Speaker 1: On the bed Cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women and um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and
Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in
Speaker 1: best start changing it with the Bell Cast. Hey, Caitlin, Yeah, Jamie,
Speaker 1: thanks for meeting me up on this roof. You look cold.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I'm so cold. Hey, can I bomb
Speaker 1: a smoke? Yeah? I'm a known smoker, and I'm also
Speaker 1: wearing a gigantic fur as unethically sourced as a humanly
Speaker 1: could fine? Would you like to get would you like
Speaker 1: to get on in? Yeah? I'm so chilly. Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: now that you're here, I have an idea. It's called
Speaker 1: a podcast, and we're gonna make a funk load of money.
Speaker 1: Are you in? I mean, famously podcasters make a hundred
Speaker 1: thousand dollars per weekend. So yeah, I'm in. In two
Speaker 1: thousand and seven, if you're a podcaster, the money podcasters
Speaker 1: were pulling prerecession. It's what they don't want you to know.
Speaker 1: We'll see how We'll see how this goes. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's what could possibly happen. We'll definitely be speaking in
Speaker 1: five years. Yeah, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna betray
Speaker 1: our trust and take a deal when we both get
Speaker 1: arrested after having an illegal podcast. And I really hope
Speaker 1: that one of those exists. I don't know what you
Speaker 1: would need to be do, I mean, I'm not sure anyways,
Speaker 1: I feel I feel confident about that. Intro. Welcome, Welcome
Speaker 1: to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus. My
Speaker 1: name is Caitlin Darante, and this is our show where
Speaker 1: we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the
Speaker 1: Bechdel Tests simply as a jumping off point to initiate
Speaker 1: a larger conversation. Jamie, what is the Bechdel test? Though? Okay? So,
Speaker 1: the Bechtel test is a media metric invented by queer
Speaker 1: cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test, that
Speaker 1: requires the following. There must be for our purposes. There's
Speaker 1: different versions of it. This is our version. For our purposes.
Speaker 1: We require that there be two named characters of a
Speaker 1: marginalized gender that talk to each other about something other
Speaker 1: than a man for two lines of dialogue. And it
Speaker 1: has to be a recent update. It has to be
Speaker 1: a meaningful exchange. We can't define what that is, but
Speaker 1: you know it when you hear it. Uh. And fortunately
Speaker 1: this is not a movie where I think we will
Speaker 1: struggle to find them, so we won't need to really
Speaker 1: split hairs on it this week, because this week we're
Speaker 1: covering I think one of our more popular requests ever.
Speaker 1: We've been getting a ton of requests for this movie
Speaker 1: since it came out, before it came out, maybe even
Speaker 1: before the trailer dropped, basically, and we were kind of
Speaker 1: waiting for the perfect guest to come along and guess what,
Speaker 1: she's here, baby, it happened. It's the Hustlers episode and
Speaker 1: our guest today she is a writer, performer, and activist.
Speaker 1: It's Susie q Wo. Hi, Louise, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for being here. Thank you so much for a having
Speaker 1: this podcast super duper important, um and be like doing
Speaker 1: this movie super duper important, and see having me thank you,
Speaker 1: this is the most important part. We're so excited to
Speaker 1: have you on the show and to talk about this
Speaker 1: movie the same. I have been hearing about this movie
Speaker 1: and thinking about this movie since long before it was
Speaker 1: ever even released, let alone I actually ever been watched it,
Speaker 1: which was only this week, So thank you for giving
Speaker 1: me the final excuse to like, you know, I am
Speaker 1: of the adult industry. I was doing adult work in
Speaker 1: strip clubs around the same time that this movie happened.
Speaker 1: Um So, I was really reluctant to watch it. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, yeah, you never know. Yeah, So, I'm
Speaker 1: so you had only just seen this very recently, very recently.
Speaker 1: Yeah wow, what were You're just kind of like initial thoughts. So, okay,
Speaker 1: I have a relationship with it. I feel like every
Speaker 1: person doing adult entertainment during this time has a relationship
Speaker 1: with this movie somehow. Like, um, so I opened for
Speaker 1: jack Is stripper a k. Jacqueline Francis a k a. Jackie,
Speaker 1: the cute blonde who's Jennifer Lopez is grabs her boobs, which,
Speaker 1: by the way, I can't believe Jacqueline was not shouting
Speaker 1: that from the rooftops as soon as it happened until
Speaker 1: for the rest of her life. I'm like, why isn't
Speaker 1: that like the main part of your brand? Now? I
Speaker 1: don't understand. Maybe she had to like sign a boob
Speaker 1: grabbing n DA is the kind of famous that I'm like,
Speaker 1: there could be an n D A for anything. Sure,
Speaker 1: so I knew that Jack was in aolved in the
Speaker 1: process of making this film, I did not realize she
Speaker 1: had as much screen time as she did, which was
Speaker 1: really freaking cool. It's just in and of itself, that
Speaker 1: movie existing and what happened to get it made, and
Speaker 1: the fact that real sex workers were involved and real
Speaker 1: strippers were involved in the making of this movie is important.
Speaker 1: And I was worried that that sort of policy and
Speaker 1: procedural element of which I am very into all of
Speaker 1: those things, particularly as an activist, would somehow not translate
Speaker 1: to a good movie that I was that I was
Speaker 1: stoked to watch, I was. I was worried, but it
Speaker 1: sure did. It sure did to me. Yeah, to me,
Speaker 1: this felt like the dirty dancing for adult entertainers, Like
Speaker 1: the It was like, it's not a coming of age story.
Speaker 1: It is that, but it's it's more than that. It's
Speaker 1: a love story about love that is so meaningful and
Speaker 1: so unspeakable that like, I can't even like, unless we
Speaker 1: had this movie to be to talk about and look at,
Speaker 1: I feel like I would not be able to communicate
Speaker 1: the type of relationship between women that the adult industry
Speaker 1: can create. And that's what this movie is about. I think, Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you liked it. Yeah, Jamie, what's your
Speaker 1: relationship with it? I've seen this movie a couple of times.
Speaker 1: I was really really excited for it to come out
Speaker 1: for a lot of reasons. I mean, because it's the
Speaker 1: subject matter is not something you get to see addressed
Speaker 1: in depth, much less in like I don't know. I mean,
Speaker 1: I remember seeing the trailer for this movie and being like,
Speaker 1: this movie is going to be like heavy, but it's
Speaker 1: gonna be a fucking blast too. And I really like
Speaker 1: movies that address class and inequality and in a way
Speaker 1: that doesn't feel like they're bashing you over the head
Speaker 1: with it, and also in a way that isn't just
Speaker 1: like and here are the white guys that made the
Speaker 1: whoopsie Like it's it's so cool to see. I don't
Speaker 1: think I've ever seen a movie about this period of
Speaker 1: time that focused on first of all, women, much less
Speaker 1: New York strippers Like it's such it just takes every
Speaker 1: box for me. And I was really excited that it
Speaker 1: was written and directed by Lorraine Scafaria too, because she's
Speaker 1: so talented and she's been at it forever and um,
Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk about the production of this movie
Speaker 1: because she really had to fight to be able to
Speaker 1: even they wanted Martin Scorsese torect direct this movie, like
Speaker 1: all this ship that I'm just this is the kind
Speaker 1: of movie where you're like, it's I'm just so happy
Speaker 1: that it got made, and it seems like it got
Speaker 1: made the way that the creators and the consultants wanted
Speaker 1: it to be. So I'm stoked. It was such a
Speaker 1: pleasure to rewatch it. What about you, Caitlin, Yeah, I've
Speaker 1: seen it a couple of times. On two I saw
Speaker 1: it in theaters with my AMC a list thing that
Speaker 1: is not a sponsor of our show, but it might
Speaker 1: as well be. They really should give us three memberships
Speaker 1: they you hear that, Mr AMC. Anyway, AMC is a
Speaker 1: girl boss. It's miss ms ms AMC, Abigail Mallory Christian
Speaker 1: is her name, and she and she's her nightmare. It's
Speaker 1: a metaphor um. So, yeah, I saw in theaters and
Speaker 1: then I've watched We watched it twice to prep for
Speaker 1: this episode, and I also can't wait to watch it again,
Speaker 1: Like this is going to be in my rotation. It's
Speaker 1: an instant classic, like instant classic, it's so entertaining, it's
Speaker 1: so watchable. The soundtrack is soundtrack. Just I woke up
Speaker 1: with all of those songs in my head this morning,
Speaker 1: like and I loved how of the time it was,
Speaker 1: even though those are like very recent oldies like the
Speaker 1: Lord the Lord album and just like the two back
Speaker 1: to back Frankie Valley song by the way, I think
Speaker 1: he Valley is like one of the first concerts like
Speaker 1: in real life of freaking love that moment. But yeah,
Speaker 1: the soundtrack is lit. It's so good. I feel like
Speaker 1: it's I don't know, this movie is doing so much right,
Speaker 1: but I feel like it's so hard to make a
Speaker 1: period piece where it doesn't feel like either it's it's
Speaker 1: either like kind of unclear when the movie is taking place,
Speaker 1: or it's so clear that it feels condescending, where I'm like,
Speaker 1: I understand what was, But like with this movie, it's
Speaker 1: it's like the recent past, but I feel like they do.
Speaker 1: Like I felt like the most ham fisted thing out
Speaker 1: of everything, which I still liked, was like panning to
Speaker 1: like the first season of Keeping Up with the Kardashians, Like, okay,
Speaker 1: get it, but that places us very specifically, not only
Speaker 1: in the place, but also in our understanding of sex
Speaker 1: work at the time, and our understanding of like performance
Speaker 1: and reality TV, and like we didn't have only fans yet,
Speaker 1: we didn't have like this, but we did have Kardashians,
Speaker 1: and that honestly change things. I really liked what what
Speaker 1: the creators of this movie, and I'm guessing I guess
Speaker 1: primarily Lorraine Scafaria chose to tell us where we are
Speaker 1: and what and when it is. I thought it was
Speaker 1: like just so many cold choices. Yeah, for sure. All right, Well,
Speaker 1: should I dive into the recap and we'll go from there?
Speaker 1: Yea and Susie feel free to jump in whenever. Alright,
Speaker 1: so we open. It's two thousand seven. We meet Dorothy
Speaker 1: a k A. Destiny. That's Constance Wu. She is a
Speaker 1: stripper at a club called Moves in New York City.
Speaker 1: Ever heard of it? She's new there. We see her
Speaker 1: on a typical night. Um she's giving some private dances.
Speaker 1: She is not making as much money as she had hoped,
Speaker 1: especially because she has to hand over a lot of
Speaker 1: her earnings to various men who work at the club.
Speaker 1: We see a little bit of her home life. She
Speaker 1: takes care of her grandmother. One night at the club Ramona,
Speaker 1: that is, Jennifer Lopez is dancing. She's very very good.
Speaker 1: Wait wait, we have to say what she's dancing too.
Speaker 1: She's dancing to Criminal by Fiona Apple. It's one of
Speaker 1: my favorite scenes in the movie. It's also, may I say,
Speaker 1: don't ever choose that song as your stage song unless
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, two pm on an afternoon in
Speaker 1: Portland and you're like doing your thing and you've got
Speaker 1: But like that, there were the two things about the
Speaker 1: movie that like we're like cringe e to me, but
Speaker 1: not enough to be mad in any way. It's just
Speaker 1: like it's like your mom who's really trying very hard
Speaker 1: to accept you as you are and be into your
Speaker 1: new life. Like that is the performance that Jennifer Lopez
Speaker 1: gives us as Ramona, right, Like she's like her the
Speaker 1: pole trick sequence and like everything she does is technically perfect,
Speaker 1: and like like not, I'm so curious to hear what
Speaker 1: because to me, to me, no, I mean I'm curious.
Speaker 1: I mean it's like, yeah, the fun the funeral Apple
Speaker 1: Tics was like this might just be a song that
Speaker 1: the director likes, but and I also really like as
Speaker 1: I was stoked, it's a song that like sex workers like,
Speaker 1: and like at the Lusty Lady, which is where you
Speaker 1: know where the dancers can control the music and such
Speaker 1: like absolutely put on that song, but like the type
Speaker 1: of reaction that Ramon was getting with like the money
Speaker 1: going every right. I mean, if you can get that
Speaker 1: kind of reaction with a stage dance to Criminal, like
Speaker 1: do it of course, but that like it did not
Speaker 1: ring true to me in the same way that like
Speaker 1: propol tricks did not ring true. And someone's like, yes,
Speaker 1: that is how you do that dance move? Is that
Speaker 1: how you extract money out of a human? I know
Speaker 1: it's not in my opinion. In my opinion as someone
Speaker 1: who has extracted money out of many humans, like you
Speaker 1: know better than such moves, and like I don't do
Speaker 1: moves that good, but I made plenty of I will
Speaker 1: say about, like you know, whether or not Criminal is
Speaker 1: a good good choice. I'm sure there will be plenty
Speaker 1: of strippers that listener like, yeah, that's that, I'm so
Speaker 1: much money with that song, please go for it. But
Speaker 1: I do think that that moment when we see Ramona,
Speaker 1: we see her through Justiny's eyes. It's that moment when
Speaker 1: like the reality of what was actually happening in that moment,
Speaker 1: whether she chose Criminal or whether like and that's possibly
Speaker 1: why it was Criminal. That's a song that like I
Speaker 1: would choose for like the girl I like to dance
Speaker 1: for me, you know, and so like we see her
Speaker 1: through those eyes of like, oh man, this is the way,
Speaker 1: this is what the fantasy fulfilled. She's like mesmerized by
Speaker 1: Ramona's performance. I really love movie moments like that where
Speaker 1: you just see like it's just fun to see like
Speaker 1: women looking at each other and really just being like
Speaker 1: completely taken in by like another woman's persona or just
Speaker 1: like what she can do. And I was thinking about
Speaker 1: it because this is like different contexts mostly, but we
Speaker 1: just did an episode on Chicago and you kind of
Speaker 1: get like a similar moment where it's like I want
Speaker 1: to be your best friend, but I also want to
Speaker 1: be you, Like how do you do what you do?
Speaker 1: Like they're just can we exist in the same realm
Speaker 1: without destroying each other? Like let's try. So she is
Speaker 1: dancing to Criminal by Fiona Apple and people are throwing
Speaker 1: tons of money at her, and Destiny is like idolizing
Speaker 1: her and her moves. So then we've got that rooftop
Speaker 1: scene that we alluded to in our amazing introduction to
Speaker 1: this episode, where Destiny goes up to Ramona asks for
Speaker 1: some pointers and then Ramona is like, yeah, I'll show
Speaker 1: you the ropes and maybe we could even work together.
Speaker 1: Then we cut to seven years later where Destiny is
Speaker 1: being interviewed by a journalist named Elizabeth played by Julia Stiles.
Speaker 1: Was not I always forget that she's in the movie,
Speaker 1: and every time I see it, I'm like, oh, yeah, same.
Speaker 1: I would say, it's like, what makes this a dance
Speaker 1: movie is Julia Stiles. She's a little throwback. She is
Speaker 1: Shannon and that like that with like the neon pink
Speaker 1: and also the fundamentally all of the dancing in the film.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say this is a dance movie, which is
Speaker 1: like possibly my favorite genre film. The casting of this
Speaker 1: movie is so I guess it took two years to
Speaker 1: cast this movie. They like really took their time, and
Speaker 1: I feel like it shows like the casting choices. And
Speaker 1: Julia Stiles was like hell bent on being in this movie.
Speaker 1: She was like, I don't care what role I'm in it,
Speaker 1: I will do anything to be in this movie Saved
Speaker 1: the Last Dance from Me. So this journalist is interviewing
Speaker 1: Destiny about this kind of former life she has because
Speaker 1: when we see her in or whenever it is, she's
Speaker 1: like has a haircut and it's like wearing like a
Speaker 1: more conservative outfit and she's in like an h G
Speaker 1: t V. Living. Yeah, so she seems to be living
Speaker 1: like a different lifestyle now. And Elizabeth, the journalist, asks
Speaker 1: about when things got out of control. So then we
Speaker 1: cut back to two thousand seven, but the movie periodically
Speaker 1: cuts back to this interview that's happening. So back in
Speaker 1: two thousand seven, Ramona teaches Destiny some moves. They start
Speaker 1: dancing together, they get very strategic about the men they
Speaker 1: target at the club. They start making a lot more money,
Speaker 1: mostly from rich Wall Street guys, and then one night
Speaker 1: from Usher okay, wait, okay, stop again that So that
Speaker 1: scene is so wild. I mean, I guess that, like,
Speaker 1: if you were to think of the most two thousand
Speaker 1: seven scenario you could, this would be it. I love
Speaker 1: that there's no other like she describes it as like
Speaker 1: that was the last night it was good, and that
Speaker 1: is the like the point it serves it within the plot,
Speaker 1: but other than that, no, we never see Usher again.
Speaker 1: It's just like sometimes celebrities coming to the strip club
Speaker 1: and spend tons of money and it's an unforgettable night.
Speaker 1: I remember when Tears back to back at Avien, Little
Speaker 1: Wayne performed and then Cardi B performed and like I
Speaker 1: got to dance on stage with both of them, with
Speaker 1: like all of my peign star friends, And I was like,
Speaker 1: and Cardi B is a fictional stripper at this club Diamond.
Speaker 1: I wonder if that was like her name? Do we
Speaker 1: know if that was her name? I would assume anyway, Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I love that. The Usher sequence is a fever dream
Speaker 1: that is It's true. I'm sure that happened, you know, Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: I just love that. I don't know. You just never
Speaker 1: expect to see Usher. You just don't. It's it's a
Speaker 1: thrill every single time. And he isn't a lot of
Speaker 1: He makes cameos in a lot of movies, sometimes as himself,
Speaker 1: such as Hustlers, and sometimes as the DJ from Oh
Speaker 1: my God, which movie is it? Is it? Um, she's
Speaker 1: all that, she's all that, Yeah, she's all that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was like, wait, his heart So it's like twenty
Speaker 1: years apart, but still same energy. He popped back up.
Speaker 1: He's it's so interesting. I wonder because I know that
Speaker 1: it was Jennifer Lopez who talked to Cardi B and
Speaker 1: was like, you gotta be in this movie. I love
Speaker 1: this movie. I wonder how many music stars were like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's a j Lo movie. Okay, fine, I well it's
Speaker 1: also a Will Ferrell movie, right. That's it's so funny
Speaker 1: because I always forget that this is like a Will
Speaker 1: Ferrell Adam McKay like produced joint. But then when you
Speaker 1: know that, you're like, oh, it is like a movie
Speaker 1: about the recession with like a very particular framework. I
Speaker 1: guess Adam McKay's involvement makes sense. I always have to
Speaker 1: learn who Adam McKay is, and then as soon as
Speaker 1: I do, I promptly forget him and everything he's done,
Speaker 1: and then I have to learn it again like six
Speaker 1: months later. So sorry, Adam, but I still don't know
Speaker 1: who you are. He's listening. I like Ercoat, but he's
Speaker 1: just like I mean, I feel like he's most known
Speaker 1: as like big short guy. That's basically oh so he
Speaker 1: like makes movies about the very stylized movies about this
Speaker 1: specific recession. So yes, love but the recession he's obsessed. Okay,
Speaker 1: I did like that movie. Um, all right, so they're
Speaker 1: making a lot of money. Destiny and Ramona have become
Speaker 1: very good friends. We learn that Ramona has aspirations to
Speaker 1: design swimwear. Um. We learned that she has a like
Speaker 1: tween age daughter who she'll do absolutely anything for. We
Speaker 1: learned that Destiny decides to go back to school. On
Speaker 1: the side, she's she's still working at the club, and
Speaker 1: everything is going great. Her grandma's taken care of, she
Speaker 1: has her own place. Then the economic crisis of two
Speaker 1: thousand eight happens, which obviously significantly affects Wall Street, which
Speaker 1: in turn significantly affects how Destiny and Ramona and everyone
Speaker 1: at the club will be able to make money because
Speaker 1: their clientele is largely Wall Street guys. I guess, like, technically,
Speaker 1: if you wanted to, you could pause Hustlers there, watch
Speaker 1: the entire movie The Big Short, and then pick it
Speaker 1: up and it would kind of almost be an unbroken story. True, smart,
Speaker 1: that's it. That's an entire his death. That's if I
Speaker 1: were a history professor, I'd be like, I'm just going
Speaker 1: to sit in the back today and we're going to
Speaker 1: learn about the recession, and I'm not going to say
Speaker 1: a damn word. So Destiny stops dancing for a while.
Speaker 1: She has a baby with her boyfriend Johnny. A few
Speaker 1: years past. She is struggling financially this whole time, she
Speaker 1: tries to get a job in retail. She calls former
Speaker 1: regulars of hers to try to get them to give
Speaker 1: her money. Um She's unsuccessful, so she eventually goes back
Speaker 1: to the club, but isn't able to make the same
Speaker 1: kind of money that she was making with Ramona before,
Speaker 1: until she runs into Ramona one night, who catches Destiny
Speaker 1: up on what she's been doing, which has mostly been
Speaker 1: going fishing, where she and a couple other dancers at
Speaker 1: the club, Annabelle, who's played by Lily Reinhardt, and Mercedes
Speaker 1: played by Kiki Palmer. Palmer, I love I have an
Speaker 1: Adam McKay as she with Lily Reinhardt, and that every
Speaker 1: time I see her, I'm like, I've seen this woman before,
Speaker 1: but who is she? Kki Palmer, I don't have that problem.
Speaker 1: I'm a Kiky Palmer stand for life. She's great and
Speaker 1: she's so good in this movie. She's so funny. So
Speaker 1: these women go to a bar, they find a rich guy,
Speaker 1: get him drunk, take him to the strip club, where
Speaker 1: he does not realize they work at knowing that he
Speaker 1: will spend a lot of money there, and then they
Speaker 1: have negotiated a percentage of his spending with the club.
Speaker 1: So this is something they regularly do, although it doesn't
Speaker 1: always work. So to kind of streamline this process and
Speaker 1: ensure it's success more often, Ramona comes up with a
Speaker 1: slightly different version of the plan where they will give
Speaker 1: the guys that they meet a mix of ketamine and
Speaker 1: m d M A the most illegal version of the plan.
Speaker 1: It's like everything's going well and then we're just going
Speaker 1: to ramp it up a little bit through poisoning by crimes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like Ramona walking and be like okay, slight, tweak and
Speaker 1: no one panic. I mean that's what it was like
Speaker 1: in two thousand eight like one And also like in
Speaker 1: two thousand eighteen, postessed a fasta of just which is
Speaker 1: a piece of legislation but limited speech about sex on
Speaker 1: the internet and shuttered a lot of ways for people
Speaker 1: to uh So, I mean, like this movie is one
Speaker 1: percent about what happened to strip clubs after the recession.
Speaker 1: Like I said, after I watched it, I feel like
Speaker 1: the entire thing can be like summed up in that
Speaker 1: moment um when she sees this the house mom um
Speaker 1: working the front at the bar, and she's like, oh, there,
Speaker 1: you're out here again. The house mom says, yeah, these
Speaker 1: are all Russian girls and they're charging three hundred dollars
Speaker 1: for blow jobs in the back. And like that was
Speaker 1: North Beach in San Francisco when I was dancing in
Speaker 1: two thousand nine at the Lady one Percent. And then
Speaker 1: like the fall out of what happened, I mean like
Speaker 1: I started doing escorting and born and like went on
Speaker 1: to creat my own content and what I'm doing now.
Speaker 1: But the fact that women moved from the club outside
Speaker 1: and had to like ramp up what they would do
Speaker 1: and what they were willing to do and take legal
Speaker 1: work and you know, start turning it into criminality out
Speaker 1: of desperation is the story that we were all living
Speaker 1: during this time. So it was while to watch it
Speaker 1: played out by celebrities. Yeah, there's a quote I was
Speaker 1: going to share at some point. Seems like now it
Speaker 1: is a good time from Jacqueline Francis, who consulted on
Speaker 1: the film, and who uh you opened for? You, said
Speaker 1: Susie Jack. Sanna jacka stripper. She says in this oral
Speaker 1: history of the movie Hustlers quote, when I read the
Speaker 1: story a couple of years ago, meaning referring to the
Speaker 1: article that this movie is based on. Um, when I
Speaker 1: read the story a couple of years ago, I was like, damn,
Speaker 1: this is an amazing story. And yeah, it's problematic. Surviving
Speaker 1: under capitalism is problematic for everybody, and it's important to
Speaker 1: just talk about it, unque. And I feel like that's
Speaker 1: a lot of what this movie accomplishes, talking about and
Speaker 1: showing what it can look like to have to survive
Speaker 1: under capitalism, and the lengths some people in certain professions
Speaker 1: have to go to in order to survive under capitalism.
Speaker 1: And you know, we can talk more about that later,
Speaker 1: but okay. So Ramona pitches her plan of drugging people
Speaker 1: without their consent as a way to get the men
Speaker 1: to spend more money and faster, and Destiny is reluctant
Speaker 1: to join them. She thinks people will get hurt, but
Speaker 1: eventually she agrees, so they start implementing this plan on
Speaker 1: these rich guys they find it bars, they take them
Speaker 1: to the club, they rack up their tab, often having
Speaker 1: them spend thousands or tens of thousands of dollars in
Speaker 1: a single night. We seem perfect their drug cocktail, and
Speaker 1: like the ratios of the drugs that cook scene is is,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, extra special. The most wholesome babysitters club
Speaker 1: version of cooking drugs in your apartment that the world
Speaker 1: has ever seen. Warm your heart. I know it was.
Speaker 1: I was like a friendship is amazing. Wow. To take
Speaker 1: away from that scene of cooking drugs basically in an
Speaker 1: easy bake oven, like it's not not it's a hot plate,
Speaker 1: but it's not not an easy you know, so funny.
Speaker 1: I love it. Okay. So they're perfecting their methods. They
Speaker 1: also start outsourcing to other women to bring in more
Speaker 1: clientele and kind of like cast a wider net. They're
Speaker 1: making tons of money and they're working is this kind
Speaker 1: of big, happy, rich family. Then they realized, they're like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, why are we splitting our earnings with
Speaker 1: the club, But we could just be taking everything we make.
Speaker 1: So they start meeting the men in hotel rooms, um
Speaker 1: without security because like clearly the security guards at the club.
Speaker 1: We're not providing them enough assurance to think that they
Speaker 1: should hire outside security when going to a motel. Just
Speaker 1: just wanted to point that out. And then Ramona brings
Speaker 1: in this woman, Dawn, to help them out, but Dawn
Speaker 1: is very sloppy. They end up burning through their regulars,
Speaker 1: which leaves them having to find strangers who are unpredictable.
Speaker 1: One night, Destiny has to deal with this guy who
Speaker 1: had jumped off his roof, thinking that he would like
Speaker 1: jump in his pool, but he doesn't and he really
Speaker 1: badly injures himself, so she has to take him to
Speaker 1: the e er. Then, like immediately after that, has to
Speaker 1: get her daughter to school. She's got blood all over her.
Speaker 1: Everyone's looking at her, and Ramona is nowhere to be
Speaker 1: found while this big fiasco is happening, so you know,
Speaker 1: everyone's kind of freaking out. This is also when Destiny's
Speaker 1: grandmother passes away, so things are falling apart. Then during
Speaker 1: one of the interview scenes, Elizabeth the journalist brings up Doug.
Speaker 1: This is someone who they had stolen money from. But
Speaker 1: he wasn't this like gross Wall Street guy like the
Speaker 1: other ones. He seemed nice. He was going through a
Speaker 1: really rough time, but even so they manipulated and stole
Speaker 1: from him. So he goes to the police, who then
Speaker 1: start to investigate these goings on. A sting operation gets
Speaker 1: set up with Don, who had betrayed Ramona and Destiny Don,
Speaker 1: but they are too smart to get fucking caught. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was one of my favorite parts. It's just like, yes,
Speaker 1: there was a sting, and like these girls right here
Speaker 1: are not new right and like that, and that bitch
Speaker 1: was not only sloppy with aunts, she was sloppy with
Speaker 1: cops in a sting. So nothing became of it. But
Speaker 1: they had a very scary drive home across the bridge,
Speaker 1: so funny in my head, and like that that was
Speaker 1: the Bay Bridge. There was no other way that could
Speaker 1: be any other bridge in my mind that they were
Speaker 1: driving home over being followed by the by the car,
Speaker 1: but not set It's not your life, Susie, other people's
Speaker 1: lives in New York. But just like anyway, that feeling
Speaker 1: of like knowing something is up and then like every
Speaker 1: car that you see is potentially the one that's going
Speaker 1: to just stop and destroy your life. Totally. I think
Speaker 1: that that that sequence in particular is pulled pretty closely
Speaker 1: from the real story that this was adapted from to
Speaker 1: where it was like the real life person who was
Speaker 1: the inspiration for Dorothy was like also was like, something's
Speaker 1: not right with this already very messy person tonight and
Speaker 1: like tried to tip off the Ramona of the story,
Speaker 1: and it's it's and that their realized story of this
Speaker 1: is pretty interesting. And also where it deviates this, well
Speaker 1: we'll get there. Yeah. Um, So they don't get caught
Speaker 1: and arrested right then after this staying operation, but they
Speaker 1: do eventually get arrested. Destiny, Ramona, Mercedes, and Annabelle are
Speaker 1: all arrested. Destiny takes a deal to avoid jail time
Speaker 1: because she doesn't want to be away from her daughter Lily,
Speaker 1: and then the movie ends with Destiny calling the journalist
Speaker 1: and her being like, what did ramonas say about me?
Speaker 1: And Elizabeth is just like, you know, why don't you
Speaker 1: just give her a call? Sounds like you really want
Speaker 1: to reconnect with her. And then I think the final
Speaker 1: thing is Ramona, who now works at Old Navy, talking
Speaker 1: to Elizabeth saying like the entire world is a strip club,
Speaker 1: and some of us are tossed the money, and some
Speaker 1: of us are doing the dance. I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: we're gonna end the movie on the moral. Got it?
Speaker 1: I think like that move when it's like and in
Speaker 1: case you weren't paying attention, here is the thesis, David.
Speaker 1: If these shadows have offended, but again, like not mad
Speaker 1: about it at all. It's so perfectly executed. It's like
Speaker 1: nobody's mad when like Dominiquecio sticks the landing, like it's
Speaker 1: just good cheer. There's nothing to be mad about. There's
Speaker 1: nothing mad about. Let's take a quick break and then
Speaker 1: we'll come right back to discuss and we're back. Where
Speaker 1: do we want to start? I don't know. I mean,
Speaker 1: I am Susie. You were talking about this at the
Speaker 1: top of the episode as well. I was curious to
Speaker 1: know what, ye know, what elements of this movie stuck
Speaker 1: out to you as particular really authentic. Was there anything
Speaker 1: that like didn't hit or felt kind of off Um?
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, it hit on so many levels. And I
Speaker 1: think more than anything, I was just so ecstatic to
Speaker 1: be seeing a story about adult entertainment and adult industry
Speaker 1: workers that was not necessarily something I had seen before,
Speaker 1: and it was a story I mean, I've lived it
Speaker 1: one percent. So it was like very exciting to see
Speaker 1: things that felt so true and like my partner and
Speaker 1: I were sitting in My partner has been in the
Speaker 1: industry as long as I have. He's never been a stripper,
Speaker 1: but he's been around a lot of us, and um,
Speaker 1: we're just like clutching each other because you know the
Speaker 1: stakes that we're seeing these like you know, new girls
Speaker 1: make and the toxic fem for fem kinetic energy that
Speaker 1: like contrauma bond to people, and like the desperation of
Speaker 1: the world of economics. I mean, like two thousand seven
Speaker 1: was when I shot my first porn scene in Eugene, Oregon.
Speaker 1: It was a great time for me too, and I
Speaker 1: and two dozen nine, I was dancing on Broadway in
Speaker 1: San Francisco and entering the adult industry at the height
Speaker 1: of the recession was a trip. You know, it's um,
Speaker 1: you really had to believe because the wisdom of the
Speaker 1: time was that there's there's no money in this everything's
Speaker 1: doom and gloom, and it was a very one was
Speaker 1: sure what was going to happen. You know, the way
Speaker 1: that people had made money in the strip club was
Speaker 1: changing the things that were doing in the strip clubs
Speaker 1: were changing, the way that people made money online was
Speaker 1: rapidly changing, and the way that adult industry workers made
Speaker 1: made money from people who made money online. So really
Speaker 1: really exciting. And then it was so obvious that sex
Speaker 1: workers had been a part of creating this movie because
Speaker 1: of some of the like symbols, like that I was
Speaker 1: I was telling you earlier about the fur coat um
Speaker 1: component like you at the top of the show. You
Speaker 1: guys were acting out the little the scene where Destiny
Speaker 1: goes up on the roof and Ramona as they're smoking
Speaker 1: a cigarette in her massive floor length for coke and
Speaker 1: when she like climbs inside that I was like, oh no,
Speaker 1: it's over, It's over. And like I remember one night
Speaker 1: I went to work this was it was not in
Speaker 1: a strip club but something close um, and I met
Speaker 1: a girl. I was like, I didn't really want to
Speaker 1: go to work that night, Like I had a couple
Speaker 1: of drinks and I got there and it was just
Speaker 1: like like not really feeling it. And then I met
Speaker 1: this girl and she was like, it looks like pretty
Speaker 1: you should put And she had this like furs. It
Speaker 1: wasn't real fur, but she had this like furs like
Speaker 1: you should wear this night, and I was like, it
Speaker 1: was over. It was over. I made no money that night,
Speaker 1: not no money, but I like, but like, you know,
Speaker 1: someone was like trying to talk to me. I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know what you I was just enamored of this girl,
Speaker 1: and like, I mean, Graham, I'm gay. But like I've
Speaker 1: seen that happen to straight girls in the industry because
Speaker 1: it's like it's that mother wound, you know that like
Speaker 1: so many of us have it because of the schism
Speaker 1: in feminism around the sex industry. Um. I was just
Speaker 1: watching highly recommend Live New Girls Unite, which is a
Speaker 1: documentary about the Lusty Lady Keep Show, which unionized in
Speaker 1: the late nineties and then the workers bought the peep
Speaker 1: show from the people who owned it and had been,
Speaker 1: you know, so such bad business owners that they had
Speaker 1: to unionize. They eventually bought the place. It's now defuncted
Speaker 1: it closed in But that is where I got my
Speaker 1: first strip club job. Was this unionized worker own Peach
Speaker 1: Keep Show in two thousand and eight. It was really
Speaker 1: struggling during the recession. I mean, like when they talked
Speaker 1: about going fishing, I mean, we had our own version
Speaker 1: of that, but we just not involved drugging anyone. We
Speaker 1: would just like put on cute outfits and go down
Speaker 1: to UM the ball game Giant Stadium because that's when
Speaker 1: the Giants were having their like resurgence of success and
Speaker 1: they've been to the World Series twice and so their
Speaker 1: success was tied to our success, and so like on
Speaker 1: game nights, we would go down and pass out flyers
Speaker 1: at the game, like, hey, it's just a short walk
Speaker 1: up the beach a dollar. You can see all the
Speaker 1: naked chicks that you like. And um, you know, we
Speaker 1: were doing everything that we could to stay afloat during
Speaker 1: during a really a really rough time. But that fur
Speaker 1: coat is such a just like symbol of opulence and
Speaker 1: wealth and like old money. Um. Lily Berna who wrote
Speaker 1: Strip City UM an incredible book about when the O'Farrell
Speaker 1: Brothers theater the workers there sued the theater about their
Speaker 1: independent contractor employee status. So if you like this type
Speaker 1: of movie, like two recommendations, UM Live New Girls Unite,
Speaker 1: which is such a like rinky dink Riot Girl nineteen
Speaker 1: nineties mixtape of a documentary. It's so it's so good
Speaker 1: if you if you like if you like a zine
Speaker 1: You'll Love This. And then um, Strip City, which is
Speaker 1: a book by Lily Berna, who occasionally it contributes to
Speaker 1: The Atlantic New York Times and stuff. She's amazing, But
Speaker 1: the equence in that book about the first time she
Speaker 1: could afford a fur coat, and it's like an extravagant expense.
Speaker 1: But like a nineties girl in San Francisco probably doesn't
Speaker 1: really even need, right, but a strip a stripper and
Speaker 1: Sanmons in New York certainly does. But it's such a symbol.
Speaker 1: And then when again in the film Hustlers, when Ramona
Speaker 1: gives Deskin a fur coat for Christmas, along with red
Speaker 1: lu red bottom lubit Hans for Kiki, Like these are
Speaker 1: symbols that are deeply meaningful to our community. Like I'm
Speaker 1: getting goose bumps just thinking about. It's so stupid, um,
Speaker 1: you know, in the same way that the glass slipper
Speaker 1: or magic lamp. For like, these things hold meaning beyond
Speaker 1: what they are, beyond the money that they cost. Um.
Speaker 1: And so that I have a song that I wrote
Speaker 1: a long time ago, like when I first had my
Speaker 1: my first heartbreak, the first other sex worker that broke
Speaker 1: my heart. Um, I wrote a song called homemance about
Speaker 1: this very feeling. Even if you're not into girls, if
Speaker 1: you enter the adult industry, the likelihood that you will
Speaker 1: fall head over heels and this like deep promantic way
Speaker 1: promantic way um with someone, the likelihood that she will
Speaker 1: become your pimp and exploit you in some type of way.
Speaker 1: It's very high. But and like the moral of the
Speaker 1: story is that like this love is different and it's
Speaker 1: unlike anything else, and it will probably destroy you. And
Speaker 1: once you love in that way, like when you violate
Speaker 1: the terms of that love and you violate that deep trust,
Speaker 1: that like when you have to have someone's back because
Speaker 1: like everybody out in the world wants to get you,
Speaker 1: including the cops, including the manager of the place you were,
Speaker 1: including the man that you're taking money from. The only
Speaker 1: person that has your back is that other girl in
Speaker 1: the room. And if you turn around and you exploit her,
Speaker 1: or if you turn around and you rat on her
Speaker 1: to the cops and you betray her, you never get
Speaker 1: that back. And it's the most sacred thing in the world. Ah,
Speaker 1: that's beautiful. Is that song is still available? Yeah? Check
Speaker 1: it out? I can, I can send you the link. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's just the link I would love to to share
Speaker 1: it with our listeners. That's oh my god, that was
Speaker 1: like so beautifully put. Thank you, thank you. It's very
Speaker 1: to talk about it. I'm just so glad that there's
Speaker 1: a movie about it, Like we needed this. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: like you've said, this is so much of what this
Speaker 1: movie is about. This like female friendship and camaraderie. There's
Speaker 1: a line of voiceover from Destiny where she says, like
Speaker 1: Ramona wasn't looking for friends, but it happened. Yeah. This
Speaker 1: movie is just I mean, it's mostly about women looking
Speaker 1: out for each other, helping each other out, lifting each
Speaker 1: other up, knowing what circumstances they are in, because she's
Speaker 1: also in the same boat kind of thing, and just
Speaker 1: supporting each other. And while there is conflict between the
Speaker 1: characters at different points in the movie, like I don't
Speaker 1: agree on everything, they take different approaches to things, you know,
Speaker 1: Ramona has this tendency to kind of take in strays
Speaker 1: as as Destiny puts it with like Dawn and this
Speaker 1: woman Coco keeps up. But the conflict that does exist
Speaker 1: between them from time to time, like it always makes sense.
Speaker 1: There's the context for it, and it's just beautiful to
Speaker 1: watch that unfold, especially because and I want to pull
Speaker 1: a quote from the article that this movie was based on,
Speaker 1: which is entitled The Hustlers at Scores by Jessica Pressler,
Speaker 1: originally published in The New Yorker. Quote, while evolutionary theory
Speaker 1: and the Bachelor would suggest that a room full of
Speaker 1: women hoping to attract the attention of a few men
Speaker 1: would be cut throat competitive, it's actually better for strippers
Speaker 1: to work together because while most men might be able
Speaker 1: to keep their wits and their wallets around one scantily clad,
Speaker 1: sweet smelling self, they tend to lose their grip around
Speaker 1: three or four end quote. So and I feel like
Speaker 1: this is actually something we talked about on the Mulan
Speaker 1: Rouge episode, which was from like a million years ago.
Speaker 1: But um, there's this really antagonistic relationship between Satine and
Speaker 1: one of the other cortisans in that movie. And how
Speaker 1: oftentimes relationships between sex workers are portrayed that way in movies,
Speaker 1: where there's the idea that they are competing for the
Speaker 1: attention of one man, so they have to be very
Speaker 1: cutthroat and antagonistic towards each other. But how that is
Speaker 1: often not the case in real life among real sex workers. Yeah,
Speaker 1: interested if you have any like additional insight about that, Susie. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I mean like I mean, I shot horn, you know,
Speaker 1: in college back in two thousand and seven. But I
Speaker 1: consider my first real job in the adult industry at
Speaker 1: the Lusty Lady, which is where workers literally banded together
Speaker 1: to unionize, fight for their rights, um get represented by
Speaker 1: s c IU Local seven ninety and eventually by the place.
Speaker 1: And if that isn't proof empirical evidence of what's possible
Speaker 1: when sex workers band together, and like a huge part
Speaker 1: of I remember my very first day walking out on
Speaker 1: to the stage, which was like a little fish tank,
Speaker 1: you know, because the Keep Show is not a strip club.
Speaker 1: It's like an enclosed stage with little tiny windows. If
Speaker 1: you watch the Madonna Open Your Heart video or Real
Speaker 1: Live New Girls Unite, you will get to see what
Speaker 1: it's like. But you know, it's surrounded by mirrors, and
Speaker 1: just this idea that like if the window went up
Speaker 1: and the guy looked at me and I wasn't what
Speaker 1: he wanted, the idea that the girl he wanted next
Speaker 1: to me was maybe what you wanted. And at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, because we all had collective ownership
Speaker 1: of the business. It didn't matter. I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: you want to you want to blind? Wasn't blonde at
Speaker 1: the time? You want to blonde? Absolutely, Let me at
Speaker 1: Princess real quick. She's so nice and they're that feeling
Speaker 1: was always a part of that workplace. And I wish
Speaker 1: that we saw more of that the adult industry, But
Speaker 1: I think I think we are. I think that um,
Speaker 1: the way that the workers now can own the means
Speaker 1: of production in terms of like creating content online. We
Speaker 1: see that there is a customer for every person, you know.
Speaker 1: And and while white supremacy still exists, able ism still exists,
Speaker 1: classes and sizes, and still exists. The ability for us
Speaker 1: to find our niche and find the people who respond
Speaker 1: to that niche is there, and it always has been.
Speaker 1: It's just been like oppressed by management and um, you know,
Speaker 1: other forces that be totally I really appreciated and that
Speaker 1: it was just immediately in establishing this dynamic between Ramona
Speaker 1: and Destiny of how immediately like Ramona does not gate
Speaker 1: keep any information she doesn't get I mean, and and
Speaker 1: it sounds like not only because she seems to really
Speaker 1: get a lot out of taking younger strippers in under
Speaker 1: her wing, but also because it's like she wouldn't benefit
Speaker 1: from gatekeeping information in that scenario anyways, and and establishing
Speaker 1: that really smoothly and simply at the beginning. I that
Speaker 1: was just so cool because I think for like you're saying,
Speaker 1: caulin a lot of movies about strippers and also just
Speaker 1: about you know, how it's perceived that women fundamentally interact
Speaker 1: with each other is like inherently competitive, when that is
Speaker 1: most often not the case. We talked about this all
Speaker 1: the time, even dance movies. If we think of this
Speaker 1: as a dance movie, there's always that part of the
Speaker 1: movie of just like, oh, you think that you're this,
Speaker 1: well you're not, sister, let me tell you. But like
Speaker 1: we don't. We don't get that moment. And until she
Speaker 1: comes back at the very end, and it's even it's
Speaker 1: not that it's just that the whole place has changed.
Speaker 1: It's not that these women are hazing her in any
Speaker 1: particular way. She's just not part of it anymore. There's
Speaker 1: only one tiny moment that I clocked where there felt
Speaker 1: like there was a little bit of competitiveness where Destiny
Speaker 1: is trying to get a guy early on in the
Speaker 1: movie to buy a private dance and Cardi B. It
Speaker 1: is like, back off, bitch, but that's kind of that
Speaker 1: only a quick moment. And then later, like a few
Speaker 1: scenes later, Cardi B Is helping Destiny and like showing
Speaker 1: her how to give a lap Dancey that that's just
Speaker 1: learning that, that's just your training wheels. I remember my again,
Speaker 1: my very first moment stepping onto the stage. I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: when a window came up, I'll go, I'll go talk
Speaker 1: to that window. And this girl being like, hey, just
Speaker 1: so you know, so like these are my windows, but
Speaker 1: this is my dance space. That is your dance space.
Speaker 1: Like you have to learn those those ins and outs
Speaker 1: of the club because you can't funk with somebody else's
Speaker 1: money if they're in the middle of sale. Just if
Speaker 1: you were a hot tub salesman and like somebody came
Speaker 1: up and you're talking to a nice family at the fair.
Speaker 1: They're gonna buy a great hot tub, and this other
Speaker 1: guy comes in, it's like, you know what, let me
Speaker 1: show you this hot tub. Fuck that guy, you know,
Speaker 1: like right, it's the same same thing I wanted. I
Speaker 1: wanted to talk a little more about the I mean,
Speaker 1: it's the Ramana, destiny, friendship, and dynamic, and I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it becomes so many things. It becomes a friendship,
Speaker 1: it becomes this like really intense, almost romantic, emotional connection.
Speaker 1: They become business partners for a good portion of the movie.
Speaker 1: And it's just it's so complicated in a way that
Speaker 1: you I feel like, almost never see between characters in
Speaker 1: a movie of any kind of total of like you
Speaker 1: were saying, Caitland, they're they're in conflict, or they're they're
Speaker 1: disagreeing with each other. They're not necessarily in conflict, but
Speaker 1: they disagree with each other on almost everything, and their
Speaker 1: approaches to the world and to money and to work
Speaker 1: are fundamentally different, but they are still able to I
Speaker 1: don't know, like exist in so many different ways to
Speaker 1: each other. And I thought it was really interesting that
Speaker 1: the writing of the movie, I like that you're kind
Speaker 1: of given that opening at the end of like, maybe
Speaker 1: they will reconcile and maybe this will be, you know,
Speaker 1: something that could be rekindled down the line, because what
Speaker 1: did they have to lose by being in each other's
Speaker 1: lives at this point. But but going back to that,
Speaker 1: going back to the real story, it that's a little
Speaker 1: less clear, or at least at the time of writing,
Speaker 1: it sounds like that they were still very much the
Speaker 1: two women that these are based on, these characters are
Speaker 1: based on, We're still very much on the outs, which
Speaker 1: is like makes me sad. It does seem like by
Speaker 1: the end, it's like, well, what, it's totally fair, But
Speaker 1: it's totally fair. She ratted her out to the cops
Speaker 1: and she like himp handed her. You don't get to
Speaker 1: come back from that. You don't get to kids and
Speaker 1: be like I'm fine. Those are those are deep transgressions
Speaker 1: that you don't heal from. It's it's such a complicated
Speaker 1: like it's I don't know, and it's like beautifully acted
Speaker 1: and written and shot, and especially because they both have children,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, It's just like if it
Speaker 1: was just them and they were still single girls. But no,
Speaker 1: like when you when you established that somebody that you
Speaker 1: once saw as safe is actually not safe, like you,
Speaker 1: you hope that you hope the best for them, and
Speaker 1: you are a mother and you cannot let that person
Speaker 1: in your life because you will lose your child, or
Speaker 1: you will have or you are yourself or that child.
Speaker 1: You will be in an exploitative situation that risk. Nope,
Speaker 1: so like I completely understand it's sad. But and that's
Speaker 1: scene with Ramona and Destiny as well, when when Ramona
Speaker 1: learns that Destiny has taken the Plea deal and she's
Speaker 1: you know, not aligning at any point. At this point,
Speaker 1: Ramona is furious. I mean, it's like it's such a
Speaker 1: hard Ultimately she knows why Destiny made that decision, even
Speaker 1: if it's the last worst possible thing for her. I
Speaker 1: don't know. That scene was just like so good but
Speaker 1: like terrible, yeah, yeah, good bit terrible yeah, And like
Speaker 1: the the scene that I think parallels that because that
Speaker 1: was like the breaking point for Ramona, but the breaking
Speaker 1: point for Destiny happened months before when Ramona like hit
Speaker 1: her basically tried to get the phone away from her
Speaker 1: and like for good cause, like Destiny was about to
Speaker 1: suck it up and like essentially did. But um that
Speaker 1: was that was the pimpand coming out and like once
Speaker 1: that comes out, that girl's not your friend anymore. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The justification that Destiny uses when she's like, this is
Speaker 1: why I took the Plea deal was she's like quoting
Speaker 1: what Ramona had said earlier. But she said, you know,
Speaker 1: motherhood is a mental illness. I'm doing this for my daughter.
Speaker 1: I'm curious what everyone thinks about. That just kind of
Speaker 1: as a bit of a through line in the movie.
Speaker 1: And I don't know if I don't Sometimes I forgot
Speaker 1: that Destiny even had a daughter, because she comes up
Speaker 1: so sparingly in the movie. So I would have I
Speaker 1: almost would have liked to see her relationship with her
Speaker 1: daughter a little more because when she says that, I'm like,
Speaker 1: all right, you have a daughter, and I did. I
Speaker 1: did feel like, yeah, Ramona's relationship. I feel like they
Speaker 1: probably get about the same amount of screen time. But
Speaker 1: it's just like telegraphed way clearer that Ramona and her
Speaker 1: daughter are like very very close, and like Ramona says repeatedly,
Speaker 1: like I would do anything for her, like motherhood is
Speaker 1: a mental illness in the whole bit, and we it's
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, I mean, I guess that
Speaker 1: that didn't really stick out to me too. It made
Speaker 1: sense to me story wise that that was the decision
Speaker 1: that Destiny made, not just logistically, but because of what
Speaker 1: we know about her and because of her personal history.
Speaker 1: That's where it made the most sense to me, where
Speaker 1: like she was struggling as a single mother, and we
Speaker 1: know that throughout this story, but we also know that
Speaker 1: she was struggling with how she was abandoned by her
Speaker 1: own mother, and it sounds like she would do almost
Speaker 1: anything to prevent that from happening to her daughter, even
Speaker 1: if it screws someone else over or that was how
Speaker 1: I was interpreting that totally. Let's take another quick break
Speaker 1: and then we will come right back, and we're back.
Speaker 1: I would love to talk a little bit more about
Speaker 1: police and how police are portrayed in this movie, and
Speaker 1: like the interaction of the industry and the cops. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I've never really done sex work in New
Speaker 1: York little and danced um there, so I'm not like
Speaker 1: as familiar with with the nuances of that relationship between
Speaker 1: like strippers and cops and strip clubs and cops as
Speaker 1: we saw in the film, Like we know that police
Speaker 1: frequent these places, and like think one of the most
Speaker 1: like biting moments of the film is when the reporter
Speaker 1: I guess it's po V Julius Styles at this point,
Speaker 1: is talking to the cops that like put together the
Speaker 1: investigation that eventually took these women down, and like the
Speaker 1: takeaway for them was like, yeah, I really spooked some
Speaker 1: of the guys. We stopped going to the clubs altogether.
Speaker 1: Like that's what he wanted her to know. Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: oh okay, cool sir, that was on the record, right.
Speaker 1: So um, But just in general, I think that it's
Speaker 1: important to we hear Jennifer Lopez's characters say like, what
Speaker 1: what are these guys gonna do? Are they going to
Speaker 1: call the cops and say, please, officer, helped me? I
Speaker 1: spent five thousand dollars at the strip club last night.
Speaker 1: The inverse of that, though, is what are they going
Speaker 1: to do? They can't call the cops? Oh please help me, officer. Uh,
Speaker 1: this guy that we gave ketamine an M D m
Speaker 1: A to is now you know, and if he wasn't,
Speaker 1: Like what if we know that kenemine and M D
Speaker 1: m A have different effects on different people, you know,
Speaker 1: Like the likelihood that a person could have gotten violent
Speaker 1: or had a weapon or sexually assaulted one of those
Speaker 1: girls in one of those hotel rooms is just so high,
Speaker 1: And then what is the police recourse there? Um is
Speaker 1: the question that we don't get into in this film.
Speaker 1: Because it is like, even though it's eighteen and up,
Speaker 1: somebody says something about like that ends the PG thirteen component,
Speaker 1: But it is a PG thirteen stripper movie, Like even
Speaker 1: though it's very like there's full nudity, it's there's something
Speaker 1: even it doesn't like even their sentences. Right. I don't
Speaker 1: know how true to life these are, but it was
Speaker 1: satisfying that at the end of this movie about the
Speaker 1: industry that usually ends with protagonists who work in this
Speaker 1: industry being punished, like severely punished within the the world
Speaker 1: of the Felm, either through death, dismemberment, or like lifelong
Speaker 1: stigma or heartbreak. Right, um, is usually what we see
Speaker 1: in and these these women all were able to serve
Speaker 1: their time and move on. At least that's what the
Speaker 1: film that was wants us to believe. As far as
Speaker 1: I know, that was also true of of their real
Speaker 1: life story, that the sentences that were like put on
Speaker 1: screen at the end were reflective of what actually happened.
Speaker 1: So you know, it's a rare in that you know
Speaker 1: somebody and get out of a police encounter alive, especially
Speaker 1: if they're a woman of color and a sex worker.
Speaker 1: So um, I think that those arrests. Sequences were handled
Speaker 1: really well by the filmmakers because in a time right now,
Speaker 1: like I don't want to see Keiki Palmer, you're a cop,
Speaker 1: And like that sequence was like just brief enough that
Speaker 1: like I didn't I don't know, perhaps it was traumatizing
Speaker 1: for a lot of viewers, um, but they it was
Speaker 1: very cinematic. It was very like the end of the
Speaker 1: heist with all the cops like waiting at the line,
Speaker 1: but you know, like where I'm sure the reality was
Speaker 1: a lot uglier, you know, right, Yeah, Yeah, I do
Speaker 1: appreciate that the movie doesn't dwell on those moments or
Speaker 1: like you know, make too much of a meal on it,
Speaker 1: because we're not on even though these women are, you know,
Speaker 1: engaging in some very morally questionable behavior, we're still rooting
Speaker 1: for them, Like we're not rooting for the cops in
Speaker 1: this story. So so many movies ask you to do
Speaker 1: every single one. I feel like, I feel like growing
Speaker 1: up is realizing that like every person you've liked in
Speaker 1: a movie is actually a cop. I this happens to
Speaker 1: me all the time, Like oh my gosh, wow, um
Speaker 1: silence and the lambs, Oh wait, she's a cop. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: oh my god speed. Oh wait, he's a cop. Everybody's
Speaker 1: a sucking copy. Um okay here really quick. I have
Speaker 1: been trying to get this movement, this going for like
Speaker 1: years and years. Nobody wants it, nobody asked for us,
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna. I'm gonna so like go for it,
Speaker 1: shoot your shot. I had the privilege of like getting
Speaker 1: a little taste of like the Time's Up moment. I
Speaker 1: definitely got to spend like Valentine's Day two thousand and
Speaker 1: seventeen or eighteen with like Leese, Witherspid Liver and Cox
Speaker 1: and like on the Warner Brothers Law, like the top
Speaker 1: of people started to get together and talk about and
Speaker 1: it was all like very exciting and YadA YadA, like
Speaker 1: you know, it's some things have happened, but we all
Speaker 1: know where we are. But yeah, what I would like
Speaker 1: to see for Times Up to move forward, Like the
Speaker 1: next step in Times Up is Time's up cops. Hollywood
Speaker 1: has to stop doing this. Hollywood has to stop glorifying
Speaker 1: police and the bucked up work that they do. Like
Speaker 1: obviously we have to stop seeing I think it was
Speaker 1: really exemplified in the Central Park five series on Netflix
Speaker 1: when we saw that this like the way that prosecutors
Speaker 1: and police and investigators abused children and you know, other
Speaker 1: suspects that they have in custody, and the way that
Speaker 1: that has been glorified through like nineteen nineties drama and
Speaker 1: like SPU and law and order and all of this
Speaker 1: glorification of literal police misconduct and violence, and Hollywood needs
Speaker 1: to be responsible for that and like put together a
Speaker 1: resolution to fucking stop it. Just stop it. We don't
Speaker 1: need to see any more stories about quote unquote good
Speaker 1: cops or bad cops who turn good or good cops
Speaker 1: or bad or just bad cops. We don't need any
Speaker 1: more stories about cops, like except Wellington Paranormal and that's fine.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, yes I love that show. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm fully on board with your movement, and what can
Speaker 1: we do to help just hashtag times up cops, Like
Speaker 1: anytime you are are having a moment where you're like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I thought that I could watch twin Peaks,
Speaker 1: but actually it is just a story about an FBI agent.
Speaker 1: It's more compaganda. Yeah, Like it's it's just capaganda, fucking
Speaker 1: pop patrol. Like you're indoctrinated at such a young age
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, to cop media. But it's like it's
Speaker 1: it's the fact that pop patrol exists and is wildly
Speaker 1: popular is and this maybe sounds over but I think
Speaker 1: it's I think that that's really disturbing that that is
Speaker 1: like something that exists. And I totally yeah, I totally
Speaker 1: agree with you that there should be in the same
Speaker 1: way that the times of movement, which it sounds like
Speaker 1: we all have some criticisms of perhaps but the yeah,
Speaker 1: like is it, but the way that there was at
Speaker 1: least some push to be like here is like a
Speaker 1: tangible like result that we want and not just like
Speaker 1: we don't like this and you should stop, because I
Speaker 1: feel like that almost never yields something. It's like, like
Speaker 1: this is exactly what we want. We want to see
Speaker 1: cop media like decreased by like seventy by two thousand
Speaker 1: and twenty seven, and like have that like a tangible
Speaker 1: results because otherwise it feels like, I mean, this was
Speaker 1: so recently, like copaganda was understandably so recently a huge discussion,
Speaker 1: and in terms of the media discussion at least of
Speaker 1: how it appears how cops appear in media, I feel
Speaker 1: like that discussion did not last for very long and
Speaker 1: didn't I mean definitely didn't really move the move the
Speaker 1: dial very much. And I think it's a key part
Speaker 1: of how we move forward with imagining a world beyond police.
Speaker 1: We have to first imagine it and make movies about it.
Speaker 1: That is key. It's just it's not the only thing,
Speaker 1: but it's something that we as content creator slash like
Speaker 1: media coal miners can do to just you know, call
Speaker 1: it out, call it out in your favorite movies. I mean,
Speaker 1: like if you're listening to this, I'm sure you have
Speaker 1: a social media account, Like next time you get mad
Speaker 1: when you're watching s VU and you're like, you know what,
Speaker 1: actually Detective Olivia Benson, you maybe Jane Mansfield's daughter, but like, no, right,
Speaker 1: you can't. You can't treat that suspect that way. You
Speaker 1: have to actually let them see a lawyer like Francis
Speaker 1: McDorman and Fargo, don't god, I know. And it would
Speaker 1: be it would be nice to see more popular actors
Speaker 1: like acknowledge and distance themselves from prominent cops that they've
Speaker 1: played I have done it imporn, yeah, like I mean,
Speaker 1: and also just like as actors, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: But it's something I am constantly, you know, cognizant of
Speaker 1: as like a performer. If someone asks me to play
Speaker 1: a role like that, I tried to avoid it or
Speaker 1: like switch, you know. And this is not always true
Speaker 1: outside of the adult entertainment industry. It's like, excuse me,
Speaker 1: I have some feedback about my role. It doesn't really felt.
Speaker 1: It's not things that generally actors can do. But in
Speaker 1: the adult industry we are blessed and bratty. But blessed
Speaker 1: and braddy is a great way to be. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I I didn't I don't want to say I didn't
Speaker 1: mind how cops were portrayed in this film, like in
Speaker 1: terms of just like how egregious it usually is within
Speaker 1: the context of this film, like it was okay, like
Speaker 1: nobody was googled horrified, but the tension and like the
Speaker 1: real sort of risks and steaks, and like how rough
Speaker 1: it is between sex workers, sex workers of color, specifically
Speaker 1: Emplolice was mark I think absent was markedly absent in
Speaker 1: this film. Yeah, that is something that I feel like
Speaker 1: there was room to explore in this movie, especially because
Speaker 1: several of the main characters are women of color. But yes,
Speaker 1: the way that cops have been historically represented in movies
Speaker 1: as heroes, and it maybe like just the best people
Speaker 1: in the world and they're awesome and they saved the
Speaker 1: day all the time, versus how sex workers have historically
Speaker 1: been represented in film and meet the media of any
Speaker 1: kind really aside from like adult entertainment. Just like think
Speaker 1: about how many movies you've seen that are usually directed
Speaker 1: by men, where there's a scene that takes place in
Speaker 1: a drip club for absolutely no narrative reason, usually just
Speaker 1: as an excuse, you have naked women be set dressing
Speaker 1: in the movie. We never learn anything about them. They're
Speaker 1: just objectified and dehumanized because of the way they are
Speaker 1: just bodies that we don't know anything about versus this
Speaker 1: movie and of small handful of others, and only in
Speaker 1: pretty recent years that take care to show the interior
Speaker 1: lives of women who do or people of any gender
Speaker 1: who do adult entertainment. And we obviously learned tons of
Speaker 1: information about the interior lives of Destiny and Ramona, we
Speaker 1: learned some details about more secondary characters like Mercedes and Annabelle,
Speaker 1: and then we even get a peek into the lives
Speaker 1: of several tertiary characters. For example, there's a scene pretty
Speaker 1: early on where they're going around like the dressing room
Speaker 1: and like Cardi B And Lizzo and a couple other
Speaker 1: women are like talking about their sex lives and they're
Speaker 1: like romantic lives. They're like, I remember the first day
Speaker 1: I walked I walked into audition, actually not my first day. Um,
Speaker 1: I was you know, seeing if I was allowed to
Speaker 1: dance naked, and it was very dorky. But I remember
Speaker 1: seeing this girl in the dressing room, her name was
Speaker 1: Dolores Park, just screaming in these like eight inch heels,
Speaker 1: screaming on the phone to her boyfriend, just like I
Speaker 1: had never seen a woman just like let our have
Speaker 1: it so hard before and this was just like normal.
Speaker 1: But that first sequence, like we felt so very familiar
Speaker 1: of just like women usually nude, just like with their
Speaker 1: genital yet out being there full selves. We don't get
Speaker 1: to see that very often. And it's that that strip
Speaker 1: club dressing room space sacred as sacred, yeah, and it's
Speaker 1: like met with all support and like love and energy
Speaker 1: and those scenes are so so wonderful. And I also
Speaker 1: wanted to shout out how cinematography is handled in this
Speaker 1: movie too, where uh, there is a there there's it's
Speaker 1: almost it's interesting because it's written and directed by Lorraine Scafaria.
Speaker 1: It's edited by a female editor, Kila m. There is
Speaker 1: a male cinematographer, but I think that the way that
Speaker 1: cinematography is handled, it's like, so, I mean whatever, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's all these scenes and strip clubs that are focusing
Speaker 1: on the strippers faces, and a lot of a lot
Speaker 1: of scenes what Ramona is doing is controlling the camera entirely,
Speaker 1: and then as the power dynamic shifts, then it's Destiny
Speaker 1: starts to take control of the camera at certain moments.
Speaker 1: But it's so it's still sexy when it needs to
Speaker 1: be sexy, but it's not. I don't know, I didn't
Speaker 1: find the camera work to be creepy or leering or
Speaker 1: I mean, because it was you were usually seeing things
Speaker 1: through one of these women's eyes, and if what they
Speaker 1: were seeing was sexy, and they thought what they were
Speaker 1: seeing was sexy, it was sexy, but it wasn't like
Speaker 1: and then you also get kind of the reverse of this,
Speaker 1: which I always enjoy seeing in a movie, where it
Speaker 1: cuts over to like, you know, the patrons like goofy
Speaker 1: faces while they're while they're like looking at beautiful women dancing,
Speaker 1: Like I just I really thought that was like a
Speaker 1: cool element of this movie. And it's something that is
Speaker 1: so often I don't know, I think we take it
Speaker 1: for granted when it's well done, because when it's poorly done,
Speaker 1: it's so obvious. That's the thing. Like, and we talked
Speaker 1: about women being objectified and being like the objects of
Speaker 1: the male gaze all the time and so many movies,
Speaker 1: and it's not as though we have a problem with
Speaker 1: women being sexy on screen and being sexual on screen,
Speaker 1: Like that's not where we take issue. It's all about
Speaker 1: like it has to be on and her terms, like
Speaker 1: how she is presented and and how she is framed
Speaker 1: by the camera, and like again, yeah, who's point of
Speaker 1: view or if you're doing there have been leering shots
Speaker 1: in movies that you don't love that, But it's like
Speaker 1: it just needs to make sense in the story because
Speaker 1: I feel like that's a huge Michael Bay thing when
Speaker 1: even with and like, of course that's like the most
Speaker 1: extreme example, but like on the page, Like on the page,
Speaker 1: a lot of Michael Bay characters are not inherently sexual.
Speaker 1: It's just the fact that the camera is just like
Speaker 1: for no narrative reason just like making a complete meal
Speaker 1: of them that they become so sexualized, and it's like
Speaker 1: it's it's in no way motivated by the story. Is
Speaker 1: just like, well, that's just what he wanted to do. Well.
Speaker 1: Teenage boys are the target audience for this Transformers, so
Speaker 1: we have to show Megan Fox's ass. I'll never forget doing.
Speaker 1: I do a lot of media advocacy and like, um,
Speaker 1: you know, I'll talk to the press because because I
Speaker 1: know how to do offensively. But it was I think
Speaker 1: when my red book dot com was taken out by
Speaker 1: the FBI, which was like a advertising website that I
Speaker 1: actually used when I as a stripper working at The
Speaker 1: Lefty Lady, because there was like an exotic dance section.
Speaker 1: There was a section where we could like exchange information
Speaker 1: about that dates and things like that. So I gave
Speaker 1: I talked to the news and my little like red
Speaker 1: blazer and pencil skirt, my little advocacy outfit on and
Speaker 1: I ended up like meeting them in like a parking
Speaker 1: lot somewhere, like Chevy's parking lot in Oakland or something,
Speaker 1: and I gave the interview and I hit my talking points.
Speaker 1: I talked all about you know, like the risks to
Speaker 1: the industry and blah blah blah. And when I saw
Speaker 1: the sequence that came out that evening on the evening news,
Speaker 1: they literally started at my high heels and pan and
Speaker 1: spent and used a whole shot of just my feet
Speaker 1: on the news and then like panned up my entire
Speaker 1: body as I was like talking about the f B
Speaker 1: I taking down a resource that helps keep sex workers
Speaker 1: alive on the fucking news. So like, it's not just
Speaker 1: Mike Away, It's not just Michael Bay. It's like it's
Speaker 1: the news, the fucking news that's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. And
Speaker 1: I think that when I'm looking back on the movie
Speaker 1: Hustlers and like thinking about like objectification or like, you
Speaker 1: know these things that we often critique um in films
Speaker 1: made for the mail gaze slashed by men. Something happens,
Speaker 1: or at least happened to me when I started profiting
Speaker 1: off off the mail gates and like using my body
Speaker 1: as a tool to survive under capitalism by exploiting the
Speaker 1: mail gaze and also being gay and wanting to attract
Speaker 1: women who were also doing this dance. Uh, something happens
Speaker 1: to your aesthetic and like people can't see me right now,
Speaker 1: but like I I am a cartoon character, like through
Speaker 1: and through, and I think that there is just a
Speaker 1: piece of alchemy that happens when you are because you're
Speaker 1: getting dressed at the strip club to make money that night,
Speaker 1: but you're also making sure that you like look good
Speaker 1: to your peers and coworkers and maybe that girl you're
Speaker 1: going to get a doughnut with after work, you know.
Speaker 1: And if you've ever been in like them, lesbian circles
Speaker 1: or from fem spaces, the way that we dressed to
Speaker 1: attract each other like goes it goes into drag, right,
Speaker 1: it goes beyond like the male gaze like a mail
Speaker 1: gays left long ago. Honey, I'm so sorry it's not
Speaker 1: with these like glitter eyelashes or for they're not for
Speaker 1: the man in the room, okay, Like and that's very
Speaker 1: much what this film felt like for me. I'm just like, yes,
Speaker 1: we're all. I'm here at the strip club and I'm
Speaker 1: going to make money because this healthfit is hot. But
Speaker 1: I am looking at you, ma'am, and I'm wondering what
Speaker 1: you're doing later, what that film feels like. That's cinematically
Speaker 1: like cinematography was, Yeah, that is, it's it. It does
Speaker 1: feel it's pretty. I'm like, I don't understand cinematography like
Speaker 1: technically at all, but I'm like, they fucking pulled it
Speaker 1: off it. Yeah, it only makes you feel the story
Speaker 1: beats stronger. My partner is a cinematographer slash like director
Speaker 1: of photography, and like loves like. I mean, you can
Speaker 1: see we've got like these a weird little like colored
Speaker 1: lights all over, so I've started to understand it more,
Speaker 1: not unlike the lighting in Hustlers, so lots of like
Speaker 1: pinks and purples, which it's very hot. Um. I wanted
Speaker 1: to share another quote from Jacqueline Francis that's from the
Speaker 1: oral history of this movie. Who it was talking about
Speaker 1: being in the strip club that they used as like
Speaker 1: the set of this movie. So being on set, Jacqueline says,
Speaker 1: quote it was like a utopian strip club from days
Speaker 1: gone by. I felt so respected for my opinion and
Speaker 1: my expertise, coming from my background where sex work is
Speaker 1: stigmatized and considered not real work, and that we are disposable,
Speaker 1: and that violence against us is acceptable. It's really important
Speaker 1: to have compassionate and authentic representation of sex workers in
Speaker 1: mainstream media, and the only way that's going to be
Speaker 1: achieved is by hiring sex workers to play the parts
Speaker 1: and to consult on these films. People are constantly shifting
Speaker 1: on me all the time about strippers being dumb bitches.
Speaker 1: It's so toxic and it's violent. It results in literal
Speaker 1: violence against sex workers unquote. So that's just I mean,
Speaker 1: one of many things I deeply appreciate about this movie,
Speaker 1: which is that strippers were consulted and paid, paid and
Speaker 1: just had voices in terms of how strippers were represented
Speaker 1: in the in the movie. And because yeah, like she said,
Speaker 1: how this is the thesis of our show. How people
Speaker 1: are represented effects kind of public opinion and cultural perceptions
Speaker 1: of any particular. So so whyan earths would strippers not
Speaker 1: have a say in how in shaping their own cultural persona?
Speaker 1: Like right, it's so silly, Yeah, Jacqueline Francis is quote
Speaker 1: like every single quote I came across that she had
Speaker 1: ever said, I was like, she's a genius. She's so great,
Speaker 1: Like she's so artic, like just like the I don't
Speaker 1: know anytime someone can like get a thought into two sentences,
Speaker 1: I'm like, how did you do that. It takes us
Speaker 1: two hours to do that. Well, she also does these cartoons.
Speaker 1: Have you seen her? Like that's that's the way you
Speaker 1: have the little like words and the truth's, you know,
Speaker 1: paired with these like adorable little like cartoons watercolors. It's remarkable.
Speaker 1: She is one of the greatest artists for a time.
Speaker 1: And I really liked how and I'm curious what everyone
Speaker 1: thinks of how the Journalists is used to challenge assumptions
Speaker 1: made about strippers as well, because I feel like using
Speaker 1: that device and I mean, not only is it reflective
Speaker 1: of the fact that it was, you know, a journalist
Speaker 1: from a somewhat privileged background who wrote this story for
Speaker 1: New York Magazine originally, but even on top of that,
Speaker 1: I really liked that exchange between Destiny Slash, Dorothy and
Speaker 1: Elizabeth when Elizabeth is doing the journalism thing, where she's like, well,
Speaker 1: what about the crime, and that's you know, clearly what
Speaker 1: she has been sent to do. And we I mean,
Speaker 1: you barely notice as an audience member because it's so awesome,
Speaker 1: but like you've been focused on the relationship and the
Speaker 1: and the moment, the cultural moment for for most of
Speaker 1: the movie, and she's like, okay, but what about crime?
Speaker 1: And Destiny pushes back on this right away, and it's like, well,
Speaker 1: I don't want to be a part of some larger
Speaker 1: narrative that like I'm not quoting her exactly here, but
Speaker 1: I don't want to be a part of some larger
Speaker 1: stigma enforcing narrative that frames strippers as criminal a whole sale.
Speaker 1: So if that's what you're trying to do, I want
Speaker 1: no part in this, and even goes further to challenge
Speaker 1: Elizabeth on what her background is and like, can you
Speaker 1: really empathize with me with you know? It's and and
Speaker 1: I think, does something really really smart that you know,
Speaker 1: maybe a lesser journalist would have been scared and quit
Speaker 1: the story. And she was just like, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to be a part of a toxic narrative that,
Speaker 1: of course she would be well aware of. And I
Speaker 1: feel like it's almost that was almost like a clever
Speaker 1: riting way of talking to the audience too. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: just thought that that was like a a really cool moment. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Part of that is also I don't know if it's
Speaker 1: that same scene or not, but she asks Elizabeth, you know, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: did you grow up with money, and she's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm we were comfortable my dad like people saying people
Speaker 1: say comfortable. I'm like that shouldn't be allowed anymore. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's your way of downplaying the fact that you grew
Speaker 1: up in an upper middle class or like upper class family.
Speaker 1: So but anyway, that's that's I actually just watched Crazy
Speaker 1: Rich Asians and that's the thing when people say, wow,
Speaker 1: Constance Woo. Movies are full of this interaction. Uh wild um.
Speaker 1: But then she she Destiny challenges Elizabeth a little further
Speaker 1: and says, well, what would you do for a thousand dollars?
Speaker 1: Because of course the answer is going to depend on
Speaker 1: what you already have and what you need, because up
Speaker 1: until this point there's been this kind of like probably
Speaker 1: as objective as Elizabeth can make herself seen, but she's
Speaker 1: still like passing some judgment in terms of, like, you
Speaker 1: were drugging these people, and she's like, why are you
Speaker 1: fixated on that? Yeah, we were doing that, but also
Speaker 1: these guys were mainline and coke every day on their
Speaker 1: way to work, so like, but it just brings up
Speaker 1: this class conversation of a large part of Destiny's motivation
Speaker 1: is that she wants to be completely independent. She doesn't
Speaker 1: want to have to rely on anyone else financially. She
Speaker 1: says this multiple times in the movie. And for someone
Speaker 1: who grew up in what was clearly a pretty financially
Speaker 1: unstable situation, her grandmother seems to be the sole provider
Speaker 1: for her. She was in debt, her parents left her
Speaker 1: when she was young. You know, you know, she's coming
Speaker 1: from a low socioeconomic background and motivated by trying to
Speaker 1: get out of the cycle of poverty and wanting to
Speaker 1: be independent. And yeah, it goes back to that other
Speaker 1: quote from Jacqueline about surviving under capitalism and how like
Speaker 1: that's just kind of inherently problematic, and and it kind
Speaker 1: of like doubles as a commentary on how media is
Speaker 1: trained to view strippers and and sex workers as well,
Speaker 1: because of how it's like, I mean, and and Elizabeth
Speaker 1: kind of tries to do this again where I don't know,
Speaker 1: I mean, this is this is just how I interpreted
Speaker 1: her behavior in this scene. But later on, like I
Speaker 1: keep wanting to just call her Julia Styles, but like
Speaker 1: Julia Styles like leans in to destiny, and it's like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, I know I'm supposed to feel bad for
Speaker 1: the guys that this happened too, But I really don't.
Speaker 1: And I kind of viewed that from a journalistic perspective.
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, is she trying to kind of
Speaker 1: lead her to say something? And you know, I don't.
Speaker 1: I'm I mean, I saw her apartment. I don't think
Speaker 1: she really felt that way. Whatever I cannon, I don't know.
Speaker 1: But all that to say, then Destiny doesn't take the bait.
Speaker 1: And it's like, oh, that's interesting because there were times
Speaker 1: where I felt not good about the situation at all.
Speaker 1: And again it's like this supposedly objective source making an
Speaker 1: assumption about how the person they're in interviewing would feel
Speaker 1: based on this preconceived notion they have, and like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: those scenes are wild. I really appreciated the including that
Speaker 1: that is a device, just because I think it is
Speaker 1: a really important part of the coming of age sex
Speaker 1: worker story that we're sort of approaching in this In
Speaker 1: this movie, UM like, yes, you will meet a girl
Speaker 1: who will like consume you and possibly destroy you. She
Speaker 1: may exploit you, and lest you turn her into the cops,
Speaker 1: you will never get her back. And be careful when
Speaker 1: you talk to the media. Babes. They will make you
Speaker 1: know like they're not your friend. They're not trying to
Speaker 1: help you in any way. They are part of that
Speaker 1: strip club. You know, are they doing the dance because
Speaker 1: they're definitely not throwing money, So be mindful, be mindful.
Speaker 1: I like that part. Shall we talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about the production? Yeah, yes, So we referenced this a
Speaker 1: little earlier, and I know, I mean there's a million
Speaker 1: quotes from the oral history that supports this as well.
Speaker 1: But I was I didn't know much about the production
Speaker 1: of this movie, even though I've seen it a couple
Speaker 1: of times. And Loren Scafaria prior to this movie was
Speaker 1: she directed stuff, but she was I think better known
Speaker 1: as a writer. She had written this script and then
Speaker 1: it's just it's so typical, but it's like three years ago,
Speaker 1: so it's double annoying. I was like, oh, great, this
Speaker 1: was happening in amazing post times the time that it
Speaker 1: was up. Anyways, So Loren Scafaria basically was like really lobbying,
Speaker 1: like I want to direct this movie. And I believe
Speaker 1: like three or four big name male directors had to
Speaker 1: pass on making the movie before they would even consider her.
Speaker 1: And on top of that this movie was origin only
Speaker 1: with like the Annapurna production company, which they've made a
Speaker 1: bunch of famous movies. I can't think of any of
Speaker 1: them right now, but they're whatever. They exist. And oh,
Speaker 1: this is a quote from Elaine Goldsmith Thomas, who is
Speaker 1: one of the producers, and but she says of Annapurna,
Speaker 1: who eventually pulled out from this movie. Um, she says, quote,
Speaker 1: the male studio executives were a little uncomfortable. Everybody could
Speaker 1: see the commercial value of this movie, but they were like,
Speaker 1: can they just drug the bad guys? Can they just
Speaker 1: do that to people that deserve it? And so it
Speaker 1: just at almost every That's why I'm like so happy
Speaker 1: that this movie does exist and was directed not only
Speaker 1: by a woman, but by a woman who wanted to
Speaker 1: consult strippers and consult people who could make the story
Speaker 1: authentic in the way that it needed to be, because
Speaker 1: it sounds like the production originally had no intention of
Speaker 1: doing that. They're like, um, we're just going to let
Speaker 1: Martin Scorsese walk around and kind of guess his way
Speaker 1: through this. And it's like, thank god no one had
Speaker 1: to see that movie. He would have done what he
Speaker 1: did to Margot Robbie in Wolf of Wall Street the
Speaker 1: Scorsese cut. I have no desire to see things, but yeah.
Speaker 1: Jessica L. Baum, who is the founder of Glory of
Speaker 1: Sanchez Productions, who had originally bought the rights for like
Speaker 1: the article to make it into the film, had been
Speaker 1: the one to like go out to Martin Scorsese, and
Speaker 1: then Adam McKay was another possible contender to be the director,
Speaker 1: but then Lorraine Scarfaria was like, no, look, I can
Speaker 1: do this. I made this awesome sizzle reel and they're like,
Speaker 1: oh wow, this is a great reel. Okay, fine, you
Speaker 1: can direct the movie, which which is like, so I
Speaker 1: would be less annoyed by that if she were like
Speaker 1: an inexperienced director, like a sizzle real makes more sense
Speaker 1: when you're not already a well respected director. She shouldn't
Speaker 1: have had to do that to like prove she could
Speaker 1: direct her own script. It's stories like that makes me
Speaker 1: so annoyed. It's imperious. That's why do you want? Does
Speaker 1: anyone have anything else they want to discuss? Um? I
Speaker 1: wanted to note that I love love love, cannot say
Speaker 1: how much I love that. We don't know anything basically
Speaker 1: or care about any of the boyfriends in the stories.
Speaker 1: When you said his name was Johnny, I was like,
Speaker 1: was that his name? That I believe was his name?
Speaker 1: But the fact that we barely know is telling is
Speaker 1: Johnny a name. Johnny is not a name. Johnny is
Speaker 1: just like a young john. There's John's, there's Johnny's, and
Speaker 1: there's Jonathan. That's the name of the guy from the
Speaker 1: room john Johnny exactly. It's not a name name, it's Johnny.
Speaker 1: Johnny is a good right hand for like random young
Speaker 1: man Johnny here. Yeah. No, But I love that because
Speaker 1: I think so often when people talk about stories that
Speaker 1: like humanize sex with hers, they're like, yeah, what's it
Speaker 1: like when she goes home to her boyfriend fucking cares
Speaker 1: he's a douche bag, just like all the other men
Speaker 1: in her life, Like, sorry, my boyfriend, for the record
Speaker 1: is but I hate seeing that. It's just like such
Speaker 1: a boring like, oh you the fact that Destiny has
Speaker 1: a child, and like we see this moment that we
Speaker 1: just sort of like get sucked into, like the two
Speaker 1: thousand eight crash happens, Destiny gets pregnant. Suddenly there's this
Speaker 1: dude next to her. I was like, oh God, are
Speaker 1: we about to see this movie? I don't want to
Speaker 1: see this, but we weren't. Thank god we did not.
Speaker 1: Thank God. I think the only boyfriend of any who
Speaker 1: who is like I mean, I guess not extremely narratively relevant,
Speaker 1: but that is one of Kiki Palmer's motivations is to
Speaker 1: get her boyfriend who is in jail for I don't
Speaker 1: know if they tell you what it's for, but that
Speaker 1: that's the only boyfriend that I think comes up multiple
Speaker 1: times that she's trying to get her boyfriend legal assistance
Speaker 1: and and does end up and she's successful. Right, But yeah,
Speaker 1: that's treated as more just like not even a subplot,
Speaker 1: that's just like a few here and there. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like it's like wants a brain, she wants a heart. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I like that everyone does, even though it's like
Speaker 1: what I mean, for for Kiky Palmer's character and oh
Speaker 1: my god, Lily Reinhart's character definitely definitely know who she is,
Speaker 1: but they each have a scene that explains their why
Speaker 1: and that's all. That's all comes from the source material
Speaker 1: as well. That's good. So I liked that. Speaking of
Speaker 1: that really heart character, I um so from twenty I
Speaker 1: moved to l A L. I started taking REP around
Speaker 1: that time, which is pre exposure propyl axis UM, which
Speaker 1: is like a daily pill you take that prevents acquiring
Speaker 1: the HIV virus. It's like birth control for chid um.
Speaker 1: It was really hard on my stomach. So for those
Speaker 1: like two years eighteen, not only did I live in
Speaker 1: a tiny apartment with my cat, I was also the
Speaker 1: puking girl that just gone the moment when they like
Speaker 1: pulled up next to the cop and it's like everybody
Speaker 1: played cool. Everybody played cool, and then they finally pull
Speaker 1: away and she just barbs in front of like I've
Speaker 1: done that, Like that was puking. This like movie season
Speaker 1: was big for puk and girls because it was like
Speaker 1: Lily Reinhardt in this movie Annada Armas and Knives Out.
Speaker 1: It was like hit Girl City. That that Christmas season
Speaker 1: representation matters. Girls live alone with their cats and puke
Speaker 1: for no reason. We matter. There was a small moment
Speaker 1: that I felt very seen by where Destiny is describing
Speaker 1: this recurring dreams she's she has or she's in the
Speaker 1: backseat of a moving car. There's no one driving. She
Speaker 1: has to like scramble to get to the front seat
Speaker 1: to try to gain control of the vehicle. She can
Speaker 1: never do it. I've had that dream probably fifty or
Speaker 1: more times in my life. It is like one of
Speaker 1: my recurring stress nightmares. Yes, and I'm like to see
Speaker 1: that described and then like play out on screen. I
Speaker 1: was like, I feel seen. Yes, that sequence was so
Speaker 1: good too. I love dream sequences that are successfully pulled
Speaker 1: off or it's the thing is happening and you don't
Speaker 1: know that it's a dream until like right before you
Speaker 1: It's would be so good. Yeah, I'm so sorry you
Speaker 1: have that dream though. That sounds so stressful. Oh it's okay.
Speaker 1: I am clearly need to work on managing my anxiety
Speaker 1: versions of that dream. But it was I haven't had
Speaker 1: him since I was a kid, except when I was
Speaker 1: like I was in a station wagon and it was
Speaker 1: rolling backwards and I was like, I wonder when my
Speaker 1: Grandma's gonna pull the emergency brake and I was like, oh, no, no, grandma,
Speaker 1: there's no mamma. That might have been a princess diaries
Speaker 1: into a stream to be honest, because okay, um, can
Speaker 1: I ask some questions of you guys. I was absolutely
Speaker 1: I've talked to like a fair amount about like my
Speaker 1: experience in strip club life. But I'm curious about how
Speaker 1: much time y'all sputton strip clubs, what that's been like,
Speaker 1: Like what what your point of rock, because like it
Speaker 1: was very striking to me, I didn't spend I was
Speaker 1: never in a two thousand seven strip clubs, so that
Speaker 1: like big floor show. I've seen that when I was
Speaker 1: like on tour in like those big states that have
Speaker 1: like Walmart size strip clubs, but like a city strip
Speaker 1: club that popping I had never really quite seen before.
Speaker 1: And then the shot of the two thousand eight strip club,
Speaker 1: it like chilled my bones. I was like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is the strip club. I know it just like hurt inside.
Speaker 1: But I'm curious, what if anything your friend references for
Speaker 1: for those faces I was in a I think I
Speaker 1: went to my first of her strip club in two
Speaker 1: thousand nine, so not long after, because I had moved
Speaker 1: to New York right around the time the economy tanked
Speaker 1: and was struggling to find a job, and when I
Speaker 1: did finally find one, it was at a literary management
Speaker 1: company where one of the managers was like kind of
Speaker 1: doing that part time, but her main job was that
Speaker 1: she was the general manager of and I forget which
Speaker 1: club it was, but it was one of the more
Speaker 1: popular ship clubs in Manhattan. And so she would let
Speaker 1: my colleague and I at this literary management company come
Speaker 1: in for free. She would buy us drinks, she would
Speaker 1: buy us lap dances. So we would go and just
Speaker 1: like have a ball. Was it a place with food?
Speaker 1: Would you get to like get a meal or was
Speaker 1: it drinks? I think it was just drinks. Um. And
Speaker 1: then I've been to few other strip clubs in Albuquerque,
Speaker 1: New Mexico, Portland, Oregon, Los Angeles. I was with you
Speaker 1: in Portland. Yeah, we we went to one in Portland together.
Speaker 1: A listener of the show and worked at this club
Speaker 1: invited us for to come in for breakfast. It was
Speaker 1: very delightful. Wait, I'm about to go to Portland? Which
Speaker 1: strip club serves breakfast? What was We'll get you the
Speaker 1: name of the club. Well, yeah, we'll have to look
Speaker 1: up to it. Let me know, a couple of years ago.
Speaker 1: But it was fabulous. It was incredible. Strip clubs are special, yes, um,
Speaker 1: yeah I have. I have not spent a ton of
Speaker 1: time in strip clubs, but I think I go like
Speaker 1: once every two years. My first time was when in Massachusetts.
Speaker 1: It's it's like or I don't know how state to
Speaker 1: state this is, but I'm from Massachusetts and went to
Speaker 1: college there, and I was so excited to move to
Speaker 1: Boston because I wanted to go to a strip club
Speaker 1: so badly, and I just like I was especially as
Speaker 1: it teenager. I was so like fixated on stripper personas
Speaker 1: and like I read a ton of blogs and I
Speaker 1: was just like, I was so excited to go. And
Speaker 1: then I got to Boston. I was eighteen, and they
Speaker 1: didn't let anyone in under twenty one, so I ended
Speaker 1: up going to I ended up getting my dad to
Speaker 1: drive me to an eighteen plus night and I went
Speaker 1: to a strip club with my dad and oh my god,
Speaker 1: bless your goddamn heart. And we had amazing food and
Speaker 1: a great time. But it was my dad was way
Speaker 1: more uncomfortable than I was. I was like, this is
Speaker 1: this is incredible, this is the best, and everyone everything,
Speaker 1: everyone who worked there was so nice. And then once
Speaker 1: they figured out what our dynamic was, they were like, um, okay,
Speaker 1: and like but that that's my most memorable strip club experience.
Speaker 1: But it's amazing. Love that beautiful, I asked, because, um hey,
Speaker 1: I always say that. I think it's really important, like
Speaker 1: people when people ask, like what can we what can
Speaker 1: we do for a sex work or rights movement to
Speaker 1: make the world a less violent, despicable place for people
Speaker 1: who do this type of work. I always try to
Speaker 1: encourage people to come out about their consumption, you know,
Speaker 1: whether it's a great Portland's strip club experience with breakfast,
Speaker 1: or like a weird night out with you know, your
Speaker 1: relatives compatriots um or you know, like hey, I I
Speaker 1: subscribe to peg him dot com, or like, you know whatever,
Speaker 1: I admire this porn star or follow her on Twitter,
Speaker 1: just like take us out of the shadows when when
Speaker 1: it's safe for you to do so, because it's generally
Speaker 1: safer for you than it is for us to talk
Speaker 1: about like the this world society does not punish the
Speaker 1: consumer in the same way that they punish the practitioner,
Speaker 1: right in this instance. So I love that you guys
Speaker 1: have had positive experiences, which I fucking love a strip
Speaker 1: club I um um. I went on tour with Stormy
Speaker 1: Daniels when she was doing her strip club tour or
Speaker 1: after like her book, I was about to come out,
Speaker 1: I think. But I was registering voters in the clubs,
Speaker 1: and so I saw strip clubs all over this world,
Speaker 1: and just the some thing's like something shift of course,
Speaker 1: like region to region, Like some places you have to
Speaker 1: wear a gown if you're on the floor. Some places
Speaker 1: you have to have like a t strap thong or
Speaker 1: pastys or a new cover color, like all of these
Speaker 1: weird rules, which is why I store me um was
Speaker 1: arrested in um. Oh. This is one thing I wanted
Speaker 1: to say about the movie. I think in that first
Speaker 1: sequence where we see Jennifer Lopez dancing, she motor boats
Speaker 1: somebody right or some variety. She like rubs her her
Speaker 1: boobs and somebody's paces. That is the move that got
Speaker 1: Stormy Daniel's arrested in Columbus. She was set up on
Speaker 1: a sting. These white women came in as undercover cops
Speaker 1: were hitting me up. They're like, oh I love Stormy.
Speaker 1: They were undercovers, and they initiated that move and because
Speaker 1: like laws very state to state, they arrested her and
Speaker 1: a bunch of other girls, including girls I had registered
Speaker 1: to vote that night, who were like terrified, like please, okay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give you my legal name to registered to vote,
Speaker 1: Like that's a scary thing to do in a strip
Speaker 1: club when you're trying to keep your legal name private.
Speaker 1: And I was like, I swear to you, only me
Speaker 1: and the registrar of voters are going to know who
Speaker 1: you are. Except then the cops came and arrested them,
Speaker 1: and their names were in the paper the next day,
Speaker 1: and that girl wasn't get to get nursed anymore. But also,
Speaker 1: sorry to be a downer on what we were having
Speaker 1: a very name conversation, but it's these these issues are important.
Speaker 1: I think that like when folks watch um and consume
Speaker 1: entertainment about this industry, it's important to know the reality
Speaker 1: is that base even like the most privileged among us,
Speaker 1: I mean Sworemy Daniels is like the whitest, blondest dallist
Speaker 1: slept with the presidentist uh, you know, sex worker of
Speaker 1: our our generation and still like a cop with an
Speaker 1: agenda can take her out if he wants. So. Great movie, though,
Speaker 1: it's great. Hustlers rules, Hustlers rules. Yes, I'm I like
Speaker 1: this movie. I will watch it again. Like I said,
Speaker 1: I think it's a dance movie, and dance movies are
Speaker 1: like my number one, So this goes in the butt
Speaker 1: like I will put this on before center stage and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, make a night of it. Just drumline counter. Yeah,
Speaker 1: absolutely awesome. Any other thoughts questions, I've I have one
Speaker 1: more question for you, Susie on behalf of us but
Speaker 1: also our listeners. Is there I guess for our listeners
Speaker 1: who are just starting to learn more, what can they
Speaker 1: do to be supportive? What can they do? Like? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that the for for kind of the lay listener and
Speaker 1: the lay listener, where would you suggest? Well, if you
Speaker 1: want to stay in touch with me, I can I
Speaker 1: encourage you to do so? I am always harassing people
Speaker 1: who follow me about getting out the vote, um, calling
Speaker 1: your elected representatives about you know, there's always legislation in
Speaker 1: the works. There's always a politician with an agenda who
Speaker 1: wants to use our communities escapegoate. So there's always work
Speaker 1: to be done. So if you want to keep in touch,
Speaker 1: shoot me a text at four one five five eight
Speaker 1: nine one eight five and I'll send that to you. Guys,
Speaker 1: you can put in the show notes. It is my
Speaker 1: personal direct line, but it's also a way for you
Speaker 1: to access my email list. So um email is terrible.
Speaker 1: I never check it and I don't think you should either.
Speaker 1: But I do check my text messages because I'm an
Speaker 1: elder millennial UM, so that's a great way to stay connected.
Speaker 1: But also check out pass certified dot org p a
Speaker 1: s S certified dot org. That is the health and
Speaker 1: Safety organization UM that focuses on health and safety and
Speaker 1: legal industry and provides like regulatory recommendations around like what
Speaker 1: s T I S we test for when we have
Speaker 1: a production hole due to COVID or somebody test positive
Speaker 1: for HIV, things of that nature. And find the adult
Speaker 1: performer that you support and pay them, whether it's cash app, venmo,
Speaker 1: the afternoon strip club, brunch, buffet, whatever you can do
Speaker 1: to support individual sex workers directly. That is the most
Speaker 1: important thing that you can do, because every one of
Speaker 1: us is struggling. You know, even folks who are who
Speaker 1: seem to be you live in that life on on
Speaker 1: Instagram is one second away from losing that Instagram and
Speaker 1: that way of making money. So find ways to support
Speaker 1: your local sex worker directly and do so. And if
Speaker 1: you would like to do that to me, you can.
Speaker 1: You can follow my mostly safer work pursuits at the
Speaker 1: forecast dot com. That's my Patreon page. Um, it'll Repute
Speaker 1: pod is the Twitter for my podcast will Repute podcast.
Speaker 1: I am by my friend's sovereign sire who is also
Speaker 1: amportant star. Yeah, she is to perform at the comedy
Speaker 1: venue that I ran at a wild Nerd medal. She
Speaker 1: would come for different like storytelling shows and other were
Speaker 1: just like comedics, the best storytelling performances. Yeah, so we
Speaker 1: um take different people and figures throughout history of ill repute.
Speaker 1: Initially it was sex workers, but now it's just like
Speaker 1: people with reputations that are you know, history didn't get
Speaker 1: right and so we nerd out. And this last week
Speaker 1: where we covered Gidget, which is one of my favorite films,
Speaker 1: definitely doesn't pass the Bechtel testum, not at all. But
Speaker 1: so yeah, that's that's mostly where you can find me.
Speaker 1: The Daddy Issue dot com and your American Babe dot
Speaker 1: com is where you can find my spicy things. Very good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you for sharing all that. Speaking of the Bechtel
Speaker 1: test oh my goodness already No, I'm not ready. Insteady drumroll,
Speaker 1: please does this movie pass the Bactel the yes, yes,
Speaker 1: that's a lot. What I always like to find out,
Speaker 1: like at what point, like are we five minutes in?
Speaker 1: Are we ten minutes? And I didn't look like it's
Speaker 1: almost immediately yeah, I mean, for there are plenty of
Speaker 1: interactions in this movie where men are the subtext of
Speaker 1: a conversation, but there's also I mean, I guess whatever,
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't do a math problem about it,
Speaker 1: but I would guess that more almost more often than not,
Speaker 1: conversations between women are not about men. They're about money,
Speaker 1: they're about business, they're about daughters or about mothers. They're
Speaker 1: about friendship, they're about for coats, journalistic ethics, they're like yeah.
Speaker 1: And when they are talking about men um they're often
Speaker 1: saying things like they're awful and degrading and possessive and
Speaker 1: violent and they never get into into any trouble because
Speaker 1: they think they're a of the law because they're so rich,
Speaker 1: and all these guys tank the economy and it's their fault.
Speaker 1: They lied and they cheated and they stole, but none
Speaker 1: of them went to jail. These assholes blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: Shakespearean monologues, like some some of Ramona's monologues are literally
Speaker 1: like shakes soliloquy, Oh my god, who wouldn't be taken
Speaker 1: in there's not a high opinion of a certain kind
Speaker 1: of man in this movie, which is how they justify
Speaker 1: their illegal actions. Who. I will say that the Doug
Speaker 1: is the guy that we feel sorry for, Like, but
Speaker 1: even before Doug, the first guy that she calls, that's
Speaker 1: like the last on the list of regulars before she
Speaker 1: go back to the strip club. Stephen, Stephen, I would
Speaker 1: say that both of those guys were humanized in a
Speaker 1: way that we don't typically get to see. Um, consumers
Speaker 1: of sex were humanized, And I think that that's really
Speaker 1: important because the first step when people say like yes,
Speaker 1: sex worker rights, Okay, great, we'll just criminalize the consumer.
Speaker 1: And that's what really is getting pushed in in a
Speaker 1: lot of places these days with the Nordic model or
Speaker 1: um Oregon. Some places are calling it the liberty or
Speaker 1: the justice the equality model or just garbage, double garbage,
Speaker 1: double speak. But yeah, it's nice to see that. Yeah, Okay,
Speaker 1: not every one of these guys was a piece of ship,
Speaker 1: Like people consume things that you are selling, and right, yeah,
Speaker 1: you can't. You can't decriminalize and destigmatize sex work without
Speaker 1: also having empathy for the people who want to engage
Speaker 1: with it and consume it so or just like wholesale demonizing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought that this movie like towed the ethics line
Speaker 1: and the consumer line pretty smart because it's also like
Speaker 1: very location specific of like totally these are Wall Street
Speaker 1: bankers and and it's and this this happens in that
Speaker 1: it's referenced constantly in the article as well, where you know,
Speaker 1: the parts of this that are criminal are as we've
Speaker 1: been talking about, like it's a survival based thing that
Speaker 1: is being done. And I I kind of appreciated that
Speaker 1: the movie doesn't mire you down with like, well, what
Speaker 1: are the ethics of this? It's like that's separate, Like
Speaker 1: you can have that discussion on the ride home. That's
Speaker 1: not what the movie is about. But then on the
Speaker 1: other side, Yeah, you do see the empathetic like genuinely
Speaker 1: caring people who we're we're at this club and actually
Speaker 1: making like friendships and like actually talking to the dancers
Speaker 1: and getting to know them, And I don't know's I
Speaker 1: thought it was like well done. How you do see
Speaker 1: the flip side of like it's not like this didn't
Speaker 1: do harm And that also seems to be something that
Speaker 1: Destiny was really bothered by by the end, which I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's so easy to see Destiny and Ramona's perspective
Speaker 1: in that moment, and it was cool to see kind
Speaker 1: of that split and that like dilemma represented without the
Speaker 1: movie telling you how to feel about it totally. One
Speaker 1: piece that about like class that was in there that
Speaker 1: I think is maybe wouldn't stick out to someone outside
Speaker 1: the industry. But the piece about like the folks with
Speaker 1: the most money are the ones who are going to
Speaker 1: push your boundaries. And I remember when I started doing
Speaker 1: in person work outside of the club, you know, like
Speaker 1: two thousand and ten eleven ish, you know, rates varied
Speaker 1: between like a couple hundred on up to like closer
Speaker 1: to you know, four figures. And I remember a friend
Speaker 1: of mine being like, Yeah, I don't want to see
Speaker 1: guys that will pay X amount of money. I I
Speaker 1: like my clients who pay a little bit less. It's
Speaker 1: just safer that way. And that's been my experience that like,
Speaker 1: the more money someone is willing to part with, the
Speaker 1: more they expect to be able to do whatever they
Speaker 1: want and get away with it. Um And we see
Speaker 1: that specter a little tiny bit, but that specter is
Speaker 1: much larger in real life. M And I think that
Speaker 1: like this is like a little bit of a parable
Speaker 1: about the hustle. You know. It's just like the thrill
Speaker 1: of and the temptation of these like massive amounts of
Speaker 1: money is there as soon as you enter the sex industry.
Speaker 1: But like the more money you get into, the higher
Speaker 1: the risk goes up. And like that is why I
Speaker 1: think it's so important that we approached discussions about sex
Speaker 1: work with our feet firmly planted in like labor activism
Speaker 1: practice of just like we are workers fundamentally, and like, yes,
Speaker 1: there is the jackpot, but we are we have to
Speaker 1: fight for, you know, like safety nets for all of us,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, There has to be like
Speaker 1: a baseline of safety. Like if you get lost in
Speaker 1: the sauce, you'll get got And that's so much what
Speaker 1: this movie shows. But it's way easier to get lost
Speaker 1: in the sauce when the pressures of capitalism are like
Speaker 1: literally breathing down your neck, right. And it's like, I mean,
Speaker 1: Ramona is like using Wall Street tactics to Robin Hood
Speaker 1: from Wall Street guy, Like it I don't know, there's
Speaker 1: I can talk about this movie for five years. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: with that in mind, let's rate the movie on our
Speaker 1: nipple scale zero to five nipples based on how affairs.
Speaker 1: Looking at it from an intersectional feminist lens, I really
Speaker 1: can't think of a reason why not to give this
Speaker 1: movie five nipples. Yeah, I don't really have anything bad
Speaker 1: to say about it. I mean, there are five nipples
Speaker 1: in this film. There are at least five. There are
Speaker 1: at least five nipples that we see so like, and
Speaker 1: and a full frontal penis in a non erotic capacity,
Speaker 1: which I always like. I mean, you can't really show,
Speaker 1: but it's like a well definitely a moment. Right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm I think I'm gonna give this five nipples. Uh.
Speaker 1: I love that this is a movie about female friendship
Speaker 1: in that friendship is it's complicated, it's nuanced. It feels
Speaker 1: very authentic and real and compelling. I'm like very much
Speaker 1: rooting for them to like get back together by the
Speaker 1: end of the story, totally get the band back together,
Speaker 1: even though the reconciliation, like you know, it would be
Speaker 1: a lot for Ramona to forgive Destiny for they need
Speaker 1: to bring a mediator, get a mediator in the mix
Speaker 1: for this, I know pro bono therapy. I love that
Speaker 1: that friendship is at the core of this film. I
Speaker 1: appreciate the class commentary. I appreciate you learning about the
Speaker 1: interior lives of sex workers. We learned so much about
Speaker 1: not only the two main characters, but several of the
Speaker 1: other women at the club. I love that you get
Speaker 1: to see women defying the expectation to be quote unquote
Speaker 1: well behaved because they're such a high standard in society.
Speaker 1: And this sixtense to movie characters where like women just
Speaker 1: have to be perfect and they're not allowed to do
Speaker 1: anything bad, and if they are, they get punished for it,
Speaker 1: and usually by like being fridged in the story. And
Speaker 1: in this movie, it is all about them engaging in
Speaker 1: like morally questionable and corrupt behavior. Like how many movies
Speaker 1: like not like this plot point for a plot point,
Speaker 1: but how many movies are about does a group of
Speaker 1: men doing extremely illegal ings, not even for a reason,
Speaker 1: not for a reason, and and and like they're not
Speaker 1: punished for it at all, And it's like who, yeah,
Speaker 1: go and murder everyone who comes and across your path,
Speaker 1: Like yeah, So I appreciate that this, you know, subverts
Speaker 1: that expectation for for women to just always be on
Speaker 1: their best behavior and always be adhering to what society
Speaker 1: expects of women. And um, I appreciate that it's a
Speaker 1: diverse cast and not just a bunch of white, waspy women. Yes,
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna give this five nipples. And I gotta
Speaker 1: give one to Lizzo. Good cameo, good cameo, the flute
Speaker 1: and everything. Oh the titt fucking that I think it
Speaker 1: was on Jacqueline not oh yeah, not only did j
Speaker 1: Lo grab Jacqueline Francis titties Lizzou Like, how is she
Speaker 1: even live her life? Right there? I'll give one to Jacqueline.
Speaker 1: I'll give one to writer director Lorraine Scafaria. I will
Speaker 1: give one to the montage where Britney spears. Give me
Speaker 1: more is playing over it. I'll give one to Constance
Speaker 1: Wou And I don't know how many nipples that is,
Speaker 1: but it sounds like enough. Sounds right? Yeah, Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go five nipples as well. This is like, this
Speaker 1: movie delivers on so many levels. I feel like we
Speaker 1: could talk about it for another two hours if we
Speaker 1: wanted to, Like I I just I mean, on on
Speaker 1: top of what I'm really glad to hear from you.
Speaker 1: Susie seems to be like an authentic representation of strippers,
Speaker 1: that strippers are actively consulted, compensated, and intimately involved in
Speaker 1: the production. That is incredible, the fact that we are
Speaker 1: we have these really complicated stories about women disagreeing and
Speaker 1: misbehaving and having different standards of ethics and ideas, but
Speaker 1: but having it all come into this like really strong
Speaker 1: relationship that you totally understand, but you're also like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, Like even when you understand and see how
Speaker 1: things fall apart between Ramona and Destiny, and even if
Speaker 1: you don't, you know, I agree with everything they do,
Speaker 1: it's like you're rooting for them to be together and
Speaker 1: in each other's life still, and it's just like, it's
Speaker 1: such incredible writing. I liked that there was care taken
Speaker 1: that even the characters that aren't the main characters, we
Speaker 1: understand what their motivations are. They have distinct personalities, they
Speaker 1: have friendships, they have opinions, they have disagreements, and it
Speaker 1: all just fits so seamlessly into a movie with perfect
Speaker 1: dance scenes and perfect soundtrack and really good cinematography. And
Speaker 1: I just loved it so I will I will give
Speaker 1: uh nipple to Jacqueline as well. I'll give a nipple
Speaker 1: to Cardi b I'll give a nipple to Ryin Scafaria.
Speaker 1: I'll give a nipple to the editor of this movie,
Speaker 1: whose work we didn't shut up but was really good
Speaker 1: kaylea empter. And I'll give a nipple to Kiki Palmer.
Speaker 1: Nice living legend. I love your rating system. Care to rate?
Speaker 1: Oh sure, yeah, I mean obviously five nipples for sure. UM,
Speaker 1: I have to give one too. I should pull up
Speaker 1: this quote, but I just remember. Shortly before or after
Speaker 1: this movie dropped. I remember Cardi got some like flak
Speaker 1: for coming out and being like, yeah, Robin men, we
Speaker 1: love to see it. I don't remember what she said,
Speaker 1: and she was like, yes, sometimes you have to rob
Speaker 1: a trick, right, No, okay, I didn't. I thought I
Speaker 1: just made you see a movie. UM. I don't remember
Speaker 1: that controversy just makes you love her so to you
Speaker 1: so much. UM. I don't endorse committing crimes, of course,
Speaker 1: um for legal reasons, but definitely worthy of a nipple. UM.
Speaker 1: And I would love to know if Diamond was Cardi's
Speaker 1: name when she was dancing us easy to find somewhere
Speaker 1: if it's true. But yeah, five nipples, hands down a
Speaker 1: nipple to whoever hired and got Jacqueline paid. I'm sure
Speaker 1: that Jacqueline had a lot to do with actually making
Speaker 1: that happen, But whoever was the gatekeeper that opened the
Speaker 1: gate to actually make that real? Because I can't tell
Speaker 1: you how many times all of us have been in
Speaker 1: a situation where somebody wants to pick your brain for
Speaker 1: a movie or ask you a couple of things, and like,
Speaker 1: the likelihood of you getting credit paid screen time is
Speaker 1: just so small, So major props to the folks that
Speaker 1: that got that happening. Um. I don't know who the
Speaker 1: rest of my nipples go to, but like everybody, redistribute
Speaker 1: the nipples, redistribute the noble. Absolutely take that Wall Street,
Speaker 1: all those Wall Street nipples and redistribute it back to
Speaker 1: the people. Absolutely occupy the nipple. But yeah, I will
Speaker 1: watch this movie again and again. I will swap this
Speaker 1: movie out for a center stage or dirty dancing when
Speaker 1: I like need to feel that feeling. Um, a nipple
Speaker 1: for the training montage. A really crucial component of any
Speaker 1: like sports or dance movie is the training montage, which
Speaker 1: this really delivered. On. You know it's it's a very magical,
Speaker 1: magical film, and I have to I feel like I
Speaker 1: have to give a nipple to like the collective, problematic,
Speaker 1: toxic them that has been in my life in different
Speaker 1: iterations throughout my time as a sex worker and will continue,
Speaker 1: I'm sure or until I'm dead, and is personified in
Speaker 1: the archetypes for trade in this film. A nipple for
Speaker 1: each of those girls that I've loved and no longer beautiful.
Speaker 1: A nipple to all the girls I love before uh
Speaker 1: shout out to another great movie exactly Well, Susie, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us and having this wonderful discussion.
Speaker 1: My pleasure. Come back anytime I'm doing another dance movie.
Speaker 1: I would love to. I I warned you like I
Speaker 1: have despicable taste in film, and I am completely proud
Speaker 1: of it. Like perfect. I am John Waters child and
Speaker 1: I am here to play if I haven't done John
Speaker 1: Waters movies. Oh please, anytime, anytime you want to talk
Speaker 1: John Waters. My dad's from Baltimore. I it's a little
Speaker 1: bit of a religion in my life. Here for it
Speaker 1: remind us where people can support you and follow you
Speaker 1: on social media and stuff. I'll repute podcast dot com,
Speaker 1: Your American Babe dot com, Daddy Issue dot com. You
Speaker 1: can find me on Instagram at your Americans Amazing. You
Speaker 1: can find us on not all of the socials, the
Speaker 1: socials that we use, which our Twitter and Instagram at
Speaker 1: Bechtel Cast. You can support our Patreon ak Matreon at
Speaker 1: patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast for five dollars a
Speaker 1: myth to get to bonus episodes every single month. What
Speaker 1: a treat couple. And we also have merch We do
Speaker 1: have merchants at public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast.
Speaker 1: All of it was designed by Jamie. By the way,
Speaker 1: I don't think we shot that out enough, but it's true.
Speaker 1: That's very cool, so all the more reason to grab
Speaker 1: some merch and other wise, thanks for tuning in, and
Speaker 1: um hey, let's all go to a strip club? Okay? Yes,
Speaker 1: oh quick, quick public service announcement. When you go to
Speaker 1: a strip club, always tip, even if you're not getting
Speaker 1: a dance like you know, I mean, like most people
Speaker 1: know that, I think. But in case for the lay listener,
Speaker 1: if you're gonna go, especially if you are like a
Speaker 1: fem presenting person, because let me tell you when you
Speaker 1: are on that stage and you look at and you
Speaker 1: see a bunch of girls and you think that they're
Speaker 1: like saying mean things about you. It ruined your entire night.
Speaker 1: So if you are a firm presenting person, you go
Speaker 1: to the strip club, go to the front. Tip the girl,
Speaker 1: make sure she knows you're not a girl. It'll help awesome.
Speaker 1: But thank you for that. Thank you, Bye bye bye, y'all.