speaker 2: You know, that's just part of you know, assessing the

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Speaker 2: you know, the residents, and it's you know, like I know,

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Speaker 2: for raising my kids. Always had the kids on a

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Speaker 2: second floor, never on the first floor, you know, and

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Speaker 2: that's just part of you know, like when the kids

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Speaker 2: are now going to college, you know, are they on

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Speaker 2: the first floor, on the second floor, you know, And

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Speaker 2: that's just make it harder for the offender. Not only

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Speaker 2: does it make it harder to gain access to a

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Speaker 2: bedroom from the outside, you know, being on the second floor,

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Speaker 2: but also it's it's how two story structures are set up.

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Speaker 2: Typically you have one staircase going up and down, and

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Speaker 2: this is really the funnel of death for the offender.

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Speaker 2: He has to go through this particular structure and is confined.

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Speaker 3: And so this is where.

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Speaker 2: In my living you know situation, if if I've got

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Speaker 2: my kids on the second floor with me and I

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Speaker 2: hear something, if I'm confident nobody's in their room where

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Speaker 2: I'm at as I'm posting up on top of the

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Speaker 2: staircase and I'm waiting for somebody to show themselves in

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Speaker 2: that staircase. You know, that's just a tactically sound way

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Speaker 2: to handle let's say, an intruder in the middle of

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Speaker 2: the night. So that's where the you know, the advantages

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Speaker 2: are to the homeowner in that scenario, and if the

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Speaker 2: offender makes it up to the second floor, has to

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Speaker 2: go typically down that same staircase, right, and so it's

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Speaker 2: it's just that restriction that makes it hard for the offender.

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Speaker 2: So here, in this particular case, we have a fourteen

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Speaker 2: month old that is sleeping in a room on the

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Speaker 2: first floor, and everybody else in the house at the

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Speaker 2: time is at least on a second floor.

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Speaker 3: It sounds like right.

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Speaker 1: So you know, if you think about that, going back

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Speaker 1: to the Lindbergh baby, that if we believe that the

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Speaker 1: right people were caught for kidnapping him, they had made

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Speaker 1: a homemade ladder. Because this was remember I showed you

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Speaker 1: that photo. He was on the top floor. Charles Lindberg

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Speaker 1: Junior was on the top floor, but window access. And

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Speaker 1: the idea was that they climbed up this sort of

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Speaker 1: rickety makeshift ladder and got the baby and came down

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Speaker 1: and maybe fell because maybe one of the rungs was

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Speaker 1: broken and it was rural. This is different. This seems

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Speaker 1: like almost like a smashing grab. I mean, it's really

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Speaker 1: without the smashing part. It's it seems a little too

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Speaker 1: easy for somebody who's worth this amount of money and

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Speaker 1: who's in a city. I mean, you know, Springfield, if

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Speaker 1: we kind of get into it. Springfield is not a

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Speaker 1: massive town at this time period, but there certainly is

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Speaker 1: some kind of crime.

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Speaker 2: I think also nineteen seventeen Midwest, how many people were

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Speaker 2: locking their doors, locking their windows, you know. So this's

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Speaker 2: pretty typical. And I you know, the first question that

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Speaker 2: I have is whether or not do we have any

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Speaker 2: information was the window locked? Was window pride, you know,

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Speaker 2: or did the offender just have to take the screen

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Speaker 2: off and then open up the window.

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Speaker 1: We'll keep going and then we'll see if I can

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Speaker 1: figure that information out for you. Okay, they're calling in

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Speaker 1: the bloodhounds. We've talked about bloodhounds before, so this is

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Speaker 1: what they say. The Keith call the police immediately, volunteers

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Speaker 1: show up. They're very important. This is almost midnight, I mean,

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Speaker 1: how terrifying. They start searching through the night. The police

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Speaker 1: bring bloodhounds and they find by scent and trace it

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Speaker 1: to the outskirts of town and then they lose it

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Speaker 1: there about eight thirty in the morning, so they are

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Speaker 1: searching for you know, seven to eight hours, and they

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Speaker 1: think that when they lost the scent, the kidnappers had

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Speaker 1: been carrying the baby by foot. And then they get

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Speaker 1: to that spot on the edge of town and there's

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Speaker 1: a good away car. So is that accurate? Can bloodhounds

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Speaker 1: really tell you all that?

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Speaker 2: Yes, you know, dogs are amazing, but it also is

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Speaker 2: dependent on the handlert, It's dependent on the environmental conditions.

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Speaker 2: There's so many variables. So there's no question that whether

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Speaker 2: it's bloodhounds. And we know bloodhounds are a breed that

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Speaker 2: have very very sensitive noses, but then there's other other

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Speaker 2: breeds that are very good at at tracking as well

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Speaker 2: their assessment, you know, in terms of if these dogs

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Speaker 2: were able to be on a scent trail for that

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Speaker 2: log I would agree it sounds like Buddy is being

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Speaker 2: carried on foot. And then once that trail disappears, then

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Speaker 2: likely into a vehicle. Now it's you know, it's not

381
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Speaker 2: conclusive of that, and you can't even you know the

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Speaker 2: problem is it's like with dogs, they can't talk to you.

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Speaker 2: So it's like, are they truly on buddies scent? Did

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Speaker 2: they pick up on something else inside the house?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 2: And then they're following that. You know, there's there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of variables in which it's a tool. Dogs are

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Speaker 2: a tool, and they're a valuable tool, but you can't

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Speaker 2: put one percent confidence into any you know, sent track.

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Speaker 1: Well, these bloodhounds actually hit paid later on, so that's

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Speaker 1: good to know somebody is competent, either the dogs or

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Speaker 1: the handler or both. But they are very very helpful

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Speaker 1: later on. And I will be honest, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I've ever read anything on a story where bloodhounds

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Speaker 1: have actually been helpful in this time period. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've never read a story where the bloodhounds actually tracked

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Speaker 1: down the person, the suspect, the victim, anything, But they're

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Speaker 1: helpful here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I think you know, in modern era, you know,

400
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Speaker 2: we've had dogs out on multiple cases I was involved

401
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Speaker 2: with for a variety of reasons, you know, whether it

402
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Speaker 2: be decompt dogs looking for human remains or in the

403
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,880
Speaker 2: like in this situation where they're scent dogs and they're

404
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:45,399
Speaker 2: trying to track down the scent. But most frequently you

405
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,800
Speaker 2: have your canine handlers, you know, and they get dispatched

406
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Speaker 2: to a location and sometimes you know, they have their

407
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Speaker 2: dog go. I mean, dogs are incredible. You know, the

408
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Speaker 2: dogs are able to go and find the bad guy,

409
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Speaker 2: whereas the humans are just you know, kind of standing.

410
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,400
Speaker 2: They're going, well, I know he's out there somewhere, I hope,

411
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Speaker 2: so it's again. You know, there's plenty of examples of

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Speaker 2: dogs that have really benefited cases as well as just

413
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Speaker 2: you know, general crime fighting.

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Speaker 1: Well, and just to go back to American Sherlock and

415
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Speaker 1: the train robbery that's in my book nineteen twenty three,

416
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Speaker 1: that would be robbers. I hate to call them train

417
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Speaker 1: robbers because they actually blew up part of the train

418
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Speaker 1: and could not get any money. They actually didn't get anything,

419
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Speaker 1: so I'm not sure we could qualify them as robbers.

420
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Speaker 1: But these guys, these brothers, they wore burlap covers on

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Speaker 1: their shoes, their boots, and they soaked them in creosote.

422
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Speaker 1: Is that how you say that? I think so, yeah,

423
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Speaker 1: to throw off the scent of the dogs. And it worked.

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Speaker 1: It worked. It was the only smart thing they did

425
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Speaker 1: to me, honest, But it worked.

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Speaker 3: Under that scenario.

427
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Speaker 2: You know, it really depends on what the handler is

428
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Speaker 2: asking the dog to scent off of, you know, because

429
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Speaker 2: even though let's say your footwear is been put in

430
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Speaker 2: some you know, this somewhat of this noxious type of

431
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Speaker 2: you know, chemical, if the handlers knew that that's what

432
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Speaker 2: these guys did, then they would just have the dog

433
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Speaker 2: sent off that chemical and follow it. And that would be,

434
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Speaker 2: I would imagine, very easy when you have the offenders,

435
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Speaker 2: you know, you don't have their necessarily real good sent

436
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 2: articles to tell the dog this is what I want

437
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,679
Speaker 2: you to follow. So let's say those you don't want

438
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 2: to call them train robbers, they're really vandals. You know,

439
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 2: they just kind of destroyed property and they're incompetence.

440
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,920
Speaker 3: But you know, if let's say.

441
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,879
Speaker 2: They dropped a mask and the you know, the handler

442
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:41,960
Speaker 2: knew that mask came from one of the bad guys,

443
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 2: then he would have the dog sent from that mask

444
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 2: and the scent comes from the other parts of the

445
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 2: the bad guy's body. And so that scent and oftentimes

446
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 2: will pool on the ground. That's why the dog sniffed

447
00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 2: the ground, and so they can be told ignore the

448
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 2: koreosote sent this, and I bet the dogs would be

449
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:05,160
Speaker 2: able to differentiate.

450
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 1: That's interesting. Well, we'll see. I'll tell you later how

451
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: the dog has become helpful. Everyone's freaking out. They've lost

452
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 1: the scent. They think that Buddy has had kidnappers take

453
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,919
Speaker 1: him on foot, and then they think that at the

454
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 1: outskirts of town that he's been put in a car.

455
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 1: They have no idea what this fourteen month old is.

456
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 1: That morning, after they lose the scent, the Keat family

457
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 1: gets a ransom letter and the letter is addressed to

458
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 1: the Holland Bank where James was vice president. Now he

459
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,439
Speaker 1: has a less involved role, he obviously still has access

460
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 1: to the money there. People know he's very wealthy, so

461
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 1: it goes to the bank. Unfortunately, there are a lot

462
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 1: of media leaks in this story, and it causes a

463
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 1: pretty big problem because the leak of this letter got

464
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 1: to the press, and I think mostly it's because they

465
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 1: said that the postal workers attracted some attention when they

466
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: were trying to get the letter to James. I guess

467
00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 1: they weren't subtle, and they said, you know, oh, I

468
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,199
Speaker 1: don't know if they're waiving it and saying it's a

469
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 1: ransom letter. But now the press knows. The ransom letter

470
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 1: is written in pencil and it says this, and actually

471
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 1: this is the This is a ransom letter that makes

472
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: more sense than many of them we've read before. We

473
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,439
Speaker 1: got your kid. Don't say anything to the police or

474
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,160
Speaker 1: put it in the papers. There are three of us,

475
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 1: and we want two thousand dollars a piece, so it

476
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 1: will cost you six thousand dollars. Thanks for the math.

477
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 1: Six thousand dollars to get him. We got another picked out.

478
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 1: I'm assuming they mean kid. So if we don't get

479
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 1: this from you money, we can tell them to see

480
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 1: what we did to yours, to buddy. So the letter

481
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: says that they'll get more instructions in another letter the

482
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 1: next day. Six thousand dollars is about one hundred and

483
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,880
Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars today. So what do you think about that?

484
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 2: Well, it's very clear in terms of what they want.

485
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 2: It's not rambling. I think it's interesting that they're specifying

486
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 2: the number of a vendors three and you know, I

487
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,160
Speaker 2: get a little skeptical about that. You know, I would

488
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 2: tend to lean well, you may just have one offender

489
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 2: and wants to be more intimidating by adding a number there,

490
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 2: but not necessarily. That's kind of a hard thing to interpret.

491
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 2: The offender has taken Buddy out of Buddy's residence, most

492
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,919
Speaker 2: certainly would know or have access to the address. The

493
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:28,719
Speaker 2: letter could have gone directly to James. But it sounds

494
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 2: like they knew James's connection to the Holland Bank. So

495
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 2: that's a little bit of insight about the offender. Don't

496
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 2: know how much insight that is, but it's like, Okay,

497
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 2: why would how how does the offender know about his connection?

498
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 3: Is that just you know, through reading.

499
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 2: Newspaper articles, or is this does is there a personal

500
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 2: connection the offender has to that bank and or James

501
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,120
Speaker 2: knowing this connection to the bank, you know, So that's

502
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 2: just something I'm going to kind of go, okay, that's

503
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 2: that's an interesting bit of knowledge that the offender is

504
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 2: revealing kind of indirectly by sending the ransom note to

505
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 2: the bank itself.

506
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,120
Speaker 1: I wonder how they picked that number. Six thousand dollars

507
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: two thousand per person, We can't get into the mind

508
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:13,919
Speaker 1: of an offender, but how would you come up with

509
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 1: a ransom number? How would you know how much this

510
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: person is willing to pay? And incidentally, I'm pretty sure

511
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 1: he'd be willing to pay a lot more than that,

512
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: knowing what he's worth.

513
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,719
Speaker 2: Well, it would be interesting, you know, is there any

514
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 2: type of you know, in this day and age, certain

515
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: amounts of dollar transactions are tracked much more rigorously than

516
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 2: lesser amounts, you know, so I'd be kind of curious

517
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 2: to see is there anything monetarily that the offender is

518
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 2: trying to avoid by asking for a certain amount.

519
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 3: It may you never know, it may just be the.

520
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,719
Speaker 2: Offender is going, well, I want to buy, you know,

521
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 2: a fancy carriage with four horses, and it costs so much,

522
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 2: and so you know, that's the value. That's the amount

523
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 2: I'm going to ask for. You know, it's something that

524
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 2: the offender just happens to me, maybe as a gambling debt,

525
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 2: and that's the amount that he so right now, don't know,

526
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 2: you know, it's just it's curious.

527
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 1: Okay, So we're we're at six thousand right now, that's

528
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 1: what they want. James Keat goes to the sheriff, because

529
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 1: the sheriff is ready to investigate, and he says, I

530
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 1: don't want you to do one thing until we get

531
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: this additional letter. I want to pay the ransom. It

532
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: is no big deal. I want my kid back. And

533
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: the sheriff lets him, you know, stay in the driver's seat.

534
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: And so they say, okay, let's wait and see what

535
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: this next letter is. So again, this is fourteen years

536
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: before the Lindbergh baby kidnapping, which was the most high

537
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: profile kidnapping case as far as I know, certainly of

538
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 1: a child ever. And this is a time where kidnapping children,

539
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: non parental kidnappings are very very rare for ransom, So

540
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: the story becomes huge national news of course, you know,

541
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: all across the country, even though we're getting ready to

542
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: really dig into World War One. Now, this would have

543
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 1: been terrifying, I'm sure, you know, for all parents, but

544
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: particularly wealthy parents I'm sure are gripping their children a

545
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: little more tightly. The Keat family says nothing to the press,

546
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: but there is a lot of reporting to the kidnap

547
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: about the kidnapping as early as the morning after thanks

548
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: to the postal carriers really making a big deal going

549
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: from the bank over to James's house. The newspapers are

550
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: reporting that day that James's family got a ransom letter,

551
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 1: that the baby has been kidnapped, and everybody's in fear.

552
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: The articles say that mister Keat will not reveal the

553
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: contents of the ransom letter, and he's not going to

554
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: talk to the press. He has hired private investigators, and

555
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: every time I see the name of the firm, it

556
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: always makes me smile, the Pinkerton's. And I mean, I

557
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: think everybody's probably heard at least at once about the

558
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: Pinkerton Detective Agency.

559
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 3: I've heard of it.

560
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 2: I can't quite place why, but definitely a famous agency.

561
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 1: I mean, they were the go to for basically everything

562
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: is private detectives. And they were in Saint Louis. I

563
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: don't know if that's where they were based, but they

564
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: had a big office in Saint Louis, and you know

565
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: they investigated like armed robberies and train robberies and outlaws

566
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: and also you know, going back to murders. Anybody who

567
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: had the money could hire the Pinkertons, including the government.

568
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: James's brother is being pressured by the press to give

569
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: more information, and he says we are not doing any talking.

570
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: That is the order, and the order is being obeyed.

571
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: Now we get another letter. We do get these cases

572
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: where we get these really wacky instructions for ransom, and

573
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: now we kind of go I think off the deep end.

574
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: Do you have anything to say before I tell you

575
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: what their instructions are for James.

576
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 2: I think the only observation that I'm making right now

577
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 2: is from the very get go. When the parents come home,

578
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 2: they are responding as you would expect them to. There's

579
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 2: no delay in reporting. You know, once they've determined that

580
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 2: buddy is gone. You know, they are mobilized, seeing you know,

581
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 2: authorities and trying to do what they can. And I

582
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 2: completely understand James's position with the sheriff. You know, it's

583
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 2: just like no, hold on, you know, I'll pay the money.

584
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 2: I want my kid back. That is what most parents

585
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 2: would probably do under that scenario. You don't oftentimes, you know,

586
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 2: law enforcement.

587
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 3: You know, you don't want to.

588
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 2: Encourage this type of activity by cooperating. It's just that

589
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: when you're the parent, it's like, no, what's going to

590
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 2: happen if I don't cooperate? You know, It's it's sort

591
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 2: of the worst scenario you could be in.

592
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: Well, James is very upset. Of course he's reading this

593
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: note and he shows it to the sheriff and this

594
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: is what the note says in summary. They want James,

595
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: and only James, to leave by himself. I don't mean

596
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: to laugh through this some of the stuff they're having

597
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: him do. I know you're smiling to you. I don't

598
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: know where what movies these guys have been watching, but

599
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 1: this is what they want. He is a roadster, love roadsters.

600
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: They want him to paint one of the headlights of

601
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: the roadster the color red. Okay, he's supposed to He's

602
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: supposed to travel into the foothills of the Ozarks through

603
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: Green County and go under twenty miles per hour the

604
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: whole time, and he is told that he should be

605
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: listening for a voice to shout stop. Then he's supposed

606
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: to get out of the car and walk one hundred

607
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: paces backwards and set a white lantern on the road

608
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: with this money, the six thousand dollars. Then he's supposed

609
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: to drive one mile and then return back to get

610
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: the ladder. Presumably the kidnappers will take the money. Then

611
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: when he leaves, and then the kidnappers will have taken

612
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 1: the money and left behind a map that will lead

613
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: them to Buddy. I mean, what the hell this is

614
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 1: really complicated, you.

615
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 2: Know, as comical as it sounds, as I'm mentally kind

616
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 2: of going through this. So there's a certain logic to it,

617
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 2: and I think part of it is the geography, you know,

618
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 2: going up into the Ozarks. You know this idea of

619
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 2: him painting one headlight red on his roadster, Well, that

620
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 2: is something that they would be able to see from

621
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 2: a distance. Right, So now they're aware that James is

622
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 2: approaching underneath twenty miles an hour, they're able to gives

623
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 2: them greater time to assess the vehicle, assess is he alone,

624
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 2: is there anybody following him, is there anybody else in

625
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,959
Speaker 2: the vehicle, et cetera. And then the voice stop. So

626
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 2: they're not like walking out of the middle of the

627
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: road and holding their hand up. They're wanting to keep

628
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 2: their physical presence a mystery. So the use of the

629
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 2: voice makes sense. They're obviously having James drive past their location.

630
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 2: That's why they want him to walk backwards, to just

631
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 2: minimize the chance of him spotting something. The lantern, the money,

632
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 2: it's a beacon where now they can see him actually

633
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 2: deposit a container I'm assuming with the lantern, so at

634
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 2: least they know there's something that he's putting down. They

635
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 2: don't know the money's in there, but they still hold

636
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 2: the cards. They have buddy, you know, so he better

637
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 2: put the money down or he's not going to get

638
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 2: buddy and then to drive off for a mile, turn

639
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 2: around and come back. Well, that's going to give them

640
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 2: time to be able to go up there, ensure that

641
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 2: they got the money, drop the map, and in essence

642
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 2: put enough distance between that location and their escape for

643
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 2: the time it takes James to get back to the location.

644
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 2: So as as goofy as this scenario sounds, at least

645
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 2: as I'm going through this, I'm going, okay, you know,

646
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 2: it actually makes sense because they're trying to minimize their

647
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 2: risk offenders. That's part of their planning process. They want

648
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 2: to minimize the risk to themselves as they commit the crime.

649
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: Well, I just did a little bit of a search,

650
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: and we're talking about eighteen miles between Springfield, depending on

651
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: where he is, and Green County, So they're having him

652
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: drive less than twenty miles an hour for about eighteen miles.

653
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

654
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 2: Now, so they're telling him the entire distance he has

655
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 2: to drive less than twenty miles, not once he gets

656
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 2: into the Ozarks or whatever location.

657
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: Well, I mean they're telling him to go travel into

658
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,919
Speaker 1: the foothills of the Ozarks through Green County, right, you're right.

659
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: So I don't know how much further passed. I just

660
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: didn't get that information how much further past Green County

661
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: he was supposed to go into the Ozarks. But I mean,

662
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 1: you know the complaint, he says that he had to

663
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: drive all night long, so it must have been a

664
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: long drive for him.

665
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, And there may be a reason for that location

666
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,959
Speaker 2: to the offenders, it may just be purely I don't

667
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 2: know the terrain well enough, but my guess is is

668
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,320
Speaker 2: that where he is doing this drop off of the money,

669
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 2: that visibility from a distance is reduced, either because it's

670
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,919
Speaker 2: a hillier air or it's more forested, you know, more

671
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 2: curvy roads, you know, versus right out there in Springfield.

672
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 3: You know.

673
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 2: Plus, if they do have somebody following him when he

674
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 2: leaves his house, it's also gives them time to spot

675
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,280
Speaker 2: somebody that let's say, you know, the sheriff has a

676
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 2: you know, unmarked car that's following from a distance.

677
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: Well, funny you should say that that's going to come

678
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: into play in just a minute or two.

679
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 3: Imagine that. I know.

680
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: James says, okay, let's do it, and he gets in

681
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: his car, and he has the ransom money, the six

682
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. He's following the directions perfectly. There is a

683
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: lot of rain and a lot of tornado activity in

684
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: the area, but he does it. He follows the route

685
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: laid out in the ransom note. He drives, goes slowly,

686
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 1: and at the point where the kidnappers are supposed to

687
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 1: say stop, he'd never hear stop. Ever, the issue I

688
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: think is again, the second note got out to the press,

689
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: and there have been various reports that he was followed. Okay,

690
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 1: he was either followed by the sheriffs and they never

691
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 1: told him he was followed there. Actually, this is an

692
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: interesting quote. Some witnesses from smaller towns in Green County

693
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: told the reporters that they saw as many as a

694
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: dozen additional cars that were following him. That they think,

695
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 1: we're just like strangers trying to be helpful. Regardless, it

696
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,919
Speaker 1: pissed off the kidnappers and they never responded to him

697
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: until they send another note. So I guess well meaning people,

698
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: but they really botched this. If the kidnappers ever even

699
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: intended to follow through with this plan.

700
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know on that right now is going to

701
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 2: be the big question at this point. Let's say the

702
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 2: offenders bailed because they saw a scenario that was not

703
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 2: in line with their instructions. Now it comes down to

704
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,720
Speaker 2: how much do they want that money? And it sounds

705
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 2: like they communicate again. Is that what she said? Another

706
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:55,240
Speaker 2: letter comes.

707
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 1: In, Yes, So here's what happens next. The report is

708
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 1: that a little boy, after James gets home, runs to

709
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: his door, rings the bell and hands him a letter.

710
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 1: Nobody's talked to this kid, but you know I had wondered, Okay,

711
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 1: how is James receiving letters so quickly? Nobody's been able

712
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: to track that kid down, But he gets a letter

713
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 1: almost immediately when he gets home. The letter says, it

714
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: didn't take long to see what you were up to.

715
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: Every saloon in town knows how much we wanted money

716
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 1: and where we told you to go. Call off your

717
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 1: detective bloodhounds. If you don't, you'll never see the baby again.

718
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: If they ever get near us. The baby will be murdered.

719
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: So you're right, there's the smartest kidnappers that we've been

720
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: countured so far.

721
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 3: So from a timing standpoint, you're saying that when James

722
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,399
Speaker 3: gets home to his house from this money drop, he's

723
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,959
Speaker 3: already got a letter being handed to him.

724
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 1: So the report is that there's a little boy who

725
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: runs over with this letter and hand delivers it to

726
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: him and then vanishes. So they're obviously watching him. Somebody's

727
00:37:59,160 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: watching him.

728
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 3: Okay, So think about this.

729
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 2: You know, in this day and age, you know, you

730
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 2: got cell phones, mobile phones, but you know, in nineteen seventeen,

731
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 2: out in the middle of nowhere, you know, how is

732
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 2: somebody who sees him and then goes, oh, hold on,

733
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 2: there's other headlights out there in the ozarks, you know,

734
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 2: eighteen miles away. How is that information getting transmitted all

735
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 2: the way back to Springfield? You know that quickly. I'm

736
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 2: kind of wondering if they were watching him from the

737
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 2: very beginning or very early on in the route and

738
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 2: then saw the tail you know by you know, good

739
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 2: smiritan citizens or sheriff's whoever, and just called it off

740
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 2: at that point and then already had the note in hand.

741
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 3: By the time he got back.

742
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,800
Speaker 2: You know, they're they've given it to some kid, probably

743
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 2: paid the kid, you know, five dollars and say go

744
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 2: give this to this man when he comes home.

745
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,879
Speaker 1: The letter that he got when he when he came

746
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: home basically saying we know what you're doing and you

747
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 1: better stop. All so said, we will give you more instructions.

748
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: But we're not sure if they ever do get more

749
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: instructions because at some point the sheriff is going to

750
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: get a break in the case that doesn't have anything

751
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: to do with these letters. What sounds like happened was

752
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 1: James did this two more times every freaking time it

753
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,879
Speaker 1: gets out to the press, and it obviously, you know,

754
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 1: thwarts the plans of the kidnappers. One time they tell

755
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 1: him to arrange Listen to this, that James had been

756
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: instructed in another letter to arrange for a sign atop

757
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: a tall building in downtown Springfield to be illuminated when

758
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: he starts out on his trip. But the press reports

759
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: on it before this even happens. I don't know who

760
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 1: the leak is. There might be various leaks, but you know,

761
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: probably the Sheriff's department, I would guess. But he is

762
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: not making contact direct contact. He has the money, he's

763
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:53,879
Speaker 1: willing to do it. It sounds like the kidnappers want

764
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 1: the money, but because there's so much outside interference, this

765
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:58,280
Speaker 1: is not happening.

766
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 2: Well, kind of maybe stepping back to James receiving the

767
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 2: letter from the boy after he does the trip, James

768
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 2: is the one that is the controller of that information

769
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 2: at that point in time, and so of course it's like, well,

770
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 2: who is James communicating with such as the sheriff, you know,

771
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 2: and how is that information, you know, getting out at

772
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 2: a certain point. My expectation of James, let's say he

773
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 2: goes through this process and it gets screwed up again

774
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 2: outside of his control. I would think he would just

775
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 2: naturally circle the wagon and not tell anybody what the

776
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 2: next letter tells him to do, because each time, you know,

777
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 2: it's getting out. So that's that's interesting to me, you know,

778
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 2: is that you know these other letters that he receives,

779
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 2: are they direct handoffs to him? Are they also coming

780
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 2: in through the bank again or a post office? And

781
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 2: now you have potential multiple sources of leaks.

782
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: The first I believe was the bank, and that was

783
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: the one that was delivered by postal workers apparently, and

784
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 1: then I think the last two have been directly to

785
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,359
Speaker 1: him at his house. So yeah, I mean, obviously he's

786
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 1: being watched. So they seem very thorough, but they are pissed.

787
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 1: They are tired of this, the kidnappers, sure, And in

788
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 1: the meantime, the sheriff is conducting his own investigation, trying

789
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,760
Speaker 1: to get ahead of all of this. They are asking

790
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 1: everyone in Springfield where they were on the night of

791
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: May thirtieth when Buddy was kidnapped, and they do a

792
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 1: lot of canvassing and they actually get a lead. There

793
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: is a cabin at the edge of Springfield and in

794
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 1: that cabin is a man named Taylor Adams and he's

795
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 1: married to a woman named Ali Adams. He is known

796
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: as the town drunk. I'm sure there's a more PC

797
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 1: way to say that, but he is. He is somebody

798
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 1: who is often inebriated and maybe considered a little bit

799
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: of a pest. They have two adult sons, and that's

800
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 1: who we're going to be focusing on. These guys are

801
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,720
Speaker 1: named Kleatus and mac See, and they have a border

802
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,720
Speaker 1: named Claude. I don't know if you've done the math,

803
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: but that's three I was just starting.

804
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,280
Speaker 2: To add them up on my fingers and yes, I agree,

805
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 2: that's three.

806
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 1: That's three. I don't know why they if this is

807
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: who we're thinking of, I don't know why they would

808
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: tell the truth. There are kidnappers, I guess, who could

809
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 1: be smart in some ways and not so smart in

810
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 1: other ways. But I guess they were just explaining why

811
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 1: they needed that particular amount of money.

812
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, in terms of yeah, two thousand dollars each, so

813
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 3: six thousand dollars total.

814
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's weird. It's almost like justifying, well, this is

815
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 1: why we need this amount of money. They did say

816
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 1: in one of the letters. The longer this takes for

817
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: us to work this out, James, the more money we're

818
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 1: going to ask for. So they had actually upped it

819
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,439
Speaker 1: to ten thousand dollars, which is about almost a quarter

820
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 1: of a million today. So they were becoming very impatient

821
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: and not to take up for the kidnappers. I understand why.

822
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: When everything is being published in the press and people

823
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 1: are following their main mark here, it just seems very

824
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,760
Speaker 1: chaotic for everybody.

825
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 2: Well, this is something that they could not have anticipated.

826
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 2: They just want to get, you know, quick money, easy

827
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 2: m hmm. It's turning out it's not so easy. And

828
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 2: while they're waiting for the money, they've got this fourteen

829
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 2: month old, you know, and assuming that they didn't kill

830
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 2: Buddy right away, they're now having to care for this

831
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 2: fourteen month old while they go through all these processes

832
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 2: to try to figure out how can we get our money,

833
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 2: you know, without being discovered.

834
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're in a cabin, which I can't imagine is palatial,

835
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,879
Speaker 1: and they've got you know, their parents and these two

836
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: young men, and then they've got a border. So you're

837
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 1: talking about five people in a cabin. So it'll be

838
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 1: fascinating to me to see who knew about any of this,

839
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: that this is what happens. So now we go from

840
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 1: me saying the kidnappers seem pretty bright with some of

841
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 1: the decisions that they've made, and you've said, you know,

842
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 1: some of the stuff that they've said for Jamie to

843
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 1: do makes sense. Now they start doing things that don't

844
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 1: make sense as far as I'm concerned, if these are

845
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: our people. They are vague when the police who are

846
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 1: canvassing and talking to everybody on earth about this story,

847
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: they're vague about where they were on May thirtieth. I

848
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,839
Speaker 1: can't imagine everybody has a solid alibi. There's you know,

849
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: no TV, but probably people are with their families, but

850
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 1: they are unusually vague about really not even being able

851
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: to say what they were doing in any realm. Claude

852
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: has already been talking around town about being involved in

853
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 1: two different ransom plots, not involving Buddy Keat. He is

854
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: mouthing off about trying to kidnap a local jeweler and

855
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: a local munitions dealer. But both of those kidnappings fell

856
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 1: through this is the border, not the two sons. So

857
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 1: now they're alarmed because they had heard rumors about this

858
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 1: the Sheriff's department, and that's why they want to talk

859
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: to Claude. I think they think it's you know, a quinketin,

860
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:04,720
Speaker 1: not that he's talking about kidnapping and there's a kidnapped baby.

861
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 2: Well, I think, you know, if this group is responsible.

862
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 2: Anytime you have like this conspiracy amongst thieves for law enforcement,

863
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 2: that's what you hope for because there's a weak link

864
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 2: there somewhere. At some point, somebody's going to either directly

865
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 2: come to law enforcement because they feel that they're going

866
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 2: to be targeted and they're scared about what's going to

867
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 2: happen to them, or they're around town, they get drunk

868
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,800
Speaker 2: and they start talking to you know, their bar buddy,

869
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 2: you know, scenarios like that, and next thing you know,

870
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 2: the tips are coming in. So inside this little shack,

871
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 2: you've got five adults and potentially a fourteen month old.

872
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 2: You know, it seems like stress levels are going to

873
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 2: go up.

874
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: Yes, I would say that's an understatement. The police, once

875
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: they start getting information about what Claude is saying around

876
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 1: town that they were going to, you know, kidnap a

877
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 1: jeweler and ammunition's dealer, they start trying to figure out

878
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 1: who their associates are and they bring in seven people.

879
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 1: They bring Claude the border in. They bring all four

880
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,720
Speaker 1: members of the family, the parents, a driver named George

881
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 1: Walker who doesn't work with them, and a cook named

882
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 1: Sam McGinnis who doesn't work for them. These are all

883
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 1: people that they know. It's their inner circle. They're all

884
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 1: arrested because the police say, we cannot connect them to

885
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 1: Buddy yet, but we are trying to connect them to

886
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:32,319
Speaker 1: these other two potential kidnappings that never happened. In the

887
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 1: course of questioning, all seven of these people, which I

888
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 1: assume they split them all up and question them. There

889
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,240
Speaker 1: is word from someone within this group that the plan

890
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 1: was to take the jeweler, in particular to an abandoned mansion.

891
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 1: Can't get any creepier for our Halloween episode, an abandoned

892
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 1: mansion outside the city called the Crenshaw Mansion. This is

893
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 1: where police say, well, heck, let's go and see if

894
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,800
Speaker 1: Buddy is there, and that will of course then connect

895
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: Buddy to them and you know, hopefully he'll be alive

896
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:06,399
Speaker 1: and they've thwarted this kidnapping. But that's where we are now.

897
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,320
Speaker 1: I mean, they just it is one person who mouthed

898
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 1: off that led to all of this.

899
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:13,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's what happens.

900
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:15,439
Speaker 1: If you're going to commit a crime, don't get other

901
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:16,760
Speaker 1: people involved.

902
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, you know, most early if you want information security,

903
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 2: you know this is now. You know you've got let's say,

904
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 2: these seven people separated being interviewed.

905
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 3: I just harken back to that Russell Crowe.

906
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 2: Movie La Confidential, Uh huh, you know where basically, I

907
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 2: mean I can easily see where a detective goes in

908
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 2: to Kletis or Maxie and is like Claude's spilling the

909
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 2: beans here.

910
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you know, putting it all on you.

911
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 2: And you know, let's see how they respond, you know,

912
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 2: because Claude, it's already known Claud's around town spouting off.

913
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 2: So just blame Claude, you know, and say, hey, Claude's

914
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 2: the one that's telling us everything.

915
00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 3: So how do you respond to that.

916
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:03,800
Speaker 1: Well, they are most concerned about trying to find Buddy alive.

917
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: So this is now June sixth, so we're thinking about

918
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: a week or so later after he has been kidnapped,

919
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 1: maybe eight days. A group that includes police officers and

920
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,919
Speaker 1: friends of the family go up to this mansion and

921
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 1: once they bring bloodhounds, thank Goodness with them. The bloodhounds

922
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: immediately pick up on his scent, Buddy scent once they

923
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: get to this mansion. And remember this is just one

924
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 1: person saying this was the game plan that never happened.

925
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 1: We were supposed to take this jeweler out to the

926
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 1: mansion and wait there. They pick up on buddy scent,

927
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 1: and the hounds eventually find a piece of Buddy's baby

928
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 1: blanket inside the abandoned mansion, and they find an empty

929
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 1: crib with clean sheets and a makeshift caught next to

930
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 1: the crib, but they do not find Buddy. The group

931
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 1: that they've arrested maintained they had nothing to do with

932
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 1: this kidnapping, except obviously there's evidence that someone was keeping

933
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 1: a baby at this abandoned mansion and they've already been

934
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 1: connected to it. So they can't find Buddy, but his

935
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,759
Speaker 1: baby blanket is there. Okay, So now we're going to

936
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,919
Speaker 1: get into the trigger warning because I know everybody knows

937
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 1: where this is going. Unfortunately, three days later, on June ninth,

938
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: they go and do another search of the mansion and

939
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 1: the grounds. This time they find an old well. We're

940
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:27,399
Speaker 1: back with old wells. I feel like we do these

941
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: stories a lot. They remove the stone cover, and when

942
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 1: they do, they see one of the baby's feet sticking

943
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:37,919
Speaker 1: above the surface of the water, about eight feet down.

944
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: And here's the hard part. And then I want you

945
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 1: to respond to that his parents had heard a report

946
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: saying that Buddy had been found alive. I mean, misinformation everywhere.

947
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 1: And then they find out the truth, and it's of

948
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: course heartbreaking for them. Authorities just say they thought that

949
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: the kidnappers, whomever they are, and they're assuming it's this group,

950
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:00,399
Speaker 1: thought that the story had become too hot, and they

951
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,360
Speaker 1: killed the baby and gave up hopes of getting the ransom.

952
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 1: So what do you think about all that? And then

953
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 1: I have information about cause of death? Bad ending.

954
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, the presence of the crib with

955
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 2: a cotton next to it tends to indicate that there

956
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 2: is at least a thought that they Buddy was going

957
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 2: to be kept alive for a period of time. I

958
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 2: would also be assessing, well, what else did they find?

959
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:25,360
Speaker 2: Is there dirty diapers?

960
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 3: You know?

961
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 2: Is there I don't know what kind of food Back

962
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventeen, you know, a toddler would be eating.

963
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 2: But is there evidence that Buddy was alive for a

964
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 2: period of time? And this is going to be somewhat stereotypical,

965
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 2: But you've got these seven adults and only one of

966
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 2: the adults is a woman, Ali, you know, was she

967
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 2: the caretaker for Buddy?

968
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 3: You know?

969
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 2: I think that may be something where I could see

970
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 2: if she's not involved in this scheme but is now

971
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 2: being tasked with having to care for Buddy, she may

972
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 2: be a weak link from an interview standpoint. I mean,

973
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 2: they have even bonded with this child. It's hard to

974
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 2: say right now. Was Buddy killed right away, you know,

975
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 2: or did they hold Buddy for a period of time

976
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 2: and then once things were starting to go sideways with

977
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 2: all the public attention and law enforcement involvement and the

978
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 2: money drop offs not working, did they just decide, Okay,

979
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 2: we got to cut bait and run. And the way

980
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 2: they did that was, you know, kill Buddy in some

981
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 2: manner and hide the body. And it's at a location

982
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:32,359
Speaker 2: that is separate from their living quarters, you know, it's

983
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 2: at the Crenshaw Mansion, on the grounds of the Crenshaw

984
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:38,320
Speaker 2: Mansion versus back where their shed is their cabin.

985
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,840
Speaker 1: So let me tell you about the autopsy. The autopsy

986
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:44,359
Speaker 1: showed that he had been suffocated. They did not find

987
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:48,320
Speaker 1: any water in his lungs. The medical examiner or whoever

988
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 1: corner whoever did the exam, said that he thought that

989
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 1: Buddy had been dead for four or five days from

990
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 1: when he was discovered, which would have meant, you know,

991
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 1: the kidnappers were keeping him alive, and probably on the

992
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 1: second attempt they said, well, this is never going to work,

993
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 1: and then they killed him. I was immediately questioning whether

994
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 1: a body in the well for however many days, if

995
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: they would really be able to get an accurate time

996
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: of death.

997
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 3: What do you think, Well, it's not going to be

998
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 3: very accurate.

999
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:23,480
Speaker 2: If the pathologist is experienced, he's got a library in

1000
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 2: his head of all these bodies that he's done autopsies

1001
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 2: on under the various circumstances. And so if he takes

1002
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 2: into account that this baby has been put into this well,

1003
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:37,399
Speaker 2: it's been in the water for a period of time.

1004
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 2: Even though this is a warm spring day, the well

1005
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 2: water is probably cool, so it's going to slow down

1006
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,280
Speaker 2: some of the decomposition, and so that may extend out

1007
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 2: some of the indicators of length of time that Buddy

1008
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 2: has been dead. I would say that he's at least,

1009
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:57,319
Speaker 2: you know, his estimation of the how long Buddy's been

1010
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 2: dead is probably within a reasonable dough of time.

1011
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 3: It's not going to be spot on.

1012
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:07,720
Speaker 1: Okay, So once the police find Buddy's body, it turns

1013
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 1: into mayhem. As you can guess, the case attracts a

1014
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:15,280
Speaker 1: lot of attention. There is a point where a mob

1015
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 1: of people actually get their hands on Claude the Border,

1016
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 1: the one who's really been talking to the police, after

1017
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 1: chasing the sheriff all the way to Stockton, Missouri. This mob,

1018
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 1: which is thousands of people steak Claude and tie a

1019
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 1: noose around his neck and string him up three times,

1020
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 1: trying to get him to admit that he kidnapped and

1021
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:36,800
Speaker 1: killed the baby. But of course, you know press in

1022
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: nineteen seventeen they said at least twenty thousand people. I'm

1023
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 1: not sure about that, but he maintains his innocence and

1024
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 1: each time he passes out, they aren't managing to murder

1025
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 1: him or anything. Finally he has given back to the

1026
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 1: sheriff and all seven people are arrested. Then it gets

1027
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 1: broken up early in an interesting way. Claude and the

1028
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: four members of the Adams family are all charged with

1029
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:04,799
Speaker 1: kidnapping murder, and eventually they drop the charges against the

1030
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:10,280
Speaker 1: mom and one of the brothers, Taylor and Kletas, plead

1031
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 1: guilty and they get sentenced to fifteen years in prison.

1032
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 1: Claude says he was not guilty. He pleads not guilty,

1033
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:21,719
Speaker 1: and he goes to trial. And here's the interesting part.

1034
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:25,279
Speaker 1: One handwriting expert thank goodness for trials, otherwise I would

1035
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 1: have no stories at all. A handwriting expert says that

1036
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 1: Claude's handwriting matched the handwriting on the ransom notes, and

1037
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,279
Speaker 1: the most important thing. A country club employee testified that

1038
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 1: he saw Claude follow the keys home from the dance

1039
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: that night.

1040
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 3: Oh yep, so okay, So the father and Kalidas.

1041
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: And one son yep, plead guilty.

1042
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 2: And then Claude is hell to answer. He's going through trial,

1043
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 2: and now you've got some evidence handwriting as well as

1044
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,359
Speaker 2: witness evidence being presented against him.

1045
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:00,879
Speaker 1: Yep, he is found guilty and sentenced thirty five years

1046
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 1: in prison. And he had denied it, denied it, denied it.

1047
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 1: So after he's found guilty, now tell me what you

1048
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 1: think about what he says. After he's found guilty, he

1049
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 1: actually acknowledges his involvement, and he writes newspaper articles where

1050
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 1: he claims that there were two other people, not any

1051
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 1: of the other six other people were involved in the kidnapping.

1052
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 1: He says that Buddy's death was an accident. Of course,

1053
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 1: he's going to say that. He said that Buddy had

1054
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 1: been given laudanum to keep him quiet and he accidentally overdosed.

1055
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 1: And then there were other newspapers that say, well, you know,

1056
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 1: they held a rag over the baby's mouth to muffle

1057
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:37,160
Speaker 1: his cries, which seems a little bit more consistent with

1058
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:40,719
Speaker 1: the autopsy findings. But I don't know laudanum. I don't

1059
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 1: even know would that they would show up in an autopsy.

1060
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 1: I guess if they did toxicology.

1061
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, you know, I'm not sure that they would

1062
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 2: be able to truly detect laudnum. The autopsy results a

1063
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:55,880
Speaker 2: pathologist having a ruling of asphyxia, there is you know,

1064
00:55:55,960 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 2: diagnostic features that the pathologist is seeing. Takes a little

1065
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:04,279
Speaker 2: bit of force, you know, to you know, show how

1066
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 2: the in the inside of your gums, on your mouth,

1067
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:11,440
Speaker 2: on your lips, how how the teeth are leaving, bruising

1068
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:15,800
Speaker 2: are are cutting into you know, the inside surfaces of

1069
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 2: your lips, you know, abrasions around your nose. Depending on

1070
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,880
Speaker 2: how how the asphyxia is occurring, you could even have

1071
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:29,880
Speaker 2: petikia form in the eyes, you know. So it's something

1072
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:33,360
Speaker 2: where I would say this is likely more of a

1073
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:39,359
Speaker 2: an intentional act of homicide through asphyxia than accidental by

1074
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:40,800
Speaker 2: trying to muffle the cries.

1075
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 1: There was a head wound on Buddy, but the medical

1076
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:47,839
Speaker 1: examiner said it's unclear whether it was an intentional head

1077
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:50,360
Speaker 1: wound or one where he was dropped eight feet down

1078
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:52,840
Speaker 1: and banged his head, So I don't know if you

1079
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 1: can read into that at all.

1080
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 2: You know that, well, that would be tough, just because

1081
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:58,799
Speaker 2: Buddy has been, you know, in this water for a

1082
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 2: period of time. So some of what I'd be looking

1083
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 2: for was there hemorrhaging in the wound, indicating that that

1084
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 2: Buddy's heart was still pumping. Well, because Buddy's floating in

1085
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 2: this water, that hemorrhaging, the blood flows, everything else that

1086
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 2: has probably been in essence washed away. So the pathologist is,

1087
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 2: for the most part, you know, he's handicapped, trying to

1088
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 2: make an assessment and when that head wound happened.

1089
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 1: Well, just to wrap up this story, Claude is in

1090
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 1: prison for twenty one years and then he's released and

1091
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:32,480
Speaker 1: he lives twenty four more years in Kansas City as

1092
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:34,560
Speaker 1: a walksmith. Oh wow, ironically.

1093
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:35,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1094
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 1: And then James, Buddy's dad died at the age of

1095
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 1: sixty one in nineteen forty five, so he lived almost

1096
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: thirty years past this. Buddy's mom lived for the rest

1097
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 1: of her life on that house on that street until

1098
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:52,440
Speaker 1: she died in nineteen eighty and of course the family

1099
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 1: then immediately put bars on the windows. Jimmy who we've

1100
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 1: not talked about at all. Who I don't know why

1101
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 1: this is a big deal, but it feels like a

1102
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 1: big deal to me. He went on to do great things.

1103
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 1: This is the three year old who was not kidnapped.

1104
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 1: He went to Princeton, he went to Harvard Law, he

1105
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 1: got a bronze star in the Battle of the Bulge,

1106
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 1: and he became a circuit judge in Springfield. And he

1107
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 1: died in two thousand and five. So I was trying

1108
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 1: to think of what the lesson here was. We don't

1109
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 1: know anything really about the kidnappers, why they if they

1110
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 1: needed the money out of greed, or who was really involved.

1111
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 1: I don't know. For me, is what struck me about

1112
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 1: this story is the just intentional assertion of the press

1113
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:34,919
Speaker 1: and of the people around them that just I don't

1114
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:37,920
Speaker 1: know if they would have gotten Buddy back alive after

1115
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:40,160
Speaker 1: that first one. I think they might have. I mean that,

1116
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 1: you know, if they're trying to keep this kid alive,

1117
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:44,200
Speaker 1: I think their intention is to get the money and

1118
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 1: return him. But I could be wrong.

1119
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I think that that's the hard part.

1120
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 2: Because law enforcement often gets criticized for being very tight

1121
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 2: lipped regarding cases and of course, you have journalists reporters

1122
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:02,960
Speaker 2: who want the details in are working their sources, and

1123
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 2: you know, there is a balance for sure, particularly for

1124
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 2: you know, protecting the case, and it's a fine line

1125
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 2: to walk. And in this case, it seems like the

1126
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 2: journalists were going more after the sensationalistic aspects and nobody

1127
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 2: was putting a lid on them in terms of, hey,

1128
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 2: i'll give you an exclusive, but don't release this detail

1129
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:30,240
Speaker 2: right now, or we're going to have a dead fourteen

1130
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 2: month old. You know, that's the reality.

1131
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 1: Too many people involved, is what it sounds like. Yeah, yeah,

1132
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: what a sad story. That kidnappings I always find to

1133
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 1: be very dramatic, very detailed, lots of interesting plots and instructions.

1134
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:51,080
Speaker 1: But ultimately, I don't think we've had a kidnapping end

1135
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 1: well for us so far. We've had you know, the

1136
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 1: Lindbergh baby, We've had that executive, remember the man who

1137
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 1: was writing with his former secretary and he got dragged

1138
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:03,720
Speaker 1: out of the car. I mean, we've just had several

1139
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 1: of those where things have ended tragically, and unfortunately this

1140
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 1: is what happened in this case too. But I've never

1141
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 1: seen I feel like the press so aggressive in handling this,

1142
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:17,800
Speaker 1: and this is yellow journalism, this is you know, the

1143
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:22,120
Speaker 1: Hurst papers and everything moving forward. So it's an illustration

1144
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 1: of it. And what a tragedy becomes of it.

1145
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:27,760
Speaker 2: No, for sure, you know, Buddy loss his life, and

1146
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 2: I mean the entire family is living with that loss,

1147
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:35,120
Speaker 2: and for what six thousand dollars, which of course you

1148
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 2: know is more money back then. But you know, it

1149
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:42,440
Speaker 2: just shows that there's individuals out there that are willing

1150
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 2: to do the most horrific things to make a buck.

1151
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 1: Well, I need a break from children who have been

1152
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 1: kidnapped and murdered. So we are not going to be

1153
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 1: talking about that next week, thankfully, I can guarantee you that, okay,

1154
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 1: And then we'll have you know, we have Halloween coming up,

1155
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 1: and so I I hope that you are getting your

1156
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 1: knife out and are gonna get ready to carve a

1157
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:06,760
Speaker 1: jack o' lantern that you will not put on the

1158
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 1: front stoop because of the stinkin' deer of yours, and

1159
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:14,680
Speaker 1: you will have a wonderful draw up to the Halloween season.

1160
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1161
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:17,480
Speaker 2: No, I'm actually looking forward to the tricker treaders and

1162
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 2: we'll see if it's a white Halloween or not.

1163
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 3: Here in Colorado.

1164
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 1: H shut up, Paul White Halloween.

1165
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 3: I would love that unless you're out there trick or treating.

1166
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm crossing my fingers for a under ninety

1167
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 1: degree Halloween.

1168
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 3: Oh wow, there's that.

1169
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:34,080
Speaker 1: Yes, Okay, well, I will see you next week.

1170
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 3: All right, sounds good.

1171
01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

1172
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:44,520
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to exactly rightmedia

1173
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 2: dot com slash Buried Bones Sources.

1174
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:49,560
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

1175
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1176
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:56,640
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1177
01:01:56,920 --> 01:01:59,200
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1178
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:01,480
Speaker 1: Our art work is by Vanessa Lilac.

1179
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:05,920
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hart Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

1180
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:09,480
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1181
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 1: Buried Bones Pod.

1182
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1183
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1184
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:17,640
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now

1185
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

1186
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now