Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
Speaker 2: and speaker.
Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician,
Speaker 3: writer and course creator. We are two working parents who
Speaker 3: love our careers and our families.
Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.
Speaker 2: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.
Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life.
Speaker 3: Welcome to best of both worlds.
Speaker 2: This is Laura. This episode is airing in mid August
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty five. Today, Sarah is going to be
Speaker 2: interviewing doctor Raishmashaw, who is a pediatrician, also a parent
Speaker 2: coach and has expertise in nutrition. I guess plant based
Speaker 2: nutrition in particular and feeding families.
Speaker 3: Got They're going to.
Speaker 2: Talk a lot about family meals and family rituals. Correct Sarah, Yes,
Speaker 2: we are, and I get into some details. So since
Speaker 2: you're not part of the interview, why don't you share
Speaker 2: how your family meals are going lately? Well, we do
Speaker 2: try to eat together. Whoever is in the house is
Speaker 2: generally expected to be at the table at the time
Speaker 2: that dinner is happening. That's different times, Like we don't
Speaker 2: have a set dinner time. It's sort of based on
Speaker 2: the schedule for the day, although I would say it's
Speaker 2: generally sometime between six and seven is when it happens.
Speaker 2: I am relaxed about some things related to family dinner.
Speaker 2: Alex likes to sit at the counter rather than at
Speaker 2: the table with the rest of us. I don't really
Speaker 2: know why, but I pick my battles. He's in the room,
Speaker 2: he's in the same room, so there's that. Henry will
Speaker 2: sometimes sit for about three bites. I had a rule
Speaker 2: at one point that he had to be on his bottom,
Speaker 2: sitting down eating three bites of something healthy that was
Speaker 2: on his plate before he could run up elsewhere in
Speaker 2: the house. And so sometimes he would sort of literally
Speaker 2: be sitting there like wait, because again it was when
Speaker 2: everyone was sitting down, he had to have the three bites.
Speaker 2: So he'd be like Michael's taking his leisurely time filling
Speaker 2: his plate at the stuff, and Henry's sitting there like
Speaker 2: when's daddy gonna sit down so I can eat my
Speaker 2: three bites and go. But we're trying to enforce proper
Speaker 2: behavior at the table here, and we're slowly training people
Speaker 2: with that. We rotate. Another thing we do on the
Speaker 2: other end of dinner is that each kid has a
Speaker 2: night for dishes. That's really only the older four where
Speaker 2: that happens. I don't think Henry's quite ready for doing
Speaker 2: dishes himself yet, but I'm happy to report that the
Speaker 2: older kids just do it. They don't argue about they
Speaker 2: know that. Yeah, so far, this will obviously have to change.
Speaker 2: But Monday is Jasper, Tuesday is Sam, Wednesday is Ruth,
Speaker 2: Thursday is Alex. You do the dishes on that night.
Speaker 2: Alex sometimes needs a little assistance, but it's good. It's
Speaker 2: nice to not have to do it.
Speaker 3: I love it. I'm like, I need some more kids.
Speaker 2: And so you guys do talk selective eating, correct I
Speaker 2: hear that.
Speaker 3: Yes, we do have some discussions about selective eating, and
Speaker 3: I think you will approve of her very gentle approach
Speaker 3: and philosophy. How is that going. I know that that
Speaker 3: has been something There's been multiple selective eaters in your household,
Speaker 3: isn't that right?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I mean I'm pretty relaxed about this too.
Speaker 2: I mean, it is one of my pet peeves of parenting,
Speaker 2: writing that people seem to feel sometimes that they've done
Speaker 2: something that makes their kids adventurous eaters versus more selective ones.
Speaker 2: That is clearly the result of bad parenting. Because the
Speaker 2: upside of having five children is you could know that
Speaker 2: you didn't do anything different but from one to the other,
Speaker 2: and yet their tastes are incredibly different in what they
Speaker 2: are willing to eat what they enjoy.
Speaker 3: That you can have a child who.
Speaker 2: Likes spicy mustards and basalmic vinaigrettes and ethnic food, and
Speaker 2: you can have another child who will only eat fruit
Speaker 2: in the form of apple sauce. And you know, I
Speaker 2: don't believe that I was an awesome parent for one
Speaker 2: and a crappy parent for the other, And so I'm
Speaker 2: more inclined to believe that people are who they are,
Speaker 2: and sometimes you just have to work with what they
Speaker 2: are and try to make things happen as they can
Speaker 2: within that it also can change over time. I'm pretty
Speaker 2: sure I've told the story on here of my little
Speaker 2: brother being a highly selective eater growing up and into
Speaker 2: young adulthood, and then at some point he's got a
Speaker 2: great tech job living in San Francisco and a young
Speaker 2: man in possession of a good fortune must soon be
Speaker 2: in want of a wife. Is that the start to
Speaker 2: Jane Austen pride and prejudice, And it turns out that
Speaker 2: young women do not always wish to go out for pizza,
Speaker 2: so eventually you have to deal with that. And I'm
Speaker 2: happy to report that he is both married now and
Speaker 2: also eats a lot of different things.
Speaker 3: So there is hope.
Speaker 2: And I like to believe that my selective leader, the
Speaker 2: highly selective leader in particular, will see that same success.
Speaker 3: Someday. They should talk someday.
Speaker 2: Someday, I don't know anyway it will happen. It will happen,
Speaker 2: but kids are different. We work with what we've got
Speaker 2: to So I'm excited to hear what doctor Rachma Shaw
Speaker 2: has to say.
Speaker 3: Well, I am so excited to welcome Rechma Shaw, doctor
Speaker 3: Rachmashaw to the podcast. A fellow pediatrician. Chema is a pediatrician,
Speaker 3: a parent coach, and has expertise in plant based nutrition
Speaker 3: and feeding families. And we know at the start of
Speaker 3: the school year that dinner is often on everyone's minds,
Speaker 3: but we're going to even talk about dinner and beyond
Speaker 3: Doctor Rachmshaw, So welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me. I'm really looking forward
Speaker 1: to this conversation.
Speaker 3: So am I. And I did want to provide you
Speaker 3: with the tiny bit of my own like disclaimer stuff
Speaker 3: before we get into the discussion, just because I've talked
Speaker 3: about my family's kind of dinner habits before, and hey,
Speaker 3: maybe I'll end up with some advice from you as well.
Speaker 3: But just for some background, my husband's a surgeon, I'm
Speaker 3: a pediatric endocrinologist. We have three kids between the ages
Speaker 3: of seven and thirteen, and we've talked on this podcast
Speaker 3: a bunch about how family dinner can we think sometimes
Speaker 3: be kind of like over emphasized, because in reality sometimes
Speaker 3: it's harder to make that work for some families and
Speaker 3: for others, and there can be other ways that you
Speaker 3: might sub for that, and I am sure you have
Speaker 3: a lot of insight there, and I would say, as
Speaker 3: of now, we have a true family dinner once a week,
Speaker 3: then often another time a week, usually on the weekends
Speaker 3: we might all eat out, and then the rest of
Speaker 3: the week nights it's usually like me and anywhere from
Speaker 3: zero to two kids because somebody is out doing something else.
Speaker 3: My husband usually comes home later, So that's like where
Speaker 3: I am. So maybe you're like, oh my gosh, what
Speaker 3: a disaster. I will say we are lucky, and that
Speaker 3: my kids do enjoy a lot of different types of food,
Speaker 3: so with like, the food battles aren't really a thing.
Speaker 3: My kids will eat vegetables like they're pretty reasonably non picky.
Speaker 3: So we're going to talk about that as well. But
Speaker 3: I don't know, how does that strike you off the bat.
Speaker 1: I actually think it's the perfect place to start, because
Speaker 1: I think the goal of family dinner it's not to
Speaker 1: just chuck something off of our list of things to do.
Speaker 1: It's actually to really foster a sense of connection and
Speaker 1: thoughtfulness around food and meal times. And so my definition
Speaker 1: of family meals does not mean that all the members
Speaker 1: of the family are sitting down precisely at six point
Speaker 1: thirty eating the same thing with perfect manners. Nobody does
Speaker 1: family dinner like that. My definition of family dinner, or
Speaker 1: any family meal for that matter, is that whoever is
Speaker 1: at home is sitting together at the table in conversation,
Speaker 1: eating food together. And so if it's one child, that
Speaker 1: counts as family dinner in my mind, and I think
Speaker 1: that as parents. We really have to take the pressure
Speaker 1: off of having to do everything perfectly because our kids
Speaker 1: will pick up on that. And so if you actually
Speaker 1: end up having family dinner where everyone, every single member
Speaker 1: of the family is together and everyone is feeling stressed
Speaker 1: about it, you've defeated the purpose of family dinner. So,
Speaker 1: believe it or not, you are actually having family dinner
Speaker 1: pretty much every night of the week.
Speaker 3: I love this conversation already.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's the first disclaimer. It's whoever is at home.
Speaker 1: It's really to combat the idea that you're eating dinner
Speaker 1: at the dinner table, your kids eating dinner in front
Speaker 1: of their computer screen in their room. That doesn't work
Speaker 1: as family dinner. But if you're pausing whoever's in the house.
Speaker 1: And I've had teenagers in the house with multiple sports activities,
Speaker 1: and sometimes family dinner means that we're not going to
Speaker 1: wait for the kid that's getting home at eight thirty
Speaker 1: or nine from practice. But when that kid does come home,
Speaker 1: they're sitting down for dinner, and I'm going to sit
Speaker 1: and have a conversation. That counts as family dinner too.
Speaker 1: So it's really letting go of this idea of perfection
Speaker 1: of having a home cooked meal at the same time,
Speaker 1: everybody has to be there with great manners and say
Speaker 1: thank you mom for making a delicious meal that happens
Speaker 1: in zero percent of family. So you are doing family
Speaker 1: meal really beautifully awesome.
Speaker 3: Okay, well, now that we've dealt with my issues, and
Speaker 3: I love that love. I love the more flexible approach,
Speaker 3: the open mindedness, and I guess yeah, it does reflect
Speaker 3: what's actually important about being together, the presence versus like
Speaker 3: some specific imagery that probably came from like nineteen fifty. Anyway, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Remember one time when my kids were much younger, the
Speaker 1: sports and other activities. I remember sometimes family dinner would
Speaker 1: be me and my younger child having a little pit
Speaker 1: make dinner while my older child was at practice. So
Speaker 1: you just have to be creative. And the point really
Speaker 1: is is are you present, are you sharing a meal?
Speaker 1: Are you having conversations? And is it a pleasant experience
Speaker 1: for both you and your children?
Speaker 3: Okay, well, then let's start there, because I think a
Speaker 3: common challenge we get in this realm is that the
Speaker 3: kids are really young, or maybe there's even just one
Speaker 3: really young kid, because you know, you can have a
Speaker 3: couple of school age kids but you throw an eighteen
Speaker 3: month old in there, and like all of a sudden,
Speaker 3: things are wildly different. Stuff is being thrones, there's crying, whatever.
Speaker 3: So what would you say to families who are like,
Speaker 3: we keep trying to make it work and every time
Speaker 3: we end up disappointed because we just end up with
Speaker 3: tantrums at the table and it's misery. What advice do
Speaker 3: you have for that situation?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it's really sort of being curious
Speaker 1: about where you think the friction is. So and for
Speaker 1: every family it's going to look a little bit different.
Speaker 1: And that's why I think really like a personalized conversation.
Speaker 1: There's no one size fits all model when it comes
Speaker 1: to pailing nails. So if you notice that your eighteen
Speaker 1: month old is starting out okay at the table, but
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes in, twenty minutes in, they're just done and
Speaker 1: ready to be out of there, it might be changing
Speaker 1: your expectations of how long can an eighteen month old
Speaker 1: reasonably sit at the table. The average American family spends
Speaker 1: seventeen minutes at the dinner table, So wanting to have
Speaker 1: your eighteen month old, two year old, or even four
Speaker 1: year old sit at the table engaging in pleasant conversation
Speaker 1: for half an hour might be an unrealistic expectation. So
Speaker 1: the first thing is set reasonable expectations and they pick
Speaker 1: up on our stress. So if you're really anxious and
Speaker 1: you're always correcting them around the behavior at the table,
Speaker 1: it's going to really create a tense environment. So come
Speaker 1: to the table, have reasonable expectations, and then when you're
Speaker 1: noticing if they keep throwing food off the table, maybe
Speaker 1: you need to start with a really small portion size
Speaker 1: and then kind of add in from there. So focusing
Speaker 1: it in on where is the friction, having reasonable expectations,
Speaker 1: and then getting really curious and creative about the problem
Speaker 1: solving you can do. So, whether it's serving smaller portions
Speaker 1: once they're done with their meal, maybe the eighteen month
Speaker 1: old is allowed to play with some blocks at the table,
Speaker 1: whether rest of the people finish it, or so really
Speaker 1: coming up with some creative solutions to whatever point of
Speaker 1: friction you're facing. But I think the number one thing
Speaker 1: is really having realistic expectations of what your child can
Speaker 1: reasonably do.
Speaker 3: Totally makes sense. Yeah, all right, Well, the next common dilemma,
Speaker 3: and I'm sure you saw this one coming, is very
Speaker 3: selective eaters. My co host Laura has five children, and
Speaker 3: some of them are not very selective, and some of
Speaker 3: them are extremely selective, and she uses that, I think
Speaker 3: to reassure people sometimes that people love to be like,
Speaker 3: it's what you did, and she's like, I didn't do
Speaker 3: anything different. They are their own people, So it can
Speaker 3: still be a certainly a point of friction and a
Speaker 3: lot of families, especially when you're trying to serve things
Speaker 3: that are not going to cause a lot of drama. So, yeah,
Speaker 3: are your go to strategies for those with selective eaters
Speaker 3: in the family.
Speaker 1: So I think the first thing is it really depends
Speaker 1: on how selective we're talking. So there's some kids that
Speaker 1: are sort of garden variety I won't eat green things
Speaker 1: or this week I like this, and that's what I
Speaker 1: call garden riety picky eating, and there's a lot of
Speaker 1: strategies for that. Some kids have highly selective eating, often
Speaker 1: with underlying neurodevelopmental or medical issues. So if you're dealing
Speaker 1: with a kid who perhaps has autism or significant food
Speaker 1: allergies or swallowing dysfunction, these are kids that probably need
Speaker 1: some specialized support, whether it's an intervention from a gastreenrologist,
Speaker 1: a feeding therapist, behavioral therapist, neure developmental pediatricians. And it
Speaker 1: represents about one to five percent of kids who have
Speaker 1: that really highly selective eating. It's not a parenting issue,
Speaker 1: and it's not a kid doing something wrong issue. It's
Speaker 1: the families often need a lot more support the other
Speaker 1: sort of garden variety picky eating. I think it comes
Speaker 1: down to two things. One is individual pat child temperament.
Speaker 1: Some kids are just more selective and some kids are
Speaker 1: more adventurous, and that's not really anything that you can
Speaker 1: necessarily change. It's kind of like a personality thing. Some
Speaker 1: kids are more outgoing and some kids are a little
Speaker 1: bit more introverted. And so knowing the temperament of your child,
Speaker 1: are they really eager to try new things or are
Speaker 1: they really that slow to warm, they need a lot
Speaker 1: more exposure. So that's the first part, and then the
Speaker 1: second part really is the parental response to that. So
Speaker 1: what happens is you might have a garden variety picky
Speaker 1: eater and they need a little bit more support, they
Speaker 1: need a little bit more encouragement, and the parent can
Speaker 1: kind of overreact and then you start this sort of
Speaker 1: battle situation. Where the parents are either bribing, they're negotiating,
Speaker 1: they're forcing, they're making dessert contingent upon how many mites
Speaker 1: of broccoli you have. So you take sort of a
Speaker 1: mild feeding difficulty and you just explode it by the
Speaker 1: parents reaction. And parents are very well meaning. They're doing
Speaker 1: these strategies because they're afraid their kids aren't eating a
Speaker 1: variety of foods, they're not getting the new dreams. So
Speaker 1: I've heard parents saying, I'll do anything. I'll stand upside
Speaker 1: down for twenty minutes if that's what it it takes
Speaker 1: to get my kid to eat more broccoli or fill
Speaker 1: in the bank blank. So what I often recommend is
Speaker 1: that parents sort of backtrack some of the pressure techniques.
Speaker 1: And it feels really scary because oftentimes parents will say, well,
Speaker 1: if I don't promise them this, or threaten this, or
Speaker 1: negotiate this, they won't eat any vegetable for weeks on end.
Speaker 1: And the truth is, I found time and time again,
Speaker 1: is that if parents take the pressure off and they
Speaker 1: go back to core feeding dynamics principles of the division
Speaker 1: of responsibility which we learned in pediatrics, which is parents
Speaker 1: decide the when, the what, and the where of eating,
Speaker 1: and then it's up to the child to decide how
Speaker 1: much and whether they're going to eat the foods. It
Speaker 1: seems really scary at first, but the less pressure that
Speaker 1: kids eat, the more capable they are to try new foods.
Speaker 1: And if you've got the kid that has the more
Speaker 1: selective temperament, just knowing that it's going to take a
Speaker 1: lot more exposures, a lot more pleasant experiences before they're
Speaker 1: going to try the food. And I often this is
Speaker 1: not just for feeding, but this is for general parenting.
Speaker 1: It's like parenting the child you have rather than the
Speaker 1: child you wish you had or the traits that you wish.
Speaker 1: We all want adventurous eaters, but sometimes if you have
Speaker 1: a child that's really got selective eating, they just have
Speaker 1: that temperament, you actually have to go slower and have
Speaker 1: more patience, which is often not easy.
Speaker 3: I know, which totally makes sense. I sometimes also feel
Speaker 3: like sometimes people are looking for some badge that their
Speaker 3: kid eats X, Y Z, you know, food, and the
Speaker 3: truth is, if it's not interfering with their lives and
Speaker 3: they're getting enough nutrition overall, like looking zooming out of
Speaker 3: the big picture, maybe it's like less of a problem
Speaker 3: which might take some of the pressure off, which would, paradoxically,
Speaker 3: from what I hear you saying, maybe even improve things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it's like parents, like we grade
Speaker 1: ourselves very harshly on all the things many how much wealthly,
Speaker 1: how much sleep, how much screen time, and we can
Speaker 1: just sort of pat ourselves on the back and say
Speaker 1: we're doing the best that we can and be open
Speaker 1: to the possibility that your child is actually going to
Speaker 1: have a normal diet as they are adults, because I
Speaker 1: know a lot of parents are thinking, like, I'm going
Speaker 1: to have a kid that never eats a vegetable in
Speaker 1: their entire life, and that's not the case. I think
Speaker 1: that oftentimes, really the number one thing that parents can
Speaker 1: do is to make the eating environment, the dinner table,
Speaker 1: a pleasant environment, and it gives kids the permission to
Speaker 1: relax and be able to try new foods because they're
Speaker 1: not feeling so much pressure around it.
Speaker 3: I love that. Well, we're going to take a quick
Speaker 3: break and be back with a few more dilemmas, maybe
Speaker 3: for some older kids. All right, well, are back, and
Speaker 3: I already hinted at one of these fairly common dilemmas
Speaker 3: that can get in the way of the family table
Speaker 3: or the family meal. But many kids these days have
Speaker 3: a lot of activities, and I do feel like there
Speaker 3: is this very common arc where people say, I am
Speaker 3: not going to do that. I value my evenings, I
Speaker 3: want to be home, so I'm not going to put
Speaker 3: my kid in x y Z. But then their kids
Speaker 3: friends end up at X y Z and their kid
Speaker 3: wants to be an x y Z and you're like, okay, yeah,
Speaker 3: And I'm absolutely one of those people. I think I said, oh,
Speaker 3: we're not going to do that much, and I ended
Speaker 3: up with like a competitive gymnast and a travel soccer
Speaker 3: player at one point. So okay, knowing that, how can
Speaker 3: we still cultivate some of the family dinner feel in
Speaker 3: a context where everyone might be going in different directions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think this is really going to depend
Speaker 1: on the age of your children. So when you have
Speaker 1: kids that are younger and they need to have, like
Speaker 1: especially if you have spanning younger and older kids, and
Speaker 1: the younger kids really need their bedtime and you want
Speaker 1: to make sure you get all the things in, it
Speaker 1: might mean that you're doing sort of different dinner times
Speaker 1: for different people. But as their kids get older, you
Speaker 1: can sort of if your family can tolerate a little
Speaker 1: bit later of a dinner, that might be a way
Speaker 1: to sort of include everybody. And that's certainly what we did.
Speaker 1: We would push dinner back and so we could get
Speaker 1: all the kids at the and for our family, that
Speaker 1: was a real priority, So I was willing to push
Speaker 1: dinner back. For some families, it doesn't working. You just
Speaker 1: do the best that you can. I think limiting sports
Speaker 1: can definitely be one approach, and many families have found
Speaker 1: success in that. Our family, i think is more like
Speaker 1: your family. If our kids were committed to an activity,
Speaker 1: they showed an aptitude or a real desire to participate.
Speaker 1: As long as it wasn't interfering with their other important
Speaker 1: things like sleep and friendships and things like that, we
Speaker 1: tended to let them have the experiences. And for one
Speaker 1: of my kids, for both my kids, actually their sports
Speaker 1: activities ended up being a really great source of community
Speaker 1: and friendship and leadership skills and commitment and all these
Speaker 1: things that we really want our children to have. So
Speaker 1: every family's going to have to find their balance with that.
Speaker 1: One of the things actually from a preparation maybe we'll
Speaker 1: touch on this is I think making it as easy
Speaker 1: as possible for about six to seven to eight windows,
Speaker 1: So if that means prepping some ingredients ahead of time,
Speaker 1: having some quick, easy go to meals that don't require
Speaker 1: my was when the kids were ready to eat, to
Speaker 1: have dinner ready, so there wasn't that extra time of
Speaker 1: like we just got home from soccer, Now we have
Speaker 1: to think about what's going to happen for dinner. So
Speaker 1: I think some amount of just probably feeds really into
Speaker 1: your sphere of excellence and influences some planning and some
Speaker 1: preparations so that you're not planning to decide what's for
Speaker 1: dinner at six thirty when everybody's already hungry.
Speaker 3: And there's definitely certain type even getting into the weeds,
Speaker 3: like certain types of meals that are easier to like
Speaker 3: maybe serve over two shifts, or like you know, you
Speaker 3: have younger ones, you can give it to them at six,
Speaker 3: but it's very easy to like keep the crock put
Speaker 3: on and it's still hot at eight thirty when everyone
Speaker 3: gets back from soccer or whatever. So even the logistics
Speaker 3: of what it is can make a difference.
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of having a meal that can
Speaker 1: be like reheated or can be put together really quickly.
Speaker 3: Totally. Okay, Well, I love that, and I like the idea.
Speaker 3: I have to toy with the idea of trying to
Speaker 3: go later. Some of my kids are just like too
Speaker 3: hungry and then they'll eat fifteen snacks and then there
Speaker 3: is no dinner. But maybe maybe they can eat their
Speaker 3: dinner but then sit there with like a cup of
Speaker 3: tea later and you know, everyone can still hang out
Speaker 3: around the table for a little bit.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and I think sometimes what we used to
Speaker 1: do is we used to do like a staggered dessert.
Speaker 1: So if you're a family that does dessert, then the
Speaker 1: older kiddo that just got home from practice is having
Speaker 1: dinner and the rest of your having dessert or playing
Speaker 1: a card game or something.
Speaker 3: No. I love that. Well, how about in terms of
Speaker 3: selecting meals and even preparing meals, how do you recommend
Speaker 3: kids get involved with that at what age? Any tips
Speaker 3: for doing so? Because I can imagine that engaging in
Speaker 3: the process itself might make it more fun for certain families,
Speaker 3: might feel more like a burden in other families. So
Speaker 3: I don't know that there's like a one size fits
Speaker 3: all here, But how have you seen this play out the.
Speaker 1: Way that I what's worked for our family and I
Speaker 1: think is probably useful for a lot of families. Is
Speaker 1: I like to think about it is an invitation because
Speaker 1: for some families, getting the kids involved with cooking and
Speaker 1: meal planning and prepping is a nightmare because it adds
Speaker 1: actually more work to their plates. My bottom line is,
Speaker 1: if it's useful, if it's going to make your life
Speaker 1: easier and it makes your kids feel more engaged, go
Speaker 1: for it. But if it feels like another tour or
Speaker 1: another thing on your to do list, kind of rethink it.
Speaker 1: So the way that it looked in our families, when
Speaker 1: my kids were younger, they actually really liked to be
Speaker 1: in the kitchen, especially when it came to baking or
Speaker 1: other things. And sometimes it was like they'd help chop
Speaker 1: some vegetables and then they'd go off and do whatever
Speaker 1: it was that they were doing. And as they were
Speaker 1: older and they had homework and sports and all the things,
Speaker 1: they had very little to do with meal preparation. Now
Speaker 1: they always had a job at the end, because I
Speaker 1: don't believe that parents should be doing all the work.
Speaker 1: So my kids always, even if it was a small
Speaker 1: thing like setting the table or clearing the table, or
Speaker 1: helping with dishes. They always had a job or responsibility,
Speaker 1: but I think the involvement is really going to depend
Speaker 1: on if it's making things easier for you, what phase
Speaker 1: you are. One last tip that I'll give that was
Speaker 1: really helpful to me is oftentimes you'll have kids complaining about,
Speaker 1: like that's for dinner. So when I'm doing my planning
Speaker 1: in my grocery shopping when they were younger, I would
Speaker 1: always say, give me your wishes for the week. So
Speaker 1: they might say, could you make surfy this week? Could
Speaker 1: you make a pasta this week? And we had a
Speaker 1: few things that were always on constant rotation, and the
Speaker 1: deal was I would try to honor their wishes as
Speaker 1: much as possible, but they weren't allowed to complain about
Speaker 1: dinner once it was served, So that was kind of
Speaker 1: I never intentionally tried to serve foods that they weren't
Speaker 1: going to enjoy, but like I would ask for their
Speaker 1: wishes for the week, and I think eventually it kind
Speaker 1: of faded out, and the beginning it was a I
Speaker 1: think it just makes kids feel heard and like they
Speaker 1: have some say and they have some contribution. So I
Speaker 1: think find what works for you, and if giving your
Speaker 1: kids more jobs or responsibilities works in their schedule and
Speaker 1: it makes life facier for you, go for it. But
Speaker 1: if it feels like torture trying to get them to
Speaker 1: help in the kitchen, then maybe let it go for
Speaker 1: a while.
Speaker 3: In our house, this definitely depends on the kid because
Speaker 3: we have certain kids that seem to have more interest
Speaker 3: than other kids. Although it seems like everyone's gravitated towards
Speaker 3: having more and I agree, it is definitely more work.
Speaker 3: My husband's like, why don't you get them to help?
Speaker 3: You know, I'm like, ye, in the zone, I'm like
Speaker 3: listening to a podcast. I'm so happily making dinner. Maybe
Speaker 3: not this time, but then other times it is really nice.
Speaker 3: Or to watch them like learn a technique like oh,
Speaker 3: you can make an omelet? Now, like how did that happen?
Speaker 1: Yeah? And like maybe don't do that on the night
Speaker 1: when you have like two different practices and half an
Speaker 1: hour apart, and that sort of thing. The one caveat
Speaker 1: I will add to that is as kids get older,
Speaker 1: you do want to give them some skills around food
Speaker 1: preparation and things like that so that they are able
Speaker 1: to actually cook for themselves, or if they're in college
Speaker 1: and at a dorm, that they can actually put together
Speaker 1: a reasonable meal. And both of my kids, I will say,
Speaker 1: are fairly good at being able to cook for themselves,
Speaker 1: and I don't have a lot of concerns about them
Speaker 1: being able to put together a nutritious, delicious meal for themselves,
Speaker 1: even if it's something really simple.
Speaker 3: Oh that's awesome. Well, we're going to take another break
Speaker 3: and then get into some specifics beyond the table. All right,
Speaker 3: we're back, and we've been talking about dinner in general
Speaker 3: and dinner time kind of like routines and just some tips.
Speaker 3: But doctor Staw is also an expert on plant based
Speaker 3: nutrition and also on parenting in general from all of
Speaker 3: her years working as a pediatrician. So we're going to
Speaker 3: move into some of these topics. And my next question
Speaker 3: is for those who are more plant curious, Like maybe
Speaker 3: they're not looking to make a change to say we're
Speaker 3: a vegan family now or anything like that, but if
Speaker 3: you are somebody who is just interested in incorporating more
Speaker 3: plant centered foods, and maybe there's resistance from different members
Speaker 3: of the family, I don't know, where would you tell
Speaker 3: people to start.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love working with families that are fully plant
Speaker 1: based or even just plant curious, And I would say
Speaker 1: the best place to start is to really use an
Speaker 1: ad in approach. And what I mean by that is
Speaker 1: is that instead of thinking about removing things in the
Speaker 1: I think the first place, especially f you of resistance
Speaker 1: from kids or even partners in the household, is to
Speaker 1: just simply add more plant based foods to your diet.
Speaker 1: So if you're having eggs for breakfast, maybe you're adding
Speaker 1: greensmovie or you're adding some fresh fruit or some blueberries
Speaker 1: to your oatmeals. So just adding in more plant foods.
Speaker 1: So it could be really simple. It could be like
Speaker 1: some cut up vegetables and dip at lunch. It could
Speaker 1: be a cup of lentil soup at dinner, having a
Speaker 1: green salad. So just really thinking about where are the
Speaker 1: places that I could add some more plant based foods in.
Speaker 1: And I think the more that you do that you're
Speaker 1: going to necessarily kind of crowd out some of those
Speaker 1: more animal heavy foods. Another thing that I found is
Speaker 1: to sort of treat the meat or the animal foods
Speaker 1: as a flavoring. So if you're making a chili instead
Speaker 1: of doing an entirely ground beef chili, maybe half of
Speaker 1: that could be beans. So you're sort of just adding
Speaker 1: more plant based foods into the meals that you already
Speaker 1: love and enjoy it.
Speaker 3: I love that. I also think I'm going to add
Speaker 3: money in myself, which is that if you have a
Speaker 3: meal where everyone can choose the components, you can have
Speaker 3: like maybe one meat option, but then other options as well,
Speaker 3: and then people can kind of adjust the ratio how
Speaker 3: they see fit. And if you make the non meat
Speaker 3: ones enticing and colorful, then probably there's a good chance
Speaker 3: that they'll be taken.
Speaker 1: And in general, I love this idea of a build
Speaker 1: your own bowl or a build your own thing for
Speaker 1: because kids love doing that, and again, it can take
Speaker 1: some of the pressure and give them If it's not
Speaker 1: a whole plate of tofu, they might give themselves permission
Speaker 1: to like, hm, that looks kind of good. Maybe I'll
Speaker 1: try a piece of that. So I love this sort
Speaker 1: of build your own plate or bowl approach.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like low pressure. I'll just put a little
Speaker 3: of that in the corner and we'll see how that
Speaker 3: goes with everything else exactly. Now, one thing that you
Speaker 3: mentioned in your kind of kind of pivoting away from
Speaker 3: eating specifically, although of course if there are links there,
Speaker 3: feel free to share them. But you help parents deal
Speaker 3: with overwhelm. Now that is a very vague and broad topic,
Speaker 3: but I imagine people come to you with all types
Speaker 3: of overwhelm, and I'm curious as to kind of where
Speaker 3: your starting point is.
Speaker 1: Honestly, I think the most important thing that parents need
Speaker 1: when I work with them in the beginning, I think
Speaker 1: they just need to be heard and to have some validation,
Speaker 1: because parenting is probably one of the hardest things that
Speaker 1: we ever do, and oftentimes we're kind of doing it
Speaker 1: alone and we see other people with the perfect Bento
Speaker 1: box or the family meal or the manners are great,
Speaker 1: and we feel like we're doing something wrong, and so
Speaker 1: just having the space to be able to talk about
Speaker 1: your experience, having some validation, and I think the problem
Speaker 1: solving comes like way later. I think in the beginning,
Speaker 1: it's just not feeling so alone in the experience that
Speaker 1: you're having, And it could be something as small as
Speaker 1: like dinner time feels really chaotic. To managing a new
Speaker 1: diagnosis in a kid, something like Celiac disease or type
Speaker 1: one diabetes, which I'm sure you have a lot of
Speaker 1: patients like that. It's a really overwhelming thing and their
Speaker 1: world has just been turned completely upside down. And oftentimes
Speaker 1: in the office as a pediatrician, you just didn't have
Speaker 1: the time to offer parents that kind of support and
Speaker 1: understanding and acknowledging what you're dealing with is really really
Speaker 1: tough and challenging, and you're doing a great job and
Speaker 1: then going in with the specific resources and tools that
Speaker 1: might help to make things a little bit easier, whether
Speaker 1: it's at the dinner table or at bedtime or whatever
Speaker 1: the situation may be.
Speaker 3: And I think you're right that the common theme is
Speaker 3: probably taking the pressure off more than any you know,
Speaker 3: secreator tip there. And you mentioned families with Nuancet type
Speaker 3: one diabetes and they talk about like usually when we're
Speaker 3: still in the hospital, they're like, Okay, that first dinner
Speaker 3: at home is always kind of like a big deal.
Speaker 3: And our party line is like, you can't mess this up, Like,
Speaker 3: you know, as long as you don't we like, don't
Speaker 3: mix up the two insulins, but beyond that, like you're
Speaker 3: gonna be fine if you have a problem, let us know.
Speaker 3: But like you don't have to be perfect, like you
Speaker 3: can do this just like everyone else can. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's hard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think just not feeling alone in that journey,
Speaker 1: you know. It's just like it can be really isolating,
Speaker 1: especially in childhood getting a diagnosis like this and feeling
Speaker 1: like one of the families I was working with their
Speaker 1: child who just gotten diagnosed with Celiac disease and they're
Speaker 1: imagining like never ever going out to ice cream with
Speaker 1: their friends. So it's just it's a lot to take in.
Speaker 3: Yeah, or foodologies too, Oh my gosh. Yeah, all right, well,
Speaker 3: nourish yourself too is also something that was mentioned on
Speaker 3: your site, and I think definitely. You know, one of
Speaker 3: the things we talk about on this podcast a lot
Speaker 3: is how we love being parents. We love our kids,
Speaker 3: but our lives count as well, and sometimes in the
Speaker 3: like Mama sphere, people just kind of forget that, and
Speaker 3: even the things that people do for themselves it's couched
Speaker 3: as so that I can be a better mom, And
Speaker 3: it's like wait, wait, wait, like that's great. And also
Speaker 3: these years of our lives are going by and we
Speaker 3: deserve to be happy even without you know, a benefit
Speaker 3: for our kids. So I would love your take on
Speaker 3: nourishing yourself or how you advise people to start give
Speaker 3: them permission to do so, anything about in this category.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is a topic that's near and dear
Speaker 1: to my heart, especially as like in the last couple
Speaker 1: of years we've become empty nesters. And I think that
Speaker 1: if yes, you want to nourish yourself so that your
Speaker 1: kids can sort of learn to prioritize their own well
Speaker 1: being and also learn some patients. If we're one hundred
Speaker 1: percent always there for our kids in every moment, they
Speaker 1: don't learn sometimes that patience is required. I may not
Speaker 1: be able to like drop everything and come deliver the
Speaker 1: thing that you've forgotten. But I think also if we
Speaker 1: aren't paying attention to nourishing ourselves along the way, when
Speaker 1: the kids are out of the house, you're going to
Speaker 1: be left wondering how do I take care of myself?
Speaker 1: So I think it's really important to find that place
Speaker 1: of figuring out the ways that you're going to get
Speaker 1: a little bit of a break, a little bit of nourishment.
Speaker 1: And it can come from getting to yoga every now
Speaker 1: and then, it could come from actually making a meal
Speaker 1: for yourself instead of just eating the kids leftovers. It
Speaker 1: can come from like finding even ten or fifteen minutes
Speaker 1: to read. I realized during the pandemic and since the pandemic,
Speaker 1: my practice of just reading a book, whether it's for
Speaker 1: pleasure or for work, My capacity to sort of just
Speaker 1: sit and read a book was diminishing, like my attention span.
Speaker 1: And so I've started a simple practice of every morning
Speaker 1: making myself a cup of coffee and I just read
Speaker 1: for ten or fifteen minutes. And it doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be expensive spin classes or things that require a great
Speaker 1: amount of time or money. It can be just a
Speaker 1: really simple thing. And I think building in those places
Speaker 1: that are intentional for yourself. It seems small, but I
Speaker 1: can tell you it were so far in twenty twenty five,
Speaker 1: I've already read more books than I did in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty four. So those small things do end up batting up.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I love that.
Speaker 3: Well. I forgot to warn you about our love of
Speaker 3: the Week segment, but this will give you time to
Speaker 3: reflect on it as I'll share mine, and if you
Speaker 3: want to share one of those books that you have
Speaker 3: loved this year, that's always a fun one. But really, guests,
Speaker 3: can share anything from the sunset to something they're partnered,
Speaker 3: to anything anything in the world that's making you happy.
Speaker 3: So my love of the week, I'm going to go
Speaker 3: on theme today just because sometimes it's fun to do that.
Speaker 3: And my sister in law is vegan and she got
Speaker 3: me a lovely cookbook called Life Changing Salads by Danielle Brown,
Speaker 3: and it is just so beautiful and it's a little
Speaker 3: bit aspirational, but I am absolutely making some of these salads.
Speaker 3: And if you want a cookbook that is very beautiful
Speaker 3: to flip through, but actually I say aspirational, the ingredients
Speaker 3: are not like crazy or weird or hard. So if
Speaker 3: you just want a starting point to put some more
Speaker 3: plant heavy items in your rotation, then I would check
Speaker 3: out that book.
Speaker 1: Well, that sounds like an amazing book, I would say.
Speaker 1: My love of the week is our weekly farmer's market.
Speaker 1: The summer produce is in full bloom and everything is
Speaker 1: just so delicious, from the summer corn to the nectarms
Speaker 1: and the strawberries and the berries. So I have just
Speaker 1: been loving our weekly farmer's Market. I'm they're pretty much
Speaker 1: every Sunday.
Speaker 3: So and you were in California, so I bet your
Speaker 3: weekly farmer's market is an absolute bounty.
Speaker 1: Yes, I think it's one of the best parts of
Speaker 1: living in California is the farmer's market. It's year round.
Speaker 1: When we used to live in the Midwest, I think
Speaker 1: we have a farmer's market for like two or three
Speaker 1: months out of the year, but we haven't year round.
Speaker 1: And I will say that because of it, my kids
Speaker 1: have really learned about seasonal eating. And I know we're
Speaker 1: very fortunate that way. But right now we're not eating
Speaker 1: any apples, but in the next couple months apples will
Speaker 1: be in heavy rotation.
Speaker 3: I love it. Well, tell our listeners where they can
Speaker 3: find you and your work.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you can find me on my website it's
Speaker 1: rachmashawandparentcoaching dot com. And actually on my website, I have
Speaker 1: a list of I have several free resources, including a
Speaker 1: guide to making family meals more manageable, as well as
Speaker 1: a guide for parents that are wanting to explore more
Speaker 1: plant based eating. It's a plant They started a guy
Speaker 1: that has some easy recipes as well as some new
Speaker 1: traits that you might want to pay attention to. And
Speaker 1: the place that I tend to be most active is
Speaker 1: on Instagram. And it's just my name Raschma Shaw so
Speaker 1: it's r e Shma Shah and I try to post
Speaker 1: parenting tips and lots and lots of recipes.
Speaker 3: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on. This
Speaker 3: was so much fun. Thanks so much.
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed chatting with you.
Speaker 2: Well we are back, Sarah doing an excellent interview with
Speaker 2: doctor Rashmasha about family meals, about eating.
Speaker 3: With kids in particular.
Speaker 2: So this question is from a listener who says, I
Speaker 2: am in a rut list your top three crowd pleasing dinners.
Speaker 3: So, Sarah, what do you have? I'm going to go
Speaker 3: with some bowls. I've been into bowls lately because sometimes
Speaker 3: I don't even feel like using a recipe. And they're
Speaker 3: just so customizable because you can have the kids pick
Speaker 3: which components they want. So here's three balls for you,
Speaker 3: bowl number one, and my kids like all of these
Speaker 3: are various, at least some components of each of these
Speaker 3: would be like a Asian sushi type bowl, So you
Speaker 3: could do salmon just easy, Like it's one of my
Speaker 3: favorite proteins to cook, just because it's so easy to
Speaker 3: just throw in the oven and do it for like, but.
Speaker 2: This isn't sushi salmon.
Speaker 3: This is cooked salmon, regular cooked salmon. You get rice,
Speaker 3: maybe some of those like seaweed packages at amami, which
Speaker 3: comes frozen avocado, some kind of Asian dressing, maybe shred
Speaker 3: some carrots in there. People can choose what they want
Speaker 3: and then make your kind of sushi themed salmon bowl.
Speaker 3: You could do a Mediterranean bowl. I did this recently.
Speaker 3: You could throw and actually I did it recently with
Speaker 3: all Trader Joe's components. So we had couscouse grilled chicken.
Speaker 3: I think I made it myself, but of course you
Speaker 3: could also get got routisserie chicken. You could do pre
Speaker 3: cooked chicken, breast, whatever you want, cucumbers, tomatoes, feta, cheese,
Speaker 3: they're premds hat siki, sauce, olives, and then I toasted
Speaker 3: some peda and then just choose the components you like,
Speaker 3: put it in a bowl, delicious, healthy dinner. And then
Speaker 3: finally one that we very commonly at our house is
Speaker 3: like a rice and bean like bowl. They kind of
Speaker 3: like a make your own Chipotle style thing. So we'll
Speaker 3: have like rice, available beans, maybe some frozen corn that
Speaker 3: was heated up, salsa, cheese, avocado, sour cream and then
Speaker 3: whatever protein you want, maybe some leftover chicken or sliced
Speaker 3: up cooked sausages. My kids love this. We could probably
Speaker 3: serve this like every night for a year, and I
Speaker 3: don't even know if there would be complaints, so maybe
Speaker 3: for me. But yeah, those are three bowls, none of
Speaker 3: which require recipes, none of which are fussy, and depending
Speaker 3: on how selective your kids are, are going to please
Speaker 3: most palettes, maybe not all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well the plain rice could always get eaten, Yes.
Speaker 3: Plain rice, and maybe a little bit of plane beans
Speaker 3: or chicken like done.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'm gonna actually sing the praises of a rut.
Speaker 2: I gotta say there's nothing wrong with serving the same
Speaker 2: crowd pleasing meals over and over again.
Speaker 3: So don't call it a rut.
Speaker 2: Call it it like doing best of right routine, routine,
Speaker 2: it's greatest hits. Like, it's not a rut, especially if
Speaker 2: people can customize them, like taco night. Right, if you
Speaker 2: have people who want nothing on a taco, who just
Speaker 2: want a tortilla and some cut up cheese on the side,
Speaker 2: they could eat that. But there's also people who could
Speaker 2: put everything on their tacos and be happy with it,
Speaker 2: Like make your own pizza is another one that allows
Speaker 2: people at all different flavor levels of comfort to doctor
Speaker 2: it up as they might wish. We do a pasta
Speaker 2: night every week. Some people have sauce that is jazzed
Speaker 2: up with like a pre made sauce that's jazzed up
Speaker 2: with our own ingredients to our veggies and Italian sausage
Speaker 2: and things like that.
Speaker 3: Other people prefer.
Speaker 2: Plain marinara sauce, which can also be pulled out of
Speaker 2: the same jar before you put the rest in with
Speaker 2: the sausage. Some people like just butter or just cheese
Speaker 2: on their pasta or whatever. That is an option too,
Speaker 2: But you can sort of introduce variety by having a
Speaker 2: strategically takeout night in your week, so you can decide
Speaker 2: like Monday's pasta, Tuesday is tacos, Thursday is breakfast for
Speaker 2: dinner or pizza night, and then Wednesday is when you
Speaker 2: order in something different to make it feel a little
Speaker 2: bit less like a rut. And I think that could
Speaker 2: help make those crowd pleasing dinners feel like it's not
Speaker 2: just you're eating the exact same thing in the same
Speaker 2: order over and over again. It's like you are a
Speaker 2: couple nights a week to make it easy on yourself,
Speaker 2: and then you introduce variety when it makes sense to
Speaker 2: do so.
Speaker 3: Awesome. Well, now I have even more ideas.
Speaker 2: Excellent. Well, this has been best of both worlds. Sarah's
Speaker 2: interviewing doctor Rishma Shaw on family meals and family eating
Speaker 2: in general. We will be back next week with more
Speaker 2: on making work and life fit together.
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the
Speaker 3: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram,
Speaker 3: and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
Speaker 2: This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please
Speaker 2: join us next time for more on making work and
Speaker 2: life work together.