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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, A production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I am Holly Frye

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Speaker 1: and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. We talked about vavel and

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Speaker 1: Poland this week. Yeah, Okay. There was a lot of

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Speaker 1: stuff that didn't make it into the episode because it

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Speaker 1: is so broad you can't hit it all. But there

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Speaker 1: was one thing that I found while I was researching,

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Speaker 1: and I searched forever and ever and never found any

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Speaker 1: additional substantiation of this story, but it fascinated me. This

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Speaker 1: is a story that appeared in the Buffalo News in

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Speaker 1: January of nineteen fourteen. Okay, so this is the story

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Speaker 1: that that told I'm not quoting it directly, but at

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Speaker 1: the end of the eighteenth century, according to this story,

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Speaker 1: so between the years of seventeen ninety two and seventeen

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Speaker 1: ninety eight, somewhere in there, the crown and staff that

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Speaker 1: had been part of the world tradition in Vovol as

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Speaker 1: part of their coronations had vanished, and these bejeweled items

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Speaker 1: had been worn all the way back to King Kasimir

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Speaker 1: the Third, who was also known as Kasimir the Great.

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Speaker 1: He ruled from thirteen thirty three to thirteen seventy, and

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Speaker 1: then every subsequent ruler also wore these as part of

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Speaker 1: their coronation ceremonies, and the rumor regarding their disappearance was

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Speaker 1: that in those years which were very turbulent of the

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Speaker 1: seventeen nineties, they were purposely buried at the base of

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Speaker 1: an elm tree on the edge of the castle property.

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Speaker 1: And this Buffalo news story in nineteen fourteen reported that

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Speaker 1: there was a surprising development regarding the missing crown, and

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Speaker 1: in this it said that a particularly severe group of

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Speaker 1: storms had passed through Krakov in January that year, and

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Speaker 1: several trees were uprooted, and one of them held in

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Speaker 1: the tangle of its roots the missing crown. This is

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Speaker 1: such a great story. I couldn't find substantiation of it

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Speaker 1: anywhere else. So I have one thing. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if this is a case where I just couldn't find

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Speaker 1: it because it was reported primarily in Polish and didn't

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Speaker 1: make it to the US anywhere else, or if it's

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Speaker 1: a case of something got jumbled in translation and nobody

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Speaker 1: else was reporting it in quite the same way. And

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Speaker 1: in that case, I don't know if this would be

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Speaker 1: the correct version or another, or if, as sometimes happened,

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Speaker 1: some journalists made up the whole thing from whole cloth

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Speaker 1: to fill a column of a paper. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what happened here. Wow, it's pretty interesting though, Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I love it as a story. It's a great news story.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that I wanted to make sure to

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Speaker 1: mention is that seventeen ninety one constitution that was ultimately

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Speaker 1: struck down, but it is considered by historians to be

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Speaker 1: just an incredibly important document. It was, you know, super revolutionary.

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Speaker 1: It created this new political nation that combined you know,

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Speaker 1: the culture of Poland, which we talked about, like even

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Speaker 1: as they were being carved up, the people of Poland

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Speaker 1: were really really dedicated to maintaining their traditions and not

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Speaker 1: getting lost in the other countries they had become part of.

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Speaker 1: And so this document kind of combines that Polish sense

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Speaker 1: of cultural identity with like these ideas of enlightenment that

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Speaker 1: were very popular at the time in it, like dynasties

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Speaker 1: were going to be elected rather than single people, and

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Speaker 1: so that would sort of create this interesting thing. It's

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Speaker 1: a really really interesting document. Like some of the specificity

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Speaker 1: to it, we mentioned that, like the whole idea was

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Speaker 1: that it was going to streamline government and they were

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Speaker 1: going to you know, make Poland stronger. And it calls

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Speaker 1: for an army of one hundred thousand to be created,

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Speaker 1: some of the royal municipalities would get their autonomy back,

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Speaker 1: and the the peasantry would then fall under better protections

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Speaker 1: of the law. It's a really interesting document and so

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Speaker 1: there has been a lot of study of it and

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Speaker 1: writing about it in the interim. Even though it's kind

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Speaker 1: of a brief mention in our episode, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: make sure I called it out so that if anybody

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Speaker 1: is interested in an idea like this of a revolutionary constitution,

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Speaker 1: it's worth going and looking up because it really does

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Speaker 1: kind of take into account some interesting ideology that you know,

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Speaker 1: we don't hear about a lot when we're talking about

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Speaker 1: history and governments being reorbered. It sounds almost in some

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Speaker 1: ways more like a I mean, it is very much

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Speaker 1: a government document, but some aspects of it sound almost

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Speaker 1: like you know, the drafts that we have talked about

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Speaker 1: of you know, Utopia's being formed. Sure, so it's kind

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Speaker 1: of cool. Yeah, Poland, Poland, you've been through so much,

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Speaker 1: I mean, many countries have, but I feel like Poland

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Speaker 1: is really taken a lot of hits over the century.

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Speaker 1: So I'm, as I said, very eager to visit Poland

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Speaker 1: one day. I love Polish food. I mean, I feel

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Speaker 1: like I say that about every food culture we come

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Speaker 1: up against. But here's she on me stuff everywhere. That's

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Speaker 1: my that's my experience, that's true. I literally cannot get

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Speaker 1: over how beautiful some of the pictures of the exhibits

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Speaker 1: of vovol are like where my brain is just like,

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Speaker 1: there's more gold in that room than should be in

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Speaker 1: any room. Ever, Like I don't it's I mean, some

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Speaker 1: of them are on par with stuff we've seen, like

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Speaker 1: at the Vatican Museums in terms of just opulence and

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Speaker 1: extraordinary design, and I yearned to go put my own

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Speaker 1: actual eyeballs on them instead of through a screen. Fingers crossed.

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Speaker 1: This week, we talked about animal trials in the medieval

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Speaker 1: and early modern era. I've had this list for a

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Speaker 1: long time. It's on my list for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and it just really took me a while to figure

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Speaker 1: out how I wanted to approach it without it just

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Speaker 1: being too gory, because some of the ones that involved

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Speaker 1: animals being sentenced to execution. Some of them are pretty gruesome,

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Speaker 1: both in terms of like what the animal was on

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Speaker 1: trial for the execution itself, and I was like, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to like shy away from the fact that

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Speaker 1: it could be really cruel and violent, but I also

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Speaker 1: don't want to have so much gory detail that the

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Speaker 1: episode is just like viscerally upsetting, right, So it took

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Speaker 1: me a while to kind of think through how to

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Speaker 1: approach that. One of the things that this made me

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Speaker 1: think about is the difference between a lawyer believing that

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Speaker 1: their client is innocent and the lawyering that everyone deserves

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Speaker 1: a fair trial with fair representation, right, And I wonder

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Speaker 1: how much that was involved in the thinking of the

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Speaker 1: people who represented animals in these trials. A lot of

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Speaker 1: it is kind of tricky because, like we don't fully

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Speaker 1: know how people were conceiving of animal intelligence and morality

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Speaker 1: and things like that. It's like, there are people who

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Speaker 1: did write about those kinds of things, but it's tricky

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Speaker 1: to know what common people really believed about stuff. And

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Speaker 1: some of the commentators on all this have pointed out

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Speaker 1: that some of these things happened in an era when

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Speaker 1: there was just a big increase and the number of

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Speaker 1: like fictional and poetic works that were basically about anthropomorphized animals,

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Speaker 1: and like, how did that relate to how people really

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Speaker 1: thought about animals? And a lot of it is not

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Speaker 1: fully clear anyway, things that I'm curious about. I have

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Speaker 1: so many thoughts on this. I found myself wondering about

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Speaker 1: an alternate to all of this, like an explanation in

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Speaker 1: terms of the defense lawyer, if this wasn't sort of

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Speaker 1: like a test of the lawyer. Sure, especially because you

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Speaker 1: know in the Chasnet story he ended up very famous

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Speaker 1: after that, And it's kind of like, is this a

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Speaker 1: case where you're giving a lawyer a situation where they

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Speaker 1: have to defend the indefensible and see if they can

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Speaker 1: actually put together a case file that offers up some

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Speaker 1: legitimate defense or ways to get through the law. Because

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Speaker 1: after that, I imagine anybody would go, this guy got

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Speaker 1: the rats off, like I want him for my lawyer,

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Speaker 1: which is just interesting to me. I have not seen

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Speaker 1: this movie starring Colin Firth that came out in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety three. I think it is available streaming somewhere, and

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Speaker 1: I did think about maybe finding it and watching it

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Speaker 1: over the Weekend. I did not actually do that, but

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Speaker 1: from just watching a trailer of it, I got the

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Speaker 1: impression that that was sort of one of the things.

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Speaker 1: Part of the interpretation of that movie was sort of like,

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Speaker 1: how is this person going to pull this off? What

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Speaker 1: will that mean? Yeah, their you know, recognition of their

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Speaker 1: skill as a lawyer, a defense lawyer in particular. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I also have many theories about that rooster eggs or

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Speaker 1: not even theories, many feelings and thoughts about the rooster

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Speaker 1: egg situation. Okay, because you know, there is a thing

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Speaker 1: called spontaneous sex reversal that happens in chickens. I did

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Speaker 1: not know this. Oh one, some hens will grow just

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Speaker 1: by random genetic you know, doings like a larger comb

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Speaker 1: than average or whatever, and they will be misidentified. But

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Speaker 1: so my understanding is that in some hens, depending on

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Speaker 1: like developmentally, what happens with their ovaries, they like a

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Speaker 1: latent ovary can actually result in them kind of developing

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Speaker 1: male characteristics, but that they can then reverse. So like

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Speaker 1: it's a rooster, if they're a true rooster, is never

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Speaker 1: going to have the plumbing to make an egg happen. Sure,

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Speaker 1: so in this case, it had to have been a

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Speaker 1: hen that was misidentified or had you know, sex expressive

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Speaker 1: traits that were not accurate or that were you know,

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Speaker 1: almost ambiguous in their case. I mean we you know,

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Speaker 1: we know about animals having spectrums of their their biological sex. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it happens all the time. So I'm like, those people

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Speaker 1: just didn't know science could have saved that rooster, which

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Speaker 1: I'm saying with air. Yes, I also had the question

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Speaker 1: of Okay, did someone see this bird lay an egg

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Speaker 1: or was the bird just near an egg? And somebody

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Speaker 1: was like, uh oh this is not okay, also possible. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's all very wild to me. I still, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm still hung up on you know, the rats can't

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Speaker 1: read your legal document, right, I don't, And if you

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Speaker 1: read it to them, they don't know. They don't speak

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Speaker 1: English or whatever language it is that you're speaking. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they may understand some basics, they understand anger, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's so that's where I'm like, what makes

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Speaker 1: you think that these animals can understand your directives? Yeah, termites,

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Speaker 1: they don't know. Some of the articles that I read

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Speaker 1: about all of this were definitely written from an animal

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Speaker 1: rights perspective and framed these trials as like barbarous basically uh,

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Speaker 1: and then other things that I read about it more

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Speaker 1: asked the question of like, would you say that it's

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Speaker 1: any better now where if, just as an example, a

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Speaker 1: dog attacks multiple people and someone makes the decision to

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Speaker 1: euthanize that dog, right, Like, is that better when there

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Speaker 1: has not been someone advocating for the dog? Right? As

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Speaker 1: just a totally example of you know, a thing that

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Speaker 1: does still happen today, And I was like, I honestly

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Speaker 1: don't know what the answer there is. Yeah, whether you

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Speaker 1: know it's if obviously these are not the only two

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Speaker 1: options of things that exist in the world, but if

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Speaker 1: option one is a trial proceeding in which an animal

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Speaker 1: does not actually have a concept of what is going on,

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Speaker 1: or just the end result with no process. Yeah, to

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Speaker 1: add a margin of levity to this whole thing, I

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Speaker 1: will tell you that I am happy in this moment

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Speaker 1: that my husband generally does not listen to our show.

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Speaker 1: Would you be very upset by this episode? No, but

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Speaker 1: I think he would like to run with the idea

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Speaker 1: and put the juro spiders in our yard on trial, okay,

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Speaker 1: or as I love them, but yeah, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: for anybody that doesn't know it's a Japanese spider. They've

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Speaker 1: gotten really, really prolific in Georgia in the last couple

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Speaker 1: of years. They're quite large, they scare people a lot,

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Speaker 1: They're harmless to people. It is an invasive species, but

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Speaker 1: we don't really know what that's gonna mean. But I

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Speaker 1: love them and I always name the ones that live

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Speaker 1: in our yard every year. Yeah, and I got I

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Speaker 1: was traveling this the past few days and I got

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Speaker 1: a text. This evolves a little set up. I apologize, fine,

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Speaker 1: as you know, as our listeners know, at this point,

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Speaker 1: we feed wild critters on our deck. Right, I put

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Speaker 1: out food for the crows and sometimes Rakoun's coming a

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Speaker 1: little bit and other birds. And the feed that I

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Speaker 1: put over the crows, I put in two ramikins that

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Speaker 1: sit on the railing of our deck. And if the

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Speaker 1: raccoons can, they knock those ramikins to the ground, and

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Speaker 1: we just, you know, every couple of days go and

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Speaker 1: collect the dropped ramikins and clean them and start the

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Speaker 1: process over. And I got a text from my husband

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Speaker 1: that there were some ramikins that had fallen, but he

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Speaker 1: is not going to go get them. And it's because

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Speaker 1: a spider has made her web in between the side

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Speaker 1: yard and where he would have to go at the

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Speaker 1: brink of the deck, and he's like, those ramikins are

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Speaker 1: just lost to time. Now. Yeah, they no more ramikins.

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Speaker 1: Too bad, I'll go get them. It's fine. Yeah, I didn't.

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Speaker 1: I didn't dare tell him that. This morning, as I

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Speaker 1: looked up and looked around, I noticed that we have

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Speaker 1: some that are very very high up in the trees

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Speaker 1: above our heads. And they're beautiful and I love them.

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Speaker 1: But he doesn't want to know that they're over him.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, don't anybody tell my husband that they are spiders.

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Speaker 1: Buy up in the trees. Everybody be cool. I'll never

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Speaker 1: go outside again. You will never leave that out. He's

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Speaker 1: so much better than he like. He will tolerate them

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Speaker 1: because he knows I love them, but he doesn't like them.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, I can't fault him. Lots of people

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Speaker 1: don't like things. Sure, so yeah, but so far, Stella

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Speaker 1: is my favorite this year. She's on the deck. She

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Speaker 1: seems real cool. We'll see. I haven't named everybody else

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Speaker 1: because I haven't met them all yet. They arrived while

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Speaker 1: I was out of the country, and now I have

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Speaker 1: to go do my walk around to the yard and

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Speaker 1: see who's here and who's moved in, and do my

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Speaker 1: little welcome to the neighborhood discussion of the spiders. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love that. I have. One of the other sort

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Speaker 1: of trains of thought about these trials was that, like,

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Speaker 1: if you observe animals, it's clear that they are able to,

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Speaker 1: you know, to some extent, communicate with one another. They

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Speaker 1: have standards of behavior for themselves, Like I have two cats.

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Speaker 1: They know that when they are playing with each other

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Speaker 1: and they are wrestling, that that this is playtime and

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Speaker 1: they're not hurting each other, right, they know where those

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Speaker 1: limits are. Yeah, And so there's kind of of you know,

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Speaker 1: people were living a lot of people we're living in

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Speaker 1: closer proximity to more animals than we are today in

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Speaker 1: a lot of contexts like you and I both have

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Speaker 1: cats that live in the house with us, but we

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Speaker 1: aren't living in neighborhoods where everyone has a cow and

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Speaker 1: maybe a horse also, and like lots of other farm

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Speaker 1: type in quotation marks animals that are you know, part

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Speaker 1: of your life every day. And so there was a

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Speaker 1: sort of train of thought of like people were having

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Speaker 1: more contact with more animals and observing the way animals

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Speaker 1: interact with people and with each other. So maybe they

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Speaker 1: were just like, yeah, of course an animal could go

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Speaker 1: to court. They know how to behave like the cow. Nos,

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Speaker 1: it's really a compliment that we're putting you on trial. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And it made me think about our efforts to teach

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Speaker 1: our cats to use little buttons to tell us what

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Speaker 1: they want, which is just proceeding in a comical way.

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Speaker 1: At my house, they have figured out if they delicately

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Speaker 1: paw at the treat button, I will give them a treat.

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Speaker 1: They have not figured out that they need to push

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Speaker 1: it hard enough for it to say the word treat.

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Speaker 1: And they also haven't really figured out that they can

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Speaker 1: just go over there and do that that like, they

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Speaker 1: don't need to be sort of invited. Hey, we're going

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Speaker 1: to work on buttons now. Also, strangely, Onyx is better

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Speaker 1: at it than Opal, and usually Opal is the one

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Speaker 1: who figures things out more than on it. Onyx has

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Speaker 1: reliably figured out that the thing that needs to be

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Speaker 1: touched is the button. Opal kind of thinks something needs

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Speaker 1: to be touched. Is it my finger though? Is it

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Speaker 1: my sister's head? Is it the mat, is it the floor?

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Speaker 1: What am I touching? You think? We will see. We

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Speaker 1: will see if they ever get the hang of it.

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Speaker 1: The entire reason we got these is because Onyx does

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Speaker 1: a little ritual where she tries she taps me on

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Speaker 1: the side to get my attention, and then she walks

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Speaker 1: in a circle and then she looks at me, and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't You're trying to communicate something to

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Speaker 1: me and I don't know what it is. If I

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Speaker 1: haven't figured it out, I should summon her to a

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Speaker 1: hearing where maybe no, I don't think so, I will

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Speaker 1: just give her lots of pets and snuggles. It would

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Speaker 1: be like a cute hearing, like you were arraigning you

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Speaker 1: on overly cutosity and the defense doesn't look good. You're

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Speaker 1: too cute, it's a problem, and then your punishment is kisses. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're sentences for pat centuries. So yeah, whatever's happening on

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Speaker 1: your weekend, I hope it's going to go as well

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Speaker 1: for you as it very possibly can. If you're having rest,

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Speaker 1: I hope it's RESTful. And if you're having work, I

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Speaker 1: hope it is productive and you know, goes the way

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Speaker 1: you want it to. Go and if it involves dealing

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Speaker 1: with people, I hope all the people are great to you.

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Speaker 1: We will be back on Tomorrow, which is Saturday, with

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Speaker 1: a Saturday Classic, and we will be back Monday with

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Speaker 1: a brand new episode Stuff You Missed in History Class

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Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

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Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

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Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.