1
00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:23,840
Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Imagine going out with

2
00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:28,240
Speaker 1: friends and family. You've waited all this time, You've gone online,

3
00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,240
Speaker 1: you've bought tickets, You've got passes, and the one thing

4
00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:34,800
Speaker 1: that you want to hear or the songs of your

5
00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:40,800
Speaker 1: favorite performer. It all turned a tragedy at astral World

6
00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,400
Speaker 1: as a concert put on by Travis Scott. Day, we're

7
00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,400
Speaker 1: gonna talk about the deaths of ten people. I'm Joseph

8
00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:58,000
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs Back with me

9
00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:02,880
Speaker 1: today is my good friend Jackie Howard, executive producer of

10
00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,800
Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Would Nancy Grace, Jackie, what can you tell

11
00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,000
Speaker 1: us about this tragedy? Ten people died in a stampede

12
00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:14,200
Speaker 1: at the astral World festival in Houston during rapper Travis

13
00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,800
Speaker 1: Scott's concert. And now we do have a ruling by

14
00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:22,120
Speaker 1: the Harris County Medical Examiner on those deaths. Those victims

15
00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,200
Speaker 1: were aged nine to twenty seven years old, and they

16
00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:31,920
Speaker 1: died of compression asphyxia, according to the examiner's report. Another

17
00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,080
Speaker 1: three hundred people were injured. Now, the audience was over

18
00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,240
Speaker 1: fifty thousand people and from what we know, a large

19
00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,720
Speaker 1: majority of those patrons started to storm the stage which

20
00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:46,480
Speaker 1: led to these deaths. I have so many questions, but

21
00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,160
Speaker 1: let's start with the fact, Joe, that this is not

22
00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:53,760
Speaker 1: the first time that something like this has happened, right

23
00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,480
Speaker 1: you are, Jackie, It's not the first time. In the

24
00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,080
Speaker 1: human nature, it seems like we never learned from tragedies.

25
00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,760
Speaker 1: It's it's almost like history repeats itself. And you know,

26
00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,720
Speaker 1: when when I first heard about these deaths and well

27
00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:08,920
Speaker 1: the injuries, you know, because at first we didn't know

28
00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,280
Speaker 1: how many people had died. We didn't know if anybody

29
00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,280
Speaker 1: had died, but we knew that folks had been injured.

30
00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:17,440
Speaker 1: It was it was total anarchy out there. And immediately

31
00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,120
Speaker 1: I began to reflect back to my youth, and you

32
00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,320
Speaker 1: know what happened up in Cincinnati at the infamous Who concert,

33
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:30,799
Speaker 1: where you know, you had many people up there that

34
00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,480
Speaker 1: were injured there, and as well, you had folks that

35
00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,400
Speaker 1: were crushed to death. I think that there were eleven

36
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,720
Speaker 1: deaths at that concert. There were, and I still remember,

37
00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:45,320
Speaker 1: you know, reflecting back over the years, how impactful that

38
00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:47,360
Speaker 1: moment was. And there were a lot of questions that

39
00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,840
Speaker 1: were asked, Uh, you know, why wasn't somebody you know,

40
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,239
Speaker 1: kind of guarding the gate, if you will, and that's

41
00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,639
Speaker 1: not necessarily I don't mean that in a sense of

42
00:02:55,919 --> 00:03:01,079
Speaker 1: a guard. I mean people managing the flow of people

43
00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:03,000
Speaker 1: coming in and out. Because the one thing that we

44
00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,239
Speaker 1: know about human nature, Jackie, is that when people get

45
00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:11,239
Speaker 1: super excited, adrenaline kicks in and people get to press forward.

46
00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,239
Speaker 1: And if you've ever been to a parade or something

47
00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,880
Speaker 1: like that, or maybe you've been at concert for those

48
00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,720
Speaker 1: of you that are listening, and you're super excited about

49
00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:22,560
Speaker 1: going to this thing, and then all of a sudden,

50
00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,560
Speaker 1: you feel yourself being kind of caught up and you

51
00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,919
Speaker 1: don't have any control over what's going on in the

52
00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,560
Speaker 1: space around you. And the WHO concert made me think

53
00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,040
Speaker 1: also about what's referred to as the infamous Hillsborough disaster,

54
00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,440
Speaker 1: which happened over in the UK many years ago at

55
00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,080
Speaker 1: a football match, a soccer match where you had ninety

56
00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,440
Speaker 1: seven just imagine this, jack You had ninety seven people

57
00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:52,280
Speaker 1: that were asphyxiated. They were crushed to death as a

58
00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,400
Speaker 1: result of people pushing forward, and they were in what

59
00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,600
Speaker 1: we're referred to as pins and they you know, they

60
00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:02,280
Speaker 1: kind of had the the area kind of cordroned off

61
00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:04,800
Speaker 1: where people couldn't They couldn't break free, there was no

62
00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:09,360
Speaker 1: point of escape, and so you have this massive humanity,

63
00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:14,480
Speaker 1: like a crushing wave of people that are impacting these

64
00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,400
Speaker 1: individuals that are in this arrested area where they can

65
00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,200
Speaker 1: go no further. How horrible would that be just the

66
00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,200
Speaker 1: thought of that not to be able to break free,

67
00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:25,799
Speaker 1: you don't have anywhere to go. It causes some people

68
00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,600
Speaker 1: to in this case, to jump over railings and people

69
00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,599
Speaker 1: were injured that way, and then if you're at the

70
00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,680
Speaker 1: bottom of the pile, you have no way. It's an

71
00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:41,120
Speaker 1: unsurvivable event. And what Hillsborough has in connection would say,

72
00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:45,040
Speaker 1: for instance, what happened at Asher World is that these

73
00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,040
Speaker 1: were general admission tickets. So it's it's kind of like,

74
00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,599
Speaker 1: you know, you begin to think, you know, first come,

75
00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,080
Speaker 1: first served, you want to press in. There's no assign

76
00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,679
Speaker 1: seating that sort of thing. So at just from Jump Street,

77
00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,039
Speaker 1: you've got you've got chaos. And you remember what I

78
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:06,840
Speaker 1: said about excitement when I covered this case not too

79
00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,240
Speaker 1: many years ago as well, But there was this tragedy

80
00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,600
Speaker 1: that had actually occurred up in Rhode Island and it

81
00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,920
Speaker 1: was the Station nightclub fire. And in that case that

82
00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,119
Speaker 1: was here in the US we had one hundred dead.

83
00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,480
Speaker 1: And you think, well, Morgan, you're talking about a fire. Yeah,

84
00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,760
Speaker 1: I'm talking about a fire. But what happens when people

85
00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,640
Speaker 1: scream fire? Remember the old adage about that it's illegal

86
00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,360
Speaker 1: to scream fire in a movie theater. And one of

87
00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,120
Speaker 1: the rationales behind this is that you get this kind

88
00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,240
Speaker 1: of herd mentality where people are panicking and they're running

89
00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,920
Speaker 1: and you're trampling people. That's why they tell you to

90
00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:43,720
Speaker 1: be ordered. You know, when we're kids, we go through

91
00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:47,240
Speaker 1: fire drills at school. You're ordered in getting out. If not,

92
00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,240
Speaker 1: the weakest in the crowd are gonna be left behind

93
00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:52,840
Speaker 1: and crushed. So and you know, in the case in

94
00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,600
Speaker 1: Rhode Island, yeah, there were people that died as a

95
00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,880
Speaker 1: result of, say, for instance, smoke annihilation, But many of

96
00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,120
Speaker 1: these people died as result of being crushed and being

97
00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:06,080
Speaker 1: trapped and not having a point of escapement in this

98
00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,600
Speaker 1: particular case, and of course it leads to tragedy. Jackie.

99
00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:15,760
Speaker 1: Let's talk specifics, Joe about what literally happened. You have

100
00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,800
Speaker 1: a throng of people, fifty thousand that we know of.

101
00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,320
Speaker 1: Now I'm not saying all fifty thousand took part in

102
00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:24,040
Speaker 1: this but we have a lot of people that are

103
00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:28,000
Speaker 1: wanting to watch and be close to the stage. So

104
00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:34,040
Speaker 1: what exactly happened? The crowd started pushing forward. And you know,

105
00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,400
Speaker 1: I'm from the South as well. You say, that's like

106
00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,560
Speaker 1: putting fifty pounds of mud in a five pound sack. Yeah, you,

107
00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,599
Speaker 1: And it is. It is all about volume, isn't it.

108
00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,160
Speaker 1: And that's what that old expression goes to, Jackie. There's

109
00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:50,200
Speaker 1: there's only so much that a particular area can contain

110
00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,960
Speaker 1: without their becoming stressors that are exhibited, you know. And

111
00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,720
Speaker 1: in this case, you mentioned the stage, and the stage

112
00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,840
Speaker 1: is kind of a blocking area, if you will, and

113
00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,160
Speaker 1: there's only one area to kind of escape to, and

114
00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:08,080
Speaker 1: that gets that becomes progressively more and more narrow as

115
00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,360
Speaker 1: people panic because they're all shooting for that area. And

116
00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,040
Speaker 1: in this case, people started pushing forward toward the stage.

117
00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,280
Speaker 1: And generally, if folks have ever been to a general

118
00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:23,760
Speaker 1: emission concert, there's a barricade that kind of separates the stage,

119
00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,120
Speaker 1: and you'll have like security people that are in between

120
00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,680
Speaker 1: the stage and the barricade, and the barricade separates the

121
00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,400
Speaker 1: people from the stage, and folks began to press forward.

122
00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,400
Speaker 1: I think that one of the questions that people had

123
00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,720
Speaker 1: is that why was there not more of an awareness

124
00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,880
Speaker 1: on the part of Travis Scott and those individuals that

125
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:47,280
Speaker 1: are performing and that are providing the entertainment and folks

126
00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:49,680
Speaker 1: are you know, they're in a mad rush? And I

127
00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,679
Speaker 1: would assume that maybe if you're up on the stage

128
00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,280
Speaker 1: and you're in a fevered moment and people are getting excited,

129
00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,760
Speaker 1: it's probably kind of hard to interpret it as being

130
00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,560
Speaker 1: in anything other than enthusiasm maybe, And of course, in

131
00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,880
Speaker 1: this particular case, because you've got this crushing event and

132
00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:14,000
Speaker 1: that's what this winds up being a pressure event, then

133
00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:18,000
Speaker 1: it's hard to delineate that, particularly from a great distance,

134
00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,960
Speaker 1: you know, where you're elevated above the crowd, you're engaging,

135
00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,040
Speaker 1: you're entertaining, and this sort of thing. So there were

136
00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,000
Speaker 1: a lot of things that kind of fell apart, you know,

137
00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,720
Speaker 1: security fell apart. I think folks that were panicking they

138
00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:33,840
Speaker 1: were not aware of the individuals that around them. All

139
00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,120
Speaker 1: they could think of was I need to get the safety.

140
00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,719
Speaker 1: And that's that's kind of a promptmal response, isn't it.

141
00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,840
Speaker 1: And so at the end, though you have all of

142
00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:47,560
Speaker 1: these individuals that are heavily compressed and in a confined area,

143
00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,920
Speaker 1: and this comes down to the density of the crowd.

144
00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,960
Speaker 1: And when people that study these sorts of things relative

145
00:08:56,040 --> 00:09:00,840
Speaker 1: to movement of humanity, there's actually folks don't believe this,

146
00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,920
Speaker 1: but there are actually areas in academia where people study

147
00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:10,400
Speaker 1: u population and population at venues like this. They make

148
00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,800
Speaker 1: their entire career off of this, and unfortunately, I think

149
00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:15,880
Speaker 1: that a lot of the people that study these things

150
00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,240
Speaker 1: in academia that data doesn't necessarily make it down to

151
00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:23,040
Speaker 1: the individuals that have their let's say, their their their

152
00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:27,480
Speaker 1: hand on the control leavers here, and that's what wound

153
00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:31,000
Speaker 1: up happening. It was poorly managed. There wasn't an awareness

154
00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:33,480
Speaker 1: for those that might be weaker in the crowd, and

155
00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,520
Speaker 1: there certainly wasn't awareness of how much danger existed in

156
00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:58,520
Speaker 1: this environment. Jackie. I don't know about you, but by

157
00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,719
Speaker 1: nature I'm I'm a photic person. I wouldn't have done

158
00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,559
Speaker 1: too good, you know, in the military on a submarine.

159
00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,520
Speaker 1: And I think about these people in this environment and

160
00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,600
Speaker 1: how panicked they must have been. You know, you begin

161
00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,840
Speaker 1: to feel pressure on you. Maybe there's even this fear

162
00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,480
Speaker 1: that you can't breathe that you can't escape. Can you

163
00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,360
Speaker 1: imagine how horrible that is? I can't imagine how horrible

164
00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,240
Speaker 1: that is, and honestly I don't want to. Because what

165
00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,520
Speaker 1: we know that happened is as the crowd of fifty

166
00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,520
Speaker 1: thousand people started to surge toward the stage, at some

167
00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:37,040
Speaker 1: point these individuals were caught. They were trapped and himmed

168
00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,360
Speaker 1: in by the barricades set up to protect the performers

169
00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,360
Speaker 1: on the stage. There were barricades on three sides, so

170
00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:48,199
Speaker 1: these victims were caught and unable, as you were mentioning earlier,

171
00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,000
Speaker 1: to escape, they could not get out. We know that

172
00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,400
Speaker 1: some of the victims fell on the ground and were

173
00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,600
Speaker 1: trampled as the crowd surged forward. So we know, according

174
00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:03,119
Speaker 1: to the medical examiners or that these individuals were essentially

175
00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:09,040
Speaker 1: crushed to death in the crowd compression asphyxia. So explain

176
00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:13,680
Speaker 1: to me what compression asphyxia is specifically, and then we

177
00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,560
Speaker 1: can go from there. Joe, Yeah, Jackie, you know, we

178
00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,559
Speaker 1: hear the term asphyxia all the time in death investigation,

179
00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,760
Speaker 1: and as certainly we've learned over this past year when

180
00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,080
Speaker 1: cases like Gabby Potito in other cases, we know that

181
00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:28,599
Speaker 1: it has something to do with a lack of oxygen,

182
00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,160
Speaker 1: doesn't it anytime you hear this term asphyxia and in

183
00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:38,040
Speaker 1: compression asphyxia specifically, it's different than say, things like a

184
00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,760
Speaker 1: choking or literature strangulation of hanging, or even a say,

185
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,880
Speaker 1: for instance, a smothering, even though there are some elements

186
00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,920
Speaker 1: that are similar. But with compression, we have to think

187
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:54,120
Speaker 1: about two areas. First off, the chest, all right, and

188
00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:58,719
Speaker 1: then we have to think about the neck. So just imagine,

189
00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,680
Speaker 1: if you will, you're in a very kind of tight,

190
00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:11,240
Speaker 1: constricted space where individuals are pressing on you and are inhibiting, uh,

191
00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,760
Speaker 1: the your ability for your chest to rise and fall.

192
00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:16,839
Speaker 1: Remember that's one of the things that we look for

193
00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:22,599
Speaker 1: in depth investigation, well specifically in emergency medicine. One of

194
00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,120
Speaker 1: the questions they'll ask is their chest rising and falling.

195
00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:30,080
Speaker 1: What that means is are they inhalating and exhalating air? Okay?

196
00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:34,920
Speaker 1: And so absent that ability to inhalate and exhalate, that

197
00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,720
Speaker 1: means that you're you're not taking in oxygen all right,

198
00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,440
Speaker 1: Your lungs are not taking it in, and of course

199
00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,760
Speaker 1: it has to process it. And then of course that

200
00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,640
Speaker 1: that oxygen rich blood that's that's transported. You know, the

201
00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:51,440
Speaker 1: oxygen's transported via the hemoglobe, and it keeps us pumping,

202
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,559
Speaker 1: doesn't It keeps us going. So you have this event

203
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:59,400
Speaker 1: where this oxygen supply is cut off. So if you're

204
00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:03,720
Speaker 1: if you can expand your chest and breathe in air,

205
00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,200
Speaker 1: you're in trouble. Now. The other area where compression asphyxia

206
00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,719
Speaker 1: takes place, and something that has to be considered is

207
00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,400
Speaker 1: a compression of the neck. Again, an area we've talked

208
00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:19,600
Speaker 1: about where you have a pressure that is being applied

209
00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:25,400
Speaker 1: to the neck externally, externally and so that it's it's

210
00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,920
Speaker 1: impacting or squeezing down on the corroated vessels. These are

211
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,160
Speaker 1: the two major vessels that run up the neck and

212
00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,640
Speaker 1: into the brain and supply the brain directly with oxygen.

213
00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:42,040
Speaker 1: And this is what happens. When the oxygen to the

214
00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:47,120
Speaker 1: brain is cut off, if you will, or is diminished.

215
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,440
Speaker 1: This results in what in a condition that's referred to

216
00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:55,600
Speaker 1: as a noxia. Individuals become an oxic and they cannot

217
00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,680
Speaker 1: they don't have sufficient air supply or oxygen to the

218
00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,840
Speaker 1: brain so that the brain can function. Remember, and I

219
00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:08,080
Speaker 1: talk about this quite a bit, the brain is essentially

220
00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,839
Speaker 1: the most vascular organ in the body, and what that

221
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,360
Speaker 1: means is that it requires the greatest amount of blood

222
00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,360
Speaker 1: flow is certainly oxygenated blood, in order to supply it

223
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,960
Speaker 1: with energy so that it can process everything that goes

224
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,160
Speaker 1: on in our body, whether it's it's motor movement, you know,

225
00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,360
Speaker 1: where we're moving around, we're blinking our eyes and all

226
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:31,000
Speaker 1: that stuff, or in the autonomic sense auto meaning self

227
00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,040
Speaker 1: where it's telling our heart to beat, it's telling us

228
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,160
Speaker 1: to breathe, all these other functions that we don't have

229
00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,680
Speaker 1: to think about that just kind of happen. That's an

230
00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,760
Speaker 1: autonomic nervous system. So all of that oxygen and that

231
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:48,160
Speaker 1: energy that's that's that derives from oxygenated blood is essentially

232
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,360
Speaker 1: cut off at that moment time, and it can lead

233
00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:58,760
Speaker 1: to catastrophic outcomes. You'll have individuals that may very well,

234
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,320
Speaker 1: at a very p i'm a level, still be technically alive,

235
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,200
Speaker 1: but they go into a comatose state as a result

236
00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,720
Speaker 1: of this oxygen deprivation, if you will. And so in

237
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,400
Speaker 1: this case, there were several people that were taken to

238
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:16,160
Speaker 1: the hospital that never regain consciousness, and that's because they

239
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,600
Speaker 1: had their oxygen supply that was removed from them. Some

240
00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:21,400
Speaker 1: of these people had to be placed on event just

241
00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,600
Speaker 1: to keep them alive, to see if they would if

242
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,680
Speaker 1: they would survive, and of course, as we know, it

243
00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:31,680
Speaker 1: didn't happen. Joe, how much pressure does it take to

244
00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,840
Speaker 1: keep you from being able to expand your lungs? We

245
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,920
Speaker 1: know that some of these victims were as young as nine,

246
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,680
Speaker 1: so obviously it's going to be different I would imagine

247
00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,840
Speaker 1: for a child as it would be for an adult.

248
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,600
Speaker 1: How much pressure does it take to keep you from

249
00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,200
Speaker 1: expanding your lungs? Yeah, that's an excellent question, and it's

250
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,520
Speaker 1: going to be variable dependent upon the person. And say,

251
00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,400
Speaker 1: it's going to be dependent upon their structure, if you

252
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,720
Speaker 1: will give me a little latitude here, it's going to

253
00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,640
Speaker 1: be depended upon the architectural structure of their body. You

254
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,560
Speaker 1: know how robust they are, you know how muscular they are?

255
00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:14,400
Speaker 1: What kind of what kind of medical condition are lack thereof?

256
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:16,960
Speaker 1: Do they have any Are they predisposed to any kind

257
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:21,200
Speaker 1: of medical problems like long problems or heart problems, anything

258
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:25,600
Speaker 1: that might inhibit their ability to function at a normal level.

259
00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,640
Speaker 1: So you begin to impact them with weight. And let

260
00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,320
Speaker 1: me give you an idea as to what happened as

261
00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:37,760
Speaker 1: these individuals were essentially being I don't necessarily like the

262
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,720
Speaker 1: term crushed because it implies, you know, like you're like

263
00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,280
Speaker 1: you're literally stepping on something to crush it. And I'm

264
00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,640
Speaker 1: sure that there were blunt force trauma injuries that could

265
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,800
Speaker 1: be associated with stepping on and kind of crushing, if

266
00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,880
Speaker 1: you will. But this is compression where you're pressing down

267
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,760
Speaker 1: tighter and tighter and tighter. So let's just say, for instance,

268
00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,800
Speaker 1: one individual is laying on the ground and that's firm surface.

269
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,480
Speaker 1: We have to assume that the ground out there was

270
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:08,800
Speaker 1: probably an asphalt or concrete surface. And as bodies begin

271
00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,560
Speaker 1: to pile on top of this individual, the individual if

272
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,160
Speaker 1: they weigh say, for instance, I don't know, one hundred

273
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,040
Speaker 1: and forty pounds, Let's say this little child, the child

274
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,639
Speaker 1: was only nine. That child is not going to weigh certainly,

275
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,760
Speaker 1: it's not going to weigh in excess of you know,

276
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,160
Speaker 1: eighty to ninety pounds. I would think at the top end.

277
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,440
Speaker 1: Then you have let's say, for instance, one hundred and

278
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,439
Speaker 1: seventy five pound man trips and falls on top of

279
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,080
Speaker 1: that child, and then another one hundred and seventy five

280
00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,320
Speaker 1: pound man, and maybe you throw in somebody that weighs

281
00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,679
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty pounds, and all the while that

282
00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,200
Speaker 1: child is being pressed down further and further and further,

283
00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:49,600
Speaker 1: and his little body cannot compensate, It can't fight against

284
00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,800
Speaker 1: the weight that is being applied to his body and

285
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:56,359
Speaker 1: his body's need to get that chest expanded so he

286
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,560
Speaker 1: can breathe the air in. So the more weight you

287
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,640
Speaker 1: have a the more difficult it's going to become. Now,

288
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,720
Speaker 1: I do know that you know I'd mentioned medical conditions.

289
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,200
Speaker 1: There was one individual in this group of ten where

290
00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:14,919
Speaker 1: compression asphyxia was made note of that he did, in

291
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,080
Speaker 1: fact have drugs on board. I think that the individual

292
00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,240
Speaker 1: had t HC on board. He also had methamphetamine and

293
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:26,520
Speaker 1: these sorts of things. So you begin to to factor

294
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:31,280
Speaker 1: that into that individual's ability to breathe in this highly

295
00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:37,040
Speaker 1: kind of antagonistic environment. That's going to compromise their their

296
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:41,000
Speaker 1: body even further. Hold on, Joe, Yeah, what do you

297
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,879
Speaker 1: mean by that? You're saying it's going to compromise their ability.

298
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:50,280
Speaker 1: You're saying that just even if it's marijuana, let's say

299
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:54,760
Speaker 1: it's going to take you to what I mean, is

300
00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,680
Speaker 1: it going to It's not going to lower your oxygen capacity,

301
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,400
Speaker 1: But how is it going to impede breathing? Well, yeah,

302
00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:03,880
Speaker 1: I mean it could be marijuana or alcohol or any

303
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,520
Speaker 1: number of things, but it's going to impair your ability

304
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,560
Speaker 1: your response time for instance, it's going to slow your

305
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,720
Speaker 1: breathing anyway. So you're going to be compromised in that sense.

306
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,199
Speaker 1: And this individual, I don't know anything about his medical history,

307
00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,800
Speaker 1: but if he has these drugs on board, I think

308
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,280
Speaker 1: that scientifically you have to kind of sit back and

309
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,040
Speaker 1: scratch your head and say, well, if he's got this

310
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,080
Speaker 1: history at that moment time where he has these drugs

311
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,560
Speaker 1: on board, how long has he been engaged in the

312
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:38,840
Speaker 1: behavior utilizing things like methamphetamine, which can have dire respiratory

313
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,359
Speaker 1: outcomes just in and of itself, and certainly it can

314
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,640
Speaker 1: lead to things like hypertension, increase blood pressure, that sort

315
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 1: of thing, and that's never a good good situation to

316
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,680
Speaker 1: be in, particularly when you're panicked and your shallow breathing

317
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:53,600
Speaker 1: and all of these things that are going on. So

318
00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,919
Speaker 1: it's a recipe completely for disaster. So if you have

319
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,840
Speaker 1: a clear mind and you don't have any kind of

320
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,399
Speaker 1: drugs on board, it's still gonna be tough, but can

321
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,360
Speaker 1: you imagine how further exacerbated this condition could be as

322
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,160
Speaker 1: a result of having something that would put you into

323
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:32,680
Speaker 1: an altered mental status. You know, you think about going

324
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:34,560
Speaker 1: to a concert. I can't tell you over the course

325
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,440
Speaker 1: of my life how many I've been to, particularly outdoor concerts.

326
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 1: I love them. You don't have this expectation that when

327
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:45,159
Speaker 1: you go, your life is going to come come to

328
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,200
Speaker 1: an end completely surrounded by strangers, and that there will

329
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,880
Speaker 1: be other people to your left and to your right

330
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,159
Speaker 1: that are dying as well. What a horrible way to go,

331
00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:59,200
Speaker 1: Jackie Joe. We know that these individuals night of compression asphyxia.

332
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 1: We also know that some individuals fell to the ground

333
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 1: and were trampled. As you were saying earlier, is there

334
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,680
Speaker 1: a difference in that kind of a knee injury? Were

335
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 1: the people if they died on the ground, were they

336
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 1: trampled or could they not breathe? Well, it's it's going

337
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,439
Speaker 1: to be a combination. I think that that when you

338
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:25,919
Speaker 1: begin to traumatize individuals by trampling them, and trampling, to me,

339
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:31,280
Speaker 1: implies not so much positional or compressionist fix the event

340
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,800
Speaker 1: that goes to blunt force trauma. All right, and you know,

341
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace and I have covered cases over the years

342
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:43,760
Speaker 1: that are quite brutal where individuals have been literally stomped

343
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 1: to death. Okay, that's blunt force trauma. Now, these individuals

344
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,320
Speaker 1: may very well, and again I haven't seen the autopsy reports,

345
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 1: but in an event like this, you're going to have

346
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,560
Speaker 1: blunt force trauma that can be identified on that And

347
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,200
Speaker 1: what does that mean, Well, you could very well have

348
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,159
Speaker 1: large contusions. And some of these contusions, and this is

349
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 1: kind of haunting, Jackie, some of these contusions will actually

350
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 1: have the appearance of a footprint. You can actually see

351
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,680
Speaker 1: a shoe tread that's left behind as a result of this,

352
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,159
Speaker 1: and that's just kind of a pattern injury, which is

353
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,280
Speaker 1: something that we look for in forensics all the time.

354
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,120
Speaker 1: You can have pattern injury, say, for instance, if an

355
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 1: individual is stomped on the back back side of their leg.

356
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 1: Let's say they're laying face down, you stomp on them

357
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,440
Speaker 1: on the back side of their leg as you're running away.

358
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,879
Speaker 1: Your footprint might be say the back of their thigh,

359
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,159
Speaker 1: but on the front of their thigh, there's also going

360
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 1: to be an evidence of an abraided area that comes

361
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,359
Speaker 1: from the underlying surface. So that's happening as a result

362
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,360
Speaker 1: of this compression that's taking place, but it's quickly removed.

363
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 1: You can have people that say, for instance, are not

364
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 1: senseless because maybe the top of their head has been

365
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 1: stepped on, they're knocked unconscious, and well, now they're in

366
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 1: a compromised position where they don't have a level of

367
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 1: consciousness but their body still requires oxygen and they don't

368
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,399
Speaker 1: have the ability to move and get up out of

369
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 1: that area because now they don't have any sense about

370
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,120
Speaker 1: them to do this. That that primal thing has kind

371
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: of left them at this point, because that that primal

372
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,440
Speaker 1: response to survival is left because they're unconscious, but yet

373
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 1: you still have to breathe, and all the while people

374
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 1: are piling on top of them, and that really paints

375
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:30,400
Speaker 1: this horrific picture. And you know, Jackie, one of the

376
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,199
Speaker 1: one of the things that you know, it kind of

377
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,640
Speaker 1: reflects back in my mind and I think about what

378
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 1: they're faced with here in this case and making these

379
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 1: diagnosis and what you know, what the road looks like

380
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:46,639
Speaker 1: going forward. First off, there is a level of horror

381
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 1: to these desks that I don't think that many people

382
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 1: can comprehend if you've never been in this kind of circumstance,

383
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 1: and you know, you hear when you're around lawyers a lot,

384
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 1: uh like I am, you know, and particularly in the

385
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 1: civil context when you're talking about civil litigation as post

386
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 1: criminal litigation. One of the things that one of the

387
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 1: measures that they do in civil law, remember, you don't

388
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,639
Speaker 1: look for guilt or innocence in our guilt or not

389
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 1: guilty in civil law, you look for damage is relative

390
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 1: to a propensity of evidence. That means, how much evidence

391
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 1: do you have that demonstrates what you're trying to trying

392
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: to prove. They used to term pain and suffering quite

393
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 1: a bit, and I don't know that there are many

394
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 1: things that could surpass that. At this level where you

395
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,200
Speaker 1: have this much pain and suffering that's inflicted on people

396
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,159
Speaker 1: because it's a torturous way to die. You have an

397
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,360
Speaker 1: awareness many of these people may have that they don't

398
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 1: have an ability to breathe and there's no way to escape.

399
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 1: Can you imagine being this panicked in this environment? And

400
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 1: interestingly enough, when you look at the history of compression asphyxia,

401
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,360
Speaker 1: and to give you an idea how far back goes

402
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 1: in human history, there have been a number of crushing

403
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 1: events that go hundreds of years back, you know, where

404
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: people have panicked and run run over. But a lot

405
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 1: of people don't realize that that compression asphyxia has actually

406
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: been used as a method of execution, and famously, famously

407
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,360
Speaker 1: was actually utilized as a method of execution during the

408
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: Salem witch trials. There was one fellow that had stated,

409
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: and it's actually included in Arthur Miller's play The Crucible,

410
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: and this is documented. The accused this guy being a witch,

411
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 1: and they put him between two boards and began to

412
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: stack weight on him and until he would confess. And

413
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: the guy never confessed. And the only thing he ever said, Jackie,

414
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: you know what he said, because he was not going

415
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: to confess. He's a more weight, more weight, and they

416
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 1: would put more and more stones on top of his

417
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: body until he finally succumbed. And that's a very slow

418
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: form of compression asphyxia. It's torturous. You said, it's a

419
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 1: slow form, Joe. How long would it take for you

420
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:06,160
Speaker 1: to die due to compression asphyxia? How long did these

421
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 1: victims suffer? I think that this is the real horrific

422
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 1: part of it, and I have to go back to

423
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: an example of say specific applied pressure. When you're talking

424
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: about again in the case of Cabby Potito, where you're

425
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 1: talking about where she was throttled, where she had had

426
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: hands wrapped around her throat, and that is sustained pressure.

427
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 1: Her death would have probably have been a bit quicker

428
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: because with this kind of compression asphyxia, you might get

429
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: a pause in there where the weight shifts. And this

430
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 1: is a very dynamic environment because you've got people that

431
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 1: are piling on top of one another and they're rolling

432
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: about and this sort of thing. So you might have

433
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: an opportunity in there where you're being compressed and all

434
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: of a sudden the weight shifts, you can catch your

435
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 1: breath again, but then the weight shifts back, and this

436
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 1: could take I don't know, it could potentially take ten

437
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 1: minutes for some of these people to have died. And

438
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: I think that that goes to how torturous and laborious

439
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: this event would have been. And that's because it's you

440
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: have a shifting of weight that's going on because of

441
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: the dynamics of the environment. Remember, this is a frenzied crowd.

442
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: People are running about, people are screaming, people are rolling about.

443
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 1: It's not like there's constant pressure being applied specifically to

444
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 1: them for the entire duration until all life is gone.

445
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: So it's very dynamic, and I think that's going to

446
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 1: be very difficult for the medical examiner if they have

447
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: to get on the stand in a case like this

448
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: to actually give a specific measure of I'm Joseph Scott

449
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body backs.