1 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,359 Speaker 1: Dalton Pace was a large man who ran a junkyard 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: out of his home into Cater, Alabama. He was known 3 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: to carry large amounts of cash. On August nineteenth, nineteen 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: ninety three, after a brutal fight, someone shot Dalton Pace 5 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: and stole that cash. Meanwhile, thirty five miles away, Gary 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: Drinkerd's daughter and neighbors were delivering a litter of puppies 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: while Gary was there laid up on the couch with 8 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: a back injury on heavy pain meds, definitely in no 9 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: shape to fight anyone, let alone a man the size 10 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: of Dalton Pace. When Gary's half sister, Beverly Robinson and 11 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 1: her boyfriend Rex Segar were dealing with their own significant 12 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 1: legal troubles, they tried to trade a lleged information about 13 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: Dalton Pace's murder for leniency, claiming that Gary was the killer. 14 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: To corroborate those false claims, Beverly wore a wire between 15 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: her legs while trying to coax them words out of Gary, 16 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: But whenever Gary denied involvement, Beverly would rub her thighs together, 17 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 1: making his denials inaudible. Then the lead detective took it 18 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: upon himself to testify a trial about Gary's alleged taped confession. 19 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,919 Speaker 1: It took a literal dream team of lawyers to undo 20 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:25,559 Speaker 1: those lies, including the great Brian Stevenson and our returning guest, 21 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: the eminent attorney Richard Jeffy. However, nothing will ever make 22 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: up for all that lost time Gary spent on death row. 23 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: This this Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flopp. Welcome back to 24 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason flamm That's me. I'm your host, 25 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: and today I'm actually almost a little nervous because I've 26 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: not one, but two people who I just look up 27 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: to so much. One you'll recognize, Richard Jaffey, is one 28 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: of the most prolific and successful death penalty lawyers in 29 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: the country. Richard, Welcome back to Ronful Conviction. 30 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. 31 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 3: Jaison. 32 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: Great to be here, and with him is someone who 33 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 1: he speaks of in the Reverend tones, and he's not 34 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: the only one. His story will anger you, but his 35 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: spirit will inspire you. Gary Drinkard, Welcome to Wronful Conviction. 36 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 3: Oh, thank you so much. It's wonderful to be here. 37 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: Let's start at the beginning. First of all, Gary, did 38 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: you grow up in Alabama? 39 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 4: I did I've been all up in the north and 40 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 4: out west and everything. I always came back to Alabama. 41 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: For the most part. You know, until this insane fate 42 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: befel you, things were pretty good. Is that fair to say? Oh? 43 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, everything was going great. 44 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 4: I had just followed fourteen acres of land and enrolled 45 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 4: into college. We were fixing to build a dream home. 46 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 4: And then bam, everything goes crazy. 47 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, and everything really did go crazy. And just to 48 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 1: set the stage, we're talking about the afternoon of August nineteenth, 49 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, when the body of Dalton Pace was 50 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: found in his Decatur, Alabama home. He had been shot 51 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,839 Speaker 1: twice in the back and once in the head. Now, 52 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: mister Pace ran a junk yard out of his home 53 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: and was known for carrying large rolls of cash. He 54 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 1: was a guy who didn't trust banks, so he was 55 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: a logical target for somebody, and all of the cash, 56 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: except for the contents of his wallet, had been stolen. So, Richard, 57 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: take us back to this crime, because what's going to 58 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: become clear as we go along is that it was 59 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: actually totally impossible for Gary to have committed this crime. 60 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: But somehow or other, long before you even heard about 61 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: the case. He was convicted anyway and sentenced to death. 62 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 2: This is really an extraordinary case because Gary was thirty 63 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 2: five miles away and when the authorities got there they 64 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 2: found a bottle of whiskey in a glass and they 65 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: didn't even fingerprint these two items. After a couple of weeks, 66 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 2: the investigation went nowhere, and suddenly Beverly Robinson, who happened 67 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 2: to be Gary's half sister, went to the police and 68 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: she said, I can help you find who killed Dalton Pace. 69 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 2: She said it's my half brother, Gary Drinkard and they said, well, 70 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 2: you got any corroboration to that? They said, yeah, I'm 71 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 2: my boyfriend Rex Seegers, who I live with, and that's it. 72 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 2: At which point they said you're going to have to 73 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 2: give us more than that. So they wired her up, 74 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 2: sent her over to Gary's home around six thirty or 75 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 2: so in the morning, sat there drinking coffee with Gary, 76 00:04:55,760 --> 00:05:00,040 Speaker 2: wired up with Detective Gary Walker in a van, and 77 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 2: like you see on TV, down the street listening in 78 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 2: real time, Beverly Robinson had brought a newspaper of the 79 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 2: account and then started reading from the newspaper and asking 80 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 2: Gary questions about the crime, as if Gary might have 81 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 2: known something, and every time Gary answered the question, the 82 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:25,559 Speaker 2: tap was not legible because, and we found this out later, 83 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 2: Beverly's wire was between her legs and she would rub 84 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 2: her legs together every time. She would try to get 85 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 2: Gary to incriminate himself, and he never did. 86 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: She was almost sort of editing the tape for the cops. Gary, 87 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,799 Speaker 1: when did you first find out that you were considered 88 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: a suspect? 89 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 3: Oh? 90 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 4: I had no clue until the police came one morning 91 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 4: and busted my door open. They had a search more 92 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 4: for marijuana. It was a quarter ounce, and they were 93 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 4: looking for everything except marijuana. They threw my wife and 94 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 4: myself on the ground, handcuffed us. They drug my kids 95 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 4: out of the bedrooms. One of them stuck a gun 96 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 4: to my son's face, leaving the bruise. They made my 97 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 4: sixteen year old daughter and her friend come out of 98 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 4: the back bedroom, wouldn't let them get a dressed. They 99 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 4: run their bra and panties in front of all those police, 100 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 4: and I was just outraged. I didn't find out until 101 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 4: two weeks after I had been arrested for the marijuana 102 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 4: that I was implicated in a murder. 103 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: The idea that they were willing to bust up your 104 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: house and manhandle your family in a way that they 105 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: did for a quarter ound supot. Of course, we know 106 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: that that wasn't really what they were after, but that's 107 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: the idea that it could be used as a pretext 108 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: to go in and bust up a house and a 109 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: family like that. That can't go on anymore. 110 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 4: Amazingly enough, it was dry in that area of marijuana 111 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 4: at the time. 112 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,359 Speaker 3: Beverly's the one that sold it to me. 113 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 4: They knew exactly where to go find it, and I'm 114 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 4: really believing that they gave to her to sell to me. 115 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: Wow. 116 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's important to realize that Beverly and 117 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 2: Rex had also been busted and both of them were 118 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 2: facing serious criminal charges. And Rex was on parole from Oklahoma, 119 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 2: and he was facing forty years if he screwed up 120 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 2: his parole, but as a career criminal, he was looking 121 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 2: at a LFE sentence in Alabama. So both of them 122 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 2: were hugely motivated to try to give them Gary a 123 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 2: likely suspect in their mind, if they could get Geary 124 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 2: to confess to something he wouldn't confess to and didn't do. 125 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: Now, Dalton Pace was not a small guy. Right, this 126 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: is a big, strong man who put up a tremendous struggle, 127 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: and that plays into the story as well. Gary, forget 128 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: the fact that you had an airtight alibi because you 129 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: were thirty five miles away and there was a particular 130 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: reason why your alibi was so tight. Just explain to 131 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: the audience what was going on that very day when 132 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: mister was murdered. 133 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 4: I had bought fourteen acres of land, and the neighbor 134 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 4: had gave my daughter a Pickanese dog that was pregnant. 135 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 4: She wanted to pick of the litter of the puppies, 136 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 4: and she told us when she started having the puppies 137 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 4: to call her and she would come out there and 138 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 4: help us birth them. So the night of the murder, 139 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 4: which I knew nothing about, we called the lady and 140 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 4: she came over to the house with her boyfriend and 141 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 4: she was back with my daughter helping her birth the 142 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 4: puppies as her boyfriend and I were sitting in the 143 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 4: living room watching the news. 144 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: And you were also in no physical shape to murder 145 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: anybody at the time, right. 146 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 4: No, I was on strong muscle lectures and I was 147 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 4: laid up on the couch and from a back injury. 148 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 1: Is it fair to say that you couldn't have even 149 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: driven to thirty five miles, much less got out of 150 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: the car and gone it. Struggled with a big, strong man. 151 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 4: I could have actually driven there, but I couldn't have 152 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 4: struggled with him and overcame anything. 153 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: So, Richard, how the hell did they build a care 154 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: with no evidence? And how were they able to convince 155 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: a jury that he did it when it should have 156 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: been obvious to anyone that these snitches were incentivized and 157 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: in all likelihood were the actual perpetrators. 158 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 2: Well, it's a great question because Geary was appointed for 159 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 2: that first trial three local lawyers, but none of them 160 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 2: were experienced criminal lawyers, and especially not in the death 161 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 2: penalty arena. They didn't call the doctor that treated Geary 162 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 2: that would have explained the extent of his condition. The 163 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 2: fingernail scrapings that were on the deceased Dalton pace. They 164 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 2: didn't even challenge that they weren't tested, nor that fingerprints 165 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 2: that were taken from the whiskey wasn't compared to Rex 166 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 2: or to Beverly. They didn't do any of that. What 167 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 2: they did was they called Beverly as the chief witness 168 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 2: and they called the detective that had engineered the wired 169 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 2: conversation with Gary and Beverly. And here's the kicker. That 170 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 2: particular detective told the jury that while he couldn't hear 171 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 2: all of what was on the tape, he was able 172 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 2: to hear that Geary said to Beverly, the old man 173 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 2: grabbed me, and you know, I had no choice but 174 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: to shoot him, which was never on there. But the 175 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 2: lawyers unfortunately let that slide, and the jury believed the 176 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 2: detective that Geary had confessed when he didn't. 177 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: You no, jury's can be misled fairly easily when people 178 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: in positions of power view that power. And that's exactly 179 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: what happened here. Now, the jury didn't deliberate very long. 180 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, approximately an hour. 181 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 4: The judge had told one of his secretaries, and it 182 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 4: got back to my mother that if I put on 183 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 4: some type of mitigating evidence that he would give me 184 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 4: a life without problem. Well, I wasn't about to get 185 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 4: my mother up there begging and crying for my life 186 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 4: when I hadn't done anything, and I didn't put on 187 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 4: any mitigating evidence, and I was found guilty and sentenced 188 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 4: to death. And that was devastating because I figured, well, 189 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 4: I'm going down there with the worst of the worst. 190 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 4: I've got to be watching my back all the time. 191 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: I think it's a lot of people's worst nightmare and 192 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: you were living it. Can you just give us a 193 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: sense of death row in Alabama? You know, take us 194 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:30,839 Speaker 1: inside that cell if you can't. 195 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 4: Well, it was a little five by eight concrete cell. 196 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 4: I mean most people's bathrooms are larger than that. 197 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 3: It was nasty. 198 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 4: They would give you clean and supplies, but you couldn't 199 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 4: keep it clean. There was cockroaches three inches long, rats 200 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 4: running around, insane people hollering. We had a man I 201 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 4: was on the second tier. There was a man on 202 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 4: the first tier. He would holler twenty four hours a 203 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 4: day day. There were people committing suicide trying to beat 204 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 4: the executioner. There were people committing suicide because they were 205 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 4: in so much pain and the doctors wouldn't help them. 206 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 4: Your friends get sent to be executed. If the wind's 207 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 4: blown right, you can smell burning flash. It was unreal. 208 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by the AIG pro Bono Program. 209 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: AIG is a leading global insurance company, and for over 210 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: a decade, the AIG pro Bono program has provided thousands 211 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: of hours of free legal services and other support to 212 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need. More recently, the 213 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: program added criminal and social justice reform as a key 214 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 1: pillar of its mission. The Pacers Foundation is a proud 215 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: supporter of this episod of Wraful Convision with Jason Flam 216 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: and of the Last Mile Organization, which provides business and 217 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 1: tech training to help incarcerated individuals successfully and permanently re 218 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: enter the workforce. The Pacers Foundation is committed to improving 219 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: the lives of Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting organizations that are 220 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: dedicated primarily to helping young people and students. For more 221 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: information on the work of the Pacers Foundation or the 222 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: Last Mile Program, please visit Pacersfoundation dot org or the 223 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 1: Lastmile dot org. I was rereading your chapter in Richard's 224 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: wonderful book Quest for Justice Defending the Damned. It's the 225 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 1: second edition. The stories are really brilliantly told. You really 226 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: get a chance to be inside the mind of one 227 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: of the great courtroom lawyers of our time in life 228 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: or death situations. So I think you'll enjoy reading it. 229 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: But as I was rereading that chapter today, I was 230 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: thinking about you. Somehow or other went from I don't 231 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 1: know what you want to call it the outhouse of 232 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: the penthouse in terms of your legal representation, because you 233 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: ended up having the great Brian Stevenson get you a retrial. 234 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 4: The first attorneys at the trial didn't do a good job, 235 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 4: and I was fearful that the appeals attorney wouldn't do 236 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 4: a good job. So I wrote mister Stevenson begging for 237 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 4: an attorney to handle my appeals. When I did hear 238 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 4: back from him, he appointed mister Randy Suskin to handle 239 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 4: my appeals. 240 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 3: I was thrilled Gary got. 241 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 2: A new trial because of prosecutorial misconduct improper evidence offered 242 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 2: against him in his first trial. 243 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: And now that Brian Stevenson and Randy Suskin have done 244 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: their part. 245 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 3: You got involved. 246 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: You weren't even really a decated lawyer, so you had 247 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: to basically pull some strings and maneuver yourself into this case. 248 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 2: If I was going to get on, I knew that 249 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 2: I would have to get appointed. The problem with getting 250 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 2: appointed was that the judge doesn't know me. I've not 251 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 2: practiced there, but John Mays, my good friend, did and 252 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 2: does practice there. So John was ultimately able to talk 253 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 2: to Judge into appointing us both with some conditions, and 254 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 2: then Steve Wright from the Southern Cider from Human Rights 255 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 2: called me at home and he offered the services of 256 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 2: Chris Adams and the mitigation team of Southern Center. It 257 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 2: was a deal I would never refused, and boom, we 258 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 2: had our team in place. 259 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: I think for many people listening, they're probably going, well, Okay, 260 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: now you got this dream team. You have all this evidence. 261 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: The state has no evidence. This should have been a 262 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: slam dunk. 263 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 2: The first thing that happened in this case right before 264 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 2: trial that basically just blew our world was this We 265 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 2: were counting on the perfect alibi that Geary had, which 266 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 2: was multiple people besides of course the doctor in his back. 267 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 2: And one of those alibi witnesses testified in the first trial, 268 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 2: and her name was Kelly Hargrove. That was Gary's stepdaughter. Well, 269 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 2: Kelly was going to be one of three or four 270 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 2: alibi witnesses we were going to call, and right before 271 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 2: trial we couldn't reach her, and she had moved to 272 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 2: Panama City and she would not respond to ours, couldn't 273 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 2: even subpoena her. And we figured out what happened they 274 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 2: had cut a deal with her, meaning that she had 275 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 2: got in trouble in Panama City. She was facing some 276 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 2: potential theft charges, and she cut a deal, even though 277 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 2: the state never admitted it, and suddenly she became the 278 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 2: chief witness for the state. She basically said, I perjured 279 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 2: myself in the first trial, and Gary confessed to me, 280 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 2: and that was her testimony in the second trial. 281 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: So they were far from done with their dirty tricks. 282 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: And in fact, they really pulled the rug out from 283 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: under you in a pretty serious way here. So you 284 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: had to pivot. But that wasn't the only card you 285 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: had to play. 286 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no. So where I candidly made a 287 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 2: tremendous tactical mistake, and I write about it in the 288 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 2: book with clarity and candor, because lawyers need to be 289 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 2: conscious of every word they speak. And I ask a 290 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 2: question that I never should have asked, and it was 291 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 2: what were the scratches that she claimed that she sold 292 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 2: twelve days later when she said Gary confessed, where were 293 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 2: they on Geary? And it was a huge mistake because 294 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 2: I didn't take into consideration the obvious is that they 295 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 2: would have prepped her and showed her the pictures of 296 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 2: the scratches that Geary had that he received when he 297 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 2: was arrested and basically jerked onto the concrete from his automobile. 298 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 2: They jerked him out about it causing scratches, and she 299 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 2: described those scratches as being very red and very fresh 300 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 2: and long scratches, and it was what the picture showed, 301 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 2: and it was an awful moment for me. Fortunately, we 302 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 2: got a lunch break and everybody else was eating lunch. 303 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 2: I was like underwater, and then I figured it out, 304 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 2: like a bell went on right before we went back. 305 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 2: Is that there's no way that those were the scratches 306 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 2: that she saw, because if she'd seen those scratches twelve 307 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 2: days later when she said Gary confessed, they wouldn't have 308 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 2: been fresh, they would have been scabbed, and they would 309 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,479 Speaker 2: have been in the healing process. There's no way that 310 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 2: those scratches would have occurred at the crime scene from 311 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 2: Dalton Pace. 312 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 3: There's no way. 313 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 2: And once I overcame that hurdle, then showing that she 314 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 2: was beyond belief was very easy to do, especially since 315 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 2: we had Affi Davids from all the people she stole 316 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 2: from in Panama City that she denied. 317 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: So the step daughter's claims about an alleged compession were 318 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: proven to be totally incredible. That lie brought to you, 319 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: of course by prosecutor conduct. But this wasn't the only 320 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 1: person that they'd courced. 321 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 2: An alibi witness that was a friend of Gary's daughter. 322 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 2: We flew her up from Oregon on our own dime, 323 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 2: and when the investigators and the prosecution found out, they 324 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 2: intimidated her at the motel where she was staying and 325 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,959 Speaker 2: basically spooked her, and she refused to testify. They threatened 326 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 2: her with perjury, and that would have been a nice 327 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 2: thing to have her because she was another strong alibi 328 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 2: witness that they used their power to keep her from testifying. 329 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,199 Speaker 1: Now comes another state's witness. Beverly gets back on the 330 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: stand to repeat the lies she told in the first trial, 331 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 1: and really the lies that started the whole thing. And 332 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: of course she denied having an incentive to lie, and 333 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: Richard proved that her denials were lies, destroying her credibility. 334 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: So now Beverly, who bears a great deal of responsibility 335 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: for Gary's wrongful conviction, was all deflated. And when she 336 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 1: got off the stand, she does something absolutely nuts. Gary, 337 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: go ahead, do you speak to that. 338 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 4: Right as she was getting off the stand, she looks 339 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 4: over at me and says, Carrie, I've always loved you. 340 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 4: And the judge said, get her out of here, get 341 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 4: her out of here. I mean, everybody in there could 342 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 4: tell she was lying. Everybody could tell she was hot, 343 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:24,199 Speaker 4: she was hopped up. 344 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: That's like, it's like a movie. It's like it's like 345 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: some of my cousin VINNI shit or something. It's crazy. Really, 346 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: what were the other key things that you think really 347 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: turned the jury around. 348 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 2: Well, let me start by saying this that in the 349 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 2: first trial, the detective detective Gary Walker had said that 350 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 2: while listening to the tape recorded conversation between and Beverly, 351 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 2: his half sister, that Gary confessed. And I already mentioned that, 352 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 2: but the tape got enhanced because we insisted the FBI 353 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 2: and Anstein. They brought the agent to testify in the 354 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 2: state court, and the FBI agent had to be honest. 355 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 2: And as many times as we played the enhanced tape, 356 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 2: he never heard Gary confess because it wasn't on there. 357 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:35,199 Speaker 2: And then Detective Walker testified in spite of it not 358 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 2: being on there. He insisted even on my cross with him, 359 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 2: he insisted that Gary basically confessed, and we played that 360 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 2: tape at least a half a dozen times, and it 361 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 2: was very clear that Gary never confessed. It was never 362 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 2: on the tape, and he could not have heard what 363 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 2: he told the jury in the first trial. On the 364 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 2: second trial that he heard. And when that occurred, I 365 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 2: think the trial was pretty much over in our favor. 366 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 4: I knew we'd put on a good case, and I 367 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 4: knew I had a good chance of being found not guilty. 368 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 4: But you'll never never allow your hopes to get up, 369 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 4: or you'll get crushed and it'll devastate you all over again. 370 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 4: But when they sent the jury out to deliberate, Richard 371 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 4: and the other attorneys went after some coffee. Well, the 372 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 4: laps in the courthouse went out. Somebody outside had hit 373 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 4: a telephone pole, and a police officer that was sitting 374 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 4: with me put a gun in my back, and I'm thinking, 375 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 4: oh Lord, this Sidi's going to shoot me before I 376 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 4: even get a chance to hear the juror. 377 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ again, if you put that in a movie, 378 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 1: somebody would go, now, I be gonna believe that. Sorry, 379 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: I gotta take that out. 380 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 3: Gary. 381 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: We talked about the worst moment of your life when 382 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: you were found guilty. So this is the opposite. Paint 383 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,120 Speaker 1: the picture for us as best you can. You take 384 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: us inside that moment in the courtroom. 385 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 4: Well, when they told me to stand up and they 386 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 4: pronounced a not guilty verdict, everybody in the courtroom, I 387 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 4: believe had tears. I think the old judge even she 388 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 4: had a couple of tears. That was probably the happiest 389 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 4: moment of my life. 390 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 2: We interviewed the drawers afterwards and they all said, basically, look, 391 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 2: we know he never could have done it, he never 392 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 2: should have been charged, and we reached our verdict in 393 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 2: less than five minutes. There's no way to quantify the 394 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 2: depth of your feelings when someone is basically snatched away 395 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 2: from the grips of death. 396 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 4: Well, I'm walking out the courthouse and my mother's there, 397 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 4: my ex wife's there with my children, are good friends there. 398 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 4: My kids are just thrilled to death, and they asked 399 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 4: me what's the first thing I want to do. I said, 400 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,679 Speaker 4: get some barbecue right away. 401 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: So, Gary, since getting out, you've been doing some great 402 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: work with Witnessed Innocence, Kirk Bludsworth and the whole crew, 403 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: raising awareness you're literally on a mission to abolish the 404 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: death penalty. I would love to hear more about. 405 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 4: That, Okay, be glad to Witness to Innocence is an 406 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 4: anti death penalty organization which came to me approximately five 407 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 4: years after I was out. The group consists of people 408 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 4: that have been exonerated from death row and their family 409 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,360 Speaker 4: members and support members. We go around the country speaking 410 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 4: to anyone that listened to us. We've got this penalty 411 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 4: called accuracy and justice. We speak to prosecutors, we speak 412 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,360 Speaker 4: to judges, and we change a lot of minds. I mean, 413 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 4: we've helped abolish we haven't done it ourselves, but we've 414 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 4: helped abolish the death penalty in about four states. 415 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: How can people get involved? 416 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,120 Speaker 3: A website Witness Innocence dot org. 417 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: That's Witness to Innocence dot org. A great organization. By 418 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 1: the way, we have the link in the bio along 419 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: with links to the groups that help free Gary. Of course, 420 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: I'm talking about the Equal Justice Initiative and the Southern 421 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: Center for Human Rights. So just scroll down and get involved. 422 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: And now we come to the part of our show 423 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: called closing Arguments, where I thank you both for sharing 424 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: this remarkable story and I'm just going to turn my 425 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,719 Speaker 1: mic off, kick back, close my eyes, and listen to 426 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 1: anything you have left to say, anything on your mind 427 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: at all. 428 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 3: Anything we left out. 429 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: So we're going to save the best for Lass, of course, 430 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: and no offense to the great Richard Jaffy. But that 431 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 1: means you, Gary, you're bat and clean up here, so 432 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: to speak. So Richard, the mic is yours. 433 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 2: This case is the perfect example of every reason why 434 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 2: the death penalty should be abolished, because everything that's wrong 435 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 2: with it is present in this case. One, it was 436 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 2: a lottery that Geary ended up with the legal team 437 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 2: he ended up with for the second trial, in particular 438 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 2: the Southern Center for Human Rights John Mays, Chris Adams. 439 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 2: And secondly, Geary got a new trial because of prosecutorial misconduct, 440 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 2: and then when his second trial begins, there was more 441 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 2: prosecutorial misconduct. The case involved an investigation that was taking 442 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 2: snitch's words for things without corroborating it and verifying it. 443 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 2: It was truly a travesty that Geary was ever charged 444 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 2: in the first place. So when you look at the 445 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 2: death penalty and analyze it, this is the perfect example 446 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 2: of why it simply doesn't work. It's arbitrary, and it's capricious, 447 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 2: and it is snatching people that are good people out 448 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 2: of society and wrongfully convicting them and subjecting them to 449 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 2: losing their lives. 450 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 1: Kary over to you. 451 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 4: When I got off out of prison, I knew I 452 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 4: had to get a different vocation other than construction because 453 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 4: it still had a hurt back. 454 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 3: And I went to college. 455 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 4: I told the teachers what had happened, asked them, could 456 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 4: I get a job? 457 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 3: They said yes. 458 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 4: I signed up for respiratory therapy. I was doing good 459 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,919 Speaker 4: in class, I was doing great in clinicals six months 460 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 4: before graduation. The hospital will hire you if you're doing good, 461 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 4: nurses warned me, because I could feel the patient's pain 462 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:48,640 Speaker 4: and they. 463 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 3: Wouldn't hire me. 464 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,199 Speaker 4: They laughed when they seen that I'd been convicted of 465 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 4: capital murder. They laughed, said, no hospital in the country 466 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 4: will hire you. That's still on my record, witness to innocence. 467 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 4: I saw what they were doing. I saw the potential 468 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 4: in the organization, and I said, definitely, I would love 469 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 4: to be a member. 470 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 3: And to me, this is one of. 471 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 4: The best, most powerful anti death penalty organizations around. Before 472 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 4: this COVID thing, I was traveling probably once a month 473 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 4: without just speaking engagements. But now since this COVID thing's 474 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 4: going on, I sit at home and hope somebody will call. 475 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason flamm. 476 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence projects and go to the 477 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: link in our bio to see how you can help. 478 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff 479 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: Clyburn and Kevin Wardis. The music on the show as always, 480 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be 481 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction on 482 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm 483 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association 484 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one